9 Ball Tournament Finals (controversy)
casey kilian
gets $700. The score is 1-1 and your opponent, who needs to beat you
two sets is shooting. The 4-7-8-9 are left on the table. He shoots the
4 in and plays position on the 8. shoots in the eight and then sees
the 7. Oncoming player takes ball in hand and runs 7 and 9 to win
tournament. Tells player he is sorry to win like that. Opponent then
comments that is what he expected of him anyway. When questioned he
says he does not want to discuss it, that if it were him shooting he
would have said you are shooting the wrong ball..this is from a player
who does not want you to say a word or move when he is shooting. The
two players in question know each other well. I owned both in the
calcutta so it made no difference to me who won. Who is right. I'm a
friend of both (I think ). Casey
Bob Johnson
the winner won it, but he lost nonetheless!
--
Bob Johnson, Denver, Colorado
Home of the 1997/1998 World Champion Denver Broncos
Home of the 1996/2001 Stanley Cup Champion Avalanche
bo...@cris.com
"casey kilian" <ckil...@cox.net> wrote in message
news:29f8b6a1.02051...@posting.google.com...
Smorgass Bored
9 Ball Tournament Finals (controversy)
casey kilian queried :
Tells player he is sorry to win like that. Opponent then comments that
is what he expected of him anyway.
(*<~ JOEY !
just guessing,
Doug
~>*(((>< Big fish eat Little fish ><)))*<~
Dick Moecia
>Subject: Re: 9 Ball Tournament Finals (controversy)
>From: Smorga...@webtv.net (Smorgass Bored)
>Date: 5/12/02 5:59 PM Eastern Daylight Time
>Message-id: <15846-3C...@storefull-2311.public.lawson.webtv.net>
>
>
>9 Ball Tournament Finals (controversy)
>casey=A0kilian queried :
>You are in the final match of 9 ball tournament (race to 2 ) winner gets
>$700. The score is 1-1.
>Tells player he is sorry to win like that. Opponent then comments that
>is what he expected of him anyway.
>Who is right. I'm a friend of both (I think ). Casey
>
> (*<~ JOEY !
>
>
> just guessing,
>
> Doug
> ~>*(((><)))*<~
>
> =
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
Dick Moecia
www.GCABA.com
Dixiedoc
cheese, then you hope he IS shooting at the wrong ball.
Doesn't sound like they were that good of friends, since the loser
wisecracked the winner. If I had won the tournament like that from a good
friend, and there was first-prize money only, I might be inclined to at
least pay him his entry fee back.
It seems like, at age 57, in 9-ball I occasionally either shoot the wrong
ball, or play position on the wrong ball. I don't recall anyone ever
alerting me until after the shot...
Doc
"casey kilian" <ckil...@cox.net> wrote in message
news:29f8b6a1.02051...@posting.google.com...
Deno J. Andrews
the wrong ball and failed to inform player A...player B has a class
deficiency. Winning is not everything, though many think it really is.
What really matters is one's integrity, dignity, and respect. Those
come at a much higher expense than first place...and also are lost much
faster than anyone can spend the first place money.
Deno J. Andrews
Blkjackds
ain't there to do anybody any favors. I don't believe you are onligated to
tell your opponent which ball to shoot at. You shouldn't have to pay attention
for him, because if you are like me, I have a hard enough time paying attention
for myself, nevermind the other guy.
Also, there was a rule on the MPBT that stated that you would remain seated
while your opponent is shooting, and that you were not allowed to talk to your
opponent while it was his turn at the table. As far as his attitude, it just
sounds like he was pissed off, and honestly, I would be pissed off at myself as
well. I wouldn't hold it against him. It's a natural reaction to the
situation. BTW, what was your pay out in the calcutta? Did they pay the top
3, or just the winner?
Blackjack David Sapolis
El Paso, Texas
Kevin Arco
--
Kevin Arco
www.tank69.com
"Dick Moecia" <poolhal...@cs.comNOSPAM> wrote in message
news:20020512183542...@mb-fv.news.cs.com...
casey kilian
> 9 Ball Tournament Finals (controversy)
> $700. The score is 1-1.
> Tells player he is sorry to win like that. Opponent then comments that
> is what he expected of him anyway.
> Who is right. I'm a friend of both (I think ). Casey
>
> (*<~ JOEY !
>
>
> just guessing,
>
> Doug
> ~>*(((>< Big fish eat Little fish ><)))*<~
You are clairvoyant, that is why you are the Big Fish.
Mark0
and when the balls are close to each other (as described) and I see they
shot the wrong ball, I invariably thought, 'hmmmm wonder why they're
playing that angle' or 'hmmm, I guess I can't see the angle from here after
all.' If one ball is down table from the other that's a different story.
Mark0 <--that said, for $700 I'm likely in the unscrupulous camp
"Deno J. Andrews" <de...@ix.netcom.com> wrote in message
news:3CDF1DF7...@ix.netcom.com...
casey kilian
They paid top 3.
casey kilian
> $700. The score is 1-1.
> Tells player he is sorry to win like that. Opponent then comments that
> is what he expected of him anyway.
> Who is right. I'm a friend of both (I think ). Casey
>
> (*<~ JOEY !
>
>
> just guessing,
>
> Doug
> ~>*(((>< Big fish eat Little fish ><)))*<~
James Winter
picked up the fumble and is running the wrong way with it that he's
running the wrong way.
It's the player's responsibility to know what ball to shoot, not his
opponent's to remind him.
lfigueroa
for their own actions; which includes keeping track of all elements that may
determine their success or failure; second, its a competition, which
includes who has the better ability to keep track of the aforementioned;
lastly, class only enters into the issue if Player B opens his mouth while
the other guy is at the table (or if he laughs in the other guy's face when
he goes up to take BIH :-)
Shooting the wrong shot happens all the time at one pocket -- players get
lost and start shooting at the wrong pocket. IT'S PART OF THE GAME.
Lou Figueroa
thinks 3C players should forfeit their turn
every time they get kissed into a billiard
It's a class thing.
"Deno J. Andrews" <de...@ix.netcom.com> wrote in message
news:3CDF1DF7...@ix.netcom.com...
Donald Tees
> the wrong ball and failed to inform player A...player B has a class
> deficiency. Winning is not everything, though many think it really is.
> What really matters is one's integrity, dignity, and respect. Those
> come at a much higher expense than first place...and also are lost much
> faster than anyone can spend the first place money.
> Deno J. Andrews
>
I agree that it is a matter of class ... but that works both ways. I tend
to spend the bulk of my life wandering about in a daze (comes from
progamming computers), and have often shot the wrong ball in a game of pool.
In fact, I have done it a couple times in RSB get-togethers. Getting upset
rather than being able to slough off your own foibles with a laugh at
yourself is also a matter of class.
I suppose what I am saying, is that yes, I would have said something if I
had noticed, but I am mainly the other camp. If I did not notice, I sure as
hell would not feel guilty about it, and if it was me that made the mistake,
then I sure as hell would not infer it was anything but my own stupidity
involved.
Both players sound like they need to grow up a bit to me.
Donald
Patrick Johnson
> ... players are responsible for their own actions
Let's say there was a loophole in a business contract you had with
somebody that technically allowed you to take their $700 even though you
hadn't fulfilled your part of the contract. Would you do it? If not,
why is it different? Aren't the contractees "responsible for their own
actions" just like the pool players?
Pat Johnson
Chicago
Tom In Cincy
I have been reading your posts for many years and have enjoyed you comments
and insight to the game of billiards.
IMO,
While in a 9 ball tournament, if you are shooting, and you make a good hit
on the object ball, miss it very badly and it rolls around the table, hits
another ball, and then combos the 9 into a pocket.. do you think it would be
classy to spot the 9 up?
I don't see any difference in the two situations. Except the shooter being
DUMB enough to not check the table for the lowest number ball..
Dumb luck.. either way..
Being classy would be for the gentleman that blew his shot, to NOT blame his
opponent.
The non-shooter is under no obligation to speak while his opponent is at the
table.
If this were a referreed game.. would anyone expect the Ref to tell the
shooter that the 7 ball was the next ball to shoot?
Tom In Cincy
"Deno J. Andrews" <de...@ix.netcom.com> wrote in message
news:3CDF1DF7...@ix.netcom.com...
Phong Do Khoi
of clear. In business, you both expect to profit, whereas in competition
(in most cases) there can only be one winner. As such, I don't feel you
should be responsible to watch out for your opponent; if you do, then it is
true you are a 'nice guy', but I don't think it shows any particular 'lack
of class' if you don't.
Phong Do Khoi
Bill O
players obligation to "keep his head in the game." No disrespect, or loss
of integrity should be placed on the person sitting in the chair. The
shooter controls his destiny and is completely responsible for his own game.
Is the person in the chair responsible for any and all fax paux's his
opponent makes? Should he tell the shooter to follow instead of draw to get
better shape? Come on! Players should play and stop whining.
