A couple questions for Mike Gray.

[Jim Holcomb]

I already know what you are against. So tell me, what is YOUR philosophy
towards diving. Educate me. I've got an open mind. What is your approach
to gear configuration? What is your approach to team integrity? Do you
believe streamlining of gear cuts drag? What are your views on diving deep
on air? Do you believe a pony should be able to be handed off in an
emergency? How do you feel about the over - reliance on computers? Should
open water instructors be taking students on a tour of overhead environments
such as Ginnie? What do you think of solo diving and why? What kind of
diving are you into? What are your views on using deep stops during deco?
Do you believe O2 is better as a shallow deco gas or 80/20 and why? Do you
find that a 50/50 gas on deep stops makes a notable difference in your
overall deco time? What do you think about split fins in an overhead
environment - possible entanglement hazard?

Jim Holcomb

[mike gray]

Jim Holcomb wrote:
>
> I already know what you are against.

No, I don't think ya do.

> So tell me, what is YOUR philosophy
> towards diving. Educate me. I've got an open mind. What is your approach
> to gear configuration?

The appropriate gear for the job at hand. It's not philosophy, it's
practicality.

> What is your approach to team integrity?

I'm all for integration. For diving, however, I generally prefer solo.
If asked to babysit someone's kid or if paid to guide, I will devote
100% of my attention to making the person's dive fun and succesful. If
buddied with another competent diver, I tow the flag on the first dive,
he tows it on the second, no other promises. "Team integrity" is a slick
phrase and useful in a dive where cooperation and coordination of
multiple divers is important for the task at hand: archeology, caving,
salvage, eg. It is a crutch in most rec diving, scares off the critters,
interrupts the sublime solitude that attracts me to diving, and is a
distraction.

> Do you believe streamlining of gear cuts drag?

Depends on what you mean by "streamlining". If yer talking about the way
it is used here, the answer is no. Looking streamlined (the SAE defines
it as "an appearance...") and reducing hydrodynamic drag are two very
different things and often counter one another. Kamm demonstrated that
very effectively in the design of race cars. Reducing drag at the
expense of configuring for the dive is another mistake in many cases, an
absolute that is anything but. To my knowledge, noone has ever actually
measured the drag of alternate scuba configs, so it is a moot point for
the time being. Great advertising gimmick, though.

> What are your views on diving deep on air?

It used to be the only way to get there and the dangers are vastly
overrated. But technology marches on and I'm not one to refuse to change
with the times. Rarely do it any more.

> Do you believe a pony should be able to be handed off in an
> emergency?

Good idea, but I've never seen a pony rig that could easily be handed
off but would stay attached in, say, a snaggy wreck. And the gas in the
pony may not be appropriate at a given depth. Better to expect the other
diver to take yer primary and react accordingly.

> How do you feel about the over - reliance on computers?

You mean the under-reliance on computers? Technology marches on and I'm
not one to refuse to change with the times. Mix, computers, single hose
regs, I've embraced em all. When mix-sensing computers become reliable
and cheap, my plan slates will be in the trash, further streamlining my
config.

> Should open water instructors be taking students on a tour of overhead environments
> such as Ginnie?

Is that a trick question?

> What do you think of solo diving and why?

See above.

> What kind of diving are you into?

Rec

> What are your views on using deep stops during deco?

Jerk em outta the water and stick em in the chamber. The jury's out, and
my view will be whatever the credible scientific information yields.
Technology marches on and I'm not one to refuse to change with the
times. It's clear that the Keller/Buehlmann experiments have been and
will continue to be improved on.

> Do you believe O2 is better as a shallow deco gas or 80/20 and why?

See answer above. My personal choice is O2, but I'm old enough to
remember the arguments in favor of 80/20 which were based on the
understanding of deco at the time. Technology marches on and I'm not one
to refuse to change with the times.

> Do you find that a 50/50 gas on deep stops makes a notable difference in your
> overall deco time?

Another trick question? Hell, 50/50 on a deep stop would eliminate the
need to ever deco again.

> What do you think about split fins in an overhead environment - possible entanglement > hazard?

Never even thought about it. But in a wreck, everything's an
entanglement hazard.

Did I get any right?

m

[Suds]

Mike,

Old Farmer John has been over on the tech list whining about you and Popeye
so expect a few more of those idiots to come over here looking for a fight.
(Would you like me to forward his posts? LOL) I didn't feel a need to warn
you since you can obviously take care of yourself. C|;^{)

Suds

--
In Four States: Texas, Ohio, Georgia, and Arkansas, it is illegal to sell a
vibrator. Yet in all of these states, a person can easily purchase a
handgun. I've never heard of anyone committing mass murder with a vibrator!

--From "The Vagina Monologues"

"Jim Holcomb" <scub...@earthlink.net> wrote in message
news:caXb7.3714$nb4.3...@newsread1.prod.itd.earthlink.net...

[Jim Holcomb]

Fact is, Suds, Farmer has been over on the techdiver list catching hell from
me because I don't like his posting method and he doesn't have enough
experience in the area he advocates. I equally don't like Gray for the same
reasons. If you actually subscribe to techdiver than tell the whole truth.
He's whining because I'm on his ass and I'm not over here on rec. scuba to
take up for him. I'm here to see what the hell Gray stands for. After
reading his responses to my questions - it sounds to me like Gray got a good
spanking by a DIR diver in his previous life. He refers to "team integrity"
as a "slick" phrase. He refers to "streamlining" as a good "advertising
gimmick". He states that the dangers of deep air are "vastly overrated". He
thinks computers are not being relied on enough when half the people out
there can't read tables. He apparently doesn't know jack shit about deep
stops and 50/50 deco.
It amazes me completely that people are willing to be a sockpuppet for this
moron. He brags that he's a stroke. Does he know the definition of a
stroke? Do you? I'm not trying to pick a bunch of shit with everybody on
here - but some of you need to think for yourselves. You got a moron like
Gray degrading a philosophy he apparently knows nothing about and, on the
other side, you have DIR "advocates" arguing about something they apparently
don't know anything about. Why don't some of you shut up the bullshit and
discuss the issues, debate the issues, ask some questions, answer some
questions and quit hopping on the first wagon that's being driven by someone
with a cute one-liner. Either you're a diver or you're not. Either you
believe in something or you don't. I hear all this crap about DIR divers
not being able to think for ourselves - well, that's bullshit. It's thinking
for ourselves that led us to DIR and safer diving. Maybe some others ought
to get their head out of their ass instead of lining up behind morons.

Jim Holcomb
"Suds" <pa...@home.com> wrote in message
news:7zZb7.19096$c8.51...@news1.denver1.co.home.com...

[mike gray]

Suds wrote:
>
> Mike,
>
> Old Farmer John has been over on the tech list whining about you and Popeye
> so expect a few more of those idiots to come over here looking for a fight.
> (Would you like me to forward his posts? LOL) I didn't feel a need to warn
> you since you can obviously take care of yourself. C|;^{)

Thanks for the offer, but a tech lister already passed it on. I enjoyed
the most serious greivance, which went:

> Gray actually created a "movement" in which
> he has been getting recreational divers to "want" to call themselves
> "Strokes", and he calls himself a member of "Team Stroke".

At my age, a succesful movement is incredibly satisfying. But I gotta
confess that I had nothing to do with the creation of this one.

m

[chilly]

Who the f*ck do you think you are? You don't know anything about anything
that has been going on here for the past few years. Your post is full of
inaccuracies and assumptions. If we wanted to hear what you had to say
about it, we'd come over to techdiver and yank your chain. So you came to
find out what Mike Gray stands for, huh? Well, talk to him about it and
quit trying to abuse everyone else over here that reads and posts to this
board. You pompous ass. Over here, *you* are a newbie and haven't proven
yourself to us. I don't give a damn who you are over on techdiver. (and
BTW, as an aside, I do know who you are over at techdiver)

Jim Holcomb <scub...@earthlink.net> wrote in message

news:Se%b7.18828$t41.3...@newsread2.prod.itd.earthlink.net...

[mike gray]

Jim Holcomb wrote:
>
> I'm here to see what the hell Gray stands for.

I'm impressed. Glad you're here. Take notes.

> After
> reading his responses to my questions - it sounds to me like Gray got a good
> spanking by a DIR diver in his previous life.

Not hardly. My previous life was long before DIR bloomed from the manure
pile.

> He refers to "team integrity"
> as a "slick" phrase. He refers to "streamlining" as a good "advertising
> gimmick". He states that the dangers of deep air are "vastly overrated". He
> thinks computers are not being relied on enough when half the people out
> there can't read tables. He apparently doesn't know jack shit about deep
> stops and 50/50 deco.

So educate me. Tell me how "team integrity" differs from the age old
buddy system. Lay some fearsome drag numbers on me. What is the
incidence of problems as a result of deep air? Tell me how forty year
old technology beats tables-on-the-fly, or why Buehlmann developed
computer models first, then put them in tables for dummies. And explain
the advantage of 50/50 at the 160 foot stop.

Before you talk about who knows jack shit, put yer brain in gear. If you
can get yer fearless leader's permission to do so.

> It amazes me completely that people are willing to be a sockpuppet for this
> moron.

Look around. The sock puppets here were all sent over from the DIR/GUE
groups. If you actually believe anyone on rec.scuba is my sock puppet...
Well, OK, John Francis is my sock puppet. And maybe Lee Bell. And
Volker, he's my fave sock puppet.

> He brags that he's a stroke. Does he know the definition of a
> stroke? Do you?

Apparently you do not. Do a little research and you'll see why I'm proud
to call myself a Stroke. Start here: http://www.divegirl.com/diw.html

> I'm not trying to pick a bunch of shit with everybody on
> here - but some of you need to think for yourselves.

We all need to think for ourselves. Some do. They are called Strokes.

> You got a moron like Gray

Aha! There's that sock puppet talk! Can't you guys come up with
something original?

> degrading a philosophy he apparently knows nothing about and, on the
> other side, you have DIR "advocates" arguing about something they apparently
> don't know anything about.

Strokes on the left of me, DIR on the right. Stuck in the middle with
you.

> Why don't some of you shut up the bullshit and
> discuss the issues, debate the issues, ask some questions, answer some
> questions and quit hopping on the first wagon that's being driven by someone
> with a cute one-liner.

Actually, that's been going on all along over here. Why don't you can
the bullshit and join in?

> Either you're a diver or you're not. Either you
> believe in something or you don't. I hear all this crap about DIR divers
> not being able to think for ourselves - well, that's bullshit. It's thinking
> for ourselves that led us to DIR and safer diving. Maybe some others ought
> to get their head out of their ass instead of lining up behind morons.

Line up behind DIR and get yer head stuck in some egomaniac's ass? No
thanks. Rather have my head in my own ass if forced to make the choice.

With profound respect
m

[mike gray]

chilly wrote:
>
> Who the f*ck do you think you are? You don't know anything about anything
> that has been going on here for the past few years. Your post is full of
> inaccuracies and assumptions. If we wanted to hear what you had to say
> about it, we'd come over to techdiver and yank your chain. So you came to
> find out what Mike Gray stands for, huh? Well, talk to him about it and
> quit trying to abuse everyone else over here that reads and posts to this
> board. You pompous ass. Over here, *you* are a newbie and haven't proven
> yourself to us. I don't give a damn who you are over on techdiver. (and
> BTW, as an aside, I do know who you are over at techdiver)

Aw, jeeeez! It's so nice to see my sock puppets jumping in. If Jammie
and Scott will follow, I'll have the whole of rec.scuba.

Now ask him about 50/50 at the 160 foot stop.

m

[John Francis]

On Wed, 08 Aug 2001 00:43:26 GMT, mike gray <oxm...@worldnet.att.net>
wrote:

>Look around. The sock puppets here were all sent over from the DIR/GUE
>groups. If you actually believe anyone on rec.scuba is my sock puppet...
>Well, OK, John Francis is my sock puppet.
>

>With profound respect
>m

Wow, the blind really are leading the blind.

