VHOF: 1983 results, 1991 ballot
Douglas T. (Doug) Massey
http://doug.obscurestuff.com/vhof.html
Note the new, colorized pictures for many of the old-timers!
John Montgomery "Monte" Ward had to wait a long time, but he's finally
been elected to the Virtual Hall of Fame. Moreso than any other
member, perhaps, Ward has his off-the-field contributions to the game
and to the organization of its players to thank for his election. A
terrific pitcher for seven years and a fine shortstop for eleven more,
Ward was a terrific basestealer and fine hitter as well and one of the
standouts from the 19th century.
Ward served as a successful manager as well and led several of the
early attempts at unionizing players against the owners (including
the Brotherhood of National League Players, the Player's League, and
the Federal League.
The grassroots support for Ward reached its culmination this year, when
his name appeared on more ballots than any other candidate.
The totals for the 1983 election:
Player Pts First-place votes
John "Monte" Ward 47 (3)
Ralph Kiner 40 (3)
Robin Roberts 31 (1)
Joe Cronin 28 (3)
Willie Wells 20 (2)
Dick Allen 18
Dazzy Vance 15 (2)
Brooks Robinson 15 (1)
Billy Williams 10 (2)
George Sisler 9
Al Spalding 9
Lou Brock 8 (1)
The next election jumps forward to 1991. In between a crew of fine
modern players were elected: Johnny Bench, Joe Morgan, Carl Yastrzemski,
Jim Palmer, Tom Seaver, Phil Niekro, Rod Carew, Steve Carlton,
Mike Schmidt, and Reggie Jackson. Having already been elected, they
are no longer eligible.
A number of other players have retired and are now eligible. These
include Bert Campaneris, Bobby Murcer, Fergie Jenkins, Jim Kaat,
Gaylord Perry, Amos Otis, Tug McGraw, Larry Bowa, Al Oliver, Rusty
Staub, Jerry Koosman, Rollie Fingers, Dusty Baker, Cesar Cedeno,
George Foster, Bobby Grich, Toby Harrah, Dave Kingman, Tony Perez,
Pete Rose, Vida Blue, Ron Cey, Cecil Cooper, Steve Garvey, Gary Matthews,
Hal McRae, Don Baylor, Chris Chambliss, Dave Concepcion, Jose Cruz,
George Hendrick, Graig Nettles, Larry Parrish, Ted Simmons, Ron Guidry,
Joe Niekro, Don Sutton, Bruce Sutter, Gene Garber, Buddy Bell, Darrell
Evans, Jim Rice, Chris Speier, Jim Sundberg, Tommy John, Kent Tekulve,
Bob Boone, Bill Buckner, Keith Hernandez, Frank White, Jerry Reuss, and
Dan Quiesenberry.
The also-rans of the 1983 election and all other players who played
their final year in 1990 or earlier are eligible for the election.
Vote for five players, ranked in order from first to fifth, and email
your ballot to me at masseyd at btv.ibm.com. I'll tabulate votes and
announce a winner once the votes stop coming in. Feel free to discuss
the election here.
Doug
--
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
___, Doug Massey, ASIC Digital Logic Designer
\o IBM Microelectronics Division, Burlington, Vermont |>
| Phone: (802)769-7095 t/l: 446-7095 fax: x6752 |
/ \ |
. My homepage: http://doug.obscurestuff.com (|)
Douglas T. (Doug) Massey
mas...@valhalla.btv.ibm.com (Douglas T. (Doug) Massey ) writes:
>
> The next election jumps forward to 1991. In between a crew of fine
> modern players were elected: Johnny Bench, Joe Morgan, Carl Yastrzemski,
> Jim Palmer, Tom Seaver, Phil Niekro, Rod Carew, Steve Carlton,
> Mike Schmidt, and Reggie Jackson. Having already been elected, they
> are no longer eligible.
>
> A number of other players have retired and are now eligible. These
> include Bert Campaneris, Bobby Murcer, Fergie Jenkins, Jim Kaat,
> Gaylord Perry, Amos Otis, Tug McGraw, Larry Bowa, Al Oliver, Rusty
> Staub, Jerry Koosman, Rollie Fingers, Dusty Baker, Cesar Cedeno,
> George Foster, Bobby Grich, Toby Harrah, Dave Kingman, Tony Perez,
> Pete Rose, Vida Blue, Ron Cey, Cecil Cooper, Steve Garvey, Gary Matthews,
> Hal McRae, Don Baylor, Chris Chambliss, Dave Concepcion, Jose Cruz,
> George Hendrick, Graig Nettles, Larry Parrish, Ted Simmons, Ron Guidry,
> Joe Niekro, Don Sutton, Bruce Sutter, Gene Garber, Buddy Bell, Darrell
> Evans, Jim Rice, Chris Speier, Jim Sundberg, Tommy John, Kent Tekulve,
> Bob Boone, Bill Buckner, Keith Hernandez, Frank White, Jerry Reuss, and
> Dan Quiesenberry.
The first priority would be to narrow this list now, I think.
Here's my guess at the most qualified candidates at each position:
1B: Dick Allen
2B: Bobby Grich (I still think Bill Mazeroski, but no one else does)
3B: Darrell Evans
SS: Joe Cronin, still.
C: Gene Tenace, Joe Torre, or Ted Simmons -- take your pick.
LF: Ralph Kiner
CF: Cesar Cedeno
RF: meh . . .
SP: Dazzy Vance, Gaylord Perry, Robin Roberts, and Fergie Jenkins.
RP: Dan Quisenberry
Right now, I feel like the VHOF is short at 3B and at RP, so Evans and
Quiz will be getting votes from me. I think Kiner, Vance, and Perry
will also find their way onto my ballot.
Quiz-Kiner-Vance-Evans-Perry, maybe?
Pitchers in MLB history with a better ERA+ than Dan Quisenberry:
Pedro Martinez and Lefty Grove. He's tied with Walter Johnson,
Hoyt Wilhelm, and Smokey Joe Wood at 146.
Dvd Avins
news:c0r6gb$hag$2...@news.btv.ibm.com...
<snip>
> Here's my guess at the most qualified candidates at each position:
>
> 1B: Dick Allen
> 2B: Bobby Grich (I still think Bill Mazeroski, but no one else does)
> 3B: Darrell Evans
> SS: Joe Cronin, still.
I might take Cronin over Wells, too, but it's so hard to know. Was that a
conscious choice, or did you not consider Wells. (I had Wells 3rd and Cronin
4th on my last ballot.)
Douglas T. (Doug) Massey
No, I almost typed Cronin and Wells. I guess I think of John Lloyd
Henry as the Negro League SS and am reluctant to vote for Wells over
Cronin. 'Course, I'm not voting for Cronin, either, since he's below
Honus Wagner, Arky Vaughan, George Davis, Cal Ripken, Barry Larkin,
Ernie Banks, and Robin Yount, and I think two other undeserving SS's
got in (Luke Appling and Bill Dahlen -- just my opinion). The VHOF
has 9 shortstops (ten if you count Ward); I'd rather add a 3B, LF, or
pitcher.
According to Mischa, here's Willie Wells story:
"He hit .328 in the Negro Leagues with 138 HR (in 3981 AB). He is
tied for 12th all-time in batting average, trailing VHOF players Gibson,
Charleston and Lloyd and a bunch of 1B/OF types (Suttles, Jenkins,
Torriente, Leonard, Stearnes), slow, poor-fielding utility men who
didn't draw walks (Wilson, Beckwith) and Bullet Joe Rogan (more on him
later). He's tied with Cool Papa Bell and is only 9 points behind Lloyd,
the Negro League SS in the VHOF."
Is 3981 AB a short career for a Negro Leaguer? Cronin's was *twice*
as long. It's effectively six full ML seasons . . . that ain't much.
But the power is impressive, I guess (about a 25-per-season pace).
"He is 5th all-time in home runs, trailing VHOF members Gibson and
Charleston and 1B/OF Suttles and OF Torriente. He's 44 above Wilson, who
is 6th. So we're talking about a shortstop who has more career HR than
Buck Leonard, who almost made the VHOF as a 1B and Hall of Fame sluggers
like Turkey Stearnes."
What does the Negro League all-time HR list look like? Gibson at 900
or so in first, then all the way down to 138 for fifth place?
" Against white major-league pitchers he hit .353 (the second highest
mark among those with over 100 AB) with 5 HR in 116 AB, certainly good
numbers for a shortstop.
He was one of the greatest hitters in Mexican baseball too when he
gave that a shot. The guy put up dazzling average and EBH totals
everywhere. I don't have career double totals, but it wouldn't surprise
me if he was the all-time Negro League leader in that category.
He was durable. He played for 25 years, finishing up on an infield
with his own son. He was a shortstop until almost the end, fielding well."
So the 3981 AB is either an average of 160 per year or some sub-set of
his actual statistics.
" So - his offensive stats are pretty similar to near-VHOF-member Buck
Leonard while playing a much more valuable position and are better than
regular Hall of Famers Turkey Stearnes, Ray Dandridge, Judy Johnson (who
shouldn't be in the Hall)...well just about any Negro Leaguer other than
Charleston or Gibson. He played forever. He stole bases. He was a solid
defensive player who lasted at shortstop for over two decades. He was a
key cog on champion teams. He hit black pitchers. He hit white pitchers.
He hit Latino pitchers. He hit for contact. He hit for power. What more
do we want?"
A better idea about how that performance would translate to playing
in the major leagues, I guess.
Smokey Joe Williams, Satchel Paige, Josh Gibson, John Lloyd Henry,
and Oscar Charleston are the five Negro League representative in the
VHOF right now, about one per decade for the first five decades of
the 20th century. About 27 MLB players got in from the same time frame.
I guess I'm not convinced that this ratio is out of whack, personally.
Kenny
news:c0r5ul$hag$1...@news.btv.ibm.com...
>
> A number of other players have retired and are now eligible. These
> include Bert Campaneris, Bobby Murcer, Fergie Jenkins, Jim Kaat,
> Gaylord Perry, Amos Otis, Tug McGraw, Larry Bowa, Al Oliver, Rusty
> Staub, Jerry Koosman, Rollie Fingers, Dusty Baker, Cesar Cedeno,
> George Foster, Bobby Grich, Toby Harrah, Dave Kingman, Tony Perez,
> Pete Rose, Vida Blue, Ron Cey, Cecil Cooper, Steve Garvey, Gary Matthews,
> Hal McRae, Don Baylor, Chris Chambliss, Dave Concepcion, Jose Cruz,
> George Hendrick, Graig Nettles, Larry Parrish, Ted Simmons, Ron Guidry,
> Joe Niekro, Don Sutton, Bruce Sutter, Gene Garber, Buddy Bell, Darrell
> Evans, Jim Rice, Chris Speier, Jim Sundberg, Tommy John, Kent Tekulve,
> Bob Boone, Bill Buckner, Keith Hernandez, Frank White, Jerry Reuss, and
> Dan Quiesenberry.
Now that is quite a field to chose from! Hmm, shall Pete Rose be on my
ballot? Probably not, but I haven't made my final decision yet.
Kenny
Dvd Avins
> news:c0r5ul$hag$1...@news.btv.ibm.com...
> >
> > A number of other players have retired and are now eligible. These
> > include Bert Campaneris, Bobby Murcer, Fergie Jenkins, Jim Kaat,
> > Gaylord Perry, Amos Otis, Tug McGraw, Larry Bowa, Al Oliver, Rusty
> > Staub, Jerry Koosman, Rollie Fingers, Dusty Baker, Cesar Cedeno,
> > George Foster, Bobby Grich, Toby Harrah, Dave Kingman, Tony Perez,
> > Pete Rose, Vida Blue, Ron Cey, Cecil Cooper, Steve Garvey, Gary
Matthews,
> > Hal McRae, Don Baylor, Chris Chambliss, Dave Concepcion, Jose Cruz,
> > George Hendrick, Graig Nettles, Larry Parrish, Ted Simmons, Ron Guidry,
> > Joe Niekro, Don Sutton, Bruce Sutter, Gene Garber, Buddy Bell, Darrell
> > Evans, Jim Rice, Chris Speier, Jim Sundberg, Tommy John, Kent Tekulve,
> > Bob Boone, Bill Buckner, Keith Hernandez, Frank White, Jerry Reuss, and
> > Dan Quiesenberry.
Looking only at on-field accomplishments, I think Perry is the top eligible
pitcher. But, though I may have been jumping to conclusions, I had the
impression at the time that he tried to undercut Frank Robinson as a manger,
because he didn't like having a black boss. And I know he was considered a
clubhouse cancer in his brief stay with the Yankees, and I would guess in
others of his late-career teams, as well. Does anyone here no more?
--
"Prohibition will work great injury to the cause of temperance. It is a
species of intemperance within itself, for it goes beyond the bounds of
reason in that it attempts to control a man's appetite by legislation, and
makes a crime out of things that are not crimes. A Prohibition law strikes a
blow at the very principles upon which our government was founded."
- Abraham Lincoln, speech, 18 Dec 1840
Cameron Laird
Douglas T. (Doug) Massey <mas...@valhalla.no.spam.com> wrote:
.
.
.
>Here's my guess at the most qualified candidates at each position:
>
>1B: Dick Allen
>2B: Bobby Grich (I still think Bill Mazeroski, but no one else does)
>3B: Darrell Evans
>SS: Joe Cronin, still.
