training without the target
Luca Ferrari
I'd like to discuss here about training without the target, I mean shooting
at a few meters only without the target. The idea is that doing that the
shooter is not concentrated on aiming, but only on the execution of the
right action.
I had two coaches in the past with two different theories about that:
1) shooting without the target is very important to make the action becoming
automatic;
2) it is not important, because you will perceive the action different when
aiming and therefore it is important to be trained with the target.
I am prone to the second statement, having tried both and knowing that
shooting without the target is "simpler" than with it. Then I saw the 1000
arrow competition http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RezVD0fAIsY where it is
very visible that the guys are shooting without the target. So I'd like to
discuss about this, not only to know your opinion, but also to understand
if there is a specific way to do it. For instance, is it useful only if
done at short distance or even at, let say, 70 mt?
Luca
Miss Elaine Eos
Luca Ferrari <fluc...@infinito.it> wrote:
I suppose different people will be affected differently. On the other
hand, we're all people, and have similarities... :)
My experience has been that focusing on "form", while ignoring the
target (which is easier if there's no target there -- just a big wall of
straw bales or similar) has been exceptionally useful in getting my form
"just so."
From this, when I teach people to shoot, I would go with the "no target"
method (or giant target w/o bullseye @ 5yds), and talk a lot about
finger, arm, grip, stance, draw and other aspects of the form, all the
while offering encouraging (yet slightly dismissive, or focused "off the
target") words about how great they're doing, having hit the bale.
Another thing I've found useful for my own training: from short distance
(5-6yds), do your normal draw, take 1/2 second to aim, then close your
eyes and spend ~5 seconds reviewing every aspect of your form. With
your eyes closed, check your stance, check your elbow, check your
fingers, check your draw, check your grip, check your bow arm, check
everything. With your eyes closed. Then let 'er go!
For a while, my release was jerky -- I had trouble just relaxing my
hand. One way I fixed this was with eyes-closed training as above but,
after I'd done my "check everything", I focused my CLOSED EYES on the
"target in my mind", imagining the tip of the arrow and the target in
the distance (i.e., do NOT focus on release fingers!) and just "let it
happen." Then do not open your eyes until AFTER you've "checked" (eyes
closed) that your bow-arm is still up ("follow-through"), after hearing
the arrow hit the target.
All that worked for me so well that I enthusiastically recommend it for
others.
--
Please take off your pants or I won't read your e-mail.
I will not, no matter how "good" the deal, patronise any business which sends
unsolicited commercial e-mail or that advertises in discussion newsgroups.
Austin Shackles
<fluc...@infinito.it> enlightened us thusly:
>Hi all,
>I'd like to discuss here about training without the target, I mean shooting
>at a few meters only without the target. The idea is that doing that the
>shooter is not concentrated on aiming, but only on the execution of the
>right action.
It's a good training technique, with applications in various specific cases,
e.g.
- learning the mechanical aspect of coming onto the back, drawing through
the clicker and loosing in a reliable and consistent manner
- developing the muscles in the arms and back to shoot more consistently
- also helpful with some specific faults, like premature loose or "target
shyness"
I've used the technique (also known as "shooting a blank boss") on some
occasions, mostly to practice coming through the clicker smoothly and
loosing correctly without the "distraction" of aiming.
--
Austin Shackles. www.ddol-las.net my opinions are just that
Travel The Galaxy! Meet Fascinating Life Forms...
------------------------------------------------\
>> http://www.schlockmercenary.com/ << \ ...and Kill them.
a webcartoon by Howard Tayler; I like it, maybe you will too!
Austin Shackles
<Mi...@your-pants.PlayNaked.com> enlightened us thusly:
>
>My experience has been that focusing on "form", while ignoring the
>target (which is easier if there's no target there -- just a big wall of
>straw bales or similar) has been exceptionally useful in getting my form
>"just so."
There's a good bit of truth in that but I'll add a caveat for teaching,
which I also do a bit of.
There's a standard style (stance, arm positions, loose etc.) which tends to
get put in books or such as "how you should shoot", and it's a good idea to
have such a standard, but you don't have to try to follow it too rigidly. It
works well for those that it suits but you must always be conscious that
it's not going to work for everyone.
In fact, the more I look at it, there are as many styles as there are
archers, almost. Basically, I tend to try to teach the standard style
especially to beginners, as it's also easier to correct faults if you have a
standard to refer to. However, if an archer can shoot reliably with ANY
style, then you can't really fault it and say "that's wrong". It's not
wrong, it's just that they've learned different. The most you can do is to
suggest that they may try altering style in some way.
