Hard pull on BOC: direction of pull seems important
Giraud
(made in 1992 or so) converted from leg-strap to BOC deployment. I had
been putting it off for some time, especially since once you have years
of experience on one type, it takes some adjusting to get the habbit
straight for the new system, and that's one more thing to think about
when you simply want to enjoy the jumps. But it was time for me to get
into the 21st century!
So last week I made a jump on the new BOC configuration. To my
surprize, I had a hard time extracting the pilot chute! It took a bit
longer and a lot more force than usual, and for a second or two I
wondered if I'd be trying out my reserve! The spandex pouch, of course,
is new, so it's tight, but there is more at work here, I think.
This weekend I did some experimenting with my rig on the ground, and I
discovered something. The pull direction made a huge difference in pull
force. I suspect that (on my jump) I pulled parallel to the bottom of
the container (directly out to the side) or maybe even slightly forward
(towards my head), since the natural old leg strap pouch's direction of
pull would be up the leg or slightly forward and out - I had never
really thought about this before, but I'm sure one adapts to the most
natural direction of pull.
On the ground with the BOC, pulling "along" the container (directly out
to the right) or slightly up towards my head, in a standing position,
caused lots of force to be necessary. If I instead pulled out and
slightly down towards my feet, it stretched the spandex opening and came
out *much* more easily. I'm sure the reduced friction against the
spandex (vs. against the container itself) helped too. I wonder if
people with the new system pull more this way (at an angle out but
towards the feet, directly away from the container) than straight out to
the right. In any case, I'll have to try it in the air to verify it,
but I thought I'd mention this and see if anyone else ever noticed this
effect - it might be something you notice more on transitioning to the
new system.
Giraud
Cloud buster
with your throw-out handle.
Before you stow your pilot shute, pound on the bottom of the container and form
a small recess where the pouch is.
<just a tip, if you hadn't thought of it>
good luck
ynotssor
news:10b4mpo...@corp.supernews.com
> OK, so I'm officially an old-timer I guess: I just recently had my rig
> (made in 1992 or so) converted from leg-strap to BOC deployment. I
> had been putting it off for some time, especially since once you have
> years of experience on one type, it takes some adjusting to get the
> habbit straight for the new system, and that's one more thing to
> think about when you simply want to enjoy the jumps. But it was time
> for me to get into the 21st century!
Actually, welcome to the 20th. =B^)
> So last week I made a jump on the new BOC configuration. To my
> surprize, I had a hard time extracting the pilot chute!
[...]
> This weekend I did some experimenting with my rig on the ground, and I
> discovered something. The pull direction made a huge difference in
> pull force. I suspect that (on my jump) I pulled parallel to the
> bottom of the container (directly out to the side) or maybe even
> slightly forward (towards my head), since the natural old leg strap
> pouch's direction of pull would be up the leg or slightly forward and
> out - I had never really thought about this before, but I'm sure one
> adapts to the most natural direction of pull.
[...]
> I wonder if people with the new system pull more this
> way (at an angle out but towards the feet, directly away from the
> container) than straight out to the right. In any case, I'll have to
> try it in the air to verify it, but I thought I'd mention this and
> see if anyone else ever noticed this effect - it might be something
> you notice more on transitioning to the new system.
Yes indeed, "muscle memory" (actually "training") has a great deal to do
with what you experienced. The direction of pull that you had trained
yourself to for so many years is something that needs to be re-learned with
any change of equipment.
In the early '80s, I had about 500 jumps on a "belly band" before
transitioning to ROL, and met with the exact same situation as you describe,
and met with consistently "hard-pulls". I had to think about re-training
that particular arm function to deal with a different direction of pull. On
the ground is one thing, but in the air is yet another, as there may be any
number of as-yet-unconsidered things to think about at pull time.
The same thing then happened when I transitioned to BOC, just as you
described. When I get a pull-out then I'll have to also re-condition myself
for that, but that's the benefit of being mentally young; one can still
learn.
tony
--
use hotmail for email replies
Giraud
> The same thing then happened when I transitioned to BOC, just as you
> described. When I get a pull-out then I'll have to also re-condition myself
> for that, but that's the benefit of being mentally young; one can still
> learn.
Good to know others (well, at least one!) had a similar experience.
Pull-out? I remember many of the experienced jumpers having "pull-outs"
when I started jumping in 1989. It was considered by many to be
problematic, as losing the pud could easily cause a total. Proponents
used to say that they liked the idea of actually "pulling the pin"
themselves though rather than letting the pilot chute's force pull it.
I didn't think they were ever used anymore though, at least installed
these days on gear. Are you talking about the same? If so, why do you
plan to go to it? Just curious.
-Giraud
Darren G
Could also be due to the make of your rig and how you pack your pilot
chute. I've seen lots of theories for this and heard plenty of
contradictory arguments. Ive got a Vector and a Talon. Never had a
problem with any of my Vectors but noticed a difference with my Talon
FS. I think Talon published something about this issue last year but
Ive been a temporary whuffo due to injury and Im a little out of the
loop.
Blues
Darren G
ynotssor
> Pull-out? I remember many of the experienced jumpers having
> "pull-outs" when I started jumping in 1989. It was considered by
> many to be problematic, as losing the pud could easily cause a total.
> Proponents used to say that they liked the idea of actually "pulling
> the pin" themselves though rather than letting the pilot chute's force
> pull it.
>
> I didn't think they were ever used anymore though, at least installed
> these days on gear. Are you talking about the same? If so, why do
> you plan to go to it? Just curious.
Well, you're either refreshingly honest or a superbly sublime troll, but
either way http://www.makeithappen.com/spsj/deployin.htm describes each of
the several types of self-initiated deployments, and some degree of
comparison of them. Each of course has its proponents and conponents (look
at me make up a word!)
Many people will probably weigh in with their opinions, and as long as they
stay on-topic, they're all worth listening to, because when they talk about
what they *know* they will be adding their own personal experiences that we
can all learn from.
Of course the topic has been hashed and re-hashed in this newsgroup until
even the addition of fresh chilies soaked in dark beer overnight, chopped
fried eggs and a splash of balsamic vinegar may not adequately revive it,
but it's sure worth a try.
Mr. tricky man
>(made in 1992 or so) converted from >leg-strap to BOC deployment
Unless you're a funnel flyer, shudda stuck with ROL Giraud...don't listen to
all the fear
mongers, mine never came adrift and most were either zoo's that required
glancing collisions or otherwise radical tumbles. Took care with the folding,
stuffing and combed my velcro religiously though. Besides whattcha gonna do if
you break your right arm or wrist on a exit.......So now you gotta have a
cypress right? Its all a gear conspiracy 0;-)
SkydiverRick
> Besides whattcha gonna do if you break your right arm or wrist on a
> exit.......So now you gotta have a cypress right? Its all a gear
> conspiracy 0;-)
My reserve is pulled with the left hand. No need to wait for the cypres.
Jerry K.
Probably a combination of all. Good thing to practice on the ground
what you'll be doing in the air - smart move. As to the effect - I've
had hard pulls but never so hard that I had to go for the reserve and
as for deployment systems, I've jumped ROL, BOC, Pullout, Handle, and
Ripcord. All have their pros and cons but I've never noticed one
system being particularely harder than the other on deployment the
first time out or whenever. Thinking about it, I generally deploy my
BOC by pulling it out and downwards at about a 4 o'clock angle if you
were looking at the rig from behind, as opposed to a straight out
towards 3 o'clock, but I don't have spandex but a pouch with a bungee
at the opening. I have another rig with spandex and, thinking about
it again, it is likely I throw that one out more towards 3 o'clock.
You can pack your pc a little smaller or slicker and see what that
does (just use common on that).
Curious - what was the deciding factor of factors which lead you to
transistion over? - I know several people who jump ROL's to this day
with no problems to speak of. Perfectly good system in most
circumstances.
Jerry K.
What a load of crap. Gee, "whattcha gonna do if
you break your right arm or wrist on a exit?" Is this fear-mongering?
