Becky
DZ SCUBIE
>I feel your pain ronda. I understand the stupidity of law enforcement
>compoundedf by lawyers and then judges on top of it all.
Hey Nuttman don't lay the title of stupid on all law enforcement. To be honest
there are bad cops just like innocent people. To be honest in the last 30
years I have never arrested anyone who did not scream their innocence at the
top of their lungs...even when caught in the act. It seems most people refuse
to take responsibility for their actions and their friends and family jump on
that band wagon as well. I'm not saying it dosen't happen ... BUT ... I also
know that that more often then not family and friends can't believe someone
they know could do "anything wrong". Just human nature I guess.
>Where will their egos
>and stupidity end??
When people stop doing what they want reguardless of if it is against the law
or not. We can't pick or choose what laws we abide by or not. This do what
you want and to hell with everyone else because that is what I want to do
attitude can only tear the country apart not pull it togeather.
>TO PROTECT AND SERVE.
>
Thats right, I'v done this for 30 years and will continue to do so. Even in
the face of micro inspection from people who make spot evaluations of
complicated situations without acess to all details and information.
Ok rant mode off.
Blues,
Sean
aka "The Fed"
Peanut4040
In case anybody ever needs a good lawyer in quincy,-- after enormous dollars
wasted in the area of lawyer employment.
I FINALLY FOUND A "GOOD" ONE.
Tandmterry
>FUCK THE PIGS
>FUCK THE JUDGES
>AND MOST FUCK THE LAWYERS WITH KINKY SEX
Be honest now Peanut...how do you really feel???
Terry
Ofiddle
OH MAN!! Now that is an oxymoron!....or is that a mory oxon?
Tandmterry
Rhonda Lea Kirk
"DZ SCUBIE" <dzsc...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:20030110094951...@mb-me.aol.com...
> Hey Nuttman don't lay the title of stupid on all law
enforcement. To be honest
> there are bad cops just like innocent people. To be
honest in the last 30
> years I have never arrested anyone who did not scream
their innocence at the
> top of their lungs...even when caught in the act. It
seems most people refuse
> to take responsibility for their actions and their friends
and family jump on
Sean, I know you're generalizing, but I'm taking it
personally, given that you put it in this thread. The facts,
in this situation, are undisputed. We know exactly what
Becky did and did not do.
What is disputed is the report of certain other non-facts by
the cop who wouldn't let her call for an attorney when she
asked for one, wouldn't let my mother (the victim, who
brought her in for questioning) see her, uncrossed Becky's
legs while she sat in the chair and then kept his hand on
her thigh while telling her to "relax", and then, after
deciding to arrest Becky, made snide comments about my
mother that my mother could hear through the door ("is there
a back way out? her grandmother might shoot us if we go out
that way"). And then some.
Maybe there are some good cops. Maybe you're one.
But I've known, up close and personal, some of the smarmiest
creatures you'd ever want to meet...and they were cops. At
the time, I wasn't too discerning, and I called them
friends. They were dirtbags. Never did anything to me but
drink my coffee, but I heard a lot of stories. Nothing but
dirtbags.
These days if I saw one drowning, I would spit on him.
rl
Unclbennie
>or later, they abuse their right to protect,, at the expense of somebody
NOt posted,
Peanut, shut the fuck up, you have no idea what you are talking about. Not all
cops abuse their right to protect. Just like any segment of society, there are
good and bad, you can't cast the same light on all of them.
Karen
Livendive
> >and stupidity end??
>
> When people stop doing what they want reguardless of if it is against the
law
> or not. We can't pick or choose what laws we abide by or not. This do
what
> you want and to hell with everyone else because that is what I want to do
> attitude can only tear the country apart not pull it togeather.
So what laws were these folks breaking?
http://www.wkrn.com/Global/story.asp?S=1076500&nav=1ugFDGSN (the video of
the stop is included).
Blues,
Dave
Peanut4040
>know that that more often then not family and friends can't believe someone
>they know could do "anything wrong".
You probably right sean,, and I SHOULD not say they all freaking bad-- Until
its happened to you, you think they all the good guys.. grin,,yeah, right..
Perhaps you have never seen force used badly, like for instance this morning
on the news--That family stoppd in tenn, drug out of their car,, and their
family dog shot while they were handcuffed on the ground. Tfhe dog was
wagging his tail, when he came out of the car.
Sfhore,,, the fine governor of Tennessee called them to aplogise for the
unfortunate Mistake made by his state troopers... A lot of good that does...
It happens. You give a man a gun, a badge and stick, pepper spray--and sooner
or later, they abuse their right to protect,, at the expense of somebody like
me. Then, at 46 years old, middle age, middle class,,, i have no use for
them.--
CUT THEIR BUDGET
JimBo
>From: unclb...@aol.comnospam (Unclbennie)
>
>NOt posted,
>Peanut, shut the fuck up,
OOPS !
jim
D-10154
All around nice guy.
Man small... why fall ? Skies call... thats all.
Peanut4040
kallend
Illinois now has 17 people who have been released from Death Row on the
basis of innocence. In every case the cops and prosecutors swore up and
down that they were guilty.
Rhonda Lea Kirk
"kallend" <kal...@iit.edu> wrote
> Illinois now has 17 people who have been released from
Death Row on the
> basis of innocence. In every case the cops and
prosecutors swore up and
> down that they were guilty.
In Becky's case
1. the sentence was 270 days.
2. the minimum she would be expected to serve is 162 days.
3. the minimum time to be served before becoming eligible
for a parole hearing is 90 days (after which, it takes
another 60 to be released).
In spite of the above, a parole officer has been to see her.
She should be out by the end of February, according to him.
The baliff who removed her from the courtroom said, in the
presence of many, that the judge should have dismissed the
whole thing.
The prosecutor was obviously stunned by the judge's decision
to make her serve the time, even though it was his plea
offer.
The jail guards are immeasurably kind to her. When her
glasses broke, I was allowed to take them out, have them
repaired and bring them back. This is against policy, and it
was offered to me without prompting.
The judge who sentenced her was a family court judge, not a
criminal judge, who had been on the bench for about a year.
(He's known for having represented the family of Karen Ann
Quinlan when they sued to have her removed from life
support.)
The cop who arrested her is still posturing and has failed
to release my AOL account even though he was told to do so
by the prosecutor (who said to my mother, "I don't know why
he froze the account in the first place." And, in fact,
there was nothing--zip, zilch, nit, nil and bobkus--on the
computer that would have been evidence. I would know. I have
looked.)
Some of it is relevant to the point. The rest is just
because I'm pissed off. Make of it what you will.
rl
travis...@mail.boisestate.edu
> Hey Nuttman don't lay the title of stupid on all law enforcement. To be honest
> there are bad cops just like innocent people.
Look up our "shootings" records, Boise, ID.
Hard to not be biased.
-shane
travis...@mail.boisestate.edu
> So what laws were these folks breaking?
> http://www.wkrn.com/Global/story.asp?S=1076500&nav=1ugFDGSN (the video of
> the stop is included).
Good link. Dont that shit piss ya off?
If an eye for an eye dont make you feel better, keep going.
-shane
ynotssor
It seems there's an important cultural change underway ... or maybe we're just
hearing more about it, since the US Justice Department doesn't require such
statistics of police departments:
http://abcnews.go.com/sections/us/DailyNews/shootings000927.html
As Sean intimates, there're assholes in every walk of life imaginable; there are also
good people.
Locally here we had a small-town city cop who was such as brutish asshole that when
he died of pancreatic cancer that hit him in about 6 months' time, there was a minor
celebration. He would antagonize people he was dealing with for traffic stops or whatever,
in the hopes that he could provoke them to take some sort of angry action that would
justify his using a gun on them.
We also had a cop who slipped on the ice on someone's front porch and broke his hip
while notifying them that their lost dog had been found. He died in the hospital 2 days
later from a resultant blood clot that broke loose and traveled to his brain.
He was one of the nicest, most caring individuals I have ever met in my entire life, and
the world is a lesser place for his absence. He would go out of his way to help you, even
in his official capacity. He was an eager audience for stories of my skydiving travels and
always left me feeling like I was somebody special.
I found that everyone felt that same way about him.
tony
--
use hotmail.com for any email replies
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Rhonda Lea Kirk
Beck so far. She's enjoying the mail more than you can
imagine. (Even yours, o boring one. :))
For anyone else who is willing to write, the address
is:
Rebecca K. Lacey 1A
Somerset County Jail
40 Grove Street
Somerville, NJ 08876
And again, thank you.
rl
Matt Savoir
weekend. At a certain DZ in Florida some jumpers said that the biggest
thing in skydiving this year will be when the Colombians get out of
prison in 10 months. What's up with that? Sounds kind of cryptic.
