What is a called-shot and a legal-shot in 8 ball?
wdo...@yahoo.com
1. What to call.
2. What is a legal shot (ie what happens if you make your called-shot,
but other balls get pocketed as well).
There are many sites that have the rules, and they seem to have the
same text. Here is one example:
http://www.pool-table-rules.com/gr01.php
I'm kinda ticked that the use the following terms but do not define
them:
called-ball
object-ball
numbered-ball
According to general rule 3.4 (call shot rule), the shooter must
designate the called-ball (they do not define called-ball).
According to 8-ball rule 4.02 (call shot rule), the shooter must take
care to call the object-ball (now they are using a different term, and
they don't define it).
So it's not clear if these terms are referring to the ball that is hit
by the cue ball, or the ball that is to be pocketed. I must also
assume that the the terms are referring to different balls (otherwise
why use different terms).
Lastly, I'm confused by 8-ball rule 4.11 (legal shot rule). I think I
understand the first part. They are saying that if you pocket any
numbered-ball, the shot is legal (ie no foul). OK, I can figure out
what they mean by numbered ball (any numbered ball including yours or
your opponents). The second part (about banking the cue ball) is
confusing though. They now go back to referring to these undefined
object-balls. They say that after banking, the cue ball has to
contact the object-ball, and an object ball must be pocketed or etc.
This is confusing because (aside from not defining object-ball) they
are implying that there is more than one object-ball. This conflicts
with the call-shot rule 4.02 because I assume that that rule implies
that there is just one object-ball (otherwise how do you call it).
Argghh, no wonder there are so many bar fights on this subject. You
need a constitutional lawyer to interpret these rules.
Billy Bob
pocket?" Tell me and show me what you are intending to do BEFORE SHOOTING.
The best way to call your shot is to say it and also point to the pocket you
are talking about with your cue stick. So say 6 in the corner - then point
to the specific corner pocket you are talking about with your cue stick.
Then if the called ball goes into the opposite corner pocket (by bouncing
back and forth), you can't say that was the pocket you were calling.
So for calling your shot, you are just communicating to your opponent which
ball will go into which pocket. Not which ball you hit first.
As to a legal shot, you must hit one of your balls first then a ball (any
ball) must hit a rail OR FALL INTO A POCKET). So what they are saying is
that a ball (any ball) falling into a pocket counts the same as a ball
hitting a rail to be considered a legal shot.
If you lightly tap the cue ball and it travels two inches and stops, it is a
foul. (No ball hits a rail afer you hit the cue ball.)
If you lightly hit the cue ball and it hits one of your balls and that ball
travels 1 foot BUT DOES NOT HIT A RAIL (and the cue ball does not hit a rail
and no other ball hits a rail), then it is a foul.
If you hit one of your balls and that ball hits a rail (or that ball hits
any other ball which the hits a rail or the cue ball hits a rail after the
shot), it is a legal shot.
If you hit one of your balls and that ball falls into any pocket (or that
ball hits any other ball which falls into any pocket or the cue ball falls
into any pocket after the shot), it is a legal shot. (A ball falling into a
pocket is the same as a ball hitting a rail so far as legal shot goes.)
Basically you can't just walk up and lightly tap the cue ball moving it 2
inches. (Like some people do if they don't have a shot.)
As to referring to numbered balls. They do this when referring to the break
for example. A legal break is when 4 numbered balls hit a rail after the
break. This does not include the cue ball. So by saying numbered balls, they
are referring to all balls EXCEPT the cue ball.
<wdo...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
wdo...@yahoo.com
> As to referring to numbered balls. They do this when referring to the break
> for example. A legal break is when 4 numbered balls hit a rail after the
> break. This does not include the cue ball. So by saying numbered balls, they
> are referring to all balls EXCEPT the cue ball.
Thanks. What you say makes perfect sense. I think that you should
write the rule book instead of the original author. With the current
rules (in addition to not defining object-ball), they specifically
imply that the object-ball is the ball hit by the cue ball in rule
4.11. Just the opposite of what the rules should be.
I'm almost there. For question #2, more specifically... do you end
your inning if you make your called-shot and some other balls get
pocketed as well?