J

Lasciate ogni speranza, voi ch'entrate!... Dante

[Jim Holcomb]

What inaccuracies? I quoted Gray! Those were his words. And if you know who
I am from techdiver you would know that I WAS THE ONE busting Farmer's ass
on that list for spewing shit just like Gray does.
Wake up - you just want to yap.

Jim Holcomb

"chilly" <sla...@home.com> wrote in message
news:nP%b7.54379$sM.14...@news2.rdc1.ab.home.com...

[chilly]

I love it when you're hot! :^P

mike gray <oxm...@worldnet.att.net> wrote in message
news:3B708B43...@worldnet.att.net...

[mike gray]

chilly wrote:
>
> I love it when you're hot! :^P

Oh, yeah, and chilly. chilly's my sock puppet, too.

m

[Dan Bracuk]

"Suds" <pa...@home.com> wrote

> Old Farmer John has been over on the tech list whining about you and Popeye
> so expect a few more of those idiots to come over here looking for a fight.

I feel so left out.

Dan Bracuk
Toronto, Canada
Warning - Dan Volker thinks my opinions kill people.
Best of Rec.Scuba http://www.chaoticarts.com/~scuba/

[chilly]

Hey, everyone's got an opinion, even you.

George <ghmorrisr...@telocity.com> wrote in message
news:jj61ntc01913m18ta...@4ax.com...
> On Wed, 08 Aug 2001 00:35:31 GMT, "chilly" <sla...@home.com> shaped the
> electrons to say:
>
> --Who the f*ck do you think you are? You don't know anything about
anything
> --that has been going on here for the past few years. Your post is full
of
> --inaccuracies and assumptions. If we wanted to hear what you had to say
> --about it, we'd come over to techdiver and yank your chain.
>
> No, we quite like hearing about it here. 'Specially when it gets such a
cool
> reaction. Ain't usenet great?
>
> --So you came to
> --find out what Mike Gray stands for, huh? Well, talk to him about it
and
> --quit trying to abuse everyone else over here that reads and posts to
this
> --board. You pompous ass.
>
> Didn't look like an unusually pompous ass to me. Seemed to fit right in.
> Certainly no worse than Jammer, and lots of the questions were perfectly
> reasonable. Decent of Mike to answer them.
>
> --Over here, *you* are a newbie and haven't proven
> --yourself to us. I don't give a damn who you are over on techdiver. (and
> --BTW, as an aside, I do know who you are over at techdiver)
>
> Please, put the childish, elitist bs to one side. You don't speak for
"us". This
> is a public forum, not your private playground where a few people call the
> shots. To crawl into rec.scuba you don't "need" to prove yourself. That
happens
> on paid for, moderated lists. If you don't like it, don't read the posts.

[Lee Bell]

Suds wrote

> Old Farmer John has been over on the tech list whining about you and
Popeye
> so expect a few more of those idiots to come over here looking for a
fight.
> (Would you like me to forward his posts? LOL) I didn't feel a need to
warn
> you since you can obviously take care of yourself. C|;^{)

They're complaining about Dan Bracuk too, but who's counting. On ther other
hand, Jim Holcomb appears to be a voice of reason, perhaps salvagable if he
sticks around long enough to comprehend and understand that we're not better
or worse, just different. We might even dig up a thing of two for him to
take back to his tech associates. They might listen to one of their own and
he might listen to us with a more open mind . . . I hope.

Lee

[Jim Holcomb]

That's what I'm talking about Gray - your just full of shit. You don't
think something as simple as a console dangling creates drag? It doesn't
take a fucking study to figure that out. 50/50 at a 160 stop? That will
fucking kill you - you idiot. Every one talks about how you attempt to
twist the words of whoever's posting and no it's not just Farmer. Well
twist this asshole - did you NOT say anything I quoted you as saying above.
And for the record, I have no leader! I happen to believe that diving is a
dangerous sport and can be done safely through education and proper
training. I believe the "team" is the dive. I believe the use of more and
more computers have led to the lack of planning in more and more dive
activities both recreational and technical. I believe the level of training
being produced by most training agencies is insufficient. I believe more
and more divers without any expertise in a given area are advocating unsafe
practices. And, finally, I believe people like you and Farmer cloud the
horizon to the point that divers who really want to learn something on a
forum such as this - don't. And to you "chilly" - you dare call me a pompous
ass and in the same sentence say I'm not credible because I'm a newbie on
rec.scuba. That's a charm! A real charm! Talk about pompous!
Oh, and BTW, Gray - on the 50/50 question - I asked you what you thought - I
never expressed an opinion - contrary to what you thought you read. I have
yet to find the advantage of a 50/50 deco gas of more than just a couple
minutes in the dives I have done.

Jim Holcomb

"mike gray" <oxm...@worldnet.att.net> wrote in message
news:3B708B43...@worldnet.att.net...

[chilly]

I appreciate your insight.

I always look forward to Mike sharing his diving philosophies and technique.
And I could not agree with you more, that someone that has been diving as
long as Mike (and still being alive and not having killed anyone lately),
must have much to offer us besides just his tremendous wit.

You are, as ever, a gentleman. Thanks. ;^)

George <ghmorrisr...@telocity.com> wrote in message

news:jj71nt8do29bd0obg...@4ax.com...
> On Wed, 08 Aug 2001 02:03:13 GMT, "chilly" <sla...@home.com> shaped the
> electrons to say:
>
> --Hey, everyone's got an opinion, even you.
>
> Yeah, but I agree with you that stirring it up is the most fun!! <g>
>
> I think this thread has possibilities,
>
> 1. If its kept civil, we could have some good discussion on technique as
Mike
> has been diving since the dawn of time.
>
> 2. If its flames, it will be very entertaining and give all the lists
something
> to twitter on about how nasty the other side is.
>
> Either way, its a win.
>
> Geo

[chilly]

LSHTT etc.

Jim Holcomb <scub...@earthlink.net> wrote in message

news:3g1c7.19068$t41.4...@newsread2.prod.itd.earthlink.net...

[Lee Bell]

Jim Holcomb wrote . . .

Jim, I'm sorry. I may have overestimated your ability to keep an open mind.
Maybe, however, there's still hope. Go back and read what Mike said again
then give some thought to all the things neither of you said. If that
doesn't convince you there's more going on that your post to Suds suggests,
then let us know when you would like to go diving and we'll take you out and
show you what you may never discover otherwise.

Mikes a pretty good diver (a bit of an understatement). While he doesn't
think much of the DIR setup as an undisputable answer to all diving, he's
not quite as clueless as you seem to think. Would it surprise you to know
that his BC is as streamlined if not more streamlined than my Halcyon
stainless plate and 18 lb lift wing? Do you know how silly people look when
they try to sell the concept of streamlining to someone who is as
streamlined or perhaps better streamlined than they are?

You brought up the issue of split fins realtive to entanglement, a valid
point for a caver, but not real significant for an open water diver. Over
on techlist, there are people who actually asked why speed is important to a
diver and got away with claiming that fins are fins, with no differences in
efficiency. It's about time someone realized that the new crop of tech
divers look about as silly to us open water divers as we do to them, and
some of us were diving before some of the techies were born.

If you've come to us to share your information and share in ours, welcome.
If you've come to preach your dogma with a mind that is closed to the
possibility that you may not know enough to judge some of us here, then
you're wasting our time.

Lee

to those who have seen his setupin message
news:Se%b7.18828$t41.3...@newsread2.prod.itd.earthlink.net...

[Lee Bell]

Jim Holcomb wrote

> And if you know who I am from techdiver you would know that I WAS THE ONE
> busting Farmer's ass on that list for spewing shit just like Gray does.

I've got a deal for you. You keep on busting Farmer's ass for his very poor
representation of the DIR point of view and we'll bust Mike's when we think
he's off track. Frankly, we're not sure you know enough about him or us to
know when to criticize and when to nod. I, and quite a few others here,
have been diving with Mike. As a matter of fact a couple of us DIR
configured types dove with him around the end of last month.

He's seen your configuration. Have you seen his? Don't you think you
should before you condemn it?

Lee

[chilly]

Hey, George! Are you going to let Lee get away with using the word "us"? ;^P

Lee Bell <lee...@ix.netcom.com> wrote in message
news:9kq842$tp8$1...@slb2.atl.mindspring.net...

[Lee Bell]

George wrote

> 1. If its kept civil, we could have some good discussion on technique as
Mike
> has been diving since the dawn of time.

Ummm, I think I'm the one that started diving around the dawn of time. If I
recall correctly, Mike started much more recently, but devoted a larger
share of his life to it . . . and paid attention to what he does and why.

> 2. If its flames, it will be very entertaining and give all the lists
something
> to twitter on about how nasty the other side is.

That it will.

> Either way, its a win.

I have a bit different vision of a win. I'd consider it a win if someone
with some respect in the tech community actually took the time to understand
what is going on in teh Rec. community and realize that 1. There isn't as
much difference as one would think and 2. Both sides have something to learn
from the other . . . except Trey of course. He clearly knows it all . . .
or is that he clearly is a know it all.

Lee

[Jim Holcomb]

The most recent example would have been a couple weekends ago at LR. 100'
for 70 minutes using 32% backgas with O2 at 20'. I found that the 50/50 who
have decreased the overall runtime including deco from 87 minutes to 84
minutes. I have been running some planned dives on decoplanner and see a
trend on the deeper stuff where the 50/50 might make a dramatic difference.
I'll have to keep on it - keep learning.

Jim Holcomb

"George" <ghmorrisr...@telocity.com> wrote in message

news:vi81nt0luqfvjl96q...@4ax.com...
> On Wed, 08 Aug 2001 02:14:23 GMT, "Jim Holcomb" <scub...@earthlink.net>

shaped
> the electrons to say:
>

> -- I have
> --yet to find the advantage of a 50/50 deco gas of more than just a couple
> --minutes in the dives I have done.
>
> What kind of dives do you typically do Jim?
>
> I normally find I need 50% and 100% to deco in the ocean and keep enough
of a
> margin for my "teammate". Leaving out 50% would take my runtime from 75
mins to
> 105 mins on a dive from last weekend.
>
> Geo
>
>

[chilly]

Hey, isn't that what I just said to Jim? ;^)

Lee Bell <lee...@ix.netcom.com> wrote in message news:9kq8d7

(snip)I'd consider it a win if someone

> with some respect in the tech community actually took the time to
understand
> what is going on in teh Rec. community and realize that 1. There isn't as
> much difference as one would think and 2. Both sides have something to
learn

> from the other . . .(snip)
>

[John Francis]

On Wed, 08 Aug 2001 01:57:09 GMT, mike gray <oxm...@worldnet.att.net>
wrote:

>chilly wrote:

But she hadda remind you ... neener, neener, neener

[chilly]

You wouldn't a thought I'dda had to do that to a guy with his hand up my
skirt now would ya?

John Francis <johnf...@sympatico.ca> wrote in message
news:3b70a562....@news1.on.sympatico.ca...

[Jim Holcomb]

Lee -
What you don't understand is his configuration is not nearly as important to
me as his attitude is. As I've said before, the DIR advocates have been
painted with a broad brush by people like Gray. I'm not a WKPP diver and I
personally think GI3 is an asshole. Does that sound like the profile of the
typical DIR diver that some would want you to believe? I find that most
opponents of the DIR philosophy don't believe in anything in particular.
They just don't believe in DIR - be it personalities or whatever. And some
of these opponents, for whatever reason, become bitter about it.

Jim Holcomb

"Lee Bell" <lee...@ix.netcom.com> wrote in message

news:9kq842$tp8$1...@slb2.atl.mindspring.net...

[Suds]

Well then, welcome aboard and hang on. You are in for one hell of a ride.
(This guy is such an *sshole that I'm truly going to enjoy watching this,
again for the 100th time.)