Rhonda Lea Kirk
"Matt Savoir" <trashc...@lycos.com> wrote in message
> weekend. At a certain DZ in Florida some jumpers said
that the biggest
> thing in skydiving this year will be when the Colombians
get out of
> prison in 10 months. What's up with that? Sounds kind of
cryptic.
rotflmao!
Oh yes, indeed! ;)
Jldorman5486
tony
You seem to be a good person with a good heart, Tony. I'm sorry to hear about
your friend. He sounds like he was a wonderful person.
Lana
DZ SCUBIE
>So what laws were these folks breaking?
>http://www.wkrn.com/Global/story.asp?S=1076500&nav=1ugFDGSN (the video of
>the stop is included).
I'll tell you Dave, I don't know if they broke a law or not. I do know that
the officers were advised that the car was involved in a robbery. They made a
traffic stop. Dave most of the time thats all a police officer has on a
dispatch nothing else, thats why they make a traffic stop to find out what
really is the story. You make your decisions on what is happening and your try
to protect everyone, thats why they handcuff suspects because we don't know if
they are criminals or not and then we ask questions. We don't determin guilt
(I know, I know many will say that cops do, and yes some unprofessional do take
the law in their own hands, and most of us professional officers don't) we
leave that to the courts. Are we wrong? sure. Are we always wrong, No. If
we had all the answers before a stop that hindsight gives us we would love it ,
but thats not possible. For every example of a bad decission a cop makes I
can give you a dozen where a cop makes a good one. I can also show you a huge
amount of incidents where a "innocent" lied, and hurt a cop.
I don't like generalities.
Sean
aka "The Fed"
Ofiddle
>From: travis...@mail.boisestate.edu
>Date: 1/13/03 3:57 PM Eastern Standard Time
>Message-id: <3e232...@hpb10302.boi.hp.com>
What is really sad, is that it pisses off the GOOD cops as much or MORE than it
pisses us off. There are BUNCHES of good cops out there, and I gotta tell ya,
when the Quincy Cops were making A$$es out of themselves in 2001 at the WFFC,
bunches of really good SKYDIVING Cops came to our rescue. They haven't left us
high and dry and we shouldn't paint them with the same brush either.
David Ferree
not too long ago (maybe a year?) when I lambasted lawyers, law
enforcement, judges, and the entire system in general. Mostly I got
defenders (yes, even you, Rhonda) of all of the above.
But I don't want to rant today. Actually I did then deleted several
paragraphs. You never know how your luck might change if you complain
too much, you know?
David
Tom B
I work in Cincinnati, a city where the police are under siege, and accused
of 13 racist murders during the 90's. When one looks at the accusations with
a little more depth, one shooting was extremely unfortunate, where a wanted
teen ran from police. It became a lone foot pursuit in the dark, and in the
end the unarmed teen was mistakenly shot, after being seen reaching inside
his jacket and turning. The human reality is that we make fast but too often
poor decisions when our bodies are filled with adrenaline, like that when
chasing a wanted person through the dark, alone, and more than a little
frightened and alerted. Poor police decisions, at least when viewed from
the comfortable safety of a chair the next day. That officer's life is in
many respects ruined. He will have to live with that decision forever
personally, and he is just about unemployable, as he is protested everywhere
he goes.
The rest of the 13 "police murders" are more like the following. A man came
up behind a female officer working alone. Somehow he caught her off guard,
took her firearm from her holster, and shot her twice from behind. He then
stuffed her patrol car and drove away with her. Despite major life
threatening wounds, she regained consciousness, drew her backup weapon and
shot him. Fortunately for society, he died on the spot. I am serious, that
is one of the listed 13 racist murders by Cincinnati police officers. 10 of
the remaining 11 "murders" involve exchange of gunfire with illegally armed
suspects, after pursuit, with all of the individuals having extended
criminal records. During the 7 months after the Cincinnati riots, there were
over 100 black on black murders, yet the perceived problem in Cincinnati is
dirty racist cops.
Despite the claimed "clear pattern of police murder", if you look at the
data, Cincinnati officers draw and fire their weapons far less than most
large cities, with a lower ratio of fatalities due to police actions.
Blaming the police is a very easy trap to fall into, at least here. In my
local small community, we pay the police little, and expect a great deal
from them. Despite that they do a pretty good job.
In the Richmond Boogie, we annually have 1000 or so skydivers, and their
activities, and have never had a significant event involving the police,
beyond DUI, and that is clearly not the fault of the police.
Joel, get a grip.
Tom Birdwell
Rhonda Lea Kirk
"David Ferree" <david...@aol.com> wrote in message
> Where is the honorable Joseph Walther when we need him? I
remember
> not too long ago (maybe a year?) when I lambasted lawyers,
law
> enforcement, judges, and the entire system in general.
Mostly I got
> defenders (yes, even you, Rhonda) of all of the above.
First there was Frank Gambalie. Then there was my former
boss. Finally, there was my daughter.
And that was enough for me.
rl
P.S. to David:
> But I don't want to rant today. Actually I did then
deleted several
You shouldn't be ranting, you should be working on your
assignment. :)
Peanut4040
>These days if I saw one drowning, I would spit on him.
>
>rl
>
sean,,, well, you have seen one side.,, others have seen another side of law
enforcement.
Retire,,, get your pension,,, and dont look back --
DONT ever look back.
and nomater what happens,, when im 50-60-70--- i'll still call you "friend"
Peanut4040
>Illinois now has 17 people who have been released from Death Row on the
>basis of innocence. In every case the cops and prosecutors swore up and
>down that they were guilty.
>
>
laughing,, well i shore as LLL aint gonna say IM INNONCENT.-- OR i was robbed
in that state.
Livendive
it's at least a betrayal of the communities trust, and sometimes involves
their guns. When I make a mistake at work, someone usually catches it, and
we fix it. In this particular incident, there's no fixing it. A guy left
his wallet on top of his car when he stopped for gas. Some woman saw money
flying off his car and called 911. How that turned into a robbery, I have
no idea. The police followed until they had backup, then pulled him over.
A late model station wagon, with two middle-aged adults, their teenage son,
and their two dogs...not what you'd "expect" to see in a robbery situation.
Still, the driver complies as best he can with orders, as do his wife and
kid, despite the fact they have no idea what this is about. Each of them
repeatedly asked the officers to shut the car doors so their dogs wouldn't
get out on the side of the freeway. Officers walked up each side of the
car, shining flashlights inside, till they reached the open doors, but
neither of them closed those doors despite the fact they had to have seen
the dogs. Then one dog, apparently used to playing with flashlight beams
with the boy, jumps out tail wagging like crazy, VERY clearly communicating
"woohoo...it's play time!! yippee". When he approaches one of the
officers, tail still wagging, ears normal, hair not raised, that officer
shot him in the head with a shotgun. Sure, it was "just a dog.", but I tell
you what, nobody who is willing to kill without a CLEAR threat to their life
deserves to wear that uniform...or carry a gun for that matter. The
screening process should have eliminated this guy in the first place, just
like it ought to eliminate those who would shoot a non-suspect who was
pulling out his wallet, and those who will use their authority to obtain
sexual favors, or drugs, or many other abuses of power. Addditionally, it's
my firmly-held opinion that when a cop does abuse his power, the punishment
should be considerably more severe than when a average citizen breaks the
law. Unfortunately, the opposite is generally the case. In any case, my
experience suggests that the ratio of bad cops to good cops is somewhat
higher than one per dozen you mention.
Here's a question for you. If a cop approaches me for some reason, and I
make threatening moves and he shoots me, that's acceptable...he was just
protecting himself, right? But when that cop approaches me and draws a gun
(a threatening move if I've ever seen one) and I KNOW I've done nothing
wrong, but I also don't know whether this is one of those good cops or one
of the bad ones, if I shoot him while "protecting myself", I'll be up sh*t
creek without a paddle. Now tell me: What ethical
filter/qualifications/moral integrity demonstration has the average police
officer passed that I have not? Why is it ok for him to defend himself from
me, presumably a law-abiding citizen, but not for me to defend myself from
him, presumably a law-abiding citizen. What good reason is there for me to
give him the benefit of the doubt, but not vice versa?
Blues,
Dave
"DZ SCUBIE" <dzsc...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:20030113191610...@mb-fj.aol.com...
Peanut4040
>weekend. At a certain DZ in Florida some jumpers said that the biggest
>thing in skydiving this year will be when the Colombians get out of
>prison in 10 months. What's up with that? Sounds kind of cryptic.
giggle,,, welll,, shucks sean,, I personally dont know NOTHINGGGGGGG
Peanut4040
>cryptic.
>
>rotflmao!
>
>Oh yes, indeed! ;)
>
LLLL RONDAY,, we mess well have fun with this one,, wink-- and iffin we play
it right we may even get de pig in with us too,,, yew in Sean?
