Hall of Fame nominees
Bob Johnson
FOR IMMEDIATE RELEASE
December 19, 2003
2004 BCA Hall of Fame Ballots
Actor Jerry Orbach scheduled to attend ceremony to honor inductees
The Billiard Congress of America is pleased to announce the candidates for
the 2004 BCA Hall of Fame ballots.
Nominated in the Greatest Players category are:
Allen Hopkins
Ewa Mataya Laurance
Earl Strickland
Nominated in the Meritorious Service category are:
George Balabushka (legendary cue maker)
Terry Bell & Larry Hubbart (founders of the American Poolplayers
Association)
Maurice Daly (billiard player, instructor and promoter)
BCA President Skip Nemecek said, "We are particularly pleased with this
year's ballot. All candidates have distinguished themselves through their
sustained outstanding play or by their major contributions to the sport and
the industry. I know that when I receive my ballots, voting will not be
easy."
The Induction Ceremony will be held on Thursday, April 1, 2004 at the Las
Vegas Hilton. Actor Jerry Orbach, star of NBC's Law & Order, will be the
BCA's special guest to help the industry honor the 2004 inductees. "Everyone
is invited to attend this spectacular event," said BCA Executive Director
Stephen Ducoff. "The ceremony gives people a chance to meet the legends of
billiards, get their autographs and perhaps hear a great billiard story or
two."
All BCA Business Members will receive their ballots at the end of December,
with completed ballots due by the end of January 2004. The Greatest Players
ballot will be separate from the Meritorious Service ballot. BCA Business
Members may vote for no more than one candidate on each ballot. The 2004
inductees will be announced in February 2004.
Tickets for the Induction Ceremony are available now from the BCA for $35
each. For details on the event and to order tickets online, please visit
www.bca-pool.com and look for the Hall of Fame link on the home page.
Detailed information on each Hall of Fame candidate is also available on the
BCA website.
--
Bob Johnson, Denver, Co.
bo...@cris.com
Bob Johnson
inducted for meritorious service. It's about time, considering Mr. Rambow
is the only cuemaker inducted thus far.
How the hell are they going to decide the greatest player category. I'd say
all 3 are deserving, and I'd put them all in, but I don't think that's
supposed to happen!
--
Bob Johnson, Denver, Co.
bo...@cris.com
"Bob Johnson" <bo...@cris.com> wrote in message
news:bs0cg8$c...@dispatch.concentric.net...
Deno J. Andrews
it, Balabushka was a well made cue stick of the time. However, if Paul
Newman had said Rambow instead of Balabushka in the movie, most people today
would still think a Balabushka was something eastern european women wore on
their heads. Maurice Daly wrote THE book on striaght rail and balkline and
is still a book full of value and information today. He was a room owner,
teacher, coach, and heavily involved in promoting tournaments and match
play...and influenced almost every great player of his day. Besides making
a few cues that later became famous, what is it that Balabushka did? I
mean, if we go the cue maker route, Burton Spain should be inducted as he
did most of the work on Balabushka cues by making the full splice blanks.
And as far as the greatest player category goes, I think it's a joke that
the BCA chose thress players that are pretty much all still active. I don't
think any other sport in the world inducts active players into their halls
of fame. But, it's just another example of the billiard industry's mission
to do it half-baked, as they have done for over fifty years. Sad.
Deno J. Andrews
"Bob Johnson" <bo...@cris.com> wrote in message
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JoeyA
remember it is only a dream.
JoeyA
"Bob Johnson" <bo...@cris.com> wrote in message
news:bs0cg8$c...@dispatch.concentric.net...
Bob Johnson
reached 40 years of age within the calendar year it is awarded and who have
been active in national or foreign competition for at least 20 years and
have won at least one national or foreign championship recognized by the
BCA." I'm guessing that since the H of F is relatively new, (first
inductions, 1966), that there was an attempt to build a body of members, as
in playing a little catch up.
Doesn't golf induct active players also? Without checking, it seems I
remember in the past year or so, a pro golfer being interviewed about his
induction, at the end of a tournament he had just finished playing in. I
know that under the BCA's present rule and guideline, the year that Allison
turns 40, I'll expect her to be inducted! As for current men players,
Archer might be another that should be considered at 40.
This isn't like pro football or baseball, with a seemingly unending supply
of drugged up and drunken participants to consider for the hall, think
Lawrence Taylor! Now there's a deserving inductee in anyone's Hall of Fame!
While we're on the subject of Hall of Fame inductions, did you know the
Broncos are the only NFL team, other than the absolute latest expansion
teams, with no Hall of Fame inductees or members. When Elway goes in, he'll
be the first! There have been no other deserving players from the Broncos
in the past 40+ years! Supposedly, this is because of the NFL's complete
lack of respect for both the team and the city.
(Randy Gradishar, as I'm sure the Ohio State fans will agree, should have
been a sure bet! There are numerous others).
--
Bob Johnson, Denver, Co.
bo...@cris.com
"Deno J. Andrews" <denoa...@sbcglobal.net> wrote in message
news:bgZEb.260$7b3...@newssvr24.news.prodigy.com...
goo...@xhost.org
>And as far as the greatest player category goes, I think it's a joke
that
>the BCA chose thress players that are pretty much all still active.
I don't
>think any other sport in the world inducts active players into their
halls
>of fame.
The LPGA (Ladies' Professional Golf Association) inducts members as
soon as they reach established quotas of wins, majors, etc.
-- Larry
Bob Johnson
now are Jose Parica, (there's a very good article in the latest BD), and
Grady Mathews. Grady and the BCA have had their very vocal differences, but
when the chips are down, I think he'll be inducted.
I'd have to say, if Karen Corr continues on the path she's on, she'll make
it someday also. Jeanette remains to be seen.
--
Bob Johnson, Denver, Co.
bo...@cris.com
"Bob Johnson" <bo...@cris.com> wrote in message
news:bs1tko$c...@dispatch.concentric.net...
JAM
candidates for the 2004 BCA Hall of Fame ballots. Nominated in the Greatest
Allen is DEFINITELY worthy for the HOF. He holds numerous championship titles
and promotes the BEST tournaments in the sport, Valley Forge as an example.
It would also be nice to see Ewa inducted into the HOF, also very, very worthy.
Earl Strickland may have his own reasons to be or not to be inducted, but if
selected, I can't imagine he'd turn it down.
There are some other folks who are worthy for induction, but, hey, there's
always the next time.
JAM
JAM
of induction right now are Jose Parica, (there's a very good article in the
Shocking news that BD actually published a nice article about Jose Parica and
Grady Mathews (ABOUT DAMN TIME), the same magazine who credits Ewa Mataya for
the successful impact of the movie, "The Color of Money," with no mention of
Grady, Howard, Mike Sigel, or Keith.
JAM
Bob Johnson
Jose only, not both he and Grady. Also, Mr. Parica graces the cover.
--
Bob Johnson, Denver, Co.
bo...@cris.com
"JAM" <jama...@aol.comnojunk> wrote in message
news:20031220124257...@mb-m28.aol.com...
JAM
article is about Jose only, not both he and Grady. Also, Mr. Parica graces the
cover."
That's great news, and I know Jose will love it!
JAM
Dan White
news:bgZEb.260$7b3...@newssvr24.news.prodigy.com...
face
> it, Balabushka was a well made cue stick of the time. However, if Paul
> Newman had said Rambow instead of Balabushka in the movie, most people
today
> would still think a Balabushka was something eastern european women wore
on
> their heads. Maurice Daly wrote THE book on striaght rail and balkline
and
> is still a book full of value and information today.
Yes, but nobody really plays billiards, do they?
:)
dwhite
Dan White
> Shocking news that BD actually published a nice article about Jose Parica
and
> Grady Mathews (ABOUT DAMN TIME), the same magazine who credits Ewa Mataya
for
> the successful impact of the movie, "The Color of Money," with no mention
of
> Grady, Howard, Mike Sigel, or Keith.
>
I know Grady and Keith were in the movie. Were any of the others above
actually in it? What did Ewa do to help the movie?
curious,
dwhite
Bob Johnson
married to Ewa at the time, and Sigel was Tom Cruise's coach and an advisor
on the film. Mike's wife had a bit part, I think as a waitress. Harold
Simonsen of Pool & Billiards fame was the TD in Atlantic City, and Steve
Mizerak got his butt handed to him by Newman, ("I didn't deserve that!").
Grady and Keith you remember. Don Feeney was a referee. Am I forgetting
anyone?
--
Bob Johnson, Denver, Co.
bo...@cris.com
"Dan White" <dwh...@erols.com> wrote in message
news:3fe53945$0$4738$61fe...@news.rcn.com...
Dan White
> Howard Vickery was in the movie, along with Jimmy Mataya,
Well now you have to tell me which characters they were, since I do not know
what either of these guys looks like...
dwhite
Bob Johnson
the same part in the movie where the old lady in the visor exchanges games
with him. He's bald with a bushy beard, and it seems they had him wearing a
hat or cap. Usually has glasses on. Jimmy Mataya is the dark haired guy
that's with Julian when he stops to say hi to Eddie at Atlantic City. Don
"The Preacher" Feeney is an old road player that has a series of
instructional tapes out, and I think he's a ref in the Atlantic City scenes.
Harold Simonsen has the deep voice as the tournament director, and you see
him briefly up at the table welcoming the players to AC. BTW, Dan Janes
made all the cues, including Eddie's Bushka.
--
Bob Johnson, Denver, Co.
bo...@cris.com
"Dan White" <dwh...@erols.com> wrote in message
news:3fe5443d$0$4760$61fe...@news.rcn.com...
JAM
others above actually in it? What did Ewa do to help the movie?"
There was a poll in Bililard Digest magazine on what was the most significant
thing that impacted pool in the last decade, and the winner was "The Color of
Money."
Ewa was interviewed by a New York magazine, and Billiards Digest credits this
interview of Ewa as the reason why "The Color of Money" had such a huge impact
on the industry, with no mention of Grady, Howard, Keith, Mike Sigel, et al.
JAM
Fred Agnir
"JAM" <jama...@aol.comnojunk> wrote
>
> Ewa was interviewed by a New York magazine, and Billiards Digest credits
this
> interview of Ewa as the reason why "The Color of Money" had such a huge
impact
> on the industry, with no mention of Grady, Howard, Keith, Mike Sigel, et
al.
>
Wasn't the interview with the New York Times magazine (early 90's?) well
after The Color of Money (1986)? I would think that BD would have credited
Ewa's interview AND credited the movie as two of the huge impacts on the
current industry wave. But I wouln't think that they would say that Ewa had
anything to do with the success of the The Color of Money and its impact on
the industry.
Fred
JAM
(early 90's?) well after The Color of Money (1986)? I would think that BD
would have credited Ewa's interview AND credited the movie as two of the huge
impacts on the
current industry wave. But I wouln't think that they would say that Ewa had
anything to do with the success of the The Color of Money and its impact on the
industry."
Page 72 of the October 2003 Billiards Digest magazine has an article called
"Most Significant Event: 'The Color of Money (1986).'" The last sentence of
the article is as follows: "The 1992 Ewa Mataya profile in The New York Times
Magazine gave the 'Color of Money' room boom legs, and brought the industry to
where it stands today."
The 2003 Readers Poll published poll results as release of "The Color of Money"
as the winner with 35 percent of the readers' votes.
There was no mention of Mike Sigel, the movie's technical director, Grady
Mathews, Howard Vickery, Keith McCready, Jimmy Mataya, et al., in the article.
JAM
ratchet
>>>> Ratchet <<<<
Ratchet ----- Liked when The Miz said (second time)" I did'nt deserve that "
Newman says " Yes you did " hehehehe
Deno J. Andrews
Deno
"Dan White" <dwh...@erols.com> wrote in message
news:3fe538b2$0$4756$61fe...@news.rcn.com...
ratchet
we did to Football ( their football is our soccer ) and made it all our own !!
to me ,( whatever game gets a fellow off his "bum" hehe and gets him to the
field of green ) it's a way to get out and socialize playing (at best ) among a
field of my peers and here in the states we play 9 ball or 8 ball , I ( vaguely
) remember playing ( straight pool , at least thats what he called it ) when I
was about 8 or 9
years old with old man who owned the neighborhood watering hole but cant
remember the details ?? Is it shoot at whatever til you miss counting the balls
run and calling your shots ie.pockets, kisses, banks and caroms ???I would like
to learn the other games too if I had a teacher , are not all pool games
basically bastardized from the original game anyways ??if so , which game was it
?? I would say it was snooker, But I wouldnt bet the farm on it
Ratchet ----- always ready to play , sometimes if not most ( here lately )not
able to pay !!
Tracy Beal
Tracy Beal
announcer for a match. He was very entertaining and actually did a pretty
good job.
Tracy
"Tracy Beal" <tvb...@NOSPAMearthlink.net> wrote in message
news:apjFb.3312$IM3....@newsread3.news.atl.earthlink.net...
