Griffey is an Idiot
Benjamin Gregory Ramm
On 23 Jul 1997, cobra wrote:
> Ken Griffey says, "...there are players in this clubhouse who want to
> defer money to free up something now. Management won't do it."
>
> Doesn't Griffey know that Baseball's collective bargaining agreement
> with the Player's Union does not allow teams to restructure player
> contracts? Obviously not. Mr. Griffey needs to know what the hell he is
> talking about before he opens his big, fat yap.
Somehow they did it with Hibbard last year. I can't pretend to be a
baseball lawyer, but if the orginial post had any intellectual honesty it
would have included more of Griffey's quote, rather than just the part
that makes him look bad. I suppose that the only purpose of this post was
to rile a Mariners fan. Well, you got it. Satisfied?
For anyone interested in a bit more of the story:
"I was raised in this organization and I always told them, 'If you need
money, ask me.' Instead, they went to Greg Hibbard last year - a guy who
hadn't pitched for us in three years - and gave him an extra year on his
contract to defer money to go get Terry Mulholland.
"You know what that was? That was a 'Screw you, Griffey,' move."
The quotes can be found almost anywhere, I picked the Tacoma News Tribune.
Seems like they can redo deals. Or at least it looks as if there is a way
to change things around to achieve the same purpose. I guess you could
say that a club cannot restructure a deal, but a player and the club could
agree to restructure the deal. It is the difference between unilateral
and bilateral.
> Griffey is slowly and surely revealing himself to be a big, whining,
> sniveling crybaby. He needs to pull up his Huggies, shut his damn mouth
> and go play.
Some how we forget that is exactly what he did for the first three or four
years of his career. But losing sucks. So now he cries and whines when
the front office won't help him win. Again, I like to hear that from a
player. We on this newsgroup, hate to break this to you guys, don't have
a lot of pull in making decisions, but when Griffey pouts, there's a shot
at the Mariners getting better.
And for crying out loud, have the balls to sign your own name when you
misquote someone.
Ben Ramm
Matthew B. Maison
On 23 Jul 1997, cobra wrote:
> Ken Griffey says, "...there are players in this clubhouse who want to
> defer money to free up something now. Management won't do it."
>
> Doesn't Griffey know that Baseball's collective bargaining agreement
> with the Player's Union does not allow teams to restructure player
> contracts? Obviously not. Mr. Griffey needs to know what the hell he is
> talking about before he opens his big, fat yap.
>
> Griffey is slowly and surely revealing himself to be a big, whining,
> sniveling crybaby. He needs to pull up his Huggies, shut his damn mouth
> and go play.
Also entertaining was his comments on the M's exhibition game the other
day. He had some good points, but most of it was whining. The M's played
a AAA team the other day. Griffey was upset because the team was in the
middle of a penant race and the players needed rest. The starters only
played one inning, so I guess those games of catch before the game really
wore him out. Side note: Griffey won't come close to 61.
---------------------
Matthew B. Maison
mai...@u.arizona.edu
University of Arizona
http://www.u.arizona.edu/~maison
cobra
Glenn A Tanner
In article <5r604l$8...@ratty.wolfe.net>, cobra <co...@wolfenet.com> wrote:
> Ken Griffey says, "...there are players in this clubhouse who want to
>defer money to free up something now. Management won't do it."
>
> Doesn't Griffey know that Baseball's collective bargaining agreement
>with the Player's Union does not allow teams to restructure player
>contracts? Obviously not. Mr. Griffey needs to know what the hell he is
>talking about before he opens his big, fat yap.
I had the same thought, but then I saw that he said that they asked Greg
Hibbard to restructure. What's up with that?
> Griffey is slowly and surely revealing himself to be a big, whining,
>sniveling crybaby. He needs to pull up his Huggies, shut his damn mouth
>and go play.
He is. He's a damn clubhouse cancer is what he is!! He's ruining the
chemistry on that team!!! Since the Mariners need pitching, they should
trade him to Texas for Bobby Witt and Ken Hill!!! The Rangers would
probably even throw in Will Clark, a guy who knows how to win and is a
great clubhouse presence, not to mention a professional hitter.
GT
Mark Schroeder
Matthew B. Maison <mai...@U.Arizona.EDU> wrote in article
<Pine.A32.3.93.970723...@lucia.u.arizona.edu>...
>
>
>
> Also entertaining was his comments on the M's exhibition game the other
> day. He had some good points, but most of it was whining. The M's
played
> a AAA team the other day. Griffey was upset because the team was in the
> middle of a penant race and the players needed rest. The starters only
> played one inning, so I guess those games of catch before the game really
> wore him out. Side note: Griffey won't come close to 61.
>
Actually they played the Southern League All Stars- and a name you should
remember from that game is Juan Encarnacion- 3 dingers.
Spike White
Matthew B. Maison (mai...@U.Arizona.EDU) wrote:
: Also entertaining was his comments on the M's exhibition game the other
: day. He had some good points, but most of it was whining. The M's played
: a AAA team the other day. Griffey was upset because the team was in the
: middle of a penant race and the players needed rest.
Exactly.
What good does it do the team to play a AAA team when they've had
back-to-back games for several days? A lot of the games were on the road.
I agree that Griffey's comments ("that's the Mariners way") were probably
counter-productive. But he was right to complain, both for himself and
his team. Sounds like the M's management is pretty brain-dead and not
listening to their players.
: The starters only played one inning, so I guess those games of catch before
: the game really wore him out.
No, I think the travel wore the team out.
: Side note: Griffey won't come close to 61.
Maybe he would on a team whose management treats him better.
--
Spike White http://chistech.com/users/spike| Math like sux 'n' shit
Chisholm Technologies | sp...@chistech.com | cuz it's got like numbers.
Austin, TX | '87 BMW K75S (motorcycle)| -- Beavis
Disclaimer: The guys down the hall disagree with everything I say. Guess
who speaks for the company!
David Wright
"Matthew B. Maison" <mai...@U.Arizona.EDU> wrote:
>On 23 Jul 1997, cobra wrote:
>> Ken Griffey says, "...there are players in this clubhouse who want to
>> defer money to free up something now. Management won't do it."
>>
>> Doesn't Griffey know that Baseball's collective bargaining agreement
>> with the Player's Union does not allow teams to restructure player
>> contracts? Obviously not. Mr. Griffey needs to know what the hell he is
>> talking about before he opens his big, fat yap.
>>
>> Griffey is slowly and surely revealing himself to be a big, whining,
>> sniveling crybaby. He needs to pull up his Huggies, shut his damn mouth
>> and go play.
>Also entertaining was his comments on the M's exhibition game the other
>day. He had some good points, but most of it was whining. The M's played
>a AAA team the other day. Griffey was upset because the team was in the
>middle of a penant race and the players needed rest. The starters only
>played one inning, so I guess those games of catch before the game really
>wore him out. Side note: Griffey won't come close to 61.
>---------------------
>Matthew B. Maison
>mai...@u.arizona.edu
>University of Arizona
>http://www.u.arizona.edu/~maison
I'll respond, even though it is to postings from some crossidiots.
I'm guessing here: (a) you're not M's fans; (b) you've never played
baseball past LL, if that; and (c) you've never had to spend much of
your working life travelling (if you've worked).
(a) M's fans have put up with wimpy ownership and wimpy management
since the beginning, and Mr. Griffey, after Mr. Davis, represents the
hope of Now, not the hope of the future. He wants to win. He speaks
for a lot of people when he voices his frustrations. What do you know?
(b) If you've played baseball, you know that it's a team game as well
as an individual game. It is f***ing frustrating to do your job, only
to have another part of the "team" lose the game in the last couple of
innings. This is OK for a while, but not for months.
(c) Travelling is damned hard. I used to do it only 1-2 times a month
from coast to coast and still wore out. Until expansion in the late
50's, teams had only overnight train trips, in Pullman sleepers, and
only as far west as St. Louis. A day off without putting on the
uniform in the middle of the season is like gold. Give the guys a
break!
David
Sean Lahman
cobra wrote:
>
> Ken Griffey says, "...there are players in this clubhouse who want
> to defer money to free up something now. Management won't do it."
>
> Doesn't Griffey know that Baseball's collective bargaining agreement
> with the Player's Union does not allow teams to restructure player
> contracts? Obviously not. Mr. Griffey needs to know what the hell he
> is talking about before he opens his big, fat yap.
Speaking of which.... Teams can and do restructure contracts. I don't
know what you're talking about.
> Griffey is slowly and surely revealing himself to be a big, whining,
> sniveling crybaby. He needs to pull up his Huggies, shut his damn
> mouth and go play.
If you'd read the whole story, you'd see what Griffey was talking about.
(see http://ESPNET.SportsZone.com/mlb/news/970723/00315343.html) He
complained that the front office scheduled an exhibition game against a
class AA All-Star team in North Carolina on one of their three off days
for the season. He thought that was a dumb move when your team is in
the pennant race, and I agree.
He also complained that the team has left Randy Johnson in the lurch by
not trying to extend his contract, just like they did with Buhner last
year and Griffey the year before.
The whole thrust of his outburst was they have a first-place team and a
third-rate front office. I think he makes some good points.
If you want to berate Griffey go right ahead. But your way off-base on
this one.
--
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Sean Lahman - lah...@vivanet.com
Ken Molstre
€>> Ken Griffey says, "...there are players in this clubhouse who want to
€>> defer money to free up something now. Management won't do it."
€>>
€>> Doesn't Griffey know that Baseball's collective bargaining agreement
€>> with the Player's Union does not allow teams to restructure player
€>> contracts? Obviously not. Mr. Griffey needs to know what the hell he is
€>> talking about before he opens his big, fat yap.
€>>
€>> Griffey is slowly and surely revealing himself to be a big, whining,
€>> sniveling crybaby. He needs to pull up his Huggies, shut his damn mouth
€>> and go play.
€
€>Also entertaining was his comments on the M's exhibition game the other
For some reason I doubt you'd be saying much of this stuff if it was
Alomar,Belle or Bonds bitching at their management instead of Griffey.
--
The Barry Bonds Homepage
http://perham.eot.com/~funnyfar/stuff0.html
www.bonds.base.org
------------------------------------------------------------
Eye Vee
In article <33D7A3...@vivanet.com> lah...@vivanet.com writes:
>
>If you'd read the whole story, you'd see what Griffey was talking about.
>(see http://ESPNET.SportsZone.com/mlb/news/970723/00315343.html) He
>complained that the front office scheduled an exhibition game against a
>class AA All-Star team in North Carolina on one of their three off days
>for the season. He thought that was a dumb move when your team is in
>the pennant race, and I agree.
3 off days at home, not for the season. Not a big difference, but somewhat.
>
>If you want to berate Griffey go right ahead. But your way off-base on
>this one.
>--
>~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>Sean Lahman - lah...@vivanet.com
Also in the AP version of the article, they asked A-Rod and Buhner about
playing in the exhibition game.
A-Rod said that " Alot of guys were complaining before er got here. But
my attitude is that, if you're a big leaguer, you should play a big
league game, no matter where you are."
Buhner, when asked if he was tired after Tuesday's loss to Cleveland:
"Nope, I'm fine."
The starters only played 1 inning and then were pulled.
After reading the article, I thought that Griffey sounded like a spoiled
kid, too.
He's got a burr up his high paid butt because he hasn't hit a dinger in,
what 13 games.
--
Slow and steady wins the race, | Scott Ivancic call...@en.com
especially if all of the other |
racers are extremely slow and steady. | (This space left intentionally blank)
Kevin Wintersteen
In <33D7A3...@vivanet.com> Sean Lahman <lah...@vivanet.com>
writes:
>cobra wrote:
>>
>> Ken Griffey says, "...there are players in this clubhouse who want
>> to defer money to free up something now. Management won't do it."
>>
>> Doesn't Griffey know that Baseball's collective bargaining agreement
>> with the Player's Union does not allow teams to restructure player
>> contracts? Obviously not. Mr. Griffey needs to know what the hell he
>> is talking about before he opens his big, fat yap.
>
>know what you're talking about.
I've never heard that. I've always heard the Union dissallows
anything of the sort.
>
>> Griffey is slowly and surely revealing himself to be a big, whining,
>> sniveling crybaby. He needs to pull up his Huggies, shut his damn
>> mouth and go play.
>
>If you'd read the whole story, you'd see what Griffey was talking
about.
>(see http://ESPNET.SportsZone.com/mlb/news/970723/00315343.html) He
>complained that the front office scheduled an exhibition game against
a
>class AA All-Star team in North Carolina on one of their three off
days
>for the season.
So what. He's flown across the country to go golfing on days off.
This game saved the team lotsa money and is good for their minor
leagues. They woulda had their AA team in Pourto Rico, had it not been
for this game.
He thought that was a dumb move when your team is in
>the pennant race, and I agree.
Other teams do it. It's a one inning game, tough it out. Arod had
the right mind set.
>He also complained that the team has left Randy Johnson in the lurch
by
>not trying to extend his contract, just like they did with Buhner last
>year and Griffey the year before.
>
>The whole thrust of his outburst was they have a first-place team and
a
>third-rate front office. I think he makes some good points.
>
>If you want to berate Griffey go right ahead. But your way off-base
on
>this one.
I will berate Griffey. The M's management has done overall a great
job. Griffey's national perception is a fraud. He's a extremely moody
guy who's as likely to sign your kids autograph, as he is to do what he
did this week. Just ask any of the people who work in the clubhouse. Or
any reporters. NTM-He's in no place to bitch in the slump he's in.
Hammy hurt or not, his performance has been crap. Take a day off for
godsake...
Kevin W.
Glenn A Tanner
In article <Pine.A32.3.93.970723...@lucia.u.arizona.edu>,
Matthew B. Maison <mai...@U.Arizona.EDU> wrote:
>Also entertaining was his comments on the M's exhibition game the other
>day. He had some good points, but most of it was whining. The M's played
>a AAA team the other day. Griffey was upset because the team was in the
>middle of a penant race and the players needed rest. The starters only
>played one inning, so I guess those games of catch before the game really
>wore him out. Side note: Griffey won't come close to 61.
