Bunjee report-sorry kinda long.....
James Bradley
regular cue I began to read my pool books and this newsgroup about how
to shoot the jump shot. I found that jumping a piece of a ball was
actually easy (it's really not rocket science!)and a great skill to have
when you're slightly hooked. I kept trying to jump a full ball on my
home table but was never successfull at more than half a ball. At the
bar where I play on Sundays I had better luck getting the ball in the
air and for a couple Sundays in a row I did get over a full ball on
several attempts(even made a couple of those shots). Thought I was hot
stuff - then I lost it! For two months after that I could never do it
again. Then they put new cloth on the tables and I felt the difference
immediately. On a couple shots that I elevated the cue on I noticed the
cue ball seemed rather springy. So I tried the jump again and it was
simple- now.
So I was wondering how much a jump cue actually helped. One day another
player was commenting on his jump/break cue that a local cue repair guy
had made for him. I tried a couple shots with it and it was much easier
than my playing cue. Now I'm hooked!
Went home and ordered a Bunjee Jumper from bunjeejump.com. It arrived
in about 4 days and I put it to the test on my table immediately. The
first three attempts were miserable flops- miscue or no jump and balls
flying! OK- calm down, start over , shallower angle, try a half ball
first. Then I got the angle and speed needed and got it to start
launching that cue ball! Piece of cake. Full ball a foot away- no
problem. Then I moved it 2 ball widths away. Aim a little steeper-OK -a
lot steeper- punch it-right over! In less than 10 minutes I could jump a
ball 2 ball widths away! Then I tried for distance- cue ball near end
rail and object ball in center of table-BAM!
Right over it and cue ball stays on the table. That is the most useful
feature- it seems that I don't have near the cue ball speed or multiple
bounces to have to control after the jump as I do with the regular cue.
Then I had fun - putting all the balls on the table in a scattered
cluster and jumped from various angles over the whole pile! WOW! You
could extricate yourself from a heap of trouble with a shot like that.
Well anyway, I couldn't be happier with the effectiveness of this jump
stick. Now I know I can always get over the ball- making the shot now
becomes the skill to practice. The jump itself is easy- making the ball
is hard. I'm also learning which shots are just not good choices to jump
at- even though it's fun to try! Sunday playing 9 Ball I made 2 perfect
jump shots- with shape to boot- we won't talk about the rest of the rack
:) Now I'm just laying in wait for the perfect shot on my Tues. nite 8
ball league. It's been 3 weeks now with no jump opportunities presenting
themselves- I'm about to hook myself, just so I can bring out my new
weapon!
I haven't used any other jump cues beyond the one mentioned above so I
don't have any comparisons to make other than -YES a jump cue does a far
better job than a playing cue!
Jim Bradley- hippity hop!
Texas Willee
cue to jump or do you think it should be considered as part of the game?
Texas Willee
lfigueroa
> In less than 10 minutes I could jump a ball 2 ball widths away!
If this isn't a testimonial as to why jumping with one of these pogo sticks
takes less skill than kicking, I don't know what is.
Lou Figueroa
"James Bradley" <jnbra...@attbi.com> wrote in message
news:3C564A47...@attbi.com...
Joe V
>JB reports:
>
>> In less than 10 minutes I could jump a ball 2 ball widths away!
>
>If this isn't a testimonial as to why jumping with one of these pogo sticks
>takes less skill than kicking, I don't know what is.
>
>Lou Figueroa
>
Lou,
I couldn't agree more.
Joe (----can kick with the best of them
Visit www.classiccues.com for a vast selection of collectible cues. Featuring
cues by Skip Weston.... "No special joints, no special shafts, just a special
cue", cues by Paul Mottey and many fine collectables.
S. Armstrong
Amen, brothers. TESTIFY!
Shawn
"Joe V" <class...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:20020129081311...@mb-ba.aol.com...
Kirk Douglass
> If this isn't a testimonial as to why jumping with one of these pogo
sticks
> takes less skill than kicking, I don't know what is.
>
> Lou Figueroa
In the past 3-4 years that I've been using a break/jump cue, I've found that
70-75% of the time I execute a jump shot my opponent has either "shit
hooked" me or played a very "loose" safety (not freezing me against a ball).
In most of these cases the only way to kick at the ball is 3 or more rails.
About half the time when I do jump I use the full cue. Now, is it fair for
my opponent to be rewarded for playing a bad shot (a loose safety) or "shit
hooking" me? If all the opponents of jump cues want to get rid of jump cues
maybe they should learn how to play "tight" safes and lock their opponents
up on a ball so it takes the jump cue out of the equation. Don't get me
wrong, I get pissed occasionally when a weak player or "rail banger" gets
out there jump cue for every other shot and IMO, abuses the priveledge.
However, you've got to love it when a person is constantly jumping balls
because it shows that their game IS weak.
Kirk
John Collins
"lfigueroa" <lfig...@att.net> wrote in message
news:fHw58.58$zT....@bgtnsc06-news.ops.worldnet.att.net...
> JB reports:
>
> > In less than 10 minutes I could jump a ball 2 ball widths away!
>
> If this isn't a testimonial as to why jumping with one of these pogo
sticks
> takes less skill than kicking, I don't know what is.
>
> Lou Figueroa
So you are saying that a player could not possibly learn to kick a ball in
10 minutes? And are you also claiming that James is now a world-beater
because he has learned to jump?
"Sunday playing 9 Ball I made 2 perfect jump shots- with shape to boot- we
won't talk about the rest of the rack"
Gee, it's funny how people will use anything to make their point, whether
accurate or not.
John
John Collins
earlier?
I'll ask it again for Lou, Joe and Shawn and anyone else who cares to answer
it;
If kicking is harder than jumping, then is not a jump-kick shot harder than
a simple kick shot by default?
Please answer this for me since I am apparently logically challenged. I
took the time to write my side of the debate and you simply ignored me.
Now we have a testimonial from someone who is clearly excited about having
the ability to jump and he readily admits that he still needs practice.
This is not a debate about kicking vs. jumping. Any good player knows that
both skills are needed to excel at pool.
John
"S. Armstrong" <sarmst...@home.com> wrote in message
news:5Dy58.762$TP1....@read1.cgocable.net...
John Collins
John
"Joe V" <class...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:20020129081311...@mb-ba.aol.com...
John Collins
"Kirk Douglass" <kdou...@NOSPAMcolumbus.rr.com> wrote in message
news:GSz58.11016$PE.38...@typhoon.columbus.rr.com...
> "lfigueroa" wrote
> > If this isn't a testimonial as to why jumping with one of these pogo
> sticks
> > takes less skill than kicking, I don't know what is.
> >
> > Lou Figueroa
>
> In the past 3-4 years that I've been using a break/jump cue, I've found
that
> 70-75% of the time I execute a jump shot my opponent has either "shit
> hooked" me or played a very "loose" safety (not freezing me against a
ball).
> In most of these cases the only way to kick at the ball is 3 or more
rails.
> About half the time when I do jump I use the full cue. Now, is it fair for
> my opponent to be rewarded for playing a bad shot (a loose safety) or
"shit
> hooking" me?
This question will go without answer from the "purists".
If all the opponents of jump cues want to get rid of jump cues
> maybe they should learn how to play "tight" safes and lock their opponents
> up on a ball so it takes the jump cue out of the equation.
Amen Brother!
Don't get me
> wrong, I get pissed occasionally when a weak player or "rail banger" gets
> out there jump cue for every other shot and IMO, abuses the priveledge.
> However, you've got to love it when a person is constantly jumping balls
> because it shows that their game IS weak.
>
> Kirk
(reverse sarcasm follows) Well now, if this isn't a testimonial to logic
and reason then I don't know what is.
John
JT Abar
<inst...@instroke.com> wrote:
>Now we have a testimonial from someone who is clearly excited about having
>the ability to jump and he readily admits that he still needs practice.
>This is not a debate about kicking vs. jumping. Any good player knows that
>both skills are needed to excel at pool.
I'm lucky enough to live in the same part of the country as Johnny
Archer so I get to see him play quite a bit. Is there anybody in this
forum who will say that Johnny doesn't know how to do a kick shot?
Well guess what, he also uses a jump cue. So who would you put your
money on. somebody like Joe who can kick with the best of them or
somebody like Johnny who is also a master of kicks but has a jump cue
ready if necessary?
>> "Joe V" <class...@aol.com> wrote in message
>> news:20020129081311...@mb-ba.aol.com...
>> > Lou,
>> >
>> > I couldn't agree more.
>> >
>> > Joe (----can kick with the best of them
If I had a dollar for every time my Bunjee has jumped me out of a jam
I could afford one of those fancy cues at classiccues.com
JT Abar
OFS
Joe V
>So who would you put your
>money on. somebody like Joe who can kick with the best of them or
>somebody like Johnny who is also a master of kicks but has a jump cue
>ready if necessary?
If you put any money on me for any pool playing, then you deserve what you
get. :)
Joe
Joe V
>If kicking is harder than jumping, then is not a jump-kick shot harder than
>a simple kick shot by default?
>
>Please answer this for me since I am apparently logically challenged. I
>took the time to write my side of the debate and you simply ignored me.
>
>Now we have a testimonial from someone who is clearly excited about having
>the ability to jump and he readily admits that he still needs practice.
>This is not a debate about kicking vs. jumping. Any good player knows that
>both skills are needed to excel at pool.
>
>John
John,
A "kick" jump shot would be harder, that doesn't take any thought to answer.
Explain to
us how to do a kick jump in a tournament where jumping is illegal.
This guy should be happy he can jump balls, he will probably use it more for
his own bad position play than an intentional or accidental safe by his
opponent.
But I think what Lou is trying to say is let him make learn kick shots in 10
minutes then. Obviously he cannot do kicks, or he would not have purchased the
jump cue.
So I guess than a jump, kick, masse, with draw would be the hardest most
useful shot in pool then. :)
Joe
Joe V
>In the past 3-4 years that I've been using a break/jump cue, I've found that
>70-75% of the time I execute a jump shot my opponent has either "shit
>hooked" me or played a very "loose" safety (not freezing me against a ball).
>In most of these cases the only way to kick at the ball is 3 or more rails.
>About half the time when I do jump I use the full cue. Now, is it fair for
>my opponent to be rewarded for playing a bad shot (a loose safety) or "shit
>hooking" me? If all the opponents of jump cues want to get rid of jump cues
>maybe they should learn how to play "tight" safes and lock their opponents
>up on a ball so it takes the jump cue out of the equation. Don't get me
>wrong, I get pissed occasionally when a weak player or "rail banger" gets
>out there jump cue for every other shot and IMO, abuses the priveledge.
>However, you've got to love it when a person is constantly jumping balls
>because it shows that their game IS weak.
>
>Kirk
Kirk,
On the same note is it fair that the same no talent luck artist is the same
person with a jump cue makes a contact jump, the cue goes 3 rails and knocks in
the nine?
Or maybe I play an unkickable safe due to my superior cueball control, and then
some hack pulls out half a cue and makes the kick, possibly getting him off 2
safes?
The shoe fits on both feet....
Matthew Tyler Fox
> "Kirk Douglass" <kdou...@NOSPAMcolumbus.rr.com> wrote in message
>> About half the time when I do jump I use the full cue. Now, is it fair for
>> my opponent to be rewarded for playing a bad shot (a loose safety) or
> "shit
>> hooking" me?
> This question will go without answer from the "purists".
Maybe not, but it's also not fair for me to win when I accidentally
double-bank the nine in the wrong side, or for you to win when my
miss randomly sets up the carom-combo into the nine. Slop happens,
and part of the game is finding ways around it-- that's not the
question at hand.
Adding a new piece of equipment that makes it easier to get around
your opponents shit-hooks is a nice idea, but I think the argument
is that sometimes there is a legitimate safe that requires a jump,
and maybe to jump the ball you should have to practice a lot
instead of just picking up another stick.
Matt <-- not quite a purist
Mark0
acuracy.
If I'm within more than a foot of the blocking ball and the object ball is
relatively close to the hole I'll use my shooter to jump (I'd say I was an
above average jumper using my shooter--went like 4 for 4 on my jumps at the
RSB Cols slugfest). If it's closer than a foot or so from the blocker
and/or the OB is say 18 inches from a pocket, I prefer to kick as I think
I'm more likely to leave a tough shot for my opponent that way.
I like having the ability to get up over a blocker fast, but I'm far less
likely to make the OB with that 'specialized' cue. Generally the level of
skill of my competitors means that a simple good hit is still going to cost
me the rack -- unless I get lucky.
I'd be just as happy to see them outlaw short cues (sorry John) but continue
to allow jumps with the cue you're shooting with. JMO
Mark0 <-- hey, he asked....
"Matthew Tyler Fox" <mt...@fas.harvard.edu> wrote in message
news:a36uin$bjl$1...@news.fas.harvard.edu...
John Collins
"Matthew Tyler Fox" <mt...@fas.harvard.edu> wrote in message
news:a36uin$bjl$1...@news.fas.harvard.edu...
>
> > "Kirk Douglass" <kdou...@NOSPAMcolumbus.rr.com> wrote in message
>
> >> About half the time when I do jump I use the full cue. Now, is it fair
for
> >> my opponent to be rewarded for playing a bad shot (a loose safety) or
> > "shit
> >> hooking" me?
>
> > This question will go without answer from the "purists".
>
> Maybe not, but it's also not fair for me to win when I accidentally
> double-bank the nine in the wrong side, or for you to win when my
> miss randomly sets up the carom-combo into the nine. Slop happens,
> and part of the game is finding ways around it-- that's not the
> question at hand.
>
Agreed. The jump cue is a legimate way around it. A cue that makes the
jump shot possible does not make it any more accurate. Only the player's
skill will determine how useful the jump cue is. Today's jump cues can
apply as much spin as any "normal" cue with a "normal" tip. So why the
problem? Simply because the player is able to jump a ball? He still must
calculate for spin and speed like any other shot, except now with the added
difficulty of figuring trajectory as well. I fail to see how this is any
less of a skill shot than any other shot.
> Adding a new piece of equipment that makes it easier to get around
> your opponents shit-hooks is a nice idea, but I think the argument
> is that sometimes there is a legitimate safe that requires a jump,
> and maybe to jump the ball you should have to practice a lot
> instead of just picking up another stick.