I think that everyone does end their turn when you sink other balls
(in addition to the called-shot), but I can't find anything in the
rules that says so.
The closest thing I can find that refers to the subject is general
rule 3.4 (called shot rule) which says:
--quote--
Any additionally pocketed ball(s) on a legal stroke is counted in the
shooter's favour.
--end quote--
This seems to say just the opposite. It seems to say that you do not
lose your turn but rather you benefit from random extra pocketed
balls.
I dunno. I'm gonna have a hard time trying to convince my buddies to
disregard the words in the rule book, and rather accept the
interpretation from a newsgroup. I think I'm still in for a fight :)
Ron Shepard
<857c12f8-b0dc-4811...@m36g2000hse.googlegroups.com>,
wdo...@yahoo.com wrote:
> I dunno. I'm gonna have a hard time trying to convince my buddies to
> disregard the words in the rule book, and rather accept the
> interpretation from a newsgroup. I think I'm still in for a fight :)
There is a discussion of the various 8-ball rules in the FAQ.
http://www.sfbilliards.com/faq.html
$.02 -Ron Shepard
Patrick Johnson
>1. What to call.
Call the ball you intend to pocket and the pocket it's supposed to go
into.
>2. What is a legal shot (ie what happens if you make your called-shot,
>but other balls get pocketed as well).
If your called ball goes into the intended pocket, you keep shooting
no matter what else is made (unless you make the 8 ball).
>I'm kinda ticked that the use the following terms but do not define
>them:
>called-ball
The ball you call to be pocketed.
>object-ball
Any ball other than the cue ball (can be your called ball, but doesn't
have to be).
>numbered-ball
This is pretty obvious, isn't it? Any ball with a number on it.
>... it's not clear if these terms (called ball and object ball) are
>referring to the ball that is hit by the cue ball, or the ball that is
>to be pocketed.
Object ball is a generic term for all the balls except the cue ball,
including the 8 ball. The called ball is the object ball you intend
to pocket. A "legal" object ball has two meanings:
1. "Hitting a legal object ball" - It is only legal to contact one of
your group of balls first with the cue ball. If you don't it's a
foul.
2. "Pocketing a legal object ball" - It's legal to pocket your called
object ball, and if you do it's also legal to pocket any other object
ball on the same shot (including your opponent's), except the 8 ball.
If you don't pocket your called object ball, then no other pocketed
ball is legal (you give up your turn and any illegally pocketed balls
stay down).
I think the use of the terms "legal" and "illegal" in the rules is
unnecessarily confusing. In some cases "illegal" means a foul and in
other cases it just means your turn ends. But your turn can also end
with nothing "illegal" happening, just by not making the called ball.
To avoid confusion I think the term "illegal" should be reserved for
fouls.
pj
chgo
tdodge
"Ron Shepard" <ron-s...@NOSPAM.comcast.net> wrote in message
news:ron-shepard-F022...@comcast.dca.giganews.com...
>> I dunno. I'm gonna have a hard time trying to convince my buddies to
>> disregard the words in the rule book, and rather accept the
>> interpretation from a newsgroup. I think I'm still in for a fight :)
>
lemme try with examples, limited to 8 ball.
you have an easy 1-2 combo.
example 1.
call the 2, shoot the combo, make the 2.
good shot. You hit one of your balls first, (the 1), and pocketed the
called ball.
(no need to call the combo) your inning continues.
example 2:
call the 2, shoot the combo, the one bounces off the cushion and misses.
legal shot, no foul, but your inning is over.
you hit one of your balls first, a ball hit a cushion.
example 3:
call the 2, shoot the combo, make the 2. the 1 kicks in one of your
opponents balls.
legal shot, your inning continues. pocketing one of your opponents balls is
not revelant,
but it stays down.
you hit one of your balls, made the called ball.
the general rules are over-ridden by the specific rules of 8 ball.
example 3:
call the 2. miscue or otherwise blow it, and the cb hits one of you
opponents balls.
foul. bih to opponent.
example 4:
call the 2 (a long combo this time) shoot softly, the 1 bumps the 2, but the
2 stops just short of the
pocket.
foul..no cushion, bih to your opponent.