I would guess that he's not talking about the inning -- having to take an
extra plane trip and a bus ride (?) to Zebulon, NC might not have been
the most pleasant off-day.
GT
Rick Jones
On 24 Jul 1997 14:49:58 GMT, sp...@wiley.chistech.com (Spike White)
wrote:
>Matthew B. Maison (mai...@U.Arizona.EDU) wrote:
>: Also entertaining was his comments on the M's exhibition game the other
>: day. He had some good points, but most of it was whining. The M's played
>: a AAA team the other day. Griffey was upset because the team was in the
>: middle of a penant race and the players needed rest.
>
>Exactly.
>
>What good does it do the team to play a AAA team when they've had
>back-to-back games for several days? A lot of the games were on the road.
>
>I agree that Griffey's comments ("that's the Mariners way") were probably
>counter-productive. But he was right to complain, both for himself and
>his team. Sounds like the M's management is pretty brain-dead and not
>listening to their players.
The problem has nothing to do with travel, and stems from the Mariners
releasing Griffey's brother Craig about a month and a half ago.
Griffey bitched and whined about it for weeks. Of course, Craig
Griffey was one of the worst players around, dreadful player, but Ken
was determined to play with him. THAT'S what this is all about.
>
>: The starters only played one inning, so I guess those games of catch before
>: the game really wore him out.
>
>No, I think the travel wore the team out.
>
>: Side note: Griffey won't come close to 61.
>
dlo...@inlink.com
>For some reason I doubt you'd be saying much of this stuff if it was
>Alomar,Belle or Bonds bitching at their management instead of Griffey.
>
I'm betting you're wrong except for Mr. Belle (and Mr. Belle would
never couch his arguements in terms of the team anyway. Alomar has
been a consumate Pro his whole life EXCEPT for one regretable
incident......and I believe that although Bonds is a jerk, he too is a
team player (see Deion Sanders for another example of jerk/team
player)
Graham Thurlwell
Mark Schroeder wrote:
> Actually they played the Southern League All Stars- and a name you should
> remember from that game is Juan Encarnacion- 3 dingers.
A dinger? That's a home run, right? I'm English you see...
--
Graham 'Jades' Thurlwell
Jades' Frontier First Encounters site HAS MOVED!
http://www.btinternet.com/~jades/ffe.htm
The best FFE site on the web
Sean Lahman
Eye Vee wrote:
> >He
> >complained that the front office scheduled an exhibition game against a
> >class AA All-Star team in North Carolina on one of their three off days
> >the pennant race, and I agree.
>
Three days off for the season, meaning that every other non-game day is
a travel day.
Sean Lahman
dlo...@inlink.com wrote:
> I'm betting you're wrong except for Mr. Belle (and Mr. Belle would
> never couch his arguements in terms of the team anyway. Alomar has
> been a consumate Pro his whole life EXCEPT for one regretable
> incident...
Alomar was a no show for the O's exhibition game here in Rochester two
days after the all star game. Davey Johnson didn't know where he was.
Turns out he went to Puerto Rico to be with his family after his
grandmother died. I'd have done the same thing, but I would have told
my boss I was leaving.
Chung-Hsiung Yang
call...@en.com (Eye Vee) writes:
>
> In article <33D7A3...@vivanet.com> lah...@vivanet.com writes:
> >
> >If you'd read the whole story, you'd see what Griffey was talking about.
> >(see http://ESPNET.SportsZone.com/mlb/news/970723/00315343.html) He
> >complained that the front office scheduled an exhibition game against a
> >class AA All-Star team in North Carolina on one of their three off days
> >for the season. He thought that was a dumb move when your team is in
> >the pennant race, and I agree.
>
> 3 off days at home, not for the season. Not a big difference, but somewhat.
>
> >
> >If you want to berate Griffey go right ahead. But your way off-base on
> >this one.
> >--
> >~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
> >Sean Lahman - lah...@vivanet.com
>
> Also in the AP version of the article, they asked A-Rod and Buhner about
> playing in the exhibition game.
>
> A-Rod said that " Alot of guys were complaining before er got here. But
> my attitude is that, if you're a big leaguer, you should play a big
> league game, no matter where you are."
>
> Buhner, when asked if he was tired after Tuesday's loss to Cleveland:
>
> "Nope, I'm fine."
>
> The starters only played 1 inning and then were pulled.
That was not the problem. The players got into Cleveland
at 2 am the next day. They lost the game the following game (6-2).
Of course they won the next two games against Cleveland. One *could*
argue that the fatigue affected the M's in their first game.
Yes ... I agree Griffey is whining, but he does have a point.
- Chung
Chung-Hsiung Yang
rj...@adan.kingston.net (Rick Jones) writes:
>
> On 24 Jul 1997 14:49:58 GMT, sp...@wiley.chistech.com (Spike White)
> wrote:
>
> >Matthew B. Maison (mai...@U.Arizona.EDU) wrote:
> >: Also entertaining was his comments on the M's exhibition game the other
> >: day. He had some good points, but most of it was whining. The M's played
> >: a AAA team the other day. Griffey was upset because the team was in the
> >: middle of a penant race and the players needed rest.
> >
> >Exactly.
> >
> >What good does it do the team to play a AAA team when they've had
> >back-to-back games for several days? A lot of the games were on the road.
> >
> >I agree that Griffey's comments ("that's the Mariners way") were probably
> >counter-productive. But he was right to complain, both for himself and
> >his team. Sounds like the M's management is pretty brain-dead and not
> >listening to their players.
>
> The problem has nothing to do with travel, and stems from the Mariners
> releasing Griffey's brother Craig about a month and a half ago.
> Griffey bitched and whined about it for weeks. Of course, Craig
> Griffey was one of the worst players around, dreadful player, but Ken
> was determined to play with him. THAT'S what this is all about.
I thought it was more complex than that? Griffey (Craig) had ask
for his own release before the beginning of the year, but the M's would
not let him or dragged their feet or something. Jr. was not happy about
how the front office treated his brother. I remember that reading
in Seattle times that Jr. said something like, "we are a first rate
club run by a third rate front office. ... Why don't they just release
Craig when he asked for it?" I guess the M's front office wouldn't
let Craig go because he was under contract.
Remeber that Griffey was quite miffed when the front office wouldn't
re-sign Tino Martinez. In defense of his wining, the guy actually knows
what he is talking about. He is a baseball guy after all. Can you
imagine if Tino was still with the Mariners?
On a side note, I read today that the front office approved
$2 million to go after a big time closer either right now or
after the season. It would seem that they respect Griffey's opinion
after all.
- Chung
Kevin Wintersteen
In <840oh7q...@Eng.Sun.COM> Chung-Hsiung Yang <chy...@eng.sun.com>
writes:
>
> Remeber that Griffey was quite miffed when the front office
wouldn't
>re-sign Tino Martinez. In defense of his wining, the guy actually
knows
>what he is talking about. He is a baseball guy after all. Can you
>imagine if Tino was still with the Mariners?
>
> On a side note, I read today that the front office approved
>$2 million to go after a big time closer either right now or
>after the season. It would seem that they respect Griffey's opinion
>after all.
>
>- Chung
>
Griffey's not paid to be the GM. We'll have major problems if this
behavior persists. We couldn't afford Tino, that's just the way it is.
And He knew that, so what does whining do about it? His judgment on
personnel moves could really hurt this team in the future.
BTW-Did I read Roberto Hernandez's age at 32?
Kevin W.
Pat McLean
Matthew B. Maison <mai...@U.Arizona.EDU> wrote in article
<Pine.A32.3.93.970723...@lucia.u.arizona.edu>...
> On 23 Jul 1997, cobra wrote:
>
> > Ken Griffey says, "...there are players in this clubhouse who want
to
> > defer money to free up something now. Management won't do it."
> >
> > Doesn't Griffey know that Baseball's collective bargaining agreement
> > with the Player's Union does not allow teams to restructure player
> > contracts? Obviously not. Mr. Griffey needs to know what the hell he is
> > talking about before he opens his big, fat yap.
> >
> > Griffey is slowly and surely revealing himself to be a big, whining,
> > sniveling crybaby. He needs to pull up his Huggies, shut his damn mouth
> > and go play.
>
> Also entertaining was his comments on the M's exhibition game the other
> day. He had some good points, but most of it was whining. The M's
played
> a AAA team the other day. Griffey was upset because the team was in the
> middle of a penant race and the players needed rest. The starters only
> played one inning, so I guess those games of catch before the game really
> wore him out. Side note: Griffey won't come close to 61.
>
> ---------------------
> Matthew B. Maison
> mai...@u.arizona.edu
> University of Arizona
> http://www.u.arizona.edu/~maison
>
>
First of all, hindsight is 20/20. Why didn't management just say the CBA
prevents restructuring? And as far as the AAA game, yeah he made some dumb
comments for playing one inning. After all, all they did was fly from
Seattle to North Carolina, ride a bus for an hour and a half, play one
inning, and then get to Cleveland at 4 am with the first game of a 12 game
road trip the next day. You're right, how dare he complain about that game
of catch.
Pat McLean
Michael Cox
In article <5r8ht5$d...@news.acns.nwu.edu>, dmar...@merle.acns.nwu.edu
(David Andrew Leonardo Marasco) wrote:
> Can you imagine the shitrain that would occur if Barry or Albert said some
> of these things?
No, because these things wouldn't stand out from amongst Barry and Albert's
regularly scheduled whining.
They stand out when Griffey says them because he's normally so positive.
Other players gripe all the time, they're just not Griffey.
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Michael Cox
In article <33DA4B...@mindspring.com>, Michael Adams
<mike...@mindspring.com> wrote:
> Well, I look at this from a different perspective. I feel the game in
> NC is a good way to hook some new fans and promote the game.
(snip)
> How do you think the North Carolinians feel about baseball and Griffey
> now? Griffey's just reinforcing the public's perception of ballplayers
> as greedy millionares, and turning fans and potential fans away. The
> fans are the reason why Griffey's getting those millions.
I'm sorry, but at the same time, a player is *not* an indentured servant of
those fans. Griffey went to Zebulon, he played just like Alex "Rah-Rah"
Rodriguez, and he even signed autographs until the POLICE told him to stop.
What you may be curious about is how we in Seattle now feel about the
"fans" in North Carolina based on their behaviour toward Griffey. I know
that it has a lot to do with mob mentality, etc., but many of us think the
good people of Zebulon, who cursed Griffey for not personally signing
*their* ball, quite frankly don't deserve to have big-league players
anywhere near them.
Michael Adams
Pat McLean wrote:
> First of all, hindsight is 20/20. Why didn't management just say the CBA
> prevents restructuring? And as far as the AAA game, yeah he made some dumb
> comments for playing one inning. After all, all they did was fly from
> Seattle to North Carolina, ride a bus for an hour and a half, play one
> inning, and then get to Cleveland at 4 am with the first game of a 12 game
> road trip the next day. You're right, how dare he complain about that game
> of catch.
Well, I look at this from a different perspective. I feel the game in
NC is a good way to hook some new fans and promote the game. As we all
know, baseball is shrinking in popularity, particularly with young
people. Bringing pro teams and superstars such as Griffey to the
smaller towns is a good way to introduce people to baseball. In turn,
these youngsters/people become lifetime supporters of the game.
How do I know this happens? Because it happened to me. The Braves
would come to Tallahassee and play in an exhibition game (vs FSU) once a
year. My dad took me to see those games, and in turn I became a diehard
baseball fan. Today, living in Atlanta, I support the Braves/baseball
directly by going to the games and buying the merchandise. There is a
bigger picture that most athletes don't see.
How do you think the North Carolinians feel about baseball and Griffey
now? Griffey's just reinforcing the public's perception of ballplayers
as greedy millionares, and turning fans and potential fans away. The
fans are the reason why Griffey's getting those millions. I know, you
can argue the pennant race thing - but I can't believe that this
exhibition game hurts that much.
Ironically, the coach at FSU who helped get the Braves to come in and
play those exhibition games: Woody Woodward.
-Mike
Ted Frank
>> First of all, hindsight is 20/20. Why didn't management just say the CBA
>> prevents restructuring? And as far as the AAA game, yeah he made some dumb
>> comments for playing one inning. After all, all they did was fly from
>> Seattle to North Carolina, ride a bus for an hour and a half, play one
>> inning, and then get to Cleveland at 4 am with the first game of a 12 game
>> road trip the next day. You're right, how dare he complain about that game
>> of catch.
>
>Well, I look at this from a different perspective. I feel the game in
>NC is a good way to hook some new fans and promote the game.
I don't know what the Seattle papers are reporting, but the ones in DC
are indicating that the complaints were really Lou Piniella's, and Lou
was having Griffey make the public statements because Junior has the status
to do so.
How many fans are really attracted by seeing the Seattle Mariners in a
small ballpark in a tiny town for one inning? Meanwhile, the trip was
taken at the expense of giving the team a needed off-day in the midst of
a pennant race -- and I assure you that a Seattle Mariners pennant will
do a lot more to increase their popularity than that inning in North
Carolina did.
>How do I know this happens? Because it happened to me. The Braves
>would come to Tallahassee and play in an exhibition game (vs FSU) once a
>year.
In the middle of the season? Or in spring training?
Regardless, Tallahassee isn't ten hours out of the way for Atlanta the
way North Carolina is for Seattle.
--
m...@radix.net | http://www.radix.net/~moe
"When my critics find a message about the assassination of a prime
minister encrypted in Moby Dick, I'll believe them." -- Michael
Drosnin, author of "The Bible Codes," in Newsweek -- before he saw
<<http://cs.anu.edu.au/~bdm/dilugim/moby.html>>, presumably.
Clark
> I will berate Griffey. The M's management has done overall a great
> job. Griffey's national perception is a fraud. He's a extremely moody
> guy who's as likely to sign your kids autograph, as he is to do what he
> did this week. Just ask any of the people who work in the clubhouse. Or
> any reporters. NTM-He's in no place to bitch in the slump he's in.