>C: Gene Tenace, Joe Torre, or Ted Simmons -- take your pick.
>LF: Ralph Kiner
>CF: Cesar Cedeno
>RF: meh . . .
>SP: Dazzy Vance, Gaylord Perry, Robin Roberts, and Fergie Jenkins.
>RP: Dan Quisenberry
>
>Right now, I feel like the VHOF is short at 3B and at RP, so Evans and
>Quiz will be getting votes from me. I think Kiner, Vance, and Perry
>will also find their way onto my ballot.
>
>Quiz-Kiner-Vance-Evans-Perry, maybe?
>
>Pitchers in MLB history with a better ERA+ than Dan Quisenberry:
>Pedro Martinez and Lefty Grove. He's tied with Walter Johnson,
>Hoyt Wilhelm, and Smokey Joe Wood at 146.
.
.
Bid McPhee! Over Bobby Grich, I mean. OK, I confess, that's
an extreme position to take; Grich's career 125 OPS+ is *quite*
competitive.
I've been voting for Allen the last couple of elections, as my
third-base candidate; he played over 600 games there. I might
convince myself Torre deserves the same consideration.
Are you *sure* you want Cedeno (17 years of 123 OPS+) over Wynn
(15, 128)? The latter was in a steep dive his last few years,
true ...
Those who favor longevity can choose Billy Williams over Kiner.
Who *are* the alternatives in right to Pete Rose? King Kelly,
Chuck Klein, Sam Thompson, Sam Crawford, ... Kelly's the only
one I can recall inspiring much of our voting interest.
I like the idea of Quisenberry as a top-flight reliever.
Tenace over Simmons seems to me like a strain.
--
Cameron Laird <cla...@phaseit.net>
Business: http://www.Phaseit.net
Gerry Myerson
mas...@valhalla.no.spam.com (Douglas T. (Doug) Massey ) wrote:
> Here's my guess at the most qualified candidates at each position:
>
> 1B: Dick Allen
Better qualified than Keith Hernandez? Better hitter, to be sure,
but shorter career, and Hernandez was top-of-the-line at defense.
George Sisler also could be seen as a challenge to Allen.
> 2B: Bobby Grich (I still think Bill Mazeroski, but no one else does)
Grich, Mazeroski better than Frisch?
> SP: Dazzy Vance, Gaylord Perry, Robin Roberts, and Fergie Jenkins.
Is it clear they're all better than Ted Lyons?
> Right now, I feel like the VHOF is short at 3B and at RP,
Of course, there may be a good reason for that....
> Pitchers in MLB history with a better ERA+ than Dan Quisenberry:
> Pedro Martinez and Lefty Grove. He's tied with Walter Johnson,
> Hoyt Wilhelm, and Smokey Joe Wood at 146.
Pitchers in MLB with more innings pitched than Dan Quisenberry:
Nick Altrock, Doc Ayers, Bill Bailey, Fred Beebe, George Bell,
Joe Benz, Bill Bernhard, Bernie Boland, Buster Brown, Nixey
Callahan, Bill Carrick, Larry Cheney, Andy Coakley, Ray Collins,
etc., etc., etc., etc., ....
--
Gerry Myerson (ge...@maths.mq.edi.ai) (i -> u for email)
Douglas T. (Doug) Massey
Eh, McPhee doesn't do anything for me.
> I've been voting for Allen the last couple of elections, as my
> third-base candidate; he played over 600 games there. I might
> convince myself Torre deserves the same consideration.
Yeah, I was voting for Allen too.
> Are you *sure* you want Cedeno (17 years of 123 OPS+) over Wynn
> (15, 128)? The latter was in a steep dive his last few years,
> true ...
I actually have Wynn over Cedeno, but no one is voting or campaigning
for him. I don't like to waste votes. Same with Max, Cupid Childs,
John McGraw, Hughie Jennings, Pete Browning, Ted Lyons, Tommy
Bridges, and Stan Coveleski. They deserve consideration, but aren't
getting any. I think the anti-'45-and-'46 season is overplayed and
Hal Newhouser gets a bum rap.
> Those who favor longevity can choose Billy Williams over Kiner.
Yep. I'd throw Al Simmons in there as well, but I'm more of a peak
guy for the VHOF.
> Who *are* the alternatives in right to Pete Rose? King Kelly,
> Chuck Klein, Sam Thompson, Sam Crawford, ... Kelly's the only
> one I can recall inspiring much of our voting interest.
We have plenty of right fielders (he played more in LF, though, in
fact his LF-RF-1B-2B-3B splits are 671-594-939-628-634 -- take your
pick!). Rose isn't in the top ten at any position, though.
> I like the idea of Quisenberry as a top-flight reliever.
So do I. I'd like to see Hoyt, Quiz, Goose, and Eck make the VHOF,
but that's just me.
> Tenace over Simmons seems to me like a strain.
I'm not voting for either. We've got the top catchers already.
Cameron Laird
Gerry Myerson <ge...@maths.mq.edi.ai.i2u4email> wrote:
.
.
.
>> 2B: Bobby Grich (I still think Bill Mazeroski, but no one else does)
>
>Grich, Mazeroski better than Frisch?
>
>> SP: Dazzy Vance, Gaylord Perry, Robin Roberts, and Fergie Jenkins.
>
>Is it clear they're all better than Ted Lyons?
.
.
No. Jenkins beats Roberts. Lyons is better than Jenkins, except
for the former's high unearned run totals; I'm still not sure what
I think of those. Perry gives everything Lyons had, without the
unearned runs, but also has baggage in regard to personal character.
Vance's career was simply weird, and only appeals to some (I'm among
them).
Grich's hitting record is quite remarkable, and still hugely under-
appreciated. I can't make Frisch match up to him at all. Mazeroski
(and my own preference for McPhee) is (are) best understood as aesthetic
position(s) which recognize his (their) singular fielding.
Dvd Avins
news:c0r5ul$hag$1...@news.btv.ibm.com...
Here's the Pitchers' WAR for all the pitchers Doug listed, either as an
also-ran in the 1983 ballot, or as newly eligible for the 1991 ballot.
(Doug, if you tell me who else received any votes at all, I'll run the
numbers for them, as well.) I'll also include anyone not mentioned who is
one of the top-10 totals among eligible candidates. [As I was compiling
this, Doug posted something praising Bridges, Coveleski, and Newhouser, so
I'll include them, too.]
Pitcher's WAR is a measure of how many extra games a pitcher's team could
expect to win because that pitcher, rather than a scrub, was in the game. It
probably over-values old-timers as opposed to more recent players,
especially over-valuing old-timers whose teams fielded well. And when I say
"old-timers", that may give too simple a picture. The relative importance of
fielding has been gradually decreasing throughout baseball history. So there
is no one division between old times on the one hand and modern on the
other. Tony Mullane is further over-valued somewhat, because he played in a
weak league. By the same logic, those who played from 1892-1900 are probably
hurt by the fact that there were fewer major league teams, so the level of
competition can be assumed to have been higher than in surrounding decades.
Things not taken into account here include peak value, pitchers' batting,
and the strategic value of having a reliever available for critical
situations.. For an explanation the method behind Pitchers' WAR, ask me or
google my past posts.
The table shows the pitcher's name (NAME), Pitchers' WAR (WAR), and, for
anyone in the top 64 all time, their rank both all-time (AT) and among those
eligible for the 1990 ballot (90). 32 of the top 64 are eligible in this
ballot.
AT 90 WAR NAME
13 1 106 Gaylord Perry
23 2 92 Pud Galvin
25 3 92 Tony Mullane
29 4 86 Jim McCormick
30 5 86 Al Spalding
31 6 86 Mickey Welch
32 7 85 Ferguson Jenkins
33 8 85 Eppa Rixey
34 9 85 Red Faber
36 10 84 Ted Lyons
37 11 84 Robin Roberts
40 12 81 Don Sutton
43 15 80 Tommy John
47 16 76 Hal Newhouser
48 17 74 Stan Coveleski
58 26 69 Dazzy Vance
62 30 67 Jim Kaat
64 32 67 Tommy Bridges
63 Jerry Koosman
51 Ron Guidry
41 Jerry Reuss
38 Kent Tekulve
35 Rollie Fingers
34 Joe Niekro
33 Dan Quisenberry
30 Gene Garber
29 Tug McGraw
29 Bruce Sutter
Note that the top eligible reliever (or at least the top one mentioned) is
Tekulve. Lindy McDaniel, who isn't listed, is at 34. I doubt there are any
others not listed who are higher, but I don't know for sure.
Those who are eligible and among the top-64 all-time, but who did not meet
any of the criteria to be in the table are (in decreasing order of Pitchers'
WAR) Vic Willis, Rube Waddell, Joe McGinnity, Don Drysdale, Bobby Mathews,
Clark Griffith, Eddie Cicotte, Jack Quinn, Silver King, Addie Joss, Red
Ruffing, Jim Bunning, Billy Pierce, and Wilbur Cooper.
Mischa Gelman
Douglas T. (Doug) Massey wrote:
> "He hit .328 in the Negro Leagues with 138 HR (in 3981 AB). He is
> tied for 12th all-time in batting average, trailing VHOF players Gibson,
> Charleston and Lloyd and a bunch of 1B/OF types (Suttles, Jenkins,
> Torriente, Leonard, Stearnes), slow, poor-fielding utility men who
> didn't draw walks (Wilson, Beckwith) and Bullet Joe Rogan (more on him
> later). He's tied with Cool Papa Bell and is only 9 points behind Lloyd,
> the Negro League SS in the VHOF."
>
> Is 3981 AB a short career for a Negro Leaguer?
Not at all. The only guys over 4000 are Jud Wilson, Oscar Charleston,
Cool Papa Bell and Biz Mackey. Wells is 5th, just ahead of Turkey
Stearnes. One quick note - these stats are against top-flight opposition
(not quite major league, but leaving out the games against amateurs and
semipros). If you count other games, you'll wind up with very different
Negro League stats.
> Cronin's was *twice*
> as long. It's effectively six full ML seasons . . . that ain't much.
Wells played from 1924-48. He was a very durable guy. Of course if
baseball had been integrated he would have retired sooner and been in
the minors the first couple years probably - I think career length
compares well with Cronin.
> "He is 5th all-time in home runs, trailing VHOF members Gibson and
> Charleston and 1B/OF Suttles and OF Torriente. He's 44 above Wilson, who
> is 6th. So we're talking about a shortstop who has more career HR than
> Buck Leonard, who almost made the VHOF as a 1B and Hall of Fame sluggers
> like Turkey Stearnes."
>
> What does the Negro League all-time HR list look like? Gibson at 900
> or so in first, then all the way down to 138 for fifth place?
From Holway's Complete Book of Baseball's Negro Leagues (my source,
though it is typo-ridden - it unfortunately is the best we have to date)
Mule Suttles 237
Josh Gibson 224
Turkey Stearnes 197
Oscar Charleston 169
Willie Wells 138
Jud Wilson 94
Edgar Wesley 85
John Beckwith 80
Buck Leonard 79
Frog Redus 79
Cool Papa Bell 73
Martin Dihigo 69
Tubby Scales 68
Bullet Joe Rogan 62
Rap Dixon 54
That's the top 15.
> " So - his offensive stats are pretty similar to near-VHOF-member Buck
> Leonard while playing a much more valuable position and are better than
> regular Hall of Famers Turkey Stearnes, Ray Dandridge, Judy Johnson (who
> shouldn't be in the Hall)...well just about any Negro Leaguer other than
> Charleston or Gibson. He played forever. He stole bases. He was a solid
> defensive player who lasted at shortstop for over two decades. He was a
> key cog on champion teams. He hit black pitchers. He hit white pitchers.
> He hit Latino pitchers. He hit for contact. He hit for power. What more
> do we want?"
>
> A better idea about how that performance would translate to playing
> in the major leagues, I guess.
Which unfortunately is hard to predict. I don't know of any MLEs for
Negro Leaguers - it would be especially difficult to figure out park
factors looking back.
> Smokey Joe Williams, Satchel Paige, Josh Gibson, John Lloyd Henry,
> and Oscar Charleston are the five Negro League representative in the
> VHOF right now, about one per decade for the first five decades of
> the 20th century. About 27 MLB players got in from the same time frame.
> I guess I'm not convinced that this ratio is out of whack, personally.
Another way to look at it - in the first 5 decades we have 5 Negro
Leaguers, while since then we have the following guys who would have
been NLers if not for integration: Gibson, Marichal, McCovey, Morgan,
Carew, Banks, Stargell, Mays, Clemente, Aaron, F. Robinson, R. Jackson.
I'm not counting Campy and Jackie Robinson, who started out in the Negro
Leaguers (by the time Mays, Banks and Aaron got there it was a
watered-down system). That's 12 players from the past 5 decades compared
to 5 before them - or 5 players from the last decade of the dying Negro
Leagues, as opposed to 5 from the prior 45 years. I don't think it's a
stretch to say there might be another Negro Leaguer or two deserving entry.