Unclbennie
>In the Richmond Boogie, we annually have 1000 or so skydivers, and their
>activities, and have never had a significant event involving the police,
>beyond DUI, and that is clearly not the fault of the police.
>
>Joel, get a grip.
>
>Tom Birdwell
>
>
A couple of years ago I came to the Richmond Boogie, a couple of police
officers were standing around watching people land. As I came off the landing
field they asked me if I had a good jump, chatted for a minute and told me to
enjoy the rest of my stay. That has been how most of my interactions with the
police have been. I did have a female police officer draw her weapon on me on
a routine traffic stop. She said I rolled a stop sign, I reached into my back
pocket for my wallet, she pulled her weapon, we worked it out. I can't say I
blamed her, I didn't tell her what I was doing, I could have been reaching for
a weapon. I don't hold it agains all cops, so as you said get a grip Joel, and
I'll add Rhonda. I really hope you wouldn't spit on a drowning fellow human
Rhonda.
How would you feel if the group being dissed were nurses, paramedics,
firefighters, gardeners, skydivers, etc. Good and bad in all walks.
Blue Skies
Karen
Peanut4040
>Where is the honorable Joseph Walther when we need him? I remember
>not too long ago (maybe a year?) when I lambasted lawyers, law
>enforcement, judges, and the entire system in general.
At 46, middle age, middle class,, thats what makes me cry. The "system"..
How did we go so wrong? How will our kids correct our errors? Gawd, i hope
they get more education than we did-- i hope, they do less acid,estacy, and
othe strong drugs,,,, outlaw "alchol" and make marijuana legal.
walk off your drop zone.
Tom B
kallend wrote in message <3E2316DF...@iit.edu>...
>Illinois now has 17 people who have been released from Death Row on the
>basis of innocence. In every case the cops and prosecutors swore up and
>down that they were guilty.
Oh really John? Did the police swear they were guilty, or did they answer
questions of factual nature, that gave credence to a prosecutor's claim and
a jury's belief of guilt. Unless the policeman was a first hand witness, he
would not be allowed to testify of a defendant's "guilt", only of the
factual evidence he had knowledge of.
You guys just cut 4 men loose from Death Row to freedom. Want to make a bet
on their chances of making even one year without new criminal charges? 5
years?
Tom B
Peanut4040
>First there was Frank Gambalie. Then there was my former
>boss. Finally, there was my daughter.
>
>And that was enough for me.
>
>rl
>
Smile,,, hey purty lady...
Yew ought tew come party with me and Lucky on de farm sometime.. Can you
handle hip waders and wading a beaver infested swamp? Fireplace on the back
porch, a six pack of pabst blue ribbon, a fifth of curevo? and a snake named
elvis?
LLL i aint promising a arose garden woman. IFFIN you want a rose garden call
SNUFFY
Peanut4040
>What is really sad, is that it pisses off the GOOD cops as much or MORE than
>it
>pisses us off. There are BUNCHES of good cops out there, and I gotta tell ya,
>when the Quincy Cops were making A$$es out of themselves in 2001 at the WFFC,
>bunches of really good SKYDIVING Cops came to our rescue. They haven't left
>us
>high and dry and we shouldn't paint them with the same brush either.
>
>
YES,,, tear,, yes,,,my friend fiddle you are so right.-- there are good cops
out there, but unfortunately,, they have a very bad occupationaly hazzard type
of living life. Their lifestyle takes it toll on them... thats why they retire
early..
Peanut4040
>I'll tell you Dave, I don't know if they broke a law or not. I do know that
>the officers were advised that the car was involved in a robbery. They made
>a
>traffic stop. Dave most of the time thats all a police officer has on a
>dispatch nothing else, thats why they make a traffic stop to find out what
>really is the story. You make your decisions on what is happening and your
>try
>to protect everyone, thats why they handcuff suspects because we don't know
>if
>they are criminals or not and then we ask questions. We don't determin guilt
>(I know, I know many will say that cops do, and yes some unprofessional do
>take
>the law in their own hands, and most of us professional officers don't) we
>leave that to the courts. Are we wrong? sure. Are we always wrong, No.
>If
>we had all the answers before a stop that hindsight gives us we would love it
>,
> but thats not possible. For every example of a bad decission a cop makes I
>can give you a dozen where a cop makes a good one. I can also show you a
>huge
>amount of incidents where a "innocent" lied, and hurt a cop.
>
>I don't like generalities.
>
>Sean
>aka "The Fed"
>
and thats why i call you my friend.
YEW STILLA JACKASS PIG
Peanut4040
>Joel, get a grip.
>
>Tom Birdwell
>
Your'e right,, my bad,, i NEED too.
i will try harder. when things are bad. I aint no quitter.
Rhonda Lea Kirk
"Unclbennie" wrote
> I'll add Rhonda. I really hope you wouldn't spit on a
drowning fellow human
Not on a drowning fellow human, no. But I consider
Doyle-the-pet-rat to be more human than some homo sapiens I
know.
Consider Gacy, consider Bundy, consider Dahmer (and the cops
who gave the kid back to him). Consider the middle-aged cop
who had his hand on my daughter's thigh while he questioned
her.
Nope. I don't accord human status to everyone.
> How would you feel if the group being dissed were nurses,
paramedics,
> firefighters, gardeners, skydivers, etc. Good and bad in
all walks.
At this point, there are a few people in the criminal
justice system who I know personally to be good people. As a
group, I think it draws a certain element, just as certain
other groups do. I don't like the element.
So, yes, I am, as someone I once knew said, post-judiced. I
worked in the legal community for almost 20 years. Sometimes
it takes something really personal to wake me up. A lot of
things have happened in the past few years that should have
roused me. But they didn't. I wasn't paying attention. But
after Becky (and one more thing even more recently), it fell
into place.
As horrible as it sounds, and I grant you it sounds
horrible, I stand by what I said.
rl
Peanut4040
>I'll add Rhonda. I really hope you wouldn't spit on a drowning fellow human
>Rhonda.
grin,,, i'm trying hard to get a grip,, warm smile,,
BUT dotn count on it.
Peanut4040
>on their chances of making even one year without new criminal charges? 5
>years?
we are both old tom,
Want to make a bet they will live 5 years after their release?
Want to make a bet, charges will be pressed on their deaths?
Its our scrwed up judicial system, beter or worse, democracy as fucked up as it
is, is still
THE FUCKING BEST SYSTEM IN THE WORLD.
screw the republicans
Ofiddle
catholic school, where all of the teachers were overworked and underpaid. Most
of the teachers were wonderful people who were there because it was their
life's passion to teach. However one of the teachers was a real b&(*) and
everyone, parents, other teachers, students, hated her. When she left for a
'better' job, someone passed a card, ALL of the teachers (about 25 of them)
gave her a little something. It totaled about thirty seven cents.....
Ofiddle
>Illinois now has 17 people who have been released from Death Row on the
>basis of innocence.
Understand that they were not released from prison, they are lifetime inmates,
and they were not released on the basis of innocence, but because George Ryan
is not convinced of guilt. There is a difference.
In every case the cops and prosecutors swore up and
>down that they were guilty.
And they may well be, George just doesn't think that through the process as it
currently stands, they were proven guilty. Unfortunately for the State of
Illinois, he did nothing to change or improve the process. And I have very
little hope that Blagoyavich will improve things either.
>
Rhonda Lea Kirk
"Ofiddle" <ofi...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:20030113213942...@mb-fp.aol.com...
> >
> >Illinois now has 17 people who have been released from
Death Row on the
> >basis of innocence.
>
> Understand that they were not released from prison, they
are lifetime inmates,
> and they were not released on the basis of innocence, but
because George Ryan
> is not convinced of guilt. There is a difference.
The governor granted a blanket commutation to 167 death row
inmates. He pardoned four more. Those four, plus thirteen
others were the people John is talking about.
http://www.illinoisdeathpenalty.com/ivict.html lists the
names of 13 of these men. Some were freed for lack of
evidence, others because of innocence. At least one helped
obtain the conviction of the real perpetrator.
You're right. There is a difference.
rl
Tom B
Ofiddle wrote in message <20030113212857...@mb-fp.aol.com>...
I didn't know you were a teacher Beth.
:p
Tom B
DZ SCUBIE
at a time Dave.
1. >The problem is when cops make mistakes,
>it's at least a betrayal of the communities trust, and sometimes involves
>their guns.
excuse me Dave but contrary to popular belief we (cops) are human and no matter
how much training, education or time on the street we get we will still be
human and subject to making mistakes. As for your statement that this is a
betrayal of the communities trust I don't see how being human is a betrayal.
We (cops) try to stay within the boundries set for us by society and the law.
I think the key word to look for is intent. Most of us intend to do the right
thing and most of us don't intend to make mistakes. Dave please tell me what
kind of job there is out there where people don't make mistakes?