>
> Matt <-- not quite a purist
I totally agree with you. Now if the jump cue in question worked by itself
then I would say that it should be banned. However the jump cue does not.
It requires practice and skill to use it correctly. Books on kicking
systems abound and instructors are available all over the country. Should
we ban any instruction or systems simply because they give one player who
takes advantage of them more tools than one who does not?
John
John Collins
"JT Abar" <jta...@lucent.com> wrote in message
news:3c56f0ee....@nntp.cb.lucent.com...
> On Tue, 29 Jan 2002 11:00:27 -0700, "John Collins"
> <inst...@instroke.com> wrote:
>
>
> >Now we have a testimonial from someone who is clearly excited about
having
> >the ability to jump and he readily admits that he still needs practice.
> >This is not a debate about kicking vs. jumping. Any good player knows
that
> >both skills are needed to excel at pool.
>
> I'm lucky enough to live in the same part of the country as Johnny
> Archer so I get to see him play quite a bit. Is there anybody in this
> forum who will say that Johnny doesn't know how to do a kick shot?
> Well guess what, he also uses a jump cue. So who would you put your
> money on. somebody like Joe who can kick with the best of them or
> somebody like Johnny who is also a master of kicks but has a jump cue
> ready if necessary?
Can I get a witness! :-))
John
John Collins
> >"John Collins" inst...@instroke.com writes:
> >If kicking is harder than jumping, then is not a jump-kick shot harder
than
> >a simple kick shot by default?
> >
> >Please answer this for me since I am apparently logically challenged. I
> >took the time to write my side of the debate and you simply ignored me.
> >
> >Now we have a testimonial from someone who is clearly excited about
having
> >the ability to jump and he readily admits that he still needs practice.
> >This is not a debate about kicking vs. jumping. Any good player knows
that
> >both skills are needed to excel at pool.
> >
> >John
>
> John,
> A "kick" jump shot would be harder, that doesn't take any thought to
answer.
> Explain to
> us how to do a kick jump in a tournament where jumping is illegal.
I believe you meant jump-kick, wherin the first part of the shot is a jump
shot clearing an obstructing ball. However you could have also truly meant
kick-jump, where the cueball rebounds into the rail and then clears an
obstruction. Either way the introduction of the jump element guarantees
that it is harder and requires more skill than a simple kick shot.
Which tournaments are you referring to? As far as I know jumping is legal
everywhere. At least all of the major tours and tournaments allow it. Of
course there will always be those who will change the rules to suit their
own personal bias but I can't do anything about that.
> This guy should be happy he can jump balls, he will probably use it more
for
> his own bad position play than an intentional or accidental safe by his
> opponent.
> But I think what Lou is trying to say is let him make learn kick shots in
10
> minutes then. Obviously he cannot do kicks, or he would not have purchased
the
> jump cue.
>
There is absolutely no "obviously cannot do kicks" anywhere in James'
account of his experience with a jump cue. If in fact you can speak for Lou
and this is what he thinks then he is wrong. Again I say for the record
that the basic principle of kicking and the basic principle of jumping can
both be learned in a matter of minutes, 10 for some and 120 for others.
Mastery of both of these skills requires lots of practice and I will concede
that kicking requires more practice since jumping is essentially shooting
straight at a target for the most part. However, jump-kicks and jump-masse'
shots certainly require a working knowledge of both kicking and masse'
techniques to be any kind of successful percentage, so it is in fact,
obvious that the combination of these elements increases the 'skill' needed
exponentially.
> So I guess than a jump, kick, masse, with draw would be the hardest most
> useful shot in pool then. :)
>
If you knew how to do it and were able to execute it successfully, then yes
it would be a very powerful tool in your arsenal.
John
John Collins
I'll take this one.
1st question - I suppose that it could be fair since the no-talent opponent
left him a jump shot. But my personal feeling is that while not fair it is
part of the rules. The same thing applies to lucky kick shots that pocket
the nine, lucky caroms that pocket the nine, lucky combinations that pocket
the nine. In one tournament I play in it is call nine, works great, a rule
change I support wholeheartedly. If these were indeed the rules would jump
cues still be bad?
2cnd question - If it was "unkickable" how did the "hack" get to the object
ball. Homework Assignment: Go back and watch Grady's lesson on good safes
and bad safes. On 2? Who cares about being on two anymore since nobody
plays three fouls is a loss.
John
lfigueroa
masse would be tougher still. So what? A jump kick masse shot one handed
would be tougher still. So what?
What you have is not a testimonial from someone who has the ability to jump.
What you have is a testimonial from someone who has *bought* the ability to
jump.
Lou Figueroa
"John Collins" <inst...@instroke.com> wrote in message
news:AtB58.50$l06....@news.uswest.net...
lfigueroa
the guy who gets into the ring with a standard set of boxing gloves, or the
guy with the loaded gloves?
Lou Figueroa
"JT Abar" <jta...@lucent.com> wrote in message
news:3c56f0ee....@nntp.cb.lucent.com...
lfigueroa
ball, and not foul, than it does to buy your way out of a foul with a jump
cue.
I'm not talking about making the ball, or making it with draw, or with
english,
or blah blah, blah. Of course amazing things can be done with jump cues.
Big
deal, I've run out using a broom stick.
What I'm talking about is just the simple act of not forfeiting ball in
hand -- this alone should get these things banned, outlawed, and sent to
the tomato patch where they belong. Whereas otherwise you could play a good
safe and make the guy kick for it (or jump with a full cue), now he whips
out his pogo stick and voila! With 10 minutes practice he's clearing entire
balls. Where's the skill in that?
Allowing these pogo sticks into the game boils down to: haven't put in the
time and learned your rails, speed, and english? No problemo. Spend
$70 and get your "get out of jail card" in the mail.
It's the difference between getting on a billiard table and one guy having
to go three or more rails, and the other guy just has to make the ball go
hippity-hop to score.
Jump sticks reduce the game in the same way 5 1/2 inch pockets do.
Hell, that too tough? Let's make 'em 6 inches.
Lou Figueroa
"Joe V" <class...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:20020129144423...@mb-ch.aol.com...
lfigueroa
ready to fade the shitouts by your opponent. Besides, you'll get your
share too.
If you want less luck, try one pocket :-)
Lou Figueroa
"Kirk Douglass" <kdou...@NOSPAMcolumbus.rr.com> wrote in message
news:GSz58.11016$PE.38...@typhoon.columbus.rr.com...
Kirk Douglass
> Kirk,
> On the same note is it fair that the same no talent luck artist is the
same
> person with a jump cue makes a contact jump, the cue goes 3 rails and
knocks in
> the nine?
> Or maybe I play an unkickable safe due to my superior cueball control, and
then
> some hack pulls out half a cue and makes the kick, possibly getting him
off 2
> safes?
> The shoe fits on both feet....
>
> Joe
Joe,
I agree with your point of view, but what it all comes down to is that it
takes just as much skill to execute a precise jump as a precise kick. Myself
when I jump a ball, I'm trying a specific shot with a specific purpose (to
make the ball or bank it away to play safe AND play shape on the cueball
with follow ,draw, or sidespin), just the same as when I'm kicking at a
ball. The point I am trying to make is that in the hands of skilled players,
whether it's me at a 'b' speed or a seasoned pro, the jump shot is a
legitimate "skill" shot. A couple of months ago I was playing a man who at
one time was one of the best 9-ball players in the world. As usual, there
were several men in the 50-70 year old range rooting for Kenny, all having
an "old school" die hard attitude for the game. After I made a jump shot
early in the set one of the sweaters went into a rant about how jumping
doesn't take any skill, blah, blah blah. From there on when I jumped I
informed the man as to exactly what I was trying to accomplish. After the
session was over I got an apology from the heckler and respect from several
others saying that they never knew there was so much skill involved in a
jump shot.
Thinks jumping is here to stay,
Kirk
Kirk Douglass
> If you want less luck, try one pocket :-)
>
> Lou Figueroa
I do and I do & I will jump playing one-pocket.
Kirk
Matthew Tyler Fox
> I totally agree with you. Now if the jump cue in question worked by itself
> then I would say that it should be banned. However the jump cue does not.
Here, I believe, is the point of contention. When you say that it takes
hours of practice and plenty of skill to learn to apply the correct spin,
force, etc to make the shot, I think you are addressing a different goal
than the hacks who break it out to avoid the scratch. From what I understand
(limited, as I've never seen, let alone tried, one of these magic wands)
it's not particularly hard to get the cue ball to bounce into the object
ball with a jump cue. You might not make it unless you're really good,
but you've still noticeably improved your situation by having this extra
equipment.
Let's take me as an example: I can't jump the ball at all (I actually
kind of enjoy kick shots). If you put even the very edge of another
ball in my way, I'm looking for how many rails it takes. Based on
the testamonials here, it sounds like if I had about 15 minutes with a
Bunjee, I would develop the ability to bounce it pretty effectively.
I might not make a lot of shots with it, but I don't make many kicks
either-- the idea is to hit the right ball most of the time. If this
piece of equipment, absent any serious amount of practice, makes that
a whole lot easier to do, then it works by itself.
Matt
S. Armstrong
Man, you love these jump cue debates, don't you. Well, seeing as you've
called me out, I'll respond. You have asked if a jump-kick shot is harder
than a kick shot. The answer is yes, provided you're using the same cue for
both shots. I've seen people use the "scoop" version of the jump shot with
great accuracy. Is this now considered a skill shot? As far as tightening
up on the safety play, are you saying that we now have to play safeties
within a half-inch of the blocking ball for it to be considered a good
safety? Get real. It's not that I am a purist. I, for one, use the jump
shot as a valuable weapon. I even use the jump-kick shot. I, however, have
invested the time (more than 10 minutes) to learn these shots with my
playing cue. John, I'd like to ask a question to you: Seeing as you've
invested more time into learning to jump than most of us, are you able to
execute the same jump shots with your regular cue as your Bunjee Jump cue?
If you can't, then what you're saying is the jump shots you describe are a
skill shot only when coupled with your special jump cue. My take on this is
if you can't perform the shot with your playing cue, it isn't skill - it's
the stick. Yes, there is skill in everything.
And in response to the guy who mentioned that Johnny Archer can kick and
jump - I'll put my money on Efren Reyes with just his playing cue against
Johnny and his jump cue any day. Efren is perhaps the best kick player on
the planet. And he didn't learn that in a few days. Maybe this is also the
reason why Efren seems to win the big $$$ tourneys?
Shawn
"John Collins" <inst...@instroke.com> wrote in message
news:DmB58.48$l06....@news.uswest.net...
Donald Tees
why not just allow people to buy iron willies and spend ten minutes setting
up the equipment for each shot.
Donald (a snooker player, who will not allow jumping on his table, whatever
crazy rules someone dreams up)
"lfigueroa" <lfig...@att.net> wrote in message
news:vZF58.559$0J6....@bgtnsc04-news.ops.worldnet.att.net...
Joe V
>In one tournament I play in it is call nine, works great, a rule
>change I support wholeheartedly. If these were indeed the rules would jump
>cues still be bad?<<
But this isn't the case, so you are asking a hypothetical. If.. if.. if...
Lucking in the 9 ball has been a 9 ball standard BEFORE jump cues. I don't know
if you read what I wrote, but I did not imply that the guy who left the
original safe, made the lucky jump. I
was saying that maybe the same guy who left kirk luckily safe, makes the same
lucky shop with a jump cue.
>2cnd question - If it was "unkickable" how did the "hack" get to the object
>ball. Homework Assignment: Go back and watch Grady's lesson on good safes
>and bad safes. On 2? Who cares about being on two anymore since nobody
>plays three fouls is a loss.<<
He got the object ball using a jump cue, had he not used the cue he may not get
to the object ball. Because I have decent safing abilities. I like the three
foul rule. Do you play on Mars? Every tourney I have been to in the last
freaking 10 years plays the three foul rule.
Now maybe if you looked at is as a player and not an entraupeneur (sp) you
would see it differently.
Joe (---Thanks for getting the case back to us BTW
Joe V
James Bradley
answer the first reponse I got.
How can it be unfair if it's a legal shot any place I play? I have made it
my choice to learn this skill along with many others I choose to work on.
Most of the guys in my league don't practice any skills at all- obvious in
the way they shoot the same stupid shots, poorly executed in the same
manner, year after year. Does this mean I can't practice any skills to
become better for my OWN self gratification because I would then put others
at a disadvanatge?
Hope I play such good position that the jump cue is not needed
tonite..........but if I don't, I have another skill I can put to use to
hopefully come out the winner. And I won't apologize for the hard work (AND
marks on my own table) it takes to make the jump cue a useful tool.
To the rest of you- ya, whatever..........
John Collins
"lfigueroa" <lfig...@att.net> wrote in message
news:vZF58.559$0J6....@bgtnsc04-news.ops.worldnet.att.net...
> ball, and not foul, than it does to buy your way out of a foul with a jump
> cue.
Are you saying that an average player cannot kick at a ball in the general
direction of the object ball? You have never seen a player who really
doesn't know 'how' to kick ever kick at a ball and get a good hit? You have
never seen a player who hasn't put in hundreds of hours "learning" to kick
flail at a three railer and get lucky?
Unless the cue or the jump cue is playing all by itself no player on earth
is 'buying' their way out of anything. I am probably the most practiced
player in this forum with the BunjeeJumper and I still miss very makeable
jump shots, that is I do not clear the blocking ball on relatively easy
shots. Why do I miss these? Because my personal technique is not
consistent enough to stroke the same way every time. The same way I can't
draw the ball table length every time I want to, the same way I can't make
every bank I shoot at. Should we ban Byrne's book because it divulges how
to draw a ball, how about Grady's tapes on banking and kicking? Wait, I
remember, this is about equipment right? Well then ban everything, I mean
everything that purports to be better than something else where this game is
concerned. Since you can play with a broomstick that will be our game -
1-Hole - NO JUMP CUES - Lou gets a broomstick and no chalk and John gets a
'normal' cue.
>
> I'm not talking about making the ball, or making it with draw, or with
> english,
> or blah blah, blah. Of course amazing things can be done with jump cues.
> Big
> deal, I've run out using a broom stick.
And all those 'amazing' things only happen to be amazing because they are
done with a jump cue? Or do they require some knowledge and skill? Broom
Stick? Yada, yada see above.
>
> What I'm talking about is just the simple act of not forfeiting ball in
> hand -- this alone should get these things banned, outlawed, and sent to
> the tomato patch where they belong.