--
Growth for the sake of growth is the ideology of the cancer cell
-- Edward Abbey
Dvd Avins
I missed Vida Blue
<snip>
51 Vida Blue
> 51 Ron Guidry
> 41 Jerry Reuss
> 38 Kent Tekulve
> 35 Rollie Fingers
> 34 Joe Niekro
> 33 Dan Quisenberry
> 30 Gene Garber
> 29 Tug McGraw
> 29 Bruce Sutter
Gerry Myerson
cla...@lairds.com (Cameron Laird) wrote:
> In article <gerry-BC03E3....@sunb.ocs.mq.edu.au>,
> Gerry Myerson <ge...@maths.mq.edi.ai.i2u4email> wrote:
> .
> .
> .
> >> 2B: Bobby Grich (I still think Bill Mazeroski, but no one else does)
> >
> >Grich, Mazeroski better than Frisch?
> >
> >> SP: Dazzy Vance, Gaylord Perry, Robin Roberts, and Fergie Jenkins.
> >
> >Is it clear they're all better than Ted Lyons?
> .
> .
> .
> No. Jenkins beats Roberts. Lyons is better than Jenkins, except
> for the former's high unearned run totals; I'm still not sure what
> I think of those. Perry gives everything Lyons had, without the
> unearned runs, but also has baggage in regard to personal character.
> Vance's career was simply weird, and only appeals to some (I'm among
> them).
Here are a few numbers:
Pitcher IP ERA+ All seasons with ERA+ of 120+
Jenkins 4500 115 143 133 127 127 126 124 123
Roberts 4688 113 152 141 136 136 135 127 124 123 123 122 121
Lyons 4161 118 171 153 143 137 133 132 128 128 122
Perry 5350 117 168 144 140 125 124 123 123 122 122 121
Vance 2966 125 191 189 173 146
Perry pitched as well as Jenkins-Roberts-Lyons, and longer,
so I see him as the #1 pitcher under consideration. It's not
at all clear to me that Lyons beats Jenkins beats Roberts,
I don't see a clinching argument for any particular point of
view on that one. Vance, as you say, had a weird career.
> Grich's hitting record is quite remarkable, and still hugely under-
> appreciated. I can't make Frisch match up to him at all.
Player PA OPS+ All seasons with OPS+ of 120+
Frisch 10100 111 132 131 129 126
Grich 8220 125 164 144 142 138 135 130 127 125 124
Grich was certainly a better hitter, but Frisch has an extra 1900
plate appearances - that's three seasons Frisch was playing and
Grich wasn't. That's the argument for Frisch, but I guess Grich
was better when you factor in defense.
Douglas T. (Doug) Massey
I had Vance as my #1 last election. I'm a peak-first-career-second
kind of voter and Vance clearly has the best peak (and the best ERA+
overally), but only 55-70% the IP of the other four. 'Course, Vance
was *31* before he played his first MLB season. He pitched great in
the minor leagues but concerns about injuries kept him out of the bigs.
When someone finally got the bright idea to pitch him on four days
rest instead of three, Brooklyn bought him and Vance turned into a
strikeout machine -- leading the league every year from 1922-1927.
It's as if Mike Mussina had been kept in the minor leagues by the
Orioles and only made his debut after the trade to the Yankees.
If Vance has a management chain with a dozen neurons combined, he
retires with 300+ wins and gets into the VHOF fifty years ago.
Douglas T. (Doug) Massey
"Dvd Avins" <dvdNOav...@pobox.com> writes:
> "Douglas T. (Doug) Massey " <mas...@valhalla.btv.ibm.com> wrote in message
> news:c0r5ul$hag$1...@news.btv.ibm.com...
>
> Here's the Pitchers' WAR for all the pitchers Doug listed, either as an
> also-ran in the 1983 ballot, or as newly eligible for the 1991 ballot.
> (Doug, if you tell me who else received any votes at all, I'll run the
> numbers for them, as well.) I'll also include anyone not mentioned who is
> one of the top-10 totals among eligible candidates. [As I was compiling
> this, Doug posted something praising Bridges, Coveleski, and Newhouser, so
> I'll include them, too.]
Also receiving votes were Addie Joss, Rube Waddell, and Luis Tiant.
Right; relievers have no chance on this list because they have limited
IP. A list like this can greatly underestimate their value in terms of
wins, of course, since the relievers are used in high-leverage situations
(whereas many of the innings pitched by starters are during blowouts
where good vs. bad pitching will make little difference).
Tekulve, Fingers, and Quisenberry are all pretty close. You could take
Fingers if you like the mustache, Quiz if you like the submarine delivery,
or Tekulve if . . . if . . . if you like ugly people, I guess. ;-)
> Those who are eligible and among the top-64 all-time, but who did not meet
> any of the criteria to be in the table are (in decreasing order of Pitchers'
> WAR) Vic Willis, Rube Waddell, Joe McGinnity, Don Drysdale, Bobby Mathews,
> Clark Griffith, Eddie Cicotte, Jack Quinn, Silver King, Addie Joss, Red
> Ruffing, Jim Bunning, Billy Pierce, and Wilbur Cooper.
I just don't think there's a case to be made for any of these guys,
except perhaps Joss (if you're an all-peak-no-longevity voter).
Dvd Avins
news:c0t734$obm$2...@news.btv.ibm.com...
> In article <iJcYb.30398$M8.1...@nwrdny02.gnilink.net>,
> "Dvd Avins" <dvdNOav...@pobox.com> writes:
> > "Douglas T. (Doug) Massey " <mas...@valhalla.btv.ibm.com> wrote in
message
> > news:c0r5ul$hag$1...@news.btv.ibm.com...
updated to include all who received votes in 1983, or met previously
described criteria
AT 90 WAR NAME
13 1 106 Gaylord Perry
23 2 92 Pud Galvin
25 3 92 Tony Mullane
29 4 86 Jim McCormick
30 5 86 Al Spalding
31 6 86 Mickey Welch
32 7 85 Ferguson Jenkins
33 8 85 Eppa Rixey
34 9 85 Red Faber
36 10 84 Ted Lyons
37 11 84 Robin Roberts
40 12 81 Don Sutton
42 14 80 Rube Waddell
43 15 80 Tommy John
47 16 76 Hal Newhouser
48 17 74 Stan Coveleski
57 25 69 Addie Joss
58 26 69 Dazzy Vance
62 30 67 Jim Kaat
64 32 67 Tommy Bridges
64 Luis Tiant
63 Jerry Koosman
51 Ron Guidry
41 Jerry Reuss
38 Kent Tekulve
35 Rollie Fingers
34 Joe Niekro
33 Dan Quisenberry
30 Gene Garber
29 Tug McGraw
29 Bruce Sutter
Dvd Avins
news:c0t734$obm$2...@news.btv.ibm.com...
> "Dvd Avins" <dvdNOav...@pobox.com> writes:
> > "Douglas T. (Doug) Massey " <mas...@valhalla.btv.ibm.com> wrote in
message
> > news:c0r5ul$hag$1...@news.btv.ibm.com...
<snip>
I said in my first post that this didn't take into account the strategic
value of spotting relievers. But it's not true that relievers don't have a
chance. The only clearly deserving HOFer, Wilhelm, had 70 Pitchers' WAR. So
how much of a multiplier do you think relievers should get? I think 2.0 is
at the upper edge of plausibility.
A multiplier of 2.0 would indicate that Wilhelm, once era was takn into
account, was the 3rd most valuable pitcher ever -- possibly on a par with
the top two. I don't think anyone would maintain that. The problem is that
relievers are more prominent than they are valuable. And for that reason,
maybe it makes sense to honor them beyond their simple value in net games
won. But they also tend to have short careers. So to consider them equal to
starters, you've generally got to both give them the catchers' short-career
excuse *and* a prominence-bonus.
> Tekulve, Fingers, and Quisenberry are all pretty close. You could take
> Fingers if you like the mustache, Quiz if you like the submarine delivery,
> or Tekulve if . . . if . . . if you like ugly people, I guess. ;-)
Teke's delivery was very similar to Quisenberry's.
Here's all relievers I can find with Pitchers' WAR of at least 27.
70 Hoyt Wilhelm
43 Goose Gossage
38 Kent Tekulve
36 John Franco
35 Rollie Fingers
34 Lindy McDaniel
34 Lee Smith
34 Sparky Lyle
33 John Hiller
33 Dan Quisenberry
30 Jesse Orosco
30 Gene Garber
29 Tug McGraw
29 Bruce Sutter
29 Doug Jones
29 Clay Carroll
28 Mike Marshall
27 Mariano Rivera
27 Tom Henke
Rivera looks like a good bet to move into the top 5.
Douglas T. (Doug) Massey
"Dvd Avins" <dvdNOav...@pobox.com> writes:
>
> I said in my first post that this didn't take into account the strategic
> value of spotting relievers. But it's not true that relievers don't have a
> chance. The only clearly deserving HOFer, Wilhelm, had 70 Pitchers' WAR.
Wilhelm is a sort of transitional reliever, between the old days where
such a thing didn't exist and the new days where they rarely get more than
100 IP per season. Hoyt averaged better than 2 IP per appearance; the
closer you get to 2004 the closer the averages get to 1 IP per appearance.
Wilhelm was also the best pitcher -- from a rate standpoint -- of the
bunch and clearly deserves to get in the Hall. But he doesn't set the
lower bar for admission of relievers, in my view.
> So
> how much of a multiplier do you think relievers should get? I think 2.0 is
> at the upper edge of plausibility.
I don't think it's as simple as a multiplier. If you had a reliever
who typically pitched the last three innings of a game, then his multiplier
would be lower than that of a reliever who typically pitched the last
inning of a 1-run game (because the second and third inning of the
three-inning guy would often be devalued by one team or the other
blowing the game open, whereas every out the one-inning guy gets is in
a crucial spot from a team-wins perspective). Maybe the multiplier is
something like MAX(1.0, (4.0-IP/G)) -- 2.8 for Goose Gossage, 1.9 for
Hoyt Wilhelm, 2.6 for Quiz, 2.6 for Tekulve, 2.9 for John Franco. Who
knows.
> A multiplier of 2.0 would indicate that Wilhelm, once era was takn into
> account, was the 3rd most valuable pitcher ever -- possibly on a par with
> the top two. I don't think anyone would maintain that.
He was *awfully* good though. I suspect that his WAR is overestimated
a bit, though, if it doesn't take his unearned runs from passed balls
and wild pitches off that wicked knuckler into account. He had a
seventh-best BA-against in history -- better than guys like Walter Johnson,
Cy Young, and Lefty Grove. 'Course, #6 is Andy Messersmith, somehow . . .
(he had the "benefit" of retiring at age 33, eliminating that career
tail that hurts your averages -- something you can't say about Wilhelm!).
> The problem is that
> relievers are more prominent than they are valuable. And for that reason,
> maybe it makes sense to honor them beyond their simple value in net games
> won. But they also tend to have short careers. So to consider them equal to
> starters, you've generally got to both give them the catchers' short-career
> excuse *and* a prominence-bonus.
>
>> Tekulve, Fingers, and Quisenberry are all pretty close. You could take
>> Fingers if you like the mustache, Quiz if you like the submarine delivery,
>> or Tekulve if . . . if . . . if you like ugly people, I guess. ;-)
>
> Teke's delivery was very similar to Quisenberry's.
Yeah, but that face underneath those ugly boxy Pirate caps is just
too much for me to deal with.
> Here's all relievers I can find with Pitchers' WAR of at least 27.
>
> 70 Hoyt Wilhelm
> 43 Goose Gossage
> 38 Kent Tekulve
> 36 John Franco
> 35 Rollie Fingers
> 34 Lindy McDaniel
> 34 Lee Smith
> 34 Sparky Lyle
> 33 John Hiller
> 33 Dan Quisenberry
> 30 Jesse Orosco
> 30 Gene Garber
> 29 Tug McGraw
> 29 Bruce Sutter
> 29 Doug Jones
> 29 Clay Carroll
> 28 Mike Marshall
> 27 Mariano Rivera
> 27 Tom Henke
>
> Rivera looks like a good bet to move into the top 5.
I would think so, and his multiplier is currently 2.7.
Where's Eckersley? His 3200+ IP has to help a lot, but it would keep
his multiplier at 1.0. Twelve years as a A- or B+ starter (111 ERA+)
followed by twelve years as the second- or third-best reliever ever.
Roger Moore
>He pitched great in
>the minor leagues but concerns about injuries kept him out of the bigs.
>When someone finally got the bright idea to pitch him on four days
>rest instead of three, Brooklyn bought him and Vance turned into a
>strikeout machine -- leading the league every year from 1922-1927.
This is the commonly told version of events, but it's apparently not
entirely correct. For one thing, Vance did get at least a brief tryout
in the majors before his big breakthrough; he pitched poorly in 9
appearances in 1915 and 2 more in 1918. More importantly, it seems that
his problem wasn't some abstract fear of injuries, but rather an actual
long-term injury problem. Quoting Bill James from the NHBA:
He could not sustain effectiveness for any period of time, up to age 30,
because of a chronic sore arm. At New Orleans in 1920, Dazzy banged his
arm on the table in the middle of a poker game, and broke something off.
What had been a chronic pain became a source of sharp, unbearable pain,
necessitating emergency surgery by a doctor Vance didn't know from Adam.
No one knows exactly what the doctor did; my guess is that he took bone
chips and debris out of the elbow. In any case, the chronic pain
diappeared, and Vance was a hard-throwing, hard-drinking medical miracle
for the next fifteen years.
