Future of Zaheer and Dinesh Mongia?
Southpaw
Dinesh Mongia 158* off 246 balls with 20 4s and a 6 for Leics vs. Essex
Wonder what the future holds for these consistent performers in FC
cricket, both still younger than 30.
It's striking that their equivalents on the fringe of the Indian team
are RP Singh and Suresh Raina, both recent U-19 players who have had
only 1-2 seasons of FC cricket. I agree that they have both done very
little wrong in their short FC/intl. careers. But I think in Aus they
will prefer the long-term FC pro in his late 20s, with a consistent
record, to the U-19 star with a single good FC season behind him.
-Samarth.
Geico Caveman
This ain't Australia.
I do not know what to say about Zaheer Khan. He just does not inspire
confidence. Has a tendency to completely lose it at times.
As to Dinesh Mongia, he failed the entire WC 2K3. Maybe he is Test material,
and could be a short term replacement for Tendulkar if the latter is
injured. However, given Yuvraj Singh's induction in place of Ganguly, and
Kaif's recent good Test performance (not ODI's folks, before you jump on
me), its hard to see how he pips Laxman for the sole remaining slot.
diivolunt
According to majority of Indian RSCers they are too old :-)
Pranshu [wearing blackarm band] Saxena
Jaidev
"Southpaw" <arb...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:1146687114.2...@i39g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
Dinesh Mongia utterly crapped many times and in the many chances he got. He
wouldnt have been selected for WC2003 if not for gangulys insecurity and
selfishness to blame NZ away series loss on Laxman, the scapegoat.
Jaidev
"diivolunt" <diiv...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:1146688161.3...@e56g2000cwe.googlegroups.com...
Have you ever checked Zaheers and Mongias average and pathetic performances
even after playing so many tests the former and ODIs.
Andrew Dunford
"Jaidev" <Jai...@Jaidev.com> wrote in message
news:44594aa2$0$14893$a826...@reader.corenews.com...
The India squad for the 2003 World Cup was selected part-way through the
one-day series in NZ, and before the series result had been decided. But
don't let facts get in the way of a good rant.
Andrew
Jaidev
"Andrew Dunford" <adun...@artifax.net> wrote in message
news:4bt33pF...@individual.net...
Dungford,
You should be feasting on cow dung instead of posting comments on rsc when
you dont know what the fuck you are talking about.
Jaidev
The cow dung you are feasting on for years seems to have had lot of affect
on your IQ and cricket knowledge.
http://content-usa.cricinfo.com/india/content/story/127532.html
And what exactly did that chaos throw up? Most prominently, VVS Laxman was
dropped from the Indian side for the World Cup in favour of Dinesh Mongia. I
am not going to believe that it was just his form and performance in New
Zealand that led to Laxman being axed. Had that been the case, Ganguly
himself should have been the first to go. The Indian captain's form has not
been inspiring at all, whereas Laxman can hardly be faulted; at the time of
the World Cup squad selection, Laxman had averaged 40.33 in his last 10
one-day games, including three half-centuries. In comparison, Mongia in his
last 10 one-dayers averages a meagre 16.44.
It must have been some crazy logic indeed that led the selectors to replace
a batsman averaging around 40 with one who averages a shade less than 17! My
own view is that Laxman has been singled out as the scapegoat for the
collective failure of the Indian team in New Zealand. I feel for Laxman, who
has been pivotal in Ganguly becoming one of the most successful Indian
captains. Neither Ganguly nor Wright would have been around now had it not
been for India's startling victory at Kolkata against Australia. But Laxman
need not live on that one big knock; he would have made it into the World
Cup squad on sheer merit, as the statistics reveal.
Jaidev
Dungford,
Do you feast on cow dung from all coutries or do you have some special
preferences and liking for cow dung from Australia.
Andrew Dunford
"Jaidev" <Jai...@Jaidev.com> wrote in message
Oh, it's you. I do wish you'd just call yourself something by which I could
easily identify you, such as "axe grinder" or perhaps "plonker".
> http://content-usa.cricinfo.com/india/content/story/127532.html
<snip article>
Nothing in that article changes the fact that the Indian team was chosen
after two matches of a seven-match series, thus Laxman could not have been
made a scapegoat for a series loss which hadn't yet happened.
Nobody would pretend that picking a World Cup squad which included Mongia
(not on tour) and dropped Laxman (on tour) in the middle of a trip was
ideal - clearly it was a messy and probably mismanaged situation. One can
only hope that sometime in the future - perhaps 50 years from now - you
somehow learn to live with the pain.
<snip>
Andrew
Jaidev
cow dung eating dungford,
I pity all the idiots on rsc who think you are knowledgeable about cricket.
You didnt tell me yet if you feast on cow dungs from all countries or if you
have some special preferences for Australian cow dung.
>> http://content-usa.cricinfo.com/india/content/story/127532.html
>
> <snip article>
>
> Nothing in that article changes the fact that the Indian team was chosen
> after two matches of a seven-match series, thus Laxman could not have been
> made a scapegoat for a series loss which hadn't yet happened.
You have as much maturity as a 2 yr old infant.
NZ beat the crap out of India in test series 2-0 and beat the shit out of
India 3-0 at that point and you think India would have won the OD series.
It doesnt matter if the OD series was over or not, ganguly made Laxman the
scapegoat for the NZ series loss and brought in Mongia who would have never
been a threat to his own position in the team.
> Nobody would pretend that picking a World Cup squad which included Mongia
> (not on tour) and dropped Laxman (on tour) in the middle of a trip was
> ideal - clearly it was a messy and probably mismanaged situation.
mismanaged situation ?..........Moron, it was a himalayan blunder and sheer
injustice to Laxman who had a 40+ average in the 10 ODIs prior to being
dropped from WC2003.
>One can
> only hope that sometime in the future - perhaps 50 years from now - you
> somehow learn to live with the pain.
>
> <snip>
>
> Andrew
May be you will keep quiet and dont cry for 50 years if the guy who raped
your wife gets acquitted by the jury. I had no idea you enjoy your wife
being raped.
By the way, which country cow dung you had for dinner today ?
Vinny
Newzealand brown washed India 2-0 in tests and were leading in OD series.
India was completely down in spirit and morale and you think the series was
not over as if a dispirited indian side would have come back and won the OD
series.
