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Why is England so much hung up on playing second rate Indian spinners
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RSX
Nov 12, 2012, 7:16:44 AM11/12/12
to
Cook says "We would have liked to have faced more spin in the matches
but that hasn't happened.". More here:
http://www.espncricinfo.com/india-v-england-2012/content/current/story/590862.html
Why so much importance to playing second and third level Indian
spinners? Don't the England players get practice against Swan
(supposedly one of the best spinners around) in the county matches?
Would playing a few overs against Mishra in the middle so much better
than playing Swan in the nets? Some English posters here can throw
light on this mentality. Is the English team psychology making it
worse for their batsmen than necessary?
but that hasn't happened.". More here:
http://www.espncricinfo.com/india-v-england-2012/content/current/story/590862.html
Why so much importance to playing second and third level Indian
spinners? Don't the England players get practice against Swan
(supposedly one of the best spinners around) in the county matches?
Would playing a few overs against Mishra in the middle so much better
than playing Swan in the nets? Some English posters here can throw
light on this mentality. Is the English team psychology making it
worse for their batsmen than necessary?
Mike Holmans
Nov 12, 2012, 8:27:49 AM11/12/12
to
On Mon, 12 Nov 2012 04:16:44 -0800 (PST), RSX <rgop...@netscape.net>
tapped the keyboard and brought forth:
As always, consider why he made the comment.
Do you think he came out at a press conference and said this as part
of his opening remarks, or was it in response to a question from a
press person along the lines of "How can you say you're properly
prepared when you haven't faced any decent spin in the warm-up
matches?"
The phrasing of Cook's answer suggests to me that he isn't too
bothered. Of course it would have been more useful to face some
top-class spin in a competitive warm-up game - it would be utterly
idiotic to deny that - but it didn't happen. It would also have been
nice if Finn and Broad hadn't had injuries, but that didn't happen
either. Lots of things would be nice: some of them happen, some don't.
The press are clearly completely obsessed by how England will do
against spin and take any small thing and blow it up to
mega-proportions. But don't mistake the fact that the England captain
has to make some kind of response to silly press questions for the
England captain being on an almighty whinge-crusade. Just be thankful
they seem to have given up turning every press conference into an
inquest into l'affaire KP.
Cheers,
Mike
--
tapped the keyboard and brought forth:
Do you think he came out at a press conference and said this as part
of his opening remarks, or was it in response to a question from a
press person along the lines of "How can you say you're properly
prepared when you haven't faced any decent spin in the warm-up
matches?"
The phrasing of Cook's answer suggests to me that he isn't too
bothered. Of course it would have been more useful to face some
top-class spin in a competitive warm-up game - it would be utterly
idiotic to deny that - but it didn't happen. It would also have been
nice if Finn and Broad hadn't had injuries, but that didn't happen
either. Lots of things would be nice: some of them happen, some don't.
The press are clearly completely obsessed by how England will do
against spin and take any small thing and blow it up to
mega-proportions. But don't mistake the fact that the England captain
has to make some kind of response to silly press questions for the
England captain being on an almighty whinge-crusade. Just be thankful
they seem to have given up turning every press conference into an
inquest into l'affaire KP.
Cheers,
Mike
--
RSX
Nov 12, 2012, 1:17:21 PM11/12/12
to
On Nov 12, 6:28 pm, Mike Holmans <m...@jackalope.demon.co.uk> wrote:
> On Mon, 12 Nov 2012 04:16:44 -0800 (PST), RSX <rgopal...@netscape.net>
such stories with Vaughn and Lloyd starting the discussion on the spin
bowlers with their criticism of team selection for the opening match.
That is why I thought of asking here.
> The phrasing of Cook's answer suggests to me that he isn't too
> bothered. Of course it would have been more useful to face some
> top-class spin in a competitive warm-up game - it would be utterly
> idiotic to deny that - but it didn't happen. It would also have been
> nice if Finn and Broad hadn't had injuries, but that didn't happen
> either. Lots of things would be nice: some of them happen, some don't.