Two weeks ago my opponent told me he "gave me three games" because he hung
the 7 twice and the 9 once which made the score 4-3 mine. I thanked him and
told him how much I appreciated his giving me those games. I won the set
because all he could think about was his unintended "gift." Wasn't it Deno
who said,"50% of the game is 90% mental?" :-)
IMHO
Bill O
"Deno J. Andrews" <de...@ix.netcom.com> wrote in message
news:3CDF1DF7...@ix.netcom.com...
JoeyA
Here are the facts:
As I was lining up for the five ball or it could have been the six ball in
the corner pocket, directly across from me, there was a person on the next
table who was throwing the cue ball into the pocket with his hand, rather
hard. When that person saw I was waiting for him to stop the distraction he
did stop whatever he was doing. At that time I got back down on the shot
and played shape on the wrong ball in which YOU called "foul" or "that's a
foul".
What I told my opponent and what I did was:
As I shook his hand, I said "Congratulations, good game".
Afterward my opponent came up later and said "I'm sorry". That is when I
said, "Name omitted, I really don't want to talk about. I got what I
expected".
He then surmised that I was talking about him in a derogatory manner. The
only derogatory thing I said to him was Congratulations, good game which was
said in a civil manner but meant sarcastically because it wasn't a good game
by either of us.
My opponent wanted to continue the conversation but I was not pleased with
the outcome and did not want to discuss anything at that point and told him
so without any anger whatsoever. I was emotionally charged after making
such a blunder and admitted to him that the outcome was all my fault and I
did get what I expected:
In past pool tournaments, I have been known to tell my opponent that they
were attempting to shoot the wrong ball. ( FTR, I am no goody-goody boy but
believe in fair play in pool tournaments.) When pressed by my opponent to
admit that I was wrong for making the comment, "I got what I expected", I
told him additionally that "(N-O), I probably would have told you that you
were shooting the wrong ball." And that made him even more upset so I chose
not to discuss the situation any further.
I genuinely don't expect my opponent to tell me that I am shooting the wrong
ball. It is a nice, classy way to show sportsmanship but I don't expect it.
BTW, is it true that my opponent looked at you when I was getting ready to
shoot the wrong ball and you gave him one of those "cringe looks" that
indicates "No, don't you dare tell hiim"? This was remarked to me by
someone who has no ax to grind with you BTW..
BTW, is my opponent the same person who when you and he were on my BCA pool
team, you organized a gambling match in which I thought you wanted to stake
me and in fact you were trying to stake him against me?
This is my opinion of my opponent: who should remain nameless. FTR, except
for this one lapse of moral judgment, he has always been of exceptional
character, great, friendly competition, above board in all that I have ever
perceived except in this one instance. He said "I'm sorry" and I just hope
that he was sorry because he knew he made a mistake in moral judgment and
not just that he was sorry because he won the way he won.
My opponent was the one who knocked me into the loser's bracket and I warmly
shook his hand and congratulated him with full intent to come back out of
the loser's bracket and feel his competitive fire.
It was just unfortunate that I had a lapse in mental concentration as we
would have had a glorious finish in the second set (because I was coming out
of the loser's bracket I had to beat my opponent twice) regardless of the
outcome.
Wondering if you are my friend.
JoeyA
P.S. Please share my post with my opponent and invite him to discuss the
situation with me as I am no longer emotionally charged. He's a nice guy.
"Blkjackds" <blkj...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:20020512223157...@mb-mh.aol.com...
rick
BTW, you think Alex Brick would alert you that you were shooting the
wrong ball.... :-) LOL
--rick
Patrick Johnson
> ... in competition (in most cases) there can only be one winner.
And why should this change the definition of "fair"?
Pat Johnson
Chicago
Smorgass Bored
Wasn't it Deno who said,"50% of the game is 90% mental?" :-)
(*<~ Deno ? I thought it was Yogi Berra
or, was it Yogi Bear.
Patrick Johnson
> on the object ball, miss it very badly and it rolls around the table, hits
> another ball, and then combos the 9 into a pocket.. do you think it would be
> classy to spot the 9 up?
Do you really think this is analogous with watching your opponent
purposely shoot the wrong ball? What if you had made a good hit on the
object ball but your opponent says "ball in hand" and starts to pick up
the cue ball? There's plenty of time to stop him from picking up the
cue ball, but you could also let him pick it up and get ball in hand for
his "foul". What would you do?
Pat Johnson
Chicago
Ron Shepard
"Tom In Cincy" <tsu...@cinci.rr.com> wrote:
> If this were a referreed game.. would anyone expect the Ref to tell the
> shooter that the 7 ball was the next ball to shoot?
Referees are explicitly required to NOT do this. They cannot advise the
shooting player in any way about what is the best shot, whether a shot
is possible, or whether a ball will pass through a gap, even if asked.
However, the nonshooting opponent could do so without penalty.
I've been in this situation and I have done it both ways. Sometimes it
depends on the opponent, sometimes it depends on what kind of mood I'm
in. In 3C, this is like telling your opponent that he is about to shoot
with the wrong cue ball. I've seen 3C players tell their opponents when
this happens, but it doesn't always happen. I have not see a written
rule on this, and I doubt that there is an unwritten rule that tells the
players what they should be doing.
$.02 -Ron Shepard
Bob Johnson
many players on the field, or an opponent is lined up offside, before the
officials make the call, to save the other team from getting a penalty?
--
Bob Johnson, Denver, Colorado
Home of the 1997/1998 World Champion Denver Broncos
Home of the 1996/2001 Stanley Cup Champion Avalanche
bo...@cris.com
"Deno J. Andrews" <de...@ix.netcom.com> wrote in message
news:3CDF1DF7...@ix.netcom.com...
casey kilian
> the wrong ball and failed to inform player A...player B has a class
> deficiency. Winning is not everything, though many think it really is.
> What really matters is one's integrity, dignity, and respect. Those
> come at a much higher expense than first place...and also are lost much
> faster than anyone can spend the first place money.
> Deno J. Andrews
> Deano, I don't think this is a case of class etc. Player B was
sitting in his chair and is not suppose to talk to player A while he
is shooting. If he does talk to player A while shooting at anytime he
will be told not to talk. Player A & B both are very competitive
players. These are both Professional working people, not pool hall
hustlers. I think player A was very angry at himself for what he did,
and in anger said something he should not have said to player B .
This is my opinoin, and to both of these players WINNING IS
EVERYTHING.
Gordon Matheson
"Smorgass Bored" <Smorga...@webtv.net> wrote in message
news:12852-3C...@storefull-2316.public.lawson.webtv.net...
> Bill O axed :
> Wasn't it Deno who said,"50% of the game is 90% mental?" :-)
> Bill O
>
> (*<~ Deno ? I thought it was Yogi Berra
>
>
> or, was it Yogi Bear.
>
said (with a lot of class). You're shooting the wrong ball you mental
midget. Don't you know pool is 45% mental.
G. -think about it, yogi was right.
Deno J. Andrews
billiard players. Shooting into a kiss is a different story because the
shot has already been taken; there is no more control. A personal story
which you may enjoy...I was playing in a tournament at Chris's many
years ago when I lined up to shoot the wrong ball accidentally. My
opponent was beating me and had a comfortable margin (I needed eight to
win and the opponent was on the hill). My opponent stopped me before
fouling. I thanked him and immediately shot into a huge kiss resulting
in a score for me...then I ran seven more and out! After the game, I
once again thanked him for his good sportsmanship. I also apologized
for the outcome of his honesty. Honesty is part of billiards, and it
used to be part of pool. I don't know when it changed, but it did. It
takes a strong person to advise his opponent of an obvious mistake that
may or may not cost him the game. And I reserve this opinion for only
obvious mistakes. There are times when it is not clear what the player
will do, and in those cases, you should not intrude...many of those
cases are in one pocket, where you are unclear of the shot.
I can understand your view and how mistakes are just part of the game.
They really are just another variable, and I have battled with it
personally when faced with game losing situations by informing my
opponents. However, as I said, it is part of the game of billiards to
be honest to your opponent. I like the game that way and decided many
years ago, and several lost games, to inform my opponent of the obvious
mistake. I guess I do so partly because that player will do the same
for me too. I watched Ceulemans throw away a whole tournament because a
ref said that he has scored a billiard that Ceulemans knew didn't
score. I mean...the REF said yes, Ceulemans said no. Sang Lee went on
to win the match; it was a close game. I know that many pool players
would say that Ceulemans was a sucker for doing so...but then again,
Ceulemans is the greatest billiard player that ever played the game, so
he must be doing something right!
Deno J. Andrews
Deno J. Andrews
me a few times when I was looking away from the table (usually in
disgust of my last inning) and did not witness the foul.
Deno
Deno J. Andrews
> While in a 9 ball tournament, if you are shooting, and you make a good hit
> on the object ball, miss it very badly and it rolls around the table, hits
> another ball, and then combos the 9 into a pocket.. do you think it would be
> classy to spot the 9 up?
> I don't see any difference in the two situations. Except the shooter being
> DUMB enough to not check the table for the lowest number ball..
Tom, there is a huge difference! One of the cases you have total
control over, and the other you have zero control of. Surely you can
see that class has only to do with those things which you control.
