Damn it's hard to buy Nordic Skis Nowadays!
SMS
boots, and wanted NNN-BC boots and bindings. She also really needs
lighter skis than her Europa 99's for the kind of stuff she does.
There used to be at least 10 stores selling nordic skis on the San
Francisco Peninsula, including North Face (x2), Sierra Designs, Western
Mountaineering (x2), REI, Any Mountain, Helm of Sun Valley, The Co-op,
Mel Cotton's, and several other stores that I can't remember the names
of. Most of those stores are out of business, and of the remaining ones
no longer carry nordic skis. Only _one_ of the four REI stores on the
Peninsula carriers Nordic skis, and their selection and stock is awful.
I ended up driving 50 miles to Berkeley to go to Marmot Mountain Works,
a store that's a real PITA because it's busy but has only one employee
working the sales floor, going nuts with all the people bombarding him
for help. I also got a new pair for myself at Marmot, but they were out
of 3 pin bindings so I went to REI in Berkeley to buy bindings because
the REI near me in Saratoga ran out of bindings (both NNN-BC and 3 pin).
It's pretty bad that an area with a population of 3.5 million people
can't support a single actual mountaineering store.
Jeff Potter (of OutYourBackdoor.com)
Interesting report!
Yeah, it's weird times for XC.
I also note that Nordic does not equal Mountaineering.
We, too, used ot have several shops in our mid-Michigan town that sold
a decent assortment of XC skis... Now it's ONE.
Winters have been pretty darn good latey.
We DO have a mountaineering shop, though. Just no mountains within
1000 miles. The USA is weird.
And snowshoes are available. We have 2 decent snowshoeing days a year.
And 30 decent XC ski days. Within 10 miles of town we have 100 miles
of good trails of all kinds of activities, incl. XC ski., of course.
--JP
SMS
> Interesting report!
>
> Yeah, it's weird times for XC.
>
> I also note that Nordic does not equal Mountaineering.
Yes, this is true. The store in Berkeley has both mountaineering skis
and XC skis for tracks, skating, and light off-track use (i.e. the
Fischer Country Crown).
It's been an amazingly good snow year. I guess REI ran out of most
everything. When REI started expanding its retail locations beyond
Berkeley it was the end of most of the other outdoor gear stores. I'm as
guilty as anyone of going to REI, because unlike many of the
competitors, REI was smart enough to not keep banker's hours. I used to
be able to walk to a North Face store, but since it closed at 6:00 p.m.
there was no point in going there after work.
ge...@none.net
equipment has become so specialized and expensive over the past two to
three decades. The overhead is enormous to the degree one stocks
beyond the lower end of lines, and the dollar has been on the low side
for a good decade.
Gene
SMS
> One thing in the trend of stores getting out of x-c skiing is that the
> equipment has become so specialized and expensive over the past two to
> three decades. The overhead is enormous to the degree one stocks
> beyond the lower end of lines, and the dollar has been on the low side
> for a good decade.
Yeah, the high end has essentially become more like downhill ski
equipment, but sold in volumes so low that it's enormously expensive.
But the low end should not be so difficult. Even when they close it out
at the end of the season for 40% off, they still have positive margins.
ge...@none.net
know enough about those skis and the associated equipment to get the
right things into customers hands, yet those type of people are
typically more interested in working at a specialized shop. The buyer
of low end is in a sense no less serious than the upper end, and it's
easy for a shop to get a reputation for not knowing what they're doing
(e.g., REI). A specialized shop ends up being better at filling
the low end needs. The exceptions are large multi-faceted urban stores
like Hoigaards and (and to some extent) Joe's in the Twin Cities, where
they have the means to hire specialists and set up dedicated
departments.
Gene
Jan Gerrit Klok
Sorry to break it to you, but your spousal unit is part of the problem.
If skis and boots last this long before they "get old", you can do the
relatively easy math of how many pairs of skis can be sold to locals on
a yearly basis. You may add to that a percentage or promillage of the
tourists coming over to ski.