There are also cases, more common in adult beginners, where for some
physical reason they can't shoot in the standard style and then you have to
work out some compromise. I've learned a lot about this by talking to a
coach who's also a wheelchair archer, paralysed form the chest down.
Paul - xxx
> Hi all,
> I'd like to discuss here about training without the target, I mean
> shooting at a few meters only without the target. The idea is that
> doing that the shooter is not concentrated on aiming, but only on the
> execution of the right action.
I'm a 'new', still in my novice year, archer, but have achieved
reasonable scores recently. At the club I get taught various things
about what I'm doing wrong! invariably whilst aiming at a target and
trying to beat the top archer. (Hi Simon) Whilst this is fun and is
good practice it's possibly not helping much on form, unless there's
someone else watching what I do and commenting.
At home I have a foam boss and a small garden and can only practise at
a max of 12 yards, so have also tried 'blind' shooting as a training
method. In my limited experience it _does_ help teach you more
'purely' than when you're also concentrating on aiming at a gold spot.
I also try, sometimes, closing my eyes and focussing mentally on what
I'm trying to improve, I feel it's beneficial to the extent that you
can 'feel' your muscles working rather than seeing them work and
getting an offset viewpoint.
> So I'd like to discuss about this, not only to know your
> opinion, but also to understand if there is a specific way to do it.
> For instance, is it useful only if done at short distance or even at,
> let say, 70 mt?
Short answer, I dunno. ;) I only do it at short distances. At long
distances I guess you actually have to aim even to hit the boss. There
must be a distance, probably different for everyone, where muscle
memory and repetition of movement simply won't achieve hits regularly.
This next bit might sound a bit strange, but I also practise the
movements without even a bow or arrow! Being able to relax and do the
movements without having to think about anything, I think, helps a lot
and is very much akin to shooting 'blind'.
--
Paul - xxx
'96/'97 Landrover Discovery 300 Tdi 'Big and Butch'
Dyna Tech Cro-Mo comp "When I feel fit enough'
Luca Ferrari
> I'm a 'new', still in my novice year, archer, but have achieved
> reasonable scores recently. At the club I get taught various things
> about what I'm doing wrong! invariably whilst aiming at a target and
> trying to beat the top archer. (Hi Simon) Whilst this is fun and is
> good practice it's possibly not helping much on form, unless there's
> someone else watching what I do and commenting.
>
This is interesting, in fact I believe that it is important to have a coach
watching you while training without the target. I believe also, and this is
one of the point why I'm not very confident with this kind of training,
that shooting without aiming could not emphasize errors that the target
can. For instance, imagine you are moving your bow arm so that the arrow is
always impacting in a point, if you are not aiming you cannot see this,
since you have no check with the target!
> This next bit might sound a bit strange, but I also practise the
> movements without even a bow or arrow! Being able to relax and do the
> movements without having to think about anything, I think, helps a lot
> and is very much akin to shooting 'blind'.
This is not strange, I know Koreans do this regularly, but they also
simulate the score in order to get confident feeling how a ten should look
like. I personally find this kind of training strange, because it is very
difficult to simulate movements without the contact with the bow, with the
tab, and so on. I prefere to use a a very light bow or some elastic tape to
do exercises. Another exercise I do regularly is to make only a few draws
at home, with my bare bow (i.e., without the sight, the stabilizers and
even the arrow). The idea is to help muscle to keep memory and to get more
power doing these exercises.
Luca
Luca Ferrari
> My experience has been that focusing on "form", while ignoring the
> target (which is easier if there's no target there -- just a big wall of
> straw bales or similar) has been exceptionally useful in getting my form
> "just so."
I think the same, the problem I've experienced is that when aiming the form
become totally different. This could, or better it is surely a problem of
mind and target "panic" (even if it is not exactly a target panic). It is
for this reason that I don't believe very much in shooting without the
target or blind, but I believe in shooting watching a mirror, for instance.
It does not remove a visual contact (as blind eyes), forces you to aim and
allows you to see how's your form.
>
> From this, when I teach people to shoot, I would go with the "no target"
> method (or giant target w/o bullseye @ 5yds), and talk a lot about
> finger, arm, grip, stance, draw and other aspects of the form, all the
> while offering encouraging (yet slightly dismissive, or focused "off the
> target") words about how great they're doing, having hit the bale.
For teaching people to shoot that's right, I prefere huge targets instead of
no target because people need to see they can hit the yellow, this will get
them excited and happy to shoot.