Spotting up the ball would change the design of the game, and you would
no longer be playing nine ball. Simply informing the opponent of an
obvious mistake happens before the shot is in motion, therefore, it has
not changed the design of the game.
> Being classy would be for the gentleman that blew his shot, to NOT blame his
> opponent.
Well, I would never blame my opponent for not telling me. I would be
disappointed in him, but it would not be right to use it as an excuse.
> The non-shooter is under no obligation to speak while his opponent is at the
> table.
Legal obligation and moral obligation are two different things. Sure, I
am not obligated to let an elderly person sit in my seat on trains, but
I do anyway because I have a moral obligation, just as I do as a
competitor.
> If this were a referreed game.. would anyone expect the Ref to tell the
> shooter that the 7 ball was the next ball to shoot?
It's not the REF's job to coach the players. It is his job to call
fouls, not point them out before hand. That job is the moral
responsibility of the opponent.
Deno J. Andrews
Deno J. Andrews
> Should he tell the shooter to follow instead of draw to get
> better shape?
No. Because then he is telling the opponent how to play. In the case
of telling the opponent of an obvious foul, you are simply allowing your
opponent to play. Telling how to play, and simply allowing to play are
totally different things.
Deno
Deno J. Andrews
> this happens, but it doesn't always happen. I have not see a written
> rule on this, and I doubt that there is an unwritten rule that tells the
> players what they should be doing.
I can tell you that the unwritten rule is clear. After twelve years of
serious tournament competition, I have never seen an opponent allow the
other player to shoot the wrong ball, if the opponent saw that the
mistake was happening. I have seen it happen where the person in the
chair was not paying attention to the game and failed to see the foul.
Deno J. Andrews
JohnA (Kent,Wa)
race to 2?
I will usually tell my opponent, unless they have shown me they are a real
jerk. IMO a real jerk are those that shark or are constantly whining and
asking for rulings.
I once played in a tourney and I asked my opponent to watch a hit because it
was very close to another ball. He stood over the shot watching very
intently. After I shot, he picked up the CB and said "Bad hit! You should
have been shooting at the ball at the other end of the table". Arghh... I
would consider this tacky but within the rules. I would consider him a jerk
but not a shark. I would consider myself a stupid moronic #$%&* dumbass. I
would not say anything to this opponent if I saw he was about to shoot at
the wrong ball. I will however continue to let others know they are about to
shoot at the wrong ball......For $700 though.........Hmmm.....
"casey kilian" <ckil...@cox.net> wrote in message
news:29f8b6a1.02051...@posting.google.com...
Deno J. Andrews
>
> So, an NFL coach should call time and shout out that the other team has too
> many players on the field, or an opponent is lined up offside, before the
> officials make the call, to save the other team from getting a penalty?
Different situation. NFL teams have coaches and assistant coaches to
make sure of what is happening on the field. If billiard players each
had a coach to control the game, then it would be the shooting players
coach's responsibility.
Deno J. Andrews
JohnA (Kent,Wa)
John (Kent,WA)
"Deno J. Andrews" <de...@ix.netcom.com> wrote in message
news:3CDFFDF1...@ix.netcom.com...
Bob Johnson
you should know and play by the rules. Shooting at the wrong ball is a
foul, because it breaks the rules, and as such is punishable by a penalty.
The competitors are supposed to be trying to win, and taking advantage of
the penalties against the opponent is part of trying to win. I really don't
think, in other than a friendly game, your opponent should be expected to
assist you in following the established rules.
--
Bob Johnson, Denver, Colorado
Home of the 1997/1998 World Champion Denver Broncos
Home of the 1996/2001 Stanley Cup Champion Avalanche
bo...@cris.com
"Deno J. Andrews" <de...@ix.netcom.com> wrote in message
news:3CE003C7...@ix.netcom.com...
Dick Moecia
wrong ball where big money is at stake is more concerned about feeling liked
and accepted, than winning the game. Next, do I tell my opponent when they're
shooting the wrong pattern when there's an easier way they're obviously
overlooking? This is just my opinion. Maybe I'm way off base, but it's how I
feel. Somebody hit on it earlier. If this game is refereed, is the ref
obligated to tell the shooter? It seems to me, the opponent is in the same
shoes as the ref. If the referee isn't allowed to say anything, because it
would be helping the shooter, why should the opponent?
Dick Moecia
www.GCABA.com
JoeyA
"JoeyA" <jo...@SPAMLESSofficespecialties.net> wrote in message
news:3cdfdd97$1...@nopics.sjc...
> Nice post Casey. You have it pretty close but not close enough.
>
> Here are the facts:
> As I was lining up for the five ball or it could have been the six ball in
> the corner pocket, directly across from me, there was a person on the next
> table who was throwing the cue ball into the pocket with his hand, rather
> hard. When that person saw I was waiting for him to stop the distraction
he
POCKETED THE CORRECT OBJECT BALL, played shape on the wrong ball AND THEN
POCKETED THE WRONG BALL in which YOU called "foul" or said "that's a
lfigueroa
business with sports. In business, if I've agree to do something in
principle, I'm going to do it -- I think that's the generally expected way
to conduct yourself if you want to stay in business :-)
In a sporting competition, I don't expect my opponent to look out for me and
I don't expect to have to look out for them. We're trying to establish who,
within a given set of parameters -- the rules -- can beat the other. If
my
opponent has a mental lapse (or just suffers from attention deficit
disorder), that's a weakness that should rightfully figure into the outcome
we're trying to achieve just as much as one of us not being able to select
the right shot, or position play, or safety.
Lou Figueroa
"Patrick Johnson" <patrick...@attbi.com> wrote in message
news:3CDFBBC7...@attbi.com...
lfigueroa
and billiard players? Do you not see how lacking in class that is?
Perhaps it is a difference between pool and billiard players, but I don't
think you can attribute it to one group's "class" or the other's lack of
it. It's just a different set of expectations, customs, and courtesies.
It'd be like saying you're a lout at pool if you didn't pick up your piece
of chalk after your inning, or tap your chalk against your cue like a sissy
after a good shot by your opponent. At pool, no one is expecting this kind
of behavior. Pool players like lots of pieces of chalk on the table, and we
like to say "nice shot, asshole" or
thump our cues on the floor like real Neanderthals after our opponent shoots
a good one. We also expect our opponents to keep mentally alert during the
match and not have to baby-sit them and hold their hand when it's their turn
at the table.
Perhaps in billiards you're expected to speak up and tell your opponent
they're shooting the wrong ball and afterwards go wipe their ass for them
too. After all, there are TWO cue balls and everyone knows billiard players
get a little confused keeping track of something so complex In almost 30
years of dabbling in 3C, I've noticed it's only billiard players who do
his -- pool players playing billiards never seem to have this problem.
Sooooo, I think rather than call it an
issue of "class," why don't we just agree that billiard players are all a
bunch of effete girlie men with ADD who need to wet nurse each other?
Lou Figueroa
of course that's just my opinion,
I could be wrong :-)
"Deno J. Andrews" <de...@ix.netcom.com> wrote in message
news:3CDFFDF1...@ix.netcom.com...
KeithD
expect or really want the same favor returned to me. IMHO, if I'm to stupid
to look at the table and make sure I'm shooting at the right ball, I deserve
to lose, I'll only learn from the exp and remember to pay attention next
time.
As far as the comment he made to the other player, he needs to grow up and
start blaming the guy that's responsible for his loss, himself. It's not
his opponents responsibility to point out that he's about to do something
stupid. I wonder what his reaction would have been if his opponent had
pointed out that trying to bank a certain ball would have been a really
stupid shot.
KeithD
shoot the
> wrong ball where big money is at stake is more concerned about feeling
liked
> and accepted, than winning the game.
Yes, some people may be overly concerned about how others view them, but I
think most are like me, they are more concerned with how they feel about
themselves. Some may feel better about themselves if they say something,
others might feel like shit that they throw away $700 to be a nice guy.
Bill O
Bill O
at the 6 ball :-(
"Smorgass Bored" <Smorga...@webtv.net> wrote in message
news:12852-3C...@storefull-2316.public.lawson.webtv.net...
Patrick Johnson
> business with sports.
> ... If my opponent has a mental lapse (or just suffers from attention
> deficit disorder), that's a weakness that should rightfully figure into
> the outcome we're trying to achieve just as much as one of us not being
> able to select the right shot, or position play, or safety.
I want to test my *pool* skills against an opponent, but not my
attention-paying skills. I also wouldn't be interested in adding a
spelling bee to the test. They're equally irrelevant to me. Sure, it's
a courtesy to pay attention, but I only want that to be a foul if it
reaches the point of being unsportsmanlike, like other courtesies are.
The "different set of expectations" thing (otherwise known as
"everybody's doin' it") holds some water, I think, and prevents me from
passing moral judgement on those who do it this way. I've purposely not
called fouls on myself so I wouldn't seem "holier than thou". But for
me that doesn't adequately answer the question "*Should* we do it this
way?"
Pat Johnson
Chicago
Patrick Johnson
> would be helping the shooter, why should the opponent?
Because the referee has to remain impartial. I'm really surprised that
so many think this is relevant. "Why should the opponent?" is a
legitimate question (it's the question we're discussing), but it has
nothing to do with how referees should act.