It is never necessary to call kisses, caroms, or cushions, just what ball is
going into which
pocket, make a legal hit (one of your group) and *then* pocket the called
ball. You don't have to hit
the called ball.
summary, legal shot.
the first ball hit by the cb has to be one of yours. After contact, any
ball must hit a cushion or fall.
The words in the rule book are clear. Once you get the concept of a legal
shot, confusion is
over.
JakartaDean
> I'm having trouble deciphering 8 ball rules. I need to know:
> 1. What to call.
> 2. What is a legal shot (ie what happens if you make your called-shot,
> but other balls get pocketed as well).
>
> There are many sites that have the rules, and they seem to have the
> same text. Here is one example:
>
> http://www.pool-table-rules.com/gr01.php
>
by former RSBer Bob Jewett, completely rewrote the rules last year,
effective Jan. 1 2008. You can find them at: http://www.wpa-pool.com/
You'll find a link to go to a Rules page, then you can download to your
heart's content printer-friendly pdfs.
IMO, once you get used to the completely new structure and wording, this
rule set is a dramatic improvement over the past set. (As a nit, the
site you linked to seems to contain ALL the BCA rules of 2000, with the
BCA copyright notice on it, rather than linking to the BCA or WPA.)
The bit you're looking for on what is a legal shot (forget the bit about
additional object balls falling in) is in the "Fouls" section:
6.3 No Rail after Contact
If no ball is pocketed on a shot, the cue ball must contact an object
ball, and after that contact at least one ball (cue ball or any object
ball) must be driven to a rail, or the shot is a foul.
See, that's jus' good plane ol' English ;-)
Cheers,
Dean
wdo...@yahoo.com
> If your called ball goes into the intended pocket, you keep shooting
> no matter what else is made (unless you make the 8 ball).
>
To add to the confusion, here is a link to a clarification of calling
a combo shot:
http://www.pool-table-rules.com/8ballq14.html
The question asks... if you intend to sink 2 balls, do you only need
to call one of them (you would think that if you call one, and make
it, you have made a legal shot even though another has been
pocketed). But according the the above link, the answer is no.
I know, that that the above link is not the official rule, but an
opinion (just like the opinions in this thread). However, opinions
are all I have, as the rules are so poor that they don't even define
important terms.
JakartaDean
I think you linked to the wrong question. My best guess is you wanted
this one: http://www.pool-table-rules.com/8ballq5.html
The opinion given merely states that a combination is not usually an
obvious shot, so must be called. It does say in there somewhere "balls"
not "ball" but that's just wrong, IMO -- likely a typo.
Ignore that site and refer to the one I linked to earlier, and save
yourself some frustration.
Cheers,
Dean
Jack Stein
> 6.3 No Rail after Contact
> If no ball is pocketed on a shot, the cue ball must contact an object
> ball, and after that contact at least one ball (cue ball or any object
> ball) must be driven to a rail, or the shot is a foul.
> See, that's jus' good plane ol' English ;-)
Reading through some of the WPA rules, I think 6.7 Double Hit / Frozen
Balls section
(http://www.wpa-pool.com/index.asp?content=rules_fouls#6.7)
is a bit confusing. Specifically:
"If the cue ball is very close to an object ball, and the shooter barely
grazes that object ball on the shot, the shot is assumed not to violate
the first paragraph of this rule, even though the tip is arguably still
on the cue ball when ball-ball contact is made."
Perhaps it's too early in the morning for me to get what the point of
that is, but I'd sure hate to be explaining a "barely grazed" shot to
another drunk at a bar, particularly one larger and meaner than me...
Also, I still don't like the fact the 8 ball rules don't at least
address the possibility of playing 8 on the break wins, considering
almost no one plays spot the 8 if made on the break, or re-rack or any
other archaic rule.