As much as passionate skiers promote the sport, on their 80's
equipment, wearing painfully bright tights with chaotic patters on
them, they are not business. They are taking up a part of the trail
system that doesn not generate revenue for the retailers.
I'll be the first to admit to be an online buyer, and being a deal
seeker. But, I buy a lot of skis/boots, a bit of clothing, and
hopefully the shops I buy from sometimes are in a ski area.
I live in the country of bicycles. Most little stores are barely
surviving though, and living mostly on repairs (lazy people letting
others get dirty hands). Last years bikes can barely be sold this year,
so keeping inventory is killing, yet also a necessity to attract buying
customers. Sukks to be in retain unless you're on top, in a ski-rich
area.
--
Jan Gerrit Klok
Bob Schwartz
> It's pretty bad that an area with a population of 3.5 million people
> can't support a single actual mountaineering store.
Let me get this straight. You live somewhere where it doesn't
snow. 16 years ago someone in your household bought a pair of
nordic skis.
In the intervening time I am guessing that none of the money
that your household spends on skiing goes to shops where you
live, a place where it doesn't snow.
Then, 16 years later you discover that all the shops that
used to sell skis in a place where it doesn't snow are gone.
Do I have that right?
It's a mystery to me how that could happen.
Bob Schwartz
Edgar
wrote:
Good observation Bob.
One of our local ski shops pretty much stopped stocking Nordic grear
other than a very limited selection a couple of years ago. The owner
told me of one experience that led to this decision. A knicker type
Nordic skier came in took an hour plus of his time picking out a $200
replacement for his 10 year old beater skis, then asked for a $100
trade-in on those beaters. In contrast snow boarders come in, look
around for 15 or 20 minutes and slap down $300 or $400 cash for new
boards.
Its also interesting that SMS's wife wanted lighter skis than here
E99s with NNN-BCs, but Marmot didn't have 3-pin bindings.
Unfortunately, too many Nordic skiers only want to buy skis at
season's end sales. I would rather have a pair that "fit" than a
cheap on-sale pair that are too stiff or too soft.
Edgar
SMS
> SMS wrote:
>> It's pretty bad that an area with a population of 3.5 million people
>> can't support a single actual mountaineering store.
>
> Let me get this straight. You live somewhere where it doesn't
> snow. 16 years ago someone in your household bought a pair of
> nordic skis.
>
> In the intervening time I am guessing that none of the money
> that your household spends on skiing goes to shops where you
> live, a place where it doesn't snow.
Not true, I've bought five more sets of skis for my kids as they've
grown, and four more pairs of boots.
> Then, 16 years later you discover that all the shops that
> used to sell skis in a place where it doesn't snow are gone.
> Do I have that right?
>
> It's a mystery to me how that could happen.
So how did all those shops survive for decades, with a much lower
population density?
SMS
> Its also interesting that SMS's wife wanted lighter skis than here
> E99s with NNN-BCs, but Marmot didn't have 3-pin bindings.
Marmot was sold out of three pin bindings. REI Saratoga was sold out.
REI Berkeley had two pairs left.
> Unfortunately, too many Nordic skiers only want to buy skis at
> season's end sales.
It didn't really matter to me. $120 sale versus $150 non-sale for the
skis is no biggie. I just wanted the skis in March because the spousal
unit won't go XC skiing any more with her Blisterfield II boots, and she
just started complaining about them.
> I would rather have a pair that "fit" than a
> cheap on-sale pair that are too stiff or too soft.
Who ever said that they were looking for something "cheap on-sale?"
You're inventing scenarios that don't exist.
What caused the loss of so many stores selling nordic skis were two
things. First, REI went from one store to thirteen stores in northern
California, taking a large portion of the very high margin sales for
clothing and footwear leaving the other stores little to offset lower
margin equipment sales. Second, the number of XC skiers has been
decreasing steadily.
Eugene Miya
SMS <scharf...@geemail.com> wrote:
>Marmot was sold out of three pin bindings. REI Saratoga was sold out.
>REI Berkeley had two pairs left.