> Hammy hurt or not, his performance has been crap. Take a day off for
> godsake...
>
> Kevin W.
>
> >Sean Lahman - lah...@vivanet.com
I think some of you guys need to get your facts straight before you
shred Griffey too much.
First of all, the Mariners did not release Craig Griffey.....HE ASKED to
be released, and told his brother Junior about it weeks ahead of time.
Also.....he has been distraught over the unexpected death of his
mother-in-law three weeks ago, whom at 54, he was extremely close to. He
had promised to hit a home run in her honor and it was clear by watching
him bat, that he was trying too hard. I'm sure a big load was lifted
from him after his 31st homer on friday. This may not justify everything
that was said, but as a long time Mariner fan in Seattle....there are
those of us out here who are also frustrated by the fact that the
Mariners so depleted their bullpen the last two years and have paid for
it by blowing 14 games this year after leading going into the 8th
inning.....Bottom line.....Griffey has not been himself by a long shot
the last few weeks.
........Things look like they're getting better after the sweep of the
Yankees this weekend (these two are going to meet again in the playoffs,
and what a series it will be!!), Griffey returning to normal, and the
iminent signing of solid closer!
Gary Huckabay
In article <5r8ht5$d...@news.acns.nwu.edu>,
David Andrew Leonardo Marasco <dmar...@merle.acns.nwu.edu> wrote:
>> Also entertaining was his comments on the M's exhibition game the other
>> day. He had some good points, but most of it was whining. The M's
>played
>> a AAA team the other day. Griffey was upset because the team was in the
>> middle of a penant race and the players needed rest. The starters only
>> played one inning, so I guess those games of catch before the game really
>> wore him out. Side note: Griffey won't come close to 61.
>
>of these things?
Me and three friends were having this exact same discussion. Griffey's
a Nike Icon, and obviously can do no wrong, but he's made veiled threats
about his brother making the big club, and now this. We were trying
to think of the players who would be absolutely crucified if they
tried to say HALF as much. Here's the consensus list of people who
would be crucified if they said this stuff....
10. Chuck E. Carr
9. Barry Bonds
8. Jose Canseco
7. David Cone [or any other highly visible MLBP rep]
6. Donald Fehr
5. Wil Cordero
4. Mike Morgan
3. Pedro Astacio
2. Rickey Henderson
1. Deion Sanders
--
* Gary Huckabay * "Anyone who uses an alias in a regular newsgroup or *
* "Hitting really * as their email handle is a coward, a loser, a cast *
* crappily these * member of _Friends_, or, more likely, all of the *
* days." * above. I'm convinced Weisberg is Lisa Kudrow." - AN *
David Andrew Leonardo Marasco
In article <remove.michaelc-ya024...@news.accessone.com>,
Michael Cox <remove....@accessone.com> wrote:
>In article <5r8ht5$d...@news.acns.nwu.edu>, dmar...@merle.acns.nwu.edu
>(David Andrew Leonardo Marasco) wrote:
>
>> of these things?
>
>regularly scheduled whining.
>
>They stand out when Griffey says them because he's normally so positive.
>Other players gripe all the time, they're just not Griffey.
Well, I guess that settles the question of whether or not MLB players post
to R.S.BB... Michael Cox is false name for a player who has played with
Belle, Bonds and Griffey and knows them well.
Ok, that was cheap. But see if you can see my point here Michael...
I questioned what would happen if a person like Belle or Bonds said what
Griffey said. I think that we would all agree that the media would jump
down their throats.
I think that the press has a grudge against certain players, and is willing
to let things slide for others. With Griffey it stuck in my craw because
I've seen the Mariners several times over the past few years and Griffey
hasn't exactly been fan-friendly. Heck, maybe I just caught him on bad
days, but what I saw certainly doesn't match what we always get from the
media... That Jr. is just the greastest guy around.
Now you come back and tell us that Barry and Albert whine all of the time
and that this just isn't the case with Ken. I'm saying that I think there
is a media bias against Bonds and Belle, and it doesn't apply to Griffey.
Unless you know these men personally, where does your information on
whether or not these guys are whiners come from???
Craig Wright (?) wrote an excellent article on Dick Allen's reputation
as a trouble maker a few years back. Given the journalistic level of
sports reporting, this article ought to be required reading.
Michael, I don't mean to slam you here, I just want to point out that your
sources could have one heck of a bias involved. What's your feedback?
David Marasco mar...@nwu.edu http://pubweb.nwu.edu/~dmarasco
"An object at rest cannot be stopped." - The Tick
Boatdriver
Michael Adams wrote:
>
> How do you think the North Carolinians feel about baseball and Griffey
> > now? Griffey's just reinforcing the public's perception of ballplayers as greedy millionares, and turning fans and potential fans away.
You have got it just right!
Three Cedars
> >> Also entertaining was his comments on the M's exhibition game the other
> >> day. He had some good points, but most of it was whining. The M's
> >played
> >> a AAA team the other day. Griffey was upset because the team was in the
> >> middle of a penant race and the players needed rest. The starters only
> >> played one inning, so I guess those games of catch before the game really
> >> wore him out. Side note: Griffey won't come close to 61.
> >
> >of these things?
>
> a Nike Icon, and obviously can do no wrong, but he's made veiled threats
> about his brother making the big club, and now this. We were trying
> to think of the players who would be absolutely crucified if they
> tried to say HALF as much. Here's the consensus list of people who
> would be crucified if they said this stuff....
>
> 10. Chuck E. Carr
> 9. Barry Bonds
> 8. Jose Canseco
> 7. David Cone [or any other highly visible MLBP rep]
> 6. Donald Fehr
> 5. Wil Cordero
> 4. Mike Morgan
> 3. Pedro Astacio
> 2. Rickey Henderson
> 1. Deion Sanders
>
> --
> * Gary Huckabay * "Anyone who uses an alias in a regular newsgroup or *
> * "Hitting really * as their email handle is a coward, a loser, a cast *
> * crappily these * member of _Friends_, or, more likely, all of the *
> * days." * above. I'm convinced Weisberg is Lisa Kudrow." - AN *
-----Do any of those guys cough up part of their paychecks to help pay
the salaries of new acquisitions?
Three Cedars
David Andrew Leonardo Marasco wrote:
>
> In article <remove.michaelc-ya024...@news.accessone.com>,
> Michael Cox <remove....@accessone.com> wrote:
> >In article <5r8ht5$d...@news.acns.nwu.edu>, dmar...@merle.acns.nwu.edu
> >(David Andrew Leonardo Marasco) wrote:
> >
> >> of these things?
> >
----Get real David! If Griffey walked around all of the time with a
smile pasted across his kisser, someone would be holding out a belted
white coat ready for the wearing with his name on it!!! So what if he
gets paid mega bucks to please the crowds, he's still a human being, not
superman!!!
Michael Cox
In article <5rhc14$p...@news.acns.nwu.edu>, dmar...@merle.acns.nwu.edu
(David Andrew Leonardo Marasco) wrote:
(too much crap to even quote, but the gist:
Point #1: Every grumbling from Belle or Bonds provokes a "shitrain", while
Griffey somehow gets away with it, despite large numbers of reporters
charting his every move.
Point #2: The only way that point #1 could be realistically argued would be
to know the three men personally)
My source for everything is *exactly* the same as yours- the press (that
is, unless *you're* claiming to know the men) and from the evidence
available, I'd say I'm closer to the truth than you.
'Nuff said.
Three Cedars
Thank you, Clark!!! You expressed my thinking exactly! Besides which,
59 at bats without a homer, while still chalking up RBIs and hits is not
exactly a slump!
Mona
Three Cedars wrote:
> > >> Also entertaining was his comments on the M's exhibition game the other
> > >> day. He had some good points, but most of it was whining. The M's
> > >played
> > >> a AAA team the other day. Griffey was upset because the team was in the
> > >> middle of a penant race and the players needed rest. The starters only
> > >> played one inning, so I guess those games of catch before the game really
> > >> wore him out. Side note: Griffey won't come close to 61.
> > >
> > >of these things?
> >
> > a Nike Icon, and obviously can do no wrong, but he's made veiled threats
> > about his brother making the big club, and now this. We were trying
> > to think of the players who would be absolutely crucified if they
> > tried to say HALF as much. Here's the consensus list of people who
> > would be crucified if they said this stuff....
> >
> > 10. Chuck E. Carr
> > 9. Barry Bonds
> > 8. Jose Canseco
> > 7. David Cone [or any other highly visible MLBP rep]
> > 6. Donald Fehr
> > 5. Wil Cordero
> > 4. Mike Morgan
> > 3. Pedro Astacio
> > 2. Rickey Henderson
> > 1. Deion Sanders
> >
> > --
> > * Gary Huckabay * "Anyone who uses an alias in a regular newsgroup or *
> > * "Hitting really * as their email handle is a coward, a loser, a cast *
> > * crappily these * member of _Friends_, or, more likely, all of the *
> > * days." * above. I'm convinced Weisberg is Lisa Kudrow." - AN *
>
> -----Do any of those guys cough up part of their paychecks to help pay
> the salaries of new acquisitions?
Not Bonds that's for sure. He even wanted to have his child support
payments cut when baseball went on strike. As if, with all his
millions he couldn't afford to pay child support.
Mona
Mona
Glenn A Tanner wrote:
>
> In article <5r604l$8...@ratty.wolfe.net>, cobra <co...@wolfenet.com> wrote:
> > Ken Griffey says, "...there are players in this clubhouse who want to
> >defer money to free up something now. Management won't do it."
> >
> > Doesn't Griffey know that Baseball's collective bargaining agreement
> >with the Player's Union does not allow teams to restructure player
> >contracts? Obviously not. Mr. Griffey needs to know what the hell he is
> >talking about before he opens his big, fat yap.
>
> Hibbard to restructure. What's up with that?
>
> > Griffey is slowly and surely revealing himself to be a big, whining,
> >sniveling crybaby. He needs to pull up his Huggies, shut his damn mouth
> >and go play.
>
> chemistry on that team!!! Since the Mariners need pitching, they should
> trade him to Texas for Bobby Witt and Ken Hill!!! The Rangers would
> probably even throw in Will Clark, a guy who knows how to win and is a
> great clubhouse presence, not to mention a professional hitter.
>
> GT
It constantly amazes me that a player is the darling of baseball until
he opens his mouth when his production is down. He is now the scourge
of baseball. But, let him start producing again (at the rate we think
he should) and then he's the star again.
Mona
Kevin Wintersteen
In <5r639a$f...@news.Hawaii.Edu> tan...@Hawaii.Edu (Glenn A Tanner)
writes:
>
>He is. He's a damn clubhouse cancer is what he is!! He's ruining the
>chemistry on that team!!! Since the Mariners need pitching, they
should
>trade him to Texas for Bobby Witt and Ken Hill!!! The Rangers would
>probably even throw in Will Clark, a guy who knows how to win and is a
>great clubhouse presence, not to mention a professional hitter.
Please, tell me your trolling. Will Clark sucks, btw. He's overated
and oft-injured. Why would anyone want him?
Kevin W.
>
>
>
>GT
>
That Boy
As I lay dying, Mona (erl...@ix.netcom.com) whispered:
: Not Bonds that's for sure. He even wanted to have his child support
: payments cut when baseball went on strike. As if, with all his
: millions he couldn't afford to pay child support.
Actually, Bonds was trying to keep his child support from
increasing and was already paying a paltry $25,000 a month. Other
than that, your version is correct. Heck, for that much, I'd like to
be Barry's kid. ;)
Augmentingly,
Hyoun
--
\_____________ "...if you allow yourself to feel \_a___________
\_____________ the way you really feel, maybe you \___m___s_____
\_____________ won't be afraid of that feeling \_____a___a___
\_____________ anymore." \_______t___i_
\_____________ tori amos \_________e___
\_____________ \_____________
hyoun park '98 hjp...@amherst.edu http://www.amherst.edu/~hjpark
dlo...@inlink.com
On 29 Jul 97 17:16:03 GMT, hjp...@unix.amherst.edu (That Boy) wrote:
>As I lay dying, Mona (erl...@ix.netcom.com) whispered:
>
>: Not Bonds that's for sure. He even wanted to have his child support
>: payments cut when baseball went on strike. As if, with all his
>: millions he couldn't afford to pay child support.
>
> Actually, Bonds was trying to keep his child support from
>increasing and was already paying a paltry $25,000 a month. Other
>than that, your version is correct. Heck, for that much, I'd like to
>be Barry's kid. ;)
>
Gee, my mom got $35/week from my dad and that NEVER went up in a 9
year span..................$25,000/month MANDATED is ungodly
ridiculous bullshit for child support.........
>
>Augmentingly,
>Hyoun
Annoying, bandwidth eating signature snipped.
Sean Lahman
Mona wrote:
> Not Bonds that's for sure. He even wanted to have his child support
> payments cut when baseball went on strike. As if, with all his
> millions he couldn't afford to pay child support.
Actually, it was his alimony payments. They were supposed to be a
percentage of each paycheck, and since he wasn't getting paid, he didn't
want to have to pay them out of his pocket. We're talking about
hundreds of thousands of dollars here, not a trivial amount even if he
does have millions of dollars stuffed in his mattress.
Sean Lahman
Brent Morris
Griffey has snakes in his head. Most overrated player in baseball
history...
Matthew B. Maison
On Tue, 29 Jul 1997, Mona wrote:
> Not Bonds that's for sure. He even wanted to have his child support
> payments cut when baseball went on strike. As if, with all his
> millions he couldn't afford to pay child support.
He probably pays millions in child support.
> Mona
Three Cedars
Mona wrote:
>
> Glenn A Tanner wrote:
> >
> > In article <5r604l$8...@ratty.wolfe.net>, cobra <co...@wolfenet.com> wrote:
> > > Ken Griffey says, "...there are players in this clubhouse who want to
> > >defer money to free up something now. Management won't do it."