Tracy Beal
state of billiards economy. That said, think how nice Hall of Famer would
look in Cuetec or Brunswick full page glossy ads. It's all about the money.
I don't hold that against them, it's just that I am not surprised at what
they do. On the Balabushka nomination, I don't know what he did for
billiards besides making cues. Was there anything else? If not I would say
Daly is the better choice.
Tracy
"JAM" <jama...@aol.comnojunk> wrote in message
Frank Glenn
tvb...@NOSPAMearthlink.net says...
:|:On the Balabushka nomination, I don't know what he did for
:|:billiards besides making cues. Was there anything else? If not I would say
:|:Daly is the better choice.
:|:
I agree. Name recognition is my guess. More people will recognize
Balabushka than Daly (ex mayors excluded, LOL)
--
Frank Glenn
reply to rsb _at_ quick-clean.com (change _at_ to @)
Tony DeAngelo
TCOM. That movie was a shoe-in blockbuster from the get go. If I
remember correctly some MAJOR magazine (much, much bigger than the N.Y.
Times, possibly Time or Newsweek...or Peephole) featured a special issue
with either Cruise or Newman on the cover with the other underneath. I
remember being offended that the media was essentially making it a
tossup as to who was the bigger star. Plus, the movie was a
much-anticipated sequel, and don't forget Newman's Acadamy award. No,
that movie did for pool what Urban Cowboy did for C%W music or Saturday
Night Fever did for disco (hey, maybe John Travolta should have played
Vincent!).
JAM
the impact of TCOM."
Agreed, Tony. It is interesting to see how the media perceives things from
their standpoint. BD invited its readership to participate in a poll about
what had the biggest impact on pool, and the results were published in ths
October 2003 issue.
Mike Sigel's name should have been included in the article. The fact that the
movie used "real" pool players is significant (IMO).
When I attend tournaments with KM, the thing he is most recognized for today is
that "nightmare" line. Most folks do not know of his level of play when he was
The California Kid or Keither with the Ether. I must say when he is
recognized, it always brings smiles on the faces of those who see him for the
first time in person, and then he is queried about TCOM, how much did he get
paid, what is Tom Cruise and/or Paul Newman like, how did he get the part, "Let
me hear you say it," et cetera.
BD, InsidePOOL, and Pool and Billiards magazines have representatives who are
voting members on the BCA Hall of Fame Committee, to stay in line with this
thread.
When I perused the BCA website and read the bios of each Hall of Famer, I
discovered a wealth of knowledge, names I had not heard of before, i.e.,
Michael Phelan, a guy from the 1800's who is credited with the diamonds which
are on most pool tables today.
The pool public is so diverse, making it difficult to capture the essence of
the sport for a magazine (IMO), and the sport's attraction is also varied.
Maybe Jim Rempe is right when he expresses his desire for tournament venues to
be in ballrooms requiring men to wear tuxedos, to add an air of elegance.
KM told me of a time when he attended a tournament that required tuxedos.
Efren had a bright blue cumberbun, and Keith's was, of all colors, PINK. I had
trouble envisioning some of the players playing in tuxedos, wondering if it
would hinder their performance or actually increase it because of the formality
of a dress code like this.
Of the three folks the BCA has selected, Allen Hopkins, Ewa, and Earl, I'd like
to see Allen get it. At tournaments when he's a player and not a promoter, he
goes out of his way to schmooze with folks, and he's very approachable. If you
happen to catch him in the bar, he ALWAYS buys a round of drinks for all. At
the recent Glass City Open, Allen Hopkins performed well, and you could see
that he was actually enjoying himself as a player. Now that it has been
narrowed down to three, I'm pulling for Allen Hopkins.
JAM
ratchet
JAM wrote:
Ratchet------> wondering why he wasn't nominated ??? after all I have contributed
greatly to the sport ..... Mostly in Quarters !!! hehehehe
Frank Glenn
:|:(hey, maybe John Travolta should have played
:|:Vincent!).
:|:
:|:
He would have been good in that role.
Frank Glenn
jama...@aol.comnojunk says...
:|: At tournaments when he's a player and not a promoter, he
:|:goes out of his way to schmooze with folks, and he's very approachable.
Yes, he is. I have had many conversations with him even before my
getting involved in the industry. Ewa went to the "opening" of many
many pool halls. This was when there was no Internet or CNN type
instant news. She was well known and well liked and is also
very"approachable". She has been a good ambassadorr for the game, and
her nomination is also well deserved, IMO. I would be torn to choose.
Earl's record stands for itself. He dominated for quite a while. And
actually, away from the table, he is a likable guy (as long as he
isn't on his way to or from a match). Like a lot of the male Pro's,
he is very intense. Efren and Alex and Keith are probably the most
laid back players to approach. Ralf is pretty easy to approach, too.
Some of the others will take your head off, but then I have bad days,
too. ;^}
Frank Glenn
says...
:|:Ratchet------> wondering why he wasn't nominated ???
:|:
Because you don't know how to trim your quotes, IMO.
ratchet
by
" trim " my quotes ??? "
Smorgass Bored
Ratchet------> wondering why he wasn't nominated ???
Because you don't know how to trim your quotes, IMO.
--
Frank Glenn
(*<~ Amen, Glenn.
expert trimmer... imo
Doug
~>*(((>< Big fish eat Little fish ><)))*<~
Smorgass Bored
When I attend tournaments with KM, the thing he is most recognized for
today is that "nightmare" line. Most folks do not know of his level of
play when he was The California Kid or Keither with the Ether.
(*<~ The California Kid ? I thought Jerry Bento was The California
Kid. You mean, Jerry stole that name from Keith ?
( OY-VEY ! )
Of the three folks the BCA has selected, Allen Hopkins, Ewa, and Earl,
I'd like to see Allen get it. At tournaments when he's a player and not
a promoter, he goes out of his way to schmooze with folks, and he's very
approachable.
JAM
(*<~ I'll say he's approachable and popular. I was sweatin him
playing some one-pocket at the Sports Palace in New Orleans in the early
80s and got him to autograph a one dollar bill. When I moved to Tampa in
1987, I sold that dollar for FIVE DOLLARS. Now, how did the buyer know
if it was even Allen's 'REAL' autograph ?
wish I had a wheelbarrow full of autographed 'ones'... imo
(I'll give Keith fifty cents for every dollar of his that he autographs
for ME)
Doug
Seriously, Keith should get some uncirculated one's (think TCOM) and
sign them with his famous line & autograph and 'part with them' for FIVE
DOLLARS each..
Joe Van
>But Daly did far more for the game than did Balabushka. I mean, let's face
>it, Balabushka was a well made cue stick of the time. However, if Paul
>Newman had said Rambow instead of Balabushka in the movie, most people today
>would still think a Balabushka was something eastern european women wore on
>their heads.<<
Daly?? He did a lot for billiards and his book was the book of his day. But in
the
same token Balabushka was the cue in his day. Had he said Rambow in TCOM
at the time, alot of people would have wondered when Stallone got into
cuemaking.. :) But seriously, Rambow started the two piece custom cue
movement but Bushka perfected (refined) it..
>Maurice Daly wrote THE book on striaght rail and balkline and
>is still a book full of value and information today. He was a room owner,
>teacher, coach, and heavily involved in promoting tournaments and match
>play...and influenced almost every great player of his day. Besides making
>a few cues that later became famous, what is it that Balabushka did?
Ok then, how much is the best example of Daly's book worth? Care to put it
against
a Bushka? A few cues.. around 1200 cues that were used to win more tournaments
between 1960 and 1980 than any other cue. Also note that Balabushka cues are
the most sought after cue there is.. period. You cannot say that about any of
Daly's books. Balabushka was also a room proprietor and promoted the sport in
the best way he knew how. Do you think for a second that Balabushka didn't
influence, in some fashion, everyone of the 500 or so cuemakers on the planet?
What the hell do they smoke in Chicago?
>I mean, if we go the cue maker route, Burton Spain should be inducted as he
>did most of the work on Balabushka cues by making the full splice blanks.<<
Deno, you should know better than this and Joel should give you a better cue
history lesson.
Burton's blanks of that time were shorty blanks. Full splice blanks evolved
much later in Burtons career. Way after the death of Bushka. But if you want to
go that route do you want to take away Rambow for his use of Brunswick Hoppe
cues for the base model of his cues? Making the blank is far from "most of the
work".
Lets face it. both these guys should be in the HOF.
Joe
Bob Johnson
bar, on how to gamble at pool. It's actually good for a stereotypical
laugh! Personally, I've never been able to figure out what a lady as classy
as Ewa saw in him, and it kind of makes me wonder about Mitch! ;>)
--
Bob Johnson, Denver, Co.
bo...@cris.com
"Tracy Beal" <tvb...@NOSPAMearthlink.net> wrote in message
news:aFjFb.3342$IM3....@newsread3.news.atl.earthlink.net...
Bob Johnson
looking at the next 5 or 6 years of inductees. I'm not sure where Grady
fits in the picture, but it will be very interesting to watch when that
finally happens.
--
Bob Johnson, Denver, Co.
bo...@cris.com
"JAM" <jama...@aol.comnojunk> wrote in message
news:20031221133438...@mb-m03.aol.com...
Donald Tees
> In article <pWjFb.3367$IM3....@newsread3.news.atl.earthlink.net>,
> tvb...@NOSPAMearthlink.net says...
> :|:On the Balabushka nomination, I don't know what he did for
> :|:billiards besides making cues. Was there anything else? If not I would say
> :|:Daly is the better choice.
> :|:
> :|:
> I agree. Name recognition is my guess. More people will recognize
> Balabushka than Daly (ex mayors excluded, LOL)
In terms of economic impact, I would bet that cue sales are far bigger
in revenues that tables, or even players for that matter. That has
become an entire industry, all by itself.
Donald
JAM
you're probably looking at the next 5 or 6 years of inductees. I'm not sure
where Grady fits in the picture, but it will be very interesting to watch when
that finally happens."
Bob, in the same October 2003 Billiards Digest magazine on page 74, Allison
Fisher was voted Best Female Pocket Billiards Player. The results were as
follows: Allison Fisher, 55 percent; Jean Balukas, 34 percent; Karen Corr, 7
percent; Jeannette Lee, 3 percent; Ewa Mataya Laurance, 1 percent, and Loree
Jon Jones, 0 percent.
Of course, Jose Parica will ALWAYS be my personal favorite choice if the BCA
ever decides to include him in this list of nominees.
So there is no actual place known as the Pool Hall of Fame. It is an honor
bestowed to those worthy enough to be included by the BCA into the "Hall of
Fame."
I remember driving home from Syracuse and passing a very small obscure little
sign that had an arrow pointing to the right that said, "Boxing Hall of Fame."
If I hadn't been so sleep-deprived and anxious to get back home, I would have
stopped.
I wonder if pool will ever have an actual building designated to Hall of Famers
with cue sticks, cue balls, memorabilia, paraphernalia, gadgets, and, God
forbid, wax statues. I think I already know the answer.
JAM
JAM
Bob Johnson
Springs at the BCA headquarters. Right now, I think it's just one room in
their leased facility, but I think future plans will include expansion. I'm
ashamed to say it, but as close as I live to them, I haven't been down there
since they moved to the Springs from Coralville. Now they're in one of
Grady's old stomping grounds.
--
Bob Johnson, Denver, Co.
bo...@cris.com
"JAM" <jama...@aol.comnojunk> wrote in message
news:20031221153216...@mb-m03.aol.com...
Ron Shepard
> with
> the impact of TCOM."
I agree with this, but Ewa did something a little differently than
the movie. She was the first woman player to, in a legitimate
sense, have some mainstream popularity. In addition to the NY Times
article there were also the Leggs panty hose commercials.
As far as the movie goes, I expect that if every pool player in the
movie had been replaced with an actor, it would have had exactly the
same impact on pool that it did. I think it was sort of a neat
thing that they did cast real players, but I doubt that anyone
outside of our subculture really cared.
I probably watch the movie once a year or so. My problem with it is
that, although the production quality is excellent, I just don't
care much for the characters. The Fast Eddie character overcomes a
little internal strife in the middle of the movie, but no one else
achieves anything, and his little story is not the main plot.
Somehow, even the gorgous Mary Elizabeth Mastrantonio's character is
unappealing by the end of the movie; how they achieved that feat is
beyond my comprehension.
I wish that they had stayed closer to the story in the book. If
they had, I think the positive impact of the movie on the pool
industry would have been even larger than it was, and almost
certainly it would have been more permanent.
$.02 -Ron Shepard
Roger Orsulak
No argument about Daly and his influence, but you really struck a nerve with
the Balabushka/TCOM comment. Among players at the time, George's cues along
with those of Gus Szamboti were highly prized, and of course, Gus's were
easier to come by since George had been dead for over 10 years. I'll grant
that your comment does apply to TCPITS (the common person in the street).