Are you stupid or what.
Andrew Dunford
"Jaidev" <Jai...@Jaidev.com> wrote in message
The Indian World Cup squad was announced after the second match of the odo
series. No, I didn't write that I thought India would have come back and
won the series - you made that up.
> It doesnt matter if the OD series was over or not, ganguly made Laxman the
> scapegoat for the NZ series loss and brought in Mongia who would have
never
> been a threat to his own position in the team.
So you've been saying for as long as anyone can remember. A point which I
haven't disputed, partly because I don't know whether it's true or not,
unlike you who doesn't know either but enjoys pretending he does.
I was simply pointing out that a team can't lose a seven-match series in two
matches, neither of which were lost by big margins. As for the rest of your
dribble, I'll put you back in the killfile now so you can continue arguing
with yourself.
<snip>
Andrew
Andrew Dunford
"Vinny" <Vi...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:4459882b$0$14938$a826...@reader.corenews.com...
In the first match, reduced NZ to 86/7 chasing 110. In the second, needed
73 to win off the final 14.1 overs with six wickets left, before collapsing.
Went on to win the fifth and sixth matches of the series. Not bad for a
side "completely down in spirit and morale".
> Are you stupid or what.
I'm not the one using the term 'brown washed' the wrong way around. NZ had
two part-Maori bowlers in Bond and Tuffey, but were not an especially
dark-skinned side.
Andrew
Jaidev
Cow dung eating Dungford,
If you dont think India would have come back and won the OD series then what
the fuck are you aruging about here.
>> It doesnt matter if the OD series was over or not, ganguly made Laxman
>> the
>> scapegoat for the NZ series loss and brought in Mongia who would have
> never
>> been a threat to his own position in the team.
>
> So you've been saying for as long as anyone can remember.
When did I say that before ?
>A point which I
> haven't disputed, partly because I don't know whether it's true or not,
> unlike you who doesn't know either but enjoys pretending he does.
Just because you are a low IQ idiot doesnt mean everybody else is.
> I was simply pointing out that a team can't lose a seven-match series in
> two
> matches, neither of which were lost by big margins.
Are you fucking blind ?
India lost the test series 2-0 and lost the first few ODIs fair and square.
Everybody in India were depressed at that stage of the series because of the
pathetic performance of Indian team and ganguly needed a scapegoat and found
one in laxman.
>As for the rest of your
> dribble, I'll put you back in the killfile now so you can continue arguing
> with yourself.
>
> <snip>
>
> Andrew
You did me a great favor. I dont have to waste my time arguing with a
complete idiot like you, a cow dung eating low IQ idiot.
Vinny
LoL......Have you even followed the series when it was played. You must be
suffering from Alzheimers or may be mad cow disease.
Satheesh
fate of Zaheer khan. He is no more than Srinath material who somehow
does not
know what he is doing. More than technique its clearly to do with the
thought
process / confidence. Maybe some mindwash (psycology what else :) )
might help.
Dinesh mongia should we even discuss abt this ? Not getting against
this lad
but I feel enough opportunities have been given. For first, I dont feel
any county
performance should be considered for u know the class of players / matches
being played nowadays. Let him play domestic / India A matches and prove
himself consistently. But I doubt the direction is 'him'
-Satheesh.
Mike Holmans
Satheesh wrote:
> Dinesh mongia should we even discuss abt this ? Not getting against
> this lad
> but I feel enough opportunities have been given. For first, I dont feel
> any county
> performance should be considered for u know the class of players / matches
> being played nowadays. Let him play domestic / India A matches and prove
> himself consistently. But I doubt the direction is 'him'
Since Indian domestic cricket is of a rather lower standard than county
cricket, this seems a rather strange way of asking him to "prove"
himself - somewhat like assessng someone's fitness to play Tests
against Australia on the basis of odos against Zimbabwe.
Cheers,
Mike
pgg...@optonline.net
conditions the top ten teams
say Mumbai, Railways,Tamil Nadu, UP,Baroda, Hyderabad,Punjab
,Maharashtra and Bengal would compare quite reasonably with their
counterparts in County Cricket.
I think there should be some cross fertilization, the top team of
each country should take part in a knockout tournament in a different
country. You have a knock out tournament in India between the
Zones(South,North,East and West and here you could introduce county
Champions or in the Ranji playoffs) similarly the ranji champions
should play knockouts in England. Only then would we able to guage how
good first class cricket in individual countries. Personally, I think
fc cricket in S.Africa,England,Pakistan and India are pretty
comparable,while Australia is a cut above and NZ,WI,SL a cut below.
Gopal
Andrew Dunford
"Mike Holmans" <mi...@jackalope.demon.co.uk> wrote in message
news:1146742260....@j73g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
Don't knock it - not everyone can be picky.
In 2002, Shane Bond proved his readiness to tour the West Indies after a
three-month lay-off with a stress fracture of foot by playing three club
matches in Darwin.
Andrew
Mike Holmans
If you think Australian f-c cricket is of a higher standard than county
cricket, why is it that 80% of Australian players who play county
cricket do worse in county cricket than at home (unlike the position 10
years ago, when 80% of them did better in England than at home)?
Remember that county cricket is littered with Test players from other
countries, which neither Australian nor Indian cricket have.
Cheers,
Mike
pgg...@optonline.net
in England? However, because of the full season content of county
cricket it is possible that in England ,some of the the top counties
will do better than the Ranji Champions in a knockout, but the proof
of the Rasagolla is in the eating. I hope we do see the Ranji champions
in England and vicy versy as they say in some environs in the Southern
US of A.
County Cricket has the money to employ Ozzies, Indians etc., while
in India at least the thieves and grave robbers in BCCI try to keep the
riches to themselves. And also, there are the idyllic English county
grounds, compared to dusty places such as Vadodra,Nagpur,Jaipur et al.
the choice that people make is logical but does not indicate better
quality.
Gopal
Mike Holmans
pgg...@optonline.net wrote:
> Why is it that Indian players at the fringes, eg., Mongia do quite well
> in England?
Because, as Samarth hinted, these people wouldn't be fringe players in
a sensible Indian setup which didn't consider a player well past it at
the age of 24. Matured players who can perform regularly, like Mongia,
are well worth having.