--
Jack
http://jbstein.com
John Black
@m36g2000hse.googlegroups.com>, wdo...@yahoo.com says...
> do you end
> your inning if you make your called-shot and some other balls get
> pocketed as well?
Of course not.
John Black
** Posted from http://www.teranews.com **
Ron Hudson
You answer that as if it's a silly question, but it's not. For a player who is
new to 8-ball but is maybe a long time snooker player, for example, it would
make perfect sense that pocketing another ball in addition to the called one
would be a foul.
In snooker, if you're shooting a red ball, it's ok to make another red ball on
the shot, but if you make a number ball, it's a foul. If you're shooting a
number ball and you make any other ball, it's a foul.
Ron
tdodge
I have a question for the original poster.
What was the original dispute or rule question?
John Black
r...@okwinners.com says...
Ron, that is interesting, thanks. I did not mean to insult the
questioner. I do think it would be an obviously bad rule for 8-ball. I
can think of a few examples. Here's one. Let's say there was a bad
break and a large cluster of balls remained in the rack area. You call
a shot on an open ball and make that shot while sending the cue ball
slamming into the rack area to open up the clustered balls. Why would
it ever make sense for you to lose your turn if a made called shot and a
good cluster break resulted in one of those other balls finding a
pocket.
Ron Hudson
It shouldn't. I was just pointing out that there are reasons why we can't make
assumptions on rules interpretations or on understanding why a situation would
not be obvious to someone.
Ron
wdo...@yahoo.com
> by former RSBer Bob Jewett, completely rewrote the rules last year,
> effective Jan. 1 2008. You can find them at: http://www.wpa-pool.com/
> You'll find a link to go to a Rules page, then you can download to your
> heart's content printer-friendly pdfs.
Thanks for the link. Yes those rules are much better. It actually
has some definitions, and I like how they group all of the fouls under
one heading instead of spreading them all over the place. It takes a
lot of reading to figure out what a legal shot is, but at least there
are no contradictions. They make no mention of extra balls being
pocketed in addition to the called-ball, so that can be interpreted
as...it doesn't matter.
I really wish they would have a definition for intended-ball in rule
1.6, or change the wording from:
++the intended ball and pocket++
to
++the ball that you intend to pocket and the pocket into which it will
go++
Again... at least they only use the term once and don't contradict it
somewhere else.
wdo...@yahoo.com
Hi - I was trying to head-off some future disputes. Right now, we're
using bar rules (which is essentially the absence of rules). I've
insisted on using real rules, but I had found them to be very
unclear. I thought that I was looking at universally accepted rules
as I had found several web pages with the same wording. In these
rules, they would use the following terms and not define them:
called-ball
numbered-ball
object-ball
This lead to my first question about - what do you call:
-the ball you are hitting
-the ball you are pocketing
One of the posters provided a link to some better rules (http://
www.wpa-pool.com/).
I still think I'm in for an argument when it is realized that general
rule 1.6 (call shot rule) doesn't define intended-ball. I tell ya,
I'm gonna pay for insisting on using real rules.
The second question I had was...does your inning end if you make your
called shot and sink some other balls as well?
I was used to bar rules where you have to call everything.
That has been clarified for me. I think the second set of rules is a
little bit clearer in this respect as they just don't mention extra
pocketed balls.
tdodge
"The following General Rules apply to all the games covered by these rules
except when contradicted by specific game rules."
>Hi - I was trying to head-off some future disputes. Right now, we're
>using bar rules (which is essentially the absence of rules). I've
>insisted on using real rules, but I had found them to be very
>unclear.
After a few games, when you grok the rules, they will be clear to you.
8 ball is a much more complex game than you knew. More akin to chess,
with a strong defensive component. Playing a good safety is an important
part of the game, but it
must be a legal shot...ball and cushion applies. Also, check out another
rule set..the VNEA rules.
(Valley National Eight ball Association) They are slightly different,
fr'instance, you don't spot the 8.
Who wants to pay a buck after making the 8 on the break. WPA/BCA rules
assume you are not
playing on a bar box.