However, the way it reads is that the movie "made" George. Nothing could be
further from the truth.
Roger - who remembers embarrassing his wife in the theater by blurting out,
"That's not a Balabushka" when Vincent held it up for all to see.
"Deno J. Andrews" <denoa...@sbcglobal.net> wrote in message
news:bgZEb.260$7b3...@newssvr24.news.prodigy.com...
> But Daly did far more for the game than did Balabushka. I mean, let's
face
> it, Balabushka was a well made cue stick of the time. However, if Paul
> Newman had said Rambow instead of Balabushka in the movie, most people
today
> would still think a Balabushka was something eastern european women wore
on
> their heads. Maurice Daly wrote THE book on striaght rail and balkline
JAM
real players, but I doubt that anyone outside of our subculture really cared."
You would think, though, since TCOM was voted first choice in the Billiards
Digest 2003 Readers Poll that a mention of the "real" pool players would have
been mentioned in a magazine whose readership is this "subculture."
Ron Shepard continues: "I agree with this, but Ewa did something a little
differently than the movie. She was the first woman player to, in a
legitimate sense, have some mainstream popularity. In addition to the NY Times
article there were also the Leggs panty hose commercials."
Much like Steve Metzerak when he experienced mainstream popularity by those
beer commercials.
Who cares about polls, anyway? They really only represent the public's
opinions. When the BCA's Hall of Fame Committee votes, it will be who IN THEIR
OPINION is worthy of inclusion.
JAM
Deno J. Andrews
news:20031221144511...@mb-m07.aol.com...
> cuemaking.. :) But seriously, Rambow started the two piece custom cue
> movement but Bushka perfected (refined) it..
Are you kidding? What Balabushka did was to make shafts, joints and butt
plates. The real construction of some of his most sought after cues was
done by Burton Spain.
> Ok then, how much is the best example of Daly's book worth? Care to put it
> against
> a Bushka?
This has got to be the more narrow minded, ignorant, and insanely pool
player-like way to compare two things that are not even relevant in the
conversation.
> A few cues.. around 1200 cues that were used to win more tournaments
> between 1960 and 1980 than any other cue.
So the cues were winning the tournaments?
> Also note that Balabushka cues are
> the most sought after cue there is.. period.
Ask yourself why. It is because of superficial worth. A generation learned
the name in a few lines in a popular movie. Had that name been something
else, Balabushka would be known only by those who knew of them the day
before the release of the movie. You can't deny the spike in popularity and
collectibility of Bushkas after TCOM. Before that movie, it was just
another cue from the 60s to the 80s that was in shorter supply than
production cues.
> What the hell do they smoke in Chicago?
Actually, Burton Spain was in Chicago...and just in case you forgot, he is
the cue maker behind what makes most Balabushkas, Balabushkas. Spain was
the one creating the wonderfully perfect blanks for the time. He was the
one full splicing the cues. So whatever it was being smoked in chicago, it
was helping create the cues behind the cues that shaft and joint makers like
Balabushka were buying up like crazy.
> Deno, you should know better than this and Joel should give you a better
cue
> history lesson.
> Burton's blanks of that time were shorty blanks. Full splice blanks
evolved
> much later in Burtons career. Way after the death of Bushka.
Really? I have seen several Burton Spain, full splice, Balabushka cues that
date back to the early 1970s. How do you explain that?
> But if you want to
> go that route do you want to take away Rambow for his use of Brunswick
Hoppe
> cues for the base model of his cues? Making the blank is far from "most of
the
> work".
Well, I spent a good five years in a couple of very well known cue shops
making cues. One of the shops I had the great pleasure of learning a little
about splicing blanks. And even with newer machinery, making spliced butt
blanks was about the hardest thing imaginable. Now I know you have some
experience selling cues...but just what do you think comes near the
difficulty of splicing blanks together? Finishing? probably not because if
you screw it up, you sand back and start over. Joining? Probably not
because that can be redone without much difficulty. Shafts? Screw that one
up and just toss it out and start over. There are more man hours in
splicing blanks properly than any other component...and not only that, it is
the one thing you can't fix if you screw it up. There is no refinishing,
rejoining, etc. of the blank. it is either good, or it isn't usable. That
means that there was a great deal of wasted blanks and man hours getting
them to even a point where you can discover if it will work or not.
And with regard to Rambow, his hands and work were in many of the early
Hoppe splices. That is where he came from- being a Brunswick cue maker.
> Lets face it. both these guys should be in the HOF.
Well, it is a hall of "fame" and I guess no matter how his cues became
famous, they are far more famous than Rambows or Spains. That I can't
argue. It's just sad that the BCA would put up apples against oranges in
that category. Balabushka will be a no-brainer in that category.
Deno J. Andrews
Deno J. Andrews
what the hell a Balabushka was. In fact, if you took all of the pool
players who played at the time, and I mean them all, including the basement
players, still only a small number of people knew who he or it was. TCOM
did make Balabushka famous. I am not denying he turned out a nice product
(there is one in my closet with my Rambows), but his being well known would
today be restricted to only a small percentage of pool players who are in
the know about cues of the 60s and 70s, had it not been for TCOM. Sure,
they are nice, but without the movie, he is just another good cue maker of
the time that nobody would have ever heard of outside of a small number of
serious players. I bet that right now, you could take a pointed Viking of
15 years ago, pull it out of a fancy case and present it right, and tell
people who are not in the industry at a cocktail party it is your prized
posession and is a Balabushka pool cue...and there wouldn't be one person
there who would know it from the real thing. There is a difference between
fame and notoriety. THe only reason those sorts of people know the name is
because it was in a movie that made a big deal about the cue, and they
called it a Balabushka. Do you see this any differently?
Deno J. Andrews
"Roger Orsulak" <noma...@worldnet.att.net> wrote in message
news:AKoFb.224692$Ec1.7...@bgtnsc05-news.ops.worldnet.att.net...
Joe Van
>Are you kidding? What Balabushka did was to make shafts, joints and butt
>plates. The real construction of some of his most sought after cues was
>done by Burton Spain.<<
Actually thats not even close. Bushka's most sought after cues are done with
the blanks by Gus. Its also when he was at his most creative. But thats
irrelevant.
>This has got to be the more narrow minded, ignorant, and insanely pool
>player-like way to compare two things that are not even relevant in the
>conversation.<<
Thats cause you know its true. Its also because you cannot play pool
with a book. Fact is Daly will only be known as an author, an obscure one
at that. Further more, only really known in billiard circles. Where Balabushka
is synonomous with the two piece cue.
>> A few cues.. around 1200 cues that were used to win more tournaments
>> between 1960 and 1980 than any other cue.
>
>So the cues were winning the tournaments?<<
Is that what that says? I don't think so. But nice try.
>Ask yourself why. It is because of superficial worth. A generation learned
>the name in a few lines in a popular movie. Had that name been something
>else, Balabushka would be known only by those who knew of them the day
>before the release of the movie. You can't deny the spike in popularity and
>collectibility of Bushkas after TCOM. Before that movie, it was just
>another cue from the 60s to the 80s that was in shorter supply than
>production cues.<<
This is asinine and pure speculation. Balabushka's have been "the" pool cue
way before TCOM. They have been the most sought after cues for a long time.
More than Rambows, Martins, Brittners etc.. why? Because about every pro
had one. They hit good, and GB built a reputation long before TCOM.
Ask yourself this, the cue that was in TCOM was a Joss, widely known,
has Joss become an out of reach collectible? Hell no.
>Really? I have seen several Burton Spain, full splice, Balabushka cues that
>date back to the early 1970s. How do you explain that?<<
Because you haven't. Next you will say that they were full spliced AND had a
ring
above the wrap. It wasn't until 1992 that BS developed his full splice cue due
to
weight considerations. The cues may have had a small extension of the point
wood but in no means were full splice. Thus meaning the point wood went all the
way to the butt cap.
>>Snip your homage to splicing<<
Look the splicing was nice. But Bushkas played well not because of the splice.
They played well because of everything he put into the cue along with the
spliced forearms.
Joe
Joe Van
>The point is that absolutely nobody outside a small number of players knew
>what the hell a Balabushka was. In fact, if you took all of the pool
>players who played at the time, and I mean them all, including the basement
>players, still only a small number of people knew who he or it was. TCOM
>did make Balabushka famous.
Really?? I bet more of them knew who Bushka was over Daly.
> I am not denying he turned out a nice product (there is one in my closet with
my Rambows), but his being well known would today be restricted to only a small
percentage of pool players who are in the know about cues of the 60s and 70s,
had it not been for TCOM. Sure,
>they are nice, but without the movie, he is just another good cue maker of
>the time that nobody would have ever heard of outside of a small number of
>serious players. <<
TCOM bought pool into the boom it had and that in turn started the boom in cue
collecting.
I guarantee that regardless of who's cue they mentioned, Bushka would have been
still
the cue to have. Look they didn't say Szamboti and I bet that Bushka and
Szamboti are 1 and 1a for collectability. So explain to me how a cue not even
mentioned in TCOM is so highly
sought after, even moreso than a Rambow?
> I bet that right now, you could take a pointed Viking of
>15 years ago, pull it out of a fancy case and present it right, and tell
>people who are not in the industry at a cocktail party it is your prized
>posession and is a Balabushka pool cue...and there wouldn't be one person
>there who would know it from the real thing.<<
This is the most pool playerish thing that one could have said.. well if I
asked a professional
pool player who Maurice Daly was I would bet 1-100 might have a clue. But no
more than that.
>THe only reason those sorts of people know the name is
>because it was in a movie that made a big deal about the cue, and they
>called it a Balabushka. Do you see this any differently?
No, since no one would know, or does know, who Daly is.
Joe
Deno J. Andrews
From: "Joe Van" <class...@aol.com>
> Thats cause you know its true. Its also because you cannot play pool
> with a book. Fact is Daly will only be known as an author, an obscure one
> at that. Further more, only really known in billiard circles. Where
Balabushka
> is synonomous with the two piece cue.
Actually, Daly was more known as a coach/teacher/promoter, which is why
people purchased his book. The book is what is left for the average joe to
see and read. But if you think that Daly was only an obscure author, you
obviously don't know the history very well.
> This is asinine and pure speculation. Balabushka's have been "the" pool
cue
> way before TCOM. They have been the most sought after cues for a long
time.
> More than Rambows, Martins, Brittners etc.. why? Because about every pro
> had one.
Sure they did, all twenty of them! Come on Joe, maybe in your little world
of pool players the word Balabushka is tossed around with deity status...but
make no mistake that that little world is, well, how can I put it...LITTLE.
Every pro. Big deal. Most people outside the pool clique believe Minnesota
Fats was the greatest player to ever play. And before TCOM, unless you were
a serious pool player who happened to want to know something about cues, you
had never heard of Balabushka. People outside the pool player world (the
little one remember) hadn't a clue of what a Balabushka was, nor did they
care. I find it hilarious that you basically deny that TCOM gave the
Balabushka name to the public and made it synonimous with the two piece cue.
I notice on your web site that you have a few Bushkas for sale...and you
have no Rambows, btw.
> They hit good, and GB built a reputation long before TCOM.
So did a bunch of other cue makers, what happened to them?
> Ask yourself this, the cue that was in TCOM was a Joss, widely known,
> has Joss become an out of reach collectible? Hell no.
Because it is not widely known. Maybe it is in your world (that little pool
one from earlier). But if you ask a hundred people walking down the street
what the cue in TCOM was, the ones who will think they know will say
Balabushka. That is because it is not widely known outside of your own head
and the world (know which one?) it lives in.
> weight considerations. The cues may have had a small extension of the
point
> wood but in no means were full splice. Thus meaning the point wood went
all the
> way to the butt cap.
I think you ought to go back and do more research.
> Look the splicing was nice. But Bushkas played well not because of the
splice.
> They played well because of everything he put into the cue along with the
> spliced forearms.
The cues played well. I hate to be the one to break it to you, but
Balabushka was just another great cue maker. He was not a god, nor was he
the greatest cue maker to ever live. A bunch of pool players thought of his
cues as great cues, and rightfully so because they were great cues.
However, it was not until TCOM that his name became known as the cue de tat
to the public. I guarantee you before TCOM, you take a random sample of
1000 people walking in any downtown of any city and ask them what a
Balabushka is, and far fewer (if any of course) would know compared to now.
So I will yield and say that yes, in the 60s-80s, a very small population of
pool players (probably only in the thousands) would have considered the
Balabushka collectible. Maybe they would want it as a good playing cue
stick...but collectible like for collectors...nobody had a clue. You don't
hear of any collectors who purchased their Balabushkas in the 60s because
they were one day going to be worth big money. Instead, you hear only of
players who bought them.
Deno J. Andrews
Vader93490
>Efren had a bright blue cumberbun, and Keith's was, of all colors, PINK
Would that be the match that they played back in... IIRC.... 1988 at the
Brunswick World Open where Keith came out the winner in that match?