On the other hand, players like Yuseless and Kaif come over here at the
age of 22 and demonstrate that they are only capable of playing on flat
pitches where the ball doesn't move.
I'm sure that English counties will continue to be grateful for the
Indian selectors' idiotic fixation with immature players for many years
to come, though, as it makes it so much easier to recruit players who
will acrtualy be useful.
Cheers,
Mike
Southpaw
Satheesh wrote:
> World cup 2003 final first ball is all enough for everybody to decide
> fate of Zaheer khan.
One ball towards the end of what was a very successful WC for him, was
enough to judge a man's entire career on?
He is no more than Srinath material who somehow
> does not
> know what he is doing.
What is wrong with being Srinath material? Srinath was among the top
2-3 pacers we have produced in our history. At his peak, he once took
~100 wickets in 20 tests, which is world-class.
Are you sure that RP Singh is Srinath material BTW?
More than technique its clearly to do with the
> thought
> process / confidence. Maybe some mindwash (psycology what else :) )
> might help.
>
> Dinesh mongia should we even discuss abt this ? Not getting against
> this lad
> but I feel enough opportunities have been given. For first, I dont feel
Note that Aus gave test caps to Langer, Martyn and Hayden in the
early-to-mid-90s, after which they were dropped. They performed
consistently in FC cricket, including successful county stints, and
became world-beaters a decade later.
Mongia has perhaps gotten sufficient ODO chances. But hasn't been near
the test squad, while Yuvraj and Kaif, both with lower FC averages, are
regulars. With Ganguly gone, Laxman returning to old bad habits, and
Tendulkar injury-struck, is there still no place for Mongia in the
middle-order?
Even in ODOs, Venu Rao has not set the world alight. He has definitely
not cemented his spot for the WC next year. It wouldn't be a bad idea
to have Mongia as part of the rotation mix.
> any county
> performance should be considered for u know the class of players / matches
> being played nowadays. Let him play domestic / India A matches and prove
> himself consistently. But I doubt the direction is 'him'
How many domestic / India A matches have RP Singh and Raina proved
themselves consistently in? Mongia hit 148 for BP XI vs. touring South
Africans barely 1.5 years ago, after which he has not played any India
A or BP XI cricket. (Challengers excluded.) In the meanwhile, he has
posted many big 100s, even though his form has been somewhat patchy by
his FC standards. Still, he is a proven FC performer while guys like
Raina are raw even at FC level. (I always believed it's good to pick a
player after he has failed once in FC cricket and come back, so that
when he fails at international level, he knows what to do in order to
come back.)
As regards county performances, I have joked before that anyone who
does well in county cricket sucks royally for India immediately after.
And anyone who does worse than expected shines for India thereafter.
However in all seriousness, if not anything else, county performance
shows that the player is adaptable to conditions other than home
conditions. Do you know if Raina has what it takes to handle English
conditions in May? As I said earlier, part of Langer and Hayden's
comeback into the Aus side included county stints ca. '97-'98.
-Samarth.
Gafoor
> Why is it that Indian players at the fringes, eg., Mongia do quite
> well in England?
I thought Mongia did well in both Indian domestic cricket
& in county cricket. Not just in county cricket.
Satheesh
Not sure if you know how things happen here for a player to get selected.
Satheesh
If you want players like Dinesh Mongia, have fun.
Satheesh
>Satheesh wrote:
>
>
>>World cup 2003 final first ball is all enough for everybody to decide
>>fate of Zaheer khan.
>>
>>
>
>One ball towards the end of what was a very successful WC for him, was
>enough to judge a man's entire career on?
>
>
That was not the point. Its not a opinion based on one ball. Have you
heard of
tasting a grain of rice to gauge the entire pot. Have you got the essence ?
>He is no more than Srinath material who somehow
>
>
>>does not
>>know what he is doing.
>>
>>
>
>What is wrong with being Srinath material? Srinath was among the top
>2-3 pacers we have produced in our history. At his peak, he once took
>~100 wickets in 20 tests, which is world-class.
>
>Are you sure that RP Singh is Srinath material BTW?
>
>
Not sure if its the right way to compare RP Singh and Zaheer Khan for
the former is
not a replacement for the latter. When building a world class team you
dont look
at replacing a player who is not performing to the mark, rather you will
give the player
a chance if he has the potential. In the process yes somebody have to
loose out.
Definitely RPS has the content. Lets wait and see his consistency world
wide and decide
for who is.
BTW, for his experience and potential Srinath should have been more
successful.
Why do you want limit yourself to Indian history when analysing bowlers
especially pacers.
You are not going to play against yourself ?
>More than technique its clearly to do with the
>
>
>>thought
>>process / confidence. Maybe some mindwash (psycology what else :) )
>>might help.
>>
>>Dinesh mongia should we even discuss abt this ? Not getting against
>>this lad
>>but I feel enough opportunities have been given. For first, I dont feel
>>
>>
>
>Note that Aus gave test caps to Langer, Martyn and Hayden in the
>early-to-mid-90s, after which they were dropped. They performed
>consistently in FC cricket, including successful county stints, and
>became world-beaters a decade later.
>
>Mongia has perhaps gotten sufficient ODO chances. But hasn't been near
>the test squad, while Yuvraj and Kaif, both with lower FC averages, are
>regulars. With Ganguly gone, Laxman returning to old bad habits, and
>Tendulkar injury-struck, is there still no place for Mongia in the
>middle-order?
>
>Even in ODOs, Venu Rao has not set the world alight. He has definitely
>not cemented his spot for the WC next year. It wouldn't be a bad idea
>to have Mongia as part of the rotation mix.
>
>
>
Again you seem to have the buffoon strategy of replacing players.
Andrew Dunford
All Ganguly had to do was field first when he won the toss at Christchurch
and the series was very much alive.
Have you anything constructive to contribute?
Andrew
Vinny
If ganguly scored a double century in WC2003 finals, India would have won
the Word Cup
If Ponting got out to zero, India would have won WC2003
If your aunt has balls, she would have been your Uncle.
Do you know anything about cricket at all ?
LoL...
Jaidev
"Mike Holmans" <mi...@jackalope.demon.co.uk> wrote in message
news:1146742260....@j73g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
>
Dinesh Mongia got plenty of chances and everytime he fucked it up. What are
you complaining about.