Huh? The 'simple' act? A guy lines up on a shot and has to factor in
trajectory as well as speed and spin and this is "simple"? Oh I see, when a
player kicks at a ball, he must line up and calculate the angle of
incidence, the speed and the spin and this is vastly more 'complicated'.
How about no safes at all - Grady's rules. You don't make a ball it's ball
in hand, but that wouldn't eliminate the jump shot or the kick just the
pansie safes where you can duck behind balls.
Whereas otherwise you could play a good
> safe and make the guy kick for it (or jump with a full cue), now he whips
> out his pogo stick and voila! With 10 minutes practice he's clearing
entire
> balls. Where's the skill in that?
Yes, he's clearing balls but is he making the object balls all the time, is
he controlling the cueball, is he now a world champion?
>
> Allowing these pogo sticks into the game boils down to: haven't put in
the
> time and learned your rails, speed, and english? No problemo. Spend
> $70 and get your "get out of jail card" in the mail.
That's just BS and you know it. There are a lot of extremely good players
who use jump cues. What about them? Will you deny that they have "put in
the time"?
>
> It's the difference between getting on a billiard table and one guy having
> to go three or more rails, and the other guy just has to make the ball go
> hippity-hop to score.
Poor analogy. I think Bob said that jump shots are encouraged in billiards.
On top of that Billiard players are notorious for having specialty cues for
certain shots and conditions. The ancestor of the Bunjee Jumper is an
Artistic Billiard Cue. But since you brought it up, is a jump shot where
the cueball jumps one of the object balls - goes three rails and contacts
the second object ball - a skill shot or a luck shot?
>
> Jump sticks reduce the game in the same way 5 1/2 inch pockets do.
>
> Hell, that too tough? Let's make 'em 6 inches.
>
This is also BS. You very well know that Grady just said, in another
thread, that it is tougher for a good player to win against a lesser player
on tighter pockets than on bigger pockets. You just cannot admit that you
are wrong on this one. You cannot admit that jumping, even with a "jump
cue" is a skill. Try it, it might relieve the pressure a little.
John
John Collins
> Luck is a huge part of nine ball. If you're going to play, you'd better
be
> ready to fade the shitouts by your opponent. Besides, you'll get your
> share too.
>
> If you want less luck, try one pocket :-)
>
> Lou Figueroa
When we play some one-hole get ready to fade the jump cue! :-)) You had
better FREEZE the cueball to the stack every time.
John
sonny
wrote:
>I'm saying that it takes more time and skill to learn how to kick to hit a
>ball, and not foul, than it does to buy your way out of a foul with a jump
>cue.
And it's more than just learning to kick. Kicking is plenty to work
on. But safety play is fairly seriously affected too if jumping balls
around the table becomes a common way to play pool. Learning to
freeze every safe will probably take a good bit longer to learn than
that 10 minute lesson in bunjee jumping. Good thing I love playing
pool for the challenge.
At least two way shots won't completely vanish, because I gotta figure
if my opponent is jumping, he's at a disadvantage.
So far I haven't seen a player who was a high percentage jumper, but
there are probably guys working on it as I type. Guess it's just a
matter of time.
Sonny
Joe V
>Which tournaments are you referring to? As far as I know jumping is legal
>everywhere. At least all of the major tours and tournaments allow it.
http://www.tristate-tour.com go to rules 6.3.
This is a major NY/NJ tour. Open through D class.
JT Abar
wrote:
>Jump sticks reduce the game in the same way 5 1/2 inch pockets do.
And soft breaks. And Sardo racks. And tips that hold their shape
without having to be constantly tweaked. And having a car with a
heater to get to the pool hall instead of having to trudge 5 miles
through the snow, uphill both ways.
JT Abar
OFS
lfigueroa
"John Collins" <inst...@instroke.com> wrote in message
news:XmI58.134$rN2.1...@news.uswest.net...
>
> "lfigueroa" <lfig...@att.net> wrote in message
> news:vZF58.559$0J6....@bgtnsc04-news.ops.worldnet.att.net...
> > I'm saying that it takes more time and skill to learn how to kick to hit
a
> > ball, and not foul, than it does to buy your way out of a foul with a
jump
> > cue.
>
> Are you saying that an average player cannot kick at a ball in the general
> direction of the object ball? You have never seen a player who really
> doesn't know 'how' to kick ever kick at a ball and get a good hit? You
have
> never seen a player who hasn't put in hundreds of hours "learning" to kick
> flail at a three railer and get lucky?
In these discussions, why do you always start off with, "Haven't you ever
seen..."
The truth is plain: 10 minutes time = jumping balls everywhere = no BIH.
> Unless the cue or the jump cue is playing all by itself no player on earth
> is 'buying' their way out of anything. I am probably the most practiced
> player in this forum with the BunjeeJumper and I still miss very makeable
> jump shots, that is I do not clear the blocking ball on relatively easy
> shots. Why do I miss these? Because my personal technique is not
> consistent enough to stroke the same way every time. The same way I can't
> draw the ball table length every time I want to, the same way I can't make
> every bank I shoot at. Should we ban Byrne's book because it divulges how
> to draw a ball, how about Grady's tapes on banking and kicking? Wait, I
> remember, this is about equipment right? Well then ban everything, I mean
> everything that purports to be better than something else where this game
is
> concerned. Since you can play with a broomstick that will be our game -
> 1-Hole - NO JUMP CUES - Lou gets a broomstick and no chalk and John gets a
> 'normal' cue.
Of course a player is shooting. What an absurd argument.
And we're talkng equipment, not knowledge.
> > I'm not talking about making the ball, or making it with draw, or with
> > english,
> > or blah blah, blah. Of course amazing things can be done with jump
cues.
> > Big
> > deal, I've run out using a broom stick.
>
> And all those 'amazing' things only happen to be amazing because they are
> done with a jump cue? Or do they require some knowledge and skill? Broom
> Stick? Yada, yada see above.
As I plainly said, I'm only talking about jumping to escape the foul. You
want to turn it into a much more elaborate issue than it really is.
> > What I'm talking about is just the simple act of not forfeiting ball in
> > hand -- this alone should get these things banned, outlawed, and sent
to
> > the tomato patch where they belong.
>
> Huh? The 'simple' act? A guy lines up on a shot and has to factor in
> trajectory as well as speed and spin and this is "simple"? Oh I see, when
a
> player kicks at a ball, he must line up and calculate the angle of
> incidence, the speed and the spin and this is vastly more 'complicated'.
> How about no safes at all - Grady's rules. You don't make a ball it's
ball
> in hand, but that wouldn't eliminate the jump shot or the kick just the
> pansie safes where you can duck behind balls.
You can try and make it sound as complex as you want, but it's still
10 minutes = jumping balls = no ball in hand.
> Whereas otherwise you could play a good
> > safe and make the guy kick for it (or jump with a full cue), now he
whips
> > out his pogo stick and voila! With 10 minutes practice he's clearing
> entire
> > balls. Where's the skill in that?
>
> Yes, he's clearing balls but is he making the object balls all the time,
is
> he controlling the cueball, is he now a world champion?
That's not what I'm talking about.
> > Allowing these pogo sticks into the game boils down to: haven't put in
> the
> > time and learned your rails, speed, and english? No problemo. Spend
> > $70 and get your "get out of jail card" in the mail.
>
> That's just BS and you know it. There are a lot of extremely good players
> who use jump cues. What about them? Will you deny that they have "put in
> the time"?
Of course good players are using them. Bu that has absolutely no relavance
to what 'm talking about. Hell, if I played more 9ball, I'd get one too, if
only to defend myself. The isssue I'm addressing is whether they should be
allowed. I don't think they should. Fortunately, the one 9ball event I
play each year bans them :-)
> > It's the difference between getting on a billiard table and one guy
having
> > to go three or more rails, and the other guy just has to make the ball
go
> > hippity-hop to score.
>
> Poor analogy. I think Bob said that jump shots are encouraged in
billiards.
> On top of that Billiard players are notorious for having specialty cues
for
> certain shots and conditions. The ancestor of the Bunjee Jumper is an
> Artistic Billiard Cue. But since you brought it up, is a jump shot where
> the cueball jumps one of the object balls - goes three rails and contacts
> the second object ball - a skill shot or a luck shot?
You missed the point.
> > Jump sticks reduce the game in the same way 5 1/2 inch pockets do.
> >
> > Hell, that too tough? Let's make 'em 6 inches.
> >
>
> This is also BS. You very well know that Grady just said, in another
> thread, that it is tougher for a good player to win against a lesser
player
> on tighter pockets than on bigger pockets. You just cannot admit that you
> are wrong on this one. You cannot admit that jumping, even with a "jump
> cue" is a skill. Try it, it might relieve the pressure a little.
Grady voiced his opinion. It is just that. His opinion seems to get him
busted a lot lately. And I don't know why I have to admit anything. I have
my opinion and feel quite comfortable with it, despite your rants. And
speaking of rants, John, there's no pressure on this end :-)
Lou Figueroa
lfigueroa
John goes, "bow wow."
Lou Figueroa
don't worry, I will :-)
"John Collins" <inst...@instroke.com> wrote in message
news:loI58.136$rN2.1...@news.uswest.net...
Patrick Johnson
> ... I can't jump the ball at all
You can and do, all the time. Just not so high you'd notice.
> ... If you put even the very edge of another
> ball in my way, I'm looking for how many rails it takes.
The jumps that occur whenever you jack up a little are enough to do
this. Next time just the edge of a ball is in the way, try jacking up
(just a little) and shooting as if the obstructing ball isn't there.
Pat Johnson
Chicago
jdub
philosophically opposed to them? Or is it jumping in general that you
abhor?
I know 3 good players that simply can't get comfortable with jumping
regardless of the cue. I have helped each of them learn to jump with a jump
cue and they still frequently prefer the kick when their objective is to
avoid BIH. I have a friend that alternates between kicks, jumping with his
playing cue, jumping with jump-break cue, and using my jump cue. He grasps
the needs of the shot and selects based on that criteria. I'd guess his
miss rate is about equal with each of the 4 methods.
What about if someone came out with a significant masse' cue - something
with a special tip (still legal) and the right shaft composition to make it
really easy to impart nice little parabolas with still having a fairly level
hit? Should that be banned? After all, when you strike a cue ball it is
'supposed' to go straight until it hits something unless you jack up on it
like a madman with lots of side English.
The same thing goes for Predator 314 shafts - admittedly the worst shaft
made for jumping - should these be banned due to the additional engineering
to eliminate weight while maintaining stiffness near the tip? How about the
Red Dot shafts?
I guess what it comes down to is this - If I'm given adequate time to warm
up on a table, kicking becomes a much more viable option. However, lack of
consistency among rails, tightness of cloth on the rails, cleanliness of the
balls, etc., makes kicking a less consistent option in my mind. It's kinda
like deciding between the 80 degree cut shot versus the 15 degree
combination cut shot. With which one can I eliminate variables to improve
my chances?
When I think of all of the unethical things players will do to improve their
chances of winning (slow play, gaff racks, etc.), I don't understand why a
solid player such as yourself wouldn't take the time to become proficient at
a part of the game that is legal and ethical. With the amount of time and
money we invest into this game, $70-$100 for a jump cue and a few hours of
practice early on seems like a small investment.
It seems to me that the entire argument surrounds weak players jumping out
of bad situations. If they are a weak player, what the heck do you care?
Yeah, they might pull a game or even two in a long race as a result of
jumping, but the odds are the better player is going to win a lot more
often. A strong player who can jump is dangerous because he has another
weapon to his arsenal. Consider it detente' - if you're not willing to step
up, don't complain about the person that did.
Here's a modest proposal for John Collins. John, have you thought about
making a new butt for your jump cues that was simply a full stock jump/break
cue that when separated was the same length as the jump cue? I have tried
breaking with a break cue that a guy put the Bungee tip onto and wow, talk
about impact.... I'd probably leave the cocabola butt at home if I could
have the Bungee shaft & tip on a combination jump/break cue. Just a
thought.
--Jim
"lfigueroa" <lfig...@att.net> wrote in message
news:F9S58.1314$0J6....@bgtnsc04-news.ops.worldnet.att.net...
> I don't usually do this, but...
>
> "John Collins" <inst...@instroke.com> wrote in message
> news:XmI58.134$rN2.1...@news.uswest.net...
> >
> > "lfigueroa" <lfig...@att.net> wrote in message
> > news:vZF58.559$0J6....@bgtnsc04-news.ops.worldnet.att.net...
<<<<<<< Lou's and John's ongoing battle snipped >>>>>>>
JT Abar
<removeextr...@columbus.rr.com> wrote:
>It seems to me that the entire argument surrounds weak players jumping out
>of bad situations. If they are a weak player, what the heck do you care?
>Yeah, they might pull a game or even two in a long race as a result of
>jumping, but the odds are the better player is going to win a lot more
>often. A strong player who can jump is dangerous because he has another
>weapon to his arsenal. Consider it detente' - if you're not willing to step
>up, don't complain about the person that did.
I play in an open 8-ball tournament most friday nights, 21 games
against 7 players, top 2 won/loss records make it to the next round.
I average one or 2 jumps in a typical night. While it has bailed me
out of giving the other player BIH many times and even won me a game
or two where I would have lost if it wasn't for the bunjee it has
never been the difference in (A) getting me into the second round or
(B) keeping a player who wold have otherwise made it to the second
round out. The best players still get the cash.
JT Abar
OFS
Ron Shepard
"lfigueroa" <lfig...@att.net> wrote:
> JB reports:
>
> > In less than 10 minutes I could jump a ball 2 ball widths away!
>
> If this isn't a testimonial as to why jumping with one of these pogo sticks
> takes less skill than kicking, I don't know what is.
I don't know. He could probably learn to hit an object ball with an easy
kick shot in 10 minutes too. Fact is, most people don't practice any
shot, kicks or jumps.