>When I make a mistake at work, someone usually catches it, and
>we fix it.
Thats right Dave, someone usually catches it and you fix it. Tell me Dave
does your work entail not knowing what will happen from one minuet to the next,
facing unpredictable situations and having to make a decision in a fraction of
a second that many will have months or years to pick apart. Apples and oranges
to me.
>In this particular incident, there's no fixing it. A guy left
>his wallet on top of his car when he stopped for gas. Some woman saw money
>flying off his car and called 911. How that turned into a robbery, I have
>no idea.
Nether I'm sure do the cops. They are street officers. They recieved a call
via radio that told them this car was involved in a robbery. This is what they
were told and this is what they acted on... as any officer would. Kind of like
if you were to call the police and tell them someone is breaking into your
house at such and such address. They would respond and act on the information
you supplied. This is the same thing.
> The police followed until they had backup, then pulled him over.
Standard procedure for all police.
>A late model station wagon, with two middle-aged adults, their teenage son,
>and their two dogs...not what you'd "expect" to see in a robbery situation.
Dave its what you don't expect that will kill you. As for two middle-age
adults and a teenage son, well I have faced many husband/wife,
boyfriend/girlfriend middle aged couple that have tried to make my wife a very
wealth woman. Dave good people and bad people come in all shapes, sizes, races
and ages.
>Each of them
>repeatedly asked the officers to shut the car doors so their dogs wouldn't
>get out on the side of the freeway.
Dave you probable won't get the reasoning behind this but I'm going to try and
explain it. When you make a felony traffic stop and there is the possiability
of weapons.. remember the police were told this was a robbery. Your first
order of business is to try to control a dangerous situation. You do this by
securing the suspects, this is first and formost in your mind.. there will be
time to talk after the situation is under control.
> Officers walked up each side of the
>car, shining flashlights inside, till they reached the open doors, but
>neither of them closed those doors despite the fact they had to have seen
>the dogs.
Ok, the officers were probably (I don't know for sure, I was not there) but I
would be looking for other suspects hiding in the vehicle. Yes I would be
taking account of the dogs as many are trained to attack police. Yes, I have
encountered them at verious times.
>Then one dog, apparently used to playing with flashlight beams
>with the boy, jumps out tail wagging like crazy, VERY clearly communicating
>"woohoo...it's play time!! yippee".
First, how could the police know the dog was used to playing with flashlight
beams? second, how can you know that? I haven't read this in the reports I'v
read?
As for VERY clearly communicating its time to play, well dogs don't speak and
I'v seen dogs attack that looked like playing and seen dogs that play like
attacking, you tell me how in the dark on the side of the road the police can
tell the difference? Dave have you ever been attacked by a dog? I have,,, its
not fun and hurts like hell.
> tail still wagging, ears normal, hair not raised,
And this is supose to indicate what? That the dog is friendly? I'v seen a pit
bull tear into the arm of a officer while all the time his tail was wagging to
beat the band.
>Sure, it was "just a dog.", but I tell
>you what, nobody who is willing to kill without a CLEAR threat to their life
>deserves to wear that uniform...or carry a gun for that matter.
Dave .. what would you say was a CLEAR threat to their life??? the dog clamping
his jaws around the officers throat? again I ask, have you ever been attacked
by a dog or even bitten?
> The
>screening process should have eliminated this guy in the first place, just
>like it ought to eliminate those who would shoot a non-suspect who was
>pulling out his wallet,
uh huh, well tell me Dave how so? Officers make decisions in seconds that
people like you will talk and discuss over months. There is no way to screen
out for all situations. Again I say, we (police) are human and yes sometimes
we make mistakes. Now as for the wallet, without knowing the details of the
situation I can't answer that, and nether can you. The light at the time, the
location, the clothes the suspect was wearing, the attitude of the suspect the
type of wallet too all play a part in a situation. It it was low light, and we
were looking for a suspect involved in a shooting, he had baggy clothes and was
running away and refused to obey orders to stop, he turns fast and pulls out
his wallet which has metal on it like a concho that reflects light.. yes I
could see a possible shooting. What would you expect.. this is a sumation of
mistakes made by both the cop and the suspect.
>and those who will use their authority to obtain
>sexual favors, or drugs, or many other abuses of power.
Most professional police don't like those bad apples that do this anymore then
the general public.
>Addditionally, it's
>my firmly-held opinion that when a cop does abuse his power, the punishment
>should be considerably more severe than when a average citizen breaks the
>law.
Oh so we not only have to be perfect in your eyes but if we are human and make
a mistake we must suffer more than an average citizen. Your ideals are
unatainable for most humans.. no one is perfect and no one dosen't make
mistakes you would hold police to a unreasonalble statdard.
> my
>experience suggests that the ratio of bad cops to good cops is somewhat
>higher than one per dozen you mention.
>
Uh huh, Dave I base my evaluation on personal experience and 30 years as a Law
Enforcement Officer. You base yours on .... what?
>But when that cop approaches me and draws a gun
>(a threatening move if I've ever seen one) and I KNOW I've done nothing
>wrong, but I also don't know whether this is one of those good cops or one
>of the bad ones, if I shoot him
>while "protecting myself", I'll be up sh*t
>creek without a paddle.
Dave, lets be reasonable. Police officers don't just pull guns on people for
no reason, its just not done. He (the officer) would have to articulate why
he needed to draw down on you .. he would have to have a reason. You say you
know you haven't done anything wrong, but how is the officer to know that? You
may match the description of someone that just robbed a bank, or shot a 7-11
clerk or raped a woman. The officer was trying to control the situation and
prevent the situation from getting out of hand. Let me let you in on
something, bad guys don't give one rats ass about hurting innocent bystandards
so we have to try and take control of a situation befoe it goes bad because
when the bullets start flying they don't care who they hit. Remember, the
police are not mind readers.
>What ethical
>filter/qualifications/moral integrity demonstration has the average police
>officer passed that I have not?
I don't know Dave, what training have you had for intense life and death
situations? Have you attended classes on dealing with high threat situations?
I can't answer this question.
>Why is it ok for him to defend himself from
>me, presumably a law-abiding citizen, but not for me to defend myself from
>him, presumably a law-abiding citizen.
Dave if he pulled a gun on you then he would be issuing orders to raise your
hands, turn around (looking for weapons) and attempting to handcuff you to
prevent agressive acts. Again, if he drew down on you he had to have some
reason.
>What good reason is there for me to
>give him the benefit of the doubt, but not vice versa?
>
Because Dave, crooks don't wear a uniform or are a special color or a certin
age. All we can go on is training, and experience and comon sense.
Blues,
Sean
aka "The Fed"
DZ SCUBIE
>enforcement.
>Retire,,, get your pension,,, and dont look back --
I can't Nuttman, I believe in what I do, I go to work and keep shoveling to
try and protect those who pay me to. I try and enforce the laws of this land
that are passed by those we elect to make those laws. And I have spilled my
blood for what I believe. Without law there is anarchy, I have spent my time
in Internal Affairs and I have put a few bad cops away. I have also dismissed
many false accusations against good cops made by people who wanted to "get back
and that som-bitch who gave me that ticket". No, I can't quit .. not yet.
there is still too much for me to do.
And also no matter what happens,, I'll still call you friend also.
blue skies brother
Sean
aka "The Fed"
DZ SCUBIE
Sean
aka "The Fed"
>
DZ SCUBIE
Sean
aka "The Fed"
Rhonda Lea Kirk
> I don't normally like to top post but I will have to
address your points a one
> at a time Dave.
Sean,
You're trying to defend the indefensible. And you're doing
much the same thing as you would like me not to do: paint
with a broad brush.
Cops have power, more power than the average man. And so,
their responsibility is to use that power very carefully.
But power corrupts. People with power tend to run roughshod
over those who have none.
And it is a situation that is getting worse every day.
Just because you are a good guy, doesn't make the rest of
your brothers in uniform (or not, as the case may be) good
guys.
rl
Rhonda Lea Kirk
"DZ SCUBIE" <dzsc...@aol.com> wrote
> I don't know Nutt, I don't think I would be welcome.
There you would be wrong. I've always liked you. And trusted
you. If you think hard enough, you'll remember.
But I also consider you to be an exception, not a rule.
rl
DZ SCUBIE
I guess your right Rhonda, it is indefensible. There will always be good
people and bad people and they will be in all walks of life.
>Cops have power, more power than the average man. And so,
>their responsibility is to use that power very carefully.
I agree 100%
>But power corrupts. People with power tend to run roughshod
>over those who have none.
>
Maybe power does corrupt but I don't believe it always does. If it did our
society would never have survived. This is my belief Rhonda, not to be taken
as fact just my personal belief. I believe that right will always win out over
wrong.
>Just because you are a good guy, doesn't make the rest of
>your brothers in uniform (or not, as the case may be) good
>guys.