Jaidev
"Gafoor" <rro...@bigfoot.com> wrote in message
news:4buev6F...@individual.net...
> pgg...@optonline.net wrote:
>> Why is it that Indian players at the fringes, eg., Mongia do quite
>> well in England?
>
> I thought Mongia did well in both Indian domestic cricket
> & in county cricket. Not just in county cricket.
Dude
Mongia got plenty of chances and everytime he fucked it up and he has
himself to blame. This is what Mohinder Amarnath said about his own
statemate Dinesh Mongia.
http://groups.google.co.in/group/rec.sport.cricket/msg/f82de314378ed84b
Jaidev
>
> Satheesh wrote:
>> World cup 2003 final first ball is all enough for everybody to decide
>> fate of Zaheer khan.
>
> One ball towards the end of what was a very successful WC for him, was
> enough to judge a man's entire career on?
>
> He is no more than Srinath material who somehow
>> does not
>> know what he is doing.
>
> What is wrong with being Srinath material? Srinath was among the top
> 2-3 pacers we have produced in our history. At his peak, he once took
> ~100 wickets in 20 tests, which is world-class.
>
> Are you sure that RP Singh is Srinath material BTW?
>
> More than technique its clearly to do with the
>> thought
>> process / confidence. Maybe some mindwash (psycology what else :) )
>> might help.
>>
>> Dinesh mongia should we even discuss abt this ? Not getting against
>> this lad
>> but I feel enough opportunities have been given. For first, I dont feel
>
> Note that Aus gave test caps to Langer, Martyn and Hayden in the
> early-to-mid-90s, after which they were dropped. They performed
> consistently in FC cricket, including successful county stints, and
> became world-beaters a decade later.
You cant compare Dinesh Mongia with Hayden and Langer. Australian situation
is different from Indian situation.
> Mongia has perhaps gotten sufficient ODO chances. But hasn't been near
> the test squad, while Yuvraj and Kaif, both with lower FC averages, are
> regulars. With Ganguly gone, Laxman returning to old bad habits, and
> Tendulkar injury-struck, is there still no place for Mongia in the
> middle-order?
There were no middle order places in the Indian test team available with
Sehwag, Ganguly, Sachin, Dravid, Laxman and Yuvraj cementing their places.
Yuvraj excelled and forced his way back into the test team in place of
Laxman and Raina is waiting in the wings with some excellent performances in
the ODs. Chappell is looking to fill the team with young guns and Mongia
wont even be a consideration in Chappell scheme of things.
> Even in ODOs, Venu Rao has not set the world alight. He has definitely
> not cemented his spot for the WC next year. It wouldn't be a bad idea
> to have Mongia as part of the rotation mix.
Mongia got three chances in ODs and every time he screwed up big time and
his only notable performance is a century against world champion Zimbabwe.
Mongia is an over rated batsman, technically weak, not in the same league as
Laxman, Dravid or Sachin.
Venu Rao impressed Chappell with his performance in Challengers though I
think Venu Rao is nowhere near in class and talent of Laxman. But he is
definitely worth grooming for tests since he had 50+ average in IIndian
domestics and has been a consistent performer compared to Dinesh Mongia.
>> any county
>> performance should be considered for u know the class of players /
>> matches
>> being played nowadays. Let him play domestic / India A matches and prove
>> himself consistently. But I doubt the direction is 'him'
>
> How many domestic / India A matches have RP Singh and Raina proved
> themselves consistently in? Mongia hit 148 for BP XI vs. touring South
> Africans barely 1.5 years ago, after which he has not played any India
> A or BP XI cricket. (Challengers excluded.) In the meanwhile, he has
> posted many big 100s, even though his form has been somewhat patchy by
> his FC standards. Still, he is a proven FC performer while guys like
> Raina are raw even at FC level. (I always believed it's good to pick a
> player after he has failed once in FC cricket and come back, so that
> when he fails at international level, he knows what to do in order to
> come back.)
Why do you think your opinion should matter to Chappell and the selectors.
> As regards county performances, I have joked before that anyone who
> does well in county cricket sucks royally for India immediately after.
> And anyone who does worse than expected shines for India thereafter.
> However in all seriousness, if not anything else, county performance
> shows that the player is adaptable to conditions other than home
> conditions. Do you know if Raina has what it takes to handle English
> conditions in May?
Mongia couldnt even handle OD teams on Indian pitches.
Besides whats the problem with you guys not able to comprehend the scores,
performances and why Challengers were played.
In the Challengers trophy when Indian team was selected Laxman, Raina,
Uthappa and Venu Rao OUTPERFORMED Dinesh Mongia by miles.
Case closed.
I cant believe dudes here are even arguing about Dinesh Mongias
non-selection. Sheesh......
Jaidev
Cow dung eating Dungford thinks memorizing scores and names of cricketers
makes him knowledgeable about cricket.
Dungford is sure suffering from mad cow disease.
Roflmao
Yuk Tang
> news:4459685d$0$14874$a826...@reader.corenews.com...
>>
>> of affect on your IQ and cricket knowledge.
>
> Oh, it's you. I do wish you'd just call yourself something by
> which I could easily identify you, such as "axe grinder" or
> perhaps "plonker".
Is this Shridhar?
--
Cheers, ymt.
2PacAllypse
he's not good enough.
sdavmor
> Mongia averages just a tick under 50 for FC cricket, how can you
> say he's not good enough.
Even if he's really not good enough to play at a test level on
sub-continental pitches, surely he should be in the next touring
party when India visits England. And any other place that can
offer swinging seamer-exploitable conditions.
--
Cheers,
SDM -- a 21st century schizoid man
Systems Theory internet music project links:
soundclick <www.soundclick.com/systemstheory>
garageband <http://www.garageband.com/artist/systemstheory>
"Soundtracks For Imaginary Movies" CD released Dec 2004
"Codetalkers" CD coming very soon in 2006
NP: nothing
Numero Uno
>> Why is it that Indian players at the fringes, eg., Mongia do quite
>> well in England?
>
> I thought Mongia did well in both Indian domestic cricket
> & in county cricket. Not just in county cricket.
>
deserved a chance in place of Kaif.
prasen9
Really, is Mongia that much older than Powar?
