MY definition of a stroke
Jim Holcomb
exposed to a safer way of doing something but chooses not to (usually driven
by ego).
By definition - A newbie cannot be a stroke because they are still in the
learning stage. A "two weekender a year" cannot be a stroke because odds are
they've had no exposure nor care to. Someone of less than moderate
intelligence cannot be a stroke because they may not understand the concept.
A recreational diver beginning his training into the technical realm cannot
be a stroke because he, too, is in the learning stage.
A "stroke", by definition, is one who continues to operate unsafely WHEN HE
KNOWS he is operating unsafely.
Does that clear anything up?
Popeye
>Date: 8/8/01 9:26 AM Eastern Daylight Time
>Message-id: <z6bc7.412$%o4.3...@newsread1.prod.itd.earthlink.net>
Yes. It moves you from close minded to pig headed.
Your definition is valid. For you. There are other definitions. Equally
valid.
Once again, you assume that your way is "safe" and ours is not, grandly, and
with little or no evidence.
If you want to interact with this group, you need to know -our- definitions.
Popeye
Having a bad day? You -could- look like this!
http://www.thecrusaderbbs.com/index2.html
Nice rug. HaHa L8R
Michael Wolf
<z6bc7.412$%o4.3...@newsread1.prod.itd.earthlink.net>:
Who defines 'unsafely'?
--
Michael Wolf
-----
Life's a beach and then you dive
remove stopspam to reply
hkr...@capu.net
Being a woman and waking up "the next morning" to discover the guy in the bed
with you is...
Popeye.
:>}
--
Harry Krause
------------
Maintain thy airspeed, lest the ground rise & smite thee
Paul Schilter
Okay, by your definition Team Stroke members aren't "strokes", but we
aren't DIR either. If you want to be DIR that's fine, enjoy. If I decide to
cave dive I'd probably become DIR, just don't need it for OW reef diving. I
won't knock you for your choices, respect me for mine. You can be a full DIR
diver and still be in Team Stroke just respect those that choose to be
different. And different doesn't equal unsafe.
Paul
"Jim Holcomb" <scub...@earthlink.net> wrote in message
news:z6bc7.412$%o4.3...@newsread1.prod.itd.earthlink.net...
Jim Holcomb
"Popeye" <buzcu...@aol.comByte-me> wrote in message
news:20010808095446...@ng-fh1.aol.com...
Brian Wagner
>
> A "two weekender a year" cannot be a stroke because odds are
> they've had no exposure nor care to.
Not caring to know would seem to be a conscious choice not to
know, and thus to avoid acting on said knowledge. Ingorance is
often by choice. One who thinks that he shouldn't seek to
improve would seem to be the very essence of a stroke.
Jim Holcomb
bunch that I encounter fall more into the "ignorance are bliss" category
than actually making a decision not to improve. After all, they were taught
in their O/W class that "anyone can dive" and how "safe" it is. Most (of the
above group) have not taken a proactive role in their diving education and
rarely participate in open forums on diving issues until they are ready to
go on a trip and even then it is to ask about their proposed destination NOT
issues of safety.
Jim Holcomb
"Brian Wagner" <bwa...@mr.marconimed.com> wrote in message
news:3B7153D5...@mr.marconimed.com...
Vinnie the Bullet
diving.
The context, threats,, etc of OW rec diving are so different that the
benefits of the DIR approach are minimial. Common sense, training and
skills development (you kno, the stuff taught by PADI, CMAS, etc.) are all
you need to be a safe diver.
To tell rec divers that "DIR is the way to go, anything else is unsafe" is
a crock of shit. I switched to a DIR config at the start of this year,
because I do a lot of wreck penetrations and it was an obviously better
way to get configured than my regular OW gear. Funnily enough, in terms
of buddy policies, etc. - I've found the lessons learned from my dive
buddy/CMAS instructor to be more useful, to be honest. if I had not been
into wrecks, I wouldnt have bothered switching.
Jim Holcomb (scub...@earthlink.net) wrote:
: A "stroke" is an individual who is of moderate intelligence and has been
:
:
--
Vandit Kalia GO FLYERS!!!!!
Why didnt you just stab it with your dive knife?
Michael Wolf
>In a sense, you are correct Brian. But most of the "two-weekender a
>year" bunch that I encounter fall more into the "ignorance are bliss"
>category than actually making a decision not to improve. After all,
>they were taught in their O/W class that "anyone can dive" and how
>"safe" it is. Most (of the above group) have not taken a proactive role
>in their diving education and rarely participate in open forums on
>diving issues until they are ready to go on a trip and even then it is
>to ask about their proposed destination NOT issues of safety.
>
>Jim Holcomb
So they made the deliberate choice of taking the easy (eventual unsafe)
way. It's not really what I would call ignorance.
Chaoswolf
heard about DIR, hell, most don't even know about rec.scuba.
Even regular divers that got certified by their local dive shop, and going on a
weekly basis with the same people diving for years don't neccessary KNOW how to
do it safer. They are listening to their instructors, bying their novelty gear
that is supposed to make them safer divers at the shop and keeping themself
informed via Rodale's, Skin Diver and Dive Training (or so). Why shouldn't they
believe that they are doing all the best to be safe divers.
Greetings
Udo
Jim Holcomb
"Vinnie the Bullet" <vka...@netaxs.com> wrote in message
news:9krl5p$s...@netaxs.com...
> The word stroke was coined specifically in the context of tech/cave
> diving.
>
> The context, threats,, etc of OW rec diving are so different that the
> benefits of the DIR approach are minimial. Common sense, training and
> skills development (you kno, the stuff taught by PADI, CMAS, etc.) are all
> you need to be a safe diver.
Well, at least should be taught.
> To tell rec divers that "DIR is the way to go, anything else is unsafe" is
> a crock of shit.
Did I say that?
I switched to a DIR config at the start of this year,
> because I do a lot of wreck penetrations and it was an obviously better
> way to get configured than my regular OW gear. Funnily enough, in terms
> of buddy policies, etc. - I've found the lessons learned from my dive
> buddy/CMAS instructor to be more useful, to be honest. if I had not been
> into wrecks, I wouldnt have bothered switching.
My primary reason for carrying my technical configuration over to my
recreational diving is to create a conditioned response to any event. A
constant and consistant configuration that I add to or subtract from BUT NOT
alter (sounds like a contradiction but I think you get the jest).
Cptn Harry Snapper Organs
: > The context, threats,, etc of OW rec diving are so different that the
: > benefits of the DIR approach are minimial. Common sense, training and
: > skills development (you kno, the stuff taught by PADI, CMAS, etc.) are all
: > you need to be a safe diver.
: Well, at least should be taught.
I learned all that in CMAS. I learned all that in PADI as well.
: > To tell rec divers that "DIR is the way to go, anything else is unsafe" is
: > a crock of shit.
: Did I say that?
No, you didnt, but it follows from what you are railing against.
- the early introduction of DIR to this NG was from a bunch of zealots,
ala Farmer - they were spouting DIR-or-death bullshit.
