Kick shots
NJ Gremlin
Hello there RSBers.
In another thread about eye contact, cueball or object ball last.. i
brought up the subject of kick shots. Now this has nothing to do with eye
contact, and i thought it to be an interesting question so i'm starting a
thread about it.
Whne i'm kicking at a ball, usually in 9 ball from a safety, i always
try to pocket the object ball, play safe, whatever. Always have a plan on
every shot. I was wondering if anyone has any systems on doing such
things(i.e.Finding a contact point on the object ball to pocket it on a
kick).I tend to start with a basic mirror system, double the distance from
the contact point to the rail, etc. From there it's all feel. I know when
to use draw, follow and english to get the cue ball to react the way i want
it to on a kick. I usually get the object ball and cueball to go in the
right general directions after contact, but was wondering if there was a
more accurate system. Some sort of "secret" that someone might like to share.
Just wondering.. any suggestions?
Ryan
Keith Johnson
Ron Shepard wrote:
>
> The first one is that with the mirror system, which is basically what I
> try to use for 1-cushion kicks, the symmetry plane is not the cushion
> edge, but is really a ball radius out from the cushion. On well-worn
> tables, there is usually a line along the cushion at this distance that
> helps with the visualization.
Question: So that I understand this correctly, are you saying the
imaginary
"mirror" should be placed a half-ball distance from the rail
instead of against the rail?
Ron Shepard
In article <19970925010...@ladder01.news.aol.com>,
njgr...@aol.com (NJ Gremlin) wrote:
>[...] I usually get the object ball and cueball to go in the
>right general directions after contact, but was wondering if there was a
>more accurate system. Some sort of "secret" that someone might like to share.
>Just wondering.. any suggestions?
I've posted my "secrets" here several times, so I'm not sure that they
qualify, but here they are again.
The first one is that with the mirror system, which is basically what I
try to use for 1-cushion kicks, the symmetry plane is not the cushion
edge, but is really a ball radius out from the cushion. On well-worn
tables, there is usually a line along the cushion at this distance that
helps with the visualization.
Second, when you visualize the ball reflection, actually visualize the
whole ball, and the reflection of the pocket that you are shooting
towards; if you are good enough at this, then it almost turns a kick shot
into a much simpler cut shot. Don't just aim to hit the ball, aim
carefully to make it just as you would a cut shot with the same angles.
Third, to make the cue ball rebound as predictably, consistently, and
accurately as possible, stun the cue ball into the cushion with natural
running sidespin. The stun part is straight forward, but it requires
matching the contact point of the tip on the ball to the shot speed. The
stun eliminate the after-rebound curve on the cue ball that occurs with
topspin or draw. The natural running sidespin can be a bit trickier, but
there is a geometrical system that you can use to find the right contact
point. This sidespin gives the rebound angle that is closest to the ideal
mirror-system angle. When viewing the cue ball from the rear, find the
point that corresponds to the exact opposite from the cushion on the ball
equator. Then find the point that corresponds to .4 of that distance from
the center equator to that point, and .4R above center; this point would
correspond to natural roll with natural running sidespin. Now imagine a
straight line (from your perspective) from this point toward the exact
bottom of the cue ball, where it touches the table. Find the point along
this line that corresponds to stun (this depends on shot speed, of
course). That is the contact point on the cue ball that will correspond
to stun with natural running sidespin. This sounds complicated in words,
but it takes only a split second to do all this in real time. The
equations behind this are in APAPP, along with a few figures that help
with the explanation; the .4 factors in the above, for example, come from
the moment of inertia for the cue ball.
Sometimes, you can't use stun. Maybe you are forced to shoot with topspin
over a cushion or obstructing ball. I don't know of a comparably accurate
system for these kick shots, and there probably isn't one. You just have
to aim a bit short, let the cue ball curve into line after the rebound,
and hope you matched everything up.
$.02 -Ron Shepard
Ron Shepard
In article <342AC1...@ColumbiaSC.ncr.com>,
Keith....@ColumbiaSC.ncr.com wrote:
>Ron Shepard wrote:
>>
>> The first one is that with the mirror system, which is basically what I
>> try to use for 1-cushion kicks, the symmetry plane is not the cushion
>> edge, but is really a ball radius out from the cushion. On well-worn
>> tables, there is usually a line along the cushion at this distance that
>> helps with the visualization.
>
>Question: So that I understand this correctly, are you saying the
>imaginary
> "mirror" should be placed a half-ball distance from the rail
> instead of against the rail?
Yes. This is most obvious for "short rail" kicks, where the object ball
is fairly close to the cushion, say 1 inch or so, and the kick angle is
shallow. If you use the cushion edge as the "mirror" you will miss; but
if you use the line 1 ball radius away from the cushion, then you can make
the shot with pretty good accuracy. Or set the ball very close to the
cushion, say 1mm away, and ask yourself which line defines the best mirror
plane.