The bit about him being pitched comparatively lightly also seems to be
incorrect. While he never racked up league leading totals in starts or
innings, he was in the top 10 in the league 6 and 7 times, respectively,
and twice led the league in complete games. He does seem to have seen
less use in relief than most of his contemporaries, though; from 1922 to
1932, he was never relieved more than 6 times per season, with an average
of just under 3.
--
Roger Moore | Master of Meaningless Trivia | (r...@alumni.caltech.edu)
I believe there are more instances of the abridgement of freedom of the
people by gradual and silent encroachments by those in power than by
violent and sudden usurpations. -- James Madison
Dvd Avins
> In article <2jqYb.52813$IF1....@nwrdny03.gnilink.net>,
> "Dvd Avins" <dvdNOav...@pobox.com> writes:
<snip>
> > Here's all relievers I can find with Pitchers' WAR of at least 27.
> >
> > 70 Hoyt Wilhelm
> > 43 Goose Gossage
> > 38 Kent Tekulve
> > 36 John Franco
> > 35 Rollie Fingers
> > 34 Lindy McDaniel
> > 34 Lee Smith
> > 34 Sparky Lyle
> > 33 John Hiller
> > 33 Dan Quisenberry
> > 30 Jesse Orosco
> > 30 Gene Garber
> > 29 Tug McGraw
> > 29 Bruce Sutter
> > 29 Doug Jones
> > 29 Clay Carroll
> > 28 Mike Marshall
> > 27 Mariano Rivera
> > 27 Tom Henke
<snip>
> Where's Eckersley? His 3200+ IP has to help a lot, but it would keep
> his multiplier at 1.0. Twelve years as a A- or B+ starter (111 ERA+)
> followed by twelve years as the second- or third-best reliever ever.
23 as a reliever, another 40 as a starter.
Douglas T. (Doug) Massey
r...@alumnae.caltech.edu (Roger Moore) writes:
> mas...@valhalla.no.spam.com (Douglas T. (Doug) Massey ) writes:
>
>>He pitched great in
>>the minor leagues but concerns about injuries kept him out of the bigs.
>>When someone finally got the bright idea to pitch him on four days
>>rest instead of three, Brooklyn bought him and Vance turned into a
>>strikeout machine -- leading the league every year from 1922-1927.
>
> This is the commonly told version of events, but it's apparently not
> entirely correct. For one thing, Vance did get at least a brief tryout
> in the majors before his big breakthrough; he pitched poorly in 9
> appearances in 1915 and 2 more in 1918.
True, but only a foolish GM would attach that level of significance
to 35 IP, over years and years of dominance in the minors.
> More importantly, it seems that
> his problem wasn't some abstract fear of injuries, but rather an actual
> long-term injury problem.
Oh, right -- I wasn't trying to deceive. When I said "concerns about
injuries", I means real concerns about real injuries, primarily his
chronic sore arm.
> The bit about him being pitched comparatively lightly also seems to be
> incorrect. While he never racked up league leading totals in starts or
> innings, he was in the top 10 in the league 6 and 7 times, respectively,
> and twice led the league in complete games.
But they clearly were starting him less often -- he never had more than
36 starts in a 154-game season and averaged 32 in his injury-free seasons
('22-'31, except for '29). That's pretty clearly a once-every-five-games
kind of pace.
> He does seem to have seen
> less use in relief than most of his contemporaries, though; from 1922 to
> 1932, he was never relieved more than 6 times per season, with an average
> of just under 3.
That's a good point, although I have no idea how relevant it might be. :-)
I've kind of wondered what would happen if modern teams would use their
star relievers for a couple of batters in between starts (instead of
"throwing on the side"). I have no idea.
Patrick Schroeder
> In article <c0r5ul$hag$1...@news.btv.ibm.com>,
> mas...@valhalla.btv.ibm.com (Douglas T. (Doug) Massey ) writes:
> The first priority would be to narrow this list now, I think.
> Here's my guess at the most qualified candidates at each position:
>
> 1B: Dick Allen
Allen over George Sisler until Eddie Murray in 98.
> 2B: Bobby Grich (I still think Bill Mazeroski, but no one else does)
Don't forget Ross Barnes.
> 3B: Darrell Evans
I'd take John McGraw & Brooks Robinson first.
> SS: Joe Cronin, still.
Only Willie Wells is close to him.
> C: Gene Tenace, Joe Torre, or Ted Simmons -- take your pick.
I'll take Torre over Simmons.
> LF: Ralph Kiner
Shoeless Joe, anyone?
> CF: Cesar Cedeno
Pete Browning or Hack Wilson.
> RF: meh . .
Sam Thompson & King Kelly.
And where do you put Pete Rose? 1327 games in the OF (LF & RF),
939 at 1B, 634 at 3B, and 628 at 2B.
> SP: Dazzy Vance, Gaylord Perry, Robin Roberts, and Fergie Jenkins.
Gaylord Perry, Don Sutton, Al Spalding, Robin Roberts, Fergie Jenkins,
Tommy John, Ron Guidry, Jim Kaat & Luis Tiant are all worthy.
No one better will be eligible until 2005 (or maybe Cone in 2004).
> RP: Dan Quisenberry
Or Bruce Sutter, Rollie Fingers, or Sparky Lyle.
> Right now, I feel like the VHOF is short at 3B and at RP, so Evans and
> Quiz will be getting votes from me. I think Kiner, Vance, and Perry
> will also find their way onto my ballot.
Ralph Kiner
Bruce Sutter
Dick Allen
Gaylord Perry
Pete Rose
Pat S.
David Craven
(Thank goodness its 1991 and we know that Pete Rose has bet on Baseball.
Had this been 1987, I would have felt compelled to vote for him).
1. Robinson, Brooks. I agree with those who argue that 3rd basemen are
underrepresented, but I disagree with those who do not believe that Robinson
is the most qualified 3rd baseman not in the HOF. Its not just a "stats"
based argument, but also based on his "reputation" at the time that he
played as well as my own unreliable eyes as well. His peers, while he was
playing, felt he was one of the best in the history of the game, and
certainly the best playing. Since I think Santo is an EASY HOF vote, and
since I think Robinson is better than Santo, I would be a hypocrite not to
continue to keep him number one on the ballot with a bullet.
2. Lou Brock. I read the arguments advanced in favor of Lou Brock in
conjunction with the last ballot and agree that I made a mistake in
overlooking Mr. Brock. As such, I feel compelled to vote for him this time.
3. Branch Rickey. His contributions as a General Manager, et al, were so
significant that any Hall of Fame which does not contain Branch Rickey is so
fatally flawed as to be invalid.
4. Casey Stengal. As with Rickey, he belongs in the Hall of Fame for his
contributions as a manager.
5. Red Barber. A broadcaster needs also to be in the VHOF as
Broadcasting is what really made professional baseball. And Barber, from
his catbird's seat, was the epitome of a baseball broadcaster. (Were this
latter in the 1990's, Harry C. would be hear instead...)
Dale J. Stephenson
non-HOFers, unless in the top 10 of holdover voting.
Key to stats:
Peak -- total offensive wins (OW) for the best five years of the player
years are not necessarily consecutive.
Outside -- total offensive wins outside the best five years
Decade -- decade in which most of the player's peak falls.
Years -- Games played, divided by most common games/team for each year.
@Pos -- percent of games played at this position
FR -- Career fielding runs above average, as estimated by Baseball
Prospectus (historical adjustment not applied). SB/CS against
catchers not available before 1978.
Hall -- Hall of Fame status. * indicates VHOFer
Other -- % of games played at other positions. Less than 20% not listed.
OW -- Offensive Wins, (BR/A + SBR) / R/W.
R/W -- Runs per win, calculated by (4 * League Runs) / (1.83 * League Games)
BR/A -- park adjusted linear weight batting runs, calculated by TB VII.
SBR -- stolen base runs. (SB*0.22 - CS*0.35). Not calculated for years
without caught stealing totals.
Peaks for Prominent Catchers
Name Peak Decade Outside Years @Pos FR Hall Other
Joe Torre 21.2 60s 12.5 13.7 41% -8 36% 1b, 23% 3b
Johnny Bench 18.7 70s 10.2 13.5 81% 59 *
Gene Tenace 16.9 70s 11.4 9.8 57% -19 40% 1b
Ted Simmons 16.5 70s 6.0 15.5 72% -86
Roy Campanella 15.3 50s -1.7 7.9 97% 48 *
Yogi Berra 14.3 50s 10.7 13.7 80% 57 *
Bill Dickey 14.2 30s 8.5 11.6 95% 102 *
Bill Freehan 13.8 60s -2.1 11.0 89% 87
Mickey Cochrane 13.7 30s 7.5 9.6 98% -2 *
Roger Bresnahan 13.7 1900s 6.8 9.6 67% -10
Mickey Tettleton 13.1 90s 2.7 9.5 59% -52 24% dh
Gabby Hartnett 13.0 30s 9.6 12.9 90% 130 *
Ernie Lombardi 12.5 40s 7.9 12.0 83% -150
Thurman Munson 10.8 70s 1.3 8.8 90% 18
Elston Howard 10.8 60s -6.4 10.1 71% 83
Buck Ewing 10.2 1880s 5.6 11.1 48% 161 *
Dick Dietz 10.1 70s -0.6 4.0 82% -85
Darrell Porter 9.8 70s 1.6 11.2 85% -2
Ed Bailey 6.8 60s -1.0 7.5 88% 17
Sherm Lollar 5.9 50s -1.7 11.3 90% 122
Tim McCarver 5.6 70s -3.5 11.8 73% -54
Manny Sanguillen 5.2 70s -4.8 8.9 77% 7
Ron Hassey 5.0 80s -4.9 7.5 79% -29
Terry Kennedy 4.3 80s -8.0 9.5 92% -7
Del Crandall 3.6 50s -7.5 10.1 94% 172
Rick Ferrell 2.8 30s -4.6 12.2 96% 4
Bob Boone 2.4 70s -20.7 14.2 98% 74
Al Lopez 0.2 30s -13.5 12.7 98% 143 Manager
Ray Schalk 0.1 10s -10.8 11.7 98% 180
If you're just looking for a catcher, I think Simmons is the guy, but
Torre was awfully good.
Key to stats:
FR -- Career fielding runs above average, as estimated by Baseball Prospectus
-- From '88-'96, fielding runs generated from DA substituted.
Peaks for Prominent First Basemen
Name Peak Decade Outside Years @Pos FR Hall Other
Lou Gehrig 42.1 30s 46.2 14.1 99% -53 *
Jimmie Foxx 33.9 30s 31.7 15.0 83% 14 *
Willie McCovey 31.9 60s 28.9 16.1 79% -40 *
Johnny Mize 27.9 30s 23.4 12.2 88% 51 *
Hank Greenberg 25.9 30s 13.9 9.1 82% 49 *
George Sisler 25.5 20s 3.0 13.6 96% 5
Dan Brouthers 24.4 1880s 25.9 13.9 98% -75 *
Orlando Cepeda 23.3 60s 14.6 13.3 79% -16
Boog Powell 22.5 60s 13.0 12.6 72% -111 21% lf
Roger Connor 21.8 1880s 23.5 16.7 88% 105 *
Norm Cash 20.8 60s 18.1 13.0 93% 84
Keith Hernandez 20.6 80s 14.9 13.2 96% 167
Bill Terry 20.5 30s 11.6 11.2 92% 74
Bob Watson 18.4 70s 8.8 11.5 59% -61 31% lf
Cecil Cooper 18.0 80s 2.7 12.0 78% -22
Ted Kluszewski 18.0 50s -0.6 11.1 86% -59
Jim Bottomley 17.7 20s 6.0 12.9 95% -22
John Mayberry 17.7 70s 1.1 10.3 91% -36
Mickey Vernon 17.4 50s 1.0 15.6 97% -4
Frank Chance 17.0 1900s 5.7 8.5 77% 11 * Manager
Cap Anson 16.6 1880s 22.6 24.0 90% 77 *
Andy Thornton 16.5 70s 2.2 9.9 47% 10 47% dh
Darrell Evans 16.2 80s 12.0 16.9 32% 145 54% 3b
Gil Hodges 15.1 50s 4.6 13.4 92% 10
Steve Garvey 14.9 70s 4.3 14.7 88% 64
George Scott 14.1 70s -0.9 12.6 87% 60
Kent Hrbek 13.9 80s 10.0 11.1 92% 39
Joe Adcock 13.9 60s 8.6 12.5 72% 17
Jake Beckley 12.8 1890s 13.2 17.0 100% 69
Bill White 11.2 60s 2.9 10.5 88% 38
George Kelly 8.5 20s -3.2 10.6 85% 78
Billy Buckner 7.4 80s -7.4 15.8 62% 52
Chris Chambliss 6.7 70s 1.2 13.7 90% 39
Allen's on the third base list, he'd slot just behind McCovey. Evans usually
gets support at third base, where he spent more of his career and stacks up
much better. For straight-up first basemen, you've got Sisler with the
highest peak, Cash for career offense, and maybe Hernandez for all-around
value. Plus Negro League HOFer Buck Leonard is still outside.
Key to stats:
FR -- Career fielding runs, as estimated by Total Baseball VII.
-- From '88-'96, fielding runs generated from DA substituted.