That last two pairs of any kind of ski I bought outside the Bay Area.
Either way, the pickin's have tended for me to be the further North one goes.
>> Unfortunately, too many Nordic skiers only want to buy skis at
>> season's end sales.
;^)
>It didn't really matter to me. $120 sale versus $150 non-sale for the
...
>> I would rather have a pair that "fit" than a
>> cheap on-sale pair that are too stiff or too soft.
>Who ever said that they were looking for something "cheap on-sale?"
>
>You're inventing scenarios that don't exist.
>
>What caused the loss of so many stores selling nordic skis were two
>things. First, REI went from one store to thirteen stores in northern
>California, taking a large portion of the very high margin sales for
>clothing and footwear leaving the other stores little to offset lower
>margin equipment sales. Second, the number of XC skiers has been
>decreasing steadily.
Hmmmm.
Maybe all skier numbers going down, but I certainly know a few who stick
to XC due to downhill cost. The industry as a whole is certain
evolving, especially in a place like CA which gets marginal winters.
--
Looking for an H-912 (container).
Bob Schwartz
> What caused the loss of so many stores selling nordic skis were two
> things. First, REI went from one store to thirteen stores in northern
> California, taking a large portion of the very high margin sales for
> clothing and footwear leaving the other stores little to offset lower
> margin equipment sales. Second, the number of XC skiers has been
> decreasing steadily.
Well, that mystery is solved. There are fewer stores selling
ski stuff because not many people were ever interested in
buying ski stuff.
I wonder if living in a place where it doesn't snow contributed
at all to that. Could that be another question that no one knows
the answer to?
Bob Schwartz
Edgar
Sorry SMS if you thought that my observations were intended to apply
to you or your familily. My observations regarding Nordic skiers (at
least the touring or casual cross country skiers) looking for cheap
skis is a general observation.
I also have to say that I have bought skis and ski stuff in part
because I came across a "good deal". That's why shops put stuff on
sale - to get rid of the merchandise that didn't sell. I also buy pre-
season for good ski selection.
But I do have to reiterate my obervation that I know a lot of American
Nordic skiers who only buy stuff on sale, or at ski-swaps or at the
Goodwill used stores. In a free market economy, where skiers vote
with there dollars, mercants tend to stock what folks will "vote"
for. No dollar votes, not XC skis on the racks.
What I find especially sad is the new skiers looking for bargin XC
gear at ski swaps or on E-bay when they do not have the knowledge (or
friends with knowledge) of how and what to buy. Then they get skis
that drag or don't grip. Some even leave ski-swaps with boots that
don't match the bindings mounted on the used skis.
The local ski shop mentioned eariler (prospective buyer wanted the
$100 trade-in) use to stock bargin 3-pin boots for all the folks
buying old skis with 3-pin bindings.
PS. Several years ago (4 or 5), I bought my Fisher waxable
Outtabounds and Excursion boots w/ 3-pin cable bindings from Marmot in
Berkeley. Paul spent about 2 hours helping me with ski selection,
doing a special order for the waxable skis, and fitting and custom
mold the boots. I did this mid-week when Paul could spend the proper
amount of time taking care of me.
Bob
In my view, you were lucky to have it good in the past ;-) Being
relatively new to the sport, I've never known the SF Bay Area to have
even one decent shop for XC gear. I've bought all my (and spousal
unit's) equipment at either Sierra Nordic or Paco's - both in Truckee.
There may be other shops in the Tahoe area for BC gear - Just go there
and let them set you up with a modern kit.
Bob
Terje Mathisen
> SMS wrote:
>> It's pretty bad that an area with a population of 3.5 million people
>> can't support a single actual mountaineering store.
> Hi SMS,
> In my view, you were lucky to have it good in the past ;-) Being
> relatively new to the sport, I've never known the SF Bay Area to have
> even one decent shop for XC gear. I've bought all my (and spousal
> unit's) equipment at either Sierra Nordic or Paco's - both in Truckee.
> There may be other shops in the Tahoe area for BC gear - Just go there
> and let them set you up with a modern kit.