> > >
> > > Doesn't Griffey know that Baseball's collective bargaining agreement
> > >with the Player's Union does not allow teams to restructure player
> > >contracts? Obviously not. Mr. Griffey needs to know what the hell he is
> > >talking about before he opens his big, fat yap.
> >
> > I had the same thought, but then I saw that he said that they asked Greg
> > Hibbard to restructure. What's up with that?
> >
> > > Griffey is slowly and surely revealing himself to be a big, whining,
> > >sniveling crybaby. He needs to pull up his Huggies, shut his damn mouth
> > >and go play.
> >
> > chemistry on that team!!! Since the Mariners need pitching, they should
> > trade him to Texas for Bobby Witt and Ken Hill!!! The Rangers would
> > probably even throw in Will Clark, a guy who knows how to win and is a
> > great clubhouse presence, not to mention a professional hitter.
> >
>
> It constantly amazes me that a player is the darling of baseball until
> he opens his mouth when his production is down. He is now the scourge
> of baseball. But, let him start producing again (at the rate we think
> he should) and then he's the star again.
>
> Mona
You know, Mona, his production is only down from overblown expectations.
He is still doing a good job, getting the hits and RBIs---it is not
exactly a dead drought. But you are correct in your estimation of the
fickleness of fans. kate
Three Cedars
dlo...@inlink.com wrote:
>
> On 29 Jul 97 17:16:03 GMT, hjp...@unix.amherst.edu (That Boy) wrote:
>
> >As I lay dying, Mona (erl...@ix.netcom.com) whispered:
> >
> >: payments cut when baseball went on strike. As if, with all his
> >: millions he couldn't afford to pay child support.
> >
> >increasing and was already paying a paltry $25,000 a month. Other
> >than that, your version is correct. Heck, for that much, I'd like to
> >be Barry's kid. ;)
> >
> Gee, my mom got $35/week from my dad and that NEVER went up in a 9
> year span..................$25,000/month MANDATED is ungodly
> ridiculous bullshit for child support.........
> >
> >Augmentingly,
> >Hyoun
> Annoying, bandwidth eating signature snipped.
From those to whom much is given, much is expected.
Three Cedars
Brent Morris wrote:
>
> Griffey has snakes in his head. Most overrated player in baseball
> history...
Perhaps, but I'd take a clubhouse full of Griffeys and I'd wager a lot
of other teams would too. kate
Three Cedars
AMEN!
Three Cedars
Kevin Wintersteen wrote:
>
> In <5r639a$f...@news.Hawaii.Edu> tan...@Hawaii.Edu (Glenn A Tanner)
> writes:
>
> >
> >chemistry on that team!!! Since the Mariners need pitching, they
> should
> >trade him to Texas for Bobby Witt and Ken Hill!!! The Rangers would
> >probably even throw in Will Clark, a guy who knows how to win and is a
> >great clubhouse presence, not to mention a professional hitter.
>
> and oft-injured. Why would anyone want him?
>
> Kevin W.
>
> >
> >
> >
> >GT
him traded to and not the Mariner's. kate
David Nieporent
In article <33DDE9...@ix.netcom.com>, Mona <erl...@ix.netcom.com> wrote:
>Three Cedars wrote:
>> Gary Huckabay wrote:
>> > Me and three friends were having this exact same discussion. Griffey's
>> > a Nike Icon, and obviously can do no wrong, but he's made veiled threats
>> > about his brother making the big club, and now this. We were trying
>> > to think of the players who would be absolutely crucified if they
>> > tried to say HALF as much. Here's the consensus list of people who
>> > would be crucified if they said this stuff....
>> > 10. Chuck E. Carr
>> > 9. Barry Bonds
>> > 8. Jose Canseco
>> > 7. David Cone [or any other highly visible MLBP rep]
>> > 6. Donald Fehr
>> > 5. Wil Cordero
>> > 4. Mike Morgan
>> > 3. Pedro Astacio
>> > 2. Rickey Henderson
>> > 1. Deion Sanders
>> -----Do any of those guys cough up part of their paychecks to help pay
>> the salaries of new acquisitions?
Does any baseball player? Griffey claims he "would," but that's easy to
claim when you don't actually have to.
>Not Bonds that's for sure. He even wanted to have his child support
>payments cut when baseball went on strike. As if, with all his
>millions he couldn't afford to pay child support.
Wrong. And I think this proves the point Gary was trying to make. People
make up facts based on half-remembered stories because they don't like
players.
His ex petitioned to have HER support, not the child support, increased.
That's why he was in court. His argument, quite correctly, was that his
salary was lower -- nonexistent, actually -- so he sure shouldn't be
paying MORE.
And in case you didn't understand, support is based on salary. If you
make less, you pay less. It has nothing to do with what he can "afford."
He can "afford" to give a million dollars to the clerk at the video store.
--
David M. Nieporent Deserves it? I daresay he does. Many who live
Niep...@pluto.njcc.com deserve death. And some who die deserve life. Can
Hampshire/Plainsboro, NJ you give it to them? Then be not so quick to give
ORIOLES 1997!!??!!!! the other. For not even the wise can see all ends.
Three Cedars
David Andrew Leonardo Marasco wrote:
>
> Pine.A32.3.93.970723...@lucia.u.arizona.edu>...
> >
> >
> >
> > Also entertaining was his comments on the M's exhibition game the other
> > day. He had some good points, but most of it was whining. The M's
> played
> > a AAA team the other day. Griffey was upset because the team was in the
> > middle of a penant race and the players needed rest. The starters only
> > played one inning, so I guess those games of catch before the game really
> > wore him out. Side note: Griffey won't come close to 61.
>
> Can you imagine the shitrain that would occur if Barry or Albert said some
> of these things?
>
> "An object at rest cannot be stopped." - The Tick
Does Barry or Albert cough up part of their paycheck so that the boys in
the office can pay the salaries of new acquisitions?
David Andrew Leonardo Marasco
In article <remove.michaelc-ya024...@news.accessone.com>,
Michael Cox <remove....@accessone.com> wrote:
>(David Andrew Leonardo Marasco) wrote:
>
>(too much crap to even quote, but the gist:
>Point #1: Every grumbling from Belle or Bonds provokes a "shitrain", while
>Griffey somehow gets away with it, despite large numbers of reporters
>charting his every move.
>Point #2: The only way that point #1 could be realistically argued would be
>to know the three men personally)
>
>My source for everything is *exactly* the same as yours- the press (that
>is, unless *you're* claiming to know the men) and from the evidence
>available, I'd say I'm closer to the truth than you.
Hi Michael,
Yup, that's my point exactly. Since neither you nor I know Bonds, Belle
or Ken personally, we have to rely on the press. Turn on WGN and listen
to Hawk and Whimpy call a game sometime. Let's face it, most in the
sports reporting business aren't exactly the type who would be able to
track down Watergate. After reading Craig Wright's piece on Dick Allen,
I see no reason to believe anything the press says about the character
of any player. These people have biases and quite frankly, more than
a few run vendettas against certain players.
You choose to believe these sources. I don't. It's that simple.
David Marasco mar...@nwu.edu http://pubweb.nwu.edu/~dmarasco
David Andrew Leonardo Marasco
In article <33DD63...@worldnet.att.net>,<snip>
>> I think that the press has a grudge against certain players, and is willing
>> to let things slide for others. With Griffey it stuck in my craw because
>> I've seen the Mariners several times over the past few years and Griffey
>> hasn't exactly been fan-friendly. Heck, maybe I just caught him on bad
>> days, but what I saw certainly doesn't match what we always get from the
>> media... That Jr. is just the greastest guy around.
>
>----Get real David! If Griffey walked around all of the time with a
>smile pasted across his kisser, someone would be holding out a belted
>white coat ready for the wearing with his name on it!!! So what if he
I already noted that perhaps I caught him on bad days, but... This is
about 1/2 dozen games worth of watching. Not once did he wave, sign
an autograph or try to connect with the crowd at any time. Perhaps
he has had some bad things happen at Comiskey and has decided "screw
Chicago." I don't know.
It certainly doesn't jive with how the media portrays him.
>gets paid mega bucks to please the crowds, he's still a human being, not
>superman!!!
If a player going through a very nasty and public divorce gave up on a
flyball as a homer only to have it drop in as a hit, I would consider
that to be part of being a human being. Others would bring it up again
and again. Like I said, I think there is a double standard going on.
Dave Eisen
In article <5rk1eo$3...@news.acns.nwu.edu>,>I already noted that perhaps I caught him [ Griffey ]
>on bad days, but... This is about 1/2 dozen games worth of
>watching. Not once did he wave, sign an autograph or try to
>connect with the crowd at any time.
Whereas at the last Giants game I caught, Barry Bonds had this
whole thing going with an elderly woman wearing a Giants cap sitting
in the row in front of me right behind the Giants' dugout. She
waved, he smiled at her. He struck out a critical moment of the
game and she yelled "It's OK, Barry. We still love you." He looked
up and gave her a little wave.
I swear. I thought they were going back to her place together
after the game.
Maybe Bonds isn't the beast the press presents him as.
--
Dave Eisen Sequoia Peripherals: (415) 967-5644
dke...@netcom.com FAX: (415) 967-5648
There's something in my library to offend everybody.
--- Washington Coalition Against Censorship
Dave Eisen
Hate to follow up my own post, but...
In article <5rm86j$7...@shellx.best.com>, Dave Eisen <dke...@best.com> wrote:
>
>Whereas at the last Giants game I caught, Barry Bonds had this
>whole thing going with an elderly woman wearing a Giants cap sitting
>in the row in front of me right behind the Giants' dugout. She
>waved, he smiled at her. He struck out a critical moment of the
>game and she yelled "It's OK, Barry. We still love you." He looked
>up and gave her a little wave.
>
My date for the game and I were just discussing this
and she reminded me that the woman in fact said
"Don't worry, sweetie." Historical accuracy is important
in this kind of situation.
Wayne Mays
To:
Mr. Maison from Arizona:
Maybe your Major League team's best hitter will get the elusive #61. Oh
I'm sorry you don't have a Major League team.
Dave Paisley
niep...@pluto.njcc.com (David Nieporent) wrote:
> >> Gary Huckabay wrote:
>
> >> > Me and three friends were having this exact same discussion. Griffey's
> >> > a Nike Icon, and obviously can do no wrong, but he's made veiled threats
> >> > about his brother making the big club, and now this. We were trying
> >> > to think of the players who would be absolutely crucified if they
> >> > tried to say HALF as much. Here's the consensus list of people who
> >> > would be crucified if they said this stuff....
>
> >> > 10. Chuck E. Carr
> >> > 9. Barry Bonds
> >> > 8. Jose Canseco
> >> > 7. David Cone [or any other highly visible MLBP rep]
> >> > 6. Donald Fehr
> >> > 5. Wil Cordero
> >> > 4. Mike Morgan
> >> > 3. Pedro Astacio
> >> > 2. Rickey Henderson
> >> > 1. Deion Sanders
>
> >> -----Do any of those guys cough up part of their paychecks to help pay
> >> the salaries of new acquisitions?
>
> Does any baseball player? Griffey claims he "would," but that's easy to
> claim when you don't actually have to.
>
> >Not Bonds that's for sure. He even wanted to have his child support
> >payments cut when baseball went on strike. As if, with all his
> >millions he couldn't afford to pay child support.
>
> Wrong. And I think this proves the point Gary was trying to make. People
> make up facts based on half-remembered stories because they don't like
> players.
Gary mentions the Craig Griffey incident as if it was *real*
Craig Griffey was going nowhere and everyone knew it for years, Ken Jr.
included.
The week Craig Griffey was released *at his request*, was the same week
Mark McGwire hit the 540 ft home run off Randy Johnson. Johnson held a
press conference where he presented a souvenir toy bat with a cork in it
(sticking out of it, actually) to the press (after much tense buildup) and
claimed that was why McGwire was able to hit so hard. With his tongue
firmly in his cheek, he walked out. Soon after, Craig Griffey was released
and Ken Jr. held a similar tongue in cheek press conference to say how
upset he was with the club for releasing his brother.
Johnson and Griffey obviously had become very tired of the press hanging
on their every word, and this really burst the bubble. The local papers
all had a good laugh, but the cub reporters from out of town apparently
didn't get the joke and so the "Griffey is upset about Craig being
released" story continues to circle the ether. BP will prabably be
mentioning it when Griffey retires.
"Griffey is now almost an average center fielder, but that tendency to
nepotism has really cost the Mariners..."
As for the more recent remarks, Griffey has had a hell of a month. His
mother in law dying obviously hurt a lot. He said he wasn't real close
personally, but he still has to be there for his wife and kids. It's easy
to forget that players are real people with real lives and that really
awful things can be happening in their families.
The Charlton's lost a baby last year, and Norm's wife almost didn't make
it too. Not surprising that Norm had a rough patch. The only comment I
have about that kind of thing is for the player to recognize when his
preformance is hurting the team and take some time off. That seems to be
hard for players to do.
Throw in Lee Elia's prostate cancer this year and there is plenty to be
distracted by.
dave
dlo...@inlink.com
>dlo...@inlink.com wrote:
>>
>> On 29 Jul 97 17:16:03 GMT, hjp...@unix.amherst.edu (That Boy) wrote:
>>
>> >As I lay dying, Mona (erl...@ix.netcom.com) whispered:
>> >
>> >: Not Bonds that's for sure. He even wanted to have his child support
>> >: payments cut when baseball went on strike. As if, with all his
>> >: millions he couldn't afford to pay child support.
>> >
>> > Actually, Bonds was trying to keep his child support from
>> >increasing and was already paying a paltry $25,000 a month. Other
>> >than that, your version is correct. Heck, for that much, I'd like to
>> >be Barry's kid. ;)
>> >
>> Gee, my mom got $35/week from my dad and that NEVER went up in a 9
>> year span..................$25,000/month MANDATED is ungodly
>> ridiculous bullshit for child support.........