I think it is. Doofus. Hell, don't know about you but I kinda
remember being taught (nevermind putting it into practice) going for
the silver handle with the left. Just more of your standard line of
nonsense - someone starts talking about some bit of gear and, all of a
sudden, it's a gear conspiracy - I don't seem to remember anyone
saying ROL sucks...yet. You protest too much - just gotta spout some
inanity which somehow reaffirms the short time you were in the sport.
You sure are insecure. So, he "shudda stuck with ROL..." All you've
been able to put up to support this idea is, yours never came free.
Whoopty shit. Not much of an argument coming from a person with as
little jumps as you.
<watch this - with this latest iterration of dingleberry being slammed
for the standard rhetorical bullshit, see how he will take said slams
and construe it as an attack on ROL's and assign fear as the prime
motive.>
That's right, Jimmie. You is *my* bitch now! Now, DANCE MONKEY!!!
...bsrp
...jlk
Mr. tricky man
>
>
I THINK IT IS THIS
Yawl are just like women when it comes to Fashion...Suppose it could be peer
pressure though...I've heard prissys say
"Not jumping with somebody who doesnt have a Cypres!" right here on wreck.
Expect to hear because he has no Full Face Helment, BOC or booties next
next. Sometimes when the sheep talk
like that I feel like just reaching thru the screen and grab a geeky little
neck.
You cud pull a ROL with your left hand
in an emergency and save a reserve repack to you know. Guess I'm just
kinda old fashioned and fugal money wise in my thinking. Adding all this shit
after market costs money. Money is beer and jump tickets
Mr. tricky man
>OK, so I'm officially an old-timer I guess: I >just recently had my rig (made
in 1992 or >so) converted from leg-strap to BOC >deployment.
Medal munch wrote:
> I generally deploy my
>BOC by pulling it out and downwards at >about a 4 o'clock angle
You started in 95 or 96 Jerry so yer not a old timer official or otherwise. No
need to explain you have a BOC yer a bootie boy, we already know your a fashion
fruit...Someone has already pointed out to giraud that perhaps he needs to
retrain his motor memory on pull dynamics
Giraud
> Probably a combination of all. Good thing to practice on the ground
> what you'll be doing in the air - smart move. As to the effect - I've
> had hard pulls but never so hard that I had to go for the reserve and
> as for deployment systems, I've jumped ROL, BOC, Pullout, Handle, and
> Ripcord. All have their pros and cons but I've never noticed one
> system being particularely harder than the other on deployment the
> first time out or whenever. Thinking about it, I generally deploy my
> BOC by pulling it out and downwards at about a 4 o'clock angle if you
> were looking at the rig from behind, as opposed to a straight out
> towards 3 o'clock, but I don't have spandex but a pouch with a bungee
> at the opening.
4 O'clock sounds like about where it became easier. Not sure exactly,
but when the PC was sliding along the rig bottom, it seemed to have lots
of friction with the rig itself. Pulling slightly down seemed to
stretch the spandex enough to let is slide more easily.
> Curious - what was the deciding factor of factors which lead you to
> transistion over? - I know several people who jump ROL's to this day
> with no problems to speak of. Perfectly good system in most
> circumstances.
Well, I've been thinking about it for a while - maybe there was no
really compelling reason, but one was that my bridal velcro was getting
a little old, so I'd have had to have that replaced anyway. Also, the
ROL pouch was pretty sad after probably 800 jumps on the rig (I had
already patched a hole in it once myself). In fact, the worn pouch
probably made it *easier* than typical to extract, and I was used to
that. There's also the comments that doing head-down is unwise with an
ROL (I've not done much, but I don't want to close the possibility of
doing it). Also, I figure making small moved toward updated
configurations over time will prevent adjusting to too many new things
on a new rig. Etc. etc.
Giraud
Giraud
> Well, you're either refreshingly honest or a superbly sublime troll, but
> either way http://www.makeithappen.com/spsj/deployin.htm describes each of
> the several types of self-initiated deployments, and some degree of
> comparison of them. Each of course has its proponents and conponents (look
> at me make up a word!)
> Of course the topic has been hashed and re-hashed in this newsgroup until
> even the addition of fresh chilies soaked in dark beer overnight, chopped
> fried eggs and a splash of balsamic vinegar may not adequately revive it,
> but it's sure worth a try.
I used to follow this newsgroup, but I only come here every now and then
now. I can imagine "which deployment is better" is an often-discussed
topic! No need to open those debates again. :)
I've just not seen any pull-outs lately. Of course I used to jump in
Massachusetts/Maine, but not I am in Colorado, and the jumping world is
not quite so large or diverse here!
Giraud
Giraud
> I've just not seen any pull-outs lately. Of course I used to jump in
> Massachusetts/Maine, but not I am in Colorado, and the jumping world is
^^^ meant to say "now"
Capt. hook
>>jump in Massachusetts/Maine, but not I >>am in Colorado,
Don't go out short
Giraud
Huh??
Giraud
If you mean in Maine... Yeah, the DZ's treeless area was pretty small.
Miss the spot, and you could end up in the trees or at one of a couple
of rare outs.
Giraud
Jerry K.
>Giraud wrote
>
>>OK, so I'm officially an old-timer I guess: I >just recently had my rig (made
>in 1992 or >so) converted from leg-strap to BOC >deployment.
>
>Medal munch wrote:
>
>> I generally deploy my
>>BOC by pulling it out and downwards at >about a 4 o'clock angle
That's Medal*S* munch to you - since I have between 5 and 10 times the
number of awarded bits of hardware than you and more competition and
team jumps than you ever made, ever.
>
>You started in 95 or 96 Jerry so yer not a old timer official or otherwise.
Never said I was - what does that matter? Just the same, if longevity
is the benchmark, yeah yeah - been in the sport longer than you, more
jumps than you - which still ain't saying much.
>No
>need to explain you have a BOC yer a bootie boy,
Better'n that - I got experience with that system and others, not to
mention understanding that if I "break (my) right arm or wrist on a
exit, it doesn't really change my left hand's ability to go for the
reserve. Booties? It's that time of the month again, folks - Jimmie
will soon be channeling the summation of all those experiences where
he screwed up and had to endure the combination of helpfull advice and
derisive laughter from the more experienced rw jumpers of the time.
>we already know your a fashion
>fruit...
Really? I once saw this amusing picture of you, replete with pink dye
in the beard (could been drooled cherry-cobbler perhaps), violet
slacks, and samurai sword - nevermind the cowboy hat and sunglasses
ensemble. Then there's the one of you trying (and failing) to look
butch from behind a pert, little goatee. Then there's the jumpsuit
sewn with personalized and requested colors - no off-the-shelf for you
- you had to have it personally sewn. Sit down Jimmie - the fashion
angle is just another dead-end.
>Someone has already pointed out to giraud that perhaps he needs to
>retrain his motor memory on pull dynamics
He was looking for input so he got it. Not from you, though.
"Shoulda stuck with ROL! It's a gear conspiracy!" Give it a rest you
stupid poser.
...bsrp
...jlk
Jerry K.
>Jerry K. wrote:
>> Probably a combination of all. Good thing to practice on the ground
>> what you'll be doing in the air - smart move. As to the effect - I've
>> had hard pulls but never so hard that I had to go for the reserve and
>> as for deployment systems, I've jumped ROL, BOC, Pullout, Handle, and
>> Ripcord. All have their pros and cons but I've never noticed one
>> system being particularely harder than the other on deployment the
>> first time out or whenever. Thinking about it, I generally deploy my
>> BOC by pulling it out and downwards at about a 4 o'clock angle if you
>> were looking at the rig from behind, as opposed to a straight out
>> towards 3 o'clock, but I don't have spandex but a pouch with a bungee
>> at the opening.
>
>4 O'clock sounds like about where it became easier. Not sure exactly,
>but when the PC was sliding along the rig bottom, it seemed to have lots
>of friction with the rig itself. Pulling slightly down seemed to
>stretch the spandex enough to let is slide more easily.
Yeah, makes sense - I never thought of it up until now - a lot of my
deployments occur with the idea that there is a wing coming off my arm
which generates a fair amount of burble so I kinda learned how to
deploy with the wings collapsed - which would kinda lean to doing it
at a more towards a 4 o'clock than a 3 o'clock angle.