I think we have it pretty tough here in Oslo:
Only 3-4 really good xc stores, and I had to stand in line with a queue
ticket for half an hour or more, even in the middle of the day on a Tuesday.
The half-price Madshus racing skis which were all in the 60-64 kg
(factory-)marked range turned out to be too long: 210 cm, which
explained why they were half-price. :-(
I believe Norwegians buy more xc racing gear than the next 3-5 countries
combined (Russia/Sweden/Finland/Germany/?/?).
(I just googled around a bit, and it turns out that in 2008 Norwegians
bought 137,000 pairs of racing skis, out of a total of 300,000 xc skis.
Russians buy even more skis but not nearly as many racing skis.)
Terje
--
- <Terje.Mathisen at tmsw.no>
"almost all programming can be viewed as an exercise in caching"
SMS
> Hmmmm.
> Maybe all skier numbers going down, but I certainly know a few who stick
> to XC due to downhill cost. The industry as a whole is certain
> evolving, especially in a place like CA which gets marginal winters.
I'm thinking of our local Sierra Club Ski Touring section. We used to
have monthly meetings with 100+ people, and probably 70 trips a season.
Now we get maybe 15 people at a meeting and about 12-15 trips a season.
In the 1980's we had a mix of people from their 20's to their 80's. Now
it's mainly 50's to 80's with almost no younger people interested.
ge...@none.net
first post. With a total membership of 50-60,000, the Angeles chapter's
sections had lots of x-c ski trips locally and to the Sierra in the
1990s. It was through them - and occasionally hopping a ride on an
aircraft co. alpine club bus - that I got started. I wonder if they've
had the same diminution of numbers in LA.
Gene
jeff potter
>
> - Show quoted text -
Maybe it's a brief blip caused by a fad in snowshoeing? Hightech
snowshoeing is going to fade and maybe folks will shift back to
skiing.
Our local outdoor shop only sells mountaineering stuff -- but not
really -- that can't last either. The kids cannot be buying much
climbing rope in an area 1000+ miles from climbing. Expedition tents
can't be moving quick. This stuff must be in the shops as props. It's
close to campus -- it has to be about the fluffy clothes.
I've seen a couple snowshoe tracks out there this winter, but we live
in ski country not shoe country. In the 80's the local outdoor shop
sold skis and there were traffic jams of skiers out at the edge of
town. Ever to return?
I'm going to attend an MSU Outing Club meeting here soon. (It's the
Spring Break pukefest this week.) The OC today is set up for doing
long-distance trips. When I was in school, and a member, we did local
stuff. They seem agreeable to local stuff still. I'll test the water,
check the vibe. I'm curious as to why local activity hasn't been a
mainstay. That's the Nordic Way. Biking, canoeing, seakayaking, small
sailboats, rowing, XC skiing... all this can be done cheap and close
to town. Yet the OC mission is stated as being about climbing,
whitewater and caving -- all 500+ miles away. Somehow, to me, this
relates to activity popularity shifts... Let's see what I find!
--JP
SMS
> Our local outdoor shop only sells mountaineering stuff -- but not
> really -- that can't last either. The kids cannot be buying much
> climbing rope in an area 1000+ miles from climbing.
People like to buy their equipment close to home. That's why stores that
are hundreds of miles from the closest snow sell skis (ditto for
climbing equipment).
I remember when REI didn't sell downhill skis or snowboards, and they
had a tiny selection of rather crappy road bicycles. Now they are into
downhill skiing and snowboarding and mountain biking big time, and less
into stuff like backpacking or XC skiing. In the Bay Area, only two of
their nine stores carry XC skis (Berkeley and Saratoga). I don't blame
them; stocking ten different sizes of ten different ski models, and 15
different sizes of five types of boots, is tough when the TAM is so small.
REI is one of the few stores where you can buy a commuter bike or
touring bike--few bicycle stores carry them any more, but REI still has
them made for them under their Novara brand.
Bob Schwartz
original post. Really, this is about your dislike for REI. Which
is OK, this is usenet after all.