Pat Johnson
Chicago
Bill O
or how to hit it. Either way your talking when you should, by rule, be
silent.
Bill O
"Deno J. Andrews" <de...@ix.netcom.com> wrote in message
news:3CE000DC...@ix.netcom.com...
Deno J. Andrews
higher standards of sportsmanship than others. Billiards, snooker (and
pool in the past) were all games that subscribed to a higher standard of
sportsmanship. Although it is not a rule that you must point out to
your opponent that they are about to shoot the wrong ball, it is the
courteous thing to do. It is one of the very small parts of billiards
that really makes it a great game to compete at. I mean, it might come
up once a year only. It's not like it is an every day occurrence. All
the stuff about rules is fine, but being courteous goes above and beyond
the rules. Sportsmen that can take it to that level have a lot of
integrity and love for the game. Stopping your opponent from shooting
the wrong ball should not be a rule, but it is a wonderful thing when
someone steps up, even possibly losing the match, to be a gentleman.
Deno J. Andrews
Deno J. Andrews
than to only worry about what is at stake. If you would tell your
opponent that they are about to shoot the wrong ball for $1, there is no
reason you shouldn't tell them for $1000. If in fact you would do it
for $1 (and I am not referring to you specifically), and not for $1000,
a double standard exists...and that is sad. You see Dick, it is not
always about the payoff. Some would rather be paid off knowing that
they played with class and was courteous to their fellow competitor.
It's like when football players are running on to the sidelines and the
other players "catch" them to make sure they don't hurt themselves. It
is not in the rules that they help out their opponent, but they do
because they have class. I would be embarrassed to win by having my
opponent shoot the wrong ball, while I stood by and knew it was going to
happen. That is no way to win. People who do that have no love of
billiards, only the payoff. and us purists don't care about the payoff
as much as we do a higher level of competition and sportsmanship. A ref
is hired to "call" fouls, not advise against them. That responsibility
should fall on the opponent who knows it is about to happen, if the
opponent has any heart at all, or class for that matter. Nobody can
make an argument that a player who stands by and allows the opponent to
shoot the wrong ball, plays with class or integrity. And I bet most
serious pool players at the highest level would stop the opponent and
say something. Maybe not a couple of gambling hacks in a bar...but the
class players will always stop the opponent from shooting the wrong
ball.
Deno J. Andrews
Deno J. Andrews
>
> (sigh) Why did I know you were going to go there again about class and pool
> and billiard players? Do you not see how lacking in class that is?
I'm retired right now...that means that class is something I need not
subscribe to right now ;)
> Perhaps it is a difference between pool and billiard players, but I don't
> think you can attribute it to one group's "class" or the other's lack of
> it. It's just a different set of expectations, customs, and courtesies.
That's fine, and I can accept that...that is of course if it weren't for
the fact that many top players would indeed stop their opponent from
making that mistake.
> a good one. We also expect our opponents to keep mentally alert during the
> match and not have to baby-sit them and hold their hand when it's their turn
> at the table.
Don't you think something is wrong with pool if the sole purpose of the
person in the chair staying alert is to make sure the player isn't
cheating? I mean, isn't that the main concern of watching what your
opponent does when he is at the table? You know, stealing balls, or
lifting the penny that indicates he owes one or two...I know one pocket
players who are more alert while they are sitting and watching their
opponent, than how they are when shooting. Something is surely wrong
with that picture.
> Perhaps in billiards you're expected to speak up and tell your opponent
> they're shooting the wrong ball and afterwards go wipe their ass for them
> too.
Well, I have told plenty of guys about shooting the wrong ball...but
have yet to wipe an ass...not even my own, that's what my opponent is
for ;(
> Sooooo, I think rather than call it an
> issue of "class," why don't we just agree that billiard players are all a
> bunch of effete girlie men with ADD who need to wet nurse each other?
Well I surely agree with this statement, myself included. However, it
does not change the fact that a class player would alert the opponent,
while a less than class player would allow it to happen. I have no
problems attaching class to ethics and morality at the table. It
doesn't matter what the game is, or even what is expected of the
opponents. Class players inform, all others ignore.
Deno J. Andrews
chalk tapping sissy girlie man
Deno J. Andrews
rule was called on a player who was simply stopping the opponent from
shooting the wrong ball, it would be really stupid.
Deno
Bob Johnson
snooker are somehow above pool now? What happened that dragged pool to the
depths of a sewer rat (my words), but allowed billiards and snooker to
remain respectable, if that's in fact the case? Some cuesports command
respect, and others don't? I'm asking because I don't know, but does
gambling not exist in billiards and snooker? Is it something about pool,
other than gambling? Is it because trouble starts with T, and that rhymes
with P, and that stands for pool? Well, if that's the case, I suppose it
could be, trouble starts with T, and that rhymes with B, and that stands for
billiards!
Seriously, is there a substantial difference in respectability among
different cuesports, both nationally and internationally? If so, why?
--
Bob Johnson, Denver, Colorado
Home of the 1997/1998 World Champion Denver Broncos
Home of the 1996/2001 Stanley Cup Champion Avalanche
bo...@cris.com
"Deno J. Andrews" <de...@ix.netcom.com> wrote in message
news:3CE04D32...@ix.netcom.com...
Deno J. Andrews
have to get into the history of cue games. Unfortunately I do not have
the time to really get into it. However, a quick answer may be found in
studying why people play each of the games. Pool is the kind of game
that most people play as recreation. Pool tables are the smallest, thus
they are easier to purchase, install, and play on by a majority of
people. Billiard tables and snooker tables are large, heavy, and have
more barrier to entry into the marketplace because of their size and
cost. Historically, the wealthy have had more access to billiards and
snooker, while the general population has had more access to pool.
So when a large number of people play recreationally, the game is taken
less seriously. Because billiards and snooker are harder to access (not
harder to play), people tend to take those games more seriously. Look
at it this way, compare the total number of people who play each game
and figure out what percentage of them take the game seriously. A super
small percentage of people who play pool in the US take the game
seriously (probably not even 1/10th of 1%), compared to billiard and
snooker players in the US, who no doubt have a higher percentage of
serious players.
Gambling sure does have an effect on the image and participants of the
game. There are people who don't care about pool whatsoever, but use
the game to gamble. Those people could be throwing dice or playing
poker as well. Pool to them is the same as a card table or Roulette
wheel. When there are a number of those people involved, it is no
surprise that ethics, and moral behavior are negotiated at the table.
That is not to say that certain gamblers are also purists and appreciate
the games for what they are. But unfortunately there are not as many of
those gamblers involved in the game. Billiards on the other hand is a
game that does not have a large gambling contingent. Billiard players
are just happy to play and compete. And, most billiard players don't
need to gamble to get their rocks off. They are billiard players, and
the game is enough of a challenge. Gambling is reserved for the poker
tables or casinos. Pool players think billiard players have no heart.
To those players I say this: play in a tournament, get into the finals,
and when you are on the hill and you see that your opponent is about to
shoot the wrong ball, say something. Then they will understand how much
heart billiard players have. What someone will bet is absolutely no
indication of how stand-up someone is, nor does it have any relation to
how good a player someone is.
I have been woofed in the pool room for not betting in billiards. Yet,
these players think betting $20-$30/game is action. I have socks that
cost me more than $30! What excites me is when someone can compete with
all their heart just for the mere payoff of winning a game and playing
well. Many pool players do not have that feeling towards their game,
and it reflects, not only in their games, but in the big picture also.
So I will obviously not say that classy people play billiards and the
opposite for pool. I know plenty of high class pool players and plenty
of low class billiard players. I will say though that billiard players
per capita tend to be more serious about playing billiards than pool
players are about pool. That is of course in the big picture. Far
fewer people who play pool are serious about the game (compared to all
who play), and I think that has something to do with the expectations
and level of sportsmanship between the games.
For the long answer, I will tell you over a bottle of wine the next time
I am in Denver. The long answer will tell why it is that a higher
percentage of players are serious about the game of billiards. However,
that answer really starts when the Renaissance hit France and the rest
of Europe.
Frank G
> Wasn't it Deno
> who said,"50% of the game is 90% mental?" :-)
>
>
--
Frank G
Frank-at-Quick-Clean.com
Clean your pool table cloth with our unique product.
www.quick-clean.com
Frank G
> Do you really think this is analogous with watching your opponent
> purposely shoot the wrong ball?
>
I always tell him, just after the wrong ball collides with the cueball.
I suppose you let your opponent "go ahead and shoot" anyway if he moves
the cueball with his cue tip while taking warm up shots, too. Not me.
If that makes me Mr Meany, so be it.
Donald Tees
> Well I surely agree with this statement, myself included. However, it
> does not change the fact that a class player would alert the opponent,
> while a less than class player would allow it to happen. I have no
> problems attaching class to ethics and morality at the table. It
> doesn't matter what the game is, or even what is expected of the
> opponents. Class players inform, all others ignore.