I agree, and I never ment to say that all cops are good guys. I just don't
want all cops to wear the bad cop image. Don't blame the the whole tree for
one bad apple.
Sean
aka "The Fed"
DZ SCUBIE
>you. If you think hard enough, you'll remember.
>
See Dave, I'm human and make mistakes. Thanks Rhonda.
Sean
aka "The Fed"
LORD OF THE SKY
David Ferree <david...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:acb62vclea4up1ads...@4ax.com...
>You never know how your luck might change if you complain
> too much, you know?
I wouldn't know anything about that !
JimBo
>From: dzsc...@aol.com (DZ SCUBIE)
>I guess your right Rhonda, it is indefensible. There will always be good
>people and bad people
and those that will beat all the fluid out of a dead horse.
jim
D-10154
All around nice guy.
Man small... why fall ? Skies call... thats all.
Rhonda Lea Kirk
"JimBo" <sb...@aol.comnooospam> wrote
> >Subject: Re: Becky
> >From: dzsc...@aol.com (DZ SCUBIE)
>
> >I guess your right Rhonda, it is indefensible. There
will always be good
> >people and bad people
>
> and those that will beat all the fluid out of a dead
horse.
Well, Jim, here's what we're gonna do. We're gonna take all
that "fluid" and we're going to put it in a special weight
vest.
Maybe then you'll stop floating, eh?
Love,
rl
ynotssor
[...]
> and nomater what happens,, when im 50-60-70--- i'll still call you "friend"
It's usually the wimmenfolk that brag about their measurements ...
--
use hotmail.com for any email replies
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Rhonda Lea Kirk
"ynotssor" <"ynotssor"> wrote
> [...]
> > and nomater what happens,, when im 50-60-70--- i'll
still call you "friend"
>
> It's usually the wimmenfolk that brag about their
measurements ...
Cheap bait. Cheap, cheap bait. I expect better from you,
Tony.
But if I had a nickel for every guy who ever wanted to tell
me the size of his...
Never mind.
rl
JimBo
>From: "Rhonda Lea Kirk" rhonda...@worldnet.att.net
>> and those that will beat all the fluid out of a dead
>horse.
>
>Well, Jim, here's what we're gonna do. We're gonna take all
>that "fluid" and we're going to put it in a special weight
>vest.
>Maybe then you'll stop floating, eh?
Jimbo dont float.
David Ferree
>screw the republicans
That's my choice. I usually find democrats too stupid to carry on a
conversation with long enough to be able to screw them.
David
JimBo
>From: "ynotssor" "ynotssor"
> and nomater what happens,, when im 50-60-70--- i'll still call you "friend"
>It's usually the wimmenfolk that brag about their measurements ...
Go out on the street and take measurements of a fireplug...they will match Pnut
almost exactly.
David Ferree
And the cow jumped over the moon.
Come to think of it, he did get pretty high.
David
michael ware
TURD POND about 1/2 mile from the DZ from THE REAL
DZ?????????????????????????
Rhonda Lea Kirk
"michael ware" <mww...@grandecom.net> wrote in message
news:v275lh1...@corp.supernews.com...
Actually...
...no. But thanks for your concern.
rl
P.S. I think you need a new keyboard.
john
"broken". The police commander (Burge) in the district where many of the
arrests were made has been suspended for condoning and maybe encouraging
systematic torture of suspects to obtain confessions. I didn't pardon
anyone, our Republican governor did. Since Illinois has put innocent
men in criminal training camps for years, maybe some of them will end up
behind bars again. However, that has not been the case with the 13
exonerated prior to yesterday.
Tom B wrote:
>
> kallend wrote in message <3E2316DF...@iit.edu>...
> >Illinois now has 17 people who have been released from Death Row on the
> >basis of innocence. In every case the cops and prosecutors swore up and
> >down that they were guilty.
>
> Oh really John? Did the police swear they were guilty, or did they answer
> questions of factual nature, that gave credence to a prosecutor's claim and
> a jury's belief of guilt. Unless the policeman was a first hand witness, he
> would not be allowed to testify of a defendant's "guilt", only of the
> factual evidence he had knowledge of.
>
> You guys just cut 4 men loose from Death Row to freedom. Want to make a bet
> on their chances of making even one year without new criminal charges? 5
> years?
>
> Tom B
CRWMike
apples' in your opinion? Use any definition you believe to be fair.
Michael
"DZ SCUBIE" <dzsc...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:20030113230058...@mb-fd.aol.com...
john
Ofiddle wrote:
>
> >
> >Illinois now has 17 people who have been released from Death Row on the
> >basis of innocence.
>
> Understand that they were not released from prison, they are lifetime inmates,
> and they were not released on the basis of innocence, but because George Ryan
> is not convinced of guilt. There is a difference.
Negative. 17 have now been released on the grounds of innocence. 163 (or
so) have been commuted but remain imprisoned for life.
>
> In every case the cops and prosecutors swore up and
> >down that they were guilty.
>
> And they may well be,
Not the 17 who were released.
>George just doesn't think that through the process as it
> currently stands, they were proven guilty. Unfortunately for the State of
> Illinois, he did nothing to change or improve the process.
Yes he did - he imposed a moratorium and asked the legislature to act.
They didn't.
Only the legislature can change the law.
>And I have very
> little hope that Blagoyavich will improve things either.
And the sad thing is that some other states have even worse systems but
refuse to investigate.
> >
Lee
"David Ferree" <david...@aol.com> wrote in message news:8h472vo5taethfgkg...@4ax.com...
Gee, thanks Dave.
michael ware
around" Brown '''''''trout"" fisher???
LORD OF THE SKY
> I'll tell you Dave, I don't know if they broke a law or not. I do know
that
> the officers were advised that the car was involved in a robbery. They
made a
> traffic stop.
Let me tell you a story Sean.
My story.
See ,I left my parents house when I was sixteen. I didn't like it
there much.
I got a daytime job pumping out septic tanks, an evening job flipping
burgers, and another job roofing during the day on the weekends.
The thing is that I didn't have transportation at the time and I did
an awful lot of walking.
Generally I could catch the Greyhound bus in the morning from Smyrna
to Marietta to pump shit, but there was no bus home early in the morning and
just as often I would have to walk the thirteen miles from the burger
flippen job back to my apartment in Smyrna.
I can't tell you how many times I was stopped, as I was walking late
at night (2 AM)in my burger flippin' red and white vertical striped shirt,
by the Smyrna or the CobbCounty police.
Like this was the getaway suit du-jour? A red and white stripped shirt?
Yeah, I was breakin no law,but the cops thought they could just stop me from
engaging in my pedestrian activities because they were the cops and they
were fuckin bored.
I didn't have equal firearms on my person so they always had the upper
hand.
I was just walking down the road and these bastards want to stop me and
ask me all kinds of questions!
Stupid shit like what is my name , where am I coming from and why am I
out so late.
Dipshit .... Did You notice the hamburger jockey attire?
What were they census takers,Sean?"
I didn't have time to waste .
Every minute these bastards fucked with me was a minute I wasn't
sleeping and I had a different job to show up for in the morning.
I have no doubt that you are a good cop Sean. I have no doubt that
the vast majority are good cops.
I know that sometimes the cops don't use common sense . I also have
no doubt that there are very bad cops. As a matter of fact I have some
stories about them as well!
The thing is Sean,
so many of my generation, even the good folks, have had so many bad
experiences with cops
who overstepped their authority, that quite frankly, We trust none of you.
And that is a shame.
Don "Treetop" Jardine
Dave most of the time thats all a police officer has on a
> dispatch nothing else, thats why they make a traffic stop to find out
what
> really is the story. You make your decisions on what is happening and
your try
> to protect everyone, thats why they handcuff suspects because we don't
know if
> they are criminals or not
michael ware
Joe Walther
"Rhonda Lea Kirk" <rhonda...@worldnet.att.net> wrote in message
news:trMU9.110228$hK4.8...@bgtnsc05-news.ops.worldnet.att.net...
Walther responds...
Any male who has a compelling need for this is one to avoid at all costs.
Besides, when it happens, just take the square root of whatever they tell
you and you will be closer to the truth.:-)
Regards
Walther
Peter Lucas
> Rhonda Lea Kirk wrote:
>> In Becky's case
>>
>> 1. the sentence was 270 days.
>> 2. the minimum she would be expected to serve is 162 days.
>> 3. the minimum time to be served before becoming eligible
>> for a parole hearing is 90 days (after which, it takes
>> another 60 to be released).
>>
>> In spite of the above, a parole officer has been to see her.
>> She should be out by the end of February, according to him.
>>
>> The baliff who removed her from the courtroom said, in the
>> presence of many, that the judge should have dismissed the
>> whole thing.
>>
>> The prosecutor was obviously stunned by the judge's decision
>> to make her serve the time, even though it was his plea
>> offer.