Peaks for Prominent Second Basemen
Name Peak Decade Outside Years @Pos FR Hall Other
Rogers Hornsby 41.5 20s 46.4 14.9 69% -91 *
Joe Morgan 33.6 70s 30.3 16.6 95% -206 *
Nap Lajoie 32.2 1900s 27.4 16.6 82% 366 *
Eddie Collins 29.7 10s 39.6 18.6 94% 41 *
Rod Carew 25.9 70s 19.9 15.5 46% -85 * 48% 1b
Jackie Robinson 20.2 50s 5.6 9.0 54% 49 *
Char. Gehringer 18.3 30s 11.9 15.1 95% 33 *
Bobby Grich 16.1 70s 11.8 12.7 88% 80
Tony Lazzeri 14.9 20s 5.3 11.3 84% -119
Billy Herman 12.8 30s 1.5 12.5 94% 71
Frankie Frisch 12.6 20s 2.4 15.0 76% 148
Davey Lopes 11.8 70s 5.1 11.4 78% -201
Bobby Doerr 11.5 40s 1.4 12.1 99% 181
Johnny Evers 11.2 1900s -3.0 11.7 97% 53
Willie Randolph 10.7 80s 2.4 13.9 98% 24
Pete Runnels 10.1 60s -3.3 11.5 36% -78 36% 1b, 26% ss
Miller Huggins 9.2 10s 2.9 10.3 96% 77 Manager
Davey Johnson 7.7 70s -0.6 8.9 83% 10
Bobby Avila 7.5 50s -3.7 8.4 90% -64
Nellie Fox 6.1 50s -14.5 15.2 97% 42
Bid McPhee 5.9 1880s 4.5 16.6 100% 318
Junior Gilliam 5.9 60s -9.8 12.5 53% -43 39% 3b
Red Schoendiest 5.9 50s -14.5 14.4 83% 88
Phil Garner 5.0 70s -4.4 11.7 52% 30 45% 3b
Johnny Ray 3.5 80s -3.0 8.4 94% 5
Johnny Temple 3.2 50s -6.5 9.1 92% -183
Tony Taylor 1.2 60s -13.4 13.7 68% -41
Cookie Rojas 1.0 70s -18.2 11.2 79% -60
Frank White 0.6 80s -18.1 14.6 93% 16
Glen Hubbard -1.3 80s -8.1 8.6 98% 229
Julian Javier -2.1 60s -15.7 10.1 96% -68
Bill Mazeroski -2.7 60s -16.9 13.6 97% 362
Glenn Beckert -3.0 60s -10.5 8.1 94% -7
Bobby Richardson -6.6 60s -12.7 8.9 95% -11
Bobby Grich looks like the class of these guys.
Peaks for Prominent Thirdbasemen
Name Peak Decade Outside Years @Pos FR Hall Other
Dick Allen 31.4 60s 24.3 10.8 37% -62 46% 1b
Eddie Mathews 29.7 50s 28.9 15.2 91% -20 *
Harmon Killebrew 28.6 60s 26.2 15.2 32% -123 * 40% 1b
Mike Schmidt 26.2 80s 35.1 15.1 92% 265 *
Ron Santo 22.8 60s 7.8 13.9 95% 138 *
Frank Baker 22.1 10s 6.3 10.5 98% 36 *
Al Rosen 20.7 50s -0.3 6.8 89% -52
Tony Perez 19.8 70s 10.3 17.4 27% -54
Sal Bando 18.5 70s 4.3 12.6 94% -104
Toby Harrah 16.1 70s 3.5 13.6 51% -167 38% ss
John McGraw 15.9 1890s 5.5 7.9 71% -93 * Manager
Bill Madlock 15.6 70s 6.5 11.4 80% -185
Ron Cey 15.4 70s 8.5 13.0 96% 30
Ed Yost 14.0 50s 2.6 13.7 95% -169
Ken Boyer 13.1 60s 3.0 12.9 88% 69
Brooks Robinson 13.0 60s -6.7 18.0 99% 151
Richie Hebner 12.2 70s 5.5 12.0 66% -85 22% 1b
Doug DeCinces 10.9 80s 0.4 10.5 94% 49
Buddy Bell 10.7 80s -1.6 15.1 91% 193
Carney Lansford 10.3 80s 2.7 11.8 92% -179
Bob Horner 9.5 80s 3.3 6.5 67% -50 32% 1b
George Kell 9.4 50s 0.5 11.7 94% -29
Fred Lindstrom 9.3 20s -2.9 9.3 56% 37
Jimmy Collins 9.2 1900s -1.1 11.9 98% 137
Graig Nettles 9.0 70s 3.6 17.0 89% 132
Larry Parrish 8.8 80s -5.1 12.0 54% -62 21% rf, 21% dh
Gil McDougald 8.0 50s -0.1 8.7 38% 42 45% 2b
Pie Traynor 6.8 20s -0.4 12.6 96% 31
Ray Knight 6.4 80s -7.8 9.5 68% -67 23% 1b
Clete Boyer 0.4 60s -12.7 10.7 83% 234
Frank Malzone -0.6 50s -7.5 9.1 95% 47
If you ignore Allen and Evans, you could make a case for Brooks Robinson--
and a half dozen others, at least.
Peaks for Prominent Shortstops
Name Peak Decade Outside Years @Pos FR Hall Other
Honus Wagner 31.9 1900s 39.1 18.5 68% 102 *
Arky Vaughan 22.6 30s 13.5 11.8 82% -59 *
Ernie Banks 21.2 50s 5.4 16.0 45% 4 * 50% 1b
Lou Boudreau 16.6 40s 3.0 10.7 93% 134
Luke Appling 13.6 40s 7.3 15.7 92% 73 *
Hughie Jennings 12.9 1890s -2.7 9.2 70% 147 26% 1b
Joe Cronin 12.3 30s 7.6 13.8 87% 68
George Davis 11.3 1890s 10.2 16.4 58% 256 * 22% 3b
Jim Fregosi 11.1 60s 3.3 11.7 73% -40
Joe Sewell 9.2 20s 0.7 12.4 64% 107 34% 3b
Bill Dahlen 9.1 1890s -0.2 17.0 87% 352 *
Bobby Wallace 9.0 1900s -2.7 16.1 77% 212
Denis Menke 8.2 60s -4.7 9.9 53% -58 26% 3b
Pee-Wee Reese 7.9 40s -5.2 14.1 93% -25
Solly Hemus 7.2 50s 0.3 6.2 49% -38 22% 2b
Dave Bancroft 7.1 20s -7.6 12.6 98% 197
Bert Campaneris 6.6 60s -11.7 14.5 90% -102
Dave Concepcion 5.6 70s -16.8 15.7 88% -44
Roy Smalley 5.5 80s -2.6 10.4 65% 14
Travis Jackson 5.5 20s -4.9 10.8 80% 104
George Wright 5.3 1870s -1.6 9.1 90% 92 Pioneer
Alvin Dark 4.1 50s -7.2 11.9 77% -43
Maury Wills 4.1 60s -10.3 12.1 80% 30
Monte Ward 3.3 1880s -8.9 16.1 45% 136 * 27% 2b, Exec
Dick Groat 3.3 60s -15.6 12.3 97% 28
Phil Rizzuto 3.1 50s -6.6 10.8 99% 86
Joe Tinker 3.1 1900s -10.9 11.9 97% 214
Chris Speier 1.4 70s -14.5 14.2 84% -52
Leo Cardenas 1.3 60s -14.6 12.0 95% -22
Rabbit Maranville 0.6 10s -24.3 17.4 81% 154
Luis Aparicio 0.4 60s -20.2 16.3 99% 51
Rick Burleson 0.2 80s -9.8 8.6 89% 86
Gene Alley -0.6 60s -5.9 7.4 82% 125
Roy McMillan -2.5 50s -25.4 13.4 97% 66
Mark Belanger -3.4 70s -21.6 12.6 96% 167
Larry Bowa -4.4 70s -28.6 14.2 99% -75
Leo Durocher -6.2 30s -19.7 10.6 92% 16 Manager
Don Kessinger -6.6 70s -24.9 12.8 94% 61
I guess Joe Cronin is the favorite here, though I think it's not
certain he was better than Boudreau. Negro League great Willie Wells
looks most compelling to me, since from what's been posted about him
here he compares favorably with anyone on this list not named Honus
Wagner.
Peaks for Prominent Leftfielders
Name Peak Decade Outside Years @Pos FR Hall Other
Ted Williams 46.0 40s 59.5 14.9 87% -33 *
Carl Yastrzemski 30.2 60s 25.1 20.7 58% 149 * 23% 1b
Willie Stargell 28.8 70s 26.6 14.7 52% -51 * 36% 1b
Frank Howard 28.5 60s 13.6 11.7 49% -57 28% rf
Ralph Kiner 27.5 40s 9.8 9.6 89% -2
Ed Delahanty 26.4 1890s 18.0 13.3 57% 56 *
Billy Williams 23.5 60s 19.8 15.4 70% 53
Pete Rose 22.2 70s 18.6 22.3 19% -71 26% 1b
Al Simmons 21.2 20s 11.2 14.4 62% 53 35% cf
Joe Medwick 21.0 30s 11.1 12.9 90% 49
Jesse Burkett 20.9 1890s 20.4 14.6 94% -19 *
George Foster 20.9 70s 4.6 12.5 78% 65
Jose Cruz 19.5 80s 9.6 14.8 60% 111 20% rf
Minnie Minoso 19.6 50s 11.1 11.8 82% 62
Roy White 19.5 70s 6.4 11.6 81% 70
Goose Goslin 19.4 20s 12.7 14.9 85% 62
Greg Luzinski 19.4 70s 9.5 11.5 67% -40 28% dh
Zack Wheat 19.2 20s 16.8 15.9 97% 50
Jim Rice 19.2 70s 9.8 13.2 72% 71 25% dh
Rico Carty 18.4 60s 7.8 10.2 48% 3 39% dh
Roy Sievers 18.1 50s 3.8 12.1 36% 19 47% 1b
Fred Clarke 17.5 1900s 20.1 15.4 98% 58
Joe Kelley 15.5 1890s 10.5 13.1 54% 21
Don Baylor 15.5 70s 9.4 14.4 27% -37 56% dh
Heine Manush 15.5 30s 4.6 13.0 67% -50
Al Oliver 15.3 70s 10.4 14.9 20% 19 35% cf, 31% 1b
Lou Brock 15.3 60s 9.0 16.1 83% 32
Joe Rudi 13.0 70s -4.8 9.7 75% 3
Willie Horton 12.9 60s 5.7 12.5 55% -24 37% dh
Ben Oglivie 12.6 80s 1.8 11.1 63% 44 20% rf
Hank Sauer 12.4 50s 2.6 9.1 74% 22
Tommy Davis 11.8 60s -2.8 12.4 55% -27 23% dh
George Bell 11.3 80s -2.3 10.0 71% -41
John Lowenstein 7.8 80s -3.8 8.7 50% -96
Tom Paciorek 6.6 80s -6.0 8.9 34% -89 20% rf, 28% 1b
Jeffrey Leonard 6.4 80s -4.3 8.9 63% -2
I like Kiner, but I think Billy Williams is more compelling.
Peaks for Prominent Centerfielders
Name Peak Decade Outside Years @Pos FR Hall Other
Mickey Mantle 42.2 50s 53.0 15.3 73% -9 *
Ty Cobb 40.5 10s 73.5 19.9 72% 54 * 23% rf
Willie Mays 33.8 50s 62.0 18.9 94% 180 *
Tris Speaker 33.2 10s 51.2 18.4 96% 248 *
Joe DiMaggio 26.9 40s 23.9 11.3 94% 51 *
Jim Wynn 24.8 70s 9.7 11.9 62% 112
Duke Snider 24.7 50s 14.9 13.8 74% -62 *
Hack Wilson 22.8 20s 6.2 8.8 69% -63
Cesar Cedeno 22.4 70s 9.2 12.6 73% 79
Bobby Murcer 20.7 70s 5.6 11.9 41% -19 44% rf
Larry Doby 19.0 50s 9.6 10.0 87% 3
Edd Roush 18.3 10s 7.6 13.0 89% 23
Billy Hamilton 17.9 1890s 14.5 11.6 62% -6 * 27% lf
Earl Averill 17.6 30s 7.9 10.8 88% -8
Fred Lynn 17.2 70s 10.3 12.4 80% 35
Amos Otis 14.9 70s 5.3 12.6 91% 87
Earle Combs 14.8 20s 6.7 9.4 80% -14
Richie Ashburn 14.6 50s 4.9 14.2 91% 227
Vada Pinson 14.5 60s 4.1 15.4 68% 87 22% rf
Max Carey 13.8 20s 4.9 16.3 66% 197 26% lf
Chet Lemon 12.0 80s 7.3 12.5 74% 118
Jim O'Rourke 11.9 1880s 15.1 20.5 23% -88 39% lf
Hugh Duffy 10.7 1890s 2.9 12.6 39% -9 33% lf, 25% rf
Bobby Thomson 10.6 50s -2.8 11.6 55% 20 29% lf
Willie Davis 9.9 60s -0.5 15.0 92% 137
Dwayne Murphy 9.5 80s 2.5 8.7 87% 102
Dave Henderson 8.1 80s -3.6 8.7 75% 86
Willie Wilson 8.1 80s -5.8 13.6 63% 73 31% lf
Curt Flood 6.1 60s -6.0 11.0 96% 114
Lloyd Waner 4.6 20s -6.3 12.9 83% 76
Sam Jethroe 2.9 50s N/A 2.9 95% 19
Cesar Cedeno, Jim Wynn, or Doby + NL credit?