>
> > Even in ODOs, Venu Rao has not set the world alight. He has definitely
> > not cemented his spot for the WC next year. It wouldn't be a bad idea
> > to have Mongia as part of the rotation mix.
>
>
> Mongia got three chances in ODs and every time he screwed up big time and
> his only notable performance is a century against world champion Zimbabwe.
>
> Mongia is an over rated batsman, technically weak, not in the same league as
> Laxman, Dravid or Sachin.
>
> Venu Rao impressed Chappell with his performance in Challengers though I
> think Venu Rao is nowhere near in class and talent of Laxman. But he is
> definitely worth grooming for tests since he had 50+ average in IIndian
> domestics and has been a consistent performer compared to Dinesh Mongia.
>
>
Rao may be a good test player, but he is too slow for ODIs.
>
> >> any county
> >> performance should be considered for u know the class of players /
> >> matches
> >> being played nowadays. Let him play domestic / India A matches and prove
> >> himself consistently. But I doubt the direction is 'him'
> >
> > How many domestic / India A matches have RP Singh and Raina proved
> > themselves consistently in? Mongia hit 148 for BP XI vs. touring South
> > Africans barely 1.5 years ago, after which he has not played any India
> > A or BP XI cricket. (Challengers excluded.) In the meanwhile, he has
> > posted many big 100s, even though his form has been somewhat patchy by
> > his FC standards. Still, he is a proven FC performer while guys like
> > Raina are raw even at FC level. (I always believed it's good to pick a
> > player after he has failed once in FC cricket and come back, so that
> > when he fails at international level, he knows what to do in order to
> > come back.)
>
>
>
> Why do you think your opinion should matter to Chappell and the selectors.
>
>
>
> > As regards county performances, I have joked before that anyone who
> > does well in county cricket sucks royally for India immediately after.
> > And anyone who does worse than expected shines for India thereafter.
> > However in all seriousness, if not anything else, county performance
> > shows that the player is adaptable to conditions other than home
> > conditions. Do you know if Raina has what it takes to handle English
> > conditions in May?
>
>
>
>
> Mongia couldnt even handle OD teams on Indian pitches.
>
And Rao cannot handle OD teams on any pitches, inside or outside India.
Choose him for his consistency?
> Besides whats the problem with you guys not able to comprehend the scores,
> performances and why Challengers were played.
>
> In the Challengers trophy when Indian team was selected Laxman, Raina,
> Uthappa and Venu Rao OUTPERFORMED Dinesh Mongia by miles.
>
> Case closed.
>
You know what, let us do away with all domestics. Let us just hold a
challenger
trophy and in the interest of time, instead of 2-3 matches per side,
let us make
it 1 10 over match per side. Then, whoever does well in those 10
overs, let us
make them permanent members of the team --- not only for one year but
for
2 or maybe even 5 years. Such are the importance of the challengers.
The shorter
we make them, the more accurate the implications, statistical
significance be
damned. Not only is the case closed for this year, let us just close
it for 5 years.
Sorry for the bad memory. What did Venu Rao do to deserve being picked
over
Mongia in the challengers? Can someone remind me?
He royally contributed to India's loss against
Pakistan A by scoring at less than 70% SR just to have a high total
against his
name. This is unacceptable while chasing 280+. He has been hopeless
in the
matches he has played and rather slow at that. He caused the required
run rate
to go up and up until the others could not salvage anything at the end.
Reminds me of Badani playing for averages in the Challengers for which
he was
chastised. Will Rao be? Or is his slow batting in the grey area?
> I cant believe dudes here are even arguing about Dinesh Mongias
> non-selection. Sheesh......
Okay, I would prefer Laxman above Mongia, but other than that, I do not
know
who else has staked a claim. Certainly not Rao.
-pm
Southpaw
prasen9 wrote:
<snip>
> Okay, I would prefer Laxman above Mongia, but other than that, I do not
> know
> who else has staked a claim. Certainly not Rao.
VVSL averages 34 in List A cricket in 156 games, Dinesh Mongia averages
36 in List A cricket in 173 games, and Venu Rao averages 41 in List A
cricket in 90 games.
Mongia averages < 25 with the ball as an underrated part-time spinner
in List A cricket. Of the three, Laxman is oldest, quite comfortably
the worst fielder, and cannot contribute in bowling.
-Samarth.
>
> -pm
prasen9
All that is fine. What is Venu's SR? From what his international
matches
and A-team exploits, it seems he is unable to rotate the strike.
There are already YS and VS who can bowl. We have an all-rounder in
Pathan (and Dhoni allows us to play 5 bowlers). Imho, the bowling
equation where Mongia is favored is negligible. He would be the 8th
bowler,
if India has to use him, India is most likely going to lose the match.
Now, the question is on the average does Dinesh Mongia save 4-5 more
runs than VVSL? (You need to compare DM's ODI record with VVSLs,
not their List A records because both have played enough ODI matches
and if I recall correctly, DM's averages in the 27s and VVSL in the
31s.)
The chapter is still open wrt VR, but from the little international
matches
he has played, he seems too slow.
Most of the slower batsmen have gone from the Indian team except Dravid
who has learnt to improvise. We cannot afford another batsman who
bats at 4rpo, piles up the RRR and we lose a lot of wickets chasing
8-10
runs in the last 15 overs. That used to be the regular plot in the
early
part of the last decade.
-pm
Jaidev
"prasen9" <pra...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:1146863181.2...@e56g2000cwe.googlegroups.com...
>> > not cemented his spot for the WC next year. It wouldn't be a bad idea
>> > to have Mongia as part of the rotation mix.
>>
>>
>> Mongia got three chances in ODs and every time he screwed up big time and
>> his only notable performance is a century against world champion
>> Zimbabwe.
>>
>> Mongia is an over rated batsman, technically weak, not in the same league
>> as
>> Laxman, Dravid or Sachin.
>>
>> Venu Rao impressed Chappell with his performance in Challengers though I
>> think Venu Rao is nowhere near in class and talent of Laxman. But he is
>> definitely worth grooming for tests since he had 50+ average in IIndian
>> domestics and has been a consistent performer compared to Dinesh Mongia.
>>
>>
>
> Rao may be a good test player, but he is too slow for ODIs
I said many times that Venu Rao is no where in class and talent compared to
laxman and laxman should be in ODs in place of Venu Rao but stupid Chappell
is obsessed with youngsters.