>> >
>> >Augmentingly,
>> >Hyoun
>> Annoying, bandwidth eating signature snipped.
>
>From those to whom much is given, much is expected.
Having read further down the thread, I now know the actuality was
alimony, But $25, 000/month is IMO (my opinion is rarely humble),
STILL ungodly unreasonable for child support. What could you possibly
buy FOR THE CHILD (which is what child support is for) that would run
that much every damn month......?
Dave, the badly neglected as a child
David Nieporent
In article <5rjucb$p...@news.acns.nwu.edu>,
David Andrew Leonardo Marasco <dmar...@merle.acns.nwu.edu> wrote:
>Yup, that's my point exactly. Since neither you nor I know Bonds, Belle
>or Ken personally, we have to rely on the press. Turn on WGN and listen
>to Hawk and Whimpy call a game sometime. Let's face it, most in the
>sports reporting business aren't exactly the type who would be able to
>track down Watergate.
The hotel or the scandal?
Matthew B. Maison
What the hell is this supposed to mean? I assume your talking about my
comment that Griffey won't hit 61 this year, but like a typical WebTV
post, you didn't include any of the previous post, so I can only guess. If
you are talking about my Griffey comment, try making sense before wasting
my time and bandwidth. Oh, your right, I don't own a major league team!
Gee, in that case, I guess Griffey will hit 61, I didn't even
think of that! Thanks for comin' out! Go WebTV.
Jim Mann
Mona wrote:
> Not Bonds that's for sure. He even wanted to have his child support
> payments cut when baseball went on strike. As if, with all his
> millions he couldn't afford to pay child support.
He never said he couldn't afford to pay child support.
However, his child support payments were based on a percentage of his
salary. He was making X so the court decided his payments should be Y.
Because of the strike, he made less than X, so it was perfectly
reasonable to go and ask the court to correspondingly reduce Y.
--
******************************************************************
Jim Mann jma...@REMOVETHIStransarc.com
Transarc Corporation
Technical Writer -- Encina Programming Documentation
http://www.transarc.com/~jmann/
Marriage should be a balanced stalemate between equal adversaries. --
Amelia Peabody
David Andrew Leonardo Marasco
In article <5rmpv4$mkj$1...@mars.njcc.com>,
David Nieporent <niep...@pluto.njcc.com> wrote:
>In article <5rjucb$p...@news.acns.nwu.edu>,
>David Andrew Leonardo Marasco <dmar...@merle.acns.nwu.edu> wrote:
>
>>Yup, that's my point exactly. Since neither you nor I know Bonds, Belle
>>or Ken personally, we have to rely on the press. Turn on WGN and listen
>>to Hawk and Whimpy call a game sometime. Let's face it, most in the
>>sports reporting business aren't exactly the type who would be able to
>>track down Watergate.
>
>The hotel or the scandal?
Either...
Feel free to post transcripts of Hawk and Whimpy talking to Deep Throat...
Roger Moore
niep...@pluto.njcc.com (David Nieporent) writes:
>In article <33DDE9...@ix.netcom.com>, Mona <erl...@ix.netcom.com> wrote:
>
>>> -----Do any of those guys cough up part of their paychecks to help pay
>>> the salaries of new acquisitions?
>Does any baseball player? Griffey claims he "would," but that's easy to
>claim when you don't actually have to.
Actually, Griffey didn't offer to give up part of his paycheck to help
pay for new acquisitions. He offered to have his contract restructured,
which is closer to having his paycheck deferred. Furthermore, players
are generally given a bit more when they restructure their contracts, so
it's not clear that Griffey would have wound up any worse off at all for
doing so.
--
Raj (r...@alumni.caltech.edu)
Master of Meaningless Trivia (626) 585-0144
http://www.alumni.caltech.edu/~raj/
Michael Adams
As a follow-up to this whole Griffey situation, the Braves' announcers
last night said that they believed Griffey took his off-day Monday to
fly down to Miami and open up an "All-Star Cafe". Is this true?
-Mike
THAT BOY
In a previous article, r...@alumnae.caltech.edu (Roger Moore) wrote:
->niep...@pluto.njcc.com (David Nieporent) writes:
->>In article <33DDE9...@ix.netcom.com>, Mona <erl...@ix.netcom.com> wrote:
->>>> -----Do any of those guys cough up part of their paychecks to help pay
->>>> the salaries of new acquisitions?
->>Does any baseball player? Griffey claims he "would," but that's easy to
->>claim when you don't actually have to.
->Actually, Griffey didn't offer to give up part of his paycheck to help
->pay for new acquisitions. He offered to have his contract restructured,
->which is closer to having his paycheck deferred. Furthermore, players
->are generally given a bit more when they restructure their contracts, so
->it's not clear that Griffey would have wound up any worse off at all for
->doing so.
Didn't Jeff Bagwell recently do this when the Astros were redoing
Craig Biggio's contract?
Interrogatively,
Hyoun
Brian Stromblad
In <33DDE9...@ix.netcom.com> Mona <erl...@ix.netcom.com> writes:
>
>
>Not Bonds that's for sure. He even wanted to have his child support
>payments cut when baseball went on strike. As if, with all his
>millions he couldn't afford to pay child support.
>
Bonds was paying(to my recollection) something ludicrious on the
order of $30K/month. Can't say I blame the guy.
Later,
Brian
Gary Huckabay
In article <drdjp-29079...@kirk07-2.accessone.com>,
Dave Paisley <dr...@spamless-in-seattle.accessone.com> wrote:
>Gary mentions the Craig Griffey incident as if it was *real*
>Craig Griffey was going nowhere and everyone knew it for years, Ken Jr.
>included.
>
>Soon after, Craig Griffey was released
>and Ken Jr. held a similar tongue in cheek press conference to say how
>upset he was with the club for releasing his brother.
This is not the Craig Griffey incident I was referring to.
I was referring to the incident a couple of years back where Griffey
publically suggested that Craig hadn't had an opportunity to show that
he can play baseball. He also suggested that he'd like to see
Craig get that opportunity in the big leagues.
--
* Gary Huckabay * "Anyone who uses an alias in a regular newsgroup or *
* "Hitting really * as their email handle is a coward, a loser, a cast *
* crappily these * member of _Friends_, or, more likely, all of the *
* days." * above. I'm convinced Weisberg is Lisa Kudrow." - AN *
Sean Lahman
Roger Moore wrote:
>
> Actually, Griffey didn't offer to give up part of his paycheck to help
> Furthermore, players are generally given a bit more when they
> restructure their contracts, so it's not clear that Griffey would have
> wound up any worse off at all for doing so.
The whole point of his offer was to challenge Woody's public comments
that they couldn't afford to add a player. Obviously they can, whether
the money comes from Griffey or not. His comment just served to
illustrate that the front office is not telling the whole truth.
Sean Lahman
Kevin Wintersteen
That's it todays game(Tied at 7 in the 10th) is the final straw.
The BP debacle is ofcourse not all their fault. They know they suck, so
Lou putting them in a situation to fail is a co-defendent. I can't take
this crap anymore. It's time to trade Jose Cruz. People on this NG harp
about our offense, and it is good. But not good enough to win us a WS
or even the West by itself. LF doesn't win World Series but a good BP
can. I don't know what deals are out there for Cruz, but it's time to
start looking at those offers. We would ask for more than one pitcher,
so I'm not sure what Philly, for example, could also give us. This team
won't win the west w/o major chages in the BP. It's time to bring up
Cloude, Abbott, and Franklin. I don't care how you do it but Ayala and
Charlton do not pitch again for this team. The bases have just been
loaded by Boston, BTW. I hate to trade Cruz, but thanks to the BP that
day has come. Nomar just won the game for the BoSox...
Kevin W.
David Andrew Leonardo Marasco
In article <5rmrp8$m...@mtinsc03.worldnet.att.net>,
<WWI...@worldnet.att.net> wrote:
>dr...@spamless-in-seattle.accessone.com (Dave Paisley) writes:
>
>> Craig Griffey was going nowhere and everyone knew it for years, Ken Jr.
>> included.
>
>Griffey in the org for several years after it was clear he was no prospect.
>They brought Craig to spring training, treated him well throughout. As
>Dave says, Ken's "complaint" about Craig's release appears to have been
>fully tongue in cheek.
On the other hand, it isn't like Seattle's actions here are all that
rare. Look to the fact that Bobby Bonds Jr. was still in the
Giants organization at the beginning of the year (he is now on the
DL). He was really ripping up A ball at the age of 27.
What was the highest level Bobby Jr reached with the Giants? Did he
get the same treatment that Craig got?
As another data point, look to Chris Gwynn...
Michael Cox
In article <5rjucb$p...@news.acns.nwu.edu>, dmar...@merle.acns.nwu.edu
(David Andrew Leonardo Marasco) wrote:
> Yup, that's my point exactly. Since neither you nor I know Bonds, Belle
> or Ken personally, we have to rely on the press.
(snip)
> You choose to believe these sources. I don't. It's that simple.
My original point had nada to do with whether one "believes" in "the press"
or not. It had *everything* to do with whether there would be a (your word)
"shitrain" if Bonds or Belle had said the same thing. In fact, a grasp of
how the press works is likely *more* pertinent than is any intimate
knowledge of the players.
You think yes, and you base that on some guess that Griffey is somehow
sheltered by the same press who love to nail everyone else to the wall.
I think no, and I base my thought on the prior "shitrains" generated by the
aforementioned Bonds and Belle, and the fact that many of the sources of
said "shitrains" (bitter marital disputes, chasing kids with an automobile,
etc.) were of greater magnitude than anything Griffey has done. Griffey's
comments are nothing worse than dozens and dozens and dozens of players,
ranging in character from the Bellian to the Griffeyesque, have voiced at
one time or another.
In fact, I would say that Griffey's comments have drawn *more* media
scrutiny than any similar comments in recent memory.
---------------------------------------------------------------------
The Music, Coffee and Baseball | "I Must kill the queen...
Home Page: | I Must kill the queen..."
http://www.accessone.com/~michaelc | -Reggie Jackson
mich...@accessone.com.remove
Bill Kelliher
The tragedy to today's loss is that it was emminently predictable. Lou
was jumping between bullpen pitchers like he was playing checkers. Wells
was used too early in the game, Charlton was put into the closing role.
The only relief pitcher available in the tenth inning was Hurtado. As
soon as I saw Charlton come in during the eighth inning, I knew we had
lost the game.
Here's what happens next (if recent history is any reliable predictor)
The Mariners will most likely get Hernandez from the White Sox (although
the Tacoma Tribune is saying that it will be Slocumb from Boston). I
think Hernandez will be the rent-a-closer for two reasons 1) Woody
Woodward does not want to give Cruz up for anybody 2) Reinsdorf also
owns the Chicago Bulls and will be paying huge amounts of money to
Jordan and Phil Jackson next year. Reinsdorf has written the White Sox
off for the year. They maybe able to win the Central, but they won't be
able to get past Baltimore, therefore there is no way the White Sox will
make it to the World Series, but the Bulls can make it back to the NBA
Championship. Reinsdorf will take several million in cash for Hernandez
and avoid paying his salary. Hernandez will be our new closer. Mark
Holzemer will be sent down to Tacoma to make room for Hernandez on the
roster. (Charlton should be given his outright release if you ask me.)
Charlton will be moved to set up man and will cost us several games. On
August 15th (or there abouts) Charlton will receive his unconditional
release and Mark Holzemer will be called back up.
If Charlton is still wearing a Mariners uniform Friday night, it will
prove that Griffey was right about the front office. If you burn your
hand on a frying pan once, you should learn your lesson. But today Lou
burned his hand for the 1000th time. Lou was probably trying to give
Norm a chance to prove whether or not he still had big-league stuff
today. I think Norm showed that he's lost his stuff. I don't see how a
first class front office can rationally hang onto this guy. Norm should
be cut loose. I'd hang onto Holzemer, he's got a career in front of him
not behind him and let Norm go. Maybe Boston'll pick Norm up. Hey, they
picked Chris (no knees) Bosio up. Norm's work is done in Seattle.
Dylan Bumbarger
ste...@ix.netcom.com(Kevin Wintersteen) wrote:
: That's it todays game(Tied at 7 in the 10th) is the final straw.
:The BP debacle is ofcourse not all their fault. They know they suck, so
:Lou putting them in a situation to fail is a co-defendent. I can't take
:this crap anymore. It's time to trade Jose Cruz. People on this NG harp
:about our offense, and it is good. But not good enough to win us a WS
:or even the West by itself. LF doesn't win World Series but a good BP
:can. I don't know what deals are out there for Cruz, but it's time to
:start looking at those offers. We would ask for more than one pitcher,
:so I'm not sure what Philly, for example, could also give us. This team
:won't win the west w/o major chages in the BP. It's time to bring up
:Cloude, Abbott, and Franklin. I don't care how you do it but Ayala and
:Charlton do not pitch again for this team. The bases have just been
:loaded by Boston, BTW. I hate to trade Cruz, but thanks to the BP that
:day has come. Nomar just won the game for the BoSox...
For those of you on the other newsgroup, BP in this case means
"bullpen". Some people on this group aren't exactly enamoured with
the book, but aren't paranoid enough to blame it for the bullpen
problems. Yet.
Kevin, what you want to do is like using a bazooka on an ingrown
toenail. I missed the game and had to check the game log to find out
what happened, but it looked to me that there were two very obvious
things that Lou did that lost the game:
1. He used Charlton, not only the worst pitcher on the team but
probably worse than anyone at Tacoma; and
2. he panicked when his pitchers didn't look as dominating as RJ.
(ignored -> they still would have won even with all that if Alex makes
a good throw, but never mind)
1 is obvious, and is killing the team; 2 is hurting just as much.
From what I read at first, it sounded like Bob Wells was just getting
shelled. I look at the PBP--a double, an out, and a bunt single.