Peaks for Prominent Rightfielders
Name Peak Decade Outside Years @Pos FR Hall Other
Babe Ruth 50.4 20s 78.9 16.5 45% 5 * 42% lf
Stan Musial 36.3 40s 57.9 19.6 25% -39 * 34% 1b, 31% lf
Hank Aaron 35.7 60s 68.9 20.7 66% 101 *
Frank Robinson 33.1 60s 52.2 17.6 46% 52 * 29% lf
Joe Jackson 32.0 10s 15.6 8.8 42% 23 44% lf
Mel Ott 30.3 30s 48.1 17.7 79% -10 *
Reggie Jackson 28.4 70s 26.2 17.7 69% 8 * 22% dh
Harry Heilmann 27.2 20s 22.3 14.1 71% -48 * 21% 1b
Ken Singleton 24.5 70s 13.0 13.2 63% -52 23% dh
Roberto Clemente 24.3 60s 17.9 15.3 95% 175 *
Elmer Flick 24.0 1900s 14.3 9.9 89% 23
Chuck Klein 23.7 30s 5.4 11.4 74% 16
Al Kaline 23.2 60s 30.5 16.3 72% 103 *
Sam Crawford 22.7 1900s 31.6 16.6 67% -48 *
Paul Waner 22.5 30s 23.5 16.6 89% 40 *
Rusty Staub 21.7 70s 16.4 18.4 54% 55
Rocky Colavito 21.1 60s 9.8 11.6 70% 66 28% lf
Dave Parker 21.0 70s 4.7 15.4 73% 98
Bobby Bonds 20.8 70s 14.2 11.5 80% 61
Reggie Smith 20.6 70s 18.7 12.4 44% 93 41% cf
Dwight Evans 19.4 80s 14.4 16.4 80% 73
Tony Oliva 18.9 60s 9.0 10.4 68% 76 24% dh
Ross Youngs 18.0 20s 4.2 8.1 98% -4
Sam Thompson 17.0 1890s 9.9 10.7 100% 52
Roger Maris 16.9 60s 3.5 9.2 79% -3
Kiki Cuyler 16.5 20s 8.5 12.2 42% 12 37% cf
Jeff Burroughs 16.4 70s 0.8 10.7 50% -36 26% lf
Enos Slaughter 16.2 40s 11.1 15.5 65% 0 22% lf
King Kelly 15.6 1880s 5.7 13.5 51% 0 40% c
Willie Keeler 15.3 1890s 15.3 14.7 89% -29
Felipe Alou 15.0 60s -1.4 13.0 35% -37 23% cf, 21% lf
George Hendrick 13.0 80s 2.4 12.9 44% -17 37% cf
Ken Griffey, Sr. 12.9 70s 8.1 13.2 47% 4 25% lf
Jackie Jensen 12.2 50s 3.8 9.3 84% 28
Harry Hooper 12.0 20s 7.8 15.2 95% 91
Merv Rettenmund 10.9 70s 1.2 6.3 43% -41 22% lf
Jesse Barfield 10.6 80s -1.1 8.9 94% 114
Bernie Carbo 10.1 70s 1.5 6.2 40% 12 30% lf
Sam Rice 9.4 20s 8.2 15.7 69% 75 25% cf
Harvey Kuenn 9.4 60s -1.5 11.7 19% -163 41% ss
Terry Puhl 9.2 80s 2.1 9.7 51% 8 22% cf
Carl Furillo 8.8 50s 0.7 11.7 77% 22
Hank Bauer 8.5 50s 0.4 10.0 84% -65
Cl. Washington 7.2 80s -0.2 12.1 58% -38
Tommy McCarthy 4.2 1890s -6.3 9.6 51% 49 40% lf
Joe Jackson knows who to blame. Of the remainder, I'm still most
impressed with King Kelly, considering time, place, and time at
catcher. The most valuable guy among the more recent candidates I
think is Reggie Smith.
Key to stats:
Peak -- total pitching wins (PW) for the best five years of the player
Years are not necessarily consecutive.
Outside -- total pitching wins outside the best five years
Decade -- decade in which most of the player's peak falls.
GS -- Games Started
PB -- Career pitcher batting runs, as estimated by Total Baseball VII.
PW -- Pitching Wins, PR/A divided by R/W
PR/A -- park adjusted linear weight pitching runs, calculated by TBVII.
R/W -- Runs per Win, calculated by (4 * League Runs) / (League Games * 1.83)
Hall -- Hall of Fame status. * indicates VHOFer
Peaks for prominent pitchers
Name Peak Decade Outside GS PB Hall
Walter Johnson 35.2 10s 39.6 666 99 *
Grover Alexander 29.7 10s 27.8 600 24 *
Cy Young 29.1 1900s 42.5 815 -22 *
John Clarkson 28.5 1880s 8.2 518 9 *
Lefty Grove 27.9 30s 27.9 457 -37 *
Chrsty Mathewson 27.7 1900s 17.1 552 59 *
Kid Nichols 27.3 1890s 22.4 562 -0 *
Ed Walsh 26.6 10s 7.1 315 15 *
Amos Rusie 25.6 1890s 2.8 427 13 *
Sandy Koufax 24.9 60s 2.1 314 -25 *
Bob Gibson 24.8 60s 13.3 482 65 *
Hal Newhouser 24.8 40s 7.4 374 12
Tom Seaver 24.5 70s 22.0 647 28 *
Carl Hubbell 24.3 30s 11.5 433 -5 *
Mordecai Brown 24.3 1900s 8.6 332 15 *
Steve Carlton 23.8 70s 7.8 709 49 *
Charles Radbourn 23.7 1880s -0.6 502 39 *
Juan Marichal 23.2 60s 5.4 457 10 *
Tim Keefe 22.5 1880s 10.3 594 11 *
Dazzy Vance 22.4 20s 2.4 349 -18
Jim Palmer 22.3 70s 13.9 521 7 *
Bob Feller 21.9 40s 8.0 484 -7 *
Gaylord Perry 20.8 60s 15.0 690 -16
Robin Roberts 20.6 50s 4.0 609 34
Rube Waddell 20.5 1900s 6.8 340 -17
Lefty Gomez 19.9 30s 1.7 320 -30
Phil Niekro 19.7 70s 13.3 716 -6 *
Joe McGinnity 19.6 1900s 0.4 381 -14
Stan Covelski 19.4 20s 7.7 385 -34
Jim Bunning 19.3 60s 1.2 519 -1
Vic Willis 19.1 1900s 1.9 471 -33
Warren Spahn 19.0 50s 16.9 665 88 *
Whitey Ford 18.7 50s 16.1 438 27 *
Addie Joss 18.4 1900s 7.4 260 -14
Red Faber 17.9 20s 9.2 483 -31
Billy Pierce 17.7 50s 6.3 432 0
Sam McDowell 17.6 60s -5.1 346 -8
Bob Lemon 17.2 50s 3.3 350 90
Don Drysdale 17.0 60s 9.2 465 59
Burleigh Grimes 17.0 20s -5.7 497 52
Wilbur Wood 16.9 70s -2.1 297 -14
Luis Tiant 16.8 70s 3.5 484 5
Fergie Jenkins 16.6 70s 10.1 594 13
Vida Blue 16.6 70s -4.6 473 -2
Ron Guidry 16.4 70s 1.8 323 0
Mickey Welch 16.3 1880s 0.8 549 21
Mel Parnell 16.3 50s -0.9 232 -7
Dizzy Dean 16.2 30s 3.4 230 15
Eppa Rixey 16.1 20s 8.3 554 -15
Don Sutton 16.1 70s 1.8 756 -7
Pud Galvin 16.1 1880s -3.7 681 -48
Early Wynn 15.8 50s -3.9 612 72
Ted Lyons 15.7 30s 12.4 484 32
Steve Rogers 15.5 70s 1.6 393 -8
Jerry Koosman 15.2 70s 1.0 527 -22
Andy Messersmith 15.1 70s 2.2 295 20
Red Ruffing 15.1 30s -0.5 538 143
Jon Matlack 14.7 70s -1.3 318 2
Jack Chesbro 14.7 1900s -4.7 332 -2
Catfish Hunter 14.7 70s -7.5 476 33
Dean Chance 14.6 60s 1.3 294 -37
John Tudor 14.5 80s 1.9 263 3
Herb Pennock 14.5 20s -8.2 419 3
Frank Tanana 14.4 70s -4.0 616 0
Eddie Plank 14.0 10s 15.5 529 17 *
Rick Reuschel 14.0 70s 5.1 529 8
Mike Garcia 14.0 50s 0.4 281 1
Curt Simmons 13.8 50s -0.5 461 1
Jim Kaat 13.7 60s -0.4 625 41
Johnny Antonelli 13.6 50s -1.5 268 15
Joe Horlen 13.6 60s -4.4 290 -12
Gary Peters 13.4 60s -7.4 286 57
Waite Hoyt 13.1 20s 3.3 425 -17
Jim Maloney 12.9 60s -2.6 262 26
Sal Maglie 12.8 50s 3.2 232 -16
Camilo Pascual 12.8 60s -8.9 404 29
Tommy John 12.7 70s 8.2 700 1
Bob Friend 12.6 60s -1.4 497 -36
Mike Cuellar 12.5 70s -1.5 379 -13
Bill Hands 12.5 60s -2.0 260 -20
Ed Lopat 12.1 50s 2.6 318 29
Bob Veale 11.9 60s -2.0 255 -17
Don Newcombe 11.8 50s -0.3 294 79
Chief Bender 11.7 10s -0.1 334 33
Rube Marquard 11.7 10s -8.4 407 -17
Charlie Hough 11.4 80s -1.3 440 -2
Ewell Blackwell 11.4 50s -1.6 169 -3
Jim Perry 11.4 60s -3.1 447 23
Jerry Reuss 11.4 80s -11.4 547 15
Larry Jackson 11.3 60s 5.0 429 -5
Mel Stottlemyre 11.3 60s -0.8 356 21
Vern Law 11.3 50s -9.4 346 45
John Candelaria 11.2 80s 2.4 356 15
Jesse Haines 11.2 20s -0.8 386 -22
John Denny 11.2 80s -6.9 322 2
Bobby Shantz 11.1 50s 3.2 171 11
Rick Rhoden 10.7 80s -2.8 380 45
Milt Pappas 10.5 60s 2.1 465 -14
Sonny Siebert 10.4 60s -2.1 307 18
Mickey Lolich 10.3 70s -1.9 496 -4
Dave McNally 10.3 70s -3.4 396 10
Chris Short 10.2 60s -6.0 308 -17
Mike Boddicker 10.1 80s -3.5 309 0
Dick Donovan 10.1 50s -7.2 273 24
Ken Holtzman 9.9 70s -4.2 410 -1
J.R. Richard 9.9 70s -4.5 221 12
Larry Gura 9.8 70s -4.4 261 -2
Claude Osteen 9.7 60s -3.6 488 38
Allie Reynolds 9.5 50s 0.2 309 -5
Babe Ruth 9.5 10s -0.8 148 78
Harvey Haddix 9.5 50s -1.9 285 35
Mike Scott 9.5 80s -9.2 319 -6
Lew Burdette 9.3 50s -11.3 373 30
Bruce Hurst 9.2 80s -4.6 359 -3
Mario Soto 9.0 80s -3.2 224 -10
Mike Witt 8.8 80s -4.7 299 0
Bob Knepper 8.5 80s -14.1 413 7
Denny McLain 8.1 60s -7.3 264 -9
Johnny Podres 7.6 60s -4.0 340 12
Joe Niekro 7.5 80s -12.0 500 6
Vic Raschi 7.1 50s -2.8 255 3
Rick Sutcliffe 7.1 80s -10.5 392 17
Scott McGregor 6.9 80s -8.2 309 0
Rick Wise 6.6 70s -6.5 455 34
Bob Forsch 5.5 70s -9.7 422 48
Rick Honeycutt 5.2 80s -1.7 268 2
Bill Gullickson 4.7 80s -7.0 390 -1
Carl Erskine 4.1 50s -3.4 216 -13
Ron Darling 4.0 80s -8.9 364 6
Mike Krukow 3.4 80s -7.8 355 17
Tom Browning 2.7 80s -4.8 300 2
Jim DeShaies 2.6 80s -8.6 253 -12
Don Larsen 1.4 50s -2.1 171 46
The top returning vote-getters are Robin Roberts and Dazzy Vance. (I guess
that's Roberts for career and Vance for peak, with Newhouser being ignored.)
The two big names coming eligible are Jenkins and Perry. Here's the four
together:
Name Peak Decade Outside GS PB Hall
Dazzy Vance 22.4 20s 2.4 349 -18
Gaylord Perry 20.8 60s 15.0 690 -16
Robin Roberts 20.6 50s 4.0 609 34
Fergie Jenkins 16.6 70s 10.1 594 13
Gaylord Perry seems obviously the best to me.
Key to stats:
Peak -- total pitching wins (PW) for the pitcher's best five relief years
Years are not necessarily consecutive.
RIP -- Relief innings pitched, fractional innings dropped.