I've had my jump cue for a little over a year now, and I do practice with
it from time to time. Like any other shot, I don't practice with it
enough. One of my practice shots is to shoot spot shots while jumping
over an object ball on the head string with the cue ball a diamond away
from the blocking object ball. On my bad days, I make about 1 in 4 shots,
on my good days I make about 1 in 3. When I first started, I made this
shot about 10% of the time. My feeling is that it is easier (more
consistent) to hit this shot with a kick, but it is easier to pocket the
ball with a jump. I'm guessing that this is a 50% or better shot for the
pros. My 25% to 30% success rate does not give me an advantage over the
pro, like most other shots, I'm still playing catch-up. And I have seen
significant improvement from when I first started to my current ability,
so a jump cue is not the silver bullet that eliminates the need for skill
or practice. Also, I notice that when I'm jumping well, I'm also doing
other things well that day too, so whatever skills are required for
jumping carry over to other aspects of the game.
How often do you see jump cues in one-pocket games? It doesn't seem very
often to me. Are they outlawed in most one-pocket tournaments?
$.02 -Ron Shepard
Alex Kanapilly
> I agree with your point of view, but what it all comes down to is that it
> takes just as much skill to execute a precise jump as a precise kick. Myself
> when I jump a ball, I'm trying a specific shot with a specific purpose (to
> make the ball or bank it away to play safe AND play shape on the cueball
> with follow ,draw, or sidespin), just the same as when I'm kicking at a
> ball. The point I am trying to make is that in the hands of skilled players,
> whether it's me at a 'b' speed or a seasoned pro, the jump shot is a
> legitimate "skill" shot. A couple of months ago I was playing a man who at
> one time was one of the best 9-ball players in the world. As usual, there
> were several men in the 50-70 year old range rooting for Kenny, all having
> an "old school" die hard attitude for the game. After I made a jump shot
> early in the set one of the sweaters went into a rant about how jumping
> doesn't take any skill, blah, blah blah. From there on when I jumped I
> informed the man as to exactly what I was trying to accomplish. After the
> session was over I got an apology from the heckler and respect from several
> others saying that they never knew there was so much skill involved in a
> jump shot.
>
> Thinks jumping is here to stay,
> Kirk
I've been reading this thread with great interest as I'm a big fan of
jumping. So far, I think Kirk's views on jumping mirror mine exactly.
The experience he shares above is similar to one that just happened to
me.
I will concede that jumping with a jump cue is easier than with a
playing cue (duh) and that it changes the parameters of what's
possible. Is that what bothers all of you? If so, too bad. Get the
rules changed and quit whining about it. No, I didn't mean that, keep
whining about it. I love using my jump cue on someone that hates them.
I think you purists are handicapping yourselves by not learning to use
one of these cues, some of us are practicing with them and are
becoming quite adept at using them.
I might be crazy but I'd rather have the use of my jump cue than the
last two. What do you think Johnny Archer would rather have against
Efren? I'm really ineterested in your opinions on this.
Alex <-- thinks he kicks better than he jumps, but not for long
John Collins
> >John Collins" inst...@instroke.com writes:
>
> >Which tournaments are you referring to? As far as I know jumping is
legal
> >everywhere. At least all of the major tours and tournaments allow it.
>
> http://www.tristate-tour.com go to rules 6.3.
>
> This is a major NY/NJ tour. Open through D class.
The rule does not prevent jump shots, just jump cues. As I said we cannot
prevent anyone from making rules up. I can and have made up a cue that
plays well and jumps like a Bunjee. Would they then just ban this cue as
well? We also sponsor a lot of tours and this one was rejected because they
do not allow jump cues. Just as any tour director is allowed to make up
rules to suit themselves I am allowed to withhold my sponsorship as well.
The argument was that we also make cases so why can't we sponsor on that
end? My counterargument was that Jump Cues are a legal part of the game and
the market. I don't want to sponsor a tour that willfully excludes this
part of the market. That is the purely business reason. The personal
reason is that the jump cue as such is an innovation in the market that
promotes better play and opens up the game for more great shots.
John
John Collins
> > "John Collins" inst...@instroke.com writes:
> >In one tournament I play in it is call nine, works great, a rule
> >change I support wholeheartedly. If these were indeed the rules would
jump
> >cues still be bad?<<
>
> But this isn't the case, so you are asking a hypothetical. If.. if.. if...
> Lucking in the 9 ball has been a 9 ball standard BEFORE jump cues. I don't
know
> if you read what I wrote, but I did not imply that the guy who left the
> original safe, made the lucky jump. I
> was saying that maybe the same guy who left kirk luckily safe, makes the
same
> lucky shop with a jump cue.
I guess I didn't quite follow your example then. To simplify things as long
as one can profit from 'lucky' shots then it does not matter how they were
made. Jumping, with or without jump cues adds one more dimension to the
game only. Yes, a jump cue increases the amount of 'good' hits that can be
made and therefore increases the amount of lucky shots that can be made as
well. The amount of great and planned shots increases as well so it is a
wash.
John
John Collins
"S. Armstrong" <sarmst...@home.com> wrote in message
news:wQG58.1957$TP1....@read1.cgocable.net...
> John,
>
> Man, you love these jump cue debates, don't you.
It's not that I love them. I simply have one view, slightly tainted by my
product line, and you have another. If you choose to present a view then be
prepared to defend it, no matter the subject.
Well, seeing as you've
> called me out, I'll respond. You have asked if a jump-kick shot is harder
> than a kick shot. The answer is yes, provided you're using the same cue
for
> both shots.
Okay, so if I invent a cue that jumps like a Bunjee and plays like a regular
cue at the "full" length then jump shots would be skill shots? How about if
I only play with a jump cue? I played one pocket using only the Bunjee and
ran 8 and out in one game. Does this mean that the jump shots played with
the Bunjee in that session were now skill shots instead of gimmick induced.
What I find funny is that you as a player accept the 'status quo' as being
the end of innovation. Why can't I say that pool played with a leather tip
is a travesty, it's not really artistry until you are able to run out with a
mace. If the same jump cues had been invented in the 40's and became
popular and accepted you would probably think nothing of them and be an
expert jumper with a jump cue.
I've seen people use the "scoop" version of the jump shot with
> great accuracy. Is this now considered a skill shot?
Any shot made consistently and with great accuracy is a skill shot. There
are many trick shots which involve pushing the cueball with precisely the
right amount of force and in the right spot. None of these are legal yet
they require skill to perform correctly.
As far as tightening
> up on the safety play, are you saying that we now have to play safeties
> within a half-inch of the blocking ball for it to be considered a good
> safety? Get real.
Yes if you are playing against a jump cue. Sometimes I leave someone long
and on the rail with a bank that's "on" whom I know isn't a strong banker
and I often get punished for it when they split the pocket. Had I used a
little forethought and made sure the bank was off then the chances of a
successful shot would have been greatly reduced. My lack of good safety
play caused me the loss and nothing else.
It's not that I am a purist. I, for one, use the jump
> shot as a valuable weapon. I even use the jump-kick shot. I, however,
have
> invested the time (more than 10 minutes) to learn these shots with my
> playing cue.
I guess then that this is the real crux of the debate, what is a "real"
playing cue. I believe that a jump cue under the current rules qualifies as
such. Admittedly it does make the jump shot easier to execute but also it
allows for spin to be applied just like any other cue and thus allows for
precise control of the cueball. Isn't pool about precise control of the
cueball? Again then I ask whether you favor going to everyone playing with
one cue made to exactly the same specs?
John, I'd like to ask a question to you: Seeing as you've
> invested more time into learning to jump than most of us, are you able to
> execute the same jump shots with your regular cue as your Bunjee Jump cue?
> If you can't, then what you're saying is the jump shots you describe are a
> skill shot only when coupled with your special jump cue. My take on this
is
> if you can't perform the shot with your playing cue, it isn't skill - it's
> the stick. Yes, there is skill in everything.
Before I started with the jump cue I was a very accomplished jumper with a
"regular" cue. The jump cue merely increases the range of shots so that I
can concentrate more on my shot rather than the power needed to accomplish
the jump. Every shot that I have ever seen with the Bunjee I have also seen
a version performed with a normal cue.
So the jump cue makes the 'jump shot' easier. A leather tip with chalk make
the application of spin easier. With things being made easier the real
skill differences come out. So everybody can jump a ball with a jump cue,
wow! So what, now who can "play" with a jump cue, that is the question?
Why is it acceptable to have different equipment in other sports and not
pool? In the moment that I am facing a jump shot the jump cue becomes my
"playing" cue. I am depending on this piece of equipment, I have faith that
if I execute correctly that I will have a chance to get a successful result.
If you want skill according to your definition then take away the cues
entirely. Finger pool from now on.
>
> And in response to the guy who mentioned that Johnny Archer can kick and
> jump - I'll put my money on Efren Reyes with just his playing cue against
> Johnny and his jump cue any day. Efren is perhaps the best kick player on
> the planet. And he didn't learn that in a few days. Maybe this is also
the
> reason why Efren seems to win the big $$$ tourneys?
>
You have a point there. However Efren did not have jump cues when he was
learning and jumping was not a neccessity under the rules he played by.
Rotation was played under two foul rules with a push out possible every
shot. What about the times when Johhnny was winning all the tournaments?
Did those wins then validate his methods. But your point makes exactly mine
which is that a jump cue does not guarantee success. It is only one more
tool but never ever takes or makes the shots by itself.
John
Joe V
>The rule does not prevent jump shots, just jump cues. As I said we cannot
>prevent anyone from making rules up.
Thats what we are debating, the cue, not the shot. I don't think or remember
Lou
or myself saying the shot is a problem.
>I can and have made up a cue that plays well and jumps like a Bunjee. <<
First off, knowing you, if you did you would be out marketing it as the next
great thing in pool.
>My counterargument was that Jump Cues are a legal part of the game and
>the market. I don't want to sponsor a tour that willfully excludes this
>part of the market. That is the purely business reason.<<
This is EXACTLY the same reason you support the use of jump cues. Period.
>The personal reason is that the jump cue as such is an innovation in the
market that
>promotes better play and opens up the game for more great shots.<<
And the fact it pads your wallet. Remember the jump rod? That to me was an
excellent
jumping device, but it was banned. If you are going to allow jump cues, you
need to allow ALL of them. Because it is a special device. Regardless of who
makes it, the length, the materials, etc.. It also opens the game up to MORE of
a luck factor, which is something I recall you saying you don't like.
Joe
John Collins
> I don't usually do this, but...
>
> "John Collins" <inst...@instroke.com> wrote in message
> news:XmI58.134$rN2.1...@news.uswest.net...
> >
> > "lfigueroa" <lfig...@att.net> wrote in message
> > news:vZF58.559$0J6....@bgtnsc04-news.ops.worldnet.att.net...
> > > I'm saying that it takes more time and skill to learn how to kick to
hit
> a
> > > ball, and not foul, than it does to buy your way out of a foul with a
> jump
> > > cue.
> >
> > Are you saying that an average player cannot kick at a ball in the
general
> > direction of the object ball? You have never seen a player who really
> > doesn't know 'how' to kick ever kick at a ball and get a good hit? You
> have
> > never seen a player who hasn't put in hundreds of hours "learning" to
kick
> > flail at a three railer and get lucky?
>
> In these discussions, why do you always start off with, "Haven't you ever
> seen..."
Because you are saying that the cue does the work and you are wrong. You
know full well that players lacking the skill often get good hits with
kicks, combinations, caroms and banks. Aren't diamond sights on a pool
table unfair because a player can buy his way into more success by learning
the diamond system?
>
> The truth is plain: 10 minutes time = jumping balls everywhere = no BIH.
That's your read into James' statement. He didn't say that. He said that
in about ten minutes he was able to clear the ball. He also said that he
had practiced jumping well beforehand. Never once was it stated that every
jump shot he will ever shoot will successfully clear the ball and not give
up BIH. You are conjecturing out of bias because you believe that this
testimonial makes your point when it does not. I have had players at
tournament who took an hour to be able to jump a ball with a jump cue. Does
this then make a jump cue valid if it takes longer to learn how to use it.
Tell me you can't teach a novice to hold a cue correctly and pocket a ball
inside ten minutes.
We are talking knowledge and equipment. If I understand your point, your
are saying that the equipment makes the shots and not the player. A jump
cue is simply a piece of equipment that makes jumping possible just as a
chalked tip makes a draw shot possible. Either way they are inert objects
which only "perform" if used correctly. Correct use requires knowledge or
do you have a cue which works on autopilot?
> > > I'm not talking about making the ball, or making it with draw, or with
> > > english,
> > > or blah blah, blah. Of course amazing things can be done with jump
> cues.
> > > Big
> > > deal, I've run out using a broom stick.
> >
> > And all those 'amazing' things only happen to be amazing because they
are
> > done with a jump cue? Or do they require some knowledge and skill?
Broom
> > Stick? Yada, yada see above.
>
> As I plainly said, I'm only talking about jumping to escape the foul. You
> want to turn it into a much more elaborate issue than it really is.
>
And I equated it with blind kicking to escape a foul. You conveniently
skipped that part. Should we ban people from kicking balls unless they have
a card showing that they have practiced sufficiently? You totally deny any
skill in jump shots made with a jump cue.
> > > What I'm talking about is just the simple act of not forfeiting ball
in
> > > hand -- this alone should get these things banned, outlawed, and
sent
> to
> > > the tomato patch where they belong.
> >
> > Huh? The 'simple' act? A guy lines up on a shot and has to factor in
> > trajectory as well as speed and spin and this is "simple"? Oh I see,
when
> a
> > player kicks at a ball, he must line up and calculate the angle of
> > incidence, the speed and the spin and this is vastly more 'complicated'.
> > How about no safes at all - Grady's rules. You don't make a ball it's
> ball
> > in hand, but that wouldn't eliminate the jump shot or the kick just the
> > pansie safes where you can duck behind balls.
>
> You can try and make it sound as complex as you want, but it's still
> 10 minutes = jumping balls = no ball in hand.
So what? 10 minutes of diligent kicking practice will also gain a player
enough knowledge to escape many poor safes as well. Again you are quoting
James' post out of context and conjecturing without basis.
>
> > Whereas otherwise you could play a good
> > > safe and make the guy kick for it (or jump with a full cue), now he
> whips
> > > out his pogo stick and voila! With 10 minutes practice he's clearing
> > entire
> > > balls. Where's the skill in that?
> >
> > Yes, he's clearing balls but is he making the object balls all the time,
> is
> > he controlling the cueball, is he now a world champion?
>
> That's not what I'm talking about.
Then what exactly are you talking about?
>
> > > Allowing these pogo sticks into the game boils down to: haven't put
in
> > the
> > > time and learned your rails, speed, and english? No problemo. Spend
> > > $70 and get your "get out of jail card" in the mail.