For what it's worth - the way I pack my pc might help - you might be
getting a little binding-expansion going on. There are tons of
methods to pack the pc but I've found this one to be very consistant
in expanding enough to firmly fill the boc pocket's volume without
bunching anywhere and leading towards a harder pull.
Here's what I do:
Pc laid out flat in its circle, hacky down, mesh up.
Loop the bridle's slack pretty much on the straight line from the
center of the pc to just short of the edge of the mesh, leading
towards the BOC at the bottom of the container.
Fold in half (towards the container) leaving you with a half circle
with hacky on the outside center of the half circle and bridle coming
out from the center of the half circle's arc.
Fold one side of the half circle about 3/5ths (more or less) straight
across perpendicular and slightly past the line between the hacky and
the bridle.
Fold the opposite side across to where what you have left is a
rectangle, more or less, with the hacky at the top of one side of the
rectangle and the bit of bridle leading to the pin coming out the
other side.
Roll one side of the rectangle, kind of like a scroll to around the
center of the rectangle, almost to the center line between the bridle
and the hacky..
Roll the opposite side towards the center, meeting the opposite roll.
What you should have is two rolls meeting in two columns at the
center, essentially a cylinder or scroll with hacky on one end. and
bridle on the other.
Stow it away and do the requisite bridle tucks.
>
>> Curious - what was the deciding factor of factors which lead you to
>> transistion over? - I know several people who jump ROL's to this day
>> with no problems to speak of. Perfectly good system in most
>> circumstances.
>
>Well, I've been thinking about it for a while - maybe there was no
>really compelling reason, but one was that my bridal velcro was getting
>a little old, so I'd have had to have that replaced anyway. Also, the
>ROL pouch was pretty sad after probably 800 jumps on the rig (I had
>already patched a hole in it once myself). In fact, the worn pouch
>probably made it *easier* than typical to extract, and I was used to
>that. There's also the comments that doing head-down is unwise with an
>ROL (I've not done much, but I don't want to close the possibility of
>doing it). Also, I figure making small moved toward updated
>configurations over time will prevent adjusting to too many new things
>on a new rig. Etc. etc.
Yeah - seems reasonable - when I started there were still a number of
people jumping ROL and as word of the BOC's pros vs. the ROL's cons
made the rounds, they were pretty much the same reasons most people
transitioned over.
...bsrp
...jlk
SkydiverRick
You can set your rig up like our student rigs, pull from either side, if
you're worried about the one in a zillion chance of that happening.
Capt. hook
>in an emergency and save a reserve >repack to you know
>You can set your rig up like our student >rigs, pull from either side, if
>you're worried about the one in a zillion >chance of that happening.
>
gonna have a hacky on both ends or do you need to guess which direction to
place it each time? Just put the mfer on your leg and don't sweat it
bigjim
> Unless you're a funnel flyer, shudda stuck with ROL Giraud...don't listen
to
> all the fear
> mongers, mine never came adrift and most were either zoo's that required
> glancing collisions or otherwise radical tumbles. Took care with the
folding,
> stuffing and combed my velcro religiously though. Besides whattcha gonna
do if
> you break your right arm or wrist on a exit.......So now you gotta have a
> cypress right? Its all a gear conspiracy 0;-)
Snuffy, when you are pretending to know what your talking about and reply to
a legitimate question about skydiving, you should add a disclaimer that says
something like:
"Disregard anything that I say here because I am a clueless dumbfuck poser
and taking my advice seriously could easily get you killed. "
Some people come around here that may not be wise to your act.
Capt. hook
>Discharged: 770624
>Entered: 521200
>Discharged: 720407
>Entered: 4703
>Entered: 530700
>Discharged: 720719
What kinda dates is them?
>Name: SMITH JAMES E
>MOS: SF
what kida MOS is that?
>Name: SMITH JAMES E
>Branch: NAVY
>Rate: E07
>Rank: CHIEFT PETTY OFFICER
>Race: AFRICAN-AMERICAN
oop's try again
>ARKANSAS
>VIRGINIA
> GEORGIA
>WEST VIRGINIA
> COLORADO
> LOUISIANA
> CALIFORNIA
>WASHINGTON
>TEXAS
keep trying only 42 States and thousands of James Smiths not to mention 30 or
40 rates to go Chuck....Check out the Admirals named Smith too Bwaaahahaha
Capt. hook
>do if you break your right arm or wrist on >a exit.......So now you gotta have
a
>cypress right? Its all a gear conspiracy 0;-)
>Snuffy, when you are pretending to know what your talking about and reply to
>a legitimate question about skydiving, you should add a disclaimer that says
>something like:
>
>"Disregard anything that I say here because I am a clueless dumbfuck poser
>and taking my advice seriously could easily get you killed. "
>
>Some people come around here that may not be wise to your act.
>
>
Why? Its apparent the BEP and cross over training isn't as thourough as it used
to be.
Giraurd jumped the damn thing without pratice pulling on the ground
first....When I switched from ripcord to ROL the Rigger made me spend half a
saturday throwing out in the hanger before jumping the new rig. As far as BEP I
can see a USPA2000
newbie hassling with it trying to pull it out to long in the air before pulling
the cutaway and D ring..A incident a few years ago out in Ariz. Military jumper
switched to a civilian rig and went in, base Jan switched to a older less used
rig cause she knew her regular one would be confiscated and went in at Yosmite.
I suggest they have a plan or at least try to get it out with their left hand
once or twice so their will be no doubt as what to do...its called provoking
dummys into thinking Biggyjim. It they think I'm a asshole well thats alright
also
Most thinkers are considered assholes.
Lookit what the Greek city state's did to their philosophers
SkydiverRick
I'd say that a premature opening is more likely to happen than a broken arm
on exit, I'll stay with may BOC.
SkydiverRick
> Lookit what the Greek city state's did to their philosophers
The same thing that the little sailor does to you?
Capt. hook
>> direction to place it each time? Just >put the mfer on your leg and
>
>I'd say that a premature opening is more likely to happen than a broken arm
>on exit, I'll stay with may BOC.
>
>
including breakage, not just loose closing loops and pins adrift from improper
insetion and lack of preboarding check than horseshoes caused by ROL's coming
out of the pocket or bridal adrift in my short 6 or 7 years. I think its a
training and leadership problem.
In my days the old D's set the example, discouraging stupid tricks while
encouraging pratice of thinking out your outs-praticing basic emergency
proceedure constantly on the ground, hands on gear and pin checks...The habit
was to eyeball each others gear till exit, a lotta shit thats gets adrift in
the crush between loading and jumprun is caught that way. From the Ng I git the
idea yawl don't care much about each other or the novices anymore...Vanity
won't allow it
Its better to look cool than care or what?
David Ferree
>>Subject: Re: Hard pull on BOC: direction of pull seems important
>>From: to...@aol.com (Capt. hook)
>>Date: 5/25/04 9:18 PM Eastern Daylight Time
>>Message-id: <20040525211800...@mb-m02.aol.com>
>Smuff Wrote:
>>of preboarding check than horseshoes caused by ROL's coming
>>out of the pocket or bridal adrift in my short 6 or 7 years. I think its a
>>training and leadership problem.
>
>IT seems like a Snuff problem. 6-7 years, give us a break. Want someone to call
>the USPA again and ask one more time?
No, Chucky! Hire an investigator! LOL!!!
Capt. hook
>Smuff Wrote:
>>of preboarding check than horseshoes caused by ROL's coming
>>out of the pocket or bridal adrift in my short 6 or 7 years. I think its a
>>training and leadership problem.
>
>IT seems like a Snuff problem. 6-7 years, give us a break. Want someone to
>call
>the USPA again and ask one more time?
>
>>I saw more prematures from Unprotected D handles, closing
>
>I give up, what's a "d" handle?
>
>
d ring (reserve handle) dummy and since your rabid on sematics let me clean
this up;
>than horseshoes caused by ROL's >coming out of the pocket or bridal adrift in
>my short
ROL pc coming out usually causes a bag in tow due to twist unless you reach
back immediatly grab a hand full of bridal and pull the pin, bridal pulling pin
with PC still in pocket usually created the most common horse shoe, the others
being
pc still in pocket with bag out and bridal wrap---do you know anyfukking thing
besides playing G.I. Joe chuck?