>>
>> The jail guards are immeasurably kind to her. When her
>> glasses broke, I was allowed to take them out, have them
>> repaired and bring them back. This is against policy, and it
>> was offered to me without prompting.
>>
>> The judge who sentenced her was a family court judge, not a
>> criminal judge, who had been on the bench for about a year.
>> (He's known for having represented the family of Karen Ann
>> Quinlan when they sued to have her removed from life
>> support.)
>>
>> The cop who arrested her is still posturing and has failed
>> to release my AOL account even though he was told to do so
>> by the prosecutor (who said to my mother, "I don't know why
>> he froze the account in the first place." And, in fact,
>> there was nothing--zip, zilch, nit, nil and bobkus--on the
>> computer that would have been evidence. I would know. I have
>> looked.)
>>
>> Some of it is relevant to the point. The rest is just
>> because I'm pissed off. Make of it what you will.
>>
>> rl
>
Sounds like a major fuck up as far as the courts were concerned. Does she
have any course of redress against the judge/court for sending her away? What
about against the cop? But I s'pose, being you, you'd have aready looked into
that ;-)
Well, if she's going to be in till the end of Feb, she should get my package
before she gets out :-)
Peter
Brisbane
Australia
PS...... 60 days after you're told you have parole before you get out??
Wouldn't want to be holding your breath now, would you??!!
Livendive
"DZ SCUBIE" <dzsc...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:20030113230058...@mb-fd.aol.com...
> >You're trying to defend the indefensible.
>
> I guess your right Rhonda, it is indefensible. There will always be good
> people and bad people and they will be in all walks of life.
>
> >Cops have power, more power than the average man. And so,
> >their responsibility is to use that power very carefully.
>
> I agree 100%
Then you at least partially agree with me. When I said I thought cops ought
to be punished more severely for breaking the law while in uniform, that was
what I was getting at. Some people push papers at work, some people flip
burgers. Other people get paid decently to get involved in some scary
situations and they are granted the power to take control of those
situations, whether they "deserve" that power or not. But their power has
to come with a price, and I believe that price should include a higher
standard of expectation. That's really all I was saying. I understand that
cops are human. I understand they will make mistakes. Mistakes and
breaking the law are two different critters altogether. Imagine an ER
doctor who misdiagnoses someone...say they've got a bullet wound in their
head and he sends them off to get a cast on their broken leg, and they die
in the process. That's a tragic mistake. The doctor who would make that
mistake shouldn't be a doctor, but I don't know that I'd consider him "scum
of the earth." Now if he spiked the IV of a female patient to keep her
unconscious while he had his way with her, that would be a different story.
Same with cops. A woman very close to me was raped by a cop. She never
pressed charges because he warned her of the consequences she would suffer.
Given the power he carried, she believed him. In our society, we have an
awful lot of scum. Generally speaking, that scum deserves more punishment
than they get. Any part of that scum who is also a) paid by their
communities to STOP the scum (rather than be part of it) and/or b) uses
their authority to prevent being found out, well those guys deserve even
more punishment.
The case in Tennessee is a simple example of the mistake side. Some
innocent people were pulled over and the cops did draw down on them with no
threat other than the misinformation on their radios (i.e. no apparent
risk). They then shot the family dog, in front of the family, while it was
very clear the dog was not attacking (and even if it had been, it wasn't
exactly a big fierce dog). The cop who shot that dog shouldn't be a cop
anymore. Plain and simple. If it had been my family, and my dog, the
results would have been more tragic, because there's no way I'd have
contained myself in the face of that kind of incompetence. I imagine he'd
have ended up shooting me too. And for what?
Yes, I've been attacked by dogs before, even one that looked and acted
friendly until he bit me. I still have a dog and am getting another one
next week. It's worth the risk to me. That cop has a job to do, and
sometimes that job entails taking a risk. If he's unwilling to take a risk,
then clearly the job is not worth it to him and he shouldn't be doing it.
Sean, you're in the military. Imagine a war situation. Now imagine a guy
who shot everyone who came within 10 feet of him because they *might be* the
enemy. Should that guy be a soldier? Nope. Are his fellow troops exposed
to more risk by not shooting everyone? Yep. Because that's what they get
paid for.
Blues,
Dave
Livendive
> I don't normally like to top post but I will have to address your points a
one
> at a time Dave.
>
> >it's at least a betrayal of the communities trust, and sometimes involves
> >their guns.
>
> excuse me Dave but contrary to popular belief we (cops) are human and no
matter
> how much training, education or time on the street we get we will still be
> human and subject to making mistakes. As for your statement that this is
a
> betrayal of the communities trust I don't see how being human is a
betrayal.
You're right. I said that incorrectly. I consider it pretty unfortunate
when a cop's mistake involves his guns, but the betrayal of the community
trust doesn't happen till he has intent, as you describe below.
> We (cops) try to stay within the boundries set for us by society and the
law.
> I think the key word to look for is intent. Most of us intend to do the
right
> thing and most of us don't intend to make mistakes. Dave please tell me
what
> kind of job there is out there where people don't make mistakes?
None.
> >When I make a mistake at work, someone usually catches it, and
> >we fix it.
>
> Thats right Dave, someone usually catches it and you fix it. Tell me
Dave
> does your work entail not knowing what will happen from one minuet to the
next,
> facing unpredictable situations and having to make a decision in a
fraction of
> a second that many will have months or years to pick apart. Apples and
oranges
> to me.
Actually, sometimes it does. Sometimes it involves finding someone else's
mistake under fairly dangerous conditions.
> >Each of them
> >repeatedly asked the officers to shut the car doors so their dogs
wouldn't
> >get out on the side of the freeway.
>
> Dave you probable won't get the reasoning behind this but I'm going to try
and
> explain it. When you make a felony traffic stop and there is the
possiability
> of weapons.. remember the police were told this was a robbery. Your first
> order of business is to try to control a dangerous situation. You do this
by
> securing the suspects, this is first and formost in your mind.. there
will be
> time to talk after the situation is under control.
This was after the people were restrained.
> > Officers walked up each side of the
> >car, shining flashlights inside, till they reached the open doors, but
> >neither of them closed those doors despite the fact they had to have seen
> >the dogs.
>
> Ok, the officers were probably (I don't know for sure, I was not there)
but I
> would be looking for other suspects hiding in the vehicle. Yes I would be
> taking account of the dogs as many are trained to attack police. Yes, I
have
> encountered them at verious times.
So why wouldn't you shut the car door? It was just as likely one would jump
out the drivers door and cause a pile-up on the freeway right next to you?
> First, how could the police know the dog was used to playing with
flashlight
> beams?
They couldn't.
> second, how can you know that? I haven't read this in the reports I'v
> read?
I've read it. Supposedly the kid played with his dog that way. It's really
neither here nor there though.
> As for VERY clearly communicating its time to play, well dogs don't speak
and
> I'v seen dogs attack that looked like playing and seen dogs that play like
> attacking, you tell me how in the dark on the side of the road the police
can
> tell the difference? Dave have you ever been attacked by a dog? I
have,,, its
> not fun and hurts like hell.
Yes I have, no it's not, and yes it does.
>
> > tail still wagging, ears normal, hair not raised,
>
> And this is supose to indicate what? That the dog is friendly? I'v seen
a pit
> bull tear into the arm of a officer while all the time his tail was
wagging to
> beat the band.
Is the proper response then to shoot every dog that approaches you? Somehow
I doubt you do this Sean.
> >Sure, it was "just a dog.", but I tell
> >you what, nobody who is willing to kill without a CLEAR threat to their
life
> >deserves to wear that uniform...or carry a gun for that matter.
>
> Dave .. what would you say was a CLEAR threat to their life??? the dog
clamping
> his jaws around the officers throat? again I ask, have you ever been
attacked
> by a dog or even bitten?
Yes I have. And every time a dog approaches me, it's theoretically possible
that it could jump up and clamp it's jaws into my throat. But I don't shoot
them. I don't even yell or kick at them until they actually make a
threatening move. This dog didn't make one, but the cop shot it anyway.
> > The
> >screening process should have eliminated this guy in the first place,
just
> >like it ought to eliminate those who would shoot a non-suspect who was
> >pulling out his wallet,
>
> uh huh, well tell me Dave how so? Officers make decisions in seconds that
> people like you will talk and discuss over months. There is no way to
screen
> out for all situations. Again I say, we (police) are human and yes
sometimes
> we make mistakes. Now as for the wallet, without knowing the details of
the
> situation I can't answer that, and nether can you. The light at the time,
the
> location, the clothes the suspect was wearing, the attitude of the suspect
the
> type of wallet too all play a part in a situation. It it was low light,
and we
> were looking for a suspect involved in a shooting, he had baggy clothes
and was
> running away and refused to obey orders to stop, he turns fast and pulls
out
> his wallet which has metal on it like a concho that reflects light.. yes I
> could see a possible shooting. What would you expect.. this is a sumation
of
> mistakes made by both the cop and the suspect.