> >
> > That's just BS and you know it. There are a lot of extremely good
players
> > who use jump cues. What about them? Will you deny that they have "put
in
> > the time"?
>
> Of course good players are using them. Bu that has absolutely no
relavance
> to what 'm talking about. Hell, if I played more 9ball, I'd get one too,
if
> only to defend myself. The isssue I'm addressing is whether they should
be
> allowed. I don't think they should. Fortunately, the one 9ball event I
> play each year bans them :-)
If it has no relevance then why did you make the statement? To make a claim
that only players buy jump cues to make up for their unwillingness to "put
in the time" on other areas of the game is incorrect and is not a valid
reason to ban the cues. If jump cues were banned entirely then I would suck
it up and go on. I take the opposing view that they should not be banned
because in my opinion, they add to the game and do not detract from it. My
opinon is of course biased because a signifigant part of my income comes
from the sale of jump cues. Instroke Sports has also been the most
informative about the technique and art of jumping as well.
>
> > > It's the difference between getting on a billiard table and one guy
> having
> > > to go three or more rails, and the other guy just has to make the ball
> go
> > > hippity-hop to score.
> >
> > Poor analogy. I think Bob said that jump shots are encouraged in
> billiards.
> > On top of that Billiard players are notorious for having specialty cues
> for
> > certain shots and conditions. The ancestor of the Bunjee Jumper is an
> > Artistic Billiard Cue. But since you brought it up, is a jump shot
where
> > the cueball jumps one of the object balls - goes three rails and contact
s
> > the second object ball - a skill shot or a luck shot?
>
> You missed the point.
I guess I did then. I only had you analogy to go on? What was your point?
>
> > > Jump sticks reduce the game in the same way 5 1/2 inch pockets do.
> > >
> > > Hell, that too tough? Let's make 'em 6 inches.
> > >
> >
> > This is also BS. You very well know that Grady just said, in another
> > thread, that it is tougher for a good player to win against a lesser
> player
> > on tighter pockets than on bigger pockets. You just cannot admit that
you
> > are wrong on this one. You cannot admit that jumping, even with a "jump
> > cue" is a skill. Try it, it might relieve the pressure a little.
>
> Grady voiced his opinion. It is just that. His opinion seems to get him
> busted a lot lately. And I don't know why I have to admit anything. I
have
> my opinion and feel quite comfortable with it, despite your rants. And
> speaking of rants, John, there's no pressure on this end :-)
>
Hey, you are entitled to your wrong opinon. You are supposed to feel
comfortable with it. Just don't think you can come in here and rant about
how "hippity hop" cues are for bangers who lack skill and not get called on
it.
John
John Collins
to have you whine about getting beat with a hippity hop cue on autopilot.
You can prove that your skill beats the jump cue by playing tighter safes.
Of course by then I might have invented a cue that a player can just throw
at a rack like a javelin and make eight balls in one shot.
John
"lfigueroa" <lfig...@att.net> wrote in message
news:9aS58.1315$0J6....@bgtnsc04-news.ops.worldnet.att.net...
John Collins
----- Original Message -----
From: "Joe V" <class...@aol.com>
Newsgroups: rec.sport.billiard
Sent: Wednesday, January 30, 2002 12:10 PM
Subject: Re: Bunjee report-sorry kinda long.....
> >John Collins" inst...@instroke.com writes:
>
> >The rule does not prevent jump shots, just jump cues. As I said we
cannot
> >prevent anyone from making rules up.
>
> Thats what we are debating, the cue, not the shot. I don't think or
remember
> Lou
> or myself saying the shot is a problem.
If we are then debating just the cue then are you saying that a cue which
allows for better control of a legal shot is bad for the game? Should we be
playing without leather tips and chalk then if this is your contention?
>
> >I can and have made up a cue that plays well and jumps like a Bunjee. <<
>
> First off, knowing you, if you did you would be out marketing it as the
next
> great thing in pool.
What does this mean? Why then do I specifically warn customers on the
Bunjee website that they should not consider a jump cue to be a "magic
wand". I do in fact have a full length cue that jumps as well as a Bunjee.
I have in fact gambled and won money using this cue exclusively. You still
did not answer my question which was if such cue were available would it
then be unfair to have and use one?
>
> >My counterargument was that Jump Cues are a legal part of the game and
> >the market. I don't want to sponsor a tour that willfully excludes this
> >part of the market. That is the purely business reason.<<
>
> This is EXACTLY the same reason you support the use of jump cues. Period.
This is a false statement. Look it up on Google. We started marketing the
Bunjee in 1997. I clearly argued for the use of jump cues using the exact
same logic as I am using now well before I ever sold any commercially. In
fact, while I was then arguing for the use of jump cues I did not even carry
one. When I saw in 1996 that Happy Hoppers were being sold for $220-$250 I
realized that I could fill a market niche for far less money out of the
consumers pocket with an equally effective tool. Funny, no one ever went up
to Tom Rossman and bitched him out for selling jump cues and accused him of
advocating jump cues for purely commercial reasons.
>
> >The personal reason is that the jump cue as such is an innovation in the
> market that
> >promotes better play and opens up the game for more great shots.<<
>
> And the fact it pads your wallet.
Uh? Didn't I admit this in the part you snipped out?
Remember the jump rod? That to me was an
> excellent
> jumping device, but it was banned. If you are going to allow jump cues,
you
> need to allow ALL of them. Because it is a special device. Regardless of
who
> makes it, the length, the materials, etc..
I agree, as long as the device does no damage to any other part of the
playing equipment with normal use. The jump rods you speak of were indeed
"hippity hop" cues to use Lou's description. These rods required the barest
minimum of skill to use and offered virtually no control over the cueball.
What they did do for the game is to prove that it is possible to have a
device which enhances a particular shot. The evolution of these rods which
are the jump cues of today are far superior in that they allow a player to
play pool. Rather than have to hit the ball unreasonably hard the player
can concentrate on the dynamics of the shot in order to make a good attempt
at a successful shot. Sure let anyone use anything they want - the market
will quickly decide what works and what doesn't.
But why are you penalizing the manufacturers and innovators who have built
successful working cues under the rules? Are you against innovation? Since
you and Lou are debating the cue and not the shot should we stop allowing
any manufacturer to sell any goods that prove conclusively that the product
they sell performs better than similar products? Should Predator Shafts be
banned from the market, should Meucci Red Dot shafts be banned? What would
be your limits?
It also opens the game up to MORE of
> a luck factor, which is something I recall you saying you don't like.
>
Um I believe that I addressed this in the part you snipped as well.
John
John Collins
> Here's a modest proposal for John Collins. John, have you thought about
> making a new butt for your jump cues that was simply a full stock
jump/break
> cue that when separated was the same length as the jump cue? I have tried
> breaking with a break cue that a guy put the Bungee tip onto and wow, talk
> about impact.... I'd probably leave the cocabola butt at home if I could
> have the Bungee shaft & tip on a combination jump/break cue. Just a
> thought.
>
> --Jim
We have a Bunjee Jump/Breaker out now for testing. I have about 30 cues out
there and in another month or so we will be ready to go to full production
on them.
John
John Collins
> often to me. Are they outlawed in most one-pocket tournaments?
>
> $.02 -Ron Shepard
I use them occassionally. Playing for 50 jellybeans a game in Kansas City I
used it successfully several times to get out of traps. Just last night I
used my jump cue for a fairly easy shot that I should be able to make about
80% of the time. I choked up on the stroke and sold out the game.
I don't know if they are banned in one pocket tournaments. They shouldn't
be. If so then ban bridges and extensions as well. I would also ban any
markings on the table and play with a black cloth surrounding the table so
that it is impossible to use any visual reference for banking. No double
the rail, no diamond systems no dissecting the angle etc...
John
S. Armstrong
Good response. You make some really good points. I have invested the time
to learn how to jump with my cue (the cue that I play with after the break),
and that's what I feel is fair. With the Bunjee, I had a trick shot that I
loved to do. I would put the cueball about 5 inches out of the corner
pocket, and would put the triangle down, then line up 10 balls at the head
of the triangle. I would place another ball in the opposite corner pocket,
and would jump the cueball over the triangle and the line of 10 balls to
pocket the ball in the corner (my record was the triangle and 16 balls). I
find that the Bunjee makes the jump shot too easy. I will agree that there
is skill in the jump shot, and that is a point that has never been
contested. The Bunjee gives the intermediate player a great advantage, as
they won't have to put nearly as much time into learning the proper
technique of jumping a ball.
As far as you running 8 in One-pocket, that is a testament to your skill as
a player. There have been players that have ran a rack with a broom handle
(excellent jump cue, BTW). This shows their skill as a player. Don't get
me wrong. If two players want to play each other with jump cues, then by
all means go ahead. Ideally, the use of the jump cue should be up to the
players. If you and I were to play, we'd have to come to a unanimous
decision as to if jump cues were allowed. If either one of us said no, then
the cue can't be used. All of the tournaments I play in (local tourneys) do
not allow any form of jump shot, which I think is a miscarriage of justice.
However, if I match up with a player that can play, we'll turn a blind eye
to jump shots. Unfortunately, the league that I belong to (CPA - Canadian
division of the APA) doesn't allow jump cues to be used. If the rules
allowed for them, I would use one. I'm not changing my opinion - I'm just
letting you know where it comes from. I am not allowed to use a jump cue
anywhere, so my kicking game has had to become a lot better as a result. I
think this has done more for my game than any jump cue could have. When I
say that it's a crutch, I mean it. I don't recall calling it a toy. I've
called it a gimmick, which may have been poor terminology. For that, I
apologize.
John, I must say that you are a fun guy to chat
with..........................oh, oh. I think I may have opened myself to
some form of homo comment from Willie.
Shawn <---wants to know if John offers discounts on Instroke cases to
"debate" partners
"John Collins" <inst...@instroke.com> wrote in message
news:DyX58.74$bm3....@news.uswest.net...
S. Armstrong
Now that's a cue that I would buy (especially for 9-ball).
Shawn
"John Collins" <inst...@instroke.com> wrote in message
news:48Y58.101$bm3....@news.uswest.net...
Joe V
>If we are then debating just the cue then are you saying that a cue which
>allows for better control of a legal shot is bad for the game? Should we be
>playing without leather tips and chalk then if this is your contention?
>
Ok one more time... its not a legal shot EVERYWHERE. Its not even a
legal shot in some "tours". Get over it, not everyone plays Colorado rules
pool where 3 scratches DOESN'T lose a game. But either way, you like the
cue, and there are some people who do not.
>> First off, knowing you, if you did you would be out marketing it as the
>next
>> great thing in pool.
>
>What does this mean? Why then do I specifically warn customers on the
>Bunjee website that they should not consider a jump cue to be a "magic
>wand". I do in fact have a full length cue that jumps as well as a Bunjee.
>I have in fact gambled and won money using this cue exclusively. You still
>did not answer my question which was if such cue were available would it
>then be unfair to have and use one?<<
It means if you truely developed one John, you would be hawking it as a
product. Would it be unfair?? I wouldn't call it unfair. Besides if you can't
use it half the time anyways due to rules and restrictions, what difference
does
it make?
>I agree, as long as the device does no damage to any other part of the
>playing equipment with normal use. The jump rods you speak of were indeed
>"hippity hop" cues to use Lou's description. These rods required the barest
>minimum of skill to use and offered virtually no control over the cueball.<<
Learning to jump in 10 minutes = barest minimum of skill. I saw plenty of good
position jumpers with a jump rod. Infact the one I have came through Sammy
Jones
areguable the best jumper I have ever seen and got alot of his rep using a
"rod".
>The evolution of these rods which are the jump cues of today are far superior
in that they allow a player to play pool.<<
Allow a player to play pool?? Hmmm I think if balls were intended to leave the
surface
we would cut pocket holes in an air hockey table.
Joe
John Collins
> John,
>
> Good response. You make some really good points.
Thank you.
I have invested the time
> to learn how to jump with my cue (the cue that I play with after the
break),
> and that's what I feel is fair. With the Bunjee, I had a trick shot that
I
> loved to do. I would put the cueball about 5 inches out of the corner
> pocket, and would put the triangle down, then line up 10 balls at the head
> of the triangle. I would place another ball in the opposite corner
pocket,
> and would jump the cueball over the triangle and the line of 10 balls to
> pocket the ball in the corner (my record was the triangle and 16 balls).
I
> find that the Bunjee makes the jump shot too easy. I will agree that
there
> is skill in the jump shot, and that is a point that has never been
> contested.
>The Bunjee gives the intermediate player a great advantage, as
> they won't have to put nearly as much time into learning the proper
> technique of jumping a ball.
>
Or a disadvantage if they truly disregard learning the limitations of
jumping with a full cue as well as a major disadvantage if they disregard
the kicking game.
> As far as you running 8 in One-pocket, that is a testament to your skill
as
> a player.
I thought so! Thanks :-)
There have been players that have ran a rack with a broom handle
> (excellent jump cue, BTW). This shows their skill as a player. Don't get
> me wrong. If two players want to play each other with jump cues, then by
> all means go ahead. Ideally, the use of the jump cue should be up to the
> players. If you and I were to play, we'd have to come to a unanimous
> decision as to if jump cues were allowed. If either one of us said no,
then
> the cue can't be used. All of the tournaments I play in (local tourneys)
do
> not allow any form of jump shot, which I think is a miscarriage of
justice.
> However, if I match up with a player that can play, we'll turn a blind eye
> to jump shots. Unfortunately, the league that I belong to (CPA - Canadian
> division of the APA) doesn't allow jump cues to be used. If the rules
> allowed for them, I would use one. I'm not changing my opinion - I'm just
> letting you know where it comes from. I am not allowed to use a jump cue
> anywhere, so my kicking game has had to become a lot better as a result.
I
> think this has done more for my game than any jump cue could have.
The APA also does not allow jump cues so that is the same. As far as how
good your game is in any one area, I think that this is your responsibility
to work on all areas which are important to you. I don't neglect my kicking
game in any way.
>When I say that it's a crutch, I mean it.
It can be. Just like anything else. The diamond system can be a crutch or
a tool.
I don't recall calling it a toy. I've
> called it a gimmick, which may have been poor terminology. For that, I
> apologize.