You just dont get it, do you. Dinesh Mongia was given three chances at three
different times including the WC2003 and he sucked all three times. Venu Rao
got in just recently and he is on his last legs.
>> Besides whats the problem with you guys not able to comprehend the
>> scores,
>> performances and why Challengers were played.
>>
>> In the Challengers trophy when Indian team was selected Laxman, Raina,
>> Uthappa and Venu Rao OUTPERFORMED Dinesh Mongia by miles.
>>
>> Case closed.
>>
>
> You know what, let us do away with all domestics. Let us just hold a
> challenger
> trophy and in the interest of time, instead of 2-3 matches per side,
> let us make
> it 1 10 over match per side. Then, whoever does well in those 10
> overs, let us
> make them permanent members of the team --- not only for one year but
> for
> 2 or maybe even 5 years. Such are the importance of the challengers.
> The shorter
> we make them, the more accurate the implications, statistical
> significance be
> damned. Not only is the case closed for this year, let us just close
> it for 5 years.
Your sarcasm failed. These things happened all the time even in the past.
Some players got picked based on their performances in one or two matches
prior to the team selection. Kaif, Dinesh Mongia, Raina, Munaf, SreeSanth,
RP Singh, Pathan, Amay Khurasia and plenty of others in the past were such
beneficiaries.
> Sorry for the bad memory. What did Venu Rao do to deserve being picked
> over
> Mongia in the challengers? Can someone remind me?
Go to cricinfo archives and search for challengers scorecards.
> He royally contributed to India's loss against
> Pakistan A by scoring at less than 70% SR just to have a high total
> against his
> name.
Venu Rao topscored with 61 not out in his last innings in a low scoring
match in UAE vs Pak
Are matches against Pakistan A international matches ?
>> I cant believe dudes here are even arguing about Dinesh Mongias
>> non-selection. Sheesh......
>
> Okay, I would prefer Laxman above Mongia, but other than that, I do not
> know
> who else has staked a claim. Certainly not Rao.
>
> -pm
Dinesh Mongia is history and should not have ever been selected for WC2003.
This stupid fella scored two consecutive boundaries in WC2003 finals against
Aus and burst out with loug laughter as if he made a mockery of Australian
bowling. Go watch the video.
Jaidev
>
> prasen9 wrote:
>
> <snip>
>
>> Okay, I would prefer Laxman above Mongia, but other than that, I do not
>> know
>> who else has staked a claim. Certainly not Rao.
>
> VVSL averages 34 in List A cricket in 156 games, Dinesh Mongia averages
> 36 in List A cricket in 173 games, and Venu Rao averages 41 in List A
> cricket in 90 games.
Domestic matches are irrelevant when comparing Lax with Dinesh Mongia
because they both played reasonable no.of ODIs.
Mongia is nowhere near Laxman if you consider the runs scored against
quality opposition. Laxman has 4 centuries against Aus and averaged 46+
which is even better than Dravid, Sehwag and Sachins averages against Aus.
Laxman scored a century and won the MoM in the DECIDER of the 2004 OD series
in Pakistan and it was the FIRST EVER Indian OD series win in pakistan in
Indian cricket history.
Mongias only notalbe performance was a century against zimabawe and a couple
of other 50+ against SA.
http://groups.google.co.in/group/rec.sport.cricket/msg/f82de314378ed84b
> Mongia averages < 25 with the ball as an underrated part-time spinner
> in List A cricket. Of the three, Laxman is oldest, quite comfortably
> the worst fielder, and cannot contribute in bowling.
>
> -Samarth.
Dinesh Mongias bowling skills are irelevant since the indian team already
has Sachin, Yuvraj and Sehwag to contribute with the ball.
prasen9
I never mentioned that Dinesh Mongia should be given chances. On the
contrary, complaining that Mongia cannot handle teams on Indian pitches
and
bringing in someone who cannot handly anyone in any pitches is
ludicrous.
Like I said above, I would have had Laxman or maybe even
Dhawan/Uthappa.
Just because they happened does not make it right and does not anyway
make the "case closed". Even if it, it is a very much flawed case to
select
on the basis of 2-3 matches.
>
>
> > Sorry for the bad memory. What did Venu Rao do to deserve being picked
> > over
> > Mongia in the challengers? Can someone remind me?
>
>
>
> Go to cricinfo archives and search for challengers scorecards.
>
>
>
>
> > He royally contributed to India's loss against
> > Pakistan A by scoring at less than 70% SR just to have a high total
> > against his
> > name.
>
>
>
> Venu Rao topscored with 61 not out in his last innings in a low scoring
> match in UAE vs Pak
>
> Are matches against Pakistan A international matches ?
>
>
Sure, since he did that, let us make him the permanent member of the
team
for the next 5 years. Everyone will perform in one match in 10-15.
The guy
got to play 10 innings, (2no). While statistically not significant,
and he should
be given a few chances, he has been quite a failure. Even more than
the
amount of runs he scores, I am alarmed by how slow he bats. His SR is
the
worst among any batsman India has played in the last 5-10 years. His
batting
against Pak A today was a shame. It looked all he was interested in
was not
getting out himself so that he had some runs to show.
It resulted in an enormous increase in the RRO. A SR in the 60's on a
total
batting pitch is disastrous.
Jaidev
First of all Dinesh Mongia was not in the team and Venu Rao did not replace
Dinesh Mongia.
> Like I said above, I would have had Laxman or maybe even
> Dhawan/Uthappa.
Dhawan/Uthappa are openers and not middle order bats.
Dude it happened in the past and it will happen in the future also. If not
for those selections we wouldnt have Raina, Pathan, SreeSanth and Munaf in
the current team. Munaf got selected because of his sole performance against
England in the practice match.
>> > Sorry for the bad memory. What did Venu Rao do to deserve being picked
>> > over
>> > Mongia in the challengers? Can someone remind me?
>>
>>
>>
>> Go to cricinfo archives and search for challengers scorecards.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> > He royally contributed to India's loss against
>> > Pakistan A by scoring at less than 70% SR just to have a high total
>> > against his
>> > name.
>>
>>
>>
>> Venu Rao topscored with 61 not out in his last nings in a low scoring
>> match in UAE vs Pak
>>
>> Are matches against Pakistan A international matches ?