>
> The press are clearly completely obsessed by how England will do
> against spin and take any small thing and blow it up to
> mega-proportions. But don't mistake the fact that the England captain
> has to make some kind of response to silly press questions for the
> England captain being on an almighty whinge-crusade. Just be thankful
> they seem to have given up turning every press conference into an
> inquest into l'affaire KP.
Fair enough. Cook has managed to avoid sounding like a whiner so far.
Good for him. Do you think England would be able to handle the
spinners better this time? I am glad that KP is in the team. He will
definitely make the matches more interesting.
>
> Cheers,
>
> Mike
>
> --
> On Mon, 12 Nov 2012 04:16:44 -0800 (PST), RSX <rgopal...@netscape.net>
> tapped the keyboard and brought forth:
>
> >Cook says "We would have liked to have faced more spin in the matches
> >but that hasn't happened.". More here:
> >http://www.espncricinfo.com/india-v-england-2012/content/current/stor...
>
> >Cook says "We would have liked to have faced more spin in the matches
> >but that hasn't happened.". More here:
> >Why so much importance to playing second and third level Indian
> >spinners? Don't the England players get practice against Swan
> >(supposedly one of the best spinners around) in the county matches?
> >Would playing a few overs against Mishra in the middle so much better
> >than playing Swan in the nets? Some English posters here can throw
> >light on this mentality. Is the English team psychology making it
> >worse for their batsmen than necessary?
>
> As always, consider why he made the comment.
>
> Do you think he came out at a press conference and said this as part
> of his opening remarks, or was it in response to a question from a
> press person along the lines of "How can you say you're properly
> prepared when you haven't faced any decent spin in the warm-up
> matches?"
>
Not clear from the cricinfo write up. However, this is one of many
> >spinners? Don't the England players get practice against Swan
> >(supposedly one of the best spinners around) in the county matches?
> >Would playing a few overs against Mishra in the middle so much better
> >than playing Swan in the nets? Some English posters here can throw
> >light on this mentality. Is the English team psychology making it
> >worse for their batsmen than necessary?
>
> As always, consider why he made the comment.
>
> Do you think he came out at a press conference and said this as part
> of his opening remarks, or was it in response to a question from a
> press person along the lines of "How can you say you're properly
> prepared when you haven't faced any decent spin in the warm-up
> matches?"
>
such stories with Vaughn and Lloyd starting the discussion on the spin
bowlers with their criticism of team selection for the opening match.
That is why I thought of asking here.
> The phrasing of Cook's answer suggests to me that he isn't too
> bothered. Of course it would have been more useful to face some
> top-class spin in a competitive warm-up game - it would be utterly
> idiotic to deny that - but it didn't happen. It would also have been
> nice if Finn and Broad hadn't had injuries, but that didn't happen
> either. Lots of things would be nice: some of them happen, some don't.
>
> The press are clearly completely obsessed by how England will do
> against spin and take any small thing and blow it up to
> mega-proportions. But don't mistake the fact that the England captain
> has to make some kind of response to silly press questions for the
> England captain being on an almighty whinge-crusade. Just be thankful
> they seem to have given up turning every press conference into an
> inquest into l'affaire KP.
Good for him. Do you think England would be able to handle the
spinners better this time? I am glad that KP is in the team. He will
definitely make the matches more interesting.
>
> Cheers,
>
> Mike
>
> --
Mike Holmans
Nov 12, 2012, 3:14:31 PM11/12/12
to
On Mon, 12 Nov 2012 10:17:21 -0800 (PST), RSX <rgop...@netscape.net>
It's not completely clear to me that England have a *major* problem
with spin bowlers who aren't as good as Saeed Ajmal. Ashwin's a good
bowler, no mistake, but he hasn't got Ajmal's skill or, most
importantly, variation. KP has a specific problem with Yuseless, which
is mainly that he wants to hit him out of the park every ball and even
Yuseless isn't so bad that you can do that with impunity.