>
Thanks, I appreciate it. IMO a device that makes a ball jump with little
control over the cueball is a gimmick. One that allows control is a cue,
albeit a special one.
> John, I must say that you are a fun guy to chat
> with..........................oh, oh. I think I may have opened myself to
> some form of homo comment from Willie.
>
> Shawn <---wants to know if John offers discounts on Instroke cases to
> "debate" partners
Maybe ;-)
John
Ron Shepard
class...@aol.com (Joe V) wrote:
> Allow a player to play pool?? Hmmm I think if balls were intended to leave the
> surface
> we would cut pocket holes in an air hockey table.
Just to avoid any revisionist history in this thread, the jump shot was
used in pool and billiards before the leather tip was invented.
$.02 -Ron Shepard
Smorgass Bored
You can prove that your skill beats the jump cue by playing tighter
safes. Of course by then I might have invented a cue that a player can
just throw at a rack like a javelin and make eight balls in one shot.
John
(*<~ OR, someone else will invent it and you will simply copy it and
then have it made cheaper overseas......
NEXT,
Doug
~>*(((>< Big fish eat Little fish ><)))*<~
sheldoncue
>>"lfigueroa" lfig...@att.net writes:
>
>>JB reports:
>>
>>> In less than 10 minutes I could jump a ball 2 ball widths away!
>>
>>If this isn't a testimonial as to why jumping with one of these pogo sticks
>>takes less skill than kicking, I don't know what is.
>>
>>Lou Figueroa
>>
>
> Lou,
>
> I couldn't agree more.
>
> Joe (----can kick with the best of them
>
I know a guy that thinks the same way, and can't make a jump shot to save his
ass! I know because he asked me to teach him. He gave up and tried to make it
hard for people to use them by getting jumping banned.
A jump cue is merely a tool. Those that piss and moan about them being unfair
probably don't have the ability to learn how to use one properly.
Sure, most people can learn to get over a ball fairly easily, but they will
not be accurate or consistent. The same can be said for kicks, as some have
mentioned, using the diamonds and other systems, most can learn to hit a ball
pretty quickly. kicking the ball in or kicking safe, however requires skill,
as does actually pocketing a ball or getting safe after a jump. Equipment and
tools will always evolve, Smart players take advantage. Then have to listen
to the "purists" call them hacks or cheaters because they have learned
something new.
I personally love to jump balls... It ads a new dimension to the game! Why
not take advantage of it? A well shot jump is exciting to watch, and might
help spark interest in non-players to take up the game.
I will agree that a jump cue can be abused, sometimes the kick is a better
play. But if someone is doing this, I don't mind at all, it just makes it
easier for me to beat them.
If you are going live in the past, go ahead. Just quit whining about those
that want to move forward. Actually don't quit, its pretty entertaining.
Sheldon
lfigueroa
few years back. As I've said somewhere else in this discussion, I just
don't play enough 9ball to make it worthwhile to carry one of these things
around. If I did, I would -- it's certainly not the money, or even an
issue of investing the time to learn to use one. So for moi, it's just a
philosophical issue. And yes, I can jump pretty good with my own cue and
the pogo sticks.
For me, jump sticks are akin to something like high compression golf balls
that allows a tyro to drive 400 yards. It makes things too easy and
undermines the skill in the game.
I think in every sport (other than caber tossing :-), you'll always have
equipment innovation issues. The issue that those playing and governing the
sport will always have to deal with are: which pieces of equipment enrich
the sport, and which reduce it. Right now, pool doesn't have a strong
governing body like the PGA, so we're stuck with entrepreneurs who try and
circumvent the rules about things like tip composition and come up with
goofy things like jump cues.
IMO, jump sticks reduce the sport. I also think that someday, they will be
banned. At least I hope so.
Lou Figueroa
"jdub" <removeextr...@columbus.rr.com> wrote in message
news:nlT58.12207$PE.47...@typhoon.columbus.rr.com...
lfigueroa
pocket tournaments and have never seen a jump cue used. I know Joey owns a
jump stick and we practiced together for several hours at this last Derby
and I don't recall him using it. Also, I don't recall it ever coming up at
a players meeting. In tournament play, I have shot jump shots (including a
jump bank :-) with my playing cue, but those are rarities. I suppose if I
were in a match and someone whipped out a pogo stick, I really wouldn't
care.
Lou Figueroa
"Ron Shepard" <ron-s...@NOSPAM.attbi.com> wrote in message
news:ron-shepard-30...@192.168.123.47...
lfigueroa
Lou Figueroa
"Joe V" <class...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:20020130141059...@mb-mv.aol.com...
lfigueroa
events and tours. Then all these pogo sticks can join their cousin, the
jump rod, collecting dust in the closet.
Lou Figueroa
"Joe V" <class...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:20020130191640...@mb-cg.aol.com...
lfigueroa
This is like saying Bill Gates would be "slightly tainted in an argument
about Windows vs Linux.
Lou Figueroa
"John Collins" <inst...@instroke.com> wrote in message
news:DyX58.74$bm3....@news.uswest.net...
lfigueroa
It's more like saturated through and through.
Here's my bottom line: for me, this is purely a philosophical issue -- I
can jump with and without one of your pogo sticks. If I'm playing someone
and they whip out a pogo stick, I could care less.
But for me, jump sticks reduce the game. And here's the key part: there
are obviously a lot of people in the sport who feel exactly the same way and
that is why more and more events and tours are banning them and this is
becoming a non-issue.
I think, most deservedly, they're on the way out :-)
Lou Figueroa
"John Collins" <inst...@instroke.com> wrote in message
news:T3Y58.100$bm3....@news.uswest.net...
lfigueroa
thinks it's a great idea and we can even keep track of how many times you
get a chance to use it and the results you achieve :-)
Lou Figueroa
"John Collins" <inst...@instroke.com> wrote in message
news:48Y58.101$bm3....@news.uswest.net...
Jack Stein
the cue turns a normal shooter into a super draw artist simply because
the cue allows him to get lower, avoid miscues, and avoid unwanted masse
curves caused by a non-level cue? Should that be legal also?
I think jump cues should be illegal myself, and always cringe when I see
someone pull one out of their case, not because of fear they might get
out of jail, but because gimmicks don't impress me. I always say "nice
shot" when I guy jumps successfully with his cue, but never say a damn
thing when they do the same thing with a jump cue. I think the majority
of players feel this way, even a lot that use a jump cue. Plenty use
one because they know the advantage they give if the opponent has one
and they don't.
Jack
> "Matthew Tyler Fox" <mt...@fas.harvard.edu> wrote in message
> > Adding a new piece of equipment that makes it easier to get around
> > your opponents shit-hooks is a nice idea, but I think the argument
> > is that sometimes there is a legitimate safe that requires a jump,
> > and maybe to jump the ball you should have to practice a lot
> > instead of just picking up another stick.
> >
> > Matt <-- not quite a purist
> John Collins wrote:
> I totally agree with you. Now if the jump cue in question worked by itself
> then I would say that it should be banned. However the jump cue does not.
> It requires practice and skill to use it correctly. Books on kicking
> systems abound and instructors are available all over the country. Should
> we ban any instruction or systems simply because they give one player who
> takes advantage of them more tools than one who does not?
>
> John
--
http://jbstein.com
http://chrismillerdolls.com
http://dcswindows.com
John Collins
"Smorgass Bored" <Smorga...@webtv.net> wrote in message
news:25374-3C...@storefull-125.iap.bryant.webtv.net...
That's right. I might do that. It's called free market capitalism. Do you
have a problem with that concept? How many jobs have you created for anyone
anywhere ever? I guess you don't realy want to go down that road with me
again. Your friend, the master knows all about copying doesn't he.
If you want to discuss this rationally feel free, I'm interested in seeing
if you can do more than snipe.
John
Smorgass Bored
<mercifully snipped>
(*<~ I just tell 'em, I don't 'splain 'em...
Kirk Douglass
> >I do in fact have a full length cue that jumps as well as a Bunjee.
> >I have in fact gambled and won money using this cue exclusively. You
still
> >did not answer my question which was if such cue were available would it
> >then be unfair to have and use one?<<
"Joe V" <class...@aol.com> wrote>
> It means if you truely developed one John, you would be hawking it as a
> product. Would it be unfair?? I wouldn't call it unfair. Besides if you
can't
> use it half the time anyways due to rules and restrictions, what
difference
> does
> it make?
If John's new cue is full length why would any rules prohibit it's use? I
know of tournaments that prohibit "shortened" jump cues but have never heard
of a tournament banning jump shots with a full cue. I have a Bunjee tip on
my Falcon break/jump cue and can make most jump shots with my full cue that
I can with a Bunjee Jumper & hit the shots more accurately with the full
cue. To pose a question of mine that went unanswered, should it be illegal
for me to use this full cue since it is a huge advantage over most other
full cues?
Kirk
John Collins
> "Slightly tainted" ?!?!?!
>
> This is like saying Bill Gates would be "slightly tainted in an argument
> about Windows vs Linux.
>
> Lou Figueroa
>
I'll concede that. We are the market leader in jump cues.
John
John Collins
> John, if we ever play, you can use your pogo stick all you want. In fact,
I
> thinks it's a great idea and we can even keep track of how many times you
> get a chance to use it and the results you achieve :-)
>
> Lou Figueroa
You made my point quite nicely, thank you.
John
jdub
> Jim, I've tried several, including the mini jump rods that were popular a
> few years back. As I've said somewhere else in this discussion, I just
> don't play enough 9ball to make it worthwhile to carry one of these things
> around. If I did, I would -- it's certainly not the money, or even an
> issue of investing the time to learn to use one. So for moi, it's just a
> philosophical issue. And yes, I can jump pretty good with my own cue and
> the pogo sticks.
>
> For me, jump sticks are akin to something like high compression golf balls
> that allows a tyro to drive 400 yards. It makes things too easy and
> undermines the skill in the game.
I'm stumped - wht is a "tyro"?
But beyond that, with every equipment improvement comes a cost. I played
with a guy who was playing with British balls (smaller, adds about 15-20%
distance. He loved his drives, but his 25 yard side-to-side misses now
became 35 yards. His ability to get it close on greens was eliminated by
the distance (155 yard 9 irons) which provided more opportunity for error.
My sense is that if making jumping "doable" for the average player makes the
game more fun for those players, then I'm all for it. Heck, I get drilled
enough by the good players with their 2 table length draws,
CB-parabola-like-arcs-after-contact uncanny ability to break up clusters,
etc..
To me, it's as simple as "Set a standard (min/max length, weight, etc.) and
let the manufacturers work within those guidelines". That seems to be what
BCA did. From that point forward, if a manufacturer can sell people cues
with phrases like sweet spot, increased power, ultra stiff and super whippy,
who cares. It's like all of the golf gimmick clubs, until you learn the
secret of golf (and yes, all of you golfers, there is a secret that 98% of
the people never really grasp), you're simply accomodating for your own
inadequacies with money. Jump cues do not provide 'gimmies', they're simply
a legal and effective component of the game.
--Jim
jdub
What about those black tubular Cue Extenders? I know of one player of
somewhat normal stature that pulls one out 3-10 times every match. And
ditto for bridges. Why shouldn't the rules say "Only cues and hands". It
seems to me that a cue extender or a bridge compromise the purity of the
game (foreign objects) far more than a jump cue. All these players should
learn to shoot opposite handed to get out of these tough situations. I
could see bridges on 5x10 and larger snooker tables, but c'mon, we're only
talking 4.5' x 9' at most. Bridges are for sissies and grannies. Cue
extenders are gimmicks as well.
--Jim
John Collins
> "Joe V" <class...@aol.com> wrote in message
> news:20020130191640...@mb-cg.aol.com...
> > >John Collins" inst...@instroke.com writes:
> >
> > >If we are then debating just the cue then are you saying that a cue
which
> > >allows for better control of a legal shot is bad for the game? Should
we
> be
> > >playing without leather tips and chalk then if this is your contention?
> > >
> >
> > Ok one more time... its not a legal shot EVERYWHERE. Its not even a
> > legal shot in some "tours". Get over it, not everyone plays Colorado
rules
> > pool where 3 scratches DOESN'T lose a game. But either way, you like the
> > cue, and there are some people who do not.
> >
This is a newsflash. Thanks for the insight Joe. You just don't get it do
you? This debate is not about whether I like it and you don't. It is about
whether innovation in pool is to be rewarded or punished. You would like to
see it punished based on your personal beliefs. Some of us actually invest
in this game other than only "hawking" products. Some of us actually care
about the dynamics of why things happen the way they do. Because of people
like me and people much smarter than I am you benefit today from better
cloth, rails, tips, chalk, balls and cues. God forbid if something comes
along in your lifetime that changes your 'set in stone' notions of how the
game 'should' be played, of what the 'real' game is or is about. The real
game is about pocketing balls in pockets hence the name "pocket billiards".
The only thing that is consistent about the game since it's inception is
that the goal is still to pocket balls using implemts. Those implements
have changed considerably over time but the premise has stayed the same, a
human must use a stick to manipulate a ball to achieve the goal. That's it.
> > >> First off, knowing you, if you did you would be out marketing it as
the
> > >next
> > >> great thing in pool.
> > >
> > >What does this mean? Why then do I specifically warn customers on the
> > >Bunjee website that they should not consider a jump cue to be a "magic
> > >wand". I do in fact have a full length cue that jumps as well as a
> Bunjee.
> > >I have in fact gambled and won money using this cue exclusively. You
> still
> > >did not answer my question which was if such cue were available would
it
> > >then be unfair to have and use one?<<
> >
> > It means if you truely developed one John, you would be hawking it as a
> > product. Would it be unfair?? I wouldn't call it unfair. Besides if you
> can't
> > use it half the time anyways due to rules and restrictions, what
> difference
> > does
> > it make?
Oh but the rules even in youyr "prestigious" Tri-State tour do not forbid
jump shots just "specialty" cues. So when I show up with a playing cue and
use according to your rules and it truly does work better than what you have
would it be unfair, would it be banned?
How do you know what the balls were ever "intended" to do? This game
evolved from croquet and the balls in croquet certainly do not always roll
placidly accross the lawn. Your argument is so weak here. If jumping balls
is such a travesty on the game then why don't your precious tournaments and
tours simply amend the rules so that mediocre safety play and luck is not
rewarded. Why not go back to two foul nine ball with a push-out option on
every shot? Why not play call everything and spot everything? Oh I know
why because then we couldn't run a 64 man board through on a weekend.