~ indicates estimate
Peaks for Prominent Relief Pitchers
Name Peak Decade Outside RIP GS Hall
Goose Gossage 13.4 70s 3.0 1556 37
Hoyt Wilhelm 12.4 60s 20.2 1871 52 *
Dan Quisenberry 11.9 80s 3.0 1043 0
Mike Marshall 11.9 70s -2.5 1259 24
Bruce Sutter 11.1 70s 0.7 1042 0
John Hiller 10.9 70s 3.3 962 43
Tug McGraw 10.5 70s -0.8 1301 39
Sparky Lyle 10.4 70s 3.1 1390 0
Tom Burgmeier 9.8 70s -1.9 1248 3
Kent Tekulve 9.6 80s 5.7 1436 0
Ron Perranoski 9.6 60s -0.3 1170 1
Lindy McDaniel 9.5 60s -1.3 1694 74
Stu Miller 9.2 60s 1.1 1094 93
Rollie Fingers 9.0 70s 3.5 1500 37
Gene Garber 8.7 80s 1.2 1452 9
Don McMahon 7.7 60s 1.5 1297 2
Dick Radatz 7.4 60s -2.0 693 0
Steve Bedrosian 6.9 80s 0.0 931 46
Elroy Face 6.5 60s -1.0 1212 27
Clem Labine 5.1 50s 0.0 ~830 38
Quisenberry's got the best rate, but Gossage may have been more valuable.
My ballot:
1) Willie Wells
2) Gaylord Perry
3) Dick Allen
4) Billy Williams
5) Goose Gossage
--
Dale J. Stephenson
daleste...@mac.com
--
Dale J. Stephenson
daleste...@mac.com
Dale J. Stephenson
> In article <c0r6gb$hag$2...@news.btv.ibm.com>,
> mas...@valhalla.no.spam.com (Douglas T. (Doug) Massey ) wrote:
>
> > Here's my guess at the most qualified candidates at each position:
> >
> > 1B: Dick Allen
>
> > 2B: Bobby Grich (I still think Bill Mazeroski, but no one else does)
>
> Grich, Mazeroski better than Frisch?
>
Depends on what you like:
Key to stats:
Peak -- total offensive wins (OW) for the best five years of the player
years are not necessarily consecutive.
Outside -- total offensive wins outside the best five years
Decade -- decade in which most of the player's peak falls.
Years -- Games played, divided by most common games/team for each year.
@Pos -- percent of games played at this position
FR -- Career fielding runs, as estimated by Total Baseball VII.
-- From '88-'96, fielding runs generated from DA substituted.
Hall -- Hall of Fame status. * indicates HOFer, with VC or OT for committee
Active players listed as Actv
Currently BBWAA eligible listed with highest vote %.
Players not yet eligible listed with year of eligibility.
Players recently retired are listed with year to appear on ballot.
Players on ineligible list are listed as -IE-
Other -- % of games played at other positions. Less than 20% not listed.
OW -- Offensive Wins, (BR/A + SBR) / R/W.
R/W -- Runs per win, calculated by (4 * League Runs) / (1.83 * League Games)
BR/A -- park adjusted linear weight batting runs, calculated by TB VII.
SBR -- stolen base runs. (SB*0.22 - CS*0.35). Not calculated for years
without caught stealing totals.
Peaks for Prominent Second Basemen
Name Peak Decade Outside Years @Pos FR Hall Other
Bobby Grich 16.1 70s 11.8 12.7 88% 80
Frankie Frisch 12.6 20s 2.4 15.0 76% 148 *
Bill Mazeroski -2.7 60s -16.9 13.6 97% 362 * VC
Grich has around 12 wins over Frisch on offense, but Frisch played a little
bit more than two extra seasons. Is Frisch enough better on defense to
unseat Grich? Highly doubtful to me.
Mazeroski also played about two more seasons (at second) than Grich, but
he's over 45 wins behind on offense. I don't think the best glove ever
can make up that sort of gap on Grich, no slouch himself with a glove.
> > SP: Dazzy Vance, Gaylord Perry, Robin Roberts, and Fergie Jenkins.
>
> Is it clear they're all better than Ted Lyons?
>
Key to stats:
Peak -- total pitching wins (PW) for the best five years of the player
Years are not necessarily consecutive.
Outside -- total pitching wins outside the best five years
Decade -- decade in which most of the player's peak falls.
GS -- Games Started
PB -- Career pitcher batting runs, as estimated by Total Baseball VII.
PW -- Pitching Wins, PR/A divided by R/W
PR/A -- park adjusted linear weight pitching runs, calculated by TBVII.
R/W -- Runs per Win, calculated by (4 * League Runs) / (League Games * 1.83)
Hall -- Hall of Fame status. * indicates HOFer, with VC or OT for committee
Active players listed as Actv
Currently BBWAA eligible listed with highest vote %.
Players not yet eligible listed with year of eligibility.
Players recently retired are listed with year to appear on ballot.
Players on ineligible list are listed as -IE-
Peaks for prominent pitchers
Name Peak Decade Outside GS PB Hall
Dazzy Vance 22.4 20s 2.4 349 -18 *
Gaylord Perry 20.8 60s 15.0 690 -16 *
Robin Roberts 20.6 50s 4.0 609 34 *
Fergie Jenkins 16.6 70s 10.1 594 13 *
Ted Lyons 15.7 30s 12.4 484 32 *
I could see a value-based argument for Lyons over the brilliant but short
career of Dazzy Vance. Don't see any way to argue Lyons over Perry.
Douglas T. (Doug) Massey
"David Craven" <spam...@nul.dev> writes:
> My Ballot...
>
> 1. Robinson, Brooks.
> 2. Lou Brock.
> 3. Branch Rickey.
> 4. Casey Stengal.
> 5. Red Barber.
Remember to email these directly to me as well as posting them here.
I caught these, but might miss them in the future.
Dvd Avins
news:m2wu6l4...@localhost.localdomain...
<snip>
> Quisenberry's got the best rate, but Gossage may have been more valuable.
>
> My ballot:
> 1) Willie Wells
> 2) Gaylord Perry
> 3) Dick Allen
> 4) Billy Williams
> 5) Goose Gossage
Gossage isn't eligible yet.
--
"Prohibition will work great injury to the cause of temperance. It is a
species of intemperance within itself, ... [it] makes a crime out of things
Kenny
news:m2wu6l4...@localhost.localdomain...
>
>
> Name Peak Decade Outside RIP GS Hall
> Goose Gossage 13.4 70s 3.0 1556 37
Wait a sec. Goose can't be eligible yet. He retired in 1994 I think.
Kenny
Perry Sailor
"Douglas T. (Doug) Massey " <mas...@valhalla.btv.ibm.com> wrote in message
news:c0r5ul$hag$1...@news.btv.ibm.com...
Didn't realize Branch Rickey's not in.
1. Brock
2. Rickey
3. Allen
4. Kiner
5. Grich
Perry
Dale J. Stephenson
Sure enough. I wasted my 5th place vote. I'll go with Quiz over Fingers
or Tekulve.
Douglas T. (Doug) Massey
I'm surprised that *you're* surprised that Branch Rickey isn't in. :-)
He picked up a grand total of zero votes in 82 elections the first
time through.
You're the second person to ever vote for him in the new elections.
He's a revolutionary front-office guy, but no one has ever been
elected to the VHOF for front-office work (the closest to that would
be the just-elected John Ward, I guess, but he was a terrific player.
But Rickey played 120 games, total). I think you're trying to vote
him into the wrong Hall of Fame.
Dvd Avins
playing limited number of games a long time ago should count for as much as
playing 162 games per season does now, but there is cause to recognize more
players from the Negro Leagues
1) Wells
2) Torriente -- In addition to him being just great, it would be good to
have somebody who exemplifies the Pan-American nature of the game at the
time.
3) Kiner -- Awesome peak.
4) Perry -- Still the best pitcher available, despite side issues. But those
issues push him below Torrent and Kiner.
5) Cronin
Rogan, Roberts, Robinson, Glasscock, and others are also strong candidates,
as far as I'm concerned. Rickey, OTOH, I considered and decided he wasn't
all that strong, after all. He gets credit for being successful, and he gets
credit for Robinson. But I don't think he deserves credit for being a
pathbreaker. His quantitative techniques were largely ignored, then
completely
James Withrow
Doug Massey" <mas...@valhalla.no.spam.com> wrote:
> In article <2jqYb.52813$IF1....@nwrdny03.gnilink.net>,
> "Dvd Avins" <dvdNOav...@pobox.com> writes:
>> So
>> how much of a multiplier do you think relievers should get? I think 2.0 is
>> at the upper edge of plausibility.
>
> I don't think it's as simple as a multiplier. If you had a reliever
> who typically pitched the last three innings of a game, then his multiplier
> would be lower than that of a reliever who typically pitched the last
> inning of a 1-run game (because the second and third inning of the
> three-inning guy would often be devalued by one team or the other
> blowing the game open, whereas every out the one-inning guy gets is in
> a crucial spot from a team-wins perspective). Maybe the multiplier is
> something like MAX(1.0, (4.0-IP/G)) -- 2.8 for Goose Gossage, 1.9 for
> Hoyt Wilhelm, 2.6 for Quiz, 2.6 for Tekulve, 2.9 for John Franco. Who
> knows.
>
Yeah, but how often would a team blow open the game after their best
reliever entered in the 7th? Compare that to games where the ace reliever
comes into the 9th with a 3-run lead.
I know I'm the only one who keeps bringing this up, but I still think we're
overvaluing 9th inning relief pitching because we're not taking into account
the value of maintaining a small lead in the 7th and 8th innings, which
keeps the other team's ace reliever from entering the game. In the
contemporary game, I hafta think that's worth something.
In fact, I would make a guess that if we tabulated the won-loss pctgs for
each inning where the opposition scored zero runs and compared them with the
won-loss pctgs for each inning where the opposition scored one or more runs,
the 6th, 7th and 8th innings would look pretty important. I don't know how
to get around the fact that the winning team often doesn't bat in the 9th,
though.
Withrow
Douglas T. (Doug) Massey
Noted. Remember to email me directly in the future.
Gerry Myerson
mas...@valhalla.no.spam.com (Douglas T. (Doug) Massey ) wrote:
> When someone finally got the bright idea to pitch him on four days
> rest instead of three, Brooklyn bought him and Vance turned into a
> strikeout machine -- leading the league every year from 1922-1927.
Yes, he was a strikeout machine (by the standards of the 1920s),
but as a pitcher, he was inconsistent from year to year. Here
are his ERA+ numbers, 1922 to 1932 (the seasons when he pitched
enough to qualify):
110, 111, 173, 118, 98, 146, 191, 119, 189, 113, 90.
If you put all the low numbers to the left, and the high ones
to the right, you get Sandy Koufax' career.
Douglas T. (Doug) Massey
Gerry Myerson <ge...@maths.mq.edi.ai.i2u4email> writes:
> In article <c0t6gs$obm$1...@news.btv.ibm.com>,
> mas...@valhalla.no.spam.com (Douglas T. (Doug) Massey ) wrote:
>
>> When someone finally got the bright idea to pitch him on four days
>> rest instead of three, Brooklyn bought him and Vance turned into a
>> strikeout machine -- leading the league every year from 1922-1927.
>
> Yes, he was a strikeout machine (by the standards of the 1920s),
> but as a pitcher, he was inconsistent from year to year. Here
> are his ERA+ numbers, 1922 to 1932 (the seasons when he pitched
> enough to qualify):
>
> 110, 111, 173, 118, 98, 146, 191, 119, 189, 113, 90.
But who cares if he's inconsistent? He ranged from average to really
good to fabulous.
> If you put all the low numbers to the left, and the high ones
> to the right, you get Sandy Koufax' career.
And Koufax is in the VHOF.
Vance had a 125 ERA+ for 2967 IP. Koufax had a 131 for 2324 IP.
I'm not a fan of the "Player A is in the HOF, Player B is better than
Player A, so Player B should be in the HOF" argument, but it would
definitely apply here.
Corby Gilmore
>
>> If you put all the low numbers to the left, and the high ones
>> to the right, you get Sandy Koufax' career.
>
> And Koufax is in the VHOF.
>
> Vance had a 125 ERA+ for 2967 IP. Koufax had a 131 for 2324 IP.
> I'm not a fan of the "Player A is in the HOF, Player B is better than
> Player A, so Player B should be in the HOF" argument, but it would
> definitely apply here.
If Player A is in the HOF and if it is agreed that player B was a better
player than Player A then, by definition, shouldnt Player B also be in the HOF
and shouldnt Player B have been inducted into the HOF before Player A?
[Pete Rose not withstanding, of course.]
--
Corby Gilmore
co...@ncf.ca
David Marc Nieporent
No.
---------------------------------------------
David M. Nieporent niep...@alumni.princeton.edu
Ima Pseudonym
wrote:
> If Player A is in the HOF and if it is agreed that player B was a better
>player than Player A then, by definition, shouldnt Player B also be in the HOF
>and shouldnt Player B have been inducted into the HOF before Player A?
No. You'd need to first argue either that mistakes were never made in
the balloting (I don't mean miscounts, but rather voters electing
players who really aren't worthy), or that Player A's election in
particular wasn't a mistake. Then you'd need to advance an argument
that there were no additional factors besides playing record itself
that contributed to Player A's election, or that the additional
factors also applied to Player B.
