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Ball-in-hand fouls
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Howard Brazee
May 13, 2013, 12:24:48 PM5/13/13
to
Do I have to accept a ball-in-hand foul instead of playing the ball as
it lies in 8-ball?
Ron Shepard
May 13, 2013, 12:50:17 PM5/13/13
to
In article <9t42p89fglvi1jhio...@4ax.com>,
including its current position. So I'm not sure what you are asking.
Are you asking if you MUST pick up the ball and place it back? No,
I don't think that is required.
$.02 -Ron Shepard
Howard Brazee <how...@brazee.net> wrote:
> Do I have to accept a ball-in-hand foul instead of playing the ball as
> it lies in 8-ball?
When you have ball in hand, you can play the ball from anywhere,
> Do I have to accept a ball-in-hand foul instead of playing the ball as
> it lies in 8-ball?
including its current position. So I'm not sure what you are asking.
Are you asking if you MUST pick up the ball and place it back? No,
I don't think that is required.
$.02 -Ron Shepard
Mark0
May 13, 2013, 12:58:38 PM5/13/13
to
On May 13 2013 12:24 PM, Howard Brazee wrote:
> Do I have to accept a ball-in-hand foul instead of playing the ball as
> it lies in 8-ball?
Thanks for posting to the ghost-town.
> Do I have to accept a ball-in-hand foul instead of playing the ball as
> it lies in 8-ball?
If you're playing ball in hand rules, it is your choice as to whether
picking it up or playing it where it lies is preferable to you. IMO of
course. If Ron is around I'm sure he'll give us a more official verdict
(with the appropriate citations too).
--> Mark0 <--
Get: Secrets to a Perfect Pool Table Recovering Job
http://www.mccauleyweb.com/secrets.htm
$15 for RSB-ers
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Mark0
May 14, 2013, 9:53:56 AM5/14/13
to
On May 13 2013 5:45 PM, sittingduck wrote:
> Howard Brazee wrote:
>
> > Do I have to accept a ball-in-hand foul instead of playing the ball as
> > it lies in 8-ball?
>
> No.
Always been a man of few words, huh Sheldon? :) How's things on the Pac
Coast? Good to see the die hards still check in once in a while
> Howard Brazee wrote:
>
> > Do I have to accept a ball-in-hand foul instead of playing the ball as
> > it lies in 8-ball?
>
Always been a man of few words, huh Sheldon? :) How's things on the Pac
Coast? Good to see the die hards still check in once in a while
Message has been deleted
Howard Brazee
May 16, 2013, 2:18:25 PM5/16/13
to
I asked this after moving into senior living which has a pool table -
and people who have played 8 ball by various rules.
So I first checked the Internet, and found some rules I didn't know -
and some ambiguities that were not cleared up.
None of the guys I play with do call pocket until the end. And they
all play that if the break knocks balls in, the breaker chooses which
ball counted for him. I wonder if that is regional.
Where they disagree is in which ball-in-hand fouls allow the cue ball
to be placed anywhere. And in whether pocketing the other guy's
ball keeps the play.
--
Anybody who agrees with one side all of the time or disagrees with the
other side all of the time is equally guilty of letting others do
their thinking for them.
and people who have played 8 ball by various rules.
So I first checked the Internet, and found some rules I didn't know -
and some ambiguities that were not cleared up.
None of the guys I play with do call pocket until the end. And they
all play that if the break knocks balls in, the breaker chooses which
ball counted for him. I wonder if that is regional.
Where they disagree is in which ball-in-hand fouls allow the cue ball
to be placed anywhere. And in whether pocketing the other guy's
ball keeps the play.
--
Anybody who agrees with one side all of the time or disagrees with the
other side all of the time is equally guilty of letting others do
their thinking for them.
Message has been deleted
Howard Brazee
May 16, 2013, 2:58:57 PM5/16/13
to
On Thu, 16 May 2013 11:28:35 -0700, sittingduck
<du...@spamherelots.com> wrote:
>> None of the guys I play with do call pocket until the end. And they
>> all play that if the break knocks balls in, the breaker chooses which
>> ball counted for him. I wonder if that is regional.