Suds

--
In Four States: Texas, Ohio, Georgia, and Arkansas, it is illegal to sell a
vibrator. Yet in all of these states, a person can easily purchase a
handgun. I've never heard of anyone committing mass murder with a vibrator!

--From "The Vagina Monologues"

"Jim Holcomb" <scub...@earthlink.net> wrote in message

news:Se%b7.18828$t41.3...@newsread2.prod.itd.earthlink.net...

[John Francis]

On Wed, 08 Aug 2001 02:40:54 GMT, "chilly" <sla...@home.com> wrote:

>You wouldn't a thought I'dda had to do that to a guy with his hand up my
>skirt now would ya?

Adds a whole new dimension to the "sock puppet" image, huh?

[Suds]

Here's the first turn. Everyone hold up their hands and scream.

Suds

--
In Four States: Texas, Ohio, Georgia, and Arkansas, it is illegal to sell a
vibrator. Yet in all of these states, a person can easily purchase a
handgun. I've never heard of anyone committing mass murder with a vibrator!

--From "The Vagina Monologues"

"Jim Holcomb" <scub...@earthlink.net> wrote in message

news:kI1c7.4484$nb4.4...@newsread1.prod.itd.earthlink.net...

[mike gray]

Dan Bracuk wrote:
>
> "Suds" <pa...@home.com> wrote
> > Old Farmer John has been over on the tech list whining about you and Popeye
> > so expect a few more of those idiots to come over here looking for a fight.
>
> I feel so left out.

Nope, you weren't left out.

Sent: Monday, August 06, 2001 5:32 PM
Subject: RE: Word of advice, Jack

> REc.scuba has a couple of anti- DIR people with huge amounts of time on
> their hands, and an axe to grind against any DIR idea or person. Mike Gray
> is one, Dan Brakuk is another.

But at least he spelled my name right. HAHA.

m

[chilly]

Your quick, I don't usually admire that in a man, but in this case I'm
willing to make an exception. :^)

John Francis <johnf...@sympatico.ca> wrote in message

news:3b70a90d....@news1.on.sympatico.ca...

[mike gray]

Lee Bell wrote:
>
>
> Ummm, I think I'm the one that started diving around the dawn of time. If I
> recall correctly, Mike started much more recently, but devoted a larger
> share of his life to it . . . and paid attention to what he does and why.

I was not gonna bring that up, old man...

What's the DIR way to rig a goat's bladder?

m

[Lee Bell]

Jim Holcomb wrote

> That's what I'm talking about Gray - your just full of shit.

No, you're just not listening real well. I'll try to help.

> You don't think something as simple as a console dangling creates drag?

Kind of depends on what and where the console is, doesn't it. Mines on a
short hose, just like your guage. In fact, it's clipped to my left hip D
ring, just like your guage. It's in the shadow of my left arm, just like
your guage. Care to bet on how significant the difference in its drag is
from the drag your guage creates? Want to compare it to the drag your light
creates?

> t doesn't take a fucking study to figure that out. 50/50 at a 160 stop?
That will
> fucking kill you - you idiot.

Glad you agree. That's exactly what Mike said . . . first. You asked about
50/50 on deep stops without defining what a deep stop was. Mike responded
it was a good way to ensure you didn't have to do any more deep stops . . .
.ever. He defined deep stop in the process.

> Every one talks about how you attempt to twist the words of whoever's
posting and
> no it's not just Farmer.

The normal process for joining a group is to watch for a while, learn how
people communicate and learn how to understand what you are reading before
you jump all over those you don't understand very well. You have skipped
this step and, unfortunately, have missed more than one point simply because
you did not understand. That doesn't make you a bad person, but continuing
to make the same mistake does say something about your decision making
processes.

> Well twist this asshole . . .

Childish name calling. This will not further your cause.

> And for the record, I have no leader! I happen to believe that diving is
a
> dangerous sport and can be done safely through education and proper
> training.

So do we.

> I believe the "team" is the dive.

We don't.

> I believe the use of more and more computers have led to the lack of
planning in
> more and more dive activities both recreational and technical.

I believe that constant preaching about how safe diving is has led to the
lack of planning in more and more dive activities, both recreational and
technical. I believe that people who will not think for themselves or can
not think for themselves are a danger to themselves and that there are a
fair number of them following the DIR lead simply because someone who is a
good diver (George) says it like he was giving the sermon on the mount. I
believe a computer is a tool that can make some diving safer and easier and
can't be used for some diving at all. I believe it's up to the individual
diver to determine which dive is which.

This coming Sunday, I'll be diving in the Tortugas. I'll be doing 6 or 7
dives a day for three days in EAN32. I won't know where the bottom is until
just before each dive and, since I'll be hunting over variable bottom, won't
know how deep I'll be, when, or for how long. I'll have to decide on the
fly, balancing my purpose (hunting) against my safety. Would you care to
try this without a computer? Me neither. On the other hand, I wouldn't
like to try a WKPP cave dive without a lot of planing and wouldn't even
consider using a computer for one.

> I believe the level of training being produced by most training agencies
is
> insufficient.

I damned sure agree with you on this one. So do lots of others in this
forum.

> I believe more and more divers without any expertise in a given area are
> advocating unsafe practices.

So do we. It's just that we believe a lot of them are preaching the DIR
party line. It's not that we're blind to the rest of the clueless, it's
just that the DIR group has made themselves such an easy target. DIR
advocates have spent at least 2 of the last 3 years telling everyone that
the DIR gear configuration is the best configuration for every kind of
diving anyone, anywhere ever has or ever will do. Are you surprised we've
turned the DIR curse word "Stroke" into a joke on you?

> And, finally, I believe people like you and Farmer cloud the
> horizon to the point that divers who really want to learn something on a
> forum such as this - don't.

Stick around a while. You'll find that nobody can come even close to that
level of control of this group . . . including you.

> And to you "chilly" - you dare call me a pompous ass and in the same
sentence say
> I'm not credible because I'm a newbie on rec.scuba.

If the shoe fits . . .

> Oh, and BTW, Gray - on the 50/50 question - I asked you what you thought -
I
> never expressed an opinion - contrary to what you thought you read. I
have
> yet to find the advantage of a 50/50 deco gas of more than just a couple
> minutes in the dives I have done.

Jim, please stick around. You're off to a bad start, but I've read enough
of your techlist postings to believe that you can turn that around. Learn
to ignore the jabs and the professional flamers and read not for what you
can disagree with, but rather for what you can agree with and, perhaps even
for what you might learn from. When your opinion differs, don't condemn
anyone for the difference, seek to understand its source. As often as not,
you'll find that there really is little or no difference, only
misunderstanding and, when the differences are real, that they are the kind
of differences that should be as individual as the divers who hold them.

Lee

[Suds]

That was just too good! Thanks for the laugh. C|;^{)

Suds

--
In Four States: Texas, Ohio, Georgia, and Arkansas, it is illegal to sell a
vibrator. Yet in all of these states, a person can easily purchase a
handgun. I've never heard of anyone committing mass murder with a vibrator!

--From "The Vagina Monologues"

"chilly" <sla...@home.com> wrote in message
news:WE1c7.54634$sM.14...@news2.rdc1.ab.home.com...

[John Francis]

On Wed, 08 Aug 2001 03:00:10 GMT, mike gray <oxm...@worldnet.att.net>
wrote:

>Lee Bell wrote:

I believe in the early days one simply cleaned up after it, but with
the advent of modern technology one can avail oneself of wonderful
conveniences like catheters and sophisticated meds.

[Lee Bell]

George wrote

> I quite enjoy some of the interplay. Its quality improves dramatically
however
> when Mr. Farmer is absent. That applies to techdiver and rec.scuba.

I'm certainly with you on this one. I blocked him long ago. For some
reason, the block didn't stick on the techlist. His best work there are his
cowardly attacks on those he could not bully here . . . and his brown
nosing.

Lee

[John Francis]

On Wed, 08 Aug 2001 02:59:54 GMT, "chilly" <sla...@home.com> wrote:

>Your quick, I don't usually admire that in a man, but in this case I'm
>willing to make an exception. :^)
>

Thank you, I think. But I can't really take credit. I just happened to
still be on line. 8)

[Lee Bell]

You weren't left out. You were specifically mentioned.

Lee

Dan Bracuk <bra...@axxent.ca> wrote in message
news:5f689eea.0108...@posting.google.com...

> "Suds" <pa...@home.com> wrote
> > Old Farmer John has been over on the tech list whining about you and
Popeye
> > so expect a few more of those idiots to come over here looking for a
fight.
>
> I feel so left out.
>

> Dan Bracuk
> Toronto, Canada
> Warning - Dan Volker thinks my opinions kill people.
> Best of Rec.Scuba http://www.chaoticarts.com/~scuba/

[chilly]

Wouldn't that be "like he was giving the sermon off of the back of Tom
Mount?"

Lee Bell <lee...@ix.netcom.com> wrote in message news:9kqa35$
(snip)> good diver (George) says it like he was giving the sermon on the
mount. (snip)

[Lee Bell]

I'm really going to hate leaving all this fun behind to spend a few days
underwater, but someone has to do it. I'll share details when I return.

Lee

[John Francis]

On Wed, 08 Aug 2001 02:55:26 GMT, mike gray <oxm...@worldnet.att.net>
wrote:

>
>

>> REc.scuba has a couple of anti- DIR people with huge amounts of time on
>> their hands, and an axe to grind against any DIR idea or person. Mike Gray
>> is one, Dan Brakuk is another.
>
>But at least he spelled my name right. HAHA.
>
>m

Don't be too quick to guffaw, matey. Anyone will tell ya that Mike's a
more common name.

[chilly]

I'm not really gonna have to explain another one to ya, am I?

Oh, wait . . . never mind. ;^)

John Francis <johnf...@sympatico.ca> wrote in message

news:3b70aca2....@news1.on.sympatico.ca...

[chilly]

Thanks Lee, for everything.

Have a great time and we'll look forward to hearing all about it when you
get back.

Lee Bell <lee...@ix.netcom.com> wrote in message

news:9kqagh$hod$1...@slb2.atl.mindspring.net...

[John Francis]

On Tue, 7 Aug 2001 23:19:07 -0400, "Lee Bell" <lee...@ix.netcom.com>
wrote:

>I'm really going to hate leaving all this fun behind to spend a few days
>underwater, but someone has to do it. I'll share details when I return.
>
>Lee
>
>

Hey. Have fun and keep safe.

[John Francis]

Jeez. Ya had me worried for a second.

[mike gray]

Jim Holcomb wrote:
>
> That's what I'm talking about Gray - your just full of shit.

Please, Jim, this is rec.scuba, not that lowlife group. It's "you're
just full of shit."

> You don't
> think something as simple as a console dangling creates drag?

Woops! Where did that dangling console come from?

> 50/50 at a 160 stop? That will
> fucking kill you - you idiot.

Lemme see, the question posed by you was " Do you find that a 50/50 gas
on deep stops makes a notable difference in your overall deco time?" My
response, that it would eliminate ever having to do a deco stop again,
clearly went way over yer head. What that means is, that will fucking
kill you - you idiot. Get it? If yer dead, you never do another deco
stop? See, "eliminate ever having to do a deco stop again" is just my
attempt to be clever. I don't hang with those tough-talkin,
tough-walkin, wannabes over there on your group, so I just don't get the
format for answering the questions. I'll try to stick to monosyllabic
responses from here on out.

> Every one talks about how you attempt to

> twist the words of whoever's posting and no it's not just Farmer. Well
> twist this asshole - did you NOT say anything I quoted you as saying above.

Clue: Go to first post. High light quote. Click Edit. Click Copy. (I'm
sorry bout the two syllable words. Get help) Go back to post. Put blinky
where you want quote. Click Edit. Click Paste.