"Fit Via Vi"
Capt. hook
>call the USPA again and ask one more >time?
>
>No, Chucky! Hire an investigator! LOL!!!
>
>
>
"Fit Via Vi"
SkydiverRick
>> Subject: Re: Hard pull on BOC: direction of pull seems important
>> From: to...@aol.com (Capt. hook)
>> Message-id: <20040525215308...@mb-m02.aol.com>
>>
>
>> No, Chucky! Hire an investigator! LOL!!!
>
>> BWAAAAAAAAHAHAHAHAHA shit, your killing me David
>>
>>
>> "Fit Via Vi"
>
Come to think of it, has anyone ever seen David and the Little Sailor
together?
David Ferree
>>Subject: Re: Hard pull on BOC: direction of pull seems important
>>From: to...@aol.com (Capt. hook)
>>Date: 5/25/04 9:53 PM Eastern Daylight Time
>>Message-id: <20040525215308...@mb-m02.aol.com>
>>
>
>>No, Chucky! Hire an investigator! LOL!!!
>
>>BWAAAAAAAAHAHAHAHAHA shit, your killing me David
>>
>>
>> "Fit Via Vi"
>
>Is the little sailor in you too deep Snuff?
You're calling yourself a little sailor now? Where did that come
from?
Capt. hook
>I know this: The leg mounted throw out >pilotchute could be traped by improper
>doning of the parachute equipment
and so can your cutaway pad & reserve handle so the problem is improper doning
& gear check not the ROL.
>if you threw the
>pilotchute to the front instead of to the >rear, it was prone to wrap the
>bridal around the arm
just proves you were poorly trained, you pull it out and drop it to the side,
only bridal wraps I ever experianced were self caused first one a subterminal
pull right out the door on a crew exit....bridals can do funky shit at sub
terminal...I watched it sway around like a cobra then it wrapped my helment at
brow level, the closing pin took a hunk outta my nose...then once again on a
Mr. Bill-right out the door...the bridal & pc went between our legs then
wrapped Mr. Bills arm. He shook it off and dropped leaving me under canopy at
13,000 ft.
>The introduction of the BOC
>has almost eliminated these problems.
Improper pull training and bridal problems at subterminal speeds has always
been a problem, always will be imho.
> But I forgot, you never jumped a BOC >did you.
Nope refused it on a demo rig once, I liked the feel of a ROL and having bridal
adventures seeing it was all about adrenaline, mussta been a gun slinger in
another life cause I liked the feel of it when my hand fell to my leg not to
mention at my age and weight it was a stretch just to reach around and whipe
your own ass 0;)P
"Fit Via Vi"
Jerry K.
>>gonna have a hacky on both ends or do >you need to guess which
>>> direction to place it each time? Just >put the mfer on your leg and
>> don't sweat it, cause thats where your hand naturaly hangs.
>>
>>I'd say that a premature opening is more likely to happen than a broken arm
>>on exit, I'll stay with may BOC.
>>
>>
>I saw more prematures from Unprotected D handles, closing loop problems
>including breakage, not just loose closing loops and pins adrift from improper
>insetion and lack of preboarding check than horseshoes caused by ROL's coming
>out of the pocket or bridal adrift in my short 6 or 7 years.
Not sure how any pc, once out of it's pocket, results in a horseshoe.
>I think its a
>training and leadership problem.
Of course you do. By suggesting such a problem exists, you can
suggest that the problem didn't exist in your time, thus suggesting
that your time was somehow more superior than a later time when you
had to be sidelined. The idea of such a problem now makes you feel
more relevant. You're co-dependent....and insecure.
>In my days the old D's set the example, discouraging stupid tricks while
>encouraging pratice of thinking out your outs-praticing basic emergency
>proceedure constantly on the ground, hands on gear and pin checks...
What a coincidence - it's still the same today though you wouldn't
know it because you're not there. Now and in here, when the "old D's"
set the examples, you're the first to chalk it up to vanity, fear, and
pursuit of the bottom line.
>The habit
>was to eyeball each others gear till exit, a lotta shit thats gets adrift in
>the crush between loading and jumprun is caught that way.
And it is still the habit today though recognizing this fact is
strongly counter to your absolute pursuit of self-affirmation.
>From the Ng I git the
>idea yawl don't care much about each other or the novices anymore...
Yeah, well, I think you should just kick back and enjoy the seastories
here on the newsgroup. If you got a problem with people not caring
much about each other and the novices, maybe you should get out to a
drozpone and effect some sort of solution, nip that problem in the
bud, instead of merely using the supposition as some sort of
springboard for your own personal reaffirmation.
>Vanity
>won't allow it
>Its better to look cool than care or what?
So you would like to imagine but the idea of vanity and people
striving to look cool above all other considerations is just another
of your pleas for help. Your time in the sport was apparently not an
enjoyable one so in suggesting vanity and people striving to look cool
as a situation which is endemic to the sport now, you shore up the
fiction that such behavior was not endemic then and since you were a
part of it then, you suggest that you were part of a better situation,
that you made better choices, that people who skydive now make worse
choices. It all makes you feel better about yourself. Fine, whatever
gets you through the night, I guess. But, just the same, dumb ideas
like that made in a public forum with no basis tend to be ridiculed,
opinion or not. Just kick back and enjoy the seastories if what you
read on here has you thinking that things in the real world are so
bad.
...bsrp
...jlk
Capt. hook
where the pc goes a bridal follows if it snags onto anything and yer bag comes
out thats a full blown horseshoe kid...try
to expand your narrow mind.
SkydiverRick
There's less chance of that on a BOC.
Capt. hook
>training and leadership problem.
>
>Of course you do. By suggesting such a >problem exists, you can
>suggest that the problem didn't exist in >your time
no, thats your sugestion jerry, perhaps a guilt reflex?
>In my days the old D's set the example, >discouraging stupid tricks while
>encouraging pratice of thinking out >your >outs-praticing basic emergency
>proceedure hands on gear and pin checks...while everybody was standingaround
in the loading area doing nothing.
>What a coincidence - it's still the same >today
No jerry I think you don't grasp the concept
Its not standing around in your booties trying to look cool, real leadership
requires action. Talks cheap
>If you got a problem with people not >caring much about each other and the
>novices, maybe you should get out to a
>drozpone and effect some sort of >solution,
If I was still jumping I would and probably catch a lotta shit just like I do
on here
because it makes certain do nothing skygod types feel inadequate.
>suggesting vanity and people striving to >look cool as a situation which is
endemic >to the sport now
More mainstream suberbia in now, with it comes the Suberban you are what you
own, keeping up with the Jones you see
Capt. hook
>bag comes out thats a full blown >horseshoe kid
>There's less chance of that on a BOC.
I'm rather old fashioned, anything pin related should be easy to operate with
either hand...bridal snags are primarly caused by sloppy skydiving...work on
these flaws rather than putting it where its
difficult to reach is what I'm thinking
SkydiverRick
What about other peoples sloppy skydiving?
Jerry K.
>>I think its a
>>training and leadership problem.
>>
>>Of course you do. By suggesting such a >problem exists, you can
>>suggest that the problem didn't exist in >your time
>
>no, thats your sugestion jerry, perhaps a guilt reflex?
No, I suggest that the problem may well have existed when you jumped -
certainly if your outcome is factored into the mix.
>
>
>>In my days the old D's set the example, >discouraging stupid tricks while
>>encouraging pratice of thinking out >your >outs-praticing basic emergency
>>proceedure hands on gear and pin checks...while everybody was standingaround
>in the loading area doing nothing.
>
>>What a coincidence - it's still the same >today
>
>No jerry I think you don't grasp the concept
>Its not standing around in your booties trying to look cool, real leadership
>requires action. Talks cheap
Who says that "standing around in your booties trying to look cool,"
is trying to pass itself off as a substitute for leadership? You do.
But then, you're not around to accurately assess whether such a
problem exists and, for that matter, even if such a problem did exist,
which it does not, you're certainly doing nothing more than, not just
talking about it, but using the idea as a springboard for your own,
self-affirming, brand of rhetorical bullshit. Talk is cheap.