Matches might actually be decided mostly on skill. If you are going to
decide what the game is supposed to be about for us all then suggest
something worthwhile.
It is so boring to have you drone on here about how jump cues defile the
"game" and have you post no credible alternative. Why didn't anyone invent
Jump Cues in the 40's? Because there was no need to fill. The rules are
such that there is a credible need. What have you done for the sport Joe?
We are friends and I enjoy debating with you here but I resent your constant
insinuations and accusations that everything I do is commercially motivated.
Naturally I am protecting my interests by arguing for the merits of products
we sell but I only sell them because I believe in their value to the player.
That's why I don't make every gadget there is. You have been here as long
or longer than me. You know full well that my arguments have always been
consistent and that I will speak out on many topics other than those that
concern our products. My record speaks for itself. And my sig line does
not always carry an advertisement for my business. This time it will.
John Collins
Owner/Designer Instroke Sports LLC
www.instroke.com www.bunjeejump.com
John Collins
> I think more and more, you're going to see jump sticks banned from more
> events and tours. Then all these pogo sticks can join their cousin, the
> jump rod, collecting dust in the closet.
>
> Lou Figueroa
>
If so then it will be the way it goes. I think it's sad that the better
something works the more it is hated. It seems to me that people like you
prefer to see a safe mediocrity rather than true innovation. Golf balls
might be invented that fly 400 yards but what does it might matter if the
guy hitting the ball drives it 400 yards in the wrong direction. Do you
honestly think that a 400 yard golf ball is going to beat Tiger Woods? If I
can drive the ball 400 with a special ball then Tiger can drive it 600 and
still beat me all day.
It sure is a good thing for you that you can enjoy pool using a cue that
evolved from it's cousin, the mace. How nice for you that leather tips and
chalk were accepted long before you ever thought about playing pool. Now
you get the privelege of condeming those things which would make the game
better.
Nice that your pool ancestors gave you that comfort. It is a good thing
that they recognized that more control over the cueball meant more skill
could be displayed. There are plenty of examples of this in other sports
but you are not interested. So languish in your presumed superiority and
mediocrity. I am sure you will have fun with that concept.
John
Ron Shepard
Douglass" <kdou...@NOSPAMcolumbus.rr.com> wrote:
> If John's new cue is full length why would any rules prohibit it's use? I
> know of tournaments that prohibit "shortened" jump cues but have never heard
> of a tournament banning jump shots with a full cue. I have a Bunjee tip on
> my Falcon break/jump cue and can make most jump shots with my full cue that
> I can with a Bunjee Jumper & hit the shots more accurately with the full
> cue. To pose a question of mine that went unanswered, should it be illegal
> for me to use this full cue since it is a huge advantage over most other
> full cues?
I think jumping with a full-length cue is more accurate than with a short
cue. The reason everyone uses a short cue is because it is lighter and
allows the player to jump with less speed, which means there are shots
that are possible with the light cue that aren't possible with the heavy
cue. I've always thought that a full-length cue (with a hollow handle or
something) that was as light as a jump cue would jump just the same.
If I need the accuracy and the shot is possible with it, I usually jump
with my break cue instead of my jump cue.
$.02 -Ron Shepard
Joe V
>This is a newsflash. Thanks for the insight Joe. You just don't get it do
>you? This debate is not about whether I like it and you don't. It is about
>whether innovation in pool is to be rewarded or punished. You would like to
>see it punished based on your personal beliefs.
Personally I do not see it as innovation. This is where everyone taking
place in this debate differs. I would like to see it "consistant" not punished.
I do not see the merits of jumping as you do, but as even you have admitted,
I do not have a personal stake in the outcome.
>Some of us actually invest in this game other than only "hawking" products.
Some of us actually care about the dynamics of why things happen the way they
do<<
Well some of us do not think jumping is one of these things. You may want to
call
it a legitimate shot and thats ok. Do it with a full cue, or make all types of
devices for
jumping legal.
>Oh but the rules even in youyr "prestigious" Tri-State tour do not forbid
>jump shots just "specialty" cues. So when I show up with a playing cue and
>use according to your rules and it truly does work better than what you have
>would it be unfair, would it be banned?<<
I don't think it would be, but I am not the one who makes that decision. Maybe
we should start a thread to see what rules are actually in effect at tours, and
local tourney's. If you jumped with a "full" cue I wouldn't give 2 shits,
especially if it was your playing cue.
>If jumping balls is such a travesty on the game then why don't your precious
tournaments and
>tours simply amend the rules so that mediocre safety play and luck is not
>rewarded.<<
Luck of the rolls have been around way longer than your jump cue.
> Why not go back to two foul nine ball with a push-out option on every shot?
Why not play call everything and spot everything? Oh I know why because then
we couldn't run a 64 man board through on a weekend.<<
Thats right, and pool would be tv-unfriendly and it would push pool back 10
steps to tv acceptence.
>Matches might actually be decided mostly on skill. If you are going to
>decide what the game is supposed to be about for us all then suggest
>something worthwhile.
Well I don't know where you play, but most tourneys I see are decided on skill.
Maybe
1% of those games someone gets a win on a luck safety. But considerably more
get by on a jump to contact to avoid three fouls.
>Why didn't anyone invent Jump Cues in the 40's? Because there was no need to
fill. The rules are such that there is a credible need.<<
What the hell are you talking about? You think no one got accidental hooks and
rolls in the 40's? Didn't I just read in another post jump shots have been
around in pool for a long time?
>What have you done for the sport Joe?<<
Well for starters I haven't dilluted pools integrity. I do more for players
than I do the sport, but if I ever get the chance to vote on a rule banning
jump cues I will try and make my contribution then.
>We are friends and I enjoy debating with you here but I resent your constant
>insinuations and accusations that everything I do is commercially motivated.<<
Hmm well John, since I know you and we are friends, and like you I call them as
I see them. I will try not to insinuate and I will be more direct.
Joe
Visit www.classiccues.com for a vast selection of collectible cues. Featuring
cues by Skip Weston.... "No special joints, no special shafts, just a special
cue", cues by Paul Mottey and many fine collectables.
Joe V
>If John's new cue is full length why would any rules prohibit it's use? I
>know of tournaments that prohibit "shortened" jump cues but have never heard
>of a tournament banning jump shots with a full cue. I have a Bunjee tip on
>my Falcon break/jump cue and can make most jump shots with my full cue that
>I can with a Bunjee Jumper & hit the shots more accurately with the full
>cue. To pose a question of mine that went unanswered, should it be illegal
>for me to use this full cue since it is a huge advantage over most other
>full cues?
>
>Kirk
>
No, if a full cue can be played with, and used as a jumper, I don't think
anyone
would complain.
Joe V
>I think jump cues should be illegal myself, and always cringe when I see
>someone pull one out of their case, not because of fear they might get
>out of jail, but because gimmicks don't impress me. I always say "nice
>shot" when I guy jumps successfully with his cue, but never say a damn
>thing when they do the same thing with a jump cue. I think the majority
>of players feel this way, even a lot that use a jump cue. Plenty use
>one because they know the advantage they give if the opponent has one
>and they don't.
>
>Jack
I do agree, and I will go one better. Legalize jump cues, but if during a jump
with one
of these gimmicks you shoot the cueball off the table, you lose.
Alex Kanapilly
> talking 4.5' x 9' at most. Bridges are for sissies and grannies. Cue
> extenders are gimmicks as well.
>
> --Jim
Hey some of us get short hooked.. or even belly hooked.
Alex
Ron Shepard
class...@aol.com (Joe V) wrote:
> >Why didn't anyone invent Jump Cues in the 40's? Because there was no need to
> fill. The rules are such that there is a credible need.<<
>
> What the hell are you talking about? You think no one got accidental hooks and
> rolls in the 40's? Didn't I just read in another post jump shots have been
> around in pool for a long time?
It is the ball-in-hand and 3-foul rules in the modern game that makes the
difference in how important kicks and jumps are in the game. Without
these rules, it didn't really matter much if you were hooked, you just
rolled the cue ball to another place (either a tough place or a neutral
place, depending on the rules), and played the rest of the game from
there. A hook never really resulted in less than a 50/50 situation. You
didn't need to know how to kick or jump with the old rules. IMO, these
rules in the modern game are excellent examples of innovation that
benefited 9-ball in particular and pool in general.
Of course, not everyone agrees, and there are tradeoffs. Now, the
eagle-eyed kid doesn't have as much of an advantage in 9-ball, as he would
have 50 years ago. 50 years ago, 9-ball was more of a shotmaker's game,
with tactics playing a less important role. Now, with the BIH and 3-foul
rules, you see 9-ball players learning how to play 3-cushion just to
improve their ability to kick, and you see them practicing masse and jump
shots to add more weapons to their arsenals. I think that is progress,
but as I said, not everyone agrees.
If buying a jump cue meant that you bought skills instead of earning them
the right way, with practice, then I might feel differently. But after
owning a jump cue for over a year, I still haven't mastered its use.
$.02 -Ron Shepard
John Collins
> In article <20020131124147...@mb-cg.aol.com>,
> class...@aol.com (Joe V) wrote:
>
> > >Why didn't anyone invent Jump Cues in the 40's? Because there was no
need to
> > fill. The rules are such that there is a credible need.<<
> >
> > What the hell are you talking about? You think no one got accidental
hooks and
> > rolls in the 40's? Didn't I just read in another post jump shots have
been
> > around in pool for a long time?
>
Yes Joe, but the rules were such that the penalty for not hitting the object
ball in nine ball was automatic ball in hand. The incoming player could
simply push out. No jump cue needed. In the dominant game of 14.1 the
shooter could legally shoot at any ball on the table at any time. Also no
jump cue needed. Of course jump shots were around just rarely needed or
played. Under the current rules jump shots and jump cues are a much needed
part of the dominant game of nine ball.
I am responding to your post through Ron's. If there is more to yours would
you please repost it as apparently I cannot see your original posts.
John
Joe V
to pocket a ball? I mean really, if you had the "skill" to jump and pocket a
ball and continue your run, you wouldn't take it? C'mon who you kidding?
Joe (---doesn't think the game changed that much
lfigueroa
"lfigueroa" <lfig...@att.net> wrote in message news:...
> A tyro is a beginner or novice. And maybe the golf ball was a bad
analogy.
> How about the corked bat someone else mention? In any case, I still think
> jump sticks reduce the game and more and more folks are seeing that and
> banning them from tournaments and tours -- so I know I'm not alone on
this
> one. Time will tell.
>
> Lou Figueroa
>
> "jdub" <removeextr...@columbus.rr.com> wrote in message
> news:KYd68.15299$PE.58...@typhoon.columbus.rr.com...
> >
> > "lfigueroa" <lfig...@att.net> wrote in message
> > > > "lfigueroa" <lfig...@att.net> wrote in message
> > > > news:F9S58.1314$0J6....@bgtnsc04-news.ops.worldnet.att.net...
> > > > > I don't usually do this, but...
> > > > >
> > > > > "John Collins" <inst...@instroke.com> wrote in message
> > > > > news:XmI58.134$rN2.1...@news.uswest.net...
> > > > > >
> > > > > > "lfigueroa" <lfig...@att.net> wrote in message
lfigueroa
"lfigueroa" <lfig...@att.net> wrote in message news:...
> No. It's not mediocrity vs innovation. Or even superiority vs
mediocrity.
>
> It's reducing an elegant game of skill to gimmicks.
>
> And, as I said in another post, perhaps the golf ball was a bad analogy to
> begin with. And since you've pretty much admitted to being tainted
through
> and through, perhaps, so is your view point on this subject and you should
> recluse yourself from the discussion (or at least temper the accusations
> you're flinging around with such great abandon).
>
> Lou Figueroa
>
> "John Collins" <inst...@instroke.com> wrote in message
> news:hse68.314$804....@news.uswest.net...
> >
> > "lfigueroa" <lfig...@att.net> wrote in message
Jay McVinney
of the hour long players meeting making the point that jumps would ONLY be
executed with the playing cue. No jump cues, no switching to your break
cue, only the playing cue. In a key match against Tommy Kennedy, the
opponent (I forget who it was, but it was on the feature table and is in an
accustats video) switched cues to his break cue and executed the jump shot.
He then walked over and switched back to his playing cue at which point
Tommy called him on it and took ball in hand and ran the table, eventually
going on to win the match. I asked Tommy about it afterwards and he told me
that he wasn't going to call it if it was an honest mistake, but that by
going and switching back, the other player showed that he intended to use
the break cue to jump with.
Another point here. I play against Howard Vickery a lot when he is down in
the area I live in. He has a jump rod, but in the two years we've been
meeting, I've never seen it come out of his case.
Jay McVinney
"lfigueroa" <lfig...@att.net> wrote in message
news:2sb68.3064$zT.2...@bgtnsc06-news.ops.worldnet.att.net...
> Ron, I've played in several US Opens and Derby Classics and many smaller
one
> pocket tournaments and have never seen a jump cue used. I know Joey owns
a
> jump stick and we practiced together for several hours at this last Derby
> and I don't recall him using it. Also, I don't recall it ever coming up
at
> a players meeting. In tournament play, I have shot jump shots (including
a
> jump bank :-) with my playing cue, but those are rarities. I suppose if I
> were in a match and someone whipped out a pogo stick, I really wouldn't
> care.
>
> Lou Figueroa
>
> "Ron Shepard" <ron-s...@NOSPAM.attbi.com> wrote in message
> news:ron-shepard-30...@192.168.123.47...
> > In article <fHw58.58$zT....@bgtnsc06-news.ops.worldnet.att.net>,
> > "lfigueroa" <lfig...@att.net> wrote:
> >
> > > JB reports:
> > >
> > > > In less than 10 minutes I could jump a ball 2 ball widths away!
> > >
> > > If this isn't a testimonial as to why jumping with one of these pogo
> sticks
> > > takes less skill than kicking, I don't know what is.
> >
> > I don't know. He could probably learn to hit an object ball with an
easy
> > kick shot in 10 minutes too. Fact is, most people don't practice any
> > shot, kicks or jumps.