> And for the record, I have no leader! I happen to believe that diving is a
> dangerous sport and can be done safely through education and proper

> training. I believe the "team" is the dive. I believe the use of more and

> more computers have led to the lack of planning in more and more dive

> activities both recreational and technical. I believe the level of training
> being produced by most training agencies is insufficient. I believe more

> and more divers without any expertise in a given area are advocating unsafe

> practices. And, finally, I believe people like you and Farmer cloud the

> horizon to the point that divers who really want to learn something on a
> forum such as this - don't.

Well, I believe you are wrong on every count.

(snip the chilly harangue.)

> Oh, and BTW, Gray - on the 50/50 question - I asked you what you thought - I
> never expressed an opinion - contrary to what you thought you read. I have
> yet to find the advantage of a 50/50 deco gas of more than just a couple
> minutes in the dives I have done.

Okey dokey. Here's the cut and paste:

> Do you find that a 50/50 gas on deep stops makes a notable difference in your
> overall deco time?

Another trick question? Hell, 50/50 on a deep stop would eliminate the
need to ever deco again.

For a diver, you sure do dance well.

m

[mike gray]

Have a great trip dood.

m

[mike gray]

chilly wrote:
>
> You wouldn't a thought I'dda had to do that to a guy with his hand up my
> skirt now would ya?

The punch line is, "What's in the sock?"

Alternate punch line is, "How does that puppet stand at attention so
long?"

[chilly]

I thought someone was going to ask why I was so cranky, if some guy had his
hand up my skirt.

Punch line: wasn't wiggling his thumb the right way

mike gray <oxm...@worldnet.att.net> wrote in message
news:3B70B3F8...@worldnet.att.net...

[mike gray]

Jim Holcomb wrote:
>
> Lee -
> What you don't understand is his configuration is not nearly as important to
> me as his attitude is. As I've said before, the DIR advocates have been
> painted with a broad brush by people like Gray.

Lemme point out something to you my sweet little puppydog.

I have never started a DIR rant. Never. Not once. But I seldom shy from
jumping right in when some twit starts with the usual DIR crap. Like the
rest of the lemmings over at George Hamilton IV's place, ya come here
with the big pitch but the snake oil is just colored water. Again. I
keep my responses in a Drafts file, use em again. And again. I can count
on DIR to never come up with anything new.

I'm sick to death of "streamlining", and you use the term incorrectly.
Give me some drag numbers.

I'm sick to death of "yer gonna die". DIR has had zero effect on safety,
and promotes things I consider unsafe.

I'm sick to death of yer trashmouthing people that disagree with you.

I'm sick to death of yer promoting a bunch of tired old ideas and
antique gear.

I'm sick to death of yer assumption that every new diver is an idiot.

And the way you treat yer dead makes me puke.

How's that for attitude?

This here is rec.scuba. I am unimpressed by what you smoke at yer deep
stop. I'd be real impressed if you could id that white rock burrowing
tunicate that's got me stumped. Wanna give it a try?

And I'm sick to death of Hamilton IV's sock puppets running over here
trying to impress us with their faux-tech expertise and the doofuses
can't even tell the difference between a bluebell and a painted. That
really pisses me off. Go learn a little about diving.

m

[mike gray]

Suds wrote:
>
> Here's the first turn. Everyone hold up their hands and scream.

***** (five stars)

[chilly]

Sigh . .

That was beautiful.

mike gray <oxm...@worldnet.att.net> wrote in message

news:3B70BD2D...@worldnet.att.net...

[Suds]

Oh no, here is turn number two followed by a plunge into the abyss.

Listen, newbie, this whole "drag" issue has been discussed on this group ad
nauseam. Apparently I must be the first to tell you that your "intuition"
is irrelevant as far as this subject is concerned. Fluid Dynamics is an
extremely complicated field of study involving *a lot* of advanced
mathematics; things like non-linear, third order, differential equations
that can not be solved, only approximated through the use of large amounts
of computing power. As a mechanical engineer, I had to spend
a very hard semester studying it. To keep it short but within your real of
comprehension, the human body in scuba gear is so un-aerodynamic that
everything behind the mask will fall into what is technically called "the
turbulent boundary layer." Within the turbulent boundary you can hang
anything you want, even a parachute, without effecting the overall drag.

Don't you just love that sinking feeling in your stomach as you go down
those big drops?

Suds

--
In Four States: Texas, Ohio, Georgia, and Arkansas, it is illegal to sell a
vibrator. Yet in all of these states, a person can easily purchase a
handgun. I've never heard of anyone committing mass murder with a vibrator!

--From "The Vagina Monologues"

"Jim Holcomb" <scub...@earthlink.net> wrote in message
news:3g1c7.19068$t41.4...@newsread2.prod.itd.earthlink.net...
> That's what I'm talking about Gray - your just full of shit. You don't
> think something as simple as a console dangling creates drag? It doesn't
> take a fucking study to figure that out. 50/50 at a 160 stop? That will
> fucking kill you - you idiot. Every one talks about how you attempt to

> twist the words of whoever's posting and no it's not just Farmer. Well
> twist this asshole - did you NOT say anything I quoted you as saying
above.

> And for the record, I have no leader! I happen to believe that diving is
a
> dangerous sport and can be done safely through education and proper
> training. I believe the "team" is the dive. I believe the use of more
and
> more computers have led to the lack of planning in more and more dive
> activities both recreational and technical. I believe the level of
training
> being produced by most training agencies is insufficient. I believe more
> and more divers without any expertise in a given area are advocating
unsafe
> practices. And, finally, I believe people like you and Farmer cloud the
> horizon to the point that divers who really want to learn something on a

> forum such as this - don't. And to you "chilly" - you dare call me a

pompous
> ass and in the same sentence say I'm not credible because I'm a newbie on

> rec.scuba. That's a charm! A real charm! Talk about pompous!

> Oh, and BTW, Gray - on the 50/50 question - I asked you what you thought -
I
> never expressed an opinion - contrary to what you thought you read. I
have
> yet to find the advantage of a 50/50 deco gas of more than just a couple
> minutes in the dives I have done.
>

> Jim Holcomb

> "mike gray" <oxm...@worldnet.att.net> wrote in message

> news:3B708B43...@worldnet.att.net...
> > Jim Holcomb wrote:
> > >
> > > I'm here to see what the hell Gray stands for.
> >
> > I'm impressed. Glad you're here. Take notes.
> >
> > > After
> > > reading his responses to my questions - it sounds to me like Gray got
a
> good
> > > spanking by a DIR diver in his previous life.
> >
> > Not hardly. My previous life was long before DIR bloomed from the manure
> > pile.
> >
> > > He refers to "team integrity"
> > > as a "slick" phrase. He refers to "streamlining" as a good
"advertising
> > > gimmick". He states that the dangers of deep air are "vastly
> overrated". He
> > > thinks computers are not being relied on enough when half the people
out
> > > there can't read tables. He apparently doesn't know jack shit about
> deep
> > > stops and 50/50 deco.
> >
> > So educate me. Tell me how "team integrity" differs from the age old
> > buddy system. Lay some fearsome drag numbers on me. What is the
> > incidence of problems as a result of deep air? Tell me how forty year
> > old technology beats tables-on-the-fly, or why Buehlmann developed
> > computer models first, then put them in tables for dummies. And explain
> > the advantage of 50/50 at the 160 foot stop.
> >
> > Before you talk about who knows jack shit, put yer brain in gear. If you
> > can get yer fearless leader's permission to do so.
> >
> > > It amazes me completely that people are willing to be a sockpuppet for
> this
> > > moron.
> >
> > Look around. The sock puppets here were all sent over from the DIR/GUE
> > groups. If you actually believe anyone on rec.scuba is my sock puppet...
> > Well, OK, John Francis is my sock puppet. And maybe Lee Bell. And
> > Volker, he's my fave sock puppet.
> >
> > > He brags that he's a stroke. Does he know the definition of a
> > > stroke? Do you?
> >
> > Apparently you do not. Do a little research and you'll see why I'm proud
> > to call myself a Stroke. Start here: http://www.divegirl.com/diw.html
> >
> > > I'm not trying to pick a bunch of shit with everybody on
> > > here - but some of you need to think for yourselves.
> >
> > We all need to think for ourselves. Some do. They are called Strokes.
> >
> > > You got a moron like Gray
> >
> > Aha! There's that sock puppet talk! Can't you guys come up with
> > something original?
> >
> > > degrading a philosophy he apparently knows nothing about and, on the
> > > other side, you have DIR "advocates" arguing about something they
> apparently
> > > don't know anything about.
> >
> > Strokes on the left of me, DIR on the right. Stuck in the middle with
> > you.
> >
> > > Why don't some of you shut up the bullshit and
> > > discuss the issues, debate the issues, ask some questions, answer some
> > > questions and quit hopping on the first wagon that's being driven by
> someone
> > > with a cute one-liner.
> >
> > Actually, that's been going on all along over here. Why don't you can
> > the bullshit and join in?
> >
> > > Either you're a diver or you're not. Either you
> > > believe in something or you don't. I hear all this crap about DIR
> divers
> > > not being able to think for ourselves - well, that's bullshit. It's
> thinking
> > > for ourselves that led us to DIR and safer diving. Maybe some others
> ought
> > > to get their head out of their ass instead of lining up behind morons.
> >
> > Line up behind DIR and get yer head stuck in some egomaniac's ass? No
> > thanks. Rather have my head in my own ass if forced to make the choice.
> >
> > With profound respect
> > m
> >
>
>

[Ross Bagley]

In article <kI1c7.4484$nb4.4...@newsread1.prod.itd.earthlink.net>,
Jim Holcomb <scub...@earthlink.net> wrote:

[...snip...]

>What you don't understand is his configuration is not nearly as
>important to me as his attitude is.

My take on Mike's attitude is that he doesn't do high risk dives,
he will try new ideas out and judge them for himself, and he's
been open water diving for an awfully long time.

So, to sum it up, Mike's attitude is:

Who're you again?

(I'm fairly certain I'll be corrected if I'm wrong :)

Regards,
Ross

BTW, I'm another one of those divers who has learned a huge amount
about DIR from Dan V., websites, and a few local friends who have
taken GUE classes. Now I dive a rec kit that looks an awful lot like
a DIR kit. The most appropriate descriptive term appears to be
DIR-Like.

-- Ross Bagley & Associates http://rossbagley.com/rba
"We don't just write software, we help you write software better!"

[Suds]

Forget it, he's already snoring. Are vibrators illegal up there? C|;^{)

--
In Four States: Texas, Ohio, Georgia, and Arkansas, it is illegal to sell a
vibrator. Yet in all of these states, a person can easily purchase a
handgun. I've never heard of anyone committing mass murder with a vibrator!

--From "The Vagina Monologues"

"chilly" <sla...@home.com> wrote in message
news:Z42c7.55134$sM.14...@news2.rdc1.ab.home.com...

[Clifford Beshers]

recs...@floridacaves.com (Michael Blitch) writes:

> effectuated

Coke alert, please.
<g>

--
Clifford Beshers

[chilly]

Why would I need a vibrator? I've got MG's hand up my skirt, according to
the new guy.

Suds <pa...@home.com> wrote in message
news:UC3c7.19965$c8.55...@news1.denver1.co.home.com...

[Suds]

Hey, I can feel for you man, I'm packing my bags for Maui as we write.
C|;^{)

Suds

--
In Four States: Texas, Ohio, Georgia, and Arkansas, it is illegal to sell a
vibrator. Yet in all of these states, a person can easily purchase a
handgun. I've never heard of anyone committing mass murder with a vibrator!

--From "The Vagina Monologues"

"Lee Bell" <lee...@ix.netcom.com> wrote in message
news:9kqagh$hod$1...@slb2.atl.mindspring.net...