>
>>If you got a problem with people not >caring much about each other and the
>>novices, maybe you should get out to a
>>drozpone and effect some sort of >solution,
>
>If I was still jumping I would and probably catch a lotta shit just like I do
>on here
>because it makes certain do nothing skygod types feel inadequate.
Which raises the question of when you were still jumping, were you
effecting some sort of solution? If the answer is yes, then based on
your own standards, fat lot of good it did and if the answer is no,
pretty fucking hypocritical.
>
>>suggesting vanity and people striving to >look cool as a situation which is
>endemic >to the sport now
>
>More mainstream suberbia in now, with it comes the Suberban you are what you
>own, keeping up with the Jones you see
What, you take a poll? Been going to dz's and following people home
to see where they live? Nonsense. "You are what you own," and
"keeping up with the Jones," more nonsense. This may come as a
surprise but people buy gear because it suits their needs and if one
person decides they want a black rig, who the fuck are you to
disparage that - especially since you once had a jumpsuit made in
specific, exacting, and personally pleasing *colors.* Nevermind,
adorning the jumpsuit with various badges in your own personal pursuit
of keeping up with the joneses.
...bsrp
...jlk
SkydiverRick
> Which raises the question of when you were still jumping, were you
> effecting some sort of solution?
He was too busy standing around in his army boots and goatee trying to look
cool.
Jerry K.
Except for when he was landing, that is - a not so subtle
demonstration of the poor training and leadership of the time...and no
standing either.
...bsrp
...jlk
Jerry K.
>>Subject: Re: Hard pull on BOC: direction of pull seems important
>>From: Jerry K. sky...@pdq.net
>>Date: 5/26/04 11:16 AM Eastern Daylight Time
>>Message-id: <d1d9b0t1up2t3nsuf...@4ax.com>
>
>>if it snags onto anything and yer bag comes
>>>out thats a full blown horseshoe kid...try
>>>to expand your narrow mind.
>
>>I think you should stop being so fearfull.
>>
>>...bsrp
>>...jlk
>
>His biggest fear is his computer not starting up. Snuff doesn't skydive and
>hasn't for almost 10 years, Next he will be telling you about how main ripcords
>are safer, but he wouldn't know anuything about that either.
That or a fear of accepting things as they are. He lacks zen.
...bsrp
...jlk
Capt. hook
of the injuries and fatality lie now isn't it?)
while encouraging pratice of thinking out your outs
praticing basic emergency
proceedure
>hands on gear and pin checks
This takes some leadership by example to keep them motivated.
>What a coincidence - it's still the same >today
on a hit or miss basis no doubt. I think you don't grasp the concept sissyboy
Its not standing around in your booties trying to look cool, real leadership
requires action. Talks cheap
>you're not around to accurately assess >whether such a problem exist
The self serving ego's on here tell me the problenm not only exists but is a
much deeper problem than before.
>even if such a problem did exist,
>which it does not, you're certainly doing >nothing more than talking
due to age, disability and living on a fixed income, thats about all I can
afford to do.
When I was still jumping I did all I could for them and got about the same
response I do here from a few skygods who thought novices should pay for
everything...a lotta what USPA2000 DZ's
charge for now were part of a on going program in my day. Looks like the GM
sharpies decided to bundle and sell it piece meal...Struggling young skydivers
were given a boost up. Self packing and certain air survival skills was
required to graduate, airskills were polished for the simple price of a jump
ticket. No teaching certificate required...bored D's just took them up and did
shit in the air with them
handing out tips on any flaws they observed...It was a slower process sure and
more old fashioned sweat and ground time was involved but you learned it well.
When suberban cheeze eaters like you got into the sport you took advantage of
the old ways then went straight to being stuck up and expecting money. Now its
about money from top to bottom, Ya ain't looking out for the sheep right
anymore bottom feeder.
>If you got a problem with people not >caring much about each other and the
>novices, maybe you should get out to a
>drozpone and effect some sort of >solution,
The problem may well be deep in the American fabric, perhaps I should run for
Congress. besides If I was still jumping I would and probably catch a lotta
shit just like I do on here for preaching the old fugal way
>Which raises the question of when you >were still jumping, were you
>effecting some sort of solution?
Yeah the zoo ROFL
"Fit Via Vi"
Capt. hook
>comes out thats a full blown horseshoe >kid...try to expand your narrow mind.
>I think you should stop being so fearfull.
Nothing to be fearfull of, didn't have a AAD to mess me up, everything on my
rig was manual plus the early 90's static line training paid off. I had at
least 3 horse shoes...of different varitys plus some bag in tows, all high
though...The problem with the bag in tow was we found a roll of old green
parachute cord in the dz junkpile-it wore like iron so some of us decided to
make closing loops out of it. (the brighter students were taught how to do that
on student staus at SPX you know) Unfortunately it didn't have the elastisity
of the more modern white pc cord...it was rather stiff and waxy...stood up to
wear & pull up cord burn ok but wouldn't snap back to its original shape and
tended to force the pin out. Its a hell of a rush to have your bag hit you in
the back of the head durning a RW transition. Talk about people backing out of
formation hahahaha whoaaaa what a rush 0;->
"Fit Via Vi"
Capt. hook
True, where would you be without me then chuck?
>hasn't for almost 10 years
Seems I came back and made one more jump for old times sake in 2000 after
a 4 year layoff due to a stroke, that would make it far less than 10 chuck, put
your shoes on your counting to high boy.
> Next he will be telling you about how >main ripcords are safer, but he
wouldn't >know anuything about that either.
Oh yes I would, thought about keeping the ripcord system....big john did, he
didn't pull his all the way though, therefore didn't loose them at the rate I
did, so one day I'm thinking shit loosing these bitchs is getting expensive so
I stuck one in my mouth rather than throw it to deal with something else with
both hands and my false teeth came loose...That was really expensive...
Went right to a ROL and never regreted it.
John was still using a rip cord when I retired in 96 and still doing well with
it
"Fit Via Vi"
Capt. hook
thats a full blown horseshoe with bag in tow kid
>There's less chance of that on a BOC.
>I'm rather old fashioned, anything pin >related should be easy to operate with
>either hand bridal snags are primarly >caused by sloppy packing and >body
position or wearing shit >unessassary to skydiving. like hiking boots with eye
hooks for instance
I'm just saying remove the snag points and work on these other flaws rather
than putting it where its difficult to reach and pull with your off hand
>What about other peoples sloppy >skydiving?
teach them the correct path, cums right down to it though its a freedom of
choice issue just like Cypres in my mind. Like cypres natzi's though BOC
people are gonna try to force them on other people
without pointing out their flaws
"Fit Via Vi"
Jerry K.
>>His biggest fear is his computer not starting up
>
>True, where would you be without me then chuck?
>
>>hasn't for almost 10 years
>
>Seems I came back and made one more jump for old times sake in 2000 after
>a 4 year layoff due to a stroke,
No, you have often said you made the jump towards the goal of getting
back to your 125 or jumps/year but I see the "for old time's sake"
idea - no thinking things through then as before and as for jumping in
2000, would that make you USPA2000? Or would you like to amend the
actual year of that jump back to 1999?
>that would make it far less than 10 chuck, put
>your shoes on your counting to high boy.
But then, you've often said that you stopped jumping in 1996 so while
that is still less than 10, it's not by much. Call it eight years or
eight weeks - significantly uncurrent, just the same.
...bsrp
...jlk
Capt. hook
plasticized way...stood up to wear & pull up cord burn ok but tended to retain
its round shape and was more apt to roll the pin out
>That what riggers are for stupid. If you >can not identify the type of
>material specified for it's proper use.
it worked to some degree as long as you kept a tight closing loop and its the
age old principle of "if ya didn't ask, nobody could say no".
>.bounce away Snuff..
nah I didn't hook much chuck.
>smartest man on the NG giving more advice........."brighter students were
>taught how to do that"......I suspose that >you were taught how to performe a
>100 hour on the AC as well
Nope, just how to operate the door and spot...hell the pilot wouldn't even let
me push any buttons, often made me sit behind his seat where I couldn't reach
anything on the instrument panel...gawd
did he hate wet willys 0;->
"Fit Via Vi"
Jerry K.