That's just not enough evidence that he didn't have it. The two games
he saved, Piniella had no one throwing in the 'pen behind him at any
time, even when he got in major trouble in NY. Today, it looked like
he couldn't jerk him fast enough. Same with Oliveras (lefty/righty in
the sixth inning is insane), same with Lira, same with Ayala--when
it's obvious they won't come in and start throwing 1-2-3 innings, he
panics, no matter what the lead. This should have burned him Saturday
pulling Wolcott (lefty/righty in the fifth inning is even more insane)
because of a bloop double. I mean, he thinks he's going to get four
shutout innings from this bullpen? Get real. With this offense, the
bullpen only has to bleed less than that of the other team. So Wells
gives up a couple of runs in two innings--you still win the game. Lou
seems to be in Nasty Boys mode--if you don't shut 'em out, you're not
doing the job.
My long-winded point: THIS is much more important than whether the
M's get a closer. If they get the second coming of Gossage, and Lou
keeps using Charlton, and he keeps panicking with the lead, a closer
isn't going to make much of a difference--they'll just be blowing more
games in the seventh and eighth instead. He'll use them differently
with a closer, you say? Not bloody likely. He's already had every
reason to stop using Sheriff Roscoe, and hasn't, and Ayala won't be
any more consistent pitching in the seventh and eighth.
OTOH, if they get rid of Charlton, and (as a bonus) Lou stops this
nonsense with everyone else, that will make a tremendous difference to
the 'pen, at MUCH, MUCH LESS COST, even with Whosit as the closer.
Figure the bullpen's ERA without Norm's 41 ERs in 44 innings--and
don't tell me they can't do better than that--that'll be good enough
to win with this offense.
Also, note the Cruz was a reason they even had such a big lead to blow
today, and I'll bet that's the case with a lot of these blown games.
The bullpen looks so bad because the offense is giving them so many
leads. That won't happen with Cruz gone.
Finally, I'm staying optimistic. With all this crap that's gone on,
we still lead in the West. It's not yet too late for Lou to right
himself.
So, while a deal may be taking place as I write this, I don't think
it's the answer. And if Cruz gets traded, I give up......
Kevin Wintersteen
In <5rouf5$i...@dfw-ixnews6.ix.netcom.com> dbum...@ix.netcom.com (Dylan
Bumbarger) writes:
>
>ste...@ix.netcom.com(Kevin Wintersteen) wrote:
>
>For those of you on the other newsgroup, BP in this case means
>"bullpen". Some people on this group aren't exactly enamoured with
>the book, but aren't paranoid enough to blame it for the bullpen
>problems. Yet.
I kinda like the Prospectus, but god they flop on some predictions.
>Kevin, what you want to do is like using a bazooka on an ingrown
>toenail. I missed the game and had to check the game log to find out
>what happened, but it looked to me that there were two very obvious
>things that Lou did that lost the game:
You must've never had one. It hurts like hell. ;)
>1. He used Charlton, not only the worst pitcher on the team but
>probably worse than anyone at Tacoma; and
>2. he panicked when his pitchers didn't look as dominating as RJ.
Your right. If Bill Plummer had pulled this stunt, he would have
been lynched at the airport on arrival. Greg McCarthy and Ken Cloude
should replace Tweedle Dumb and Tweedle Dee in the 'pen.
>(ignored -> they still would have won even with all that if Alex makes
>a good throw, but never mind)
I agree on that point. That error shouldn't have been in position
to make a difference.
>1 is obvious, and is killing the team; 2 is hurting just as much.
>From what I read at first, it sounded like Bob Wells was just getting
>shelled. I look at the PBP--a double, an out, and a bunt single.
>That's just not enough evidence that he didn't have it.
I listened, it wasn't like he was getting hit hard at all. Another "Lou
move."
The two games
>he saved, Piniella had no one throwing in the 'pen behind him at any
>time, even when he got in major trouble in NY. Today, it looked like
>he couldn't jerk him fast enough. Same with Oliveras (lefty/righty in
>the sixth inning is insane), same with Lira,
Lou lost this game for us. It's getting to be ridiculous with him
and Ayala and Charlton. Those two idiots can do know wrong while one
walk gets anyone else pulled. Everyone else can see that, why can't
he???
same with Ayala--when
>it's obvious they won't come in and start throwing 1-2-3 innings, he
>panics, no matter what the lead.
I don't know about Bobby. Any pitcher who can only throw one good
inning isn't a good pitcher. He's at best the fourth/fifth guy on a
adequate 'pen.
This should have burned him Saturday
>pulling Wolcott (lefty/righty in the fifth inning is even more insane)
>because of a bloop double. I mean, he thinks he's going to get four
>shutout innings from this bullpen? Get real.
He seemed to think that today. You can't try that w/ this 'pen.
Once you find a guy that has it going, leave him alone! Lou burnt throw
3 guys to blow this game w/ Bobby and Norm.
>My long-winded point: THIS is much more important than whether the
>M's get a closer. If they get the second coming of Gossage, and Lou
>keeps using Charlton, and he keeps panicking with the lead, a closer
>isn't going to make much of a difference--they'll just be blowing more
>games in the seventh and eighth instead. He'll use them differently
>with a closer, you say? Not bloody likely. He's already had every
>reason to stop using Sheriff Roscoe, and hasn't, and Ayala won't be
>any more consistent pitching in the seventh and eighth.
We need more than one guy, ofcourse. Assume we get two studs, and
then drop Norms role and hold Bobby to "one" inning! How would that
work. I could see us winning the west with that 'pen. I can't see us
winning anything the way it is.
>OTOH, if they get rid of Charlton, and (as a bonus) Lou stops this
>nonsense with everyone else, that will make a tremendous difference to
>the 'pen, at MUCH, MUCH LESS COST, even with Whosit as the closer.
>Figure the bullpen's ERA without Norm's 41 ERs in 44 innings--and
>don't tell me they can't do better than that--that'll be good enough
>to win with this offense.
No! No! No! Charlton has blown 8 saves, that leaves many a shitty
outing to go around. You could easily attribute 25+ blown games on this
'pen. I'm talking about games we should have won. Games where we had
3-4-5 run leads in the 7th, 8th or 9th. These guys are the worst in the
majors, and w/o major overahaul Cali will win the west.
>Also, note the Cruz was a reason they even had such a big lead to blow
>today, and I'll bet that's the case with a lot of these blown games.
>The bullpen looks so bad because the offense is giving them so many
>leads. That won't happen with Cruz gone.
What??? Yeah, and we lost the friggin' game!!!! Offense doesn't
win you anything of importance. If we had one competent guy to throw at
Boston that game is a "W". And yes, if Cruz is traded for a stud
reliever it would happen. If that's what it takes, do it..
>Finally, I'm staying optimistic. With all this crap that's gone on,
>we still lead in the West. It's not yet too late for Lou to right
>himself.
Ignorance must be bliss, cause Cali has caught us. They've played
better than us the last month and they are the better team, to boot.
What makes you think anything will change??? It's 100+ games into the
season, you wouldn't give Charlton the same chance.
>So, while a deal may be taking place as I write this, I don't think
>it's the answer. And if Cruz gets traded, I give up......
Look, if that's what it takes, so be it. I will not watch this team
blow this season w/o doing the best to fix it's one need.
Kevin W. P.S.-How many times this season have you walked away from
an M's loss saying "That's the most pathetic loss I've ever seen." WS
teams fans don't have to say that often.
Kevin W.
>
David Peng
Kevin Wintersteen (ste...@ix.netcom.com) wrote:
: What??? Yeah, and we lost the friggin' game!!!! Offense doesn't
: win you anything of importance. If we had one competent guy to throw at
: Boston that game is a "W". And yes, if Cruz is traded for a stud
: reliever it would happen. If that's what it takes, do it..
It's funny - for years the Mariners were the dogs of the west, but now
that they've got talent, the fans can't wait to trade it away. :)
There's nothing wrong with making trades, but you don't want to give away
a player that could be productive for 6 more years to get a relief
pitcher to win just THIS year.
: Ignorance must be bliss, cause Cali has caught us. They've played
: better than us the last month and they are the better team, to boot.
: What makes you think anything will change??? It's 100+ games into the
: season, you wouldn't give Charlton the same chance.
And we're gonna catch ya too! BWAHAHAHAHA -- er, sorry.
: Look, if that's what it takes, so be it. I will not watch this team
: blow this season w/o doing the best to fix it's one need.
Careful what you wish for. Short-sighted moves often mean long term
suffering. Trust me - I'm an Angel fan, and I know of what I speaketh.
d.
Gary Huckabay
In article <5rouf5$i...@dfw-ixnews6.ix.netcom.com>,
Dylan Bumbarger <dbum...@ix.netcom.com> wrote:
>ste...@ix.netcom.com(Kevin Wintersteen) wrote:
>
>:This team
>:won't win the west w/o major chages in the BP. It's time to bring up
>:Cloude, Abbott, and Franklin. I don't care how you do it but Ayala and
>:Charlton do not pitch again for this team. The bases have just been
>:loaded by Boston, BTW. I hate to trade Cruz, but thanks to the BP that
>:day has come. Nomar just won the game for the BoSox...
>
>"bullpen". Some people on this group aren't exactly enamoured with
>the book, but aren't paranoid enough to blame it for the bullpen
>problems. Yet.
Actually, I was wondering about that. There's no way that I'm gonna
be held liable for Norm Charlton's incendiary tendencies.
>OTOH, if they get rid of Charlton, and (as a bonus) Lou stops this
>nonsense with everyone else, that will make a tremendous difference to
>the 'pen, at MUCH, MUCH LESS COST, even with Whosit as the closer.
>Figure the bullpen's ERA without Norm's 41 ERs in 44 innings--and
>don't tell me they can't do better than that--that'll be good enough
>to win with this offense.
Any truth to them acquiring Billy Taylor from the A's for some lint,
the proverbial sack of wet mice, and Dan Wilson's dorm poster of some
scantily clad woman wearing a "Study hard" T-shirt?
>Finally, I'm staying optimistic. With all this crap that's gone on,
>we still lead in the West. It's not yet too late for Lou to right
>himself.
I'm wondering if Lou keeps a pitch count on Randy Johnson anymore. His
fastball has looked pretty lame those last two starts.
184 pitches? No problem. Go get 'em, Randy.
David Andrew Leonardo Marasco
In article <remove.michaelc-ya024...@news.accessone.com>,
Michael Cox <remove....@accessone.com> wrote:
>(David Andrew Leonardo Marasco) wrote:
>
>> Yup, that's my point exactly. Since neither you nor I know Bonds, Belle
>> or Ken personally, we have to rely on the press.
>
>(snip)
>
>> You choose to believe these sources. I don't. It's that simple.
>
>My original point had nada to do with whether one "believes" in "the press"
>or not. It had *everything* to do with whether there would be a (your word)
>"shitrain" if Bonds or Belle had said the same thing. In fact, a grasp of
>how the press works is likely *more* pertinent than is any intimate
>knowledge of the players.
This is my post and your initial response....
+> Can you imagine the shitrain that would occur if Barry or Albert said some
+> of these things?
+
+No, because these things wouldn't stand out from amongst Barry and Albert's
+regularly scheduled whining.
+
+They stand out when Griffey says them because he's normally so positive.
+Other players gripe all the time, they're just not Griffey.
If you had written something along the lines of,
"No, because they wouldn't stand out from amongst Barry and Albert's normal
press coverage.
They stand out when Griffey says them because his media image is normally
so positive."
then I would agree with you 100%. But that's not what you wrote. You
said that Belle and Bonds were regular whiners and that other players
simply weren't Griffey.
And since neither of us knows the players in question, it comes down
to whether or not you believe the press as far as the reputations are
concerned.
>
>You think yes, and you base that on some guess that Griffey is somehow
>sheltered by the same press who love to nail everyone else to the wall.
Strawman. My point isn't that Griffey is the only sheltered player and
that everyone else is a target. I'd say that in just about any city
there is an "untouchable" Tony Gwynn in San Diego could be taken as
another example. Also, not everyone is a target. Some players such
as Bonds and Henderson I think are targets.
>
>I think no, and I base my thought on the prior "shitrains" generated by the
>aforementioned Bonds and Belle, and the fact that many of the sources of
>said "shitrains" (bitter marital disputes, chasing kids with an automobile,
>etc.) were of greater magnitude than anything Griffey has done. Griffey's
>comments are nothing worse than dozens and dozens and dozens of players,
>ranging in character from the Bellian to the Griffeyesque, have voiced at
>one time or another.
>
>In fact, I would say that Griffey's comments have drawn *more* media
>scrutiny than any similar comments in recent memory.
I think one of the problems here is that shitrain isn't exactly a word
you will find in the dictionary. My point is that if Bonds or Belle had
said this it would be 100% negative reaction and a bunch of piling on
by the press. An example from another sport might help.
Rodman is discovered to have lost $100,000 to shady characters on a
golf course. (Not true as far as I know)
Jordan is discovered to have lost $100,000 to shady characters on a
golf course. (Not sure of the $ amount)
The first would result in a shit rain. Everyone would say "yeah, what
a bad apple."
The second wouldn't result in a shit rain, but may in the end generate
more press and publicity.
Having the Nike media machine behind you helps to protect you from
shitrains.
I hope that makes things clearer.
Chung-Hsiung Yang
dbum...@ix.netcom.com (Dylan Bumbarger) writes:
> No, but it seems like they ACQUIRED that from Toronto.
>
> I'll stay an M's fan, but it would be in the franchise's best
> interests for them to get buried this year. Piniella and Woodward
> have to be run out of there. I've been one of Lou's only defenders on
> a.s.b.s-m, and I believe he does a lot of things well, but when you
> run a bullpen so badly that you have to dump Jose Cruz as a Band-Aid,
> that blows the good stuff all out the window.
Believe it or not. I actually like Piniella. But I definitely
think that Paul Allen should also consider buying the Mariners so that
Wally Walker can be the president/general manager. He build the Sonics,
he is going to build the Seahawks. He might do a very good Job with
the Ms.