[Suds]

But isn't Mike kinda old and arthritic???... C|;^{)

Suds

--
In Four States: Texas, Ohio, Georgia, and Arkansas, it is illegal to sell a
vibrator. Yet in all of these states, a person can easily purchase a
handgun. I've never heard of anyone committing mass murder with a vibrator!

--From "The Vagina Monologues"

"chilly" <sla...@home.com> wrote in message

news:qK3c7.55289$sM.14...@news2.rdc1.ab.home.com...

[chilly]

I thought he was "streamlined" myself but I can only see his wrist from
here.

Suds <pa...@home.com> wrote in message

news:7S3c7.19978$c8.55...@news1.denver1.co.home.com...

[Vinnie the Bullet]

Jim, before you come in here spouting off and sounding like a complete
moron, make sure you are charging at the right windmill.

It is people like you - that are so fucking insecure that they have to
flame anyone who dares criticize DIR - that make me embarrassed to be
associated with that group.

Stick to techdiver. Mike's opinions deal solely with recreational diving,
as he himself has said many a time. And I've dived with him, and he's a
pretty damn good diver.

I'd rather dive with him, than with 10 of you DIR-bible-thumping idiots.
And now, because I am still not sleepy, I will respond to your posts one
by one, b/c Mike is probably too damn busy laughing at you.

Jim Holcomb (scub...@earthlink.net) wrote:
: Fact is, Suds, Farmer has been over on the techdiver list catching hell from
: me because I don't like his posting method and he doesn't have enough
: experience in the area he advocates. I equally don't like Gray for the same
: reasons. If you actually subscribe to techdiver than tell the whole truth.
: He's whining because I'm on his ass and I'm not over here on rec. scuba to
: take up for him. I'm here to see what the hell Gray stands for. After

: reading his responses to my questions - it sounds to me like Gray got a good
: spanking by a DIR diver in his previous life.

After reading your damn posts, it sounds to me that you dont have a
fucking clue what you are talking about.

: He refers to "team integrity"

: as a "slick" phrase. He refers to "streamlining" as a good "advertising
: gimmick". He states that the dangers of deep air are "vastly overrated". He
: thinks computers are not being relied on enough when half the people out
: there can't read tables. He apparently doesn't know jack shit about deep
: stops and 50/50 deco.

a) Just b/c he hasnt answered you doesnt mean he doesnt know. Dont
presume too much about your importance in the grand scheme of things.

b) Does the phrase "recreational diving" mean anything to you?

c) I will bet $100 that Mike has forgotten more about streamlining and
drag than you ever knew.

: It amazes me completely that people are willing to be a sockpuppet for this
: moron. He brags that he's a stroke. Does he know the definition of a
: stroke? Do you?

Do you? Please go ahead and enlighten us what you think the definition of
stroke is.

Hint: it refers to an unsafe diver in a SPECIFIC CONTEXT. Dont believe
me? Do a google search for Dan Volker's posts.

: I'm not trying to pick a bunch of shit with everybody on
: here - but some of you need to think for yourselves. You got a moron like
: Gray degrading a philosophy he apparently knows nothing about and, on the

: other side, you have DIR "advocates" arguing about something they apparently
: don't know anything about.

Idiot, if you bothered to read before yapping, you'd know that Mike isnt
against the specific recommendations of DIR but the approach of some
loonies that seem to think blind adherence to DIR gear guidelines makes
them a good diver.

: Why don't some of you shut up the bullshit and

: discuss the issues, debate the issues, ask some questions, answer some
: questions and quit hopping on the first wagon that's being driven by someone
: with a cute one-liner.

OH thank the fucking gods, we have Jim fucking Holcomb deigning to come
here and rescue us from the abysmal pits into which we have fallen.

Do you have any idea what a preening wanker you sound like?

: Either you're a diver or you're not. Either you

: believe in something or you don't. I hear all this crap about DIR divers
: not being able to think for ourselves - well, that's bullshit. It's thinking
: for ourselves that led us to DIR and safer diving. Maybe some others ought
: to get their head out of their ass instead of lining up behind morons.

Go fuck yourself. Condescending, know-it-all twat, with your "you all
need to do this" and "blah blah led US to DIR." Who is this mythical
"us" of whom you speak?

I am quite close to being DIR, and let me spell it out to you, bubba: you
dont speak for me. You are the type of loudmouthed, blundering buffoon
that gives DIR a bad name: running into a forum and spouting off without
knowing your head from your arse.

Do us all a favor: FUCK OFF. We dont need you coming here to save us.

--
Vandit Kalia GO FLYERS!!!!!
Why didnt you just stab it with your dive knife?

[Steve]

in article 9kqa35$6ec$1...@nntp9.atl.mindspring.net, Lee Bell at
lee...@ix.netcom.com wrote on 8/7/01 8:12 PM:

> This coming Sunday, I'll be diving in the Tortugas. I'll be doing 6 or 7
> dives a day for three days in EAN32.

That's alot of EAN diving in three days. Are you calculating the O2 clock on
the fly in accordance with the NOAA/DSAT table or do you use a computer?

Steve

[Vinnie the Bullet]

Lee Bell (lee...@ix.netcom.com) wrote:
: They're complaining about Dan Bracuk too, but who's counting. On ther other
: hand, Jim Holcomb appears to be a voice of reason, perhaps salvagable if he
: sticks around long enough to comprehend and understand that we're not better
: or worse, just different. We might even dig up a thing of two for him to
: take back to his tech associates. They might listen to one of their own and
: he might listen to us with a more open mind . . . I hope.

Cant we just burn him instead?

[chilly]

Man, I'll tell you what, for a bunch of idiot strokes, we've sure got some
"teamwork" happening here tonight! LOL

Uh oh, sorry George, is it OK, if I use the word "we've"?

Vinnie the Bullet <vka...@netaxs.com> wrote in message
news:9kqie2$8...@netaxs.com...

[Vinnie the Bullet]

George (ghmorrisr...@telocity.com) wrote:
: I really must ask Mr. Gray if I can dive with him one day. Several people now
: have relayed how streamlined he is. I would like to see it myself as
: despite the DIR rig I tend to be a bit more from the "bull in the china
: shop" school.

Try doing a dive while carrying less than 4-5 tanks :P

: Hmmm. I think I still have some trips left on my Splashdown cards from
: the New Years sale.

Hey, try to do it around the 1st week of September. I'm going to be
there as well, and it'd be nice to meet more people from rec.scuba.

[Vinnie the Bullet]

chilly (sla...@home.com) wrote:
: I thought he was "streamlined" myself but I can only see his wrist from
: here.

You're having too much fun with this, missy.

[chilly]

:^)

And you are adding to my enjoyment immensely. Keep up the good work.

Vinnie the Bullet <vka...@netaxs.com> wrote in message

news:9kqjfa$8...@netaxs.com...

[Suds]

Well that would be a lot of fun, perhaps we should copy this entire thread
and send it over to the tech list. Think of it as one of those WWF, made
for tv events. Chilly and Old Salt could be the ring girls! C|;;^{)

Suds

--
In Four States: Texas, Ohio, Georgia, and Arkansas, it is illegal to sell a
vibrator. Yet in all of these states, a person can easily purchase a
handgun. I've never heard of anyone committing mass murder with a vibrator!

--From "The Vagina Monologues"

"Vinnie the Bullet" <vka...@netaxs.com> wrote in message
news:9kqij1$8...@netaxs.com...

[chilly]

Watch yourself there, LB.

Suds <pa...@home.com> wrote in message

news:zl4c7.19985$c8.55...@news1.denver1.co.home.com...

[chilly]

George <ghmorrisr...@telocity.com> wrote in message
news:qgk1ntc8l9jkkqlhk...@4ax.com...
> On Wed, 08 Aug 2001 05:31:19 GMT, "chilly" <sla...@home.com> shaped the
> electrons to say:
>
> --Man, I'll tell you what, for a bunch of idiot strokes, we've sure got
some
> --"teamwork" happening here tonight! LOL
>
> I hope there aren't too many of "us" that are strokes, if you use the
"unsafe
> attitude" definition.

I totally agree with you there and in my comment I was paraphrasing what Jim
had thought of rec.scubans in general.

>On top of that, I noticed a few people on the thread that
> are about as DIR as they come.

And still they took exception to his post. Go figure.

> --
> --Uh oh, sorry George, is it OK, if I use the word "we've"?
>
> "We" had a pretty good cross section posting tonight.

Ya, I noticed that a number of people felt comfortable speaking for the
group.

>Amazing message count in a
> very short period... Reminded me a bit of the effect you get if you kick
an ant
> hill. <g>

LOL, it's been a while since we've, oops, rec.scuba has had a real good
"incoming" like this one.

Just wait until tomorrow when everyone gets back to their office computers.
'Course maybe now it's all been said. hee, hee

[chilly]

chilly <sla...@home.com> wrote in message news:PI4c7.55401>replied to the
following comment by George: >

> >
> > I hope there aren't too many of "us" that are strokes, if you use the
> "unsafe
> > attitude" definition.

with:

>
> I totally agree with you there and in my comment I was paraphrasing what
Jim
> had thought of rec.scubans in general.

and now adds:

However, it occurs to me that there may still be some debate as to *exactly*
what constitutes an unsafe attitude. I think I know what DIR considers an
unsafe attitude which may not be the same thing as someone, oh say, like
Mike Gray considers an unsafe attitude.

[NE333RO]

>Fact is, Suds, Farmer has been over on the techdiver list catching hell from
>me because I don't like his posting method and he doesn't have enough
>experience in the area he advocates.

And he's an idiot. He doesn't think. He just parrots the party line.

I equally don't like Gray for the same
>reasons.

Your questions to Grey showed that you know nothing about his views. I find
it interesting that you came on here to demand answers to questions that any
regular on here already knew his views on.

If you actually subscribe to techdiver than tell the whole truth.
>He's whining because I'm on his ass and I'm not over here on rec. scuba to
>take up for him.

So? At this point, what makes you think we have any more respect for what
you have to say than we do for what he has to say? You have no bona fides
either.

I'm here to see what the hell Gray stands for. After
>reading his responses to my questions - it sounds to me like Gray got a good
>spanking by a DIR diver in his previous life.

No you aren't. You are here to thump your chest. If you were really
interested, you would have lurked a bit, researched alot, and THEN asked your
questions. Problem is, by then you would already have the answers.
By the way, I may not always agree with everything Grey has to say, but I
have yet to see him get spanked by anybody. I don't see you being able to do it
either.

He refers to "team integrity"
>as a "slick" phrase.

Much slicker than the buddy system.

He refers to "streamlining" as a good "advertising
>gimmick".

Hey, we've already laid out how you can easily prove your claims. An
anchored boat, in a current, some rope and a fish scale. Not terribly high tech
but if your gear setup is SO much better than everyone elses, it should be
sufficient.

> He states that the dangers of deep air >are "vastly overrated".

He and I tend to disagree on this one. It's not, however, the instant death
you people advocate either.

He
>thinks computers are not being relied on enough when half the people out
>there can't read tables.

I don't disagree that people need to know their tables, neither does Mike
(in case you really care about his answers). I do get a kick out of it when you
guys condem computers that can compute your deco on the fly, and yet beat your
chest about figuring out your deco on a home computer and then using it on a
dive that only barely resembles the one you planned.

He apparently doesn't know jack shit about deep
>stops and 50/50 deco.

Read for comprehension.

>It amazes me completely that people are willing to be a sockpuppet for this
>moron.

Hahahahahehehehehehehehahahaha. How can you say that with a straight face?

He brags that he's a stroke. Does he know the definition of a
>stroke? Do you?

Sorry, but you aren't on the tech list any longer. Our definition differs a
bit over here.

> I'm not trying to pick a bunch of shit with everybody on
>here - but some of you need to think for yourselves.

<snip of yet another DIR rant>

No, you are just over here spreading the gospel according to Trey. Damn,
next you'll be knocking on doors.