- Mike was one of the people who said that is bullshit, and that DIR isnt
necessarily the only way to go. As many people have tried to tell you
here, THAT is the essence of Mike's statements, once stripped of the
tongue-in-cheek barbs and baiting.
- If you think that Mike's position is wrong, then either you dont
understand what he is talking about (which doesnt reflect well on you) or
you feel that DIR is the only way to go.
You seem like an intelligent guy, actually, and despite the fact that I
have been tooling on you in earlier posts, I think you'd be a welcome
addition to rec.scuba *provided* you shed your misconceptions on this
whole anti-DIR conspiracy.
: My primary reason for carrying my technical configuration over to my
: recreational diving is to create a conditioned response to any event. A
: constant and consistant configuration that I add to or subtract from BUT NOT
: alter (sounds like a contradiction but I think you get the jest).
Well, that was my ostensible reason when I switched to a tech rig as
well: the benefit of condition response.
Then I realized that I was fooling myself - in all honesty, there is very
little that can go wrong for me in a regular fun OW dive where a
conditioned response would be the deciding factor. Still, it doesnt hurt
to have the same rig, either.
Here are the key benefits I perceive of having a tech rig while going rec
OW diving:
- not having multiple BCs, weights, etc. -- cheaper. Also, if you go out
on a rec dive vacation but get the chance to do some wreck diving or
whatever, you are prepared.
- if you are diving with a new operator, it is more likely to give you
some credibility and you are less likely to have to put up with "follow
the DM - 60 feet for 30 min" crap (especially if you can back the rig up
with the skills that go with it). Cynical, aint it? But it has worked
pretty well for me for the most part.
- I'd also say that chicks dig all-black clad tech divers, but I've seen
some of the alleged "chicks" that go out in the New England dive boats.
If they dig all-black clad tech divers, I'm buying one of those neon Dive
Goddes skins to wear over my drysuit.
The Poster Formerly Known as Vinnie the Bullet
mike gray
While you are certainly a stroke by your definition, you are not a
Stroke by Team Stroke's definition.
Back in July of 2000, the following appeared here:
* * * * * * * *
We believe that all Strokes are equal in the eyes of that Great DM in
the sky, though clearly superior to cocoanuts, DIR, and solid fill.
We believe in the right of the individual to select and configure his
own gear and poke fun at those that don't know how.
We believe in diving solo, with Strokes, with DIR Stroke wannabes, or
with whoever ya please, but never with those ya don't please, as long as
it's fun.
We believe in motherhood, apple pie, the flag, spotted puppies and
dappled mares, little girls that don't wear panties, and being handsome.
Very handsome.
We believe that Team Stroke will be bigger than PADI within eighteen
months, and passed DIR about three weeks ago.
We believe in flat seas, good vis, and federal subsidies for dive gear.
Yes, we believe in all this, and more. We believe in whatever we wanna
believe in.
See that rainbow stretching from horizon to horizon as the sun comes out
over the dive site? That's fer you, Team Stroke, a new age of diving.
Do ya wanna go with those grumpy, monosyllabic, tightassed defenders of
dumb DIR gear, or do ya wanna go have some fun?
* * * * * * * *
Now, jimmie, compare that with yer tight-ass self-definition. Is that
really what you want out of diving?
If yer answer is yes, yer on the wrong ng. This is rec.scuba, and the
rec stands for recreational. We dive to have fun, not to fulfill some
macho fantasy. We are a variegated group, some have thousands of dives
in conditions that are beyond yer ken, some are in the process of taking
their entry level instruction. Pretty much, we all get along and don't
take ouselves too seriously.
We know you are on a mission from God III to put fear in our hearts, and
show us the true way, but that's just not what this ng is about.
I suggest you stick with the other ngs until you have the experience and
self confidence to solve yer diving problems on yer own. Then you might
be ready to graduate to a group that enjoys and appreciates the varied
demands of recreational diving.
regards
m
mike gray
>
>
> My primary reason for carrying my technical configuration over to my
> recreational diving is to create a conditioned response to any event. A
> constant and consistant configuration that I add to or subtract from BUT NOT
> alter (sounds like a contradiction but I think you get the jest).
Yes, we get the jest. The gist of being a Stroke is development of
skills, through experience, that permit the application of intellect
where conditioned response is inappropriate.
m
mike gray
>
> ... the essence of Mike's statements, once stripped of the
> tongue-in-cheek barbs and baiting.
Tongue in cheek???
Barbs????
Baiting?????????
Moi?!?!?!
Shirley, you have me confused with another.
btw, another snippet from DiveGirl:
How to rig your outfit the DIR way.
Basics
Please note: It would be extremely irresponsible,
dangerous, and foolish for you to assemble and wear
this rig without understanding exactly why you're doing
it and what each little detail means.
Keep it simple
Too many people today seem under the impression that more is
always better. The basic principles of the DIR outfit are this:
1. Remove all unecessary equipment - take all you need, but only
what you need.
2. Each member of the team should be wearing an identical outfit.
This makes it easy to understand each others equipment and in an
emergency, kit can be swapped or cross patched.
Lets look at each item starting from the top.
Hair
Almost goes without saying that it should be kept short, no more
than 1 inch on top. For easy identification, it should be parted
slightly to the left.
Other styles:
A French crop would appear to be a suitable alternative at first
glance, it presents a number of problems:
1. A considerable increase in task loading as it requires visiting a
decent hair dressers in the first place and then regular maintenance
after that.
2. Usually requires some form of gel/mousse. The use of hair
products is strictly for strokes and only serves to increase drag and
reduce efficiency.
Other Syles to Avoid:
Quiff - too much task loading due to the maintenance
Mullet - although popular in Holland and Germany, it really doesn't
get any more unfashionable than this. And anyway a hair cut named
after a fish? - I ask you.
Curly mop - although it requires no real maintenance there is a
distinct likelyhood of being mistaken for Sheck Exley, Rob Palmer
or Bill Stone (the horror of it).
Moustache - not strictly a hair cut, you may end up being mistaken
for one of the above. It can create an even worse scenario when
combined with cropped hair - you just end up looking like one of the
Village People.
Glasses
Simple wire rimmed are essential as they are light and
unobtrousive. Designer glasses are not acceptable because they
are too individual and therefore cannot be interchanged with
another team member in an emergency.
T-Shirt
This is a key part of the outfit and whilst there are many t-shirts on
the market, the DIR shirt must have the following criteria:
White Eygptian cotton
Short sleeves - the correct length must be 5 inches - any longer and
there is a risk of entanglement, any shorter and there is a risk that
they'll look like those cap sleeve T-shirts that were worn in the 70s
(thus precipitating a major fashion incident).
T-Shirt markings
The DIR logo on the front should be at least 3 inches high, as you
will be instantly recognisable anyway, and there should be no other
markings on the T-shirt. Beware of large oversize type as this is
dangerously 80s (eg Frankie Says Relax).
The back of the T-shirt should have a much larger logo (at least 12
inches) with the words 'No Strokes' written on it. This will allow you
to be clearly seen by other team members who may be looking for
you in a conference room or busy pub.
There is no excuse for incorrect T-shirt markings - although other
agencies recommend other sizes and colours it may lead to other
team members failing to recognise you.