... ok I am just frustrated.
- Chung
> And Woody. Getting bested by Gord Ash. Unbelievable.
>
> And if they lose and this backfires, maybe Griffey will keep his mouth
> shut about getting help in the future.
Kevin Wintersteen
In <blakjakE...@netcom.com> bla...@netcom.com (David Peng)
writes:
>Kevin Wintersteen (ste...@ix.netcom.com) wrote:
>
>: What??? Yeah, and we lost the friggin' game!!!! Offense doesn't
>: win you anything of importance. If we had one competent guy to throw
at
>: Boston that game is a "W". And yes, if Cruz is traded for a stud
>: reliever it would happen. If that's what it takes, do it..
>
>It's funny - for years the Mariners were the dogs of the west, but now
I don'e expect or accept that from this team. The 'pen is dragging
everything down the shitter.
>that they've got talent, the fans can't wait to trade it away. :)
>There's nothing wrong with making trades, but you don't want to give
away
I don't like trading away talent. But that's how things work. Woody
can't just raise his voice and get Hernandez. Remember what a good 'pen
gets us, a WS!
>a player that could be productive for 6 more years to get a relief
>pitcher to win just THIS year.
There is no garuntee that the players on this team will have years
like this year. Remember what position Cruz plays, also.
>: Ignorance must be bliss, cause Cali has caught us. They've
played
>: better than us the last month and they are the better team, to boot.
>: What makes you think anything will change??? It's 100+ games into
the
>: season, you wouldn't give Charlton the same chance.
>
>And we're gonna catch ya too! BWAHAHAHAHA -- er, sorry.
Watch it, I'm paranoid enough as it is. ;)
>: Look, if that's what it takes, so be it. I will not watch this
team
>: blow this season w/o doing the best to fix it's one need.
>
>Careful what you wish for. Short-sighted moves often mean long term
>suffering. Trust me - I'm an Angel fan, and I know of what I
speaketh.
I hate the chance we might have to trade a possible star to get a
pitcher. I'd like to be shortsighted w/ and a WS champ, though.
Kevin W.
>d.
Dylan Bumbarger
ez02...@boris.ucdavis.edu (Gary Huckabay) wrote:
:In article <5rouf5$i...@dfw-ixnews6.ix.netcom.com>,
:Dylan Bumbarger <dbum...@ix.netcom.com> wrote:
:>ste...@ix.netcom.com(Kevin Wintersteen) wrote:
:>
:>:This team
:>:won't win the west w/o major chages in the BP. It's time to bring up
:>:Cloude, Abbott, and Franklin. I don't care how you do it but Ayala and
:>:Charlton do not pitch again for this team. The bases have just been
:>:loaded by Boston, BTW. I hate to trade Cruz, but thanks to the BP that
:>:day has come. Nomar just won the game for the BoSox...
:>
:>For those of you on the other newsgroup, BP in this case means
:>"bullpen". Some people on this group aren't exactly enamoured with
:>the book, but aren't paranoid enough to blame it for the bullpen
:>problems. Yet.
:Actually, I was wondering about that. There's no way that I'm gonna
:be held liable for Norm Charlton's incendiary tendencies.
:>OTOH, if they get rid of Charlton, and (as a bonus) Lou stops this
:>nonsense with everyone else, that will make a tremendous difference to
:>the 'pen, at MUCH, MUCH LESS COST, even with Whosit as the closer.
:>Figure the bullpen's ERA without Norm's 41 ERs in 44 innings--and
:>don't tell me they can't do better than that--that'll be good enough
:>to win with this offense.
:Any truth to them acquiring Billy Taylor from the A's for some lint,
:the proverbial sack of wet mice, and Dan Wilson's dorm poster of some
:scantily clad woman wearing a "Study hard" T-shirt?
No, but it seems like they ACQUIRED that from Toronto.
I'll stay an M's fan, but it would be in the franchise's best
interests for them to get buried this year. Piniella and Woodward
have to be run out of there. I've been one of Lou's only defenders on
a.s.b.s-m, and I believe he does a lot of things well, but when you
run a bullpen so badly that you have to dump Jose Cruz as a Band-Aid,
that blows the good stuff all out the window.
And Woody. Getting bested by Gord Ash. Unbelievable.
Kevin Wintersteen
In <5rrenf$4...@dfw-ixnews8.ix.netcom.com> dbum...@ix.netcom.com (Dylan
Bumbarger) writes:
>No, but it seems like they ACQUIRED that from Toronto.
>
>I'll stay an M's fan, but it would be in the franchise's best
>interests for them to get buried this year. Piniella and Woodward
>have to be run out of there. I've been one of Lou's only defenders on
>a.s.b.s-m, and I believe he does a lot of things well, but when you
>run a bullpen so badly that you have to dump Jose Cruz as a Band-Aid,
>that blows the good stuff all out the window.
` Explain how getting burierd is a good thing. Your assuming everyone
plays this well and is healthy next year. The 'pens "suckiness" is on
their shoulders alone. If they didn't pitch like shit in the first
place, Lou wouldn't mess with the. They cost us Cruz.(And SF trade)
>And Woody. Getting bested by Gord Ash. Unbelievable.
You don'y know that, Cruz has yet to play a full season!
>And if they lose and this backfires, maybe Griffey will keep his mouth
>shut about getting help in the future.
Hopefully he'll shut up either way.
Kevin W.
>
Dylan Bumbarger
dbum...@ix.netcom.com (Dylan Bumbarger) wrote:
::Any truth to them acquiring Billy Taylor from the A's for some lint,
::the proverbial sack of wet mice, and Dan Wilson's dorm poster of some
::scantily clad woman wearing a "Study hard" T-shirt?
:No, but it seems like they ACQUIRED that from Toronto.
That's a little hasty--Spoljaric is pretty good. But I don't see Lou
figuring out what to do with him until it's too late. And I still
think an everyday LF is worth more than some bullpen help. At best,
they probably don't gain much.
LeeAnselmo
It's pretty obvious the panic button was pushed when Chicago traded
Roberto Hernandez, Wilson Alvarez and Danny Darwin to the Giants. Chicago
wanted to dump salaries in a big way and Woody Woodward simply couldn't
afford to take on additional dollars Alvarez and Darwin make.
Woodward was only allowed to take on 2.2 million dollars. If he were
allowed to take on more salaries, the M's could've had Hernandez AND
Alvarez without giving up on Cruz, Jr. Even if they included him in the
trade, the deal would have made better sense than the one the M's ended up
making.
At least, the Mariners can use Timlin and Spoljaric for more than this
year (Alvarez and Hernandez could leave via free agency). Only question is
why they didn't go for Ricky Bottalico. If Timlin can't close for the Blue
Jays, why should one believe he can do the job for the M's?
LeeAnselmo
I know I'm not supposed to post two in a row but ... the M's got
Heathcliff Slocumb! And he blew another save tonight (a going away present
for the Red Sox)! And they gave up Jason Varitek! If people didn't know
what the word desperation was all about, the M's sure taught them tonight.
John Marshall
dbum...@ix.netcom.com (Dylan Bumbarger) wrote:
>Also, note the Cruz was a reason they even had such a big lead to blow
>today, and I'll bet that's the case with a lot of these blown games.
>The bullpen looks so bad because the offense is giving them so many
>leads. That won't happen with Cruz gone.
That may well be true, but we are going to have to deal with Ducey and
Amaral playing LF for this season and seasons to come I guess. The
lack of offense was evident today as we lost 2-1. Moyer pitched a
great game and for some reason no offense support for the guy with the
most support in the major leagues.
>
>Finally, I'm staying optimistic. With all this crap that's gone on,
>we still lead in the West. It's not yet too late for Lou to right
>himself.
Yes just barley, and since the Angels are going to be playing the much
aligned White Sox for 4 games I see our lead possibly going away,
although after six its tied in Anaheim at 11-11.
>So, while a deal may be taking place as I write this, I don't think
>it's the answer. And if Cruz gets traded, I give up......
I don't think they wanted to trade Cruz but after the White Sox sent
Hernandez, and Alvarez to SF, that may have been the onl;y deal left.
(Cruz for Timlin and Spoljaric). I used to think we could get by with
what we had but I had lost faith and felt a deal had to be done. I
had hoped something could be done without Cruz but if you take a look
at what we had left for trade bait, there isn't much.
Now is the time to rally around and hope these guys can throw some
life into this liefless bull pen. I don't see Lou changing much so I
would guees that Holzmer and Hurtado will go down to Tacoma, and maybe
Rabbe, or Zinter will be promoted, or maybe Tinsley... One can only
hope its not the latter.
As for what we got...
IP's Hits HR BB SO ERA
Timlin 47.0 41 6 15 36 2.87
Ayala 60.1 67 11 24 49 5.07
Spo 48.0 37 3 21 43 3.19
Norm 47.0 65 6 33 34 7.85
I think they can help. Will they offset Cruz, Don't know but maybe.
>
John Marshall
Seattle Mariners in 97!!
http://home.sprynet.com/sprynet/hawakane | Greatest Baseball League
http://www.angelfire.com/wa/apba/index.html | Personal Home Page
Derek Milhous Zumsteg
On 1 Aug 1997 02:48:32 GMT, ste...@ix.netcom.com(Kevin Wintersteen)
wrote:
>` Explain how getting burierd is a good thing. Your assuming everyone
>plays this well and is healthy next year.
Burierd wouldn't do us any good. Buried might get Woody and Piniella
fired, which is what Dylan wants (I have mixed feelings, having had
Dylan convince my my anti-Piniella tirades didn't make a whole lot of
sense).
>The 'pens "suckiness" is on their shoulders alone. If they didn't pitch
>like shit in the first place, Lou wouldn't mess with the. They cost us Cruz.(And SF trade)
This is stupid. We've pointed out Lou's pitcher mismanagement before.
It's not entirely their fault. Salient points:
1) Bobby pitches okay for an inning and then sucks. Lou now leaves him
out.
2) When one pitcher is 'hot', Lou pitches them until their arm falls
off, so they become not 'hot'.
3) Lou can't keep anyone in roles they are well-suited for and tends
to forget about pitchers for a couple weeks, then use them repeatedly.
Such uneven use is generally agreed to be bad.
4) Lou pulls Wolcott all the time for no good reason.
Derek Milhous Zumsteg
'Movies like "Contact" help explain why movies like
"Independence Day" leave me feeling empty and unsatisfied.'
-- Roger Ebert
Kevin Wintersteen
In <33e16b4e...@news.sprynet.com> haw...@sprynet.com (John
Marshall) writes:
>
>That may well be true, but we are going to have to deal with Ducey and
>Amaral playing LF for this season and seasons to come I guess. The
>lack of offense was evident today as we lost 2-1. Moyer pitched a
>great game and for some reason no offense support for the guy with the
>most support in the major leagues.
I would think Ibanez or another minor league would be broght up.
>Yes just barley, and since the Angels are going to be playing the much
>aligned White Sox for 4 games I see our lead possibly going away,
>although after six its tied in Anaheim at 11-11.
This problem should have been fixed before the season started.
>I don't think they wanted to trade Cruz but after the White Sox sent
>Hernandez, and Alvarez to SF, that may have been the onl;y deal left.
>(Cruz for Timlin and Spoljaric). I used to think we could get by with
>what we had but I had lost faith and felt a deal had to be done. I
>had hoped something could be done without Cruz but if you take a look
>at what we had left for trade bait, there isn't much.
That's just it. SF's bold move and our 'pens recent inept play was
the final blow. That's what pushed it over the top.
>Now is the time to rally around and hope these guys can throw some
>life into this liefless bull pen. I don't see Lou changing much so I
>would guees that Holzmer and Hurtado will go down to Tacoma, and maybe
>Rabbe, or Zinter will be promoted, or maybe Tinsley... One can only
>hope its not the latter.
What gets me is why Botallico is still a phillie. Just what did
they ask for. Did it have to be one for one with Cruz for Botallico???
God, they screwed both of us. That would've been the best move.
Kevin W.
Douglas A. Schultz
>So, while a deal may be taking place as I write this, I don't think
>it's the answer. And if Cruz gets traded, I give up......
<delurk>
Sorry to see ya go Dylan...;-) You're always welcome in a.s.b.t-r...
What an amazing/befuddling/<insert adjective>/ trade. Jeez, you guys should
have talked to Texas. I believe we would have traded the staff except for
Wetteland for CruzJr. Yer BP is bad, no doubt, but trade one of the
brightest new players in the game, for Danny Darwin and two relief
sorta somebodies? Just how desperate are you guys? Heck, Anaheim has Ken Hill
now, Seattle ought to be able to light him up several more times this year,
and Texas is just a fond memory at 10 back.
</delurk>
:-D
J. Takada
Chung-Hsiung Yang <chy...@eng.sun.com> wrote in article
<840oh7q...@Eng.Sun.COM>...
| Remeber that Griffey was quite miffed when the front office wouldn't
| re-sign Tino Martinez. In defense of his wining, the guy actually knows
| what he is talking about. He is a baseball guy after all. Can you
| imagine if Tino was still with the Mariners?
|
Hello.
Yeah, it would be nice to think about "what if," but at the time of the trade, *nobody*
thought Tino would turnout like he did. The year he had before the trade was a
*career* year--he hadn't reached the numbers he had in *any* previous year of ball.
Not saying people thought he wouldn't be a solid player, just never in their wildest
dreams as spectacular as he has been.
Later.
Joji
--
Joji Takada (jtakad...@mbox.kyoto-inet.or.jp)
Pls. remove NOSPAM to reply by email.
Michael Cox
In article <dschultz.42...@cramspamti.com>, dsch...@cramspamti.com
(Douglas A. Schultz) wrote:
> Yer BP is bad, no doubt, but trade one of the
> brightest new players in the game, for Danny Darwin and two relief
> sorta somebodies?
Last I checked, we're still about 1000 miles north of Danny Darwin, unless
Woody has just swung another "deal".
> Just how desperate are you guys?