>>where the pc goes a bridal follows if it >snags onto anything and yer bag
>>comes out thats a full blown horseshoe >kid...try to expand your narrow mind.
>
>>I think you should stop being so fearfull.
>
>Nothing to be fearfull of, didn't have a AAD to mess me up,
Nevermind that an AAD would not have anything to do with "the pc goes
a bridal (and) follows if it snags onto anything and yer bag comes out
thats a full blown horseshoe." You should try to expand your narrow
mind.
>everything on my
>rig was manual
Hmmm...and the RSL? The kill-line collapsable pc? Everything?
>plus the early 90's static line training paid off.
Aside from teaching you how to hold onto a ripcord, stand up a
landing, and maybe how to think things through, sure - you got some
survival skills out of it at the barest possible minimum.
>I had at
>least 3 horse shoes...of different varitys plus some bag in tows, all high
>though...
Let me guess - were they due to the ROL, poor packing technique, vain
people not looking out for each other, a lack of air-skills, or a
failure in training and leadership?
>The problem with the bag in tow was we found a roll of old green
>parachute cord in the dz junkpile-it wore like iron so some of us decided to
>make closing loops out of it. (the brighter students were taught how to do that
>on student staus at SPX you know) Unfortunately it didn't have the elastisity
>of the more modern white pc cord...it was rather stiff and waxy...stood up to
>wear & pull up cord burn ok
You know, there are ways, easy ways, to avoid and certainly minimalize
fatiguing the closing loop - and they ain't new. Where the hell was
the training and leadership back then?
>but wouldn't snap back to its original shape and
>tended to force the pin out.
So, it was a failure in training and leadership which brought about
the use of inefficient system compents or was it a lack of gear checks
and looking out for each other which gave the pin the green light to
continue to be forced out?
>Its a hell of a rush to have your bag hit you in
>the back of the head durning a RW transition.
I'd like to see the video - I'm betting it was more of you hitting the
bag with the back of your head during mid-flail.
>Talk about people backing out of
>formation hahahaha whoaaaa what a rush
What, they didn't keep turning points? Not serious about their rw it
seems.
...bsrp
...jlk
Capt. hook
This takes some leadership by example to keep them motivated
>They aint in the Army Snuff
With all that buck passing going on in the Army over that POW abuse in Iraq and
just low ranking people hanging for it, looks like they need a little Navy
motivation by a Leading Petty Officer of the line...The buck stops with the
NCO's buddy boy and the skipper should be in direct contact with them besides
the same leadership principles apply in real life, its like rasing kids. The
responsibility is yours ya just gotta kick ass and take names once in a while.
We were hard on our J.O's too by the way...My last skipper a pre WWII officer
gave the boat coxuns a can of white paint to coat the toe of our boondockers
with. A Ensign I was breaking in said "WHATS THAT FOR?"
My division officer drawled:
"Oh thats so we will know how many mistakes you made as a new boat officer.
We just count the white marks on your butt when you get back!"
>Kerry could use another liberal to >support him Snuff, go right ahead.
I'm voting democrat, always have always will kid cuz I was a working man all my
life
and my people have been southern democrats since the war of northern agression,
plus it piss's a lot of USPA2000
types off, I'd do it on that principle alone
"Fit Via Vi"
Jerry K.
>> set the example, discouraging stupid hooking tricks (thats where the majority
>of the injuries and fatality lie now isn't it?)
>while encouraging pratice of thinking out your outs
>
>praticing basic emergency
>proceedure
>
>>hands on gear and pin checks
>
>This takes some leadership by example to keep them motivated.
Heh - where was that leadership and where were those gear checks
during those three horseshoe's of yours?
>
>>What a coincidence - it's still the same >today
>
>on a hit or miss basis no doubt. I think you don't grasp the concept sissyboy
>Its not standing around in your booties trying to look cool, real leadership
>requires action. Talks cheap
>
>>you're not around to accurately assess >whether such a problem exist
>
>The self serving ego's on here tell me the problenm not only exists but is a
>much deeper problem than before.
That's a hell of a stretch to make. By that token, the fact that you
make such a stretch and get so worked up over it, indicates *just as
much* that any such problem has got to be far, far less than it was
before - certainly a fraction of what you imagine.
>
>>even if such a problem did exist,
>>which it does not, you're certainly doing >nothing more than talking
>
>due to age, disability and living on a fixed income, thats about all I can
>afford to do.
Don't be a victim. The rest of us are limited in our ability (and
interest) to fix all those problems residing in your imagination.
>When I was still jumping I did all I could for them and got about the same
>response I do here from a few skygods who thought novices should pay for
>everything...
So, things weren't so rightous during the "outlaw 90's," eh?
>a lotta what USPA2000 DZ's
>charge for now were part of a on going program in my day.
Such as? Well then, it's up to you to get out to the dz's and make a
difference. Undercut what they charge. Let the people vote with
their wallet and their feet.
>Looks like the GM
>sharpies decided to bundle and sell it piece meal...
Bundle it into piecemeal? Tha's kind of a contradiction but as for
sharpies selling whatever...such as?
>Struggling young skydivers
>were given a boost up.
Just as they are now...
>Self packing and certain air survival skills was
>required to graduate,
Just as they are now...
>airskills were polished for the simple price of a jump
>ticket.
Just as they are now...
>No teaching certificate required...
What? You're advocating people jumping with novices without some sort
of credentials or portfolio? This is a turnaround!
>bored D's just took them up and did
>shit in the air with them
>handing out tips on any flaws they observed...
And they still do...
>It was a slower process sure and
>more old fashioned sweat and ground time was involved but you learned it well.
Just as it is learned now...
>When suberban cheeze eaters like you got into the sport you took advantage of
>the old ways then went straight to being stuck up and expecting money.
And you've made this conclusion because of what? Because I often
expose your words with the light of reality and in so doing, display
how stupid, narrow minded, and vain you can be sometimes?
>Now its
>about money from top to bottom, Ya ain't looking out for the sheep right
>anymore bottom feeder.
Says who? You been out to a dz lately? You don't have a clue. As
you've already said - you've concluded all this by merely reading the
words of what you construe as "The self serving ego's on here."
>
>>If you got a problem with people not >caring much about each other and the
>>novices, maybe you should get out to a
>>drozpone and effect some sort of >solution,
>
>The problem may well be deep in the American fabric,
Ah, well - why aren't you crossposting over to rec.american.fabric?
>perhaps I should run for
>Congress. besides If I was still jumping I would and probably catch a lotta
>shit just like I do on here for preaching the old fugal way
Naw, I mean - people would probably roll their eyes a lot, bug you
about buying your beer for all the preaching, but I think now, as
before, most of the shit you would be getting would be for aerial
stupidities and screwing up. You got Shake'n'Bake written all over
you. Need a damned big tarp for it, though.
>>Which raises the question of when you >were still jumping, were you
>>effecting some sort of solution?
>
>Yeah the zoo ROFL
All right and fine and dandy. Fat lot of good it did, eh?
...bsrp
...jlk
Jerry K.
>>Subject: Re: Hard pull on BOC: direction of pull seems important
>>From: to...@aol.com (Capt. hook)
>>Date: 5/26/04 1:32 PM Eastern Daylight Time
>>Message-id: <20040526133225...@mb-m11.aol.com>
>Snuff wrote:
>>This takes some leadership by example to keep them motivated
>
>They aint in the Army Snuff
>
>>The problem may well be deep in the American fabric, perhaps I should run for
>>Congress. besides If I was still jumping I would and probably catch a lotta
>>shit just like I do on here for preaching the old fugal way
>
>Kerry could use another liberal to support him Snuff, go right ahead.
>
>> I was still jumping I would and probably catch a lotta
>>shit just like I do on here for preaching the old fugal way
>>
>
>If the Queen had balls, she would be King.
Nice one. Good double, perhaps triple, entendre.
...bsrp
...jlk
Jerry K.