So we'll see.
Cheers,
Mike
--
tapped the keyboard and brought forth:
with spin bowlers who aren't as good as Saeed Ajmal. Ashwin's a good
bowler, no mistake, but he hasn't got Ajmal's skill or, most
importantly, variation. KP has a specific problem with Yuseless, which
is mainly that he wants to hit him out of the park every ball and even
Yuseless isn't so bad that you can do that with impunity.
So we'll see.
Cheers,
Mike
--
John Hall
Nov 12, 2012, 3:33:02 PM11/12/12
to
In article
<1d3e7b47-e45c-48d7...@x9g2000pbe.googlegroups.com>,
out for their counties these days. Either they are playing in a Test or
ODI or preparing for one or being rested.
>Would playing a few overs against Mishra in the middle so much better
>than playing Swan in the nets?
Probably yes. The players reckon that there's a big difference between
batting in the middle and batting in a net. In a net there aren't any
close fielders, for one thing.
> Some English posters here can throw
>light on this mentality. Is the English team psychology making it
>worse for their batsmen than necessary?
Who can say?
--
John Hall
"The beatings will continue until morale improves."
Attributed to the Commander of Japan's Submarine Forces in WW2
<1d3e7b47-e45c-48d7...@x9g2000pbe.googlegroups.com>,
RSX <rgop...@netscape.net> writes:
>Cook says "We would have liked to have faced more spin in the matches
>but that hasn't happened.". More here:
>http://www.espncricinfo.com/india-v-england-2012/content/current/
>story/590862.html
>Why so much importance to playing second and third level Indian
>spinners? Don't the England players get practice against Swan
>(supposedly one of the best spinners around) in the county matches?
The short answer to that is "no", because England players hardly turn
>Cook says "We would have liked to have faced more spin in the matches
>but that hasn't happened.". More here:
>http://www.espncricinfo.com/india-v-england-2012/content/current/
>story/590862.html
>Why so much importance to playing second and third level Indian
>spinners? Don't the England players get practice against Swan
>(supposedly one of the best spinners around) in the county matches?
out for their counties these days. Either they are playing in a Test or
ODI or preparing for one or being rested.
>Would playing a few overs against Mishra in the middle so much better
>than playing Swan in the nets?
batting in the middle and batting in a net. In a net there aren't any
close fielders, for one thing.
> Some English posters here can throw
>light on this mentality. Is the English team psychology making it
>worse for their batsmen than necessary?
--
John Hall
"The beatings will continue until morale improves."
Attributed to the Commander of Japan's Submarine Forces in WW2
Andrew Dunford
Nov 12, 2012, 3:52:39 PM11/12/12
to
"Mike Holmans" <mi...@jackalope.demon.co.uk> wrote in message
news:fpl2a8hjig11npqjo...@4ax.com...
KP's list of left-armer spin opponents, including but not limited to
Vettori, Harris, Benn, Ryan Hinds, Razzak, Shakib, Doherty, Herath and
Rehman that would be much appreciated.
Andrew
Mike Holmans
Nov 12, 2012, 4:02:25 PM11/12/12
to
On Tue, 13 Nov 2012 09:52:39 +1300, "Andrew Dunford"
<adun...@artifax.net> tapped the keyboard and brought forth:
I don't have to. The only one we have to worry about at the moment is
Ojha. I'd note, though, that while it is true that Herath dismissed KP
once in the series in SL earlier this year, he had scored the little
matter of 151 in that innings before succumbing.
Cheers,
Mike
--
<adun...@artifax.net> tapped the keyboard and brought forth:
Ojha. I'd note, though, that while it is true that Herath dismissed KP
once in the series in SL earlier this year, he had scored the little
matter of 151 in that innings before succumbing.