SMS wrote:
> People like to buy their equipment close to home. That's why stores that
> are hundreds of miles from the closest snow sell skis (ditto for
> climbing equipment).
I'm not sure you're connected with reality here.
If I lived a couple of hours drive from the nearest skiable snow
I have no doubt that the nearest shop to buy ski stuff would be
a couple of hours drive away. And when Gene talks about ski shops
in the Twin Cities, in a similar situation I doubt many of them
would be devoting floor space to skis.
The guy that runs my favorite shop knows the numbers. He knows
how much revenue per square foot he needs in order to justify
the space. Years ago he used to sell inline skates. He stopped
when the revenue stream dropped below that point, and he replaced
them with something else.
We have chain stores here too. Clothing has better markups and
require no sales expertise. The local shop sells Patagonia and
Trek branded stuff, where he isn't competing directly with the
chain stores. Most of his stuff targets a niche where he can
get his margins to a point where he can survive.
If something changes his numbers then he has to adapt to that.
Now, I don't know the details about retail operations in the bay
area. But a former employer with headquarters there kept a failed
business model afloat for years by burning through massively
appreciated real estate. So I am guessing that shops in the area
were adapting to this, and that marginal uses were shaken out.
And I hate to say it, but selling ski stuff in a place where it
doesn't snow just might be a marginal use.
> I remember when REI didn't sell downhill skis or snowboards, and they
> had a tiny selection of rather crappy road bicycles. Now they are into
> downhill skiing and snowboarding and mountain biking big time, and less
> into stuff like backpacking or XC skiing. In the Bay Area, only two of
> their nine stores carry XC skis (Berkeley and Saratoga). I don't blame
> them; stocking ten different sizes of ten different ski models, and 15
> different sizes of five types of boots, is tough when the TAM is so small.
>
> REI is one of the few stores where you can buy a commuter bike or
> touring bike--few bicycle stores carry them any more, but REI still has
> them made for them under their Novara brand.
See, you're just not that connected to reality. No one carries
touring bikes anymore because bicycle touring represents a market
niche. If you sell a million bikes only a small number of them
will ever carry a pannier.
But the world is flooded with commuter bikes.
http://www.trekbikes.com/us/en/bikes/urban/
http://www.specialized.com/us/en/bc/SBCExperience.jsp?eid=4356&menuItemId=12189
http://www.giant-bicycles.com/en-us/bikes/model/escape.city/6963/43123/
Just swimming with them. Every major bike manufacturer has a
product in that space. Unlike touring bikes, which only represent
a small niche.
And I want to note that if the numbers on the Sierra Club ski
outings are dropping, it is entirely possible that that is a
reflection on the Sierra Club and not on skiing. Is the hair
color on the remaining outings trending a little grayer?
Bob Schwartz
ge...@none.net
Bob Schwartz <bob.sc...@sbcREMOVEglobal.net> wrote:
> And I want to note that if the numbers on the Sierra Club ski
> outings are dropping, it is entirely possible that that is a
> reflection on the Sierra Club and not on skiing. Is the hair
> color on the remaining outings trending a little grayer?
I'm no longer a member, but aging was so much the case in LA by the mid
1990s that they were actively working on more youth-oriented
recruiting. The Bay Area seemed a fair bit younger, but I never got a
full look. It didn't help, at least in California, when about 10 years
ago it came to the surface that the underlying principles of the Sierra
Club are anti-immigrant, with one faction running a national slate
openly on that platform and getting 40% of the vote (immigrants mean
more population, therefore screw up the environment, so the argument
goes). But I think the shift is mainly the Me Generation and its
subsequent variants being less interested, or less able to afford
certain little-used types of increasingly expensive toys, such as x-c
skis (individual income has pretty much been dropping since the early
1970s in the U.S., while household income has been flat, at least prior
to 2008).
