APA rule question
Ronald G. Heroux
shooter shoot (other than directly away from it) to avoid "double-kissing"
that object ball? We use APA rules which don't seem to cover this
situation. Is this not a problem under APA rules?
Wildthyng1
believe there is a rule concerning this. I also know for a fact that the ref's
in vegas will not call a double hit.
Ron Hudson
A double hit IS a foul under APA rules, and under any other rules I have ever
seen.
The following if from the APA team manual, page 47-48.
Ron
9. FOULS - If any of the following fouls are committed, the
penalty is ball-in-hand for the incoming player. Make certain you
have ball-in-hand before you touch the cue ball. Confirm it with your
opponent before touching the cue ball.
Ball-in-hand might be new for many members and therefore war-rants
further explanation. Ball-in-hand means you get to put the
cue ball anywhere on the table (with the exception of fouls on the
break which result in ball-in-hand behind the head string), and
shoot any of your balls (or the 8-ball, if all of your balls have
been pocketed) regardless of where that ball is. A player exercis-ing
his rights under the ball-in-hand rule may place the cue ball
on the table anywhere he desires. Even after having addressed the
cue ball a player may, if not satisfied with the placement, make
further adjustments with his hand, cue stick or any other reason-
able piece of equipment. A foul may be called only if the player
fouls the cue ball while actually stroking the cue ball, meaning a
double hit of the cue ball (sometimes called double clutching).
The ball-in-hand rule penalizes a player for an error. Without
this rule, a person can actually benefit by accidentally or pur-posely
scratching or otherwise fouling. In the unlikely event that a
game should ever become stalemated, meaning that neither player
wants or can make use of ball-in-hand, then the balls are
reracked, the same player breaks and the innings for the stale-mated
game are crossed off the scoresheet.
Ron Hudson
Ronald
Look in the APA team manual under rule 9 (fouls) and in the back in the
definitions section.
Ron
From the APA team manual, definitions:
PUSH SHOTS: A push shot involves a situation where the cue ball
is frozen or nearly frozen to the object ball. The problem faced by the
shooter is to keep from pushing or keeping the tip of the cue on the
cue ball. It looks bad and is generally thought of as illegal. Push
shots are controversial. Push shots will not be called in this amateur
League. Even the professional players cannot agree about what is and
isn't a push shot. In general, you can lessen your chances of being
accused of shooting a push shot if you elevate the butt of your cue
about 30 degrees. This automatically cuts down the length of the
follow through which is the principal cause of a push shot. Players
who repeatedly guide the cue ball with force through object balls that
are frozen or nearly frozen to the cue ball, using a level cue and long
follow through, may be subject to a sportsmanship penalty.
Bob Jewett
: A double hit is not a foul even at the national tournament level.
If the cue ball is frozen to the object ball, there is only a single hit.
The Jacksonville Project ultra-high-speed video tape shows this quite
clearly.
At pool, any normal stroke is permitted when the cue ball is frozen to
the object ball. This is covered in the FAQ, which will be posted in
about 60 seconds.
Bob Jewett
RSB FAQ URL: http://home1.gte.net/mavlon/faq.txt
Hlb7bbi
THE SHOT: The cue all and the object ball were frozen in the middle of the
table with the object ball being a few degees off from being straight in to the
corner pocket.
THE PLAY: Using oppisite english to 'throw' the object ball into the corner I
elevated the cue butt and stroked downward at the 5 o clock point of contact.
The objece ball went into the corner as planed and the cueball drew back about
3 inches. My opponent called a push shot and said the only way to avoid it was
to shoot at a 90 degree angle to the shot, in this case, shooting the cueball
into the side rail. I am sure I didn't hit the cueball twice due to the place
where I hit it. It seems that more and more, players are calling this a push
shot, I have always considered it a throw. Any comments??
Hank
mti...@creighton.edu
shot if the ball would have moved forward 6 inches or more. I was playing
in a singles match and that is what happened to me.
Mary
Derek S. Ray
>This question came up when playing with a friend the other day.
>THE SHOT: The cue all and the object ball were frozen in the middle of the
>table with the object ball being a few degees off from being straight in to the
>corner pocket.
>
>THE PLAY: Using oppisite english to 'throw' the object ball into the corner I
>elevated the cue butt and stroked downward at the 5 o clock point of contact.
>The objece ball went into the corner as planed and the cueball drew back about
>3 inches. My opponent called a push shot and said the only way to avoid it was
>to shoot at a 90 degree angle to the shot, in this case, shooting the cueball
>into the side rail. I am sure I didn't hit the cueball twice due to the place
>where I hit it. It seems that more and more, players are calling this a push
>shot, I have always considered it a throw. Any comments??
If the cue ball and object ball are frozen, you may play directly at
the object ball with a normal stroke with no penalty. The stroke you
described is "normal" enough for me.
More players are calling it a push shot because when the cue and
object ball are NOT frozen and you shoot directly at the ball, the
cue-tip will contact the cue ball twice and THAT is a foul. OR, in
order to avoid the double-hit, you must shovel the cue ball through
the object ball - which is also a foul. They don't realize the "if
the balls are frozen" part, and why it works.
-- Derek
Deafness never kept composers from hearing the music.
It only stopped them hearing the distractions.
Ron Shepard
> THE SHOT: The cue all and the object ball were frozen in the middle of the
> table with the object ball being a few degees off from being straight in to
the
> corner pocket.