>>
>>
>
> Sure, since he did that, let us make him the permanent member of the
> team
> for the next 5 years.
Did anybody say he will be a permanent member for the next 5 years ?
Whats your point ?
>Everyone will perform in one match in 10-15.
> The guy
> got to play 10 innings, (2no). While statistically not significant,
> and he should
> be given a few chances, he has been quite a failure. Even more than
> the
> amount of runs he scores, I am alarmed by how slow he bats. His SR is
> the
> worst among any batsman India has played in the last 5-10 years. His
> batting
> against Pak A today was a shame. It looked all he was interested in
> was not
> getting out himself so that he had some runs to show.
> It resulted in an enormous increase in the RRO. A SR in the 60's on a
> total
> batting pitch is disastrous.
You didnt answer my question. Are these matches against Pak A team
considered "international ODs" ?
Heck mediocre useless kaif is still in the indian OD team even after his
disastrous last 10 ODs with sub 10 average.
prasen9
Jaidev wrote:
> > I never mentioned that Dinesh Mongia should be given chances. On the
> > contrary, complaining that Mongia cannot handle teams on Indian pitches
> > and
> > bringing in someone who cannot handly anyone in any pitches is
> > ludicrous.
>
>
>
> First of all Dinesh Mongia was not in the team and Venu Rao did not replace
> Dinesh Mongia.
>
So? I did not say DM needs to be in the team or VR replaced him. Your
reply is thus irrelevant. I said VR does not deserve a place in the
team.
>
>
> > Like I said above, I would have had Laxman or maybe even
> > Dhawan/Uthappa.
>
>
>
> Dhawan/Uthappa are openers and not middle order bats.
>
>
In ODIs, it does not matter. VS is a middle ordr bat who opens, as are
SRT, SCG, RSD. Mike Hussey is an opener who bats in the middle order.
de Villers is an opener who bats in the middle orders. Dhawan/Uthappa
could easily bat at #3. If you see Dravid had opened, drop Rao, get
Dhawan/Uthappa or someone else and you have the solution. So,
your argument above is hogwash.
>
> >> > let us make
> >> > it 1 10 over match per side. Then, whoever does well in those 10
> >> > overs, let us
> >> > make them permanent members of the team --- not only for one year but
> >> > for
> >> > 2 or maybe even 5 years. Such are the importance of the challengers.
> >> > The shorter
> >> > we make them, the more accurate the implications, statistical
> >> > significance be
> >> > damned. Not only is the case closed for this year, let us just close
> >> > it for 5 years.
> >>
> >>
> >
> > Just because they happened does not make it right and does not anyway
> > make the "case closed". Even if it, it is a very much flawed case to
> > select
> > on the basis of 2-3 matches.
>
>
>
> Dude it happened in the past and it will happen in the future also. If not
> for those selections we wouldnt have Raina, Pathan, SreeSanth and Munaf in
> the current team. Munaf got selected because of his sole performance against
> England in the practice match.
>
Just becaue it happened, it does not make it right.
Excuse me? Munaf got selected because of consistent performances in
the
last 2-3 years. Raina got selected because of his great performance in
the
last 1-2 years of Ranji and u-19. Sreesanth also performed for at
least 2 years.
Irfan got in because of his U-19 exploits and I think A-team exploits.
He
did also shine in the Ranjis. None of them were selected on the basis
of
1-2 matches, Uthappa was, to some extent Sreesanth was, but not the
others. Rao has the performance in domestics too.
>
>
>
>
> >> > Sorry for the bad memory. What did Venu Rao do to deserve being picked
> >> > over
>
> >>
> >
> > Sure, since he did that, let us make him the permanent member of the
> > team
> > for the next 5 years.
>
>
>
> Did anybody say he will be a permanent member for the next 5 years ?
>
> Whats your point ?
>
The point is that he has a single score of 61 is irrelevant. What we
need
to see is his entire record of 25 runs/innings at less than 4 runs/over
on Indian pitches. Dismal.
>
>
> >Everyone will perform in one match in 10-15.
> > The guy
> > got to play 10 innings, (2no). While statistically not significant,
> > and he should
> > be given a few chances, he has been quite a failure. Even more than
> > the
> > amount of runs he scores, I am alarmed by how slow he bats. His SR is
> > the
> > worst among any batsman India has played in the last 5-10 years. His
> > batting
> > against Pak A today was a shame. It looked all he was interested in
> > was not
> > getting out himself so that he had some runs to show.
> > It resulted in an enormous increase in the RRO. A SR in the 60's on a
> > total
> > batting pitch is disastrous.
>
>
>
>
> You didnt answer my question. Are these matches against Pak A team
> considered "international ODs" ?
>
No, they are not. However, his SR is also in the 60s in the 10 ODIs he
batted in.
The A-team matches should be considered somewhere between the
domestics and ODIs (well the ones against Pak-A). Even there, the
evidence
of his slow batting stands.
> Heck mediocre useless kaif is still in the indian OD team even after his
> disastrous last 10 ODs with sub 10 average.
Still mediocre useless Kaif has an average substantially better than
Rao's (again I understand Rao's sample size is small). So Rao is worse
than mediocre and doubly useless (he is not as good a fielder), at
least on evidence in the ODIs so far.
-pm
Gafoor
> Excuse me? Munaf got selected because of consistent performances in
> the
> last 2-3 years. Raina got selected because of his great performance
> in the
> last 1-2 years of Ranji and u-19. Sreesanth also performed for at
> least 2 years.
Hmm.
Sreesanth - FC stats
25 matches 71 wkts @ 31.74
2004-05 12 wkts @ 28.25
2003-04 11 wkts @ 47.00
2002-03 33 wkts @ 28.96
Not particularly impressive, I bet you could
quite a few people who did better.
prasen9
Yes, I did say (I think) in the part you snipped off that Sreesanth and
Uthappa
may have been in because of the challengers. In the case of Sreesanth,
I think, more than his numbers or 1-2 matches, it was the evidence of
the eyes
that the MRF people, Lillee, Shekhar etc.'s recommendations that helped
him
in, and because allegedly he was one of the three "pacy" bowlers.