And the suspect pays for the mistakes by both parties. What about when the
victim isn't even a suspect in any crime? It's been done in NY.
> >Addditionally, it's
> >my firmly-held opinion that when a cop does abuse his power, the
punishment
> >should be considerably more severe than when a average citizen breaks the
> >law.
>
> Oh so we not only have to be perfect in your eyes but if we are human and
make
> a mistake we must suffer more than an average citizen. Your ideals are
> unatainable for most humans.. no one is perfect and no one dosen't make
> mistakes you would hold police to a unreasonalble statdard.
I'm not talking about mistakes here Sean. I'm talking about abuse of power
and breaking the law. A cop doesn't pocket drugs during a bust by accident.
A cop doesn't mean to say "you have the right to remain silent" and just by
dumb luck say "I'll let ya go for a blowjob".
> > my
> >experience suggests that the ratio of bad cops to good cops is somewhat
> >higher than one per dozen you mention.
> >
>
> Uh huh, Dave I base my evaluation on personal experience and 30 years as
a Law
> Enforcement Officer. You base yours on .... what?
You have considerably more experience with cops. You also probably have a
different idea of what a bad apple is. Finally, the bad apples are probably
more prone to let folks like me (non-cops) see that side of them than you.
> >What good reason is there for me to
> >give him the benefit of the doubt, but not vice versa?
> >
>
> Because Dave, crooks don't wear a uniform or are a special color or a
certin
> age. All we can go on is training, and experience and comon sense.
I agree. And my experience suggests that there is no good reason to trust a
cop not to blow my brains out. I think we can agree that bad apples exist
at some undetermined ratio in our society. I believe their ratio is
somewhat higher in the police ranks than in the community as a whole. (This
may not be true in some of the slummier communities, but I don't live in one
of those). I think police work attracts some of those bad apples, and makes
others by the constant exposure to crime. Common sense then suggests that I
should trust the average complete stranger (civilian) over the average
complete stranger cop.
Blues,
Dave
Ofiddle
>>vest.
>
>>Maybe then you'll stop floating, eh?
>
>Jimbo dont float.
>
looked high to me.........
David Ferree
said:
>Sean, let's get some perspective here. What is the percentage of 'bad
>apples' in your opinion? Use any definition you believe to be fair.
>
>Michael
Great idea, Mike. And after he answers that, let's ask a fox if he'd
keep our chickens safe for us.
David
Rhonda Lea Kirk
"Rhonda Lea Kirk" <rhonda...@worldnet.att.net> wrote in
> http://www.illinoisdeathpenalty.com/ivict.html lists the
> names of 13 of these men. Some were freed for lack of
> evidence, others because of innocence. At least one helped
> obtain the conviction of the real perpetrator.
I wrote that last sentence backwards. In the case of Joseph
Burrows (who was innocent) it was the real murderer who
helped obtain his conviction.
I'm usually not dyslexic, but when I am, it's interesting.
JimBo
>From: "michael ware" mww...@grandecom.net
>I guess when we decide to get a life
>
>
"We" is plural.
Why dont you go find one first.
Come back in a year and tell us how it was.
David Ferree
Well, I did say "usually", and (so far at least), I don't want to
screw you.
David Ferree
<jlwal...@comcast.net> said:
>>"Rhonda Lea Kirk" <rhonda...@worldnet.att.net> wrote in message
>news:trMU9.110228$hK4.8...@bgtnsc05-news.ops.worldnet.att.net...
>> But if I had a nickel for every guy who ever wanted to tell
>> me the size of his...
>Walther responds...
>
>Any male who has a compelling need for this is one to avoid at all costs.
>Besides, when it happens, just take the square root of whatever they tell
>you and you will be closer to the truth.:-)
>
>Regards
>
>Walther
Oh great, now you have Walther not only telling you the size of his
root, but it's shape, too.
David
john
Not in SI units!
kallend
Rhonda, your statement concerning some being freed due to "lack of
evidence" makes the situation sound better than it really is. "Lack of
evidence" is a term generally used to imply that the guy is guilty but
it can't be proven. In the cases in the news in Illinois "lack of
evidence" in general meant that the evidence used to convict was later
shown to be have been fabricated by the police or prosecutors or the
state's crime lab, and no actual evidence of guilt existed. Apparently
it is easier to win a case against an indigent mentally handicapped
person using fabricated evidence and a bogus confession than to find and
convict the real criminal.
Even more disturbing to many of us is that the police and prosecutors
continue to resist obvious reforms, such as having interrogations
videotaped.
There is reason to believe that the criminal "justice" system in
Illinois is driven strongly by the need to obtain convictions and career
advancement, and very little by the need to deliver justice.
I hope the system is better in the needle happy states of Texas and
Virginia.
me
[snip]
> Maybe power does corrupt but I don't believe it always does. If it did our
> society would never have survived.
It hasn't survived. It is completely different from the society
which existed in 1776 (or just about any distant point in the past).
> This is my belief Rhonda, not to be taken
> as fact just my personal belief. I believe that right will always
> win out over wrong.
Well, depending upon your definition of "win" history proves you wrong.
Two letters for ya. OJ
> >Just because you are a good guy, doesn't make the rest of
> >your brothers in uniform (or not, as the case may be) good
> >guys.
>
> I agree, and I never ment to say that all cops are good guys. I just don't
> want all cops to wear the bad cop image. Don't blame the the whole tree for
> one bad apple.
You will be judged by the company you keep.
Kevin O'Connell
ynotssor
[...]
>> Any male who has a compelling need for this is one to avoid at all costs.
>> Besides, when it happens, just take the square root of whatever they tell
>> you and you will be closer to the truth.:-)
>
> Oh great, now you have Walther not only telling you the size of his
> root, but it's shape, too.
Speaking of "characteristics":
A couple attending an art exhibition at the National Gallery were staring at
a portrait that had them completely confused. The painting depicted three
very black and totally naked men sitting on a park bench. Two of the figures
had black penises, but the one in the middle had a pink penis.
The curator of the gallery realized that they were having trouble interpreting
the painting and offered his assessment.
He went on for nearly half an hour explaining how it depicted the sexual
emasculation of African-Americans in a predominately white, patriarchal
society. "In fact," he pointed out, "some serious critics believe that the pink
penis also reflects the cultural and sociological oppression experienced by
gay men in contemporary society."
After the curator left, a Scottish man approached the couple and said,
"Would you like to know what the painting is really about?"
"Now why would you claim to be more of an expert than the curator of the
gallery?" asked the couple.
"Because I'm the guy who painted it," he replied. "In fact, there's no
African-Americans depicted at all. They're just three Scottish coal-miners.
The only difference is that the guy in the middle went home for lunch."
--
use hotmail.com for any email replies
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Rhonda Lea Kirk
"kallend" <kal...@iit.edu> wrote in message
news:3E244401...@iit.edu...
> I hope the system is better in the needle happy states of
Texas and
> Virginia.
IThese are links to sites listing obviously innocent people
who have spent enormous amounts of time in jail. Two of them
(see the Centurion site) were put to death in spite of clear
evidence of their innocence.
I'm planning to write to Centurion Ministries to see if they
need a volunteer. It would enable me to use my skills on the
right side of the law.
http://www.dredmundhiggins.com/
http://www.innocenceproject.org/
http://www.centurionministries.org/
These relate to a total loss of police perspective:
http://www.instapundit.com/archives/005974.php
http://www.dfw.com/mld/startelegram/news/state/3901112.htm
Skip Smith
[snip]
> I hope the system is better in the needle happy states of Texas and
> Virginia.
We're not "needle happy".
We cook 'em with 'lectricity!
DZ SCUBIE
>which existed in 1776 (or just about any distant point in the past).
Kevin, everything has changed. This does not mean the belief in good and bad
as applied to how I live my life or how I treat people has. I still believe
that inside each person is the knowledge of right and wrong. As for my use of
the word "win" I believe that as long as I try to protect those who can't
protect themselves from those that would prey on them then I'm winning. This
is both as a Law Enforcement Officer or when I wear the uniform of the U.S. Air
Force.
>
> Two letters for ya. OJ
I consider this particular case to have hurt both the police and the judicial
system. But I will say that I will not judge the whole judicial system on one
or even several cases, that to my way of thinking is just plain wrong.
Criminals are let go every day because police can not arrest them because of
lack of evidence .. and the public screams in anger. Innocent people are
arrested or sent to prison because of bad police work...and the public screams
in anger. To me this is a catch 22 situation, but I will still go to work and
try and do the best job I can.
> You will be judged by the company you keep.
>
And this is different in what way by you judging all police by the few that are
bad?
