Back Hand English
John Black
well enough. In the intervening years, my aim and my stroke have improved
(thanks in part to the loose grip but several other things as well) but I
still struggle with "adjusting" for english. I started thinking lately
about my previous attempt to use BHE. I was thinking, well why *would* it
work? If my aim was suspect and my stroke was not smooth and true, then BHE
didn't have a chance. It certainly wasn't going to *fix* those problems -
it would just be limited by them.
So I'm starting to re-experiment with BHE. Its still early but I can say
two things already: 1) it definately works better than I remember it working
and 2) it probably is working better than my other way of trying to adjust
for english related problems like deflection. I'm pretty sure about 2) but
I want to give it a week or two more to make sure.
How many of you use BHE? I want to hear from the lurkers too.
John Black
Hustlin' Hank
What is Back Hand English?
Hank <~~~~doesn't speak ebonics :-)
Mark0
If I remember right, it was the Houligans that were BHE proponents. Seems
to me that Lou experimented with it some (but didn't exhale) :D
--Mark0
Author of Secrets to a Perfect Pool Table Recovering Job
http://www.mccauleyweb.com/secrets.htm
____________________________________________________________________�
: the next generation of web-newsreaders : http://www.recgroups.com
lfigueroa
I don't do it consciously. I think that because I usually hit so close
to center with my english shots, it might look like I do. But I dan't.
Lou Figueroa
lfigueroa
But then a gain, I can't remember the 60's either :-)
Lou Figueroa
Ron Shepard
<8e9a6ea4-d2d9-4e5e...@o10g2000yqa.googlegroups.com>,
"Hustlin' Hank" <nineb...@aol.com> wrote:
> On Nov 24, 3:56?pm, John Black <jbl...@texas.net> wrote:
> > I tried back hand english years ago and kind of abandoned it as not working
> > well enough. ?In the intervening years, my aim and my stroke have improved
> > (thanks in part to the loose grip but several other things as well) but I
> > still struggle with "adjusting" for english. ?I started thinking lately
> > about my previous attempt to use BHE. ?I was thinking, well why *would* it
> > work? ?If my aim was suspect and my stroke was not smooth and true, then BHE
> > didn't have a chance. ?It certainly wasn't going to *fix* those problems -
> > it would just be limited by them.
> >
> > So I'm starting to re-experiment with BHE. ?Its still early but I can say
> > two things already: 1) it definately works better than I remember it working
> > and 2) it probably is working better than my other way of trying to adjust
> > for english related problems like deflection. ?I'm pretty sure about 2) but
> > I want to give it a week or two more to make sure.
> >
> > How many of you use BHE? ?I want to hear from the lurkers too.
> >
> > John Black
>
> What is Back Hand English?
It is the same as aim-and-pivot. It s described in the FAQ.
http://www.sfbilliards.com/faq.html
To work well, you need a stick with a pivot point near the bridge
length, and the shot speed needs to be fast enough so that swerve is
not a major factor.
$.02 -Ron Shepard
Billy Bob
>
Everything You Always Wanted to Know About Cue Ball Squirt, But Were Afraid
to Ask...
http://www.sfbilliards.com/Shepard_squirt.pdf
Also there is "front hand english" when using a low deflection shaft like a
Predator. More on both here...
http://billiards.colostate.edu/threads/English.html
John Black
> If I remember right, it was the Houligans that were BHE proponents. Seems
> to me that Lou experimented with it some (but didn't exhale) :D
Bert Kinnister is also a major proponent. I believe it is entirely separate
from Hal Houle's aiming systems. Its a way to apply english that does not
have to compensate for deflection. You get the aim line and pivot the "back
hand" to apply english.
John Black
John Black
she...@NOSPAM.comcast.net says...
> To work well, you need a stick with a pivot point near the bridge
> length, and the shot speed needs to be fast enough so that swerve is
> not a major factor.
That is right. It won't work with sticks that are designed to be very low
deflection. But in my random sample of "normal" cues, it seems to work ok.
John Black
Hustlin' Hank
wrote:
>
> > What is Back Hand English?
>
> It is the same as aim-and-pivot. �It s described in the FAQ.
>
> �http://www.sfbilliards.com/faq.html
>
> To work well, you need a stick with a pivot point near the bridge
> length, and the shot speed needs to be fast enough so that swerve is
> not a major factor.
>
> $.02 -Ron Shepard-
I couldn't find Back Hand English, nor Aim and Pivot. Where did I miss
it at?
Thanks for the link.