>
>Call pocket is pretty universal now. I only see fairly inexperienced
<du...@spamherelots.com> wrote:
>> None of the guys I play with do call pocket until the end. And they
>> all play that if the break knocks balls in, the breaker chooses which
>> ball counted for him. I wonder if that is regional.
>
>players (who usually think they are quite skilled) playing call shot. It's
>just asking for hassles, IMO.
So if you call your ball to go into one pocket, but it goes into the
other - what's the call?
>
>Most people and rules, consider the table to be open after the break. No
>matter what goes in, no one owns either stripes or solids, until someone
>makes one on a normal (called) shot.
>
>> Where they disagree is in which ball-in-hand fouls allow the cue ball
>> to be placed anywhere. And in whether pocketing the other guy's
>> ball keeps the play.
>
>Ball in hand = ball in hand anywhere, every time, on any foul or scratch.
>> Where they disagree is in which ball-in-hand fouls allow the cue ball
>> to be placed anywhere. And in whether pocketing the other guy's
>> ball keeps the play.
>
>Pocketing your opponents ball is just fine, as long as you make a good hit
>on one of yours first. You continue your inning ONLY if you also pocket one
>of yours, and have called it, or shot it straight in. Obvious shots DO NOT
>need to be called, according to BCA rules.
I enjoyed playing snooker in college too long ago. 8 ball with this
rule makes snookering more important part of the strategy.
Thanks.
Message has been deleted
Howard Brazee
May 16, 2013, 7:36:39 PM5/16/13
to
On Thu, 16 May 2013 15:46:02 -0700, sittingduck
<du...@spamherelots.com> wrote:
>> So if you call your ball to go into one pocket, but it goes into the
>> other - what's the call?
>
>No call, just the end of your inning. The pocketed ball stays down, and your
<du...@spamherelots.com> wrote:
>> So if you call your ball to go into one pocket, but it goes into the
>> other - what's the call?
>
>opponent shoots from wherever the cue ball lies.
>
>Also, if you're playing ball in hand, you should be able to pocket a ball
>intentionally, and then make your opponent shoot. But you must call SAFE
>before you shoot, then the pocketed ball doesn't continue your inning.
Yeah, I found that in the rules (I hadn't seen that before).
Ron Shepard
May 17, 2013, 1:56:25 AM5/17/13
to
In article <abrap8tc5as5mh817...@4ax.com>,
of 8-ball (e.g. WPA, BCA). If you play APA-like rules, which it
sounds like you are, called slop-shot rules, then there are no
called safeties.
Also with APA rules, if you scratch on the break shot then the
incoming player has ball in hand in the kitchen, not anywhere on the
table. Other fouls have ball in hand anywhere on the table.
$.02 -Ron Shepard
Howard Brazee <how...@brazee.net> wrote:
> >Also, if you're playing ball in hand, you should be able to pocket a ball
> >intentionally, and then make your opponent shoot. But you must call SAFE
> >before you shoot, then the pocketed ball doesn't continue your inning.
>
> Yeah, I found that in the rules (I hadn't seen that before).
That is a called safety, and it applies only in call-shot versions
> >Also, if you're playing ball in hand, you should be able to pocket a ball
> >intentionally, and then make your opponent shoot. But you must call SAFE
> >before you shoot, then the pocketed ball doesn't continue your inning.
>
> Yeah, I found that in the rules (I hadn't seen that before).
of 8-ball (e.g. WPA, BCA). If you play APA-like rules, which it
sounds like you are, called slop-shot rules, then there are no
called safeties.
Also with APA rules, if you scratch on the break shot then the
incoming player has ball in hand in the kitchen, not anywhere on the
table. Other fouls have ball in hand anywhere on the table.
$.02 -Ron Shepard
Howard Brazee
May 17, 2013, 8:24:32 AM5/17/13
to
On Fri, 17 May 2013 00:56:25 -0500, Ron Shepard
<ron-s...@NOSPAM.comcast.net> wrote:
>That is a called safety, and it applies only in call-shot versions
>of 8-ball (e.g. WPA, BCA). If you play APA-like rules, which it
>sounds like you are, called slop-shot rules, then there are no
>called safeties.
>
>Also with APA rules, if you scratch on the break shot then the
>incoming player has ball in hand in the kitchen, not anywhere on the
>table. Other fouls have ball in hand anywhere on the table.