[Michael Wolf]

"chilly" <sla...@home.com> wrote in
<eA2c7.55244$sM.14...@news2.rdc1.ab.home.com>:

Let me guess: tequila and Macy Gray?

--
Michael Wolf

-----

Life's a beach and then you dive

remove stopspam to reply

[NE333RO]

>>Fact is, Suds, Farmer has been over on the techdiver list catching hell from
>>me because I don't like his posting method and he doesn't have enough
>>experience in the area he advocates.

And he's an idiot. He doesn't think. He just parrots the party line.

> I equally don't like Gray for the same
>>reasons.

Your questions to Gray showed that you know nothing about his views. I

find
it interesting that you came on here to demand answers to questions that any
regular on here already knew his views on.

> If you actually subscribe to techdiver than tell the whole truth.
>>He's whining because I'm on his ass and I'm not over here on rec. scuba to
>>take up for him.

So? At this point, what makes you think we have any more respect for what
you have to say than we do for what he has to say? You have no bona fides
either.

> I'm here to see what the hell Gray stands for. After
>>reading his responses to my questions - it sounds to me like Gray got a good
>>spanking by a DIR diver in his previous life.

No you aren't. You are here to thump your chest. If you were really
interested, you would have lurked a bit, researched alot, and THEN asked your
questions. Problem is, by then you would already have the answers.

By the way, I may not always agree with everything Gray has to say, but I

have yet to see him get "spanked" by anybody. I don't see you being able to do
it
either.

> He refers to "team integrity"
>>as a "slick" phrase.

Much slicker than "the buddy system".

> He refers to "streamlining" as a good "advertising
>>gimmick".

Hey, we've already laid out how you can easily prove your claims. An

anchored boat, in a current, some rope, and a fish scale. Not terribly high

[chilly]

Not this time, Sir. 100% no music, no tequila. Just me. Say, maybe I
should have had the Macy on?

Michael Wolf <michae...@teleatlasstopspam.com> wrote in message
news:Xns90F76FE...@134.222.94.13...

[chilly]

Sounded good right up to the end. What's your definition of an unsafe
activity?

George <ghmorrisr...@telocity.com> wrote in message

news:mq82ntkdeoljg6kh9...@4ax.com...
> On Wed, 08 Aug 2001 06:20:34 GMT, "chilly" <sla...@home.com> shaped the
> electrons to say:
>
> --
> --chilly <sla...@home.com> wrote in message news:PI4c7.55401>replied to
the
> --following comment by George: >
> --> >
> --> > I hope there aren't too many of "us" that are strokes, if you use
the
> --> "unsafe
> --> > attitude" definition.
> --
> --with:
> --
> -->
> --> I totally agree with you there and in my comment I was paraphrasing
what
> --Jim
> --> had thought of rec.scubans in general.
> --
> --and now adds:
> --
> --However, it occurs to me that there may still be some debate as to
*exactly*
> --what constitutes an unsafe attitude. I think I know what DIR considers
an
> --unsafe attitude which may not be the same thing as someone, oh say, like
> --Mike Gray considers an unsafe attitude.
>
> OK, how about this. DIR represents a packaged, proven system, that if
followed
> to the letter will let the participant engage in some quite extreme types
of
> diving with relative safety.
>
> Anyone can replicate part or all of the functionality of the DIR system if
they
> are prepared to invest time and effort into it. They can improve on DIR
for
> their own specific type of diving, but that effort is unlikely to
translate
> across all fields....
>
> Both DIR and other equipment configs can be stroke or non-stroke, as
without
> exception, attitude is more important than equipment. A safe diver will
not dive
> unsafe equipment regardless of its design, or engage in unsafe activities.

[Popeye]

>From: "Jim Holcomb" scub...@earthlink.net

Good questions from Jim. Good answers from Mike. Let's all play. I think at
this point that Jim may be savable, if we can open the closed mind he accuses
us of having. He does, in fact, wail on JF over on Techdiver. (Hmmm,-J-ack
-F-armer, -J-ason -F-aulkner, could be something, I don't know.)

>
>I already know what you are against.

Most of our animosity comes from the attitudes of the delivery boys. You
adopt a philosophy that is a mix of common sense, PADI OW, and old techniques,
very little of which is DIR original, and come over here drunk with
righteousness, telling us how we're way too stupid to think. We also love how
you insist you're obviously correct on things that are still open to debate,
and on assumptions you can't prove.

I've been a DIR advocate as long as I've been here. It's the people that are
the problem. I'm for any gimmick or fad that raises safety consciousness.

>So tell me, what is YOUR philosophy towards diving. Educate me.

I dive to relax and have fun. I'm a drift diver, and do some easy wreck
dives. I dive Nitrox, do an occasional deco, and am gravitating towards Cave 1
to advance my wreck penetration capabilities. Call myself Rec/Tec.

I rarely dive more than one day with the same buddy, and enjoy being paired
with newbies. That shoots team diving all to hell.

I'll dive just about anything. I got in water so bad last weekend that I
punted the dive after 9 minutes because my life was in immediate and specific
danger.

(Answer to your next question:Because it was there)

>I've got an open mind.

Not yet, you don't. You have a good intention, but have -completely- misread
the intentions of Rec.scuba regulars, I think because you arrived with
preconceived notions.

>What is your approach to gear configuration?

I recently got a BP/W-long hose set up. Got maybe thirty dives on it. I like
it because it's new, but for my type of diving, it's not clearly better than a
BP. Give me thirty more dives, and I'll let ya know.

Any way ya cut it, the BP/W/LH is clearly more complicated than a BC, and
harder to use.

Harder to carry off your back. I.E., to and from the boat.

Harder to adjust.

Harder to doff and don.

The long hose is a five star pain-in-the-ass.

Even Fearless Leader has posted that a long hose, of any length, may not be
necessary for OW diving.

>What is your approach to team integrity?

Where I dive, Team Integrity means paying for the round when it's your turn.

Really, team integrity means having the common sense to stay close to the
ball on days with bad surface viz, so the Captain can find your ass, and means
very little else.

You can do all the s-drills with your buddy that you want, it won't mean
squat when some other panicked diver, not your buddy, -rips- your mask and
primary from your face, without warning. And heads North.

How much training have you done for -that?-

>Do you believe streamlining of gear cuts drag?

I dunno, what's the drag on my BC, with a well stowed lift bag and reel,
compared to a dry suit, twin 104's, two stages, a cave reel the size of a
football, and the ever present Jedi Light Cannon?

And the hoses, don't forget the hoses.

That whole argument is ridicules. I'd be willing to bet several beers that
Mike Gray's kit is more streamlined than any possible DIR combination. His
custom weight system is cutting edge.

Also a factor: We drift dive. A little drag can help us in some situations.

>What are your views on diving deep on air?

To 120 or 130fsw? No problem. Wreck/Tec/Cave? No way.

On some dives, 180 would not be out of the question.

Gas mix should be considered for any dive over thirty feet, but the deep air
problem is grossly over blown, and as far as I can tell, the vast majority of
divers around the world still dive deep air, virtually without incident.

On a related subject, I think anyone who dives 1.4 on a non-working dive is
wasting bottom time.

>Do you believe a pony should be able to be handed off in an emergency?

In most cases, where I dive, anyone wearing a pony is subject to ridicule.

I thought you guys had stages and deco bottles?

>How do you feel about the over - reliance on computers?

My last trip was 12 dives, 4 boats in three days. A computer was essential,
tables were useless.

Still haven't figured the difference between printing them off a computer in
your den, and putting them in your pocket, or wearing said computer on your
wrist. Except the wrist computer knows what's going on underwater, and the den
computer doesn't.

A diver should know both. After 5 years and 500 dives, I sat in on a tables
class just last week.

Should>open water instructors be taking students on a tour of overhead
environments
>such as Ginnie?

Yes. Instructors should be in control of their students, and students should
be prepared for any environment that an instructor takes them to.

>What do you think of solo diving and why?

I solo dive for the same reason I drive 10 miles an hour faster when it
rains. For whatever the related reward. The risk is greater. It moves from
infinitesimal to relatively infinitesimal.

>What kind of>diving are you into?

Answered above.

>What are your views on using deep stops during deco?

They don't seem to affect me, but I've seen them make a big difference for
others. I'd probably incorporate them in 100+ dives.

>Do you believe O2 is better as a shallow deco gas or 80/20 and why?

I think NOAA100 is much better for hangovers. I frequently seem to be hung
over when I dive.

Do you>find that a 50/50 gas on deep stops makes a notable difference in your
>overall deco time?

Huh? Which DIR rule is that? Clearing the gene pool?

>What do you think about split fins in an overhead>environment - possible
entanglement hazard?

More than the slots in cinderblock fins? No. I don't like any split fins. But
my slitless, slotless Quattros are less of an entanglement issue than either of
the above.

>Jim Holcomb

Welcome to Rec.scuba.

Tune your argument for the recreational crowd, ditch the halo, and hang
around for a while.

Popeye

Having a bad day? You -could- look like this!
http://www.thecrusaderbbs.com/index2.html
Nice rug. HaHa L8R

[Popeye]

>From: bra...@axxent.ca (Dan Bracuk)

>
>"Suds" <pa...@home.com> wrote
>> Old Farmer John has been over on the tech list whining about you and Popeye
>> so expect a few more of those idiots to come over here looking for a fight.
>
>I feel so left out.
>
>Dan Bracuk
>Toronto, Canada

Maybe if you were more of an instigator.

[Popeye]

>From: "Jim Holcomb" scub...@earthlink.net
>Date: 8/7/01 10:14 PM Eastern Daylight Time
>Message-id: <3g1c7.19068$t41.4...@newsread2.prod.itd.earthlink.net>
>
>That's what I'm talking about Gray - your just full of shit. You don't
>think something as simple as a console dangling creates drag? It doesn't
>take a fucking study to figure that out. 50/50 at a 160 stop? That will
>fucking kill you - you idiot. Every one talks about how you attempt to
>twist the words of whoever's posting and no it's not just Farmer. Well
>twist this asshole - did you NOT say anything I quoted you as saying above.

It's when you degenerate to this, particularly when you're wrong, on multiple
counts, that you turn into a babbling asshole.

This is the DIR diver we know and love.

[Paul Schilter]

Jim,
Well according to DIR anyone who isn't DIR is a stroke diver. So based
on this narrow view and not subscribing to it, you get Team Stroke. The
mind is like a parachute it has to be open to work. Open minded isn't DIR.
I'm a recreation diver not a tech diver. DIR has some great ideas but not
all are perfect for rec divers. Team Stroke is a counter to DIR. We just
don't label a diver who doesn't subscribe to all of DIR's principles as a
stroke. We don't particularly disrespect DIR divers, we believe in personal
choice and safe diving. At least in my view of it.
Paul

"Jim Holcomb" <scub...@earthlink.net> wrote in message
news:Se%b7.18828$t41.3...@newsread2.prod.itd.earthlink.net...

> Fact is, Suds, Farmer has been over on the techdiver list catching hell
from
> me because I don't like his posting method and he doesn't have enough

> experience in the area he advocates. I equally don't like Gray for the
same
> reasons. If you actually subscribe to techdiver than tell the whole

truth.
> He's whining because I'm on his ass and I'm not over here on rec. scuba to

> take up for him. I'm here to see what the hell Gray stands for. After

> reading his responses to my questions - it sounds to me like Gray got a
good

> spanking by a DIR diver in his previous life. He refers to "team
integrity"
> as a "slick" phrase. He refers to "streamlining" as a good "advertising
> gimmick". He states that the dangers of deep air are "vastly overrated".
He

> thinks computers are not being relied on enough when half the people out

> there can't read tables. He apparently doesn't know jack shit about deep
> stops and 50/50 deco.