>>Unfortunately it didn't have the elastisity
>>of the more modern white pc cord...it was rather stiff and waxy in a
>plasticized way...stood up to wear & pull up cord burn ok but tended to retain
>its round shape and was more apt to roll the pin out
>
>>That what riggers are for stupid. If you >can not identify the type of
>>material specified for it's proper use.
>
>it worked to some degree as long as you kept a tight closing loop and its the
>age old principle of "if ya didn't ask, nobody could say no".
Seems the loop, when asked by the pin if it would deny the pin the
ability to work itself free prior to the pc doing the job, said no.
>>.bounce away Snuff..
>
>nah I didn't hook much chuck.
Nevermind that with a horsehoe stands a good possibility that any
future hookturn could well be discounted.
>
>>smartest man on the NG giving more advice........."brighter students were
>>taught how to do that"......I suspose that >you were taught how to performe a
>>100 hour on the AC as well
>
>Nope, just how to operate the door and spot...hell the pilot wouldn't even let
>me push any buttons, often made me sit behind his seat where I couldn't reach
>anything on the instrument panel...gawd
>did he hate wet willys
Was that an example of his leadership and training or was he being
ruled by fear?
...bsrp
...jlk
Jerry K.
David? Any comments? Just curious.
Thanks,
-Jerry
Capt. hook
>Nevermind that an AAD would not have >anything to do with a snag.
If you go thru 750 ft plus or minus and it fires into the mess I'd say it does,
besides
everything on my rig was manual.
>Hmmm...and the RSL?
required a pull by me to activate.
>The kill-line collapsable pc?
required cocking and deployment by me.
>Everything?
yes everything btw way I had some funny cocking pc incidents also.
>I had at least 3 horse shoes...of different >varitys plus some bag in tows,
all high
>Let me guess - were they due to the ROL
no, mostly worn or uncombed velcro on the pc bridal and loose or stiff closing
loop.
>poor packing technique
yes these things should be noticed durning the packing process I mean it wasn't
like we were pro packing and had our head stuck under a armpit or anything. We
noticed everything.
>vain?
yeah the old skydiver vanity of hell I'm in a hurry and it will make it one
more time
~I'm gonna jump it~
>The problem with the bag in tow was we >found a roll of old green parachute
cord in >the dz junkpile it wore like iron stood up to wear & pull up cord burn
better but lacked the elastisity of modern pc cord
>it was rather stiff and waxy, had a heavy
cord in its center that tended to keep it round.
>You know, there are ways, easy ways, to >avoid and certainly minimalize
>fatiguing the closing loop - and they ain't >new. Where the hell was
>the training and leadership back then?
Oh yeah we were taught to put the pin between the pull up cord and the closing
loop when extracting it...but in a hurry and with sweat running in your eyes
(no A/C in the hanger back then ya know, and we packed on the hanger floor
where airplanes were normally parked we didn't always pratice what we were
taught though...to busy advoiding oil puddles and elbowing each other for room
>So, it was a failure in training and >leadership
I saw a kid with a B counting the remaining strands in his closing loop once,
being unlicenced at the time I just said shit that looks bad, three strands and
all brown?
A D across the room hollers
"IS THERE A PACKING PROBLEM OVER THERE?"
The kid, a 1989 static line grad sez, HELL NO I GOT A RSL and RESERVE!"
We were just different than yawl in our thought process...we knew it was risky
and the consequinces of our decisions, just had more zen and were less
histronic
than you modern fancy lads is all.
"Fit Via Vi"
Capt. hook
>me push any buttons, often made me sit >behind his seat where I couldn't
>reach anything on the instrument panel.
>The pilot's job is to open the door on a >Cesna 182 or like aircraft,
For students and their jumpmasters maybe, but when he made the final up wind
turn and called jumprun, we got the seatbelts off and got on our knee's
starting to move around. A old worn cessna and a load of big boys throws the CG
off some on hot summer days so often he kept both hands flying the aircraft and
just hollered door and one of us popped it. The pilots choice of course. Being
mostly D licenced skydivers our pilots all knew they were going to have to take
a certain amount of shit from skydivers in the door but they gave it early
anyway then got even with us on the climbout
"5 left"
pause
"5 left"
OH MY GOD TEN RIGHT!"
Yeeeeeeha Time building control freaks cuddn't of hacked it back then
them.....them
"Fit Via Vi"
Capt. hook
>Seems I came back and made one more >jump for old times sake in 2000 after
>a 4 year layoff due to a stroke,
>No, you have often said you made the >jump towards the goal of getting
>back to your 125 or jumps/year but I see >the "for old time's sake"
a pipe dream, shit jump tickets are twice the price and in just a few years, no
way to pay for that on a fixed income...one jump every six months wudda been
about my limit, good thing my rotten old paralized leg broke in 5 places, yawl
mighta corruped my pure sweet innocent old soul. Besides its more fun calling
the young skygod twits USPA2000 wennies without the comeback-"Oh yeah? Your
USPA to!
"Fit Via Vi"
Capt. hook
99, if it hadda been 2000 that wudda made me a twit USPA2000 wouldn't it? Yup
1999 for sure LOG IT
"Fit Via Vi"
Capt. hook
after a 4 year layoff due to a stroke and learning to walk again, that would
make it far less than 10
>Attempted suicide don't count
Funny you mention that chuck, I can remember when skydiving wasn't mainstream
and all woofo's thought that
very same thing every time we jumped
"Fit Via Vi"
Jerry K.
>>Nothing to be fearfull of, didn't have a >AAD to mess me up
>
>>Nevermind that an AAD would not have >anything to do with a snag.
>
>If you go thru 750 ft plus or minus and it fires into the mess I'd say it does,
>besides
>everything on my rig was manual.
Another "If." Man, you really have the fear, doncha. But, to be
fair, if you're fighting a horseshoe while going through 750', while
an AAD *might * fire into the mess *and it might not.* Of course, an
ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure and as for the AAD, might
or might not, I like those odds.
>
> >Hmmm...and the RSL?
>
>required a pull by me to activate.
Hell, by that token, you still got to turn on the AAD for it to have a
chance of activating and as for the RSL, the reserve would still
*automatically* be activated once a handle other than the reserve
handle was pulled.
>
>>The kill-line collapsable pc?
>
>required cocking and deployment by me.
For it to work properly, sure ,but providing you did that, it would
still *automatically* collapse after it had done its job.
>
>>Everything?
>
>yes everything btw way I had some funny cocking pc incidents also.
Nope, not everything it seems and as for pc incidents, were they the
result of poor leadership and training or poor air-skills?
>
>>I had at least 3 horse shoes...of different >varitys plus some bag in tows,
>all high
>
>>Let me guess - were they due to the ROL
>
>no, mostly worn or uncombed velcro on the pc bridal and loose or stiff closing
>loop.
I see - poor training and people not looking out for each other.
>
>>poor packing technique
>
>yes these things should be noticed durning the packing process I mean it wasn't
>like we were pro packing and had our head stuck under a armpit or anything. We
>noticed everything.
Where was the leadership and training which allowed such poor packing
technique to occur?
>
>>vain?
>
>yeah the old skydiver vanity of hell I'm in a hurry and it will make it one
>more time
> ~I'm gonna jump it~
Where was the training which would have taught you that it's not a
race and where was the leadership which would have instructed to slow
down and think things through?
>
>
>>The problem with the bag in tow was we >found a roll of old green parachute
>cord in >the dz junkpile it wore like iron stood up to wear & pull up cord burn
>better but lacked the elastisity of modern pc cord
>>it was rather stiff and waxy, had a heavy
>cord in its center that tended to keep it round.
>
>>You know, there are ways, easy ways, to >avoid and certainly minimalize
>>fatiguing the closing loop - and they ain't >new. Where the hell was
>>the training and leadership back then?
>
>Oh yeah we were taught to put the pin between the pull up cord and the closing
>loop when extracting it...but in a hurry and with sweat running in your eyes
>(no A/C in the hanger back then ya know, and we packed on the hanger floor
>where airplanes were normally parked we didn't always pratice what we were
>taught though...to busy advoiding oil puddles and elbowing each other for room
Seems the training wasn't up to standard and the leadership would have
ensured that everyone did their job the right way - nevermind looking
out for each other and doing gear checks.