It looked like to me that the cumberbun that Keith had on was a reddish looking
color, not pink. But, perhaps I have the year wrong and the match.
>I had
>trouble envisioning some of the players playing in tuxedos, wondering if it
>would hinder their performance or actually increase it because of the
>formality
>of a dress code like this.
It can and often does inhibit some facets of your stroke but I think Jimmy has
a point that if the tux's came back, that it would present an air of elegance
and professionalism back to the game. After all, this game was the sport of
royalty back in the 19th century.
Vader93490
>:|:Vincent!).
>:|:
>:|:
>
>He would have been good in that role.
>--
>Frank Glenn
>reply to rsb _at_ quick-clean.com (change _at_ to @)
>
Yes he would, especially with "Werewolves of London" playing... Travolta could
have broken out into one of his Saturday Night Fever moves while running out.
Smorgass Bored
Vader cracked me up with:
... but I think Jimmy has a point that if the tux's came back, that it
would present an air of elegance and professionalism back to the game.
(*<~ I'm picturing some players in a tuxedo (with tails):
Nick Varner
Buddy Hall
Howard Vickery
Shannon Daulton
not to mention:
Licking County Slim
DumboCT
Hustlin Hank
Moi
oh, and Jennifer from Hard Times..
Joe Van
denoa...@sbcglobal.net writes:
Actually, Daly was more known as a coach/teacher/promoter, which is why
people purchased his book. The book is what is left for the average joe to
see and read. But if you think that Daly was only an obscure author, you
obviously don't know the history very well.<<
I know history fine, but the fact remains right now more pool people know who
Bushka is
than they do Daly. If Daly was SO well known, then tell me why this is the
case.
>>Sure they did, all twenty of them! Come on Joe, maybe in your little world
of pool players the word Balabushka is tossed around with deity status...but
make no mistake that that little world is, well, how can I put it...LITTLE.<<
Whats little, is that billiard mentality you have.
>>Every pro. Big deal. Most people outside the pool clique believe Minnesota
Fats was the greatest player to ever play. >>
I know, and you know what.. they identify him with more reverence than Schaffer
or
Hoppe.. amazing isn't it. And it burns your ass.
>>And before TCOM, unless you were a serious pool player who happened to want
to know something about cues, you had never heard of Balabushka. <<
This must be a mid western thing because I was in pool before TCOM and the
Bushka
was THE cue to have. You want to say its because I was 25 miles from Bushka.
Outside of a Szamboti, but only because he was alive.
>>People outside the pool player world (the little one remember) hadn't a clue
of what a Balabushka was, nor did they care. >>
Who cares? The BCA is voting, not regular people. For crying out loud, at least
you can
ask a pool player today what a Balabushka is and they know, ask them who Daly
is and you will get the "WHO".
>> I find it hilarious that you basically deny that TCOM gave the
Balabushka name to the public and made it synonimous with the two piece cue.
I notice on your web site that you have a few Bushkas for sale...and you
have no Rambows, btw.<<
I don't deny that TCOM gave pool a kick in the ass, that led to cue collecting.
But
it stands to reason that given the existing status of Bushka, which was already
there, once the collectibility issue arose, it would be the most sought after
cue. As far as us not having Rambows its because a. we turn them down because
there is no market for them outside of maybe 5 people, b. they will never be
the cue a Bushka is. c. Rambow probably made well over 1200 cues in his
lifetime..
>>Because it is not widely known. Maybe it is in your world (that little pool
one from earlier). But if you ask a hundred people walking down the street
what the cue in TCOM was, the ones who will think they know will say
Balabushka. That is because it is not widely known outside of your own head
and the world (know which one?) it lives in.<<
This is total crap.. if you ask a hundred people about the movie that came out
over
15 years ago they will be lucky to remember who starred in it, let alone an
obscure cue
reference. Ask the same hundred people who Willie Hoppe or Daly is. The fact is
that its the pool industry thats voting and like it or not they know who Bushka
is.
>>I think you ought to go back and do more research.<<
No, you need to see enough Bushkas to have a clue.
>>However, it was not until TCOM that his name became known as the cue de tat
to the public.<<
But the public isn't voting..
>> I guarantee you before TCOM, you take a random sample of
1000 people walking in any downtown of any city and ask them what a
Balabushka is, and far fewer (if any of course) would know compared to now.<<
How many would know Daly? How many knows the difference between pocket
billiards
and billiards? Do you know how many people look at a billiard table and say
"shit.. this
table ain't got no pockets..how do you play?" Do you know? Thats how irrelevent
your
author is. Thats how much people outside of pool even know what billiards is.
These are
the same people that KNOW who Minnesota Fats and Mosconi are, but not Schaffer
and
Hoppe.
Let me put in plain English the effect of Balabushka..
1- He made the greatest cues in his time.
2- He was known as that before TCOM.. which is _why_ they used his name. (a
fact you seem to forget...)
3- He dies, leaves 1200 of the most sought after articles in pool..
4- People who have them sell them for $$$ they move on and someone else gets
the cues
5- As a dealer, we sell them, take the money and reinvest it into the pool
industry buying more stock.. cues, tables, accessories..
6- New owner has the nuts in cue collectibility..
7- He gets bored and the cycle starts over again...
His legacy will live on in one way or another long after both of us are gone...
Joe
www.pooltablemagic.net / www.classiccues.com
Deno J. Andrews
> I know history fine, but the fact remains right now more pool people know
who
> Bushka is than they do Daly.
This is my whole point Joe, have you been reading at all? My other point is
that if you look at the two (bushka and daly) and study what either did for
the game, Daly was far more influencial and important than the cue maker.
But the cue maker will get probably an overwhelming vote, not because of
anything he did, but because most of the people voting live by TCOM as their
spiritual guide. I found that to be humorously true in my tenure at Gorina
dealing with industry people.
> If Daly was SO well known, then tell me why this is the
> case.
All I am saying is that industry people or anyone for that matter would look
at both names and say "who?" if it weren't for TCOM. You know it's true
too! Balabushka was a regional cue maker. He was nothing in the midwest,
he was nothing out west...basically, he was just a well known cue maker and
a bunch of great players of the day came from your region. Just like
Kersenbrock was really well known in the midwest before word spread to other
parts of the country of his cues. His cues today are somewhat collectible,
but if the next TCOM comes around and happens to bring up his name, you can
bet that people will be bending over backwards to pick up his
cues...including you.
> Whats little, is that billiard mentality you have.
No, it's the real work mentality. I gave up on the billiard mentality long
ago.
> they identify him with more reverence than Schaffer
> or Hoppe.. amazing isn't it. And it burns your ass.
Well, most seniors know who Hoppe was (and not Balabushka unless they saw
the movie). And by the way, it is Schaeffer...and no, it doesn't burn my
ass. In fact, I am totally comfortable in that people identify pocket
billiards with Fats because while he was nowhere near the best, he does most
closely resemble the pool player mentality to this day. I do find some
comfort in knowing that there are few people under sixty who know what
billiards is. When you run into one of them, you can usually have a good
conversation on just about anything other than who took off who the other
night.
> This must be a mid western thing because I was in pool before TCOM and the
> Bushka
> was THE cue to have. You want to say its because I was 25 miles from
Bushka.
> Outside of a Szamboti, but only because he was alive.
You said it. I remember learning the game thinking I wanted a Kersenbrock.
Why? Because he was a local cue maker. During that time, hardly anyone
outside of the midwest had ever heard of him in any great numbers. Local
legends, that's it...unless something happens like TCOM. Try finding a
bunch of people from LA or SF during the 60s who thought that Bushkas were
THE cue to have. They had their own cue makers out that way- same here in
Chicago. But go to NY and talk to the old timers and it is Bushka this and
Bushka that.
> Who cares? The BCA is voting, not regular people.
You've got that right...not regular by any stretch of the imagination.
> I don't deny that TCOM gave pool a kick in the ass, that led to cue
collecting.
> But
> it stands to reason that given the existing status of Bushka...
I'll take whatever you are smoking. His status was that of a good regional
cue maker until the movie.
> As far as us not having Rambows its because a. we turn them down because
> there is no market for them outside of maybe 5 people, b. they will never
be
> the cue a Bushka is. c. Rambow probably made well over 1200 cues in his
> lifetime..
You don't have any because you can't get your hands on any. When I see
Bushkas for sale on line, they are usually there for a very long time. I
think the buying prices of Bushkas pinnacled long ago and people are not as
crazy for them any more. In fact, there are probably more Bushkas available
today than eight years ago. Rambow is a different animal- he was as close
to production as a single cue maker could be back then. He cranked the cues
out. In fact, he cranked out all the cues for the Hustler. Isn't that
poetic justice? The cue that Fast Eddie was really playing with back then
was a Rambow...not your beloved Bushka.
> that its the pool industry thats voting and like it or not they know who
Bushka
> is.
Of course they do, thanks to TCOM!
> No, you need to see enough Bushkas to have a clue.
Seen plenty. Good cues. But not much better than many of his
contemporaries.
> Let me put in plain English the effect of Balabushka..
> 1- He made the greatest cues in his time.
BS
> 2- He was known as that before TCOM.. which is _why_ they used his name.
(a
> fact you seem to forget...)
Ahhh, BS
> 3- He dies, leaves 1200 of the most sought after articles in pool..
Sought after TCOM.
> 4- People who have them sell them for $$$ they move on and someone else
gets
> the cues
Can't blame them.
> 6- New owner has the nuts in cue collectibility..
Until he tries to get out of it what he has into it. How long have you had
the ones you are selling? And when do you anticipate their sale?
Deno J. Andrews
Dan White
> Fred Agnir posts: "Wasn't the interview with the New York Times magazine
> (early 90's?) well after The Color of Money (1986)? I would think that BD
> would have credited Ewa's interview AND credited the movie as two of the
huge
> impacts on the
> current industry wave. But I wouln't think that they would say that Ewa
had
> anything to do with the success of the The Color of Money and its impact
on the
> industry."
>
> Page 72 of the October 2003 Billiards Digest magazine has an article
called
> "Most Significant Event: 'The Color of Money (1986).'" The last sentence
of
> the article is as follows: "The 1992 Ewa Mataya profile in The New York
Times
> Magazine gave the 'Color of Money' room boom legs, and brought the
industry to
> where it stands today."
>
> The 2003 Readers Poll published poll results as release of "The Color of
Money"
> as the winner with 35 percent of the readers' votes.
>
> There was no mention of Mike Sigel, the movie's technical director, Grady
> Mathews, Howard Vickery, Keith McCready, Jimmy Mataya, et al., in the
article.
>
> JAM
But if they are saying that it was the New York Times Magazine article that
caused the boom, and it happened to be an interview with an attractive woman
playing pool (an unusual angle for most of the uninitiated), then this has
little to do with the movie and those who contributed to make it a popular
one. Your quote above just says that her interview gave legs to the 'room
boom' caused by the movie. I don't see one having anything to do with the
other. OTOH, I have no idea what is in the article.
dwhite
Dan White
> If you look at it globally, billiards is probably far more played than
pool.
> Deno
I know, just teasing, but I doubt that the hall of fame in Colorado??? cares
much about that.
dwhite
>
>
> "Dan White" <dwh...@erols.com> wrote in message
> news:3fe538b2$0$4756$61fe...@news.rcn.com...
> > "Deno J. Andrews" <denoa...@sbcglobal.net> wrote in message
> > news:bgZEb.260$7b3...@newssvr24.news.prodigy.com...
> > > But Daly did far more for the game than did Balabushka. I mean, let's
> > face
> > > it, Balabushka was a well made cue stick of the time. However, if
Paul
> > > Newman had said Rambow instead of Balabushka in the movie, most people
> > today
> > > would still think a Balabushka was something eastern european women
wore
> > on
> > > their heads. Maurice Daly wrote THE book on striaght rail and
balkline
> > and
> > > is still a book full of value and information today.
> >
> >
> > Yes, but nobody really plays billiards, do they?
> >
> > :)
> >
> > dwhite
> >
> >
>
>
Joe Van
> My other point is that if you look at the two (bushka and daly) and study
what either did for
>the game, Daly was far more influencial and important than the cue maker.<<
Look Daly wrote a book.. thats it. You want to say he was this and that.. etc..
etc..
Ok.. but Bushka, owned a room, held tournaments with his partner and made cues.
The best cues.. He did what he could.. just because he didn't write a book at
the turn
of the century doesn't make him less deserving.
>Just like Kersenbrock was really well known in the midwest before word spread
to other
>parts of the country of his cues. His cues today are somewhat collectible,
>but if the next TCOM comes around and happens to bring up his name, you can
>bet that people will be bending over backwards to pick up his
>cues...including you.<<
I pick up Kersenbrocks now.. if they became fanfare because of a movie that
wouldn't change anything. Actually I owned one in 1985.