>
> Deno J. Andrews
> chalk tapping sissy girlie man
rotllmao
I am with you on this one, Deno. In my earlier post, I probably did not
make my position very clear. I think both players showed lack of class, and
that is why they went home feeling bad. If you see an opponent about to
make a simple mistake of distraction, then it is a class act to inform them
politely. Also, if you make a dumb mistake, and your opponent does not
inform you of it, it is a class act to asume, rightly or wrongly, that they
did so for moral reasons. To take umbrage at it also shows distinct lack of
class.
I like a class act. When I play with class, and I have the privilege of
playing classy players, I always go home feeling good about the game.
Donald.
Pot smoking snooker playing old hippie.
Donald Tees
news:abpggf$q...@dispatch.concentric.net...
> Now this raises a completely different issue!? You mean, billiards and
> snooker are somehow above pool now? What happened that dragged pool to
the
> depths of a sewer rat (my words), but allowed billiards and snooker to
> remain respectable, if that's in fact the case? Some cuesports command
> respect, and others don't? I'm asking because I don't know, but does
> gambling not exist in billiards and snooker? Is it something about pool,
> other than gambling? Is it because trouble starts with T, and that rhymes
> with P, and that stands for pool? Well, if that's the case, I suppose it
> could be, trouble starts with T, and that rhymes with B, and that stands
for
> billiards!
>
> Seriously, is there a substantial difference in respectability among
> different cuesports, both nationally and internationally? If so, why?
>
I think that manners do differ from place to place, but I think it another
topic. I think a lot of this debate boils down to the question of manners
vs. rules. There is the arguement that the rules ARE the manners, and all
else is irrelevant (down to the footnote regarding the presence of a chief
of protocol), and there is the arguement that manners are what you do on a
voluntary basis, above and beyond the rules, out of respect for yourself and
your fellow man(down to the footnote "you just want to be liked").
(well duh, there are worse habits)
Personally, I agree with Deno. Both have their place. Perhaps the former
in a military court of law, for eaxmple. Civil law is more civil, but it is
for the class less, that is civilians. Hmmm. Perhaps you are right, maybe
nationality does have something to do with it.
Donald
Dick Moecia
heard from this newsgroup.
Deno writes: "If you would tell your opponent that they are about to shoot the
wrong ball for $1, there is no reason you shouldn't tell them for $1000. If in
fact you would do it for $1 (and I am not referring to you specifically), and
not for $1000, a double standard exists...and that is sad."
I won a tournament last month so I bought donuts for the office. I guess I
should have taken them out for a steak dinner by your analogy. We aren't
talking about the shooter going for the wrong ball in the first game of the
first set. We're talking about a $700 shot to win the tournament. Everybody has
a price, Deno. What's yours? What if it were $7,000.00? $70,000.00?
$700,000.00? What's your price?
There was a good Samaritan up here in Ohio who won a few million on the
lottery. He literally gave his money away to friends, relatives, etc. Five
years later he was broke but now he owed Uncle Sam a ton in income tax. His
friends said he had class. Most people thought his actions were pretty stupid
Deno also says: "You see Dick, it is not always about the payoff. Some would
rather be paid off knowing that
they played with class and was courteous to their fellow competitor."
Dick Moecia
www.GCABA.com
Donald Tees
Would, you madam, sleep with me for a million dollars?
Her: I think so.
He: Would you sleep with me for $10?
She: What do you think I am, a whore? !!!!
He: We have already established that, madam, now we are negotiating price.
Donald
"Dick Moecia" <poolhal...@cs.comNOSPAM> wrote in message
news:20020513211527...@mb-fw.news.cs.com...
Baba
that it is not the responsibility of the guy in the chair to say
anything. If you are playing a friendly match then maybe say
something, but competition is exactly that. This sport of ours is
built on mental capacities such as concentration and the ability to
handle pressure. If you lapse in concentration you can miss shots
that are hangers, and if you are brain dead even for a second you
might shoot the wrong ball. Knowing which ball to shoot seems trivial,
but it is the same thing as knowing which end of the court/field that
you should be running towards, as said before. It is the player's
responsibility to keep track. He should be upset, but only at himself.
I've done this myself once, because I wasn't paying enough attention
either. Sometimes you need a bite in the ass to learn a lesson well. I
did. Just my 2 1/2 cents.
-Bao
James Winter <win...@humnet.ucla.edu> wrote in message news:<3CDF6FAB...@humnet.ucla.edu>...
> To me it's like requiring the opposing team to notify the guy who
> picked up the fumble and is running the wrong way with it that he's
> running the wrong way.
>
> It's the player's responsibility to know what ball to shoot, not his
> opponent's to remind him.
Deno J. Andrews
>
> No offense, Deno, but this is about one of the dumbest statements I've ever
> heard from this newsgroup.
I am sorry you feel that way Dick...but at least you came up with one
that far overshadows my stupidity-
> I won a tournament last month so I bought donuts for the office. I guess I
> should have taken them out for a steak dinner by your analogy.
Not only does this have absolutely nothing to do with what I have said,
I don't even think a Philosophy major could link this statement to my
analogy.
> We aren't
> talking about the shooter going for the wrong ball in the first game of the
> first set. We're talking about a $700 shot to win the tournament. Everybody > has
> a price, Deno. What's yours? What if it were $7,000.00? $70,000.00?
> $700,000.00? What's your price?
My price...huh...let's see- Self respect, dignity, integrity,
sportsmanship, class, fair play...to name a few. If I want money Dick,
I get a job and work hard. Many pool players can't seem to figure that
out. If you are willing to negotiate your own ethics for $700, or even
$7000, I think that is pretty weak.
> There was a good Samaritan up here in Ohio who won a few million on the
> lottery. He literally gave his money away to friends, relatives, etc. Five
> years later he was broke but now he owed Uncle Sam a ton in income tax. His
> friends said he had class. Most people thought his actions were pretty stupid
What does this have to do with fair play and sportsmanship? The mere
fact, Dick, that you can't draw a parallel that has anything to do with
my point, leads me further to believe that you haven't a clue what
exactly my point is. Your above paragraph talks of someone who was not
in competition, did not make a moral decision, or was even faced with a
dilemma. This guy threw his money away once in his possession. He had
bad money skills, that's it. Please tell me how someone who has poor
money skills has anything to do with making a moral decision about a
legitimate dilemma? How does your story prove that making a moral
decision about an opponent and a game is wrong? I will save you some
time, Dick, it doesn't.
> Deno also says: "You see Dick, it is not always about the payoff. Some would
> rather be paid off knowing that
> they played with class and was courteous to their fellow competitor."
That's was true a few hours ago, and it is true now. Dick, I love the
fact that I make a moral stand, based in truth, sportsmanship and
integrity...and not a day later a pool player tells the world that it is
one of the dumbest statements he has ever heard in this forum. I am not
going to say that your position is the dumbest thing I have ever heard
here. I will say, however, that your position saddens me and further
reinforces my points.
Deno J. Andrews
Stupid and dumb...but blissful!
Bryan Davis
involved, I think most fair people would speak up. When large sums of money
are involved, the "classy" players are at a financial disadvantage.
In conclusion, poor classy players shouldn't play for money against assholes
unless they are much better than the competition.
BD
Dick Moecia
yourself.
>Subject: Re: 9 Ball Tournament Finals (controversy)
>From: "Deno J. Andrews" de...@ix.netcom.com
>Date: 5/13/02 11:15 PM Eastern Daylight Time
>Message-id: <3CE08140...@ix.netcom.com>
Dick Moecia
www.GCABA.com
lfigueroa
skills. As we're discussing in another thread, taken far enough, your
attention paying skills can get you to the point of seeing relationships
between the shots and shadows and reflections and the lights and who knows
what. It's a state of mind, (think Zen-like) where you become one with the
table and balls and cue :-)
Lou Figueroa
"Patrick Johnson" <patrick...@attbi.com> wrote in message
news:3CE03928...@attbi.com...
lfigueroa
canard. In my travels I have met many billiard players and there are just
as many snakes among them that would no sooner tell you you were about to
shoot with the red ball than tell you you'd just dropped a hundred out of
your pocket. Perhaps the tournament boys are all nice and scrubbed up, but
generally speaking some of the meanest spirited people I've ever met have
been billiard players.
Lou Figueroa
"Deno J. Andrews" <de...@ix.netcom.com> wrote in message
news:3CE04D32...@ix.netcom.com...
lfigueroa
is no heart involved in speaking up and telling your opponent they're about
to shoot he wrong ball in a tournament. Big deal, it proves nothing and
certainly doesn't prove billiard players have "heart."
Lou Figueroa
$30 socks don't get it either :-)
"Deno J. Andrews" <de...@ix.netcom.com> wrote in message
news:3CE060E6...@ix.netcom.com...
lfigueroa
ball and consciously make a decision to not stop them, your pride and
integrity remain intact. At one pocket, folks sometimes get so focused in
on safety play that they will actually make a bridge over a ball that is
sitting straight into their pocket. I have no obligation to say anything in
either case and courtesy, integrity nor pride have anything to do with it.
Lou Figueroa
"Deno J. Andrews" <de...@ix.netcom.com> wrote in message
news:3CE04F6B...@ix.netcom.com...