>
>>So, it was a failure in training and >leadership
>
>I saw a kid with a B counting the remaining strands in his closing loop once,
>being unlicenced at the time I just said shit that looks bad, three strands and
>all brown?
>A D across the room hollers
>"IS THERE A PACKING PROBLEM OVER THERE?"
>The kid, a 1989 static line grad sez, HELL NO I GOT A RSL and RESERVE!"
>We were just different than yawl in our thought process...we knew it was risky
>and the consequinces of our decisions, just had more zen and were less
>histronic
>than you modern fancy lads is all.
Hell, it's not the rest of us gargling what-ifs like broken limbs on
exits, pins coming loose, horseshoes, bridles wrapping around limbs,
go(ing) thru 750 ft plus or minus and it fires into the mess, ect. in
some effort to substantiate the pros of ROL vs the cons of BOC (with a
weak bit of rhetorical bullshit regarding AAD's.)
...bsrp
...jlk
Jerry K.
So you were perhaps the last of a long line of 90's twits, it seems.
...bsrp
...jlk
Capt. hook
>of jumps that you made, I have never had >a malfunction of any kind
I'd call that luck chuck. Geeze are you vain about everything kid, how many
dumps do you take a day? Prolly got me beat on the hemmoroid situation also Mr.
anal
"Fit Via Vi"
Jerry K.
I got news for ya - the whuffos still do, and as for mainstream and
other assessments of the rhetorical vein, that's just caste xenophobia
on your part.
...bsrp
...jlk
Jerry K.
>>I guess I'm too stupid to get it Snuff. >With well over ten times the number
>>of jumps that you made, I have never had >a malfunction of any kind
>
>I'd call that luck chuck.
Hmmm....three horseshoes in 300 some odd jumps? Dumb luck?
I've had two malfunctions in almost 3000 jumps. Poor leadership and
training, of course - I am ashamed.
...bsrp
...jlk
Capt. hook
>of the more modern white pc cord
>That what riggers are for stupid.
a rigger showed me how to make a closing loop. Mike Bate was his name, didn't
use riggers for much else...reserve repacks is about all, hell we cleaned our
own cable housings hooked our risers back up at the time....Well Mike Smith did
sew me a split slider once...I agrivated the rest of them while idle-like
waiting on a load to be called. Kept a needle and thread in my gear bag and
would slide over by Tony at Waller in the T-bo days and pretend to be sewing on
my rig........Geeze his hair would stand up and he would start slobbering. I'm
bad about picking at people in case you haven't noticed 0;)
Capt. hook
>This takes some leadership by example >to keep them motivated.
>Heh - where was that leadership and >where were those gear checks
>during those three horseshoe's of yours?
I was the first to discover green pc cord was bad juju, the riggers then put
out the word and started pulling any green pc closing loops out of the main
tray if they caught them at reserve repack time...I
wuzzn't the only one doing it you know and refused to squeel on Art and a few
others. Besides I didn't mention the many saves we accomplished with our
hardnosed old attitudes.
HEY ASSHOLE YOUR BRIDALS HANGING!
reserve handle turned under
flaps up etc etc etc
>What a coincidence - it's still the same >today.
bullshit you would roll in a minute ya young longhaired bitch.
>Don't be a victim. The rest of us are >limited in our ability (and
>interest) to fix all those problems
Which wouldn't be brought up on this skydiving disscussion group if I wasn't a
catalyst and so open and uncaring of what punks thought of m...one might even
say I'm provocative. Ignoring potential problems or not talking about them,
don't make them go away jerry...There's a constant turnover out there not to
mention a influx of new skydivers every spring Jerry. You need to stay after it
and try to be more honest with each other
"Fit Via Vi"
Capt. hook
>my life
>Good for you Snuff, vote away. I told you >that you and Kerry had more in
>common than puting himself in for a >purple heart on a day that his crew said
>no one was shooting at them.
thats another reason to vote for him, send a message to you anal REMF vets
running his medals down for by doing so yawl sully ever purple hear ever
issued. Hell President Johnson put in for and got the Navy Cross for flying
over to the south pacific on a junket durning WW2. Officers are often medal
crazy...lookit all them Generals on CNN with air & other ribbons from shoulder
to belly button. Shit they look like Russian Commisars when in all truth many
are for just being in the area or possibly riding as a passanger on a
helecopter 25 times to a whore house in Saigon else they lost a lotta men in
the field while they were in a air conditioned bucker way behind the lines and
were awarded a bronze star to salv their concious or fired on a water buffalo
from their Command chopper and got the CIB for it. Ya gotta ignore certain
officer games Chuck because many more men have earned them the hard way, so
when you run ribbons like Kerrys down over politics your spitting on the hard
earned medals also. Some vet you are, I bet you was a lotta help in Vietnam
sweety 0;-*
"Fit Via Vi"
Capt. hook
>killer.
I gave up killing in 1970 and child psycology is all thats needed on wreck
Capt. hook
>of jumps that you made, I have never had >a malfunction of any kind
you have over 4,000 jumps...Guess ya think I fell off the turnip truck huh
Chuck?
"Fit Via Vi"
Jerry K.
>>hands on gear and pin checks
>>This takes some leadership by example >to keep them motivated.
>
>>Heh - where was that leadership and >where were those gear checks
>>during those three horseshoe's of yours?
>
>I was the first to discover green pc cord was bad juju,
Actually, the pin learned it first.
>the riggers then put
>out the word and started pulling any green pc closing loops out of the main
>tray if they caught them at reserve repack time...
What? No general annoucement and inspection of closing loops? Where
was the leadership then?
>I
>wuzzn't the only one doing it you know and refused to squeel on Art and a few
>others. Besides I didn't mention the many saves we accomplished with our
>hardnosed old attitudes.
>HEY ASSHOLE YOUR BRIDALS HANGING!
Yeah, yeah - that's standard. No different today.
>
>reserve handle turned under
>
>flaps up etc etc etc
What ou fail to realize is that with your absence, such actions are
not also absent.
>
>>What a coincidence - it's still the same >today.
>
>bullshit you would roll in a minute ya young longhaired bitch.
Says you - I'm there and you're not. You're just he only one bitching
about but then, no one else has your proclivity for self-affirming
fantasy.
>
>
>
>>Don't be a victim. The rest of us are >limited in our ability (and
>>interest) to fix all those problems
>
>Which wouldn't be brought up on this skydiving disscussion group if I wasn't a
>catalyst and so open and uncaring of what punks thought of m...
What, the problems within your imagination? Well, your imagination
wouldn't be called into question if you weren't presenting it on a
public forum.
>one might even
>say I'm provocative. Ignoring potential problems or not talking about them,
>don't make them go away jerry...
Funny, when anyone else considers, discusses, or even imagines
*potential* problems, how is it you tend to assign the idea as based
in fear, poor training, and a lack of leadership? ROL? *Potential*
problems? What if you break a wrist on exit? Feh. Not to be
discounted but certainly not particluarly usefull in praising ROL
while at the same time, damning BOC.
>There's a constant turnover out there not to
>mention a influx of new skydivers every spring Jerry.
This is true - another reason to call you on your crap if any of them
wander into here.
>You need to stay after it
>and try to be more honest with each other
Oh, it's being kept after and as for more honesty, you might consider
taking that suggestion to heart one of these days.
...bsrp
...jlk
Capt. hook
>
>Funny you mention that chuck, I can >remember when skydiving wasn't
>mainstream and all woofo's thought that
>very same thing every time we jumped
>Want to try and paint me as a woofo Mr. >Trickey man. I started skydiving
>before you did and I still skydive
and still think like a wuffo also Chuck
~if it walks like a duck~
must be why your nerves are so bad
"Fit Via Vi"
Capt. hook
>I'm voting democrat, always have always >will kid
>David? Any comments? Just curious.
>
>Thanks,
>
>-Jerry
Thats the American way Jerry USPA2000 politics don't work, one man, one vote
and yer allowed to vote for whom you wish...I'm cancling out treetops vote with
mine David will have to make other plans <eg>
"Fit Via Vi"