Safety Day experiment
Geronimo
Background Information
On June 5, 1983 a jumper fell partially out of his rig. He was involved
in a crw wrap. After the cutaway, his foot momentarily hung up on the
other guy's canopy. He was upsidedown. He shook loose of the canopy and
that's when he fell out (backwards) of his harness. The leg straps were
caught around his knees. The horizontals were up under his arm pits. The
jumper pulled his reserve & fortunately landed safely in water.
The rig he had was a Racer. The Racer at that time had adjustable side
horizontals (as did most rigs of that era).
Sometime this year, a tandem passenger almost fell out backwards of her
harness (Sigma tandem). The harness was NOT properly adjusted.
In the 1990's rigs have become very small in relation to a jumper's
body. Many people jump articulated harnesses.
Harnesses in the 60s & 70s had a horizontal back strap very similar to
the one in the Sigma tandem harness.
http://www.relativeworkshop.com/tandem/ssh6.htm
Other harnesses had a sling. This prevented the leg straps from dropping
down to your knees.
On most of today's rigs there is no separate horizontal back strap. The
lower part of the main pack tray provides the function of 'preventing a
jumper from falling out backwards'.
On articulated harnesses and shorter containers the bottom of the main
pack tray might be high - above the waist of a jumper. An example is on
the cover of Jan 2002 Skydiving. The jumper in red in the foreground has
a rig that looks like he could fall out backwards under the right
conditions. If that jumper had a hard, premature main opening right then
- it looks like it's possible for him to fall out.
The question I have is can you to fall out of your rig backwards with
the main out of the pack tray?
I asked one H&C mfg this when articulated harnesses first came out. He
gave me an answer along the lines 'that will never happen' As far as I
know, there have not been any tests (formal or informal) to see how easy
it is to fall out backwards.
On articulated harnesses, the angle between the horizontals & leg straps
can be quite large.
The Experiment
With the main out of the pack tray and your leg and chest straps
fastened as you have them for a jump, try to back out of your rig.
You'll have to bend at the waist & pull the reserve up, over your head.
And you might have to 'help' the leg straps move towards your knees.
This little bit of help would be provided by a premature opening on a
real jump.
The question you want to answer is - can I fall out backwards??
The degree of difficulty is not as important in this informal survey.
Re - the little bungy cross connector between leg straps.
That bungy & binding tape can easily break during a premature opening if
you were in a sitfly position.
The fact that jumpers have these is indicative that we are already
noticing that we are falling out of our rigs.
Please try this little experiment & let me know how it went. It's easy
to do just after landing. I think you will be surprised. I certainly
was.
--
Geronimo
mailto:Gero...@ParachuteHistory.com
http://www.ParachuteHistory.com
D16842
> If that jumper had a hard, premature main opening right then
>- it looks like it's possible for him to fall out.
Good question Jan.
>On articulated harnesses, the angle between the horizontals & leg straps
>can be quite large.
>
True enough.
>With the main out of the pack tray and your leg and chest straps
>fastened as you have them for a jump, try to back out of your rig.
>You'll have to bend at the waist & pull the reserve up, over your head.
I want to see Jimbo try that.
>The question you want to answer is - can I fall out backwards??
>The degree of difficulty is not as important in this informal survey.
Lets say he trys it, and get stuck with it somewhere around his shoulders and
knees, what would his brother skydivers do with him?
>Please try this little experiment & let me know how it went.
I will be amazed if this experiment's outcome does not depend heavily on one's
relative torso length and flexiblity. In other words, I don't think Jimbo and I
are going to fall out. I suspect several women I know easily could.
Tom B
Sboz0
>>With the main out of the pack tray and your leg and chest straps
>>fastened as you have them for a jump, try to back out of your rig.
>>You'll have to bend at the waist & pull the reserve up, over your head.
>
>I want to see Jimbo try that.
I can do that. Pull a rig over my self, easy. Hey Bubba, watch this...
Uh...hello, anybody out there?
I seem to be stuck here...
Rig is jammed up over my shoulders with my knees pinned up there and I can't
get up or down. HELP!!!! Anybody, HELP!!!
Sound of doorbell... Thank the Gods! Come in!
I knew one of my skydiving buddies would help me in this time of distress
OH MY GOD!! Oh No..Oh No..IT'S BRUCE!
(to be continued after a cigarette.)
Livendive
at our DZ. Nobody believed me, including one very good skydiver with
thousands of jumps and over 25 years experience. So I put my rig on with
the main *in* the tray, got into a fast sit position and pulled my legstraps
about a third of the way up my thighs. I then had someone grab the rig at
the risers and yank upwards...it came off *very* easily. My rig is sized
perfectly for me. IIRC, we did it with someone else too, just to show it
wasn't specific to my container type.
That Skydive America ad that's been in Parachutist several times shows a big
guy sitflying (white suit, white rig I think). I've posted here before that
his rig would *certainly* come off him in a premature deployment.
Blues,
Dave
"Geronimo" <Gero...@ParachuteHistory.com> wrote in message
news:3C851D51...@ParachuteHistory.com...
Livendive
"D16842" <d16...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:20020305161027...@mb-fi.aol.com...
> I will be amazed if this experiment's outcome does not depend heavily on
one's
> relative torso length and flexiblity. In other words, I don't think Jimbo
and I
> are going to fall out. I suspect several women I know easily could.
I'm not *that* much smaller than Jim, and my rig comes off easily. I
suspect his would too, which may be why he don't sitfly. :-) FYI - in a
premature opening your "comfort level" flexibility is irrelevant...your body
will follow the path of least resistance, and if that happens to require
tearing some ligaments or breaking some bones, well your rig just won't
care.