Jtiche
situation. All have the right to their opinion and to handle it in their own
way and should be free from cricicism from others. I was in an eight ball
tournament one night, the stakes were much, much less than $700 but as I was
lined up over a shot my opponent said something like, "what are you doing,
you're shooting the wrong ball." He thought I was shooting at a stripe as from
his vantage point he couldn't see the solid ball I was actually aiming at.
This distracted me, I raised up to answer him and then missed the ball. I felt
like I'd been sharked and would have preferred he stay out of it and let me
worry about what ball I'm shootng at and then call the foul on me if I screw
up. I find it hard to imagine a $700 tournament utilizing a race to two
format. You almost might as well be flipping coins for the purse using that
format.
James Burdette
with this dumb ass buiding contractor that liked to gamble. Between
shots he liked to go put a twenty in the poker machine. He went to the
bathroom all the time and told me to go ahead and shoot. Flirt with
waitress all the time. You know. Anyway he got turned arround and shot
a ball in my pocket. He got great shape and shot another ball in my
pocket. Then he had a real long straight in shot with cue near the
rail. Right away I said ' Wait a damn minute. You don't shoot good
enough to make that shot. My turn. You just shot two in my pocket.
I'll take over now"
Tom In Cincy
Patrick,
I can only speak and relate to the majority of pool tournaments (Pro and
Local) that I have been lucky enough to participate.
I have never played pool in Chicago or even met anyone that has had the
pleasure.
To answer your question, if my opponent calls a bad hit on me.. and I
disagree, the rules back me up.. disputed calls always go to the shooter.
Would I stop him from picking up the cue ball? I am under no obligation to
do so, but I would voice my
view of the call, if in time to stop him from picking up the cue ball, then
so be it, if he still picks it up.. then its time for the Tournament
Director to step in, He is the rules enforcer.
It is good that Chicago Players are polite (different than Classy) and that
you are always prepared to do the polite thing during tournament play.
I would tell my opponent he is shooting the wrong ball. Always have, when
there is ample time.
I would call a foul on myself. I've done so many of times. But I would also
never call a foul on myself if I had any doubt one way or another. Nor would
I ask if any bystander if they saw the hit.
I would always call a TD or Ref if there was to be a questionable hit.
I would never spot a slopped in 9 ball.. its a part of the game. Just like
somebody that can't find the lowest numbered ball on the table. This
happens.
I would like to play in Chicago.. sounds like some really neat pool players
are there.
Tom In Cincy
"Patrick Johnson" <patrick...@attbi.com> wrote in message
news:3CDFE080...@attbi.com...
> > While in a 9 ball tournament, if you are shooting, and you make a good
hit
> > on the object ball, miss it very badly and it rolls around the table,
hits
> > another ball, and then combos the 9 into a pocket.. do you think it
would be
> > classy to spot the 9 up?
>
> Do you really think this is analogous with watching your opponent
> purposely shoot the wrong ball? What if you had made a good hit on the
> object ball but your opponent says "ball in hand" and starts to pick up
> the cue ball? There's plenty of time to stop him from picking up the
> cue ball, but you could also let him pick it up and get ball in hand for
> his "foul". What would you do?
>
> Pat Johnson
> Chicago
Tom In Cincy
I certainly agree with your opinion.
My analogy didn't come across as I had planned. You are correct that its is
a designed part of the game.
Being Moral is always a good goal, in any effort in life. It makes you feel
good and look good to others, and usually helps someone. Great WIN-WIN for
all.
Like I stated in another reply, I will always tell my opponent they are
shooting the wrong ball, if I am in a position to to do. But, I will also
defend the right of any player that does not want to do the same thing.
This is only a game, to a lot of us, not a profession or business venture.
To apply morale standards and class judgements on a game of 9 ball seems
very extreme.
Just my opinion...
Tom In Cincy
"Deno J. Andrews" <de...@ix.netcom.com> wrote in message
news:3CE0000D...@ix.netcom.com...
> Tom In Cincy wrote:
> > While in a 9 ball tournament, if you are shooting, and you make a good
hit
> > on the object ball, miss it very badly and it rolls around the table,
hits
> > another ball, and then combos the 9 into a pocket.. do you think it
would be
> > classy to spot the 9 up?
> > I don't see any difference in the two situations. Except the shooter
being
> > DUMB enough to not check the table for the lowest number ball..
>
> Tom, there is a huge difference! One of the cases you have total
> control over, and the other you have zero control of. Surely you can
> see that class has only to do with those things which you control.
> Spotting up the ball would change the design of the game, and you would
> no longer be playing nine ball. Simply informing the opponent of an
> obvious mistake happens before the shot is in motion, therefore, it has
> not changed the design of the game.
>
> > Being classy would be for the gentleman that blew his shot, to NOT blame
his
> > opponent.
>
> Well, I would never blame my opponent for not telling me. I would be
> disappointed in him, but it would not be right to use it as an excuse.
>
> > The non-shooter is under no obligation to speak while his opponent is at
the
> > table.
>
> Legal obligation and moral obligation are two different things. Sure, I
> am not obligated to let an elderly person sit in my seat on trains, but
> I do anyway because I have a moral obligation, just as I do as a
> competitor.
>
> > If this were a referreed game.. would anyone expect the Ref to tell the
> > shooter that the 7 ball was the next ball to shoot?
>
> It's not the REF's job to coach the players. It is his job to call
> fouls, not point them out before hand. That job is the moral
> responsibility of the opponent.
>
> Deno J. Andrews
casey kilian
> Nice post Casey. You have it pretty close but not close enough.
>
> Here are the facts:
> As I was lining up for the five ball or it could have been the six ball in
> the corner pocket, directly across from me, there was a person on the next
> table who was throwing the cue ball into the pocket with his hand, rather
> hard. When that person saw I was waiting for him to stop the distraction he
> did stop whatever he was doing. At that time I got back down on the shot
> and played shape on the wrong ball in which YOU called "foul" or "that's a
> foul".
>
> What I told my opponent and what I did was:
>
> As I shook his hand, I said "Congratulations, good game".
>
> Afterward my opponent came up later and said "I'm sorry". That is when I
> said, "Name omitted, I really don't want to talk about. I got what I
> expected".
>
> He then surmised that I was talking about him in a derogatory manner. The
> only derogatory thing I said to him was Congratulations, good game which was
> said in a civil manner but meant sarcastically because it wasn't a good game
> by either of us.
>
> My opponent wanted to continue the conversation but I was not pleased with
> the outcome and did not want to discuss anything at that point and told him
> so without any anger whatsoever. I was emotionally charged after making
> such a blunder and admitted to him that the outcome was all my fault and I
> did get what I expected:
>
> In past pool tournaments, I have been known to tell my opponent that they
> were attempting to shoot the wrong ball. ( FTR, I am no goody-goody boy but
> believe in fair play in pool tournaments.) When pressed by my opponent to
> admit that I was wrong for making the comment, "I got what I expected", I
> told him additionally that "(N-O), I probably would have told you that you
> were shooting the wrong ball." And that made him even more upset so I chose
> not to discuss the situation any further.
>
> I genuinely don't expect my opponent to tell me that I am shooting the wrong
> ball. It is a nice, classy way to show sportsmanship but I don't expect it.
>
> BTW, is it true that my opponent looked at you when I was getting ready to
> shoot the wrong ball and you gave him one of those "cringe looks" that
> indicates "No, don't you dare tell hiim"? This was remarked to me by
> someone who has no ax to grind with you BTW..
>
> BTW, is my opponent the same person who when you and he were on my BCA pool
> team, you organized a gambling match in which I thought you wanted to stake
> me and in fact you were trying to stake him against me?
>
> This is my opinion of my opponent: who should remain nameless. FTR, except
> for this one lapse of moral judgment, he has always been of exceptional
> character, great, friendly competition, above board in all that I have ever
> perceived except in this one instance. He said "I'm sorry" and I just hope
> that he was sorry because he knew he made a mistake in moral judgment and
> not just that he was sorry because he won the way he won.
>
> My opponent was the one who knocked me into the loser's bracket and I warmly
> shook his hand and congratulated him with full intent to come back out of
> the loser's bracket and feel his competitive fire.
>
> It was just unfortunate that I had a lapse in mental concentration as we
> would have had a glorious finish in the second set (because I was coming out
> of the loser's bracket I had to beat my opponent twice) regardless of the
> outcome.
>
> Wondering if you are my friend.
> JoeyA
>
> P.S. Please share my post with my opponent and invite him to discuss the
> situation with me as I am no longer emotionally charged. He's a nice guy.
>
btw.. No I did't cringe when opponent looked at me, I put my finger
over my lips (golden rule of Joey, don't talk when I'm at the table.)
You have to focus and concentrate. Yes, opponent is the same one that
you said you could beat anytime you played him, which you could not do
then, but can do now. Back to the subject matter. Spoke to opponent
and two other spectators, original post is correct with the exception
that when questioned about what you meant about your statement took
place as you were leaving to go eat with T.P. (no ax to grind ) not
right after you made comment. Bottom line..STATEMENT YOU MADE.(YOU
HAD A LAPSE IN MENTAL CONCENTRATION.) When you or anybody else shoots
a ball in our opponents pocket by mistake, does our opponent tell us
before we shoot that it is his pocket we are shooting at. Nobody likes
to lose, but it is part of the game. You have worked hard to get to
the level of play that you have achieved. You are a gambler, you like
to play for money. And your matching up better.(your favor of course)
better than the opponents favor. I will still take 9-7 or the wild 7 .