Hank
Ron Shepard
<7269db33-58c5-4d7a...@p35g2000yqh.googlegroups.com>,
"Hustlin' Hank" <nineb...@aol.com> wrote:
> On Nov 25, 11:43?am, Ron Shepard <ron-shep...@NOSPAM.comcast.net>
> wrote:
>
> >
> > > What is Back Hand English?
> >
> > It is the same as aim-and-pivot. ?It s described in the FAQ.
> >
> > ?http://www.sfbilliards.com/faq.html
> >
> > To work well, you need a stick with a pivot point near the bridge
> > length, and the shot speed needs to be fast enough so that swerve is
> > not a major factor.
> >
> > $.02 -Ron Shepard-
>
> I couldn't find Back Hand English, nor Aim and Pivot. Where did I miss
> it at?
It is under question 7: How should I choose a cue? If you search for
"backhand" (one word, no space) you should find it.
I have mixed feelings about recommending this approach. Many
instructors teach it without explaining how it works, which means that
the students don't understand the above comments about pivot points,
bridge lengths, swerve, and shot speed. But even if you do understand
how it works, and use it in the right times with the right stick, the
use of BHE leads some players to be sloppy with their strokes and in the
tip-ball placement. For beginners first learning sidespin, that might
be alright, but if they pick up bad stroke habits early, then it hurts
later on when they refine their technique enough for precise tip-ball
placement to be important. They need to go back and relearn how to
adjust for sidespin on the other shots (or with a different stick) where
BHE can't be used, and their poor technique gets in the way of this
unlearning/relearning process.
I certainly think that all players should experiment with it to
understand how it works. Even if you have to play with a house cue
(with the right pivot point length), I think it is a good mental
exercise to go through that process. I also think it is good to know in
case you need a "second opinion" about how to shoot a particular shot
(you know, when you sort of go blind on a particular shot and just can't
see the angles your normal way). But my reservations are about using
BHE routinely or as your primary method to adjust for sidespin.
I also think it is a good exercise to use the aim-and-pivot approach to
determine the squirt pivot points for a selection of cue sticks. This
tells you not only the range of behavior of cue sticks out there, but
also about your own technique (e.g. just how straight and reproducible
is your stroke with different bridge lengths and shot speeds). I think
I can consistently get within 10% of the same result for the pivot point
of a particular cue if I test the same cue several times (say, spread
over several days or weeks, or if I change the shot speed for the
different tests). But I can't get much closer than that. The reason,
I'm pretty sure, is due to my stroke and setup imperfections. It keeps
me humble, but it also tells me how accurate I can be when I'm in stroke
and doing (most) things right, so I don't get lazy and start taking
shortcuts.
$.02 -Ron Shepard
John Black
she...@NOSPAM.comcast.net says...
> For beginners first learning sidespin, that might
> be alright, but if they pick up bad stroke habits early, then it hurts
> later on when they refine their technique enough for precise tip-ball
> placement to be important.
Aren't there good players who use it, like Bert Kinnister? I heard Efren
uses it too but I'm not sure about that.
John Black
Hustlin' Hank
wrote:
> $.02 -Ron Shepard-
Found it. Silly me was loking under the parts that defined English. I
would never have thought about looking under Cues.
I don't think I totally understand it as I believe there are many
different parts to any shot that can effect its outcome that the
shooter has little control over.
Hank
lfigueroa
A few years ago at the DCC Bob Jewett took a couple of shots with my
Gina and was figuring out the pivot point and said, "How do you make
anything with this thing?!"
I try not to think about it :-)
Lou Figueroa
ran 106 a week ago
John Black
says...
> ran 106 a week ago
Fantastic! Congrats!
John Black
Hustlin' Hank
> <7269db33-58c5-4d7a-9feb-fb6e11218...@p35g2000yqh.googlegroups.com>,
> I can consistently get within 10% of the same result for the pivot point
> of a particular cue if I test the same cue several times (say, spread
> over several days or weeks, or if I change the shot speed for the
> different tests). �But I can't get much closer than that. �The reason,
> I'm pretty sure, is due to my stroke and setup imperfections. �It keeps
> me humble, but it also tells me how accurate I can be when I'm in stroke
> and doing (most) things right, so I don't get lazy and start taking
> shortcuts.
>
I am a little confused. Is BHE produced by moving your stroking hand
(not bridge hand) to apply english, therefore the pivot point (bridge)
can affect the amount of english?
Hank <~~~~~~has too many bad habits
John Black
@j24g2000yqa.googlegroups.com>, nineb...@aol.com says...