Blues,
Dave
Wendy Faulkner
Livendive <live...@aol.com> wrote:
>
>That Skydive America ad that's been in Parachutist several times shows a big
>guy sitflying (white suit, white rig I think). I've posted here before that
>his rig would *certainly* come off him in a premature deployment.
Is this the same guy that's in the Mirage ad of this months
Parachutist (p 14)? That does look scary!
W
--
=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
Wendy Faulkner Don't knock on Death's door.
faul...@eco.utexas.edu Ring the bell and run away.
http://www.eco.utexas.edu/~faulkner He hates that.
squirts_the_ejac...@hotmail.com
>
>
> Sound of doorbell... Thank the Gods! Come in!
>
> I knew one of my skydiving buddies would help me in this time of distress
>
> OH MY GOD!! Oh No..Oh No..IT'S BRUCE!
Lesson of the day: use liberal amounts of anal-eaze before attempting
to "back-out" of your rig, just in case.
JimBo
>From: sb...@aol.com (Sboz0)
>OH MY GOD!! Oh No..Oh No..IT'S BRUCE!
>
>(to be continued after a cigarette.)
>
Everybody knows I dont smoke.
jim
D-10154
Done a jump or two
Man small , why fall ? Skies call, thats all.
D16842
>>(to be continued after a cigarette.)
>>
>
>Everybody knows I dont smoke.
>
>
Till now, we didn't know you did the other either. :)
Tom B
Chewie
>
> On Safety Day a couple years ago I discussed this possibility with the group
> at our DZ. Nobody believed me, including one very good skydiver with
> thousands of jumps and over 25 years experience.
So, it looks like very few skydivers are aware of this risk
(falling backwards)...
> So I put my rig on with
> the main *in* the tray, got into a fast sit position and pulled my legstraps
> about a third of the way up my thighs. I then had someone grab the rig at
> the risers and yank upwards...it came off *very* easily. My rig is sized
> perfectly for me. IIRC, we did it with someone else too, just to show it
> wasn't specific to my container type.
and it is obviously a real risk...
> "Geronimo" <Gero...@ParachuteHistory.com> wrote
> >
> > Background Information
> >
> > On June 5, 1983 a jumper fell partially out of his rig. He was involved
> > in a crw wrap. After the cutaway, his foot momentarily hung up on the
> > other guy's canopy. He was upsidedown. He shook loose of the canopy and
> > that's when he fell out (backwards) of his harness. The leg straps were
> > caught around his knees. The horizontals were up under his arm pits. The
> > jumper pulled his reserve & fortunately landed safely in water.
however, there is no evidence that it actually happened. Maybe there
are a few others who fell partially out of their rigs, but it is very
unlikely that there were any fatality caused by this problem (i don't
know but i guess that Geronimo would :-).
On the other hand, there are several fatalities, for instance, from
jumpers falling frontwards. This is also easy to achieve when the chest
strap is not properly fastened, but every jumper knows about this risk.
Isn't there something strange there?
--
chewie [beer adjudicator]
TY
Geronimo wrote:
I tried this and I could get out. On top of that my harness is not
articulated and my container is not short. I jump big canopies and for this
experiment I didn't even take my main out because I didn't want to bother
repacking it. Admittedly it took a bit of fanagling and I did have to bring
my legs up and slide the leg straps down to above my knees but I eventually
managed to get out. I always knew I could squish out through the top
without undoing the chest strap (like sliding the rig down off my body) but
I never dreamed I could back out. This really surprised me.
Donna
Dave Miller
I read that and thought "I would do anything to keep that from happening".
You read it and thought "How can I make it easier". To each his own.
Dave Miller
CRWMike
JimBo
>Closet was getting a bit small for you, eh?
>
Now Mike, of all people not to spot a phoney. Go back and look at the address
of the original poster.....then close your eyes, and think TOM BIRDWELL and you
might be able to figure out who wrote that.
D16842
>Now Mike, of all people not to spot a phoney. Go back and look at the address
>of the original poster.....then close your eyes, and think TOM BIRDWELL and
>you
>might be able to figure out who wrote that.
Did someone call my name? What is the subject here? :)
Tom B
Dave Miller
>
> Lesson of the day: use liberal amounts of anal-eaze before attempting
> to "back-out" of your rig, just in case.
>
I read that and thought "I would do anything to keep that from happening".
Ann Poblenz
I seem to recall a case back in 96 (??) of a girl that fell backwards
out of her rig....anyone?????
Jan Meyer
> I seem to recall a case back in 96 (??) of a girl that fell backwards
> out of her rig....anyone?????
There was a SUICIDE falling out at Cal City on 12/30/95. A SL FJ student
had a normal opening. Sometime between opening ~2500 ft & 1000 ft, she
removed her helmet & radios and undid the chest strap & a leg strap. She
fell to her death.
--
Jan Meyer D-07833
http://FixMyPages.com
http://www.ParachuteHistory.com
http://www.MakeItHappen.com
http://www.DiveMaker.com
mailto:Aeroso...@MakeItHappen.com
Terry
strap that are shown in the article I've got one all ready for your
next sit fly jump.:) 24 flat reserve (crossbow reserve is available),
competition ParaCommander in Merry Widow color scheme, last repack
about 1996 (student rigger), last jumped about 1989. Last hope rope
is installed. Rig weight about 50lbs
Just kidding, I'd never get of my first rig.
Bill
bill
Jan Meyer <Aeroso...@MakeItHappen.com> wrote in message
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