Always analyse your T-shirt before wearing it. Picking up a T-shirt
from the drawer or the shop without properly checking it first could
be dangerous. A recent incident occured when a Genesis Tour
T-shirt was mistakenly bought from a shop (the label hadn't been
checked) in the belief that it was actually a bonafide DIR T-shirt.
Trousers
Levis regular 501's with the button fly. The key thing about these is
that they have the correct number of pockets and most significantly,
exactly 5 belt loops of 1 1/2 inch diameter. This standardization
allows team members to cross patch their equipment during a
major trouser emergency.
There has been an trend away from jeans and towards combat
trousers in the belief that the extra pockets will come in useful. This
is wrong. Its just a just fashion thing as the extra pockets creates an
atmospheric trapping effect, thus increasing drag.
Belt
Brown leather, 1 inch in width. These fit best into the 501's belt
loops and stay properly in place. Extras like studs should be
avoided as they may snag.
Shoes
Timberland desert shoes. Colour:sand. Makes for easy
identification of other team members and allows for
interchangeability if you end up putting your foot in it and ending up
on your back-up shoe. Avoid boots as they create drag (especially
in thigh length patent leather)
Shoelaces
Must not be cross threaded through the islets as they will make
removal and replacement difficult in the event of a major shoelace
failure.
Harness
Leather, rubber, studs - just say no to bondage gear. This is Doin' It
Right! (not an S&M convention - though lets face it, easy mistake to
make)
Mark Brill, 1999
After posting this on the Tech Diver Mailing list, we received
this typically stern response from one of the DIR divers
(George Hamilton IV or someone)...
What you morons need to understand is that to wear any thing other
than White Egyptian cotton, you would have to be an blithering idiot.
How many people have to die before you strokes get a clue. There
is no excuse not to have the right equipment. Rayon, Silk, 50 50
blends. These are nothing but attempts by manufactures to take
advantage of all you strokes. The catwalks have displayed some of
the most dangerous stupidity ever posted.
I am real sick of amateur bullshit opinions whether they come from
5th Avenue or Pairs. We do not need displays of drooling
ignorance, such as long sleeves. If the insulation provided by 5
inches is insufficient you should abort your excursion. I've been
wearing T-shirts longer than most of you have been alive!
I learned the hard way. The fact is that I know what it is like to come
out from hell with only Haynes on my back.
I don't buy cheap ass bullshit gear for Evening Dress, and only a
stroke would do so.
Suits are some of the worst examples of idiocy I have ever seen,
like collared shirts, with ties no less, have resulted in fatality
after
fatality.
You can not get around the logic of the system, and when you start
adding other things, you are asking for confusion, trouble and
mutations that will end up killing somebody.
Are any of the basics of DIR making any sense to the strokes yet, or
do we need more research?
chilly
mike gray <oxm...@worldnet.att.net> wrote in message
news:3B71857B...@worldnet.att.net...
Jim Holcomb
private emails by posting my definition of a stroke - a word I seldom use.
And I get playground crap. You represent your people (whoever they are)
well, Mike.
Jim Holcomb
"mike gray" <oxm...@worldnet.att.net> wrote in message
news:3B717ED4...@worldnet.att.net...
Brian Wagner
>
> You're just not capable of a serious discussion, are you? I responded to
> private emails by posting my definition of a stroke - a word I seldom use.
> And I get playground crap.
If you could think clearly, you'd see that he is giving you a
serious response - you're just not getting it.
RJoeChandler
>And I get playground crap<
This is rec. scuba. It is a playground. Didn't you know that?--Chandler, TS
and very very handsome (or wannabe) but not a sockpuppet
John Smith
A stroke is someone who does a deep gas dive without a chamber on site.
Pat Burke
>A constant and consistant configuration that I add to or >subtract from BUT
NOT alter
Huh?
>(sounds like a contradiction but I think you get the jest).
Oh, OK... good one!
Regards,
Pat Burke
Dan Volker
A stroke ( STROKE) is an insult term coined by DIR divers, and in use for
many years before Mikey and his pals decided they could re-define the word.
You know this is the truth.
I guess we could re-define the word smart, to mean stupid, and then start
telling everyone how "smart" Mike is, but why not just "say what we mean".
You were a Marine---I'm pretty sure you enjoy the "say what you mean
"legacy" that this entails.... Gray and brakuk, and yourself as well, using
the word stroke with your own made up definition, is not "straight
shooting". It misleads the newcomer to rec.scuba , and has a related
backlash on diveboats.
You asked me to conform to a higher level of behavior..., how about
reciprocating. I know you can't force someone as "smart" as Mike to talk
more responsibly, but just getting you on this same playing field would be a
big step in getting the "REAL" discussions on the table, so that divers just
coming into this have at least a slight clue about what in the hell we are
talking about, and what we really mean.
You asked me to make a serious effort to "think" about what I say on the
newgroup before posting, and to post responsibly. I think you'll agree that
my DIR commentaries of the last 3 months, are far from the affronts of posts
in years past.
I would think you'd also agree that the whole orchestrated attack on DIR is
aimed more at aspects of DIR that are not even relevant to DIR for
recreational divers ( the whole DIR-L issue).
The real issue here, at least to me, is an attempt to help new divers, or to
help divers who are thinking about making a transition to more advanced
diving--for bigger adventures. To me, diving has always been about the
search for adventure, and I've always enjoyed looking for just a little
more, each time I go.
The DIR posts really "should" be about these issues, as the core of any
discussion of DIR on rec.scuba. I know a diver can survive a 50 foot reef
dive in South florida or other resort area, with the most horifying gear
imaginable, no real bouyancy skills, and potentially almost no ability to
move around in the water---we see this every weekend. Just because we know
this is "survivable", does not mean we should turn our heads and ignore
them--that's pretty much what some unscrupulous instructor already did. So
some of us offer up DIR advice on many issues where it could help. If I
hear a DIR proponent calling a person STROKE, and Farm Animal Stupid, as
part of an intimidation routine for pushing their ideas, I'll jump all over
them. I see no place at all for this on rec.scuba.
The only DIR advice dispensing that takes place, should be in a context,
with the "why's" added, and a good explanation added. And none of us should
ever say a new diver should do something "only because" this thing is DIR,
with no other explanation.
The whole DIR against Stroke thing on rec.scuba has mutated. We are not even
argueing about the same things, in the same threads.
I'm not looking for group hugs here, I'm just saying, when we say things on
a mass media ( which this is), there are often repercussions. People might
actually listen to us, and act accordingly. This "game" that got started is
not "good" for anything but the laughs of some regulars. If personal
chuckles are all that matters, then fine, keep argueing for the sheer fun of
it, regardless of what you believe.
For now, how about agreeing on this "stroke" debate, that "No One" on
rec.scuba is really a Stroke, if they are trully a recreational diver....
Regards,
Dan Volker
"Popeye" <buzcu...@aol.comByte-me> wrote in message
news:20010808095446...@ng-fh1.aol.com...
chilly
Pat Burke <wburk...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:20010808175152...@ng-cr1.aol.com...