> I am a little confused. Is BHE produced by moving your stroking hand
> (not bridge hand) to apply english, therefore the pivot point (bridge)
> can affect the amount of english?
Exactly. You don't want to use a very short bridge for this but you really
shouldn't be doing that anyway.
John Black
Ron Shepard
<457c6bdb-aa79-4f3c...@j24g2000yqa.googlegroups.com>,
"Hustlin' Hank" <nineb...@aol.com> wrote:
> > > > > What is Back Hand English?
> >
> > > > It is the same as aim-and-pivot. ?It s described in the FAQ.
> >
> > > > http://www.sfbilliards.com/faq.html
> >
> > > > To work well, you need a stick with a pivot point near the bridge
> > > > length, and the shot speed needs to be fast enough so that swerve is
> > > > not a major factor.
[...]
> I am a little confused. Is BHE produced by moving your stroking hand
> (not bridge hand) to apply english,
Yes. You line up "as if" you are going to shoot the shot with no
sidespin. Then after you are lined up and with the tip near the
ball, you move your back hand to the side, which moves the tip in
the opposite direction to the other side. When you have the right
tip offset for the right amount of sidespin, then you stroke
straight along that new line and hit the cue ball with that offset.
Obviously, if you use move the butt to the side, say 1 inch, with a
long bridge length then the tip will move to the side a difference
distance (and the stick will end up along a different line) than it
would if you use a short bridge length. That is why bridge length
is important to the process.
There are also "swooping" versions of BHE where you don't take the
time to line up the shot and stroke straight, you just swoop to the
inside or outside to get the same effect. I recommend that you
don't do this, it is not as accurate, you don't learn as much about
what is happening, and it causes you to develop bad technique. And
if anyone tries to teach you to do this, they are either a very poor
instructor or they aren't your friend, they are trying to cripple
your game for the rest of your life so they can have a lifelong
sucker to fleece. IMO, of course. :-)
> therefore the pivot point (bridge)
> can affect the amount of english?
There are two "pivot points", the physical pivot point at your
bridge and the "squirt pivot point" which is an intrinsic
characteristic of your particular pool cue. If the two pivot points
are the same, then the squirt on the cue ball compensates exactly
for the change in the direction of the stick and the cue ball moves
along the original, no-sidespin, direction, hitting the object ball
in the right spot. If the two distances do not agree, and/or if the
shot distance is long enough for swerve to be important, then the
cue ball does *not* move along the original line and you might miss
the shot.
Some players argue that having a stick with a 12 inch squirt pivot
point is an advantage because it helps to compensate for
*unintentional* swoops in your stroke. This is true, at least
partly, but this is a different issue than using aim-and-pivot
*intentionally* as a means of compensating for squirt while using
sidespin. As I've described it above, your final stroke should
still be as perfectly straight as possible, and you should hit as
close as possible to the desired target tip-ball contact spot.
$.02 -Ron Shepard
Rodan
I am a little confused. Is BHE produced by moving your stroking
hand (not bridge hand) to apply english, therefore the pivot point
(bridge) can affect the amount of english?
_____________________________________________________________________
BHE - HOW TO DO IT:
1.) Line up the center of the cue, the center of the cue ball, and
the center of the ghost ball at impact.
2.) Without moving the bridge, move the stroking hand until
the cue tip is pointed at the spot on the cue ball that it is
believed will produce the desired english.
3.) Stroke the cue in this new direction.
The idea is that you can avoid having to mentally compensate
for the squirt error caused by hitting the cue ball with english.
The theory is that the apparent mis-direction resulting from
the mis-aimed cue will be compensated for by the squirt
imposed on the cue ball from the off-center hit. Every cue
is said to have a different squirt-vs-english characteristic so
you would have to find the correct bridge length for each cue.
In my opinion, BHE has no value whatsoever because there are
many more variables than aim and offset, and because only
the human subconscious brain can come near to putting them
together, perhaps after a couple of million cue strokes.
Good luck,
Rodan.
John Black
Ro...@Verizon.NOT says...
> In my opinion, BHE has no value whatsoever because there are
> many more variables than aim and offset, and because only
> the human subconscious brain can come near to putting them
> together, perhaps after a couple of million cue strokes.
I don't understand this. Can't I say that about anything? Pool
fundamentals have no value because there are many more variables than stance
and bridge...
The value of BHE would be that once you are good at aiming center ball, you
can use english with that same aim line that your brain already knows
without having to learn a variety of different aim lines for every shot
based on how much english you are using or worse, trying to guess the
compensation you need for deflection.