>
> Another thing I've found useful for my own training: from short distance
> (5-6yds), do your normal draw, take 1/2 second to aim, then close your
> eyes and spend ~5 seconds reviewing every aspect of your form. With
> your eyes closed, check your stance, check your elbow, check your
> fingers, check your draw, check your grip, check your bow arm, check
> everything. With your eyes closed. Then let 'er go!
>
This is interesting, I will try this next time I do training. Thanks for
suggesting.
Luca
Miss Elaine Eos
Luca Ferrari <fluc...@infinito.it> wrote:
> > Another thing I've found useful for my own training: from short distance
> > (5-6yds), do your normal draw, take 1/2 second to aim, then close your
> > eyes and spend ~5 seconds reviewing every aspect of your form. With
> > your eyes closed, check your stance, check your elbow, check your
> > fingers, check your draw, check your grip, check your bow arm, check
> > everything. With your eyes closed. Then let 'er go!
> This is interesting, I will try this next time I do training. Thanks for
> suggesting.
I wouldn't do it from any big distance, but it's kind of fun to "use the
force, Luke..."
:)
Austin Shackles
<Mi...@your-pants.PlayNaked.com> enlightened us thusly:
>In article <xYfWj.41924$o06....@tornado.fastwebnet.it>,
> Luca Ferrari <fluc...@infinito.it> wrote:
>
>> > Another thing I've found useful for my own training: from short distance
>> > (5-6yds), do your normal draw, take 1/2 second to aim, then close your
>> > eyes and spend ~5 seconds reviewing every aspect of your form. With
>> > your eyes closed, check your stance, check your elbow, check your
>> > fingers, check your draw, check your grip, check your bow arm, check
>> > everything. With your eyes closed. Then let 'er go!
>
>> This is interesting, I will try this next time I do training. Thanks for
>> suggesting.
>
>I wouldn't do it from any big distance, but it's kind of fun to "use the
>force, Luke..."
Blind shooting is mainly about eliminating "steering the arrow", by which I
mean the tendency to try to influence the shot, usually subconsciously, by
moving the bow.
Another useful hint on the same lines is to extend your bow arm (without
arrow) aim at the target then shut your eyes for a few seconds, open them
again and see where your aim has drifted off to. If you're still lined up
with the target, then good. If not, try altering your foot positions
slightly (only takes a cm or so) so that you do stay lined up.
This one came from a disabled shooter who's paralysed from the chest down,
and is how he adjusts for left-right. If you drifted left, then move your
stance a touch to the right, or vice versa. The idea is that this means
your "natural" position is pointing at the gold, makes missing left or right
less likely.
Same chap also shoots air pistol to something close to Olympic standard, so
I'm inclined to think he may know what he's on about.
Paul - xxx
> Hi all,
> I'd like to discuss here about training without the target
Further to this ...
I've just been out shooting in the back garden, 12.5 metres. Shot
maybe four dozen then realised what I actually needed was some help or
someone telling me, or showing me where, how and what, I'm doing
'wrong'.
Anyway, remembered a 'broken' video camera we had, it wouldn't work
when tapes were put in, but had a good video signal etc. So, video
camera on a tripod, connected to Laptop via a Dazzle80 'thing' and
started filming myself.
What a revelation. Actually watching what I do with my hands and
fingers is a bit of an eye-opener and shows that my 'style' is somewhat
awry, but gives me good clues to how to change little bits.
Anyone else do this?
Austin Shackles
<notchec...@hotmial.com> enlightened us thusly:
>Luca Ferrari wrote:
>
>> Hi all,
>> I'd like to discuss here about training without the target
>
>Further to this ...
>
>I've just been out shooting in the back garden, 12.5 metres. Shot
>maybe four dozen then realised what I actually needed was some help or
>someone telling me, or showing me where, how and what, I'm doing
>'wrong'.
>
>Anyway, remembered a 'broken' video camera we had, it wouldn't work
>when tapes were put in, but had a good video signal etc. So, video
>camera on a tripod, connected to Laptop via a Dazzle80 'thing' and
>started filming myself.
>
>What a revelation. Actually watching what I do with my hands and
>fingers is a bit of an eye-opener and shows that my 'style' is somewhat
>awry, but gives me good clues to how to change little bits.
>
>Anyone else do this?
not directly, in real time, that's a cracking idea. Will have to try to set
it up, it'd be an even better coaching tool than recording it to look at
later.