>Try finding a bunch of people from LA or SF during the 60s who thought that
Bushkas were
>THE cue to have.<<
Well lets see.. I may not make it to SF / LA but we can say Eddie Taylor,
Cisero Murphy, Balsis, Crane, Lassiter, Ronnie Allen.. these are all great
players that had Bushka's at one point or another. They are spread out from all
over the country.. sounds like maybe there was a little more to Georges cues
than you give them credit for. It stands to reason that even average players
could have had his cues and probably did.
>His status was that of a good regional cue maker until the movie.<<
You definately should stick to playing billiards and stay out of collectibility
and pool cue arguements.
>You don't have any because you can't get your hands on any.<<
I get them offered all the time.. but the fact is since Rambow made alot
of cues using existing Brunswick hardware, its tough to take a chance on
what could be just another hoppe cue. Also I get more for my money buying
other cues.
>When I see Bushkas for sale on line, they are usually there for a very long
time. I
>think the buying prices of Bushkas pinnacled long ago and people are not as
>crazy for them any more.<<
Actually the economy, and this is everywhere in pool, not just high end cues,
is why
sales are sluggish. Its not just Bushkas. But the problem is there are still
very few people
with that kind of money interested in pool. Shit give me 50k and see if I buy a
Bushka or
a Vette. (personal use.. not resale)
> In fact, there are probably more Bushkas available today than eight years
ago.<<
Yep.. more Botis to.. alot of people are trying to get the cash now. There are
no
more stock piling collectors, or at least not that many.
>In fact, he cranked out all the cues for the Hustler. Isn't that
>poetic justice? The cue that Fast Eddie was really playing with back then
>was a Rambow...not your beloved Bushka.<<
1961 Rambow was more famous and Bushka was in his infancy. Amazing how
Rambow wasn't used as the "cue" in TCOM.. think maybe it was because of GB's
already growing popularity? Of course you wouldn't think that.. 'cause you have
no clue.
But I would love to hear your explanation to this...
>> 2- He was known as that before TCOM.. which is _why_ they used his name.
>(a
>> fact you seem to forget...)
>
>Ahhh, BS<<
Its amazing Deno, that you seem to know more than many publications that
printed
that same statement. I mean really, they are all wrong and Deno is right.. you
think that highly of your knowledge? I must say being the world class 3 cushion
player, making cues, thinking you can beat Pat with mediocre pool skills.. damn
Deno.. I cannot believe how this group just doesn't bow down to your
greatness.. I mean shit.. we should call this Rec.sport.billiards.denosworld
As far as pricing Balabushkas.. you want a Rembrandt, or Stradivarius.. you buy
one.
You want a Rolex, or do you want a Timex? You want a Pierce Arrow...
Bottom line is Balabushka is to cues as Van Gogh is to painting.
Do I expect to sell a 75,000 dollar Bushka? Maybe not today, tomorrow or next
year.
But realize we have some of the only examples that are currently, publically
listed in the market place. Not only the examples.. but the best examples.
TCOM or no TCOM they would still be sought after in the pool industry. The only
difference would be by how much.
Joe
Deno J. Andrews
article, so I am only going to put in a few lines that are relevant to this
discussion. I can email you the whole document if you are interested:
Forbes. Ewing, Terzah. 01/17/94
"Priceless cues: starring Paul Newman, Tom Cruise and George Balabushka.
IN THE 1986 film The Color of Money, a young pool hustler played by Tom
Cruise brags about the fancy pool cue given to him by his mentor, portrayed
by Paul Newman.
One of the buddies shoots back: "Eddie Felson gave you a Balabushka? ... You
know what that's worth?... It's gotta be a collector's item by now."
That's all the collectibles-crazed Japanese had to hear. For nearly four
years after the film came out, wealthy Japanese buyers appeared at
tournaments, equipment exhibitions and pool halls, slapping down thousands
of dollars for handmade custom cues. They paid tens of thousands for sticks
created by legendary makers George Balabushka and Gus Szamboti. "Back then
it was not uncommon to get $40,000 for a rare cue," recalls John Wright, a
cue broker case in the Chicago suburb of Palatine.
Around 1990 Japanese ardor for cues sank with the Nikkei index, causing
prices to sag but not nose-dive. For a whole new generation now knew of the
rarity and quality of Balabushkas and Szambotis.
Serious pool players have always prized a good custom cue. Marie Antoinette
reputedly owned a solid ivory queue de billard. But until Balabushka came
along, most cues were either plain and practical or pretty but useless.
Balabushka perfected what had been started by Herman J. Rambow, who was
known as the first of the prized custom cue makers and the father of modern
billiard technology. But Rambow's cues, of which few survive, were not at
all fancy."
Well, I think it is rare to get $14,000 for a Bushka these days. What
are you impressions of this article Joe? I mean, if Forbes picked up on the
rush after the movie, do you still think it is myth? I agree with the
article on just about all points. The Bushkas are rare. They are of
quality. And most of all, it reinforces the fact that the movie informed a
generation of a cue maker's name that would be just another old cue maker to
those same people had it not been for TCOM.
Deno J. Andrews
Ron Shepard
<7007-3FE...@storefull-2315.public.lawson.webtv.net>,
Smorga...@webtv.net (Smorgass Bored) wrote:
> (*<~ I'm picturing some players in a tuxedo (with tails):
> Nick Varner
> Buddy Hall
> Howard Vickery
> Shannon Daulton
I think I've seen all of these players play either in tournaments or
on TV with tuxedo dress codes. You could add in Grady Mathews,
Dallas West, Mike Massey, and dozens of other professional players.
BTW, most (all?) remove the coat and play in just the vest or
cumberbun.
I have always thought that players looked...what is the word I'm
looking for...legitimate?, respectful?, serious?, when they play in
tuxedos. However, there are problems -- namely the tie is tight at
the throat and the shoes are slick on the carpet. I think they
should at least allow rubber soled shoes in the dress code. On the
other hand, I don't think that the tuxedo dress code is either
necessary or sufficient for the future success of professional pool.
$.02 -Ron Shepard
Deno J. Andrews
> Look Daly wrote a book.. thats it. You want to say he was this and that..
etc..
> etc..
Joe, you are out to lunch dude! You obviously haven't a clue about Daly.
Maybe you ought to read up a little before you make a bigger fool of
yourself. Do you have any idea who Daly taught and coached? Do you have any
idea how instrumental Daly was in organizing international competition
(before you could hop on a plane). You are obviously clueless to put the
accomplishments of Bushka even in the same category as Daly.
> Ok.. but Bushka, owned a room, held tournaments with his partner and made
cues.
> The best cues.. He did what he could.. just because he didn't write a book
at
> the turn
> of the century doesn't make him less deserving.
You are right, when it comes to "fame," he should be in the H.O.FAME because
his cues became famous after the movie.
> I pick up Kersenbrocks now.. if they became fanfare because of a movie
that
> wouldn't change anything. Actually I owned one in 1985.
You are full of crap! If the sequel came out and mentioned Kersenbrock in
the same context as they said Balabushka then, you would be buying them up
like a pig. It would change a lot...A LOT.
> Well lets see.. I may not make it to SF / LA but we can say Eddie Taylor,
> Cisero Murphy, Balsis, Crane, Lassiter, Ronnie Allen.. these are all great
> players that had Bushka's at one point or another. They are spread out
from all
> over the country.. sounds like maybe there was a little more to Georges
cues
> than you give them credit for. It stands to reason that even average
players
> could have had his cues and probably did.
Six players? In fact, it is difficult to come up with a larger pool of well
known players of the day. That is sort of also fitting to my argument that
there were very few great serious players. So you can name six players, big
deal.
> You definately should stick to playing billiards and stay out of
collectibility
> and pool cue arguements.
You should stick to selling your Bushkas. It is obvious you have a stake in
your beloved Bushkas that have been sitting on the shelf collecting dust.
Are your prices going to double once he is inducted, or will you finally be
able to get what you ask for them?
> I get them offered all the time.. but the fact is since Rambow made alot
> of cues using existing Brunswick hardware, its tough to take a chance on
> what could be just another hoppe cue. Also I get more for my money buying
> other cues.
Because Rambow owners know what they have and demand more for the cues so
there is no margin for you to work up. If your own argument is true, than
you have some pretty good margin on the Bushkas you stock. If that is the
case, what does that say about the true collectibility of those cues? Fact
is you can have a Bushka now for about half of what you could buy one for
nearly ten years ago...and they are out there for sale.
> Actually the economy, and this is everywhere in pool, not just high end
cues,
> is why
> sales are sluggish. Its not just Bushkas. But the problem is there are
still
> very few people
> with that kind of money interested in pool. Shit give me 50k and see if I
buy a
> Bushka or
> a Vette. (personal use.. not resale)
Again, not as collectible as you have thought them to be. There are plenty
of people with money interested in pool. But they would rather buy a
$10,000 Cognoscenti because it is more collectible, fancier, and with more
precious metals and rarities on it than even the most intricate Bushka. One
could easily make the argument that Cognos are more collectible than
Bushkas. I mean, there are more of them, and many of them sell for prices
similar and higher to the prices of Bushkas being unloaded today. And if
there are more of them and they are still in production, it means there
should be less demand.
> >> 2- He was known as that before TCOM.. which is _why_ they used his
name.
Why don't you tell the real reason they used his name?
> Its amazing Deno, that you seem to know more than many publications that
> printed
> that same statement. I mean really, they are all wrong and Deno is right..
you
> think that highly of your knowledge? I must say being the world class 3
cushion
> player, making cues, thinking you can beat Pat with mediocre pool skills..
damn
> Deno.. I cannot believe how this group just doesn't bow down to your
> greatness.. I mean shit.. we should call this
Rec.sport.billiards.denosworld
ouch, that hurts Joe, snif snif. First of all, cue dealers are typically
the last people in the industry you can trust to be establishing true value.
And I don't care one bit what you think of my knowledge or opinions.
Basically, what I have seen from you are self serving half truths, that, no
matter what you think, will not increase the chances of your selling the
three Bushkas you have been trying to unload...especially since you have
ripped the value from two of them by having them refinished. What is even
more amusing is that somehow you think a match I had with Pat Johnson is in
any way relevant to this conversation. And yes, mediocre pool skills would
have been enough to beat Pat that day. I didn't have them that day, oh
well, I lost. But I bet you have never lost a match, right? So why not
pull up your panties and stick to the facts:
1. you have several Bushkas to sell
2. You can't get jack for them because their "value" is becoming mature
after the price fell out from under them after the TCOM buying craze ended.
3. Bushka is far more famous than any other cue maker for the simple reason
that his name was mentioned in TCOM.
4. Burton Spain did as much work on many Bushkas as Balabushka himself did.
> You want a Rolex, or do you want a Timex?
You would think a Rolex is the nuts when it comes to watches wouldn't you.
Rolex couldn't give the six out to a good Swiss watch...but that's another
thread.
> Bottom line is Balabushka is to cues as Van Gogh is to painting.
If that were true, it would mean the Vincent would have started his work
about three quarters of the way into an existing painting that was already a
masterpiece. He would put the finishing touches on another man's work and
sell it as his own creation. And, if your statement was true, it would mean
that his cues would sell for hundreds of thousands of dollars MORE than any
contemporary piece on the market today. But the truth is that there are
probably over ten cue makers today getting more for their current cues than
the average selling price of Bushkas in the last ten years. Furthermore, it
would mean that Balabushka would have only sold one cue stick in his life,
having never been beneficiary to his own work. It would mean that
Balabushkas would be hanging in museums world wide. Do you even know why
Van Gogh is considered such a prolific artist, or did you just use his name
because someone told you he was a great artist?
> Do I expect to sell a 75,000 dollar Bushka? Maybe not today, tomorrow or
next
> year.
> But realize we have some of the only examples that are currently,
publically
> listed in the market place. Not only the examples.. but the best examples.
The best examples? You have ruined two of the three cues by having them
refinsihed. There is no better way to distract real collectors in the long
run than to have an original refinsihed. BAsically, you have frozen the
potential of those cues from becoming true collectors pieces. I would
hardly call them the best examples. In fact, after seeing that you had
those cues refinished, I have doubts about your ability to really determine
what makes a cue or an antique for that matter, valuable. You do have one
really nice example though- please don't have it refinished. And I remember
fifteen years ago you could have sold it for twice what you are asking for
it now; who knows what it will really sell for though.
Deno J. Andrews
Deno J. Andrews
news:ron-shepard-228E...@comcast.ash.giganews.com...
> However, there are problems -- namely the tie is tight at
> the throat and the shoes are slick on the carpet.
Ron, this is only true if it is a cheap rent a shirt and strap on bow
tie...and if the shoes are those cheapo rent a shoe. Even if the player
must rent the tuxedo, any serious player should have a couple of good white
dress shirts, and good dress shoes...and of course, a silk hand tied bow
tie. The secret is buying a shirt that is about a half inch larger than the
actual neck size. Most men buy shirts and a year later they can't button
the top button. Most men think that the neck has gotten bigger, when really
it is the shirt that has shrunk from the cleanings. And any serious player
that hasn't a pair of Mephisto black dress shoes is out to lunch. They are
as comfy as any tennis shoe or sneaker I have ever worn. And they look
nice.