Ahh, that's what I'd like to see - the differences between official
<ron-s...@NOSPAM.comcast.net> wrote:
>That is a called safety, and it applies only in call-shot versions
>of 8-ball (e.g. WPA, BCA). If you play APA-like rules, which it
>sounds like you are, called slop-shot rules, then there are no
>called safeties.
>
>Also with APA rules, if you scratch on the break shot then the
>incoming player has ball in hand in the kitchen, not anywhere on the
>table. Other fouls have ball in hand anywhere on the table.
rules and most common APA type rules. It would be good to know
both.
Message has been deleted
Jack
May 18, 2013, 10:36:15 AM5/18/13
to
On 5/17/2013 8:24 AM, Howard Brazee wrote:
> On Fri, 17 May 2013 00:56:25 -0500, Ron Shepard
> <ron-s...@NOSPAM.comcast.net> wrote:
>
>> That is a called safety, and it applies only in call-shot versions
>> of 8-ball (e.g. WPA, BCA). If you play APA-like rules, which it
>> sounds like you are, called slop-shot rules, then there are no
>> called safeties.
In APA you are "supposed" to call your safeties but if you make a ball
> On Fri, 17 May 2013 00:56:25 -0500, Ron Shepard
> <ron-s...@NOSPAM.comcast.net> wrote:
>
>> That is a called safety, and it applies only in call-shot versions
>> of 8-ball (e.g. WPA, BCA). If you play APA-like rules, which it
>> sounds like you are, called slop-shot rules, then there are no
>> called safeties.
legally you keep shooting, unlike most other rule sets. You are
supposed to call them because the handicapped system is "supposed" to
take into account safeties. In other words APA 8 ball safety play is
exactly the same as safety play in 9 ball, except you are "supposed" to
call them. It is rare anyone calls them though, as all it can possibly
achieve is to raise your handicap. In all other rules, you call
safeties only when legally pocketing a ball so your turn will end,
instead of continuing shooting after making a shot.
>> Also with APA rules, if you scratch on the break shot then the
>> incoming player has ball in hand in the kitchen, not anywhere on the
>> table. Other fouls have ball in hand anywhere on the table.
> Ahh, that's what I'd like to see - the differences between official
> rules and most common APA type rules. It would be good to know
> both.
"official rules" because it is the largest league on earth and there is
more organized play using those rules than any others. Non-organized
play has about as many rules sets as people playing.
The WPA (World Pool Association) is as close as you will come to a
"standardized" rule set, but about no one plays strictly by those rules,
on the other hand about everyone plays with about 98% of those rules,
including the APA. There are only a few WPA rules that vary in other
rule sets, for example, making the 8 on the break is not a win in WPA,
but is in APA, (and most everywhere else) What happens after an illegal
break is different most everywhere, and it seems those rules change on a
whim, depending on exactly what happened. A bazaar rule the APA has is
you must "patch" the 8 ball pocket, which means unlike the rest of the
balls you not only must call the 8 ball pocket, you also must place a
marker of some sort by the pocket you are going to make it in. It's
probably the dumbest rule the APA has and where I live, it is totally
ignored except in official tournaments
If the APA had an ounce if sense, it would get rid of the patch rule,
have regular call pocket in 8 ball like most other rule sets, and adjust
the safety play to conform to WPA. The big one though is the dumb as
dirt patch rule, it's really lame and serves no purpose other than to
piss people off, exactly the opposite of what rules are supposed to be
doing.
The other rules don't matter much, but do not contribute at all to
"standardizing" the rules, which should be a lofty pursuit of any league
claiming to be getting amateurs into pool.
--
Jack
Add Life to your Days not Days to your Life.
http://jbstein.com
Ron Shepard
May 18, 2013, 1:38:24 PM5/18/13
to
In article <1a8cp8t3drgsokt7k...@4ax.com>,
http://www.wpa-pool.com/web/index.asp
Here are the APA rules:
http://www.poolplayers.com/8-9-ball-Rules.pdf
As I said above, the most significant different between the two is
that WPA is call shot and APA is slop shot (except for the 8-ball,
which requires physical marking of the designated pocket). Most of
the things related to called safeties are because of that. Other
differences include some foul penalties, penalties for illegal
breaks, and such. The APA rules are usually used in team events,
and there are also regulations about what your teammates can say and
do during a match, how the players from the team are selected,
handicap limits, and things like that.