Ross Bagley
Dan Volker <d...@sfdj.com> wrote:
>Popeye,
>A stroke ( STROKE) is an insult term coined by DIR divers, and in use for
>many years before Mikey and his pals decided they could re-define the word.
Don't forget that Jammer redefined it to be "anyone to disagrees with
George (via Jammer)" long before that. It was in response to Jammer's
"newer", "broader", "more fun for me" definition of stroke that I
watched Team Stroke appear. Not that he was the only one throwing
the word around, but others did follow his lead.
I'll sheepishly admit to using the term myself a few times, mostly out
of frustration with people who would assert without substantiating,
and at least once, I used it to describe someone with what I thought
was a dangerous attitude.
>You know this is the truth.
But not the whole truth. There's more to the story of Team Stroke
than just the Mike and Dan show.
[...snip...]
>The real issue here, at least to me, is an attempt to help new divers, or to
>help divers who are thinking about making a transition to more advanced
>diving--for bigger adventures. To me, diving has always been about the
>search for adventure, and I've always enjoyed looking for just a little
>more, each time I go.
>The DIR posts really "should" be about these issues, as the core of any
>discussion of DIR on rec.scuba.
Then you need to police Jammer and Farmer better. DIR needs their
support like you need a hole in the head.
Since you can't prevent them from posting, you'll at least need to
make certain that you distance yourself (and DIR) from their
"contributions" and to actually offer help in direct response to their
abusive posts.
[...snip...]
> For now, how about agreeing on this "stroke" debate, that "No One" on
>rec.scuba is really a Stroke, if they are trully a recreational diver....
Hardly. That pejorative term has effectively lost all meaning on
rec.scuba. If you want to call someone a dangerous diver, do it.
Call them a "dangerous diver". "Stroke" simply ain't gonna cut it
any more around here.
Though I do really enjoy observing how much Jammer resembles the
original definition of stroke: the people who would brown-nose the
real cave divers, hoping to be included into the group... Something
about that is just so satisfying....
Regards,
Ross
-- Ross Bagley & Associates http://rossbagley.com/rba
"We don't just write software, we help you write software better!"
Cptn Harry Snapper Organs
: Tongue in cheek???
: Barbs????
: Baiting?????????
: Moi?!?!?!
: Shirley, you have me confused with another.
Hey, Chilly and I can supplant Punch and Judy: the Frank and Shirley show.
: 1. Remove all unecessary equipment - take all you need, but only
: what you need.
That rules out clothes, etc. That, in turn, brings to mind a certain
link to Not My Fish at www.rotten.com homepage (do *not* take a look at
it if you are offended by sexually explicit images. It is NOT for the
easily-offended)
: The back of the T-shirt should have a much larger logo (at least 12
: inches) with the words 'No Strokes' written on it. This will allow you
: to be clearly seen by other team members who may be looking for
: you in a conference room or busy pub.
What makes you think DIR divers actually go out to a pub and socialize and
stuff? I thought they went back to the hive for reprogramming and an oil
change.
Snipped the response from George Hamilton IV - that's obviously a fake.
There was n blaming TDI or Tom Mount in that diatribe.
Cptn Harry Snapper Organs
ability to read between the lines.
Jim Holcomb (scub...@earthlink.net) wrote:
: You're just not capable of a serious discussion, are you? I responded to
: private emails by posting my definition of a stroke - a word I seldom use.
: And I get playground crap. You represent your people (whoever they are)
: well, Mike.
--
Jammer Six
<vka...@netaxs.com> wrote:
€ The word stroke was coined specifically in the context of tech/cave
€ diving.
You have no idea how, when, or where it was coined.
You weren't there.
--
"C'mon, you sons of bitches, you want to live forever?"
-Sergeant Major Dan Daley
Dan Bracuk
> exposed to a safer way of doing something but chooses not to (usually driven
> by ego).
This is my definition - A stroke is someone who knows what DIR is and
rejects it.
Pretty much the only difference between Jim's definition and mine, is
that mine has nothing to do with safety. The eligibility criteria are
certainly similar.
Dan Bracuk
Toronto, Canada
Warning - Dan Volker thinks my opinions kill people.
Best of Rec.Scuba http://www.chaoticarts.com/~scuba/
mike gray
>
> You're just not capable of a serious discussion, are you? I responded to
> private emails by posting my definition of a stroke - a word I seldom use.
> And I get playground crap. You represent your people (whoever they are)
> well, Mike.
I'm serious as a heart attack, my friend.
And speaking of heart attacks - you really need to lighten up. It might
save yer life. If you get in a serious jam and react - how did you say
you react, a "conditioned response" - as you seemed conditioned to react
here, yer in deep doodoo.
One more time: we are rec divers. We have learned to dive happy. We have
a lot of fun with diving and discussing diving.
Read yer definition. Think about it. It's really farm animal stupid. How
can you come up with such tripe and expect folks not to make fun of it.
The entire premise is that diving is not safe unless it's done your way,
and any halfwit can see through that. DIR has demonstrated no safety
advantage. Zip. Zero. None. And if you had been around here a few weeks
ago, you would have seen a serious discussion of scuba safety with lots
of data, graphs and charts. I don't remember your participation.
If you want serious discussion, ya have to start with a credible
premise. Work on that.
m
mike gray
>
> Popeye,
> A stroke ( STROKE) is an insult term coined by DIR divers, and in use for
> many years before Mikey and his pals decided they could re-define the word.
> You know this is the truth.
The term stroke was around long before DIR. Why do you guys have to
claim you invented everything?
(snip)
It was DIR that decided to redefine the term stroke, the term
streamline, and the term safe, among others.
We just like to have a little fun with the DIR newspeak, especially
those of us old enough to have been forced to write book reports on
"Animal Farm".
m
Cptn Harry Snapper Organs
You guys are sitting here and splitting hairs about what the definition of
the word "stroke" is, who coined it, whether or not it is an insult or
not.
Talk about missing the forest because of the trees!
Dan Volker (d...@sfdj.com) wrote:
: Popeye,
: >
:
:
:
mike gray
>
>
> You guys are sitting here and splitting hairs about what the definition of
> the word "stroke" is, who coined it, whether or not it is an insult or
> not.
>
> Talk about missing the forest because of the trees!
Yer absolutely right! The real question is "how many Strokes can post in
a gigabyte?"
Dan Bracuk
> many years before Mikey and his pals decided they could re-define the word.
That was back in the days when DIR was strictly cave diving and had no
application whatsoever to recreational diving was it not? Looks like
both terms have evolved.
Dan Volker
The people who made DIR what it is, do not run around calling recreational
divers Strokes. When I have been out diving with George, Jarrod, and Bill
Mee, no one EVER calls recreational people on the boat strokes.
The word came to rec.scuba via the tech list, but it's use is incorrect. And
the DIR people who are responsible for coining the term, "should" be able to
say what is correct and what is not about it's use.
That's not to say that people on rec.scuba can't use a word improperly
without being "policed". If you were to call Dr Black as Asshole,
technically speaking, you are incorrect in your use of the word. Black may
be smelly and ugly, but that's not the same thing. But in this case,
everyone knows what you mean, so the result is fine.