Paul - xxx
> On or around 16 May 2008 17:06:28 GMT, "Paul - xxx"
> <notchec...@hotmial.com> enlightened us thusly:
>
> > Luca Ferrari wrote:
> >
> >> Hi all,
> >> I'd like to discuss here about training without the target
> >
> > Further to this ...
> >
> > I've just been out shooting in the back garden, 12.5 metres. Shot
> > maybe four dozen then realised what I actually needed was some help
> > or someone telling me, or showing me where, how and what, I'm doing
> > 'wrong'.
> >
> > Anyway, remembered a 'broken' video camera we had, it wouldn't work
> > when tapes were put in, but had a good video signal etc. So, video
> > camera on a tripod, connected to Laptop via a Dazzle80 'thing' and
> > started filming myself.
> >
> > What a revelation. Actually watching what I do with my hands and
> > fingers is a bit of an eye-opener and shows that my 'style' is
> > somewhat awry, but gives me good clues to how to change little bits.
> >
> > Anyone else do this?
>
> not directly, in real time, that's a cracking idea. Will have to try
> to set it up, it'd be an even better coaching tool than recording it
> to look at later.
It's quite good. I found I could do it by acident really. I knew the
camera was no good, but I hate to throw 'stuff' away, so it's sat in a
box in a cupboard for a few years. Then whilst in the garden I thought
of how I could 'see' what I'm doing and thought about the video capture
thing I had that I knew works on the laptop ... so dug the video cam
out et voila ... ;)
As a bonus it does also record direct to the laptop what I do, so I can
both see it in real time and I can watch it later, best of both.
... Now if I can dig the old multimedia projector out, everyone around
could also see me ... ;)
Luca Ferrari
> Another useful hint on the same lines is to extend your bow arm (without
> arrow) aim at the target then shut your eyes for a few seconds, open them
> again and see where your aim has drifted off to. If you're still lined up
> with the target, then good. If not, try altering your foot positions
> slightly (only takes a cm or so) so that you do stay lined up.
This is very interesting, I'll try it the next time.
Luca
Luca Ferrari
> Anyway, remembered a 'broken' video camera we had, it wouldn't work
> when tapes were put in, but had a good video signal etc. So, video
> camera on a tripod, connected to Laptop via a Dazzle80 'thing' and
> started filming myself.
>
> What a revelation. Actually watching what I do with my hands and
> fingers is a bit of an eye-opener and shows that my 'style' is somewhat
> awry, but gives me good clues to how to change little bits.
>
> Anyone else do this?
>
I make videos on each training, in the last ends to see how I'm doing my
form. But I don't watch it directly, I watch it after the training and keep
a blog of my trainings with the videos, to see what I've changed.
Luca
Lissette Rivera
target. This gives the archer a sense of knowing their form, rather than
trying to concentrate on two things at once. Getting your form just right
and comfortable is just as important as aiming in the right spot.
"Miss Elaine Eos" <Mi...@your-pants.PlayNaked.com> wrote in message
news:Misc-001CDF.0...@news.sf.sbcglobal.net...
Austin Shackles
<babia...@verizon.net> enlightened us thusly:
>I have been told by a lot of people that it is best to start off without the
>target. This gives the archer a sense of knowing their form, rather than
>trying to concentrate on two things at once. Getting your form just right
>and comfortable is just as important as aiming in the right spot.
>
tricky one this. There's a lot of merit in shooting at a plain boss to
improve your technique. However, I'd not recommend it to begin with.
Actually, found a great solution to "gotta hit that spot" syndrome - it's
already in here in fact, title "new game":
put 5 arrows in your quiver
stand online facing a normal 5-colour-zone target
shoot 1 arrow into each colour.
Paul - xxx
> On or around Thu, 20 Nov 2008 01:00:35 GMT, "Lissette Rivera"
> <babia...@verizon.net> enlightened us thusly:
>
> > I have been told by a lot of people that it is best to start off
> > without the target. This gives the archer a sense of knowing their
> > form, rather than trying to concentrate on two things at once.
> > Getting your form just right and comfortable is just as important
> > as aiming in the right spot.
> >
>
> tricky one this. There's a lot of merit in shooting at a plain boss
> to improve your technique. However, I'd not recommend it to begin
> with.
>
> Actually, found a great solution to "gotta hit that spot" syndrome -
> it's already in here in fact, title "new game":
>
> put 5 arrows in your quiver
> stand online facing a normal 5-colour-zone target
> shoot 1 arrow into each colour.
Just tried that ... at 12 yards ... it's a bitch. ;)
Six ends, only one end with all five different.