The main thing to look out for is that you want your cue to have a pivot
point around where you naturally like to put your bridge. People say that
is a disadvantage of the method because you can't just pick up "any stick"
and use it but you can't do that anyway since different sticks produce
different amount of deflection. We've all heard stories of good players
playing like crap when borrowing a low or high deflection cue so with either
method of applying english, you will have to learn to compensate for an
unfamiliar cue.
John Black
bk4...@hotmail.com
> In article <m-qdnec5lZNkGo3WnZ2dnUVZ_sOdn...@whidbeytel.com>,
I'm gonna agree with Rodan here, John. IMO, BHE is wee-tah-ded.
Good play requires much more accuracy than this stilted method.
Sorry.
Bob Keller
Rodan
In my opinion, BHE has no value whatsoever because there are
many more variables than aim and offset, and because only
the human subconscious brain can come near to putting them
together, perhaps after a couple of million cue strokes.
_________________________________________________________________
John Black wrote:
(Are you saying) that pool fundamentals have no value because
there are many more variables than stance and bridge...?
The value of BHE would be that once you are good at aiming
center ball, you can use english with that same aim line that your
brain already knows without having to learn a variety of different
aim lines for every shot based on how much english you are using
or worse, trying to guess the compensation you need for deflection.
The main thing is that you want your cue to have a pivot point
around where you naturally like to put your bridge. People say
a disadvantage of BHE is that can't just pick up "any stick" and use
it but you can't do that anyway since different sticks produce
different amount of deflection. We've all heard stories of good
players playing like crap when borrowing a low or high deflection
cue so with either method of applying english, you will have to
learn to compensate for an unfamiliar cue.
________________________________________________________________________
BHE is not a "fundamental" technique. It is a recipe for a method
of mechanical aiming, like the Houle aiming method, the "lights on
the ball" aiming method, or any of a dozen "systems" offered to
gullible beginners looking for the "secret" of aiming.
Even a cue with a known squirt given a specific amount of BHE and
shot speed will be not be reproducible in accuracy for any other shot
because the squirt is not linear with respect to the amount of BHE
nor the stroke speed. The shooter must still use learned judgment,
so the BHE would become just an extra distraction.
These "aiming systems" are diversions that damage the progress of
serious students, who must work harder at a later date to unlearn them.
JMHO.
Rodan.
John Black
Ro...@Verizon.NOT says...
> BHE is not a "fundamental" technique. It is a recipe for a method
> of mechanical aiming, like the Houle aiming method, the "lights on
> the ball" aiming method, or any of a dozen "systems" offered to
> gullible beginners looking for the "secret" of aiming.
>
> Even a cue with a known squirt given a specific amount of BHE and
> shot speed will be not be reproducible in accuracy for any other shot
> because the squirt is not linear with respect to the amount of BHE
> nor the stroke speed. The shooter must still use learned judgment,
> so the BHE would become just an extra distraction.
>
> These "aiming systems" are diversions that damage the progress of
> serious students, who must work harder at a later date to unlearn them.
Ok, thanks. I didn't think this was one of those "systems" that are easily
shown to have holes in them. I thought it was kind of a natural consequence
of the aim and pivot method of measuring the pivot point on the cue.
John Black
John Black
673bbe...@o10g2000yqa.googlegroups.com>, bk4...@hotmail.com says...
Bob, no need to be sorry. One of the reasons I posted it is to bounce the
idea off better players. It doesn't sound like anyone thinks this is a good
idea. That's good info too - it will probably save me going down the wrong
path.
But now I have to come to grips with the fact that my experiments with BHE
indicate that I miss less with BHE (as flawed as it is) than with my
standard method of applying english. I do make plenty of shots with english
of course but my miss percentage is way up verses the same shots at center
ball. I'm at the point now where I *know* the centerball aim line but
compensating for deflection still seems like such a guess.
Here is what I think I know. The amount of deflection does not depend on
the speed of the shot. You get more deflection for more offset (is this
linear?). Are those two statements true?
John Black
Ron Shepard
John Black <jbl...@texas.net> wrote:
> Here is what I think I know. The amount of deflection does not depend on
> the speed of the shot.