> >
> > I've had my jump cue for a little over a year now, and I do practice
with
> > it from time to time. Like any other shot, I don't practice with it
> > enough. One of my practice shots is to shoot spot shots while jumping
> > over an object ball on the head string with the cue ball a diamond away
> > from the blocking object ball. On my bad days, I make about 1 in 4
shots,
> > on my good days I make about 1 in 3. When I first started, I made this
> > shot about 10% of the time. My feeling is that it is easier (more
> > consistent) to hit this shot with a kick, but it is easier to pocket the
> > ball with a jump. I'm guessing that this is a 50% or better shot for
the
> > pros. My 25% to 30% success rate does not give me an advantage over the
> > pro, like most other shots, I'm still playing catch-up. And I have seen
> > significant improvement from when I first started to my current ability,
> > so a jump cue is not the silver bullet that eliminates the need for
skill
> > or practice. Also, I notice that when I'm jumping well, I'm also doing
> > other things well that day too, so whatever skills are required for
> > jumping carry over to other aspects of the game.
> >
> > How often do you see jump cues in one-pocket games? It doesn't seem
very
> > often to me. Are they outlawed in most one-pocket tournaments?
> >
> > $.02 -Ron Shepard
>
>
>
>
>
Texas Willee
air for a jump shot.
Ya didnt need a special cue for that shot.
Texas Willee
"Joe V" <class...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:20020201062533...@mb-fc.aol.com...
Joe V
>Just for the record, at the 2001 US Open, they spent almost 10 minutes out
>of the hour long players meeting making the point that jumps would ONLY be
>executed with the playing cue. No jump cues, no switching to your break
>cue, only the playing cue. In a key match against Tommy Kennedy, the
>opponent (I forget who it was, but it was on the feature table and is in an
>accustats video) switched cues to his break cue and executed the jump shot.
>He then walked over and switched back to his playing cue at which point
>Tommy called him on it and took ball in hand and ran the table, eventually
>going on to win the match. I asked Tommy about it afterwards and he told me
>that he wasn't going to call it if it was an honest mistake, but that by
>going and switching back, the other player showed that he intended to use
>the break cue to jump with.
>
>Another point here. I play against Howard Vickery a lot when he is down in
>the area I live in. He has a jump rod, but in the two years we've been
>meeting, I've never seen it come out of his case.
>
>Jay McVinney
Well John, I think this tourney is a little more "prestigeous" than the
tri-state tour don't you?
But don't you also display, or have displayed in the past here? Would that not
be against the same business directive that you mention in a previous post
concerning the tri-state tour and your decision not to sponsor it for lack of
allowing a jump cue.
Joe (---thanks Jay immensly for this tidbit of info
John Collins
"Jay McVinney" <comp...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:8%w68.500723$oj3.95...@typhoon.tampabay.rr.com...
> Just for the record, at the 2001 US Open, they spent almost 10 minutes out
> of the hour long players meeting making the point that jumps would ONLY be
> executed with the playing cue. No jump cues, no switching to your break
> cue, only the playing cue. In a key match against Tommy Kennedy, the
> opponent (I forget who it was, but it was on the feature table and is in
an
> accustats video) switched cues to his break cue and executed the jump
shot.
> He then walked over and switched back to his playing cue at which point
> Tommy called him on it and took ball in hand and ran the table, eventually
> going on to win the match. I asked Tommy about it afterwards and he told
me
> that he wasn't going to call it if it was an honest mistake, but that by
> going and switching back, the other player showed that he intended to use
> the break cue to jump with.
Also Just for the record, the ruling about jump cues at the US Open is at
the insistence of Earl Strickland, the tournament darling and Barry Behrman.
It is not democratic, the players are not allowed to vote on it. Tommy
Kennedy is a big proponent of the jump cue but he will play by the rules of
the US Open of course. I think patching the intended pocket in league is
silly but I will call somebody on it just like I called as well.
>
> Another point here. I play against Howard Vickery a lot when he is down
in
> the area I live in. He has a jump rod, but in the two years we've been
> meeting, I've never seen it come out of his case.
>
> Jay McVinney
>
And what does this mean? There are plenty of nights that I don't get the
jump cue out either. I also don't unpack my break cue half the time. Ray
Martin also wrote in the 99 Critical Shots that in all of his years he has
never seen a full masse' in tournament play. We all know however that in
competitive nine-ball in the time since the 99 Critical Shots was written
full masse' shots come up regularly. So nothing is permanent.
John
JoeyA
willing to hop a flight to come sweat it, especially if the jelly beans are
the number that you were challenging Lou with. He might break out in sweat
and you might wear him out with the Bunjee jumper (which I use and like-it's
almost like cheating)oops!
Anyway I wish you would quit woofing at Lou, BELLY UP TO THE TABLE LIKE A
MAN, set a date, an amount and detail what the game is and what it is for.
The rest of us could have an RSB tournament while you two go at it for the
jellybeans. I am ready to sweat some real RSB action.
JoeyA
P.S.?
Game to be played__________
With whom _________
How ______________
How many jellybeans_________
Race or ahead _________
When ________
Where ____________
Is there any penalty for cancelling? ( we call it crawfishing) _____________
That is something that a local poolroom owner is known for so beware if you
visit some of our establishments.
"John Collins" <inst...@instroke.com> wrote in message
news:loI58.136$rN2.1...@news.uswest.net...
>
> "lfigueroa" <lfig...@att.net> wrote in message
> news:OZF58.561$0J6....@bgtnsc04-news.ops.worldnet.att.net...
> > Luck is a huge part of nine ball. If you're going to play, you'd better
> be
> > ready to fade the shitouts by your opponent. Besides, you'll get your
> > share too.
> >
> > If you want less luck, try one pocket :-)
> >
> > Lou Figueroa
>
> When we play some one-hole get ready to fade the jump cue! :-)) You had
> better FREEZE the cueball to the stack every time.
>
> John
>
>
> >
> > "Kirk Douglass" <kdou...@NOSPAMcolumbus.rr.com> wrote in message
> > news:GSz58.11016$PE.38...@typhoon.columbus.rr.com...
> > > "lfigueroa" wrote
> > > > If this isn't a testimonial as to why jumping with one of these pogo
> > > sticks
> > > > takes less skill than kicking, I don't know what is.
> > > >
> > > > Lou Figueroa
> > >
> > > In the past 3-4 years that I've been using a break/jump cue, I've
found
> > that
> > > 70-75% of the time I execute a jump shot my opponent has either "shit
> > > hooked" me or played a very "loose" safety (not freezing me against a
> > ball).
> > > In most of these cases the only way to kick at the ball is 3 or more
> > rails.
> > > > > air and for a couple Sundays in a row I did get over a full ball
> > > > > lot steeper- punch it-right over! In less than 10 minutes I could
> jump
> > a
JoeyA
JoeyA
> Ron, I've played in several US Opens and Derby Classics and many smaller
one
> pocket tournaments and have never seen a jump cue used. I know Joey owns
a
> jump stick and we practiced together for several hours at this last Derby
> and I don't recall him using it. Also, I don't recall it ever coming up
at
> a players meeting. In tournament play, I have shot jump shots (including
a
> jump bank :-) with my playing cue, but those are rarities. I suppose if I
> were in a match and someone whipped out a pogo stick, I really wouldn't
> care.
>
> Lou Figueroa
>
> "Ron Shepard" <ron-s...@NOSPAM.attbi.com> wrote in message
> news:ron-shepard-30...@192.168.123.47...
> > In article <fHw58.58$zT....@bgtnsc06-news.ops.worldnet.att.net>,
> > "lfigueroa" <lfig...@att.net> wrote:
> >
> > > JB reports:
> > >
> > >
> sticks
> > > takes less skill than kicking, I don't know what is.
> >
jdub
Corked bats aren't. But let's use the 'legal' golf as an example. Why do
golf balls have dimples? Why is there a regulation regarding the min/max
numbers and depth? The reason was simple, a smooth golf ball has very
little tendency to hook or slice as the sidespin effect doesn't catch in the
air. Dimple depth affects it the same way. Yet the manufacturers have
experimented with different dimple designs (eg - Dunlop DDH have a
pentagonal patterning among groups of dimples). Different covers, windings,
cores, balance points, compression rations, etc.. Then there are things
like - on the pro tour, you can only use white balls. Why? TV viewing -
the orange and green balls look goofy on the grass. Some things are done
for the players, some for the spectators.
All of these things are within the guidelines of a ruling body's
specifications. The same is true of a jump cue.
When mini-tours, specific events, etc., elect to continue to convolute the
intentions of the ruling body (no jump cues, 5 balls to the rail on breaks,
etc.), but the ruling body doesn't issue official non-BCA approved spankings
and punish players who continue to participate in these, you then have a
real problem. What if next year's BCA, US Open, etc., had a format where
the top 32 BCA approved tournament money winners got byes into the 4ourth
round; and similarly, players who played non-BCA approved events lost
dollars (in their rankings)?
This is the challenge of pool and the BCA. Pool is perhaps the most precise
game in the world, yet as a culture we are constantly changing the games in
the local environment. Perhaps what is needed is a new, highly challenging
game, very watchable game, that the BCA develops from the ground up, with
only one set of rules.
--Jim
"lfigueroa" <lfig...@att.net> wrote in message
news:Fov68.4504$zT.3...@bgtnsc06-news.ops.worldnet.att.net...
John Collins
would be in Olathe. This little bit of stuff going through the thread right
now is nothing but fun. If you remember correctly through, when I did
seriously ask to play I offered to post the money and I offered a date and a
place. I was turned down, luckily it seems since I have been told that I am
no match for Lou. However anyone that knows me, knows that, in a trap or
not, I have never backed down from a game I initiated. So don't come at me
with "belly up like a man". My address has never changed, everyone in this
forum can find me.
If you are so interested in seeing us play then why don't you arrange for
Lou and yourself to fly to Denver. Negotiate a fair spot, since Lou has
already been knocked, and the amount with me. I'll freeze it up with a 50%
buy out for a no-show. If you truly want this to happen let's lock it up
privately and you can spread the details later.
John
"JoeyA" <jo...@SPAMLESSofficespecialties.net> wrote in message
news:3c5af...@nopics.sjc...
jdub
AND, just for the record. John and Instroke did not display at the US Open
in VA. I noticed Instroke had a booth, and perhaps the 9/11 events kept him
from coming in later, but with the exception of Instroke and Ted Harris (who
I believe had planned to come in late), every other vender was there for the
week. It seems to me that the conditions to be laided down in the players
meeting should be part of a pre-tournament contract with the players, not a
"Now that we've got you here, here are the rules for our game".
--Jim
Kirk Douglass
> Um, I don't recall me really woofing at Lou lately except to ask him if he
> would be in Olathe. This little bit of stuff going through the thread
right
> now is nothing but fun. If you remember correctly through, when I did
> seriously ask to play I offered to post the money and I offered a date and
a
> place. I was turned down, luckily it seems since I have been told that I
am
> no match for Lou. However anyone that knows me, knows that, in a trap or
> not, I have never backed down from a game I initiated. So don't come at
me
> with "belly up like a man". My address has never changed, everyone in
this
> forum can find me.
>
> If you are so interested in seeing us play then why don't you arrange for
> Lou and yourself to fly to Denver. Negotiate a fair spot, since Lou has
> already been knocked, and the amount with me. I'll freeze it up with a
50%
> buy out for a no-show. If you truly want this to happen let's lock it up
> privately and you can spread the details later.
>
> John
Amen, brother!!!
Woof, woof,
Kirk
lfigueroa
cigar...
Now THIS has got to be the funniest bit of backpeddling, I have ever seen!
John goes "WOOF, WOOF, WOOF," and now, it has been "nothing but fun."
BBBBBAAAAAWWWWWHHHHHAAAAAHHHHHAAAAA!!!!!!!!!!!!!
John now goes (bow wow) and says "I have never backed down from a game I
initiated..."
BUT NOW, i need a spot... negotiate a fair game.
BBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBWWWWWWWWWWW
AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAHHHHHHHHH
HHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA
HHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA
!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
HA! HA! HA! HA! HA! HA! HA! HA! HA! HA! HA! HA! HA! HA!
You are a joke.
Lou Figueroa
"John Collins" <inst...@instroke.com> wrote in message
news:oLG68.453$_l6.2...@news.uswest.net...
John Collins
me. I guess I should cave in now and say that I will fly to St. Louis and
donate to you to prove that you are the better man at pool and in life. I
guess you wouldn't want to play a fair game would you? I mean you heard I
wasn't in your league and was told I am not in yours. So now that you know
an even game is a lock you can bleat about how I am just a sucker.
Well Lou, here we are again. You are wrong as you often are, but I will
respond to your silly taunt for Joey's sake. I am going to make you one
offer and one offer only.
I will play you on March 1st at Paridise Billiards in Denver. Even up - 10
ahead for $3000. I will wire the money to Joey Agzugin's account on Monday
morning if you will do the same.
I will not respond to any other offer. This is not open to negotiation.
Who's the joke now? Let's see if your money and your heart is there? I
heard you can't fade the heat for the cash.
John Collins
"lfigueroa" <lfig...@att.net> wrote in message
news:m5J68.6101$I5.4...@bgtnsc05-news.ops.worldnet.att.net...
Mark0
> John woofs: >
>Yeah whatever, you're right, you are always right. You are too smart for
> me. I guess I should cave in now and say that I will fly to St. Louis and
> donate to you to prove that you are the better man at pool and in life. I
> guess you wouldn't want to play a fair game would you? I mean you heard I
> wasn't in your league and was told I am not in yours. So now that you
know
> an even game is a lock you can bleat about how I am just a sucker.
>
> Well Lou, here we are again. You are wrong as you often are, but I will
> respond to your silly taunt for Joey's sake. I am going to make you one
> offer and one offer only.
>
> I will play you on March 1st at Paridise Billiards in Denver. Even up -
10
> ahead for $3000. I will wire the money to Joey Agzugin's account on
Monday
> morning if you will do the same.
>
> I will not respond to any other offer. This is not open to negotiation.
> Who's the joke now? Let's see if your money and your heart is there? I
> heard you can't fade the heat for the cash.
>
> John Collins
>
John, don't misunderstand me. I think you are a terrific businessman with
great ethics.... BUT even *I* remember Lou saying that while he wasn't
interested in playing large, if you two were ever in the same place at the
same time he'd be happy to try and match up. So why post this claptrap?
Just to try and make him look "chicken" 'cause he made the Groucho glasses
comment?
Mark0 <--my Dad can beat up your Dad, neener neener neener. Sheesh