-pm
Jaidev
>
> Jaidev wrote:
>
>
>> > I never mentioned that Dinesh Mongia should be given chances. On the
>> > contrary, complaining that Mongia cannot handle teams on Indian pitches
>> > and
>> > bringing in someone who cannot handly anyone in any pitches is
>> > ludicrous.
>>
>>
>>
>> First of all Dinesh Mongia was not in the team and Venu Rao did not
>> replace
>> Dinesh Mongia.
>>
>
> So? I did not say DM needs to be in the team or VR replaced him. Your
> reply is thus irrelevant. I said VR does not deserve a place in the
> team.
Venu Rao did have 50+ average in domestics and was tried out in the national
team. I dont see any problem, do you ?
He didnt perform to the expectations and he is hanging on in the team by a
very thin margin which is perfectly reasonable. Another two failures and he
will be banished to domestics for a couple of years.
>> > Like I said above, I would have had Laxman or maybe even
>> > Dhawan/Uthappa.
>>
>>
>>
>> Dhawan/Uthappa are openers and not middle order bats.
>>
>>
>
> In ODIs, it does not matter. VS is a middle ordr bat who opens, as are
> SRT, SCG, RSD. Mike Hussey is an opener who bats in the middle order.
> de Villers is an opener who bats in the middle orders. Dhawan/Uthappa
> could easily bat at #3. If you see Dravid had opened, drop Rao, get
> Dhawan/Uthappa or someone else and you have the solution. So,
> your argument above is hogwash.
Not every player can adapt to different positions.
Applying the same logic, well Venu Raos consistent performances in domestics
and challengers got him into the team. What are you complaining about then ?
>Raina got selected because of his great performance in
> the
> last 1-2 years of Ranji and u-19. Sreesanth also performed for at
> least 2 years.
> Irfan got in because of his U-19 exploits and I think A-team exploits.
> He
> did also shine in the Ranjis. None of them were selected on the basis
> of
> 1-2 matches, Uthappa was, to some extent Sreesanth was, but not the
> others. Rao has the performance in domestics too.
Dude you are arguing with circular logic. You clearly said Rao is selected
for his performances in domestics and then turn around and complain about
it.
Venu performed well in the previous A teams.
>> Heck mediocre useless kaif is still in the indian OD team even after his
>> disastrous last 10 ODs with sub 10 average.
>
> Still mediocre useless Kaif has an average substantially better than
> Rao's (again I understand Rao's sample size is small).
Sample size is too small.
>So Rao is worse
> than mediocre and doubly useless (he is not as good a fielder), at
> least on evidence in the ODIs so far.
>
> -pm
Kaif is the most over rated batsman and over rated fielder in international
cricket. His ground fielding is excellent but his catching is at best good.
By your criteria and logic, you should be first arguing about dropping Kaif
from the team since kaif averaged less than 10 in his last 10 ODs.
prasen9
Jaidev wrote:
> > So? I did not say DM needs to be in the team or VR replaced him. Your
> > reply is thus irrelevant. I said VR does not deserve a place in the
> > team.
>
>
>
>
> Venu Rao did have 50+ average in domestics and was tried out in the national
> team. I dont see any problem, do you ?
>
I do not mind Rao to be in line for the test team. Rao's List A
average is also
good, but I do not know of his strike rate. I suspect it is rather
slow from the
evidence I have seen. I do not think we are doing him a favor by
thrusting him
in the ODI team.
> He didnt perform to the expectations and he is hanging on in the team by a
> very thin margin which is perfectly reasonable. Another two failures and he
> will be banished to domestics for a couple of years.
>
I would give him 5 more games.
>
>
> >> > Like I said above, I would have had Laxman or maybe even
> >> > Dhawan/Uthappa.
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> Dhawan/Uthappa are openers and not middle order bats.
> >>
> >>
> >
> > In ODIs, it does not matter. VS is a middle ordr bat who opens, as are
> > SRT, SCG, RSD. Mike Hussey is an opener who bats in the middle order.
> > de Villers is an opener who bats in the middle orders. Dhawan/Uthappa
> > could easily bat at #3. If you see Dravid had opened, drop Rao, get
> > Dhawan/Uthappa or someone else and you have the solution. So,
> > your argument above is hogwash.
>
>
>
> Not every player can adapt to different positions.
>
What makes you think Dhawan/Uthappa cannot bat at #3? Besides, they do
not
have to adapt to different positions. We could have opened with Dhawan
and
Sehwag, and Dravid in the MO with Rao out of the team.
His slow SR.
>10 average.
> >
> > Still mediocre useless Kaif has an average substantially better than
> > Rao's (again I understand Rao's sample size is small).
>
>
> Sample size is too small.
>
>
>
>
> >So Rao is worse
> > than mediocre and doubly useless (he is not as good a fielder), at
> > least on evidence in the ODIs so far.
> >
> > -pm
>
>
>
> Kaif is the most over rated batsman and over rated fielder in international
> cricket. His ground fielding is excellent but his catching is at best good.
>
> By your criteria and logic, you should be first arguing about dropping Kaif
> from the team since kaif averaged less than 10 in his last 10 ODs.
I would not mind dropping Kaif and having him play the domestics to get
back
his form.
-pm
Gilly's Danda
Nope. It's the pillock who posted as abcd, squarecut, coverdrive,
Sanjay, sirius, Sachin Tendulkar, etc. The same one who flooded the
newsgroup with religiously motivated abuse for several months in
2003-04.
A
Jaidev
"Gilly's Danda" <finally...@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:1147047938.4...@j73g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
And you are the notorious rsc transvestite kathyb.
Jaidev
His strike rate is not much worse than kaifs.
Form ?
What kind of form ?
Once in a blue moon performance against average teams ?
Kaif does not belong in the international cricket arena. Period.
He played 113 ODis with 32 average and still he is unpredictable,
inconsistent and unreliable.
His averages against
Aus is 5.0
Eng is 23.83
Pak is 21.7
SL is 28.55
WI is 30.85
SA is 42.4
NZ is 45.11
Just for comparison kaifs average against NZ in NZ is 7.85 in 7 matches.
We have to beat Aus, Pak and SA the powerful teams to win WC2007 with NZ
being the dark horse and WI with home field advantage.
Why is this overrated kaif in the team to WI ?
copronymus
<finally...@gmail.com> wrote:
Oh no. I had forgotten that I was a white xtian pig.
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