Cheers,
Mike
--
Unknown
Nov 12, 2012, 5:07:32 PM11/12/12
to
On Mon, 12 Nov 2012 20:33:02 +0000, John Hall
<nospam...@jhall.co.uk> wrote:
>In article
><1d3e7b47-e45c-48d7...@x9g2000pbe.googlegroups.com>,
> RSX <rgop...@netscape.net> writes:
>>Cook says "We would have liked to have faced more spin in the matches
>>but that hasn't happened.". More here:
>>http://www.espncricinfo.com/india-v-england-2012/content/current/
>>story/590862.html
>>Why so much importance to playing second and third level Indian
>>spinners? Don't the England players get practice against Swan
>>(supposedly one of the best spinners around) in the county matches?
>
>The short answer to that is "no", because England players hardly turn
>out for their counties these days. Either they are playing in a Test or
>ODI or preparing for one or being rested.
>
>>Would playing a few overs against Mishra in the middle so much better
>>than playing Swan in the nets?
>
>Probably yes. The players reckon that there's a big difference between
>batting in the middle and batting in a net. In a net there aren't any
>close fielders, for one thing.
I our nets we set the bowling machine up, and the close fielders are
<nospam...@jhall.co.uk> wrote:
>In article
><1d3e7b47-e45c-48d7...@x9g2000pbe.googlegroups.com>,
> RSX <rgop...@netscape.net> writes:
>>Cook says "We would have liked to have faced more spin in the matches
>>but that hasn't happened.". More here:
>>http://www.espncricinfo.com/india-v-england-2012/content/current/
>>story/590862.html
>>Why so much importance to playing second and third level Indian
>>spinners? Don't the England players get practice against Swan
>>(supposedly one of the best spinners around) in the county matches?
>
>The short answer to that is "no", because England players hardly turn
>out for their counties these days. Either they are playing in a Test or
>ODI or preparing for one or being rested.
>
>>Would playing a few overs against Mishra in the middle so much better
>>than playing Swan in the nets?
>
>Probably yes. The players reckon that there's a big difference between
>batting in the middle and batting in a net. In a net there aren't any
>close fielders, for one thing.
allowed to catch 'one hand one bounce'. Slogs are banned. The batsmen
that get through un-caught go again without pads. Then those left go
again without pads and gloves. You can only score singles, the ones
that go past the fielders. Hit on the legs is always out. It's a kiddy
game, but the seniors have adapted it for training. Dunno if it works,
they all still look fat'n'ugly to me.
max.it
Andrew Dunford
Nov 12, 2012, 7:22:12 PM11/12/12
to
news:gno2a8hslp8cuhup1...@4ax.com...
Sure, but if we add in the dismissals at Cardiff and Lord's in 2011 the
situation looks rather different.
That said, Pietersen does have a higher average for innings in which he was
dismissed by a left-arm spinner than his career average, despite the bias
caused by the former list not containing any not outs. It's also
potentially interesting that he wasn't dismissed by a left-arm spinner until
his 34th Test match.
Getting back to the subject in hand, I'm not convinced any touring team
would want to face bowlers of too high a quality in the warm-up matches.
Batsmen need to get a decent-length knock, build their confidence etc.
Andrew
situation looks rather different.
That said, Pietersen does have a higher average for innings in which he was
dismissed by a left-arm spinner than his career average, despite the bias
caused by the former list not containing any not outs. It's also
potentially interesting that he wasn't dismissed by a left-arm spinner until
his 34th Test match.
Getting back to the subject in hand, I'm not convinced any touring team
would want to face bowlers of too high a quality in the warm-up matches.
Batsmen need to get a decent-length knock, build their confidence etc.
Andrew
Mike Holmans
Nov 12, 2012, 8:04:50 PM11/12/12
to
On Tue, 13 Nov 2012 13:22:12 +1300, "Andrew Dunford"
Good SLAs have regularly troubled him: it's not his strongest suit by
any means. But several of the dismissals by half-arsed part-timers
have come when he's already in overdrive and taking risks.
> It's also
>potentially interesting that he wasn't dismissed by a left-arm spinner until
>his 34th Test match.
>
>Getting back to the subject in hand, I'm not convinced any touring team
>would want to face bowlers of too high a quality in the warm-up matches.