Sorry, to me there is no quick fix. No quick answer. No soft solution.
Again, I will try to continue to do the best I can, I'm sorry if you think
the system will not work.
Sean
aka "The Fed"
Skip Smith
DZ SCUBIE wrote:
[snip]
> I consider this particular case to have hurt both the police and the judicial
> system. But I will say that I will not judge the whole judicial system on one
> or even several cases, that to my way of thinking is just plain wrong.
> Criminals are let go every day because police can not arrest them because of
> lack of evidence .. and the public screams in anger. Innocent people are
> arrested or sent to prison because of bad police work...and the public screams
> in anger. To me this is a catch 22 situation, but I will still go to work and
> try and do the best job I can.
it is not a catch-22 unless you do shoddy police work. surely you see
that, don't you?
Tom B
Rhonda Lea Kirk wrote in message ...
>
>But if I had a nickel for every guy who ever wanted to tell
>me the size of his...
Tell you or show you?
Tom B
Tom B
Rhonda Lea Kirk wrote in message ...
>
>news:v275lh1...@corp.supernews.com...
>> ronde lee : are you gthet tat that 275#++++++++lb idiot
>that landed in the
>> TURD POND about 1/2 mile from the DZ from THE REAL
>> DZ?????????????????????????
>
>Actually...
>
> ...no. But thanks for your concern.
>
>rl
>
>P.S. I think you need a new keyboard.
It ain't the keyboard. :)
Tom B
Tom B
john wrote in message <3E239576...@kallend.net>...
>Why don't you just read the reports. The system in Illinois IS
>"broken". The police commander (Burge) in the district where many of the
>arrests were made has been suspended for condoning and maybe encouraging
>systematic torture of suspects to obtain confessions. I didn't pardon
>anyone, our Republican governor did. Since Illinois has put innocent
>men in criminal training camps for years, maybe some of them will end up
>behind bars again. However, that has not been the case with the 13
>exonerated prior to yesterday.
Any statistician can demonstrate that errors can be guaranteed to occur in
ANY system, given enough time. If they happen to people with multiple page
rap sheets, I am less concerned for their welfare, than for the judicial
system as a whole. When well minded Governors commute the entire death row
population of a state, more than the system is broken. Rhodes did it to Ohio
10 or so years ago. Now it has happened again. I suspect there is a good
number in both groups there is no reasonable doubt about.
Tom B
Tom B
JimBo wrote in message <20030113232217...@mb-mg.aol.com>...
>>Subject: Re: Becky
>>From: dzsc...@aol.com (DZ SCUBIE)
>
>>I guess your right Rhonda, it is indefensible. There will always be good
>>people and bad people
>
Sorry to hear your pony died Jim. What is that saying? You milked the cow to
death?
Tom B
ynotssor
[...]
> it is not a catch-22 unless you do shoddy police work. surely you see
> that, don't you?
His name is Sean, not Shirley.
kallend
I'm not sure I follow you. Are you saying that you are not concerned if
some petty criminal gets sentenced to death, for a murder he didn't
commit, due to police or prosecutorial misconduct? (Note - the correct
word in these cases is misconduct, not error).
As an Illinois taxpayer, I'm quite happy to save the money of a capital
trial and associated proceedings, and just leave the (real) murderers to
rot behind bars for life. I'm also not happy that we had to pay out over
$30M to 4 of the exonerated folks who'd spent a decade on death row.
JDub
Good points John.
I'm not particularly familiar with the Illinois cases, but while at the UW I
studied eyewitness testimony and the vagaries of human memory and
perception. It turns out that while most people believe eyewitness testimony
is quite accurate, eyewitness memories are in fact horribly unreliable and
often grossly distorted by various factors. Factors such as weapon focus,
leading questions from police interviewers, problems with what psychologists
call "source monitoring" and photo spreads i.e: a witness may be presented
with photos of possible suspects and later asked to view a line up. The
person they ulimately pick as the perpetrator might be innocent and only
picked because the witness recognized them from the previous photo line up
or perhaps some other unrelated encounter, but confused the source of the
memory. One unfortunate young man had been featured in a newspaper article
as a promising high school athlete. A rape victim later confused him with
her attacker due to source monitoring problems. He was wrongly convicted of
the crime, and years later exonerated. Unfortunately this type of thing
isn't uncommon at all.
We had the chief defense attorney for the state of West Virginia as a guest
speaker in one of our classes. The state forensics lab was routinely
falsifying evidence to secure convictions. Many of them have since been
overturned based on DNA tests that weren't available at the time of the
original trials. It's bad enough when after ten years the state says "Oops,
sorry about that, you're free to go", but an execution can't be reversed
when new evidence comes to light.
When I was a teenager, I was assaulted by a drunk man that had a solid 80
lbs on me. The police exagerated the extent of my injuries a little bit and
they did so simply because they believed my version of the story. In this
case the guy was definitely guilty, so no injustice actually occurred, but
it was wrong just the same. At the time I wasn't sophisticated enough to
understand why this was wrong and said nothing.
What these two examples have in common is that the men in the justice system
didn't hesitate to lie to secure convictions and truly believed they were
doing the right thing. I've no reason to think this is all that unusual,
which makes the death penalty all that much scarier no matter what state
you're talking about.
I used to be pro-death penalty. In theory I still am, but in practice I
don't think we are anywhere near being able to apply it justly.
The question we have to ask as a society is how many innocent people is it
OK to put to death? If one in ten on death row is innocent is that
acceptable? What if it's your husband or brother?
-Josh
JDub
news:trMU9.110228$hK4.8...@bgtnsc05-news.ops.worldnet.att.net...
>
> "ynotssor" <"ynotssor"> wrote
>
> > [...]
> > > and nomater what happens,, when im 50-60-70--- i'll
> still call you "friend"
> >
> > It's usually the wimmenfolk that brag about their
> measurements ...
>
> Cheap bait. Cheap, cheap bait. I expect better from you,
> Tony.
>
> me the size of his...
220, 105, 95.
Let me know where to send the 15 cents.
-Josh
Chewie
> Then you at least partially agree with me. When I said I thought cops ought
> to be punished more severely for breaking the law while in uniform, that was
> what I was getting at.
No need to punish more severely. Just let them know they *will* be punished
if they do something wrong. There is a *huge* improvement between "free"
countries like france (or america), and more "controlled" countries like
singapore. Improvement on both sides: less abuse and less mistakes from the
cops tends to raise the respect from the population towards the cops.
> I understand that cops are human. I understand they will make mistakes.
If more people could understand this, cops wouldn't be allowed to rely so
much on their guns. Why would a traffic cop need to display a gun? Now
that's scary!
--
Chewie [beer adjudicator]
<http://skydiveasia.org>
Peanut4040
>Yeah, I was breakin no law,but the cops thought they could just stop me from
>engaging in my pedestrian activities because they were the cops and they
>were fuckin bored.
> I was just walking down the road and these bastards want to stop me and
>ask me all kinds of questions!
> Stupid shit like what is my name ,
> I have no doubt that you are a good cop Sean
he is,, i swear.
I'll back him.... he aint purfect,,, he's a fucking fed, but he's my damn
skdydive Pig. before anybody fucks with him, they need to okay it with me.
> The thing is Sean,
> so many of my generation, even the good folks, have had so many bad
>experiences with cops
> who overstepped their authority, that quite frankly, We trust none of you.
A MOST EXCELLENT PROCLAMATION FROM THE MIDDLE CLASS AMERICA. they fucked
us,,,, cut their fucking budget on the next election.,
Tom B
kallend wrote in message <3E24B729...@iit.edu>...
>
>I'm not sure I follow you. Are you saying that you are not concerned if
>some petty criminal gets sentenced to death, for a murder he didn't
>commit, due to police or prosecutorial misconduct? (Note - the correct
>word in these cases is misconduct, not error).
Not at all, and in fact would be happy to suggest that those responsible for
such gross misconduct simply replace the prisoner on death row, and let the
sentence process continue.
I said error, and meant error. I am saying that even knowing that sooner or
later in any human system that an error will be made, I support the capital
punishment system in the cases of "certain" and very aggravated death, or in
the cases where there is a record of multiple felony convictions involving
violence to others. I have a harder time with the death penalty for first
time felony offenders for this reason.
I have no problem with the Governor putting the state's execution on hold
till things are resolved. What I am not happy about is that his broad
commutation of sentence is just as unchangeable as execution of one of the
prisoners where misconduct occurred. Some very nasty people just got off
death row, even though in their cases there was no error, or misconduct.
Tom B
Tom B
Chewie wrote in message ...
>If more people could understand this, cops wouldn't be allowed to rely so
>much on their guns. Why would a traffic cop need to display a gun? Now
>that's scary!
A traffic stop is one of the most dangerous acts a Police officer can make.
Tom B