Gene
Bob Schwartz
> On Wed, 10 Mar 2010 15:48:47 -0600
> Bob Schwartz <bob.sc...@sbcREMOVEglobal.net> wrote:
>
>> And I want to note that if the numbers on the Sierra Club ski
>> outings are dropping, it is entirely possible that that is a
>> reflection on the Sierra Club and not on skiing. Is the hair
>> color on the remaining outings trending a little grayer?
>
> I'm no longer a member, but aging was so much the case in LA by the mid
> 1990s that they were actively working on more youth-oriented
> recruiting. The Bay Area seemed a fair bit younger, but I never got a
> full look. It didn't help, at least in California, when about 10 years
> ago it came to the surface that the underlying principles of the Sierra
> Club are anti-immigrant, with one faction running a national slate
> openly on that platform and getting 40% of the vote (immigrants mean
> more population, therefore screw up the environment, so the argument
> goes).
Actually I was thinking about the ill advised war on mountain
biking. By the mid 90s the Sierra Club would have been well into
their effort to alienate outdoors oriented young people.
> But I think the shift is mainly the Me Generation and its
> subsequent variants being less interested, or less able to afford
> certain little-used types of increasingly expensive toys, such as x-c
> skis (individual income has pretty much been dropping since the early
> 1970s in the U.S., while household income has been flat, at least prior
> to 2008).
The Birkie had a record turnout this year.
The average Birkie skier is atypical, because they represent a
demographic able to travel to a ski race. But here are the numbers.
http://www.birkie.com/news_article/show/37342
They are a highly educated group and probably more resistant than
others to economic trends.
Bob Schwartz
SMS
> I'm no longer a member, but aging was so much the case in LA by the mid
> 1990s that they were actively working on more youth-oriented
> recruiting. The Bay Area seemed a fair bit younger, but I never got a
> full look. It didn't help, at least in California, when about 10 years
> ago it came to the surface that the underlying principles of the Sierra
> Club are anti-immigrant, with one faction running a national slate
> openly on that platform and getting 40% of the vote (immigrants mean
> more population, therefore screw up the environment, so the argument
> goes).
There are other problems besides that group of idiots with their
anti-immigration agenda trying to hijack the club's agenda. The local
chapter where I am located has been in bed with big developers trying to
build high-density housing out in the suburbs. I got a nastygram from
our local chapter when I used quotes, in context, from the National
Sierra Club web site in a local ballot measure. The local chapter was
against us, and was furious that we quoted the National Sierra Club in
our ballot argument (we won, big time).
But I think the shift is mainly the Me Generation and its
> subsequent variants being less interested, or less able to afford
> certain little-used types of increasingly expensive toys, such as x-c
> skis (individual income has pretty much been dropping since the early
> 1970s in the U.S., while household income has been flat, at least prior
> to 2008).
You'd be hard pressed to find any sporting goods equipment that has
stayed as constant in price as non-extreme XC skis. In real dollars,
it's much cheaper now, and most of the stuff is not even made in China.
SMS
> Actually I was thinking about the ill advised war on mountain
> biking. By the mid 90s the Sierra Club would have been well into
> their effort to alienate outdoors oriented young people.
Yes, that was exceedingly stupid.
runcyc...@yahoo.com
Nothing to be upset about. Bejing has way more than 3.5 mln people, I
am sure you would have an even harder time there. San Fran is
relatively close to the Sierrras (3 hrs, day trip for me), but most of
my co-workers (scientists) go to the Sierras once a winter, and that's
for "real" skiing (for me nordic is "real" but that's a different
story). If you need quality XC stuff you have to go where the snow is
- i.e. Truckee, or go online. And backcountry E99-like stuff is even
more esoteric than nordic per se (i.e. skiing on groomed trails).
Mammoth Mntn in Berkeley is probably the only store in the BA that can
be remotely called a "montaineering store". Most people I see there
are renting downhill skis to ski at SugarBowl. If you want quality
specialized equipment you have to go out of your way. What percentage
of the average population finds sleeping in the snow plain insane and
pointless? 99.99.
ge...@none.net
Yeah, but they are not the ones who would keep the stores in the Bay
Area and LA in x-c ski gear.
Gene