You may play me as a friend if you want. CASEY.
P.S. Yes he is a nice guy.
>
> "Blkjackds" <blkj...@aol.com> wrote in message
> news:20020512223157...@mb-mh.aol.com...
> > If it was me in the finals, I want him to trip, lose an eye, or whatever.
> I
> > ain't there to do anybody any favors. I don't believe you are onligated
> to
> > tell your opponent which ball to shoot at. You shouldn't have to pay
> attention
> > for him, because if you are like me, I have a hard enough time paying
> attention
> > for myself, nevermind the other guy.
> >
> > Also, there was a rule on the MPBT that stated that you would remain
> seated
> > while your opponent is shooting, and that you were not allowed to talk to
> your
> > opponent while it was his turn at the table. As far as his attitude, it
> just
> > sounds like he was pissed off, and honestly, I would be pissed off at
> myself as
> > well. I wouldn't hold it against him. It's a natural reaction to the
> > situation. BTW, what was your pay out in the calcutta? Did they pay the
> top
> > 3, or just the winner?
> >
> > Blackjack David Sapolis
> > El Paso, Texas
Smorgass Bored
cody...@webtv.net
(James Burdette) plagiarized :
Anyway he got turned arround and shot a ball in my pocket. He got great
shape and shot another ball in my pocket. Then he had a real long
straight in shot with cue near the rail. Right away I said ' Wait a damn
minute. You don't shoot good enough to make that shot. My turn. You just
shot two in my pocket. I'll take over now"
shame,shame,shame,
Doug
~>*(((>< Big fish eat Little fish ><)))*<~
James Burdette
would tell them after they shot in the first ball. Otherwise they
really moan and want to spot the balls back up and shit. Was suppose to
be an amusing anecdote anyway. Hadn't you heard all those war stories
from Freddy The Beard and Buddy etc. back in the seventies?? Never let
a little lie stand in the way of a good story. Scuse moi....
JoeyA
table like a man. We both know that you play every bit as well as I do my
friend. You can play for fun or profit.
So with your finger over your lips, you helped persuade my opponent to
remain silent while I committed the error? I should have known that you
were the fly in the soup, my friend.
Regardless, I didn't deserve to win anyway. My mistake, you know.....I
guess it is OK to tell your friends how they should play while the game is
in progress, but personally I like to make my own decisions.
As to you level of play:
You still have that impressionistic style of painting when describing your
speed. Are you kin to Alexander Drysdale?
:-)
JoeyA
"casey kilian" confessed:
J. Rogers
wrote:
>Perhaps it's just a different set of expectations, because I don't equate
>business with sports. In business, if I've agree to do something in
>principle, I'm going to do it -- I think that's the generally expected way
>to conduct yourself if you want to stay in business :-)
Reminds me of a question a man asked of an economist. Since investing
in the stock market is gambling, what is the difference between
gambling and investing. His reply was that when investing everybody
works together to make money for everybody else, but when gambling
everybody is working hard against you to you lose money.
>In a sporting competition, I don't expect my opponent to look out for me and
>I don't expect to have to look out for them. We're trying to establish who,
>within a given set of parameters -- the rules -- can beat the other. If
>my
>opponent has a mental lapse (or just suffers from attention deficit
>disorder), that's a weakness that should rightfully figure into the outcome
>we're trying to achieve just as much as one of us not being able to select
>the right shot, or position play, or safety.
>
I agree that it is all part of the game. I expect no breaks from my
opponents and give no breaks. If the situation happened to me like
the situation described, I would be upset; but I could only be upset
with myself.
J.
Sherm Adamson
being stopped, you now have that pocket, and may continue shooting. It often
comes up where it is appropriate to shoot a ball in your opponents pocket
(usually a hanger), but your turn ends here! If you're allowed to continue
shooting, it is to be assumed that you are doing so legally.
Just more hot air!
Sherm
--
Sherm Custom Billiard Cues by,
Sherman Adamson
3352 Nine Mile Rd., Cincinnati Ohio 45255
Shop (513)553-2172, Cell (513)509-9152
http://www.shermcue.com
"James Burdette" <cody...@webtv.net> wrote in message
news:21683-3CE...@storefull-2194.public.lawson.webtv.net...
Smorgass Bored
cody...@webtv.net (James Burdette)
(*<~ You're exactly right, Codybird. I was just bustin your balls a
bit.
should have used a smiley face,
Patrick Johnson
> I would like to play in Chicago.. sounds like some really neat pool players
> are there.
LOL. I'd be glad to see you here, but don't expect any more
"politeness" here than you find in Cincy. If by "neat" you mean
"talented", you'll find plenty of that...
By asking these questions, I'm not trying to say that I would act
perfectly in all these hypothetical cases, or that I'm more "moral" than
anybody else. I'm just curious about the thinking behind this "caveat
emptor" principle of competition. Frankly, I don't agree with the idea
that because the rules permit it, it's OK -- but on the other hand maybe
I'd feel differently for $700. I have the luxury of imagining all these
things from a safe perspective because I almost never gamble or play in
cash tournaments.
So when are you coming?
Pat Johnson
Chicago
Bob Jewett
> In the old days, if you shot a second ball in your opponents hole, without
> being stopped, you now have that pocket, and may continue shooting. It often
> comes up where it is appropriate to shoot a ball in your opponents pocket
> (usually a hanger), but your turn ends here! If you're allowed to continue
> shooting, it is to be assumed that you are doing so legally.
Ah, but if you "acquire" the pocket by inattention of both players, do you
also get what the pocket contains? Or do you try to sort out who had how
many before the switch happened?
Or how about: Ronnie shoot a ball into your pocket. Sly like a fox, you
continue to fix your tip. He banks another ball close to your pocket.
You then say, "Foul, playing out of turn," and spot up one of his balls.
Net progress three balls.
What is the rule in the tournaments?
--
Bob Jewett
Patrick Johnson
> many before the switch happened?
... and do you get the first one (that you shot in "illegally" before
the switch was triggered by the second one)?
Pat Johnson
Chicago
Tom In Cincy
Chicago is not on my agenda for anytime in the near future, hasn't been for
quite sometime.
But, I will be at the US Open in Sept. The Glass City Open (Toledo, OH) in
November and at the 5th annual Derby City Classic in Louisville KY in Jan.
of 2003..
Maybe we could meet and play in one of these events.
Tom In Cincy
"Patrick Johnson" <patrick...@attbi.com> wrote in message
news:3CE151A9...@attbi.com...
James Burdette
like the SMORG. Interesting questions below posed by Bob J and Patrick
concerning shooting at opponents pockets. Any thoughts there??.........
cody
lfigueroa
Speaking of how "swell" billiard players are: Here locally, I know a grand
total of five folks, who are what I would call "billiard players."
One is a top flight player, who, upon losing a game of 3C to a mere pool
player, took his stick apart and hasn't spoken to that player in ten years.
Another is an attorney (as if that alone weren't enough) who is one of the
biggest flaming assholes I've ever met in my entire life.
The third is guy who is so scared of getting beat, that when a player who he
knew was trying to get ready for a tournament asked him to play a game,
started an argument for no good reason, just to have an excuse not to
practice and get beat.
The fourth is a weirdo who will only practice by himself saying,"Why play
someone and only get to play half as much for the same amount of money."
The fifth guy is an excellent player and a nice guy.
Then of course there are the dozens of Orientals and Latins who come in and
smoke and carouse and actually... PLAY 3C FOR MONEY :-)
Don't even think about getting me started on the 3C players back at Palace
Billiards and Cochran's in San Francisco when I was growing up. Believe me,
none of them would have ever been mistaken for members of the Royal Family.
Lou Figueroa
"lfigueroa" <lfig...@att.net> wrote in message
news:5h6E8.30$D41....@bgtnsc05-news.ops.worldnet.att.net...
Smorgass Bored
Interesting questions below posed by Bob J and Patrick concerning
(*<~ You mean I CAN'T do that ? NOW they tell me. There goes my
game.
what game,
Deno J. Andrews
Deno J. Andrews
Deno J. Andrews
> Like I stated in another reply, I will always tell my opponent they are
> shooting the wrong ball, if I am in a position to to do. But, I will also
> defend the right of any player that does not want to do the same thing.
I defend a player's right not to say anything either. I don't think it
should be a rule, and I fully support any player who will not tell their
opponent. However, I know that it takes a serious lack of class to
stand by and watch an opponent shoot the wrong ball, for personal gain.
Deno J. Andrews
Deno J. Andrews
> is no heart involved in speaking up and telling your opponent they're about
> to shoot he wrong ball in a tournament. Big deal, it proves nothing and
> certainly doesn't prove billiard players have "heart."
Sure it does.