When someone new to DIR calls a recreational diver a stroke, they need to be
corrected. You can do this, and so can I.
Jammer can't be corrected --any one who reads through his posts knows why
:-)
And as to "forcing" DIR down peoples throat, one of Mike Gray's big claims
as to why he is so adamant against DIR....I have been on the boat with Mike
many times in the last 4 years, and NEVER "pushed" him on changing gear
configurations, or in any way degraded his gear.
Maybe the issue should be you guys going after the "individuals" who have
upset your world order, instead of waging war on DIR.
What if people in Buffalo had run ins with a few Canadians, and decided all
of Canada was bad, because of a few jerks. And you know their are plenty of
Canadians causing trouble in Buffalo on many weekends. Luckily, the people
of Buffalo are reasonable enough to know that this is an issue they have
with a small group of individuals, not an entire people.
DIR faces this same issue, being blamed constantly for comments made by
people who no more represent DIR than the troublemakers in Buffalo represent
Canadians.
Regards,
Dan Volker
"Dan Bracuk" <bra...@axxent.ca> wrote in message
news:5f689eea.01080...@posting.google.com...
chilly
terribly sorry, you said the opposite.
I gotta tell ya, if this is what they are raising over there at Techdiver
and Quest, it's pretty scary. I mean DIR sounds like one helluva way to
dive but some of the guys that are speaking for it . . . Sheesh, (walking
away, shaking my head)
Cptn Harry "Snapper" Organs <vka...@netaxs.com> wrote in message
news:9kspml$7...@netaxs.com...
John Francis
>What if people in Buffalo had run ins with a few Canadians, and decided all
>of Canada was bad, because of a few jerks. And you know their are plenty of
>Canadians causing trouble in Buffalo on many weekends. Luckily, the people
>of Buffalo are reasonable enough to know that this is an issue they have
>with a small group of individuals, not an entire people.
Thanks a lot Dan. Now I'll know who to blame when my van gets shot up
driving thru Buffalo next time. Used to be it was only on I-75 in Fla
where they drew down on us innocent Canucks. Maybe I should get my new
van armourplated.
Lasciate ogni speranza, voi ch'entrate!... Dante
chilly
Dan Volker <d...@sfdj.com> wrote in message
news:ixmc7.5485$V43.4...@e3500-atl1.usenetserver.com...
> Dan,
> The people who made DIR what it is, do not run around calling recreational
> divers Strokes. When I have been out diving with George, Jarrod, and Bill
> Mee, no one EVER calls recreational people on the boat strokes.
Oh, yeah, ya don't say? What do they call them then?
> The word came to rec.scuba via the tech list, but it's use is incorrect.
And
> the DIR people who are responsible for coining the term, "should" be able
to
> say what is correct and what is not about it's use.
Well, if you say so.
> That's not to say that people on rec.scuba can't use a word improperly
> without being "policed". If you were to call Dr Black as Asshole,
> technically speaking, you are incorrect in your use of the word. Black may
> be smelly and ugly, but that's not the same thing. But in this case,
> everyone knows what you mean, so the result is fine.
That's a pretty hard argument to refute. ;^)
> When someone new to DIR calls a recreational diver a stroke, they need to
be
> corrected. You can do this, and so can I.
> Jammer can't be corrected --any one who reads through his posts knows why
> :-)
:^)
>
> And as to "forcing" DIR down peoples throat, one of Mike Gray's big claims
> as to why he is so adamant against DIR....I have been on the boat with
Mike
> many times in the last 4 years, and NEVER "pushed" him on changing gear
> configurations, or in any way degraded his gear.
Well, I'll tell ya one thing. Mike has never told me that if I didn't
change my gear configuration to his and adopt his attitude towards diving
then I was going to die. In fact, come to think of it, Mike has never
suggested that I change anything though he certainly has dispensed some very
good advice and wisdom over the last couple of years that I've been around.
He's also given me some serious belly laughs and once in a while, if I'm
paying attention, I really learn a lot from him. I always feel bad when I
wasn't up to par on a day that Mike was sharing info. He's never stopped me
from admiring some of the DIR configurements and philosophies. Many, many
of the DIR proponents have sure given me pause in that regard.
>
> Maybe the issue should be you guys going after the "individuals" who have
> upset your world order, instead of waging war on DIR.
World order? What the . . . Another bipolar moment there, Dan? The only
place with world order around here seems to be tech and Quest.
> What if people in Buffalo had run ins with a few Canadians, and decided
all
> of Canada was bad, because of a few jerks. And you know their are plenty
of
> Canadians causing trouble in Buffalo on many weekends. Luckily, the
people
> of Buffalo are reasonable enough to know that this is an issue they have
> with a small group of individuals, not an entire people.
LOL, now that's a compelling argument to make to a Canadian. Ha, ha,
haaaaaaahaaaaaa, Geez, you almost made me laugh as much as Mike can.
> DIR faces this same issue, being blamed constantly for comments made by
> people who no more represent DIR than the troublemakers in Buffalo
represent
> Canadians.
Well, then maybe you need to be policing the people that are speaking for
you instead of trying to take on what you presume to be your detractors.
Not doing so is making you guys look like a bunch of "morons".
John Jordan
odd years ago. Top fuel drag racer Shirley Muldowney was asked some stupid
question about herself, and Janet Guthrie, who had qualified for the Indy
500 a couple of times (with poor results). Something about being pioneers as
women in racing. She replied "I'm three times Top Fuel Word Champion, Janet
Guthrie is a stroke"
John
--
mike gray <oxm...@worldnet.att.net> wrote in message
news:3B71E5A5...@worldnet.att.net...
chilly
backup. They're on a mission fer cryin' out loud.
John Jordan <johnj...@mindspring.com> wrote in message
news:9ksuv6$u07$1...@slb6.atl.mindspring.net...
Cptn Harry Snapper Organs
: Hey, like you said, you're proud to be associated with them. Oh wait! I'm
: terribly sorry, you said the opposite.
: I gotta tell ya, if this is what they are raising over there at Techdiver
: and Quest, it's pretty scary. I mean DIR sounds like one helluva way to
: dive but some of the guys that are speaking for it . . . Sheesh, (walking
: away, shaking my head)
Techdiver makes me laugh - the number of fuckheads that are posing as
tough, macho guys there is amazing. Something about diving seems to be
bring out the testicles.
chilly
I'll have to rethink my position on a few things. ;^)
Cptn Harry "Snapper" Organs <vka...@netaxs.com> wrote in message
news:9kt106$7...@netaxs.com...
Glawackus
>Something about diving seems to be
>bring out the testicles.
>
Well it's not the cold water.
Steve
The above can be construed as personal opinion in the absence of a reasonable
belief that it was intended as a statement of fact. Or it might just be to
generate discussion.
John Mason Jr.
chilly <sla...@home.com> wrote in message
news:PFmc7.58209$sM.15...@news2.rdc1.ab.home.com...
> Hey, like you said, you're proud to be associated with them. Oh wait!
I'm
> terribly sorry, you said the opposite.