> It amazes me completely that people are willing to be a sockpuppet for
this

> moron. He brags that he's a stroke. Does he know the definition of a
> stroke? Do you? I'm not trying to pick a bunch of shit with everybody on

> here - but some of you need to think for yourselves. You got a moron like
> Gray degrading a philosophy he apparently knows nothing about and, on the
> other side, you have DIR "advocates" arguing about something they
apparently

> don't know anything about. Why don't some of you shut up the bullshit and

> discuss the issues, debate the issues, ask some questions, answer some
> questions and quit hopping on the first wagon that's being driven by
someone

> with a cute one-liner. Either you're a diver or you're not. Either you

> believe in something or you don't. I hear all this crap about DIR divers
> not being able to think for ourselves - well, that's bullshit. It's
thinking
> for ourselves that led us to DIR and safer diving. Maybe some others
ought
> to get their head out of their ass instead of lining up behind morons.
>

> Jim Holcomb

> "Suds" <pa...@home.com> wrote in message

> news:7zZb7.19096$c8.51...@news1.denver1.co.home.com...
> > Mike,

> >
> > Old Farmer John has been over on the tech list whining about you and
> Popeye
> > so expect a few more of those idiots to come over here looking for a
> fight.

> > (Would you like me to forward his posts? LOL) I didn't feel a need to
> warn
> > you since you can obviously take care of yourself. C|;^{)

> >
> >
> > Suds
> >
> > --
> > In Four States: Texas, Ohio, Georgia, and Arkansas, it is illegal to
sell
> a
> > vibrator. Yet in all of these states, a person can easily purchase a
> > handgun. I've never heard of anyone committing mass murder with a
> vibrator!
> >
> > --From "The Vagina Monologues"
> >

> > "Jim Holcomb" <scub...@earthlink.net> wrote in message
> > news:caXb7.3714$nb4.3...@newsread1.prod.itd.earthlink.net...
> > > I already know what you are against. So tell me, what is YOUR
philosophy
> > > towards diving. Educate me. I've got an open mind. What is your
> approach
> > > to gear configuration? What is your approach to team integrity? Do
you
> > > believe streamlining of gear cuts drag? What are your views on diving
> > deep
> > > on air? Do you believe a pony should be able to be handed off in an
> > > emergency? How do you feel about the over - reliance on computers?

> > Should
> > > open water instructors be taking students on a tour of overhead
> > environments

> > > such as Ginnie? What do you think of solo diving and why? What kind
of
> > > diving are you into? What are your views on using deep stops during
> deco?

> > > Do you believe O2 is better as a shallow deco gas or 80/20 and why?

Do
> > you
> > > find that a 50/50 gas on deep stops makes a notable difference in your

> > > overall deco time? What do you think about split fins in an overhead

> > > environment - possible entanglement hazard?
> > >

> > > Jim Holcomb
> > >
> > >
> >
> >
> >
>
>

[Paul Schilter]

Mike,
Now that's a classic.
Paul

"mike gray" <oxm...@worldnet.att.net> wrote in message

news:3B708B43...@worldnet.att.net...

> Strokes on the left of me, DIR on the right. Stuck in the middle with
> you.

> m

[Lee Bell]

Jim Holcomb wrote

I apologize in advance if I get this wrong. I haven't gotten the orignal
message yet and am responding to this out of context.

>Lee-
> > What you don't understand is his configuration is not nearly as
important
> > to me as his attitude is. As I've said before, the DIR advocates have
been
> > painted with a broad brush by people like Gray. I'm not a WKPP diver
and
> > I personally think GI3 is an asshole. Does that sound like the profile
of
> > the typical DIR diver that some would want you to believe?

I do understand. I always have. As it happens, I don't accept much of the
DIR philosophy because I long since abandoned much of it, particularly the
very close buddy team element. By preference, I'm a solo or same ocean
buddy diver and try to arrange to dive with those who have similar
preferences. That's not to say that I don't understand and agree with the
WKPP's way of doing what they do, it's just that I don't do what they do.

Between us, I also understand your reaction to Mike. What I think you have
missed, however, is that it is not Mike who painted DIR with a broad brush.
He's simply reacting to a long history of DIR and pseudo DIR advocates who
made a point of telling everyone that the DIR way, as they described it, was
not only the best way for everyone, it was the only way anyone who had an
ounce of sense or experience would dive. They then topped it off with their
stroke insult and their rule number 1, don't dive with strokes. Frankly,
even those of us who were bothering to pick the quality out of the mess got
quite tired of the attitude. It's no surprise that stroke, the insult,
turned into Stroke, the team.

> > I find that most opponents of the DIR philosophy don't believe in
anything in
> > particular. They just don't believe in DIR - be it personalities or
whatever. And
> > some of these opponents, for whatever reason, become bitter about it.

I think I've shared the reason. I also think that, in at least some cases,
you are underestimating people. Many don't believe in the DIR philosophy
all the time but understand and implement parts of it when they percieve it
to be important. I was just reading a trip report by a friend who just came
back from Cozumel and was pleasantly surprised to read about the hose
configuration he's using. It's pure DIR and not what he was using when we
met in Coz in 1999. The word is getting out because and in spite of its
detractors and, trust me, Mike is not the system's biggest detractor. In
fact, in his more lucid moments, he'll admit to liking bits and pieces of
the equipment and philosophy. Like most of us, however, he just doesn't
like someone trying to shove it down his throat, something that Jack Farmer
got burned for trying to do.

The more of your stuff I read, the more I'm glad you are here. Dir and
Hogarthian diving needs rational responses to overcome a long history of
irrational promotion. Just try to keep in mind that every time someone
prompts you to call them an asshole or to describe their conclusions as
bullshit, they've won and you've lost . . . except perhaps Dr. Black. We
all call him an asshole on occasion. As I recall, that's true on the
techlist too. 8^)

OK, guys and gals, I've got some work to do, so no more Rec.Scuba for at
least a couple of hours. Maybe Jim's original posts will reach me by then
and I'll be able to see if I've made a big or a little fool out of myself.

Lee

[Jack Farmer]

Jim;

1. I've not been whineing anywhere.
2. Never wanted or expected you or anyone to take up for me here or anyehere
not my thing at all.
3. I've never been arguing about DIR.

Safe Diving

L8R

Jim Holcomb wrote:

--
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[Jack Farmer]

Well Mike

You are getting better and better at PROVING him RIGHT about you.

hahah

Keep it up. YOU are willing his fight FOR HIM.

mike gray wrote:

> Jim Holcomb wrote:
> >
> > I'm here to see what the hell Gray stands for.
>

> I'm impressed. Glad you're here. Take notes.

>
> > After
> > reading his responses to my questions - it sounds to me like Gray got a good
> > spanking by a DIR diver in his previous life.
>

> Not hardly. My previous life was long before DIR bloomed from the manure
> pile.

>
> > He refers to "team integrity"
> > as a "slick" phrase. He refers to "streamlining" as a good "advertising
> > gimmick". He states that the dangers of deep air are "vastly overrated". He
> > thinks computers are not being relied on enough when half the people out
> > there can't read tables. He apparently doesn't know jack shit about deep
> > stops and 50/50 deco.
>

> So educate me. Tell me how "team integrity" differs from the age old
> buddy system. Lay some fearsome drag numbers on me. What is the
> incidence of problems as a result of deep air? Tell me how forty year
> old technology beats tables-on-the-fly, or why Buehlmann developed
> computer models first, then put them in tables for dummies. And explain
> the advantage of 50/50 at the 160 foot stop.
>
> Before you talk about who knows jack shit, put yer brain in gear. If you
> can get yer fearless leader's permission to do so.

>
> > It amazes me completely that people are willing to be a sockpuppet for this
> > moron.
>

> Look around. The sock puppets here were all sent over from the DIR/GUE
> groups. If you actually believe anyone on rec.scuba is my sock puppet...
> Well, OK, John Francis is my sock puppet. And maybe Lee Bell. And
> Volker, he's my fave sock puppet.

>
> > He brags that he's a stroke. Does he know the definition of a
> > stroke? Do you?
>

> Apparently you do not. Do a little research and you'll see why I'm proud
> to call myself a Stroke. Start here: http://www.divegirl.com/diw.html

>
> > I'm not trying to pick a bunch of shit with everybody on
> > here - but some of you need to think for yourselves.
>

> We all need to think for ourselves. Some do. They are called Strokes.

>
> > You got a moron like Gray
>

> Aha! There's that sock puppet talk! Can't you guys come up with
> something original?

>
> > degrading a philosophy he apparently knows nothing about and, on the
> > other side, you have DIR "advocates" arguing about something they apparently
> > don't know anything about.
>

> Strokes on the left of me, DIR on the right. Stuck in the middle with
> you.
>

> > Why don't some of you shut up the bullshit and
> > discuss the issues, debate the issues, ask some questions, answer some
> > questions and quit hopping on the first wagon that's being driven by someone
> > with a cute one-liner.
>

> Actually, that's been going on all along over here. Why don't you can
> the bullshit and join in?

>
> > Either you're a diver or you're not. Either you
> > believe in something or you don't. I hear all this crap about DIR divers
> > not being able to think for ourselves - well, that's bullshit. It's thinking
> > for ourselves that led us to DIR and safer diving. Maybe some others ought
> > to get their head out of their ass instead of lining up behind morons.
>

> Line up behind DIR and get yer head stuck in some egomaniac's ass? No
> thanks. Rather have my head in my own ass if forced to make the choice.
>
> With profound respect
> m

[Jack Farmer]

THIS type of shit was what I MEANT about it just goes on and on and on and on.

Welcome to rec.scuba.

L8R

Jim Holcomb wrote:

What inaccuracies?  I quoted Gray! Those were his words. And if you know who
I am from techdiver you would know that I WAS THE ONE busting Farmer's ass
on that list for spewing shit just like Gray does.
Wake up - you just want to yap.

Jim Holcomb

"chilly" <sla...@home.com> wrote in message
news:nP%b7.54379$sM.14...@news2.rdc1.ab.home.com...
> Who the f*ck do you think you are?  You don't know anything about anything
> that has been going on here for the past few years.  Your post is full of
> inaccuracies and assumptions.  If we wanted to hear what you had to say
> about it, we'd come over to techdiver and yank your chain.  So you came to
> find out what Mike Gray stands for,  huh?  Well, talk to him about it and
> quit trying to abuse everyone else over here that reads and posts to this
> board.  You pompous ass.  Over here, *you* are a newbie and haven't proven
> yourself to us.  I don't give a damn who you are over on techdiver. (and
> BTW, as an aside, I do know who you are over at techdiver)

>
> Jim Holcomb <scub...@earthlink.net> wrote in message

> news:Se%b7.18828$t41.3...@newsread2.prod.itd.earthlink.net...

> > Fact is, Suds, Farmer has been over on the techdiver list catching hell
> from
> > me because I don't like his posting method and he doesn't have enough
> > experience in the area he advocates.  I equally don't like Gray for the
> same
> > reasons.  If you actually subscribe to techdiver than tell the whole
> truth.
> > He's whining because I'm on his ass and I'm not over here on rec. scuba
to

> > take up for him.  I'm here to see what the hell Gray stands for.  After

> > reading his responses to my questions - it sounds to me like Gray got a
> good

> > spanking by a DIR diver in his previous life. He refers to "team

> integrity"
> > as a "slick" phrase.  He refers to "streamlining" as a good "advertising
> > gimmick".  He states that the dangers of deep air are "vastly
overrated".
> He
> > thinks computers are not being relied on enough when half the people out
> > there can't read tables.  He apparently doesn't know jack shit about
deep
> > stops and 50/50 deco.