I don't know exactly how correct this is, but it is very close to
being correct. However, swerve does depend on shot speed (and stick
elevation, and the cloth condition), and you must adjust the aim
point for both squirt and swerve. On some shots, particularly with
lower-squirt cues, longer shot distances, lower speeds, and on
tables with slower cloth, swerve adjustment is going to be larger
than squirt adjustment. There are some shots where extra stick
elevation is required (e.g. because of obstructing balls) where I do
everything I can to avoid sidespin because of swerve, and I hit with
a little extra speed just to reduce any unintentional swerve that
might occur.
> You get more deflection for more offset (is this
> linear?).
This is an approximation, but it also is a pretty good one,
especially for low-squirt cues. By the time the squirt becomes
noticeably nonlinear, the tip offset is beyond the miscue limit.
This is why the aim-and-pivot squirt test works so well to
characterize pool cues, it depends on the nearly constant ratio
between squirt and tip offset rather than on the offset itself.
$.02 -Ron Shepard
Bradley Robertson
>> I'm gonna agree with Rodan here, John. IMO, BHE is wee-tah-ded.
>> Good play requires much more accuracy than this stilted method.
>> Sorry.
>
John said:
> Bob, no need to be sorry. One of the reasons I posted it is to bounce the
> idea off better players. It doesn't sound like anyone thinks this is a good
> idea. That's good info too - it will probably save me going down the wrong
> path.
My one pocket buddy came back from the DCC several years ago talking
about the Philippinos using some sort of back hand english, only with a
twist of the wrist. "a twister, sister!" he would announce in his own
vernacular, and out would come some outlandish english on the cueball.
He never mastered it.
Brad
John Black
br...@whidbey.com says...
> My one pocket buddy came back from the DCC several years ago talking
> about the Philippinos using some sort of back hand english, only with a
> twist of the wrist. "a twister, sister!" he would announce in his own
> vernacular, and out would come some outlandish english on the cueball.
> He never mastered it.
I think it works for the Philippinos. Just like running marathons barefoot
works for the Kenyans but no one else should really try it...
John Black
bk4...@hotmail.com
> But now I have to come to grips with the fact that my experiments with BHE
> indicate that I miss less with BHE (as flawed as it is) than with my
> standard method of applying english. I do make plenty of shots with english
> of course but my miss percentage is way up verses the same shots at center
> ball. I'm at the point now where I *know* the centerball aim line but
> compensating for deflection still seems like such a guess.
And so at this "point", my suggestion would be to work very hard on
developing a very smooth stroke - on every single shot. When you do,
you can stay on the vertical axis (where your highest make percentage
is) and control whitey with the utmost confidence. I wish I knew how
to explain it better, but that Buddy Hall/Ralf Souquet smoothness is
where it's at.
And it's true for most sports with a throwing type action. Dan
Marino's trainer used to have him throw the football while he chanted,
"Smooth, smooth, smoooooooth, sssmmmmooooooooootthhhh.......".
Bob Keller
(getting ready for the next question, "How do you develop a smooth
stroke?")
M@man
over here on the west coast a circle of us call it "cross stroking"
i f you use your cue stick as an aiming technique--(Hal Mix's
technique) this system is easy to use---aim your shot the way you
would to make it without english, then simply pivot your cue on your
bridge hand to the inside or outside of the shot.. E.G. if your
shooting a half ball shot your aim center CB should look like the
center line of your shaft will be aimed at the edge of the OB.---again
if your not familiar with Hals book, this is gonna sound Chinese---now
cross stroke a right handed shot to the inside. DO NOT SHIFT YOUR
BODY---only pivot the cue on your bridge hand. it works great for cut
shots up the rail when lve requires to get to the end of the table but
angle doesn't allow it naturally.
try this one---place OB half ball off rail past side pocket--place CB
three balls off same rail and give yourself a thin cut up the rail to
the corner pocket---aim it without english the cross-stroke to the
inside of the shot---slow speed stroke will give you maximum spin to
go three rails (Dbl z bank sorta 3 rails) towards the CP you just made
the shot in.
Jack Stein
> My one pocket buddy came back from the DCC several years ago talking
> about the Philippinos using some sort of back hand english, only with a
> twist of the wrist. "a twister, sister!" he would announce in his own
> vernacular, and out would come some outlandish english on the cueball.
> He never mastered it.
I fooled around a little with BHE but all I noticed is I seemed to get a
LOT more spin with that method. I used it for a while on shots where I
needed a ton of english. I was always a bit amazed the ball went where
I wanted it to go, instead of where I was pointing the cue. I think I
still use it rarely, mostly on those side pocket shots where you want to
hit the rail with a boat load of spin to get the ball down table.
--
Jack
Got Change: Global warming ====> Global lies!
http://jbstein.com