$.02 -Ron Shepard
steven moy
NJ Gremlin (njgr...@aol.com) wrote:
: every shot. I was wondering if anyone has any systems on doing such
: things(i.e.Finding a contact point on the object ball to pocket it on a
: kick).I tend to start with a basic mirror system, double the distance from
I normally walk around the table and line the object ball
straight into the desired pocket. Then I lean over the table
and look directly down on the object ball, holding my cue
about 6 inches over the ball with the edge of the cue lined
up directly connecting the center of the object ball with the heart
of the pocket. Now I pick out the point on that line, directly behind
the object ball, one half a ball diameter away from the object ball.
This is the center of your "Ghost ball" where you want the cue ball's
center point to ultimately end up. Make sure you have that spot
clearly picked out, and then go back around the table to address
the cue ball. Now it's all a movie in your mind as you take your
aiming strokes. Imagine hitting the cueball into the rail and
"feel" if it will result in the center of the cue ball arriving at
the point you have picked out. If not, make your adjustments
until you get it right.
Do this enough and you'll find that a lot of those cross-side
banks that would result in double-kisses are pretty much gimmees
if you go for the kick instead.
-$
Frank Glenn
Ron Shepard <she...@tcg.anl.gov> wrote in article
<shepard-2509...@macrls.tcg.anl.gov>...
> In article <19970925010...@ladder01.news.aol.com>,
> njgr...@aol.com (NJ Gremlin) wrote:
>
> >[...] I usually get the object ball and cueball to go in the
> >right general directions after contact, but was wondering if there was a
> >more accurate system. Some sort of "secret" that someone might like to
share.
> >Just wondering.. any suggestions?
>
> I've posted my "secrets" here several times, so I'm not sure that they
> qualify, but here they are again.
<<snip>>
I snipped Ron's informative 'secret', and will give up one of my own. I
don't think I have posted this before, and I hope you can understand this.
It is easy to demonstrate, but hard to explain. This IS a mirror system:
Standing behind the cuestick (relative to the cue ball), use the cuestick
to measure from the exact point on the object ball you wish the cueball to
hit to the rail that the cueball will contact to hit the object ball. Put
your finger on the cuestick at the contact rail. Move the cuestick straight
out from the object ball to the end of the rail, and sight back to the
cueball across the rail. the point where this line (from your finger across
the rail to the cueball) crosses the rail is the contact point on the rail.
Use NO english. You will hit the object ball every time, and make it most
of the time.
I'm going to try to draw this, but perhaps someone who has seen this
done, or understands it can draw it better.
___________________________
| 5 |
| 3 | the distance from 9 to the rail is equal to rail to p
| 9----------|---------p
| 6 x sight from p to c (cueball) and x is where you
| | need to hit the rail to make the 9.
| |
| c |
I hope this comes out. You need a fixed width font to see it correctly.
Frank
PS this is deadly, so practice, and amaze you friends.
Aaron Berg
NJ Gremlin wrote:
> Hello there RSBers.
>
> In another thread about eye contact, cueball or object ball last..
> i
> brought up the subject of kick shots. Now this has nothing to do with
> eye
> contact, and i thought it to be an interesting question so i'm
> starting a
> thread about it.
> Whne i'm kicking at a ball, usually in 9 ball from a safety, i
> always
> try to pocket the object ball, play safe, whatever. Always have a plan
> on
> every shot. I was wondering if anyone has any systems on doing such
> things(i.e.Finding a contact point on the object ball to pocket it on
> a
> kick).I tend to start with a basic mirror system, double the distance
> from
> the contact point to the rail, etc. From there it's all feel. I know
> when
> to use draw, follow and english to get the cue ball to react the way i
> want
> it to on a kick. I usually get the object ball and cueball to go in
> the
> right general directions after contact, but was wondering if there was
> a
> more accurate system. Some sort of "secret" that someone might like to
> share.
> Just wondering.. any suggestions?
>
> Ryan
>
Since we've all got secrets,
I aim from the pocket, though the ball into the cushion. Then I shoot
into the cushion just a hair past the point on the cushion because we
all know the point on a cushion is not the real aiming point and it
helps to compensate for throw. That method works best for object balls
2-5 balls off the cushion perferrably shooting at the side pockets.
Aaron
Most of the time I visualize the angles from experience.
Ron Shepard
In article <342E06D5...@cyberjunkie.com>, Aaron Berg
<Aa...@cyberjunkie.com> wrote:
[...]
>I aim from the pocket, though the ball into the cushion. Then I shoot
>into the cushion just a hair past the point on the cushion because we
>all know the point on a cushion is not the real aiming point and it
>helps to compensate for throw. That method works best for object balls
>2-5 balls off the cushion perferrably shooting at the side pockets.
This approach would mean that the point on the cushion that you aim the
cue ball is independent of the cue ball position. If you think about it,
that can't be right, can it?
$.02 -Ron Shepard
Aaron Berg
Ron Shepard wrote:
Thanks Ron,
I probably meant drawing the line from the pocket, through the ball to get my
point of contact and then figuring how to hit that point from my own
knowledge of angles through experience. We'll leave the cushion part out of
it.
--
Aaron (MN)