>
> I gotta tell ya, if this is what they are raising over there at Techdiver
> and Quest, it's pretty scary. I mean DIR sounds like one helluva way to
> dive but some of the guys that are speaking for it . . . Sheesh, (walking
> away, shaking my head)
>
Techdiver and Quest have alot of good info, you have to seperate the wheat
from the chaff just like here
<snip>
John
Suds
Suds
--
In Four States: Texas, Ohio, Georgia, and Arkansas, it is illegal to sell a
vibrator. Yet in all of these states, a person can easily purchase a
handgun. I've never heard of anyone committing mass murder with a vibrator!
--From "The Vagina Monologues"
"mike gray" <oxm...@worldnet.att.net> wrote in message
news:3B71E5A5...@worldnet.att.net...
Suds
C|;^{)
Suds
--
In Four States: Texas, Ohio, Georgia, and Arkansas, it is illegal to sell a
vibrator. Yet in all of these states, a person can easily purchase a
handgun. I've never heard of anyone committing mass murder with a vibrator!
--From "The Vagina Monologues"
"Cptn Harry "Snapper" Organs" <vka...@netaxs.com> wrote in message
news:9kt106$7...@netaxs.com...
chilly
Suds <pa...@home.com> wrote in message
news:hCoc7.20908$c8.62...@news1.denver1.co.home.com...
Jammer Six
<sla...@home.com> wrote:
€ Oh, yeah, ya don't say? What do they call them then?
Nothing at all.
Brian Nadwidny
>
> Hey, like you said, you're proud to be associated with them. Oh wait! I'm
> terribly sorry, you said the opposite.
>
> I gotta tell ya, if this is what they are raising over there at Techdiver
> and Quest, it's pretty scary. I mean DIR sounds like one helluva way to
> dive but some of the guys that are speaking for it . . . Sheesh, (walking
> away, shaking my head)
We're much nicer in person.
BTW I'm still coming the weekend of August 24-26th. We still got a date?
Brian
Edmonton, Alberta, Canada
chilly
Brian Nadwidny <BNad...@excite.com> wrote in message
news:3B72248B...@excite.com...
Jim Holcomb
Jim Holcomb
"mike gray" <oxm...@worldnet.att.net> wrote in message
news:3B71DBDE...@worldnet.att.net...
chilly
him back home where he belongs. He seems to be lost and confused.
Jim Holcomb <scub...@earthlink.net> wrote in message
news:_Kpc7.1766$Fc7.1...@newsread2.prod.itd.earthlink.net...
Cptn Harry Snapper Organs
: That is amazing!! I never imagined that some men would recognize that too.
: I'll have to rethink my position on a few things. ;^)
Did I ever tell you that deep down, I am the sensitive type?
Jim Holcomb
posting of a little boy. This little boy stated that DIR hasn't a proven
safety record. Do you think that's true? Nevermind - this is probably that
lack of sense of humor someone referred to earlier about me.
Jim Holcomb
"chilly" <sla...@home.com> wrote in message
news:ZNpc7.58684$sM.15...@news2.rdc1.ab.home.com...
chilly
Cptn Harry "Snapper" Organs <vka...@netaxs.com> wrote in message
news:9kt9ul$4...@netaxs.com...
Cptn Harry Snapper Organs
: Testicles, testosterone, whatever, why split hairs? ;^P
Nah, I meant testicles.
Testosterone is good, up to a point. When you let your balls lead you
around, instead of your brains..... that's when the trouble starts.
They walk around swollen up like a bunch of bullfrogs, thinking they are
attracting female bullfrogs.
chilly
> No "chilly" I'm not anyone's lost lamb. It just not that hard to tell the
> posting of a little boy.
No, it most certainly isn't.
> This little boy stated that DIR hasn't a proven
> safety record. Do you think that's true? Nevermind - this is probably
that
> lack of sense of humor someone referred to earlier about me.
Do ya think?
chilly
and Quest seem to be missing a significant female audience for all the
posturing and stunting that's going on over there.
Cptn Harry "Snapper" Organs <vka...@netaxs.com> wrote in message
news:9kta5b$4...@netaxs.com...
Michael Wolf
<f1qc7.58731$sM.15...@news2.rdc1.ab.home.com>:
>Well, the confusing part about all that then, wouldn't ya say, is that
>tech and Quest seem to be missing a significant female audience for all
>the posturing and stunting that's going on over there.
Oh God, no! You want to make it even worse?
--
Michael Wolf
-----
Life's a beach and then you dive
remove stopspam to reply
Michael Wolf
>In article <9krl5p$s...@netaxs.com>, Vinnie the Bullet
><vka...@netaxs.com> wrote:
>
>€ The word stroke was coined specifically in the context of tech/cave
>€ diving.
>
>You have no idea how, when, or where it was coined.
>
>You weren't there.
>
Where you?
Paul Schilter
Maybe if he can't understand Mike, Jammer could interpret for him.
Twenty four line posts should do it.
Paul
"Brian Wagner" <bwa...@mr.marconimed.com> wrote in message
news:3B71A58C...@mr.marconimed.com...
> Jim Holcomb wrote:
> >
> > You're just not capable of a serious discussion, are you? I responded
to
> > private emails by posting my definition of a stroke - a word I seldom
use.
> > And I get playground crap.
>
> If you could think clearly, you'd see that he is giving you a
> serious response - you're just not getting it.
David M
> No "chilly" I'm not anyone's lost lamb. It just not that hard to tell the
> posting of a little boy. This little boy stated that DIR hasn't a proven
> safety record. Do you think that's true? Nevermind - this is probably
that
> lack of sense of humor someone referred to earlier about me.
Hmmm...perhaps you can't read to well or something. Mike said "no safety
advantage" not "no safety record".
"No safety advantage" means that there is no proof that DIR is safer than a
non-DIR. Incompetent or poorly trained divers would likely perish in equal
numbers diving either DIR or otherwise. In other words, DIR isn't going to
save the incompetent, untrained, hopelessly inexperienced or the like. I'd
say that pretty close to 100% of DIR divers are highly competent, and that
is why they don't die in as large numbers. If you compare them with a
sample of DIW divers with a similar experience/training/competency, then
you'd find negligable difference in "death rate".
"No safety record" is absurd. DIR has an excellent safety record. If resort
courses etc set their participants up DIR, there would be a crap safety
record in time. This does not reflect on the DIR approach.
HTH
David M
Matthias Voss
lower drysuit area, I suppose <g>
Matthias
chilly schrieb:
Lee Bell
> That's because females are missing some very important part in their
> lower drysuit area, I suppose <g>
Didn't you read my "old guy" post? It's because women could not pass the
physical in the old days, you know, catch a goat for it's bladder (air
source) and a horse for hair to weave the harness.
Lee.
Lee Bell
> Techdiver and Quest have alot of good info, you have to seperate the wheat
> from the chaff just like here
Quest may have good information but, if so, nobody's real interested in
sharing it, at least not without a fee. The tech list hasn't had shit since
I first subscribed, except of course, constant complaints about the
Rec.Scuba regulars. The amusing thing is that a substantial portion of the
posts on the techlist are, in fact, nothing but afterthoughts by those who
consider themselves special. Take a good look at the headers. A lot of the
posts to the list are simply carbon copies, a second thought from people who
didn't have much of a first one.