Both rule sets change over time. When situations come up in the
national tournaments that aren't covered, or are ambiguous, then the
rules committees adds or changes the rules accordingly. For
example, in the APA rules, it used to be illegal for a coach
(someone advising the player) to place the cue ball in a ball in
hand situation, only the player could place the cue ball. Now it
appears it is legal for either to place the cue ball.
I play in an 8-ball league and here are our rules:
https://blogs.anl.gov/billiards/
We use the WPA/BCA general rules, but we use APA-like 8-ball rules
for the game itself. This is mostly for historical reasons. We use
our own handicap system. We vote every once in a while which 8-ball
rules to use, and the APA-like rules have always won out. In this
area, the other pool leagues use both sets of rules about equally,
and there are many players who belong to several leagues and play by
both sets of rules.
$.02 -Ron Shepard
Howard Brazee <how...@brazee.net> wrote:
> On Fri, 17 May 2013 00:56:25 -0500, Ron Shepard
> <ron-s...@NOSPAM.comcast.net> wrote:
>
> >That is a called safety, and it applies only in call-shot versions
> >of 8-ball (e.g. WPA, BCA). If you play APA-like rules, which it
> >sounds like you are, called slop-shot rules, then there are no
> >called safeties.
> >
> >Also with APA rules, if you scratch on the break shot then the
> >incoming player has ball in hand in the kitchen, not anywhere on the
> >table. Other fouls have ball in hand anywhere on the table.
>
>
> Ahh, that's what I'd like to see - the differences between official
> rules and most common APA type rules. It would be good to know
> both.
Here are the WPA (and BCA) rules:
> On Fri, 17 May 2013 00:56:25 -0500, Ron Shepard
> <ron-s...@NOSPAM.comcast.net> wrote:
>
> >That is a called safety, and it applies only in call-shot versions
> >of 8-ball (e.g. WPA, BCA). If you play APA-like rules, which it
> >sounds like you are, called slop-shot rules, then there are no
> >called safeties.
> >
> >Also with APA rules, if you scratch on the break shot then the
> >incoming player has ball in hand in the kitchen, not anywhere on the
> >table. Other fouls have ball in hand anywhere on the table.
>
>
> Ahh, that's what I'd like to see - the differences between official
> rules and most common APA type rules. It would be good to know
> both.
http://www.wpa-pool.com/web/index.asp
Here are the APA rules:
http://www.poolplayers.com/8-9-ball-Rules.pdf
As I said above, the most significant different between the two is
that WPA is call shot and APA is slop shot (except for the 8-ball,
which requires physical marking of the designated pocket). Most of
the things related to called safeties are because of that. Other
differences include some foul penalties, penalties for illegal
breaks, and such. The APA rules are usually used in team events,
and there are also regulations about what your teammates can say and
do during a match, how the players from the team are selected,
handicap limits, and things like that.
Both rule sets change over time. When situations come up in the
national tournaments that aren't covered, or are ambiguous, then the
rules committees adds or changes the rules accordingly. For
example, in the APA rules, it used to be illegal for a coach
(someone advising the player) to place the cue ball in a ball in
hand situation, only the player could place the cue ball. Now it
appears it is legal for either to place the cue ball.
I play in an 8-ball league and here are our rules:
https://blogs.anl.gov/billiards/
We use the WPA/BCA general rules, but we use APA-like 8-ball rules
for the game itself. This is mostly for historical reasons. We use
our own handicap system. We vote every once in a while which 8-ball
rules to use, and the APA-like rules have always won out. In this
area, the other pool leagues use both sets of rules about equally,
and there are many players who belong to several leagues and play by
both sets of rules.
$.02 -Ron Shepard
John Black
May 21, 2013, 11:17:18 AM5/21/13
to
In article <ron-shepard-345D...@news80.forteinc.com>, ron-
she...@NOSPAM.comcast.net says...
Also, with APA, you have to be stripes or solids if that is what you make on the break
(unless you make a mix). Pretty much wherever APA rules differ from BCA, BCA has the better
rule (IMO).