>Batsmen need to get a decent-length knock, build their confidence etc.
Fair point. Equally, though, you want something a bit more challenging
than Little Snoring CC's second XI. What you really want, but rarely
get, is bowlers who the selectors are never going to call on but who
think they're really good and set out to try and prove it.
Cheers,
Mike
--
any means. But several of the dismissals by half-arsed part-timers
have come when he's already in overdrive and taking risks.
> It's also
>potentially interesting that he wasn't dismissed by a left-arm spinner until
>his 34th Test match.
>
>Getting back to the subject in hand, I'm not convinced any touring team
>would want to face bowlers of too high a quality in the warm-up matches.
>Batsmen need to get a decent-length knock, build their confidence etc.
than Little Snoring CC's second XI. What you really want, but rarely
get, is bowlers who the selectors are never going to call on but who
think they're really good and set out to try and prove it.
Cheers,
Mike
--
Raj
Nov 13, 2012, 12:19:34 AM11/13/12
to
On Nov 13, 6:05 am, Mike Holmans <m...@jackalope.demon.co.uk> wrote:
> On Tue, 13 Nov 2012 13:22:12 +1300, "Andrew Dunford"
> <adunf...@artifax.net> tapped the keyboard and brought forth:
> On Tue, 13 Nov 2012 13:22:12 +1300, "Andrew Dunford"
>
> Fair point. Equally, though, you want something a bit more challenging
> than Little Snoring CC's second XI. What you really want, but rarely
> get, is bowlers who the selectors are never going to call on but who
> think they're really good and set out to try and prove it.
>
> Cheers,
>
> Mike
> --
England faced good spin bowlers (of the type you mention) in practice
> Fair point. Equally, though, you want something a bit more challenging
> than Little Snoring CC's second XI. What you really want, but rarely
> get, is bowlers who the selectors are never going to call on but who
> think they're really good and set out to try and prove it.
>
> Cheers,
>
> Mike
> --
matches in the 93 and 02 tours: Maninder, Hirwani and Chauhan in 93,
Powar, Murali K, Bahutule etc in 02. The last two England tours did
not have any practice match. Interestingly England won a match againt
2 losses (out of 5) in the last tours while not having any practice -
much better than the results than in 93 and 02. May be not having
good practice against Indian spinners helps England play better!
mike
Nov 14, 2012, 2:27:29 PM11/14/12
to
On 13 Nov, 05:19, Raj <srinivas...@gmail.com> wrote:
> England faced good spin bowlers (of the type you mention) in practice
> matches in the 93 and 02 tours: Maninder, Hirwani and Chauhan in 93,
> Powar, Murali K, Bahutule etc in 02. The last two England tours did
> not have any practice match. Interestingly England won a match againt
> 2 losses (out of 5) in the last tours while not having any practice -
> much better than the results than in 93 and 02. May be not having
> good practice against Indian spinners helps England play better!
mishra came on late to bowl in the haryana match, got compton
> England faced good spin bowlers (of the type you mention) in practice
> matches in the 93 and 02 tours: Maninder, Hirwani and Chauhan in 93,
> Powar, Murali K, Bahutule etc in 02. The last two England tours did
> not have any practice match. Interestingly England won a match againt
> 2 losses (out of 5) in the last tours while not having any practice -
> much better than the results than in 93 and 02. May be not having
> good practice against Indian spinners helps England play better!
out immediately and went on to take 4-67. i dont think he bowled
at all in the 2nd innings. but i think india have helped england by
not bowling lots of good spinners at them in the warm up
matches: all the england batters have got some time in the
middle and scored some runs, rather than struggling to
find form aganst mishra, ohja & ashwin.
of course we will have to wait to see if this batting practice
makes any difference to how england play in the tests..
something which hasnt been mentioned is how the
england seamers will perform in india against indias
powerful batting lineup. i hope if england lose
the toss, they dont find themselves in the field for
2 days.
mike
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