> I think they
> should at least allow rubber soled shoes in the dress code.
And rubber pants so they don't have an excuse to go to the bathroom so many
times :)
> On the
> other hand, I don't think that the tuxedo dress code is either
> necessary or sufficient for the future success of professional pool.
I agree. Since the game hardly ever leaves the pool room, why dress up.
Deno
JAM
This is a very informative thread.
At last year's Derby City Classic, a gentleman paid $12,000 in cash for a
Bushka from a vendor of fine cues.
KM said most of the cues he saw on the set of TCOM were McDermotts.
KM used to have a Fury cue stick that was given to him after he butchered his
Schon trying to find the infamous forward balance.
He kind of liked the Fury because it was a light cue stick and it worked well
with the red-dot cue-ball used at most venues.
KM always gets queried, "What kind of stick do you use?" Three or four guys we
run into from time to time, after learning KM was shooting with a Fury, went
out and bought one. They liked the fact that was affordable and it must be
good because, after all, KM is shooting with one.
Unfortunately for the Fury cue stick, KM left it in a car in Las Vegas in
117-degree heat, and it warped.
Leagues, APA, and bar-box folks are where the REAL money is in this sport,
though, and most of the players in these venues can't afford custom-made cue
sticks and would never shell out the big bucks for such an item. This market
is very lucrative for production cue-makers such as Fury, Falcon, Cuetec,
Viking.
The reason why Valley Forge is a complete success every single year isn't
because of the pro players. It's the bar bangers.
KM had a Bushka before TCOM, and he absolutely adored it. It was stolen from
him. He said today the cue would be worth $25,000.
JAM
JAM
that hasn't a pair of Mephisto black dress shoes is out to lunch."
Of all shoes you mention, Mephistos!
Last year, Jose Parica was staying at my house to attend a couple of tourneys.
He was frantic because he left his shoes in Virginia Beach by accident and had
no non-sneaker shoe to wear. Most tournaments won't let you wear sneakers.
I asked him what size he wears and let him try on my pair of black leather
Mephistos. Well, the fit like a glove, and he LOVED them.
To this day, Jose is still wearing those Mephistos. Jimmy Fusco wears
Mephistos. I bought KM a pair of Mephistos which, as you know, cost in the
range of $325. He hates them. Go figure.
JAM
Roger Orsulak
Balabushka has far more name recognition among TCPITS than he would have
without TCOM. However, his contributions were recognized, and his cues were
collectible LONG before the movie ever hit the streets. This is because
most of the top players of the time were playing with his cues. Why?
Because they felt that it helped them play better. I first learned of him
in 1971 after being soundly beaten by a very good local player. He let me
shoot a couple of shots with his cue and I had never felt anything like it.
It felt like magic. George's name was well know among people that played in
pool rooms at that time. He didn't need no stinkin' movie. His cues were
collectibly expensive long before TCOM.
The people that TCOM exposed Balabushka to are easily recognizable. They're
the ones in the pool room baton twirling their cues a la Vincent. These are
the same people who know who Minnesota Fats was, but have no clue to Phelan,
Mosconi, Greenleaf, Ponzi, Hoppe, Schaefer (Sr AND Jr), Daly etc. In this
case, the movie DID make Fats, along with his talent for braggadocio.
In short, TCOM did not "make" Balabushka. Balabushka was chosen for the
movie because the name promoted authenticity. IMO
I think we've both mad our positions clear. Back to you Deno for the final
words.
Regards,
Roger
"Deno J. Andrews" <denoa...@sbcglobal.net> wrote in message
news:_MpFb.1774$2C7...@newssvr22.news.prodigy.com...
Roger Orsulak
"Deno J. Andrews" <denoa...@sbcglobal.net> wrote in message
news:QRuFb.39$Y7.17...@newssvr30.news.prodigy.com...
Deno J. Andrews
Deno
"JAM" <jama...@aol.comnojunk> wrote in message
news:20031222080841...@mb-m03.aol.com...
Deno J. Andrews
> No Deno, I don't see it differently than before. There's no question that
> Balabushka has far more name recognition among TCPITS than he would have
> without TCOM. However, his contributions were recognized,
Collectible by whom? Ask yourself how big the market was back then. What
you say is tue with regard to those in the industry who would want to
collect a cue stick. And back then, his cues may have been desirable from a
player's perspective- that is far different than being collected. Before
the movie, you could pick up a Bushka pretty easily. After the movie, the
cue prices skyrocketed. After the movie, the number of people who collected
cues skyrocketed. Same supply as before, but demand skyrocketed.
> and his cues were
> collectible LONG before the movie ever hit the streets. This is because
> most of the top players of the time were playing with his cues.
Same point as before- there was not nearly the demand for his cues as there
is today. And he was still in business making cues, so while there may have
been a nice demand from "players," that demand was being filled still. But
again, players wanting a playing cue is far different than buying a
collector's cue. Today, how many are buying his cues for playing cues?
That is the difference.
> The people that TCOM exposed Balabushka to are easily recognizable.
Yes, they are the ones not complaining about the price of coffee! Also the
ones who have money to "collect" cues.
> In short, TCOM did not "make" Balabushka. Balabushka was chosen for the
> movie because the name promoted authenticity. IMO
I don't think this is true.
Deno J. Andrews
Deno J. Andrews
Deno
"Roger Orsulak" <noma...@worldnet.att.net> wrote in message
news:OmCFb.511559$0v4.21...@bgtnsc04-news.ops.worldnet.att.net...
JoeyA
crime. Come up with another marketing plan, please. Maybe have some fake
bills (not u.s.currency) with Keith's picture on them in $1,000,000.00 bills
with his movie slogan on the bills. JAM could have her signature on the
bills as the Treasurer. Maybe those would sell....and they wouldn't cost a
dollar each.
JoeyA
"Smorgass Bored" <Smorga...@webtv.net> wrote in message
news:29196-3FE...@storefull-2317.public.lawson.webtv.net...
> JAM offered up:
> When I attend tournaments with KM, the thing he is most recognized for
> today is that "nightmare" line. Most folks do not know of his level of
> play when he was The California Kid or Keither with the Ether.
>
> (*<~ The California Kid ? I thought Jerry Bento was The California
> Kid. You mean, Jerry stole that name from Keith ?
> ( OY-VEY ! )
>
>
> Of the three folks the BCA has selected, Allen Hopkins, Ewa, and Earl,
> I'd like to see Allen get it. At tournaments when he's a player and not
> a promoter, he goes out of his way to schmooze with folks, and he's very
> approachable.
> JAM
>
> (*<~ I'll say he's approachable and popular. I was sweatin him
> playing some one-pocket at the Sports Palace in New Orleans in the early
> 80s and got him to autograph a one dollar bill. When I moved to Tampa in
> 1987, I sold that dollar for FIVE DOLLARS. Now, how did the buyer know
> if it was even Allen's 'REAL' autograph ?
>
>
>
> wish I had a wheelbarrow full of autographed 'ones'... imo
> (I'll give Keith fifty cents for every dollar of his that he autographs
> for ME)
> Doug
>
>
> Seriously, Keith should get some uncirculated one's (think TCOM) and
> sign them with his famous line & autograph and 'part with them' for FIVE
> DOLLARS each..
Joe Van
same category as Daly.<<
Even without the movie more people would know who Bushka is than who Daly is.
This is a fact you choose to ignore. If Daly was so great, why is this the
case?
You avoid this like the plague. I am not putting the two in the same category,
they both did their thing for pool. I bet if Daly was alive in 1968 he would
have been
using a Bushka. :)
>You are right, when it comes to "fame," he should be in the H.O.FAME because
>his cues became famous after the movie.<<
You're a nit. His cues were famous before the movie and because you didn't hear
of
one before the movie doesn't mean a thing. Judging by what you are saying I
think
you didn't see a table with pockets till you were 12.
>You are full of crap! If the sequel came out and mentioned Kersenbrock in
>the same context as they said Balabushka then, you would be buying them up
>like a pig. It would change a lot...A LOT.<<
This shows how little you know about cues. Kersh's are very collectible right
now.
I buy them when I can, and thats that. Regardless of what you may think, or
think you know. He mentions Balabushka ONCE in the movie. You act like the
freaking movie was centered around the cue. Get a life. Are you that jealous
there
has never been a three cushion movie of note?
>Six players? In fact, it is difficult to come up with a larger pool of well
>known players of the day. That is sort of also fitting to my argument that
>there were very few great serious players. So you can name six players, big
>deal.<<
Big deal? The fact is Bushka's were rampant at the Johnson City tournaments.
The fact is it was THE CUE long before the movie. I named 6 names that weren't
in the immediate vincinity of Bushka. This doesn't count the Fusco's, Hopkins,
Mizerak and on and on.
>It is obvious you have a stake in your beloved Bushkas that have been sitting
on the shelf collecting dust. Are your prices going to double once he is
inducted, or will you finally be
able to get what you ask for them?<
Stake or no stake.. he has as much a right to be in the HOF as anyone you can
think of.
As far as doubling? Yeah like Rambow's did.. get a clue.
>Because Rambow owners know what they have and demand more for the cues so
>there is no margin for you to work up.<<
Get your head out of your ass. A Bushka just sold for 29k recently in a pool
hall transaction.
No Rambow will ever bring that much with the exception.. of Mosconi's. Rambow's
are what
they are.
>If your own argument is true, than you have some pretty good margin on the
Bushkas you stock.<<
Being most of them were purchased BEFORE the boom, that could be the case.
>>If that is the case, what does that say about the true collectibility of
those cues? Factis you can have a Bushka now for about half of what you could
buy one for nearly ten years ago...and they are out there for sale.<<
Entirely not true.. its one of the only cues that has increased contantly in
value. Why? Because there are so few. 8-10 years ago they would be at half of
what we have them listed for. Its amazing how little you actually know.
> But they would rather buy a $10,000 Cognoscenti because it is more
collectible, fancier, and with more precious metals and rarities on it than
even the most intricate Bushka. <<
Get a clue.. 10 grand for a cue by a cuemaker that has maybe 10 cnc patterns in
his arsenal of "inlays". Here is an instance where you are buying something for
the materials alone. Of course he is using materials not even thought of in
Bushkas day. You are not
comparing apples to apples.
>One could easily make the argument that Cognos are more collectible than
>Bushkas. <<
And they would be laughed at just like there are many people laughing right now
at that ludicrous statement.
>The best examples? You have ruined two of the three cues by having them
>refinsihed. <<
Actually refinishing a cue is no different than restoring a painting. There
comes
a time when the refinish enhances the value of the cue vs. one that is not
refinished. Had the refinished, been original the prices maybe tripled.
> There is no better way to distract real collectors in the long
>run than to have an original refinsihed. BAsically, you have frozen the
>potential of those cues from becoming true collectors pieces.<<
This is as whack a statement as I have ever read. Its a good thing you
are who you are. This is why there are grades to collecting. The bottom line
is if you had a ratty original it would be worth less than a refinished
pristine
piece. This is a fact.. why? Its an astethic thing. Who wants to show a cue
that looks like its been to hell and back when you can show something that
looks good. Not all pieces should be refinished, but some need to be.
>>I would hardly call them the best examples. In fact, after seeing that you
had
>those cues refinished, I have doubts about your ability to really determine
>what makes a cue or an antique for that matter, valuable<<
Really? Oh I see and you have dealt these? How many? When? oh ok. That
makes you a legitimate source? Or does this play into the Deno knows all
arguement? Like I said.. go pump up your 3c billiards.. let the pocket
billiards
alone.
>>And I remember fifteen years ago you could have sold it for twice what you
are asking for
>it now; who knows what it will really sell for though.<<
Again see above.. Fact is the most expensive GB on the rumor mill that long ago
was one
owned by Mizerak.. it only sold for 38 or so depending on who you talk to. So
again.. please stay out of things you don't know. Or if you are going to use
them as an example at least have a clue.
Joe
Joe Van
>are you impressions of this article Joe? <<
Well since its been a long time since the article was written things have
happened. A new "collector" took the market by storm and advanced
cue buying by some 100x. Fact is there have been some recent transactions
that boggle the mind. Recently cues have sold for 250k or more, and some have
offered over 300k for a certain cue. But one new guy doesn't make up for the
many that liquidated.
>The Bushkas are rare. They are of quality. And most of all, it reinforces
the fact that the movie informed a generation of a cue maker's name that would
be just another old cue maker to those same people had it not been for TCOM.<<
Again the article is old, and not current with the situation. Now in the
article it
says along with a market dive.. this is the case and still the case. When the
internet stock boom hit, the prices shot up again, and now with the recession
they
dropped. This is the only accurate statement of what you posted that holds
true.