Lee
Lee
Lee Bell
> You are a little boy, Mike. Thanks for the input, though.
Name calling, Jim?
H. NED Huntzinger
>
> Techdiver makes me laugh - the number of fuckheads that are posing as
> tough, macho guys there is amazing. Something about diving seems to be
> bring out the testicles.
Its all a side effect of "shrinkage" :-)
-hh
Lee Bell
> No "chilly" I'm not anyone's lost lamb. It just not that hard to tell the
> posting of a little boy. This little boy stated that DIR hasn't a proven
> safety record. Do you think that's true?
Jim, we've tried to tell you that you have to read carefully and think about
the posts here. You missed several admitedly subtle points:
1. As far as I know, we don't have a way to define who DIR is and I've not
seen a speck of evidence regarding "their" safety record. In short, yes, I
think it's true that DIR hasn't proven a safety record.
2. Even if you are referring to WKPP, who I think has proven their safety
record relative to their project dives, there isn't a record for them
relative to recreational diving and that's the audience here.
Lee
Lee Bell
> I'd say that pretty close to 100% of DIR divers are highly competent, and
that
> is why they don't die in as large numbers.
I wonder if that is true. More importantly, I wonder how long it will be
true. Generally speaking, today's DIR-L divers started some other way and,
as they progressed as divers, sought and found ways to dive that better
matched their needs, eventually taking a DIR-L path. That kind of
experience and development tends to imply competence. Of course if you use
a strict definition of DIR, then you're probably right. The problem is, you
don't find many pure DIR divers outside of WKPP project dives. Even some
WKPP members dive computers sometimes.
Today, however, there is a very strong movement to enlist new divers into
the DIR philosophy. Quite a few DIR divers are almost certainly being
affected by the same kind of hero worship that Lloyd Bridges (Seahunt)
and/or Jacques Cousteau instilled in us older divers. Just like my first
knife was a foot long and weighed enough to let me dump a bunch of lead,
these folks are embracing the DIR configuration without an understanding of
all the non gear things that go along with it. As suggested by at least one
other group member, they probably are not any more safe and may not even be
as safe as any other kind of diver. We all know that these folks exist,
they're the ones that most often tell everyone else how the DIR
configuration is the only acceptable configuration for any kind of diving.
FWIW, I think the DIR configuration is the most versatile configuration and
is suitable for pretty much any kind of diving, but that's not the same
thing as being the best for everything and everyone.
I think the problem with DIR is going to get worse. Others have brought it
up in a different context, but there are two primary reasons for my concern:
1. GUE, possibly the strongest training supporter of DIR, is considering
offering entry level education. This will expose an increased number of
divers, not all of whom will turn out to be responsible divers, to the DIR
system. More exposure is bound to translate to more problems.
2. As GUE grows, which it has to do to survive, quality will necessarily
become more difficult to ensure. It's easy to say this won't be allowed to
happen, but even easier to show how easily it can. Halcyon, which no matter
what is said, has a close relationship with GUE and the DIR movement used to
make only top quality equipment, better than any of the competition. I'm
sure nobody here missed the complaints about Halcyon equipment a few months
ago. Hopefully, Halcyon has patched their holes, but the fact that problems
exited at all kind of indicates what happens when someone is spread too
thin. If I recall correctly, JJ is kind of central to both Halcyon and GUE,
right?
Lee
H. NED Huntzinger
>
> A "stroke" is an individual who is of moderate intelligence and has been
> exposed to a safer way of doing something but chooses not to (usually driven
> by ego).
> By definition - A newbie cannot be a stroke because they are still in the
> learning stage. A "two weekender a year" cannot be a stroke because odds are
> they've had no exposure nor care to. Someone of less than moderate
> intelligence cannot be a stroke because they may not understand the concept.
> A recreational diver beginning his training into the technical realm cannot
> be a stroke because he, too, is in the learning stage.
> A "stroke", by definition, is one who continues to operate unsafely WHEN HE
> KNOWS he is operating unsafely.
> Does that clear anything up?
Personally, no. The reason why was because I was already familiar with
this particular definition, so it is nothing new to me.
The problem with this definition is twofold. First, there are some
nuances of it that I personally disagree with, such as the 2x/year, but
they are relatively minor. The second part is how this definition has
subsequently been applied by what I believe to be official DIR
representatives or at least its advocates. Without pointing fingers - -
because they have often come from multiple sources - - the 'stroke
corrolaries' have included:
Claim 1: DIR is the ONLY way to go, anything else is unsafe
Claim 2: If you're not DIR, you're either an ignorant fool or a stroke
The first was risk management until it condemned all others. The second
is simply a continuation of this pattern of offensive, unprofessional
statements.
Claim 3: Equipment standardization takes priority over all other needs
As a tool for risk management, it has a place. How overridingly
significant it is depends on how much risk there is to be mitigated.
The application of this to some forms of diving is logically
overextended.
Claim 4: What George says is gospel.
As a tool for risk management, it also has a place. But it also can be
overextended to illogical extremes. What color underwear I choose to
wear has absolutely no bearing on the safety of my diving, regardless of
what George may say about it. And in the advancement of the science of
diving, we should accept no one's claims based on faith alone.
All in all, there's just enough things wrong with 'DIR by Trey' that
while I may adopt each piece independantly, I refuse to embrace it as a
whole through blind faith. I reserve the right to make informed
decisions, instead of having someone else dictate them to me, and this
includes PADI, NAUI, YMCA, SSI, ANSI, BSAC, TDI, CMAS, etc, as well as
GUE, DIR, and WKPP.
And Mike's "Team Stroke" is really not that much more than a statement
of rejection for an inflexible, neo-conformist all-or-nothing mindset
that is representative of the core belief value behind these
corrolaries.
I personally find DIR's apparent need to label all outsiders as
'strokes' to be insulting and highly offensive, so I will not associate
or allign myself with them.
-hh
H. NED Huntzinger
>
> And as to "forcing" DIR down peoples throat, one of Mike Gray's big claims
> as to why he is so adamant against DIR...
Then why is it that I read in the Techdiver archives that "spreading the
word" to the Rec Diver is an explicitly stated goal of DIR? It seems
that despite claims here to the contrary that GUE will stay small that
someone has expansion in their agenda...
...and with the GUE courses costing 2x-3x PADI, the threat to our
wallets just might be transformed from "Put Another Dollar In", to
"Getting Utterly Expensive" (TM).
> I have been on the boat with Mike
> many times in the last 4 years, and NEVER "pushed" him on changing gear
> configurations, or in any way degraded his gear.
Do I recall some talk about superior streamlining? BTW, just _where_
are those drag values? Wouldn't quantitative drag values be a clear way
to advance the *science* of diving, or is all that stuff in the GUE
Mission statement merely marketing fluff?
> DIR faces this same issue, being blamed constantly for comments made by
> people who no more represent DIR than the troublemakers in Buffalo represent
> Canadians.
Yes, but the picture changes when we realize that said toublemakers are
merely copying their behaviour from DIR's leadership. Eliminate the
problem at the top and its copycats will wither away.