John Black
she...@NOSPAM.comcast.net says...
(unless you make a mix). Pretty much wherever APA rules differ from BCA, BCA has the better
rule (IMO).
John Black
John Black
May 21, 2013, 11:20:09 AM5/21/13
to
In article <XnsA1C37B0968872du...@nomail.afraid.org>, du...@spamherelots.com
says...
> The rules can change, too. BCA rules used to use the "kitchen" on scratches
> after the break, but did away with it a couple of years ago.
I was hoping this was true because just like non-break situations, its stupid to penalize the
player who has not scratched which can happen too often with the kitchen rule. But here are
the latest BCA 8 ball rules I can find and it still says behind the head string (section
3.3).
http://home.bca-pool.com/associations/7744/files/EightBall_January2008.pdf
John Black
says...
> The rules can change, too. BCA rules used to use the "kitchen" on scratches
> after the break, but did away with it a couple of years ago.
I was hoping this was true because just like non-break situations, its stupid to penalize the
player who has not scratched which can happen too often with the kitchen rule. But here are
the latest BCA 8 ball rules I can find and it still says behind the head string (section
3.3).
http://home.bca-pool.com/associations/7744/files/EightBall_January2008.pdf
John Black
Message has been deleted
John Black
May 21, 2013, 5:14:33 PM5/21/13
to
In article <XnsA1C77BACFC785du...@nomail.afraid.org>, du...@spamherelots.com
says...
>
> "8-Ball: The penalty for any foul on the break has changed from ball in
> hand in the kitchen to ball in hand. Rules 2.3.3(b), 2.3.4, 2.3.5, 2.4.2
> (a), and 2.4.3 have been changed and consolidated to reflect the change."
So it seems the BCA Pool League organization (BCAPL) is not really affiliated with BCA
(Billiard Congress of America). In fact, right on the home page for BCAPL, they have a
disclaimer: "The BCA Pool League is operated by CueSports International, LLC (CSI), not by
the Billiard Congress of America." The rules for BCA and BCAPL are different. I have no
idea how many differences there are (too lazy to compare in detail) but this is certainly
one.
I really think BCAPL should sync up with BCA if they want to use the name, otherwise its just
a recipie for confusion regarding what playing by "BCA rules" means.
John Black
says...
>
> John Black wrote:
>
> > In article <XnsA1C37B0968872du...@nomail.afraid.org>,
> > du...@spamherelots.com says...
> >> The rules can change, too. BCA rules used to use the "kitchen" on
> >> scratches after the break, but did away with it a couple of years ago.
> >
> > I was hoping this was true because just like non-break situations, its
> > stupid to penalize the player who has not scratched which can happen too
> > often with the kitchen rule. But here are the latest BCA 8 ball rules I
> > can find and it still says behind the head string (section 3.3).
>
>
> Starting June 1, 2010, the BCAPL announced this rule change:
> John Black wrote:
>
> > In article <XnsA1C37B0968872du...@nomail.afraid.org>,
> > du...@spamherelots.com says...
> >> The rules can change, too. BCA rules used to use the "kitchen" on
> >> scratches after the break, but did away with it a couple of years ago.
> >
> > I was hoping this was true because just like non-break situations, its
> > stupid to penalize the player who has not scratched which can happen too
> > often with the kitchen rule. But here are the latest BCA 8 ball rules I
> > can find and it still says behind the head string (section 3.3).
>
>
>
> "8-Ball: The penalty for any foul on the break has changed from ball in
> hand in the kitchen to ball in hand. Rules 2.3.3(b), 2.3.4, 2.3.5, 2.4.2
> (a), and 2.4.3 have been changed and consolidated to reflect the change."
So it seems the BCA Pool League organization (BCAPL) is not really affiliated with BCA
(Billiard Congress of America). In fact, right on the home page for BCAPL, they have a
disclaimer: "The BCA Pool League is operated by CueSports International, LLC (CSI), not by
the Billiard Congress of America." The rules for BCA and BCAPL are different. I have no
idea how many differences there are (too lazy to compare in detail) but this is certainly
one.
I really think BCAPL should sync up with BCA if they want to use the name, otherwise its just
a recipie for confusion regarding what playing by "BCA rules" means.
John Black
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