>
> THE PLAY: Using oppisite english to 'throw' the object ball into the corner I
> elevated the cue butt and stroked downward at the 5 o clock point of contact.
> The objece ball went into the corner as planed and the cueball drew back
about
> 3 inches. My opponent called a push shot and said the only way to avoid it
was
> to shoot at a 90 degree angle to the shot, in this case, shooting the cueball
> into the side rail. I am sure I didn't hit the cueball twice due to the place
> where I hit it. It seems that more and more, players are calling this a push
> shot, I have always considered it a throw. Any comments??
This is discussed in the FAQ, which was just posted.
If the balls were really frozen, then it is a legal shot. You don't need to
elevate, or "cut" the ball to the side, or anything. If the balls were not
frozen, then it is probably a double-hit foul (not a push foul, which is
different).
But, the reason I'm replying is to point out that you don't need to use
sidespin to throw the shot. Just shoot it at an angle so that the cue ball
rubs the object ball in the right direction. Depending on what you want the
cue ball to do afterwards, you sometimes use sidespin and you sometimes use the
angle direction.
$.02 -Ron Shepard
tric...@my-deja.com
frustration.
1. Most APA refs will not recognize a push if the cue is frozen to
their heads (at the local/playoffs level).
2. One APA ref confessed to me that he would not call pushes on anyone
under a five and that it's rarely used for higher levels.
3. The general rule of thumb is that if the cue ball stops or draws
it's a good hit (see 4).
4. Even if the balls are frozen you can still foul by hitting straigt
forward. Since the object ball is set in motion by a transfer of force
from the cue ball, the object ball will be moving faster than the cue
if the cue is hit only once (assuming full contact between cue and
object ball). Thus when you hit straight on and the cue then
accelerates and is moving as fast as the OB, or faster it's a double
hit. Try it. If you listen to the shots you'll be able to tell the
difference too.
5. The amount of downward angle doesn't matter directly, if the cue
stops it's good, IMHO.
> >THE PLAY: Using oppisite english to 'throw' the object ball into the
corner I
> >elevated the cue butt and stroked downward at the 5 o clock point of
contact.
> >The objece ball went into the corner as planed and the cueball drew
back about
> >3 inches. My opponent called a push shot and said the only way to
avoid it was
> >to shoot at a 90 degree angle to the shot, in this case, shooting
the cueball
> >into the side rail. I am sure I didn't hit the cueball twice due to
the place
> >where I hit it. It seems that more and more, players are calling
this a push
> >shot, I have always considered it a throw. Any comments??
>
> If the cue ball and object ball are frozen, you may play directly at
> the object ball with a normal stroke with no penalty. The stroke you
> described is "normal" enough for me.
>
> More players are calling it a push shot because when the cue and
> object ball are NOT frozen and you shoot directly at the ball, the
> cue-tip will contact the cue ball twice and THAT is a foul. OR, in
> order to avoid the double-hit, you must shovel the cue ball through
> the object ball - which is also a foul. They don't realize the "if
> the balls are frozen" part, and why it works.
>
> -- Derek
>
> Deafness never kept composers from hearing the music.
> It only stopped them hearing the distractions.
>
Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/
Before you buy.
Ron Shepard
>forward.
It is possible, but not likely with two frozen balls (the cue ball and one
object ball). Even with two frozen balls, they both leave going significantly
faster than the cue stick, so it is difficult to get the cue stick to catch up
and hit them again. However, if you line up three balls, then four balls, and
so on, then you will get to a point where a foul is not only possible, but
likely.
Of course, if there are other balls or cushions nearby, then you can double-hit
the cue ball that way too.
BTW, there are some interesting trick shots based on the idea of shooting into
several frozen balls. The reason is that the spin on the cue ball is the same
as always, but because you are moving several balls instead of just one, the
speed is much lower, and the spin/speed ratio is much higher than usual. It is
like a masse shot, but with a level cue stick. One trick shot involves putting
an object ball in one corner pocket, and lining up several balls (three or four
works alright, two isn't enough) on the other side of the table; you shoot down
table with draw and a little bit of angle, the cue ball goes about half way
down table, reverses direction, and comes sliding back to pocket the ball in
the corner pocket.
$.02 -Ron Shepard
Ron Shepard
>Wow. Are you sure about all of that? Balls accelerating? Will the
>cue ball eventually pass the object ball?
Yes, there is a nice trick shot that works this way. The cue ball is frozen to
the 8-ball at one end of the table, they are pointed to a corner pocket at the
other end of the table, but the opponent's ball is blocking the pocket.
You elevate the stick and hit the cue ball a little towards the middle of the
table with sidespin. The cue ball goes toward the middle of the table a
diamond or so, passes the 8-ball, then curves back to pocket the opponent's
last ball, clearing it for the 8-ball to drop.
It works because of cloth friction. The 8-ball starts off with no topspin, so
it slows down as it slides on the cloth. The cue ball starts off with topspin,
so it doesn't slow down and eventually passes the 8-ball. It takes a bit of
practice to get the curve and the timing right, but it is the cloth friction
that lets the cue ball pass the 8-ball.
$.02 -Ron Shepard
WldWoman34
tiffa...@hotmail.com
SpyderMurphy
Frank<-do you guys know what she is talking about?
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