-hh
H. NED Huntzinger
>
> No "chilly" I'm not anyone's lost lamb. It just not that hard to tell the
> posting of a little boy.
I'm really afraid that you entered into this dialog with biases and
preconceived notions, which lead to forgone conclusions, regardless of
what was said, which is unfortunate.
> This little boy stated that DIR hasn't a proven safety record. Do you think that's true?
So where is the proof? Provide a paper on the subject that lays out
the statistics and I'll read it. Until then, the claims are
_unsubstantiated_. Anyone who knows of the scientific process knows
the necessity of this...see that GUE Mission Statement again.
FWIW, I already know that all of the WKPP dives that Trey has supervised
over the past decade sum up to a quite paltry quantity, roughly equal to
the number of dives done by recreational divers every two weeks.
Furthermore, we also know that there have been accidents and deaths
amongst DIR divers, which is recognized as not not being the same as
GIII's WKPP DIR divers and their alledged "perfect" safety record, with
incidents of "slobbitis"...which is generally unacceptable to rec
divers...conveniently being ignored.
> Nevermind - this is probably that
> lack of sense of humor someone referred to earlier about me.
I would suggest that you take a step back to first see the broader
picture.
For example, what constitutes a successful dive?
-hh
Dan Volker
"H. NED Huntzinger" <{rm_to_reply}hum...@webspan.net> wrote in message
news:3B727E...@webspan.net...
> Dan Volker wrote:
> >
> > And as to "forcing" DIR down peoples throat, one of Mike Gray's big
claims
> > as to why he is so adamant against DIR...
>
> Then why is it that I read in the Techdiver archives that "spreading the
> word" to the Rec Diver is an explicitly stated goal of DIR? It seems
> that despite claims here to the contrary that GUE will stay small that
> someone has expansion in their agenda...
Basic Kantian philosophy----This is a "duty" we have.
>
> ...and with the GUE courses costing 2x-3x PADI, the threat to our
> wallets just might be transformed from "Put Another Dollar In", to
> "Getting Utterly Expensive" (TM).
>
>
>
> > I have been on the boat with Mike
> > many times in the last 4 years, and NEVER "pushed" him on changing gear
> > configurations, or in any way degraded his gear.
>
> Do I recall some talk about superior streamlining? BTW, just _where_
> are those drag values? Wouldn't quantitative drag values be a clear way
> to advance the *science* of diving, or is all that stuff in the GUE
> Mission statement merely marketing fluff?
>
How's this.....I will suit up DIR, Mike can suit up Mike style. each of us
getts towed by the boat up to about 6 mph, and we have the tow rope tied to
a spring scale, that shows the "weight" , which is really the drag, of the
individual being towed. The speed will be higher than any swimming
conditions, but it will exagerate worse case scenarios enough to show a big
difference.
But really, as I said earlier, drag for recreational diving is not nearly as
big a deal as many of the other issues.
>
> > DIR faces this same issue, being blamed constantly for comments made by
> > people who no more represent DIR than the troublemakers in Buffalo
represent
> > Canadians.
>
> Yes, but the picture changes when we realize that said toublemakers are
> merely copying their behaviour from DIR's leadership. Eliminate the
> problem at the top and its copycats will wither away.
>
But the "leadership" does not post on rec.scuba. If Jarrod posted here, it
would be calm and carefully articulated.
As it is, there is no relevant behavior to copy----behavior on the tech list
is very different by George, because people are on the list for entirely
different reasons than they are on rec.scuba.
Regards,
Dan
mike gray
>
> : Hey, like you said, you're proud to be associated with them. Oh wait! I'm
> : terribly sorry, you said the opposite.
>
> : I gotta tell ya, if this is what they are raising over there at Techdiver
> : and Quest, it's pretty scary. I mean DIR sounds like one helluva way to
> : dive but some of the guys that are speaking for it . . . Sheesh, (walking
> : away, shaking my head)
>
> tough, macho guys there is amazing. Something about diving seems to be
> bring out the testicles.
Which is why I avoid cold water diving.
m
mike gray
>
> No "chilly" I'm not anyone's lost lamb. It just not that hard to tell the
> posting of a little boy. This little boy stated that DIR hasn't a proven
> safety record. Do you think that's true? Nevermind - this is probably that
> lack of sense of humor someone referred to earlier about me.
Having seen right through me, I guess yer now gonna lay out the stats on
DIR's proven safety record and really make me look like a fool.
m
mike gray
Naw, I just had a birthday. Jimmie made it a little easier.
m
Jim Holcomb
view! And I agree on many points!
The misapplication of the word "stroke" into the recreational realm is
misfortunate (at best) and stupid (at worst). And more times than not is
spewed from the mouth of an idiot.
All other diving is unsafe. Well, I differ. I DO believe that the DIR
configuration coupled with the DIR philosophy is SAFER. Do I believe that
all other is unsafe? No. It's case by case - person by person. Do I feel
like Mr. Jones with $10,000 worth of dive shop clipped all over him is
unsafe? Yes.
George Irvine, III. Although there are some on here who would lead you
believe that I was sent by "God" himself to stir up shit on rec. scuba, I
think his internet personality SUCKS! He and his team have probably done
more to advance underwater exploration and dive medicine (by conducting
experiments the federal government wouldn't even allow goats to be used
for) than any other group in the history of diving. However, the animosity
created by the tone of the discussion earlier in the DIR movement will be
hard to overcome.
Thanks again for the response,
Jim Holcomb
"H. NED Huntzinger" <{rm_to_reply}hum...@webspan.net> wrote in message
news:3B727E...@webspan.net...
Suds
Suds
--
In Four States: Texas, Ohio, Georgia, and Arkansas, it is illegal to sell a
vibrator. Yet in all of these states, a person can easily purchase a
handgun. I've never heard of anyone committing mass murder with a vibrator!
--From "The Vagina Monologues"
"chilly" <sla...@home.com> wrote in message
news:f1qc7.58731$sM.15...@news2.rdc1.ab.home.com...
Suds
books, steak knives (?!), lots of cash, and an Oval Office special that
would make any President salute the flag. Oh, and I had to mow the yard but
only the back. C|;^{)
Suds
--
In Four States: Texas, Ohio, Georgia, and Arkansas, it is illegal to sell a
vibrator. Yet in all of these states, a person can easily purchase a
handgun. I've never heard of anyone committing mass murder with a vibrator!
--From "The Vagina Monologues"
"mike gray" <oxm...@worldnet.att.net> wrote in message
news:3B728DC8...@worldnet.att.net...
Matthias Voss
"H. NED Huntzinger" schrieb:
> For example, what constitutes a successful dive?
An even number of (descent +ascents)
a goal achieved
having had fun
have advanced in knowledge/ performance
evaluated something as good/bad
feeling/ being well afterwards
just my cc
Matthias
Lee Bell
> How's this.....I will suit up DIR, Mike can suit up Mike style. each of
us
> getts towed by the boat up to about 6 mph, and we have the tow rope tied
to
> a spring scale, that shows the "weight" , which is really the drag, of the
> individual being towed. The speed will be higher than any swimming
> conditions, but