Roger Orsulak
regards,
Roger
"Deno J. Andrews" <denoa...@sbcglobal.net> wrote in message
news:4ICFb.460$ev1...@newssvr24.news.prodigy.com...
Bob Johnson
--
Bob Johnson, Denver, Co.
bo...@cris.com
> "Roger Orsulak" <noma...@worldnet.att.net> wrote in message
>
Smorgass Bored
Tampa-Tubby, please restrain yourself. De-facing U.S. Currency is a
federal crime. Come up with another marketing plan, please.
(*<~ De-facing money ? What do you think I'M doing to it, when I put
a wad in my back pocket and then sit on it all day (and night) ?
I smell Joey offering KM some 'facsimile' money from Office
Specialties (don't forget MY cut)... imo
Doug "The Idea Man" Wiley
JAM
Office Specialties (don't forget MY cut)... imo."
Not a bad idea, I must say. Maybe have different denominations, Grady's face
on one, Keith, Howard, Mike Sigel, Jimmy Mataya, Paul Newman, Tom Cruise,
Martin Scorsese, Mary Elizabeth Mastratonio, and make them a limited edition;
collectibles, if you will.
I can remember going to Freestate Racktrack every Wednesday when they were
offering coffee mugs of Derby winners. I wanted to go every Wednesday until I
could collect a complete set.
I kind of like those bobbing head dolls.
JAM
Bob Johnson
(In fact, I could see Gleason someday being a special H of F induction of
some kind).
--
Bob Johnson, Denver, Co.
bo...@cris.com
"JAM" <jama...@aol.comnojunk> wrote in message
news:20031222115947...@mb-m03.aol.com...
JAM
kind)."
You've touched my heart with mentioning Jackie Gleason. I've been Jackie
Gleason fan for a long time.
Here's a guy who went from rags to riches, and he happened to be a good player.
I agree. He should be on the largest denomination.
JAM
JoeyA
at the drop of a fake dollar bill.
JOeyAnews:705-3FE7...@storefull-2312.public.lawson.webtv.net...
JAM
Attention Deficit Syndrome? What is an ADS?
JAM
JoeyA
get any cash up front from John Barton's old company?
JoeyA
"JAM" <jama...@aol.comnojunk> wrote in message
news:20031222121002...@mb-m03.aol.com...
Donald Tees
> Joey A. warned:
> Tampa-Tubby, please restrain yourself. De-facing U.S. Currency is a
> federal crime. Come up with another marketing plan, please.
>
>
> (*<~ De-facing money ? What do you think I'M doing to it, when I put
> a wad in my back pocket and then sit on it all day (and night) ?
>
>
Up here, while defacing currency is a (minor) crime, printing your own
will get you into a lot more trouble than defacing stuff the government
printed.
Donald ;<)
Mike Page
jama...@aol.comnojunk (JAM) wrote:
Glad to see you're working on the acronym problem JAM. But I think in
this case ADS is the plural of AD which is an abbreviation for
advertisement.
Deno J. Andrews
> You're a nit.
Hey, from you it's a compliment- thanks!
> His cues were famous before the movie and because you didn't hear
> of one before the movie doesn't mean a thing. Judging by what you are
saying I
> think you didn't see a table with pockets till you were 12.
You have a very warped sense of fame dude. I will grant you that within
serious pool player cirlces of the time (which were very very very very
small at the time), his cues were very well known. Fame? If his cues were
truly famous (by human standards- not the standards of a small niche group
of serious pool players), he would have made far more than 1200 cues and
would have died famous and a multi-millionaire. Picasso was famous. In
fact, he was probably the only artist to actually see his own fame on a
global level. Picasso was famous, Balabushka was a small time cue maker who
made a nice product, that a very small number of people in this country
wanted, but mostly in the east. Joe, fame means that someone has
transcended the small population of those focused on any given sector.
Pavarotti is someone who is famous. Most people who have never been to an
opera still know that name. By your standards, you are probably famous...at
least in your own mind.
> This shows how little you know about cues. Kersh's are very collectible
right
> now.
Yes, of course they are, by a very small group of people. But again, when
talking about fame, the average joe walking down the street might know the
name Balabushka because of a movie. But Kersenbrock they think is a sandal
maker.
> I buy them when I can, and thats that. Regardless of what you may think,
or
> think you know. He mentions Balabushka ONCE in the movie. You act like
the
> freaking movie was centered around the cue.
How many times is the cue mentioned by name in the movie? You wouldn't want
to place a friendly wager on it would you? The movie established the
Balabushka as the most collectible and valuable cue in the world, to the
general population. Had it been another cue maker, whomever it would have
been would have also benefitted by the name recognition.
> Get a life. Are you that jealous
> there has never been a three cushion movie of note?
What? Are you really that ignorant? must be...
> Big deal? The fact is Bushka's were rampant at the Johnson City
tournaments.
> The fact is it was THE CUE long before the movie. I named 6 names that
weren't
> in the immediate vincinity of Bushka. This doesn't count the Fusco's,
Hopkins,
> Mizerak and on and on.
Ok, twenty? Forty? Sixty? Famous Joe? Boy, I would sure like to live in
your little world where you can be famous by having a few players play with
your cue.
> Stake or no stake.. he has as much a right to be in the HOF as anyone you
can
> think of.
I don't think I disagree with you. In fact, he is far more famous than
Rambow, thanks to TCOM.
> get a clue.
let's shop for one and split it then.
> Get your head out of your ass. A Bushka just sold for 29k recently in a
pool
> hall transaction.
Right.
> Entirely not true.. its one of the only cues that has increased contantly
in
> value. Why? Because there are so few. 8-10 years ago they would be at half
of
> what we have them listed for. Its amazing how little you actually know.
So Forbes is wrong too? How is it that ten years ago you couldn't find a
Bushka for under $10,000, and today they are somewhat buyable at that price?
Supply and demand? Well, the supply isn't up, so demand must be down.
> Get a clue.. 10 grand for a cue by a cuemaker that has maybe 10 cnc
patterns in
> his arsenal of "inlays". Here is an instance where you are buying
something for
> the materials alone.
That's a load. Even in the most intricate designs of ivory inlaid
cues...the materials will barely reach $1000.
Of course he is using materials not even thought of in
> Bushkas day. You are not
> comparing apples to apples.
Ivory, gold, silver? Not even thought of in Bushkas day? keep tokin' on it
dude.
> Actually refinishing a cue is no different than restoring a painting.
Did you hear that on Antiques Road Show? Restoring a painting reveals the
artist's work because the varnished oxidize and darken, and hide the
painting. In cue making, the finish is part of the "painting." and I have
never seen a cue finish darken to hide points or anything. Refinishing an
antique cue ruins the value, and any serious collector who didn't have his
head in his butt would run like hell from a refinished cue that was not
refinished by the original cue maker. I imagine you think that your
argument holds as well for refinishing Stradivarius violins? God, I hope
you never get your paws on one of those to refinish.
> There comes
> a time when the refinish enhances the value of the cue vs. one that is not
> refinished.
True, when you have a sucker for a buyer.
> This is as whack a statement as I have ever read. Its a good thing you
> are who you are. This is why there are grades to collecting. The bottom
line
> is if you had a ratty original it would be worth less than a refinished
> pristine
My statement is whack because you are in the business of selling cues, many
of which have been refinished. I would never ever consider buying a cue
that was refinished by anyone but the original cue maker. The only
exception to the rule is that if the owner of the cue happened to be more
famous and was the one who had the work done...or if a more famous cue maker
did the actual refinishing. In both cases, it is no longer the cue stick
per se that is the real collectible. If the provenance was lost on a cue
like that but serious collectors of serious things (not pool players and
most pool cues) knew it had been refinished, you can forget about fetching
collecible prices unless the buyer is really, truly, an idiot.
> piece. This is a fact.. why? Its an astethic thing. Who wants to show a
cue
> that looks like its been to hell and back when you can show something that
> looks good.
This is a red flag for any serious collector. I really hope that people
will consider what you just said before pouring tens of thousands into one
of your refinish jobs.
> Really? Oh I see and you have dealt these? How many? When? oh ok. That
> makes you a legitimate source? Or does this play into the Deno knows all
> arguement? Like I said.. go pump up your 3c billiards.. let the pocket
> billiards
> alone.
I am not a Bushka expert, and by the looks of it, neither are you. I own
more Rambows than you have ever bought and sold. Oh, and I didn't destroy
any of them by refinishing them.
> Again see above.. Fact is the most expensive GB on the rumor mill that
long ago
> was one
> owned by Mizerak.. it only sold for 38 or so depending on who you talk to.
So
> again.. please stay out of things you don't know. Or if you are going to
use
> them as an example at least have a clue.
Rumor mill? And you have the nuts to tell me to stay away from things I
don't know? You don't even know! That's some IGNANT thinkin' dude.
Deno J. Andrews
collector of fine things that have not been destroyed
Deno J. Andrews
> Well since its been a long time since the article was written things have
> happened. A new "collector" took the market by storm and advanced
> cue buying by some 100x.
A hundred times? Really? Do you have any evidence a sinlge buyer advanced
cue buying by 100x? What about the Bushkas he purchased?
> Fact is there have been some recent transactions
> that boggle the mind. Recently cues have sold for 250k or more, and some
have
> offered over 300k for a certain cue. But one new guy doesn't make up for
the
> many that liquidated.
Who is he and where are the records for these transactions? I would like to
see which cues have been purchased. Are these antique cues, or contemporary
cues?
Deno
Bob Johnson
I can see it now, even though he didn't make an appearance in TCOM. His
head cocked that certain way, with his patented smirk, a twinkle in his eye,
and a big carnation in the lapel. As far as I'm concerned, the U.S.
Treasury should put him on real money!
--
Bob Johnson, Denver, Co.
bo...@cris.com
"JAM" <jama...@aol.comnojunk> wrote in message
news:20031222121002...@mb-m03.aol.com...
ratchet
Bob Johnson wrote:
I agree w/ you JAM , Jackie Gleason ( from what I have heard ) was an
accomplished player in his own right , I recall ( vaguely ) an interview with
him
and he gives kudos to FATS for working with him ( and Newman ) on their
respective games and teaching them quite a bit for The Hustler .....wish I had
had a teacher like that !!
>>>> Ratchet <<<<
JAM
I think in this case ADS is the plural of AD which is an abbreviation for
advertisement."
JAM has Acronym Deficit Syndrome.
JAM (Advertisement abbreviated: ADs or AD's, depending on reference source)
JAM
player in his own right...."
Growing up as a rack boy in a NYC pool room, he got the passion at a young age.
I've got a great picture of Jackie Gleason and Arnold Palmer cutting up in
front of a crowd. Jackie is doing his and-away-we-go thing. The whole crowd
is laughing. It's a GREAT picture and really captures the moment.
I remember when 60 Minutes interviewed him, before he passed. Living life in
the fast lane caught up with him, but he definitely enjoyed life to its
fullest.
JAM
Joe Van
>made a nice product, that a very small number of people in this country
>wanted, but mostly in the east. Joe, fame means that someone has
>transcended the small population of those focused on any given sector.
>Pavarotti is someone who is famous. Most people who have never been to an
>opera still know that name.<<
Do you have any inkling to what you are talking about? We are talking about a
nomination into the BCA HOF.. thats B as in BIlliards.. Is Balabushka famous
in
the Billiards industry? Of course he is. Thats what this is about. Period. You
keep
twisting this into some kind of Balabushka is not worthy of a HOF inductee and
infact he is. The fact is its for Billiards achievement, not for world
achievement..
You keep blabbering about his fame coming from TCOM, when its pure horseshit.
"The best pool cues ever made were fashioned by the late George Balabushka of
Brooklyn, New York. Like any work of art produced by someone who has since
passed on, his cues have now become as valuable as some high priced
automobiles. Balabushka’s cues just cannot be duplicated; other cue makers
have tried, but their cues just do not feel the same."
This was said recently by someone who is already in the HOF.. it is the truth
and
the man made the cue of his day. I know thats hard for you to understand, but
thats
why he is getting nominated.. plain and simple.
>But again, when talking about fame, the average joe walking down the street
might know the
>name Balabushka because of a movie. But Kersenbrock they think is a sandal
>maker.<<
And??? are these people voting on Balabushka? No they aren't, and again the
same people
think Rambow fights bad guys and is a bad actor. In pool Balabushka is famous,
he was
before TCOM. The vote doesn't care how much he transended outside of pool If
that was
the case, Daly would be out the window.
>The movie established the Balabushka as the most collectible and valuable cue
in the world, to the general population. Had it been another cue maker,
whomever it would have been would have also benefitted by the name
recognition.<<
Would another cuemaker had benefitted? Sure but what authenticity would there
have been
in the movie? Say he had said a Kersehnbrock? So what.. DPK is alive and there
would have
been a slight bump in his sales, but you can get one. At the time you could
have gotten one even easier than now. The movie makers knew that Bushka was the
cue, deceased and it made the presentation of the cue from Eddie to Vincent
that much more special. Lets take this a step further, everyone knows that the
cue collecting movement that was started by this movie helped EVERYONE who
makes a good cue. Unfortunately it also helped some of the bad ones. Before
this movie I could have bought a Palmer for half of what happened because of
TCOM and Balabushka. But before the movie the cues were going for 4 and 5
thousand. This is an important note, since you claim that it was only the
movie. But in fact, all the movie did was introduce the cue more openly to the
public. The cue was already "the" cue in pool.