I digress...
You have a more involved situation than you realize.
first.
You will NEVER convince bar bangers that 8 ball has rules. Their "rules"
are based on "I've always
played it that way" , and final determinations are made by the largest
player.
All their knowledge is based on what someone in a bar told them. Not a
reliable
source of information.
You will become fascinated with the game, and eventually, find yourself in a
pool hall.
BTW..pool halls are cheaper than bar tables.
If you're lucky, someone will give you some tips on your mechanics..stance,
grip, and stroke.
If you're really lucky, some of the tips will stick. Then, the problem
deepens...
you may be in danger of becoming a real pool player. You start playing some
different games.
I suggest 14.1 as the next game. You will progress...join RSB, but don't
use yahoo or google
email addresses. There is so much crap coming from anonymous sites that
many RSBers have them blocked.
Eventually, you will hold bar-ball in great distain, and will play only with
great reluctance.
Join a league..BCA or VNEA. All the rules are followed, you'll have a
great time, and become a
much better player.
/then a slump hits. I bemoaned that situation a few years ago on RSB...I
still remember a response:
"welcome to the sado-masochistic (sp?) world of pool."
anyway..stick around. There is a wealth of knowledge here. Ya gotta wade
through some crap,
but it's here.
JakartaDean
> You have a more involved situation than you realize.
> first. You will NEVER convince bar bangers that 8 ball has rules. Their "rules"
> are based on "I've always played it that way" , and final determinations are made by the largest
> player.
> All their knowledge is based on what someone in a bar told them. Not a
> reliable source of information.
I think you meant to say "Their rules are the 'real' rules" Gawd, I
hate that line.
> anyway..stick around. There is a wealth of knowledge here. Ya gotta wade
> through some crap, but it's here.
>
Actually, it seems to me that the chief source of crap has been absent
for a week or two. I hope I haven't jinxed the group by mentioning it.
Dean
JakartaDean
> Reading through some of the WPA rules, I think 6.7 Double Hit / Frozen
> Balls section
> (http://www.wpa-pool.com/index.asp?content=rules_fouls#6.7)
>
> is a bit confusing. Specifically:
>
> "If the cue ball is very close to an object ball, and the shooter barely
> grazes that object ball on the shot, the shot is assumed not to violate
> the first paragraph of this rule, even though the tip is arguably still
> on the cue ball when ball-ball contact is made."
>
> Perhaps it's too early in the morning for me to get what the point of
> that is, but I'd sure hate to be explaining a "barely grazed" shot to
> another drunk at a bar, particularly one larger and meaner than me...
>
> Also, I still don't like the fact the 8 ball rules don't at least
> address the possibility of playing 8 on the break wins, considering
> almost no one plays spot the 8 if made on the break, or re-rack or any
> other archaic rule.
>
Well, it was kinda hard to explain before too, so maybe there's just no
good way to communicate this rule to those who haven't seen it. I spend
an hour or two each season explaining it to different people in our league.
One thing that is clear now is that you can hit towards a frozen ball
(i.e. touching, not just close) and it's not a double hit. There's many
folks around here who think it's some kind of foul, and even if I
explain the physics as to why it's probably not a double hit, they say
that it must be a push shot.
But, for me, the one I'd hate to have to explain to the drunk is "It is
the shooter’s responsibility to get the declaration [frozen ball] before
the shot." You're gonna tell the drunk biker that he was supposed to
remind you that you could call a frozen ball on him?
And, around here, everyone plays WPA rules, including spot the 8 /
rerack when it goes in off the break. Doesn't happen that often on 9
footers with tight pockets.
Dean
Ron Shepard
"tdodge" <NOOOSPAM...@stny.rr.com> wrote:
> Who wants to pay a buck after making the 8 on the break.
Someone must pay the buck regardless of which 8-ball on the break
rule you are using. And you can decide beforehand who pays,
regardless of which 8-ball on the break rule you are using, and
eliminate any arguments or hard feelings when it occurs. This point
is really irrelevant as far as deciding which ruleset is best on
regular tables or bar tables. The bottom line is that the room gets
a dollar when the 8-ball is pocketed no matter which rules you are
playing with.