> > It amazes me completely that people are willing to be a sockpuppet for
> this

> > moron.  He brags that he's a stroke.  Does he know the definition of a
> > stroke? Do you?  I'm not trying to pick a bunch of shit with everybody
on
> > here - but some of you need to think for yourselves.  You got a moron
like
> > Gray degrading a philosophy he apparently knows nothing about and, on

the
> > other side, you have DIR "advocates" arguing about something they
> apparently

> > don't know anything about.  Why don't some of you shut up the bullshit

and
> > discuss the issues, debate the issues, ask some questions, answer some
> > questions and quit hopping on the first wagon that's being driven by
> someone

> > with a cute one-liner. Either you're a diver or you're not.  Either you

> > believe in something or you don't.  I hear all this crap about DIR
divers
> > not being able to think for ourselves - well, that's bullshit. It's
> thinking
> > for ourselves that led us to DIR and safer diving.  Maybe some others
> ought
> > to get their head out of their ass instead of lining up behind morons.
> >

-- 
You Don't HAVE to be NUTS to be a SysAdmin./WebMaster. BUT it Helps! 

[Jack Farmer]

and SO the original questions get side tracked as per usual.

haha

mike gray wrote:

> chilly wrote:
> >
> > I love it when you're hot! :^P
>
> Oh, yeah, and chilly. chilly's my sock puppet, too.
>
> m

--
You Don't HAVE to be NUTS to be a SysAdmin./WebMaster. BUT it Helps!
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[Paul Schilter]

Lee,
Have a great time and good luck on the hunting.
Paul

"Lee Bell" <lee...@ix.netcom.com> wrote in message
news:9kqagh$hod$1...@slb2.atl.mindspring.net...
> I'm really going to hate leaving all this fun behind to spend a few days
> underwater, but someone has to do it. I'll share details when I return.
>
> Lee
>
>

[Paul Schilter]

Ne333ro,
Maybe they'll come out with their version of the "Watch Tower"
Paul

"NE333RO" <ne3...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:20010808040438...@ng-fv1.aol.com...

[Paul Schilter]

chilly,
He's diving deep again. ;-)
Paul

"chilly" <sla...@home.com> wrote in message

news:hT3c7.55292$sM.14...@news2.rdc1.ab.home.com...

[Paul Schilter]

George,
Or poke a hornet's nest. ;-)
Paul

"George" <ghmorrisr...@telocity.com> wrote in message

> "We" had a pretty good cross section posting tonight. Amazing message

[Paul Schilter]

Suds,
Good for you. Have a great time as well.
Paul

"Suds" <pa...@home.com> wrote in message

news:yQ3c7.19977$c8.55...@news1.denver1.co.home.com...
> Hey, I can feel for you man, I'm packing my bags for Maui as we write.

> C|;^{)
>
>
> Suds
>
> --
> In Four States: Texas, Ohio, Georgia, and Arkansas, it is illegal to sell
a
> vibrator. Yet in all of these states, a person can easily purchase a
> handgun. I've never heard of anyone committing mass murder with a
vibrator!
>
> --From "The Vagina Monologues"
>

[Paul Schilter]

Mike,
I guess you can't drink a coke while reading this thread.
Paul

"mike gray" <oxm...@worldnet.att.net> wrote in message

news:3B7081CD...@worldnet.att.net...
>
> At my age, a succesful movement is incredibly satisfying. But I gotta
> confess that I had nothing to do with the creation of this one.
>
> m

[Jack Farmer]

Like a buddy of mine used to say "Opinions are like ass holes everyone has one
and they all stink."

chilly wrote:

> Hey, everyone's got an opinion, even you.

>
> George <ghmorrisr...@telocity.com> wrote in message

> news:jj61ntc01913m18ta...@4ax.com...
> > On Wed, 08 Aug 2001 00:35:31 GMT, "chilly" <sla...@home.com> shaped the
> > electrons to say:
> >
> > --Who the f*ck do you think you are? You don't know anything about
> anything
> > --that has been going on here for the past few years. Your post is full
> of
> > --inaccuracies and assumptions. If we wanted to hear what you had to say
> > --about it, we'd come over to techdiver and yank your chain.
> >
> > No, we quite like hearing about it here. 'Specially when it gets such a
> cool
> > reaction. Ain't usenet great?
> >
> > --So you came to
> > --find out what Mike Gray stands for, huh? Well, talk to him about it
> and
> > --quit trying to abuse everyone else over here that reads and posts to
> this
> > --board. You pompous ass.
> >
> > Didn't look like an unusually pompous ass to me. Seemed to fit right in.
> > Certainly no worse than Jammer, and lots of the questions were perfectly
> > reasonable. Decent of Mike to answer them.
> >
> > --Over here, *you* are a newbie and haven't proven
> > --yourself to us. I don't give a damn who you are over on techdiver. (and
> > --BTW, as an aside, I do know who you are over at techdiver)
> >
> > Please, put the childish, elitist bs to one side. You don't speak for
> "us". This
> > is a public forum, not your private playground where a few people call the
> > shots. To crawl into rec.scuba you don't "need" to prove yourself. That
> happens
> > on paid for, moderated lists. If you don't like it, don't read the posts.

[bullshark]

Dan Bracuk wrote:
>
> "Suds" <pa...@home.com> wrote

> > Old Farmer John has been over on the tech list whining about you and Popeye
> > so expect a few more of those idiots to come over here looking for a fight.
>

> I feel so left out.
>

Oh, but you're not!

>From: Dan Volker [mailto:d...@sfdj.com]
>Sent: Monday, August 06, 2001 5:33 PM
>To: Jack Farmer; Jim Holcomb; Andrew Georgitsis; anthony rue; Chris
>Werner; Jarrod Jablonski; John Walker; MHK; pina; tleemay; Trey
>Cc: tech...@aquanaut.com
>Subject: RE: Word of advice, Jack
>
>
>REc.scuba has a couple of anti- DIR people with huge amounts of time on
>their hands, and an axe to grind against any DIR idea or person. Mike Gray
>is one, Dan Brakuk is another. Gray actually created a "movement" in which
>he has been getting recreational divers to "want" to call themselves
>"Strokes", and he calls himself a member of "Team Stroke".
>
>While Jack Farmer has made few friends on rec.scuba with his style of
>posting, if he has the time, and wants to throw the bullshit flag at Mike
>Gray several times per day, that might not be such a bad thing ;-)
>
>As long as Jack does not actually "represent" DIR, and as I remember, he has
>stated that he does "NOT" on multiple occaisions, he can be a positive
>force--in that he could "tie up" an extremely negative force ( Mike Gray).
>To this end, I'd tell Jack to "go get'em ".
>
>Better still, a few GUE or WKPP trained divers could post more on rec.scuba
>, and occaisionally get a WKPP or GUE endorsement ( George or Jarrod) for a
>controversial position which is being argued in one of the longer threads.
>Regards,
>Dan Volker
>www.sfdj.com

See? The techlist is all a twitter about you too Dan. Isn't it cute?
Not only that Dan, note the 'TO: list' You are very important in very high
places. These guys are fretting over you and mikey night and day.
I wonder if they will ever get it?

I hope rec.scubans everywhere appreciate DV's interest in posting here.

Gosh I hope a few GUE or WKPP trained (Now they're a training agency?) divers
(well, they *are* trained: Come! Sit! Speak! Rollover! Beg! Suck up!) come over
here to lend some credibility. Frankly, the current crop of techlist attack dogs
don't have much to offer. <yawn>

Is this some kind of plebe initiation ritual?

--
safe diving,

bullshark

[bullshark]

chilly wrote:
>
> Who the f*ck do you think you are? You don't know anything about anything

<snip>

God, I love it when you're hot!

Did you notice this little bit:

>From: "Jim Holcomb" <jimho...@x-divers.com>
>Subject: Word of advice, Jack
>Date: Tue, 7 Aug 2001 02:57:52 -0400
>
>I know we have already discussed this once, but let's try again. The REASON
<snip>
>So as a favor to me and many other inexperienced cave and wreck divers who
>have adopted the DIR philosophy toward our diving..........Please......Shut
>up!

Nice to know that yet another inexperienced-diver-sucking-up-to-fearless-leader
is on the job...I wonder why he decided that his inexperienced blathering is
better than Farm-boys?

--
safe diving,

bullshark

[Jack Farmer]

Mike

This is getting good I think after I finish this round of posting replies I'm
gonna sit it out for a while and watch YOU TWO duk it out for a while.
haha

mike gray wrote:

> Jim Holcomb wrote:
> >
> > That's what I'm talking about Gray - your just full of shit.
>

> Please, Jim, this is rec.scuba, not that lowlife group. It's "you're

> just full of shit."
>
> > You don't
> > think something as simple as a console dangling creates drag?
>

> Woops! Where did that dangling console come from?

>
> > 50/50 at a 160 stop? That will
> > fucking kill you - you idiot.
>

> Lemme see, the question posed by you was " Do you find that a 50/50 gas
> on deep stops makes a notable difference in your overall deco time?" My
> response, that it would eliminate ever having to do a deco stop again,
> clearly went way over yer head. What that means is, that will fucking
> kill you - you idiot. Get it? If yer dead, you never do another deco
> stop? See, "eliminate ever having to do a deco stop again" is just my
> attempt to be clever. I don't hang with those tough-talkin,
> tough-walkin, wannabes over there on your group, so I just don't get the
> format for answering the questions. I'll try to stick to monosyllabic
> responses from here on out.

>
> > Every one talks about how you attempt to
> > twist the words of whoever's posting and no it's not just Farmer. Well
> > twist this asshole - did you NOT say anything I quoted you as saying above.
>

> Clue: Go to first post. High light quote. Click Edit. Click Copy. (I'm
> sorry bout the two syllable words. Get help) Go back to post. Put blinky
> where you want quote. Click Edit. Click Paste.
>
> > And for the record, I have no leader! I happen to believe that diving is a
> > dangerous sport and can be done safely through education and proper
> > training. I believe the "team" is the dive. I believe the use of more and
> > more computers have led to the lack of planning in more and more dive
> > activities both recreational and technical. I believe the level of training
> > being produced by most training agencies is insufficient. I believe more
> > and more divers without any expertise in a given area are advocating unsafe
> > practices. And, finally, I believe people like you and Farmer cloud the
> > horizon to the point that divers who really want to learn something on a
> > forum such as this - don't.
>
> Well, I believe you are wrong on every count.
>
> (snip the chilly harangue.)
>
> > Oh, and BTW, Gray - on the 50/50 question - I asked you what you thought - I
> > never expressed an opinion - contrary to what you thought you read. I have
> > yet to find the advantage of a 50/50 deco gas of more than just a couple
> > minutes in the dives I have done.
>
> Okey dokey. Here's the cut and paste:

>
> > Do you find that a 50/50 gas on deep stops makes a notable difference in your
> > overall deco time?
>

> Another trick question? Hell, 50/50 on a deep stop would eliminate the
> need to ever deco again.
>
> For a diver, you sure do dance well.
>
> m

[Jim Holcomb]

I've lurked on here for some time, I have a feel for the personalities and knew what  (and who) the reaction would be when I posted.  I stand behind my post, soley.  I don't like people who will cast either side of the DIR/PP issue into black and white categories. You've done it and Gray does it.

 

Jim Holcomb

"Jack Farmer" <ja...@mail.thecrusaderbbs.com> wrote in message news:3B7149D4...@mail.thecrusaderbbs.com...

[Vinnie the Bullet]

George (ghmorrisr...@telocity.com) wrote:
: I hope there aren't too many of "us" that are strokes, if you use the "unsafe
: attitude" definition. On top of that, I noticed a few people on the
: thread that are about as DIR as they come.

I think it was "Strokes", gramps, not "strokes" :)

--
Vandit Kalia GO FLYERS!!!!!
Why didnt you just stab it with your dive knife?

[Vinnie the Bullet]

George (ghmorrisr...@telocity.com) wrote:
: Both DIR and other equipment configs can be stroke or non-stroke, as without

: exception, attitude is more important than equipment. A safe diver will
: not dive unsafe equipment regardless of its design, or engage in unsafe
: activities.

Very well put, indeed.