Deno
Deno J. Andrews
>
> This idea that billiard players are more sportsman-like than others is a
> canard. In my travels I have met many billiard players and there are just
> as many snakes among them that would no sooner tell you you were about to
> shoot with the red ball than tell you you'd just dropped a hundred out of
> your pocket.
Well, I don't think your carom travels are as numerous as mine...and the
billiard players you have probably met are just roomies who happen to be
able to make billiards. Most of those kinds of players are old pool
players who can't make balls anymore and turn to billiards. I know a
tin of those players too and don't disagree with your analysis.
> Perhaps the tournament boys are all nice and scrubbed up, but
> generally speaking some of the meanest spirited people I've ever met have
> been billiard players.
Well, I can't say that I have the same feelings.
Deno J. Andrews
casey kilian
> Casey you can play pool with me anytime but you have to belly up to the
> table like a man. We both know that you play every bit as well as I do my
> friend. You can play for fun or profit.
>
> So with your finger over your lips, you helped persuade my opponent to
> remain silent while I committed the error? I should have known that you
> were the fly in the soup, my friend.
>
> Regardless, I didn't deserve to win anyway. My mistake, you know.....I
> guess it is OK to tell your friends how they should play while the game is
> in progress, but personally I like to make my own decisions.
>
> As to you level of play:
> You still have that impressionistic style of painting when describing your
> speed. Are you kin to Alexander Drysdale?
> :-)
> JoeyA
not. He was sitting in his chair keeping quiet while you were shooting
the 8 ball in the pocket, just think if you had missed. ha ha==joke
2. As for being the fly in the soup, there was no fly present til you
made the 8 ball and I said it was a foul..You said, ( YOU HAD A LASPE
IN MENTAL CONCENTRATION ) 3. I didn't tell opponent how to play
while game was in progress, you were at the table shooting the wrong
ball. You need to read all the responses that the RSB people have
given and see if you feel you were right in the commment you made to
your opponent. The comment and the Foul are the issue. If you feel
you are right OK, you will make a good 3 C player. 4. I play under
you and everyone in N.O. knows that, so I should belly up to the table
like a man. You ask Jamie for 11-7 in one pocket, the 6 in 9 ball,
you ask Glenn for the 8 ball , you get 9-7 from Luc, The 5 from
Scotty. All I'm trying to do is Belly up to the table like you do.
YOUR FRIEND, THE FLY...
Smorgass Bored
Sooooo, I think rather than call it an
issue of "class," why don't we just agree that billiard players are all
a bunch of effete girlie men with ADD who need to wet nurse each other?
Deno returned serve with :
Well I surely agree with this statement, myself included.
Deno J. Andrews
chalk tapping sissy girlie man
(*<~ Deno, I don't care if you are effete and wear a magenta
sportscoat. You have a nice ass and I like you.
sending Deno flowers & chocolates,
Tampa Tubby-Bob
PS
I hope your wife's not reading this,
Deno J. Andrews
> (*<~ Deno, I don't care if you are effete and wear a magenta
> sportscoat. You have a nice ass and I like you.
> sending Deno flowers & chocolates,
> Tampa Tubby-Bob
>
> PS
> I hope your wife's not reading this,
Ooooh Dougie, I like it when you talk dirty to me! Can't wait for the
chocolates and flowers ;) Oh, my wife knows of my "other" life, so
don't worry.
Deno
Dick Moecia
it's not as stellar as your opinion, but I think the only serious lack of class
in this arguement is your arrogance.
Deno's last word: "I defend a player's right not to say anything either. I
don't think it should be a rule, and I fully support any player who will not
tell their opponent. However, I know that it takes a serious lack of class to
stand by and watch an opponent shoot the wrong ball, for personal gain."
Dick Moecia
www.GCABA.com
James Winter
the wrong way? I don't see it as dishonest to not make sure your
opponent makes no silly mental mistakes. In fact, I think such mental
mistakes are often the result of the pressures of playing a match,
and should thus be considered part of the game and dealing with
pressure.
"Deno J. Andrews" wrote:
>
> It's not silly at all, it's simply the difference between pool and
> billiard players. Shooting into a kiss is a different story because the
> shot has already been taken; there is no more control. A personal story
> which you may enjoy...I was playing in a tournament at Chris's many
> years ago when I lined up to shoot the wrong ball accidentally. My
> opponent was beating me and had a comfortable margin (I needed eight to
> win and the opponent was on the hill). My opponent stopped me before
> fouling. I thanked him and immediately shot into a huge kiss resulting
> in a score for me...then I ran seven more and out! After the game, I
> once again thanked him for his good sportsmanship. I also apologized
> for the outcome of his honesty. Honesty is part of billiards, and it
> used to be part of pool. I don't know when it changed, but it did. It
> takes a strong person to advise his opponent of an obvious mistake that
> may or may not cost him the game. And I reserve this opinion for only
> obvious mistakes. There are times when it is not clear what the player
> will do, and in those cases, you should not intrude...many of those
> cases are in one pocket, where you are unclear of the shot.
>
> I can understand your view and how mistakes are just part of the game.
> They really are just another variable, and I have battled with it
> personally when faced with game losing situations by informing my
> opponents. However, as I said, it is part of the game of billiards to
> be honest to your opponent. I like the game that way and decided many
> years ago, and several lost games, to inform my opponent of the obvious
> mistake. I guess I do so partly because that player will do the same
> for me too. I watched Ceulemans throw away a whole tournament because a
> ref said that he has scored a billiard that Ceulemans knew didn't
> score. I mean...the REF said yes, Ceulemans said no. Sang Lee went on
> to win the match; it was a close game. I know that many pool players
> would say that Ceulemans was a sucker for doing so...but then again,
> Ceulemans is the greatest billiard player that ever played the game, so
> he must be doing something right!
>
> Deno J. Andrews
>
> lfigueroa wrote:
> >
> > This is silliness of the first order. First off, players are responsible
> > for their own actions; which includes keeping track of all elements that may
> > determine their success or failure; second, its a competition, which
> > includes who has the better ability to keep track of the aforementioned;
> > lastly, class only enters into the issue if Player B opens his mouth while
> > the other guy is at the table (or if he laughs in the other guy's face when
> > he goes up to take BIH :-)
> >
> > Shooting the wrong shot happens all the time at one pocket -- players get
> > lost and start shooting at the wrong pocket. IT'S PART OF THE GAME.
> >
> > Lou Figueroa
> > thinks 3C players should forfeit their turn
> > every time they get kissed into a billiard
> > It's a class thing.
Jimbo Ct
to the
>table like a man. We both know that you play every bit as well as I do my
>friend. You can play for fun or profit.
O-Boy I smell a scam on the horizon, can someone please donate a few cues to
these guys?
Jim<-----Wonderin if Hugh LCS King is the promoter behind this?
Jimbo Ct
you
>made the 8 ball and I said it was a foul.
Wait you lost me. Casey did you call the foul, or did his oppoinent call it and
you just commented on it after?
Jim <-----Starting to wonder if Casey really was an innocent by-stander with
nothing to gain or lose
Hugh(LCS)
"i am not a crook"
--
The General
RH Arnold
Jimbo Ct <jim...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:20020515053359...@mb-fi.aol.com...
lfigueroa
fact that in the same breath you even thought to mention that you own $30
socks shows you don't really understand the term. So sorry, no heart
involved -- but then again, I wouldn't expect a billiard player to
understand the term in the
first place ;-)
Lou Figueroa
doesn't claim to have it,
just knows it when he sees it
(or doesn't)
"Deno J. Andrews" <de...@ix.netcom.com> wrote in message
news:3CE1A67D...@ix.netcom.com...
lfigueroa
that I have seen a wider spectrum than you, here and abroad, over a longer
period of time. But that of course won't stop you from making wild guess
about who the billiard players I've seen have been and what their
backgrounds and motivation for playing the game might be. woo wee! It must
be this ability to divine things unknown to other mere mortals that gives
you access to the ivory tower from which you make your high handed
pronouncements.
Yes, you have seen much more of the upper echelon, in tournaments. Big
deal, it doesn't mean they have more class -- in tournaments everyone is
generally on their best behavior. I've played Keith McCreaty and Cliff
Joyner in tournaments
and they were both perfect gentlemen -- not that I would trust either any
further than I could throw them once outside the tournament arena. My
perfectly valid experiences with billiard players -- your clairvoyant
opinion to the contrary -- has shown me that there are many snakes,
eccentrics, idiots, assholes, and *a peculiar breed of snobs* that inhabit
3C Land.
It is a leap and pretty silly to suggest than because one group plays on a
table
without pockets they have more class. But of course you are sitting
sooooooooo far up on that horse right now, you can no longer distinguish
between a leap and falling on your face ;-)
Lou Figueroa
"Deno J. Andrews" <de...@ix.netcom.com> wrote in message
news:3CE1A747...@ix.netcom.com...
lfigueroa
woo wee. Joey, you da man.
Lou Figueroa
Joey's bud, but does think CK scored points
with the 3C crack :-)
"casey kilian" <ckil...@cox.net> wrote in message
news:29f8b6a1.02051...@posting.google.com...