$.02 -Ron Shepard
Thyme3421
http://www.flickr.com/photos/26474613@N02/2483356640/sizes/o/
First off.... Make it clear what you intend to do BEFORE SHOOTING
Straight Forward blunt answers:
1. Call the ball you're going to hit, and the pocket it's going into.
Example... You're solids and you're going to make the yellow 1 ball drop
into the corner pocket... you'd say "1ball, Corner pocket" A lot of people
will also just point at the designated pocket while saying "1ball" as
well. This doesn't always go well when there's a lot of loud music and
it's hard to hear "1ball"
2. This answer isn't so straight forward. In general... if you hit your
suit (Stripes or Solids) first, and then ANY ball goes into a rail... it's
a legal shot. In the picture, in the upper left corner, let's say you're
SOLIDS this is a legal shot.
Some further clarification on the rest...
To start... the OBJECT ball (In this case we'll say OB) is the ball you
intend to hit first. If you're going for a 10 ball combo, what's the first
ball you're going to hit to start this domino effect? The object ball.
A CALLED-BALL is the ball you intend to SINK in a pocket. This can be the
same ball as your object ball (OB)... or a different ball.
Take the example in the upper right corner. The 4 ball is the OB, and the
2 ball is the CALLED ball.
And another example is the bottom right corner... the 3 ball is the OB and
the CALLED BALL. Same as the 1 ball in the upper left corner... OB and
Called ball, although the player missed the shot.
Now, some various details and technicalities come into play for the rest
of the world. Like, if you're playing in a BAR... you're going to be
playing by the House Rules, or Bar rules. This can change from place to
place. Slop usually doesn't count, you have to call everything... at least
where I play.
If you look towards the right side of the table, top corner... I'm still
solids, I'd call "4 to 15 to 2, corner pocket"
Bottom Right corner, I'd call "3 to rail, off the 14 to the corner"
If you get into some tournaments or leagues the rules vary, but it's
generally the same everywhere.
APA is slop, BCA is "Call Pocket" where you call just your Called ball and
Which Pocket
If you want some more information you can check out these websites below.
BCA: http://home.bca-pool.com/displaycommon.cfm?an=1&subarticlenbr=54
APA: http://www.usamateurchampionship.com/rules.html
VNEA: http://www.vnea.com/pdf/2007/VNEA%20Ruleofplay/8-Ball%20Rules.pdf
-Duane Edwards << hope that helps
"Good enough to win money, not good enough to make it."
http://diamondstopockets.blogspot.com
------
: the next generation of web-newsreaders : http://www.recgroups.com
Ron Hudson
wrote:
All the rooms (bars and pool halls) around here that sponsor BCA leagues
understand the rules and will open the table to retrieve the 8-ball without
charge.
Ron
Ron Shepard
Ron Hudson <r...@okwinners.com> wrote:
> On Tue, 13 May 2008 01:07:01 -0500, Ron Shepard
> <ron-s...@NOSPAM.comcast.net>
> wrote:
>
> >In article <4828feb9$0$3375$4c36...@roadrunner.com>,
> > "tdodge" <NOOOSPAM...@stny.rr.com> wrote:
> >
> >> Who wants to pay a buck after making the 8 on the break.
> >
> >Someone must pay the buck regardless of which 8-ball on the break
> >rule you are using. And you can decide beforehand who pays,
> >regardless of which 8-ball on the break rule you are using, and
> >eliminate any arguments or hard feelings when it occurs. This point
> >is really irrelevant as far as deciding which ruleset is best on
> >regular tables or bar tables. The bottom line is that the room gets
> >a dollar when the 8-ball is pocketed no matter which rules you are
> >playing with.
>
> All the rooms (bars and pool halls) around here that sponsor BCA leagues
> understand the rules and will open the table to retrieve the 8-ball without
> charge.
Then that obviates the original question.
$.02 -Ron Shepard