Douglas T. (Doug) Massey
No and yes.
While I agree that B *should* be inducted before A if he's qualified,
just because A is inducted doesn't mean B should be. Player A might
have been a mistake.
Further more, if A precedes B chronologically, then you have a situation
where A is eligible and B is not. It's possible that A was the best
choice at the time and by the time B comes along, A looks like a bad pick.
Finally, B > A isn't always clear-cut. I don't think everyone would
agree that Vance was a better player than Koufax. ;-)
Cameron Laird
Douglas T. (Doug) Massey <mas...@valhalla.no.spam.com> wrote:
.
.
.
>Further more, if A precedes B chronologically, then you have a situation
>where A is eligible and B is not. It's possible that A was the best
>choice at the time and by the time B comes along, A looks like a bad pick.
.
.
PARTICULARLY in the case of the VHOF, which is where this thread
began. Several have commented already that these temporal parti-
cularities contribute to the VHOF's charm.
--
Cameron Laird <cla...@phaseit.net>
Business: http://www.Phaseit.net
Ben
> were no additional factors besides playing record itself
> that contributed to Player A's election, or that the
> additional factors also applied to Player B.
regarding off-the-field factors, i have a personal bias that i would apply them
positively, but not negatively. (a marginal-hof player with some great
off-the-field factors might get my vote. a player who belonged in the hall, but
by a narrow margin, based on his career, would *not* likely be disqualified
based on off-the-field factors.)
i'm curious whether others agree, or if perhaps some of you see it the opposite
way.
--
Ben B
Gerry Myerson
mas...@valhalla.no.spam.com (Douglas T. (Doug) Massey ) wrote:
> In article <gerry-15E0EC....@sunb.ocs.mq.edu.au>,
> Gerry Myerson <ge...@maths.mq.edi.ai.i2u4email> writes:
> > In article <c0t6gs$obm$1...@news.btv.ibm.com>,
> > mas...@valhalla.no.spam.com (Douglas T. (Doug) Massey ) wrote:
> >
> >> When someone finally got the bright idea to pitch him on four days
> >> rest instead of three, Brooklyn bought him and Vance turned into a
> >> strikeout machine -- leading the league every year from 1922-1927.
> >
> > Yes, he was a strikeout machine (by the standards of the 1920s),
> > but as a pitcher, he was inconsistent from year to year. Here
> > are his ERA+ numbers, 1922 to 1932 (the seasons when he pitched
> > enough to qualify):
> >
> > 110, 111, 173, 118, 98, 146, 191, 119, 189, 113, 90.
>
> But who cares if he's inconsistent? He ranged from average to really
> good to fabulous.
>
> > If you put all the low numbers to the left, and the high ones
> > to the right, you get Sandy Koufax' career.
>
> And Koufax is in the VHOF.
>
> Vance had a 125 ERA+ for 2967 IP. Koufax had a 131 for 2324 IP.
> I'm not a fan of the "Player A is in the HOF, Player B is better than
> Player A, so Player B should be in the HOF" argument, but it would
> definitely apply here.
Koufax' career lends itself naturally to a story: he floundered
for a while, then he got it, and once he had it he kept it until
he quit.
What's Vance's story? He floundered a while, then he got it,
the he forgot it, then he got it back, then he forgot most of
it, then he got it a third time, then he forgot it again?
You see, you can convince yourself that Koufax really really
had it all together, and that, had he been willing to sacrifice
his arm to his team, he could have continued on that exalted
plane for many years to come. You can't do that for Vance.
I don't know that that makes Koufax more worthy of the VHOF
than Vance (and indeed part of what I was trying to do when
I made that remark about rearranging Vance's numbers was I
was trying to show how comparable the two talents were),
but I think it explains some of the difference in how fans
see the two players.
That, and the fact that a few of us are actually old enough
to have seen Koufax pitch, while even Ivan Weiss never saw
Vance on the mound.
JimmyG
1) Dazzy Vance
2) Brooks Robinson (Dale's peak lists be damned, but look at where
"Captain" Sal Bando places!)
3) Branch Rickey (Ward pushes the door open, Mahatma breaks it down)
4) Quiz
5) Wahoo Sam Crawford (Bartender... I'll have another triple)
Doug, I'll send this list to your attention in a minute (no need to
admonish me).
JimmyG
Didn't want to waste a vote on Joe Rudi...
Kenny
news:5c1c84a2.04022...@posting.google.com...
> OK flamethrowers, get the equipment fired up!
>
> 1) Dazzy Vance
> 2) Brooks Robinson (Dale's peak lists be damned, but look at where
> "Captain" Sal Bando places!)
> 3) Branch Rickey (Ward pushes the door open, Mahatma breaks it down)
> 4) Quiz
> 5) Wahoo Sam Crawford (Bartender... I'll have another triple)
Isn't Sam Crawford already in?
Kenny
Douglas T. (Doug) Massey
kidfl...@hotmail.com (JimmyG) writes:
> OK flamethrowers, get the equipment fired up!
>
> 1) Dazzy Vance
> 2) Brooks Robinson (Dale's peak lists be damned, but look at where
> "Captain" Sal Bando places!)
> 3) Branch Rickey (Ward pushes the door open, Mahatma breaks it down)
> 4) Quiz
> 5) Wahoo Sam Crawford (Bartender... I'll have another triple)
Crawford's already in . . .
I guess I don't see the fascination for Branch Rickey. He'd be
one of the first to get my vote if this were the "Baseball Executive
Hall of Fame", but it's not. Quoting from the web page and
RStLoup's original description:
"Though the VHOF is a players' honor, voters are naturally free if
they wish to conclude that a players' contributions beyond actual
contribution to wins and losses can be a factor in making selections."
I think this pretty clearly says that off-the-field contributions
can be a factor in comparing one player to another, but that they
weren't supposed to used *in place of* a playing career.
The VHOF is supposed to be the best 100 or so players in history.
If Branch Rickey were to be elected, we'd be changing the definition
of the VHOF itself. I'd personally find that disappointing.
David Foss
Sounds a bit like Steve Carlton with a shorter career.
> You see, you can convince yourself that Koufax really really
> had it all together, and that, had he been willing to sacrifice
> his arm to his team, he could have continued on that exalted
> plane for many years to come. You can't do that for Vance.
>
> I don't know that that makes Koufax more worthy of the VHOF
> than Vance (and indeed part of what I was trying to do when
> I made that remark about rearranging Vance's numbers was I
> was trying to show how comparable the two talents were),
> but I think it explains some of the difference in how fans
> see the two players.
>
> That, and the fact that a few of us are actually old enough
> to have seen Koufax pitch, while even Ivan Weiss never saw
> Vance on the mound.
Its easy for me to forget that Koufax was only 25 when he "got it" (or
at least when he stopped floundering). Randy Johnson was a
late-bloomer. Koufax only looked like a late-bloomer because of his
bonus-baby status.
As a side question, any word on how modern medicine would have helped
out these old-timers? Is there a treatment now for Koufax's arthritic
arm? I've also often wondered if Cepeda & Oliva would have been far
less hobbled with today's modern arthroscopic surgeries.
Roger Moore
>As a side question, any word on how modern medicine would have helped
>out these old-timers? Is there a treatment now for Koufax's arthritic
>arm?
Not as far as I know. Degenerative arthritis is what ended Albert Belle's
career, which seems like a strong indication that there's not much that
modern medicine could have done for Koufax.
>I've also often wondered if Cepeda & Oliva would have been far
>less hobbled with today's modern arthroscopic surgeries.
That seems much more likely. Not to mention huge numbers of pitchers who
suffered more standard injuries than Koufax. Dazzy Vance, to pick
somebody who's been discussed in this thread, might well have made the
majors to stay almost a decade earlier than he did had he been able to get
his elbow surgically repaired.
--
Roger Moore | Master of Meaningless Trivia | (r...@alumni.caltech.edu)
I believe there are more instances of the abridgement of freedom of the
people by gradual and silent encroachments by those in power than by
violent and sudden usurpations. -- James Madison
Kenny
news:c15t9b$bvq$1...@news.btv.ibm.com...
>
> I guess I don't see the fascination for Branch Rickey. He'd be
> one of the first to get my vote if this were the "Baseball Executive
> Hall of Fame", but it's not. Quoting from the web page and
> RStLoup's original description:
>
> "Though the VHOF is a players' honor, voters are naturally free if
> they wish to conclude that a players' contributions beyond actual
> contribution to wins and losses can be a factor in making selections."
>
> I think this pretty clearly says that off-the-field contributions
> can be a factor in comparing one player to another, but that they
> weren't supposed to used *in place of* a playing career.
>
> The VHOF is supposed to be the best 100 or so players in history.
> If Branch Rickey were to be elected, we'd be changing the definition
> of the VHOF itself. I'd personally find that disappointing.
I vote based on on the field performance first of all. Anything done off the
field is a bonus that can help the player's chances (as with Ward) or hurt
them (Pete Rose). Since Branch Rickey didn't have a great playing career I
don't even consider him.
Kenny
Josprung
>If Branch Rickey were to be elected, we'd be changing the definition
>of the VHOF itself. I'd personally find that disappointing.
>
>Doug
Perhaps a seperate 'wing' for managers, pioneers, broadcasters, organ players
and peanut vendors....
Danny
BTW, I know sarcasm is hard to 'read' on the web.
I think a seperate wing is a good idea for the first 3 groups above...
Dvd Avins
news:2jqYb.52813$IF1....@nwrdny03.gnilink.net...
<snip>
> Here's all relievers I can find with Pitchers' WAR of at least 27.
I found another: Don McMahon
> 70 Hoyt Wilhelm
> 43 Goose Gossage
> 38 Kent Tekulve
> 36 John Franco
> 35 Rollie Fingers
> 34 Lindy McDaniel
> 34 Lee Smith
> 34 Sparky Lyle
> 33 John Hiller
> 33 Dan Quisenberry
> 30 Jesse Orosco
> 30 Gene Garber
> 29 Tug McGraw
> 29 Bruce Sutter
> 29 Doug Jones
> 29 Clay Carroll
> 28 Mike Marshall
> 27 Mariano Rivera
27 Don McMahon
> 27 Tom Henke
--
"Prohibition will work great injury to the cause of temperance. It is a
species of intemperance within itself... [It] makes a crime out of things
Dvd Avins
> "Dvd Avins" <dvdNOav...@pobox.com> wrote in message
> news:2jqYb.52813$IF1....@nwrdny03.gnilink.net...
>
> <snip>
>
> > Here's all relievers I can find with Pitchers' WAR of at least 27.
>
> I found another: Don McMahon
Hacving just gone throug the career leader lists in games and Saves, I have
what I think is my last addtion: Stu Miller.
>
> > 70 Hoyt Wilhelm
> > 43 Goose Gossage
> > 38 Kent Tekulve
> > 36 John Franco
> > 35 Rollie Fingers
> > 34 Lindy McDaniel
> > 34 Lee Smith
> > 34 Sparky Lyle
> > 33 John Hiller
> > 33 Dan Quisenberry
32 Stu Miller
Gerry Myerson
kidfl...@hotmail.com (JimmyG) wrote:
> 3) Branch Rickey (Ward pushes the door open, Mahatma breaks it down)
What door did Ward push open that Rickey broke down?
Player empowerment? Hardly, Rickey was hardline against that.
Desegregation? Did Ward have a role in that?
The light dawns on me - maybe you mean the door into the VHOF?
Well if we're going to start giving a lot of kudos for contributions
off the field, there are probably several people in line ahead
of Rickey.
Douglas T. (Doug) Massey
r...@alumnae.caltech.edu (Roger Moore) writes:
> FossD...@aol.com (David Foss) writes:
>
>>As a side question, any word on how modern medicine would have helped
>>out these old-timers? Is there a treatment now for Koufax's arthritic
>>arm?
>
> Not as far as I know. Degenerative arthritis is what ended Albert Belle's
> career, which seems like a strong indication that there's not much that
> modern medicine could have done for Koufax.
Albert Belle caused Koufax to retire!?!?! I knew there was something
evil about Belle; this is proof.
Douglas T. (Doug) Massey
Gerry Myerson <ge...@maths.mq.edi.ai.i2u4email> writes:
> In article <5c1c84a2.04022...@posting.google.com>,
> kidfl...@hotmail.com (JimmyG) wrote:
>
>> 3) Branch Rickey (Ward pushes the door open, Mahatma breaks it down)
>
> What door did Ward push open that Rickey broke down?
The door that was closed to good-but-not-great players getting into
the VHOF based on off-the-field acheivements. But Rickey would have
to go through the door for players with 120 games played and lots of
good stuff off the field, and I think that's a different door.
> Player empowerment? Hardly, Rickey was hardline against that.
>
> Desegregation? Did Ward have a role in that?
>
> The light dawns on me - maybe you mean the door into the VHOF?
> Well if we're going to start giving a lot of kudos for contributions
> off the field, there are probably several people in line ahead
> of Rickey.
As I said, Rickey's on my first ballot for Virtual Baseball Front
Office Hall of Fame, but that's a different web page.
Doug
PS: Rickey also sort-of-pioneered the minor league farm system.
He was moderately clueless about pitcher development, though, and
fragged many-an-arm by forcing everyone to learn the 12-to-6 curve.