>Ok, twenty? Forty? Sixty? Famous Joe? Boy, I would sure like to live in
>your little world where you can be famous by having a few players play with
>your cue.<<
This is not my little world, its the world thats voting on the nomination of
the cuemaker.
It doesn't matter how many played with them, the fact is they did and they and
everyone
else at the time had to have one. Only a select few got to have them.
>I don't think I disagree with you. In fact, he is far more famous than
>Rambow, thanks to TCOM.<<
I know it pains you, but he was more famouse than Rambow BEFORE TCOM.
>> Get your head out of your ass. A Bushka just sold for 29k recently in a
>pool hall transaction.<<
>Right.
Yes, very much so. How much do you think one of your precious Rambows will go
for? Lets watch the one on ebay.. I like to see hearts break.. especially ones
that don't have a clue.
>How is it that ten years ago you couldn't find a
>Bushka for under $10,000, and today they are somewhat buyable at that price?
>Supply and demand? Well, the supply isn't up, so demand must be down.<<
Maybe where you are, but plain Bushkas always could be had for around the 4-5k
mark. Even at the height of cue collecting madness.
> In cue making, the finish is part of the "painting." and I have
>never seen a cue finish darken to hide points or anything. <<
Again, maybe your cue apprenticeship is not what you are trying to tell us.
Have you ever seen laquer so yellow that it drowns out a real wood tone, or
finish cracked so badly that a refinish is the only way to restore it to a
pristine
example?
>Refinishing an antique cue ruins the value, and any serious collector who
didn't have his
>head in his butt would run like hell from a refinished cue that was not
>refinished by the original cue maker. <<
This is a load of shit and not surprising coming from you. Would we all like
mint 100% unchalked originals? Sure but the fact is cues are built to be played
with and 99% of
them were. So a 63 vette, restored by anyone other than Chevrolet is junk? This
is
what you are saying in a nutshell. So a restored DaVinci is only valueable if
Leonardo did it himself? Nice try, but your ignorance is pitiful.
>>True, when you have a sucker for a buyer<<
Really? What about when the buyer wants the original, but cannot afford a
grade a cue, and the only thing in his price range is a grade c? Then he is
a sucker for buying it? Do you say the same thing when buying artwork?
>My statement is whack because you are in the business of selling cues, many
>of which have been refinished. I would never ever consider buying a cue
>that was refinished by anyone but the original cue maker.<<
Thats your perogative. Thats ok. The fact is those cues demand higher prices.
But don't
take some holier than thou attitude with refinished cues, because its bull shit
and most the
time the average cue collector would take a restored cue vs one that could have
a plethora of
issues. Its not a perfect world Deno and its a shame you think it is.
>This is a red flag for any serious collector. I really hope that people
>will consider what you just said before pouring tens of thousands into one
>of your refinish jobs.<<
I hope they read it to. Because unlike the crap you are saying, its true.
Sorry..
unlike painting and vases cues are/were made to be played with and sometimes
a restoration is in order when a cue no longer meets an astethically pleasing
value. I am shocked with all your cuemaking prowess you don't realize that.
>Rumor mill? And you have the nuts to tell me to stay away from things I
>don't know? You don't even know! <<
I say rumor mill because unlike you I don't want to make any claim I cannot
back up.
But all one has to do is look in the Billiard Encyclopedia to see that its
printed as such.
Infact I low balled it, it was 45000.00. Jeez sue me.
Joe
Bob Johnson
was Mosconi that worked with them, and that I believe received the kudos.
--
Bob Johnson, Denver, Co.
bo...@cris.com
"ratchet" <rat...@greenapple.com> wrote in message
news:3FE73E25...@greenapple.com...
JAM
being filmed. It was Mosconi that worked with them, and that I believe
received the kudos."
Wasn't Jackie playing Fats? And there was some beef between the real Minnesota
Fats and the author of "The Hustler," if I remember correctly.
JAM
ratchet
greats !!
>>>>Ratchet<<<<
Joe Van
>Do you have any evidence a sinlge buyer advanced
>cue buying by 100x? What about the Bushkas he purchased?<<
What about his purchases? We guarantee complete buyer secrecy.
But get your head out of your ass and check with a few people you know
and you will get an update. The fact is you quote a 10 year old article that
is obsolete and out of date.
>Who is he and where are the records for these transactions? I would like to
>see which cues have been purchased. Are these antique cues, or contemporary
>cues?<<
Again see above. His purchases will astound you. The fact is there has been
a flurry of activity, not only this one guy, and thats that.
Deno, you are out dated and you speak out of your ass. The fact is when it
comes
to pricing cues, valueing cues, (especially Bushkas and Boti's), etc.. you
can't
dance with me. In fact you aren't even invited to the prom.
Joe
Do yourself a favor and find out what Ernie turned down for his ivory handled
cue
from the 60's and you will see just how out of it you really are.
Vader93490
>Wasn't Jackie playing Fats? And there was some beef between the real
>Minnesota
>Fats and the author of "The Hustler," if I remember correctly.
>
>JAM
Gleason did not "play" Fats. Minnesota Fats was an entirely fictionalized
character at the time that "The Hustler" was written. Rudolph Wanderone took
the name "Minnesota Fats" for his own after the movie came out and was
successful. Before then, he was known as "New York Fats" if memory serves.
The beef between Walter Tevis (author of The Hustler and TCOM) and Wanderone
stemmed from the fact that Wanderone was going around making false statements
that the "Minnesota Fats" character was based on him. Tevis had said
repeatedly in interviews that the character "Minnesota Fats" wasn't based on
anyone, least of all Rudolph Wanderone.
Bob Johnson
Wanderone, aka New York Fatty, among others, wisely decided to take the MF
name, and run with it. Tevis maintained all the way to his grave that his
Fats was purely fictional.
You have to hand it to "Fats" Wanderone. He parlayed the MF persona into a
small fortune, a H of F induction, and really did contribute to the
popularity of the game over the years, much to Mr. Mosconi's chagrin. He
was a marketing genius, more along the lines of a P.T. Barnum than a pool
player.
--
Bob Johnson, Denver, Co.
bo...@cris.com
"JAM" <jama...@aol.comnojunk> wrote in message
news:20031222144757...@mb-m03.aol.com...
JAM
Fats. Rudolf Wanderone, a/k/a New York Fatty, among others, wisely decided to
take the MF name, and run with it."
Some claim old Rudolf had never even been to the State of Minnesota.
JAM
Mark0
Hustler. Mosconi was the consultant for it IIRC
Mark0
"ratchet" <rat...@greenapple.com> wrote in message
news:3FE73E25...@greenapple.com...
>
>
Mark0
Mark0 <--shoulda read a couple more posts before I posted mine....
"Bob Johnson" <bo...@cris.com> wrote in message
news:bs7h8l$6...@dispatch.concentric.net...
Mark0
Mark0 <--thinks you should sample pool players
PS You ever watch Leno's man in the street quizzes? I don't want any of
them on MY jury ;O)
"Deno J. Andrews" <denoa...@sbcglobal.net> wrote in message
news:DssFb.13$S26.9...@newssvr30.news.prodigy.com...
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Joe Van" <class...@aol.com>
> > Thats cause you know its true. Its also because you cannot play pool
> > with a book. Fact is Daly will only be known as an author, an obscure
one
> > at that. Further more, only really known in billiard circles. Where
> Balabushka
> > is synonomous with the two piece cue.
>
> Actually, Daly was more known as a coach/teacher/promoter, which is why
> people purchased his book. The book is what is left for the average joe
to
> see and read. But if you think that Daly was only an obscure author, you
> obviously don't know the history very well.
>
> > This is asinine and pure speculation. Balabushka's have been "the" pool
> cue
> > way before TCOM. They have been the most sought after cues for a long
> time.
> > More than Rambows, Martins, Brittners etc.. why? Because about every pro
> > had one.
>
> Sure they did, all twenty of them! Come on Joe, maybe in your little
world
> of pool players the word Balabushka is tossed around with deity
status...but
> make no mistake that that little world is, well, how can I put
it...LITTLE.
> Every pro. Big deal. Most people outside the pool clique believe
Minnesota
> Fats was the greatest player to ever play. And before TCOM, unless you
were
> a serious pool player who happened to want to know something about cues,
you
> had never heard of Balabushka. People outside the pool player world (the
> little one remember) hadn't a clue of what a Balabushka was, nor did they
> care. I find it hilarious that you basically deny that TCOM gave the
> Balabushka name to the public and made it synonimous with the two piece
cue.
> I notice on your web site that you have a few Bushkas for sale...and you
> have no Rambows, btw.
>
> > They hit good, and GB built a reputation long before TCOM.
>
> So did a bunch of other cue makers, what happened to them?
>
> > Ask yourself this, the cue that was in TCOM was a Joss, widely known,
> > has Joss become an out of reach collectible? Hell no.
>
> Because it is not widely known. Maybe it is in your world (that little
pool
> one from earlier). But if you ask a hundred people walking down the
street
> what the cue in TCOM was, the ones who will think they know will say
> Balabushka. That is because it is not widely known outside of your own
head
> and the world (know which one?) it lives in.
>
> > weight considerations. The cues may have had a small extension of the
> point
> > wood but in no means were full splice. Thus meaning the point wood went
> all the
> > way to the butt cap.
>
> I think you ought to go back and do more research.
>
> > Look the splicing was nice. But Bushkas played well not because of the
> splice.
> > They played well because of everything he put into the cue along with
the
> > spliced forearms.
>
> The cues played well. I hate to be the one to break it to you, but
> Balabushka was just another great cue maker. He was not a god, nor was he
> the greatest cue maker to ever live. A bunch of pool players thought of
his
> cues as great cues, and rightfully so because they were great cues.
> However, it was not until TCOM that his name became known as the cue de
tat
> to the public. I guarantee you before TCOM, you take a random sample of
> 1000 people walking in any downtown of any city and ask them what a
> Balabushka is, and far fewer (if any of course) would know compared to
now.
> So I will yield and say that yes, in the 60s-80s, a very small population
of
> pool players (probably only in the thousands) would have considered the
> Balabushka collectible. Maybe they would want it as a good playing cue
> stick...but collectible like for collectors...nobody had a clue. You
don't
> hear of any collectors who purchased their Balabushkas in the 60s because
> they were one day going to be worth big money. Instead, you hear only of
> players who bought them.
>
> Deno J. Andrews
>
>
>
Mark0
never heard of Daly until this post.
Mark0 <--willing to share my ignorance
"Joe Van" <class...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:20031221190437...@mb-m27.aol.com...
> >"Deno J. Andrews" denoa...@sbcglobal.net writes:
>
> >The point is that absolutely nobody outside a small number of players
knew
> >what the hell a Balabushka was. In fact, if you took all of the pool
> >players who played at the time, and I mean them all, including the
basement
> >players, still only a small number of people knew who he or it was. TCOM
> >did make Balabushka famous.
>
> Really?? I bet more of them knew who Bushka was over Daly.
>
> > I am not denying he turned out a nice product (there is one in my closet
with
> my Rambows), but his being well known would today be restricted to only a
small
> percentage of pool players who are in the know about cues of the 60s and
70s,
> had it not been for TCOM. Sure,
> >they are nice, but without the movie, he is just another good cue maker
of
> >the time that nobody would have ever heard of outside of a small number
of
> >serious players. <<
>
> TCOM bought pool into the boom it had and that in turn started the boom in
cue
> collecting.
> I guarantee that regardless of who's cue they mentioned, Bushka would have
been
> still
> the cue to have. Look they didn't say Szamboti and I bet that Bushka and
> Szamboti are 1 and 1a for collectability. So explain to me how a cue not
even
> mentioned in TCOM is so highly
> sought after, even moreso than a Rambow?
>
> > I bet that right now, you could take a pointed Viking of
> >15 years ago, pull it out of a fancy case and present it right, and tell
> >people who are not in the industry at a cocktail party it is your prized
> >posession and is a Balabushka pool cue...and there wouldn't be one person
> >there who would know it from the real thing.<<
>
> This is the most pool playerish thing that one could have said.. well if I
> asked a professional
> pool player who Maurice Daly was I would bet 1-100 might have a clue. But
no
> more than that.
>
> >THe only reason those sorts of people know the name is
> >because it was in a movie that made a big deal about the cue, and they
> >called it a Balabushka. Do you see this any differently?
>
> No, since no one would know, or does know, who Daly is.
>
> Joe
>
>
> www.pooltablemagic.net / www.classiccues.com