Us on asbs-m? We'll help dunk Norm in the tar and supply the feathers.
The Mariner team? Apparently not quite that desperate. Yet.
---------------------------------------------------------------------
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Home Page: | smarter than Gil Amelio."
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dlo...@inlink.com
On 2 Aug 97 01:57:31 GMT, <> wrote:
>ste...@ix.netcom.com(Kevin Wintersteen) writes: > In <33e16b4e...@news.sprynet.com> haw...@sprynet.com (John
>There is a reason why the Phillies are in last place afterall. Frankly
>I expected to get a starter and Botallico. But I'm not a big fanatic
>about Botallico. I'm prejuidiced against NL pitchers no matter who
>they are.
>
>v/r Beau
Even Greg Maddux?
Glenn A Tanner
In article <01bc9e96$52fc9820$566586d2@toshiba-500>,
J. Takada <Add...@in.signature> wrote:
>Chung-Hsiung Yang <chy...@eng.sun.com> wrote in article
><840oh7q...@Eng.Sun.COM>...
>
>| Remeber that Griffey was quite miffed when the front office wouldn't
>| re-sign Tino Martinez. In defense of his wining, the guy actually knows
>| what he is talking about. He is a baseball guy after all. Can you
>| imagine if Tino was still with the Mariners?
>|
>
>Hello.
>
>Yeah, it would be nice to think about "what if," but at the time of the trade, *nobody*
>thought Tino would turnout like he did. The year he had before the trade was a
>*career* year--he hadn't reached the numbers he had in *any* previous year of ball.
Plus, even with Tino's performance this year, for the price, Sorrento at
1B and Davis at 3B is at least as good as Tino at 1B and Mike Blowers (*)
at 3B. Plus, Sterling Hitchcock, if they hadn't given up on him, might
have pitched well enough to keep them from making one of these idiotic
trades.
GT
(*) Or some other crusty, overpaid veteran to satisfy Lou.
John Marshall
ste...@ix.netcom.com(Kevin Wintersteen) wrote:
>
>
> What gets me is why Botallico is still a phillie. Just what did
>they ask for. Did it have to be one for one with Cruz for Botallico???
>God, they screwed both of us. That would've been the best move.
>
There was no way the M's were going to get Bottalico. Even if the
Phillies were willing to restructure and give more, Lou did not want
another NL pitcher. He wanted pitchers that were already comfortable
with AL style of play. He got what he wanted. Just like we knew he
would. (down deep we all knew this) we just didn't want to admit it
until it was finalized.
Brian Stromblad
In <33e2bf04...@news.sprynet.com> haw...@sprynet.com (John
Marshall) writes:
>
>ste...@ix.netcom.com(Kevin Wintersteen) wrote:
>
>>
>>
>> What gets me is why Botallico is still a phillie. Just what did
>>they ask for. Did it have to be one for one with Cruz for
Botallico???
>>God, they screwed both of us. That would've been the best move.
>>
>
>There was no way the M's were going to get Bottalico. Even if the
>Phillies were willing to restructure and give more, Lou did not want
>another NL pitcher. He wanted pitchers that were already comfortable
>with AL style of play. He got what he wanted. Just like we knew he
>would. (down deep we all knew this) we just didn't want to admit it
>until it was finalized.
>
Trying to say Lou was having Andy Benes and Scott Sanders
flashbacks? I can understand that. But then Fassero has pitched very
well. The M's should have gotten more with less or just say screw it
until next year. Relievers should be acquired in the free agent market
or developed by the farm system.
Later,
Brian
J. Takada
| >ste...@ix.netcom.com(Kevin Wintersteen) writes:
| >>
| >> What gets me is why Botallico is still a phillie. Just what did
| >> they ask for. Did it have to be one for one with Cruz for Botallico???
| >> God, they screwed both of us. That would've been the best move.
| >>
| >>
Hello.
I think part of the reason for the M's not getting Botallico is because Lou wanted to
stay away from an NL pitcher. The _Seattle Times_ mentioned something about that. I
don't know why for sure, maybe they wanted to avoid any "adjustment problems" of
another NL pitcher coming to the AL. Fassero had some problems early, and even more
problems going back the other way (the shellacking he got from the Giants in an
inter-league game at 3Com (Candlestick Park?). Not to mention the terrible time Scott
Sanders had.
Or, maybe Lou was just scared about getting another NL pitcher for his bullpen--Norm
and Bobby both originally coming for Cincinnati.
On another note: I don't know how if trading Cruz was such a bad idea. Not saying he
isn't a good player, a good prospect, but do you think he is "superstar" material in
the same level as Griffey Jr.. or Alex? What will or break this trade is if the M's
win, and win big. If so, then people will say "This was the best trade the M's ever
made," as always seems to be the case. But then, that's part of the fun!
John Northey
On 3 Aug 1997 01:23:36 GMT, "J. Takada" <Add...@in.signature> wrote:
>ste...@ix.netcom.com(Kevin Wintersteen) writes:
>> What gets me is why Botallico is still a phillie. Just what did
>> they ask for. Did it have to be one for one with Cruz for Botallico???
>
>don't know why for sure, maybe they wanted to avoid any "adjustment problems" of
>another NL pitcher coming to the AL.
Well, if Lou was thinking (I know, doubtful but..) then he'd recall
that the traditional way of thinking (although I don't know if its
backed up by the numbers offhand) is the first time a player hits a
league its the pitchers who have the advantage. Hitters would need to
adjust more the first time they see a pitcher than the other way
around. It makes some sense. This 'adjustment problems' thing just
seems weak to me.
>On another note: I don't know how if trading Cruz was such a bad idea. Not saying he
>isn't a good player, a good prospect, but do you think he is "superstar" material in
>the same level as Griffey Jr.. or Alex?
If he's in that category then the M's will _really_ look bad. I doubt
he's that good, but if he's a solid .800 ops player I'll be happy.
> What will or break this trade is if the M's
>win, and win big. If so, then people will say "This was the best trade the M's ever
>made," as always seems to be the case. But then, that's part of the fun!
Well, maybe. Remember, the Detroit Tigers made a trade that pushed
them over the top (for the division, but not the World Series) in
1987. Alexander for Smoltz. Alexander was fantastic down the
stretch and they'd have missed the playoffs if it wasn't for him.
However, we all know that Smoltz turned out fantastic while Alexander
was washed up right after the '87 season. I'm sure many Detroit fans
debate if it was worth it. It gave them their last playoff
appearance, but ...
John Northey.
Still very very happy about the Jays getting Cruz for 2 middle
relievers.
Benjamin Gregory Ramm
On Sun, 3 Aug 1997, John Northey wrote:
> On 3 Aug 1997 01:23:36 GMT, "J. Takada" <Add...@in.signature> wrote:
>
> >ste...@ix.netcom.com(Kevin Wintersteen) writes: >> What gets me is why
> Botallico is still a phillie. Just what did >> they ask for. Did it have
> to be one for one with Cruz for Botallico??? > >don't know why for
> sure, maybe they wanted to avoid any "adjustment problems" of >another
> NL pitcher coming to the AL.
>
> Well, if Lou was thinking (I know, doubtful but..) then he'd recall
> that the traditional way of thinking (although I don't know if its
> backed up by the numbers offhand) is the first time a player hits a
> league its the pitchers who have the advantage. Hitters would need to
> adjust more the first time they see a pitcher than the other way
> around. It makes some sense. This 'adjustment problems' thing just
> seems weak to me.
It does seem weak, but it isn't so much the hitters to which the pitcher
has to adjust, it is the strike zone.
The Mariners have gotten burned by this problem several times in the last
few years. Other people have already posted the argument, but here's a
recap with the data.
(1) Andy Benes. Sure, he was 7-2 for the M's, but he did it with a very
high ERA and, I think, quite a few walks. It was nice to have him for
momentum purposes, but I don't think that you'd want to risk that sort of
situation again.
(2) Scott Sanders. Shudder. He's already 0-2 for Detroit with a 5.40
ERA. What scares me is that his ERA is improving. By month, his walks to
strike-outs:
1997 1996
Month BB K BB K
April 13 18 5 14
May 16 14 5 15
June 7 19 7 20
July 4 22 7 40
August 13 40
Sept. 11 28
Total 40 73 48 157
So it's not like he's just better early in the year.
Harrison is going to *love* this. He's still giving up a lot of home
runs, but at least he's getting better control.
(3) Jeff Fassero. He's done well for the entire year, but look at the
same comparison:
1997 1996
Month BB K BB K
April 17 30 5 30
May 16 29 8 33
June 14 29 9 42
July 12 36 15 44
August 0 7 11 36
Sept. 7 37
Total 59 131 55 222
More walks this year for Fassero than ALL of last year.
It seems to take a guy about 2 months to get it really figured out.
Bottalico has been erratic. I published the crazy home-away splits here
earlier. His ERA has also been rising. Those two factors, when combined
with this sort of adjustment problem makes him a very sketchy bet. With
Timlin you may not love what you get, but at least you *know* what you
get.
Ben Ramm
Jeff Joseph
In article <5rstos$c...@news.dmv.com>, Brent Bozman <bren...@dmv.com>
wrote:
>Anybody else think that this deal will go down with the Doyle Alexander/
>John Smoltz trade as deadline deals that cost too much for the future? If
>anything, this could be worse. At least Alexander pitched well for the
>Tigers down the stretch in '87; Timlin and Spoljaric are mediocre
>relievers who couldn't even hold down the Jays' closer role. If they
>couldn't land a blue-chip reliever without giving up Cruz, at least they
>could've found a cheap middle reliever and keep Bob Wells as the closer.
Timlin and Spoljaric are "mediocre" because they have the Lou Pinella of
the East as their manager. Timlin could do very well in Seattle if given
the opportunity (ie. if Pinella gives him a lot of opportunity like he
did Norm Charlton when HE started getting into a rut.) Spoljaric has
actually become an effective lefty spot guy so he'll help immediately.
No, they obviously don't justify trading Jose Cruz Jr. However, I do
think both will do what they were acquired to do. In fact, they might be
key ingredients in getting the M's to the World Series this year.
Bad enough that Cruz was dealt for only this, but then Seattle turns
around and acquires Heathcliff Slocumb for what amounts to nothing for
them (because Jason Varitek is a big nothing, possibly because of what
Scott Boras did to thim and Derek Lowe is hardly Ken Cloude.) I hardly
see Slocumb as being much worse than Timlin and, in fact, could be
better if he didn't have pitching coaches completely mess his mechanics
(although I still hold Jimy Williams predecessor greatly responsible for
what has happened to Slocumb this year.)
The more I see of Lou in action, the more greatful I am that he never
got the Toronto job after Jimy Williams was canned.
So Seattle now has Hurtado, Timlin, and Spoljaric in the 'pen and had
Menhart in the organization for an extended stretch. This was all for
Bill Risley and Jose Cruz Jr.
Um, yeah, I can live with this...
----------*------------*-------------*------------*-------------*----
Jeff Joseph. Stonecutter #118.
E-mail:jjo...@interlog.com
"Bachelor Diet Tip: Eating doesn't make you fat. Marriage does."
- P.J. O'Rourke
----------*------------*-------------*------------*-------------*----
John Phillips
Kevin Wintersteen wrote:
> What gets me is why Botallico is still a phillie. Just what did
> they ask for. Did it have to be one for one with Cruz for Botallico???
>
> God, they screwed both of us. That would've been the best move.
>
> Kevin W.
>
> >John Marshall
> >Seattle Mariners in 97!!
> >http://home.sprynet.com/sprynet/hawakane | Greatest Baseball League
> >http://www.angelfire.com/wa/apba/index.html | Personal Home Page
I dont think Bottalico wouldve been the best move. First we wouldve
only got a one for one trade with Philly Cruz for Bottalico. Second
Bottalico has no experience in pennant races, Timlin does (World Series
experience) and I think the third reason will have to be the fact that
Bottalico is a NL pitcher. Would you want to take a gamble and bring a
NL pitcher over to the hard hitting AL ? Remember the kid from SD who
went to KC and got smoked? I think it was Mark Davis. The AL is far
superior to the NL in hitting. thats why I still feel that AL pitchers
are far better.
John Phillips
Doug Riblet
ez02...@dilbert.ucdavis.edu (Gary Huckabay) wrote:
>I was referring to the incident a couple of years back where Griffey
>publically suggested that Craig hadn't had an opportunity to show that
>he can play baseball. He also suggested that he'd like to see
>Craig get that opportunity in the big leagues.
He also broached the idea of asking for a clause in his contract which
would force the Mariners to give Craig a full season of playing time.
The general response on r.s.bb was: (1) what an arrogant twit, and
(2) that would be collusion.
---------------------------------------------------------
Doug Riblet / dbri...@students.wisc.edu
Derek Milhous Zumsteg
On Tue, 29 Jul 1997 14:31:09 -0700, Three Cedars
<BuK...@worldnet.att.net> wrote:
>David Andrew Leonardo Marasco wrote:
>> Can you imagine the shitrain that would occur if Barry or Albert said some
>> of these things?
>Does Barry or Albert cough up part of their paycheck so that the boys in
>the office can pay the salaries of new acquisitions?
Griffey doesn't do this, so what's your point?
--
Derek Milhous Zumsteg
"He will hit high, inside pitches to the opposite field, which would
be ridiculous even if he didn't do it with both feet off the ground."
-- Koufax, on trying to pitch to Roberto Clemente
Alex
cobra wrote:
>
> Ken Griffey says, "...there are players in this clubhouse who want to
> defer money to free up something now. Management won't do it."
>
> Doesn't Griffey know that Baseball's collective bargaining agreement
> with the Player's Union does not allow teams to restructure player
> contracts? Obviously not. Mr. Griffey needs to know what the hell he is
> talking about before he opens his big, fat yap.
>
> Griffey is slowly and surely revealing himself to be a big, whining,
> sniveling crybaby. He needs to pull up his Huggies, shut his damn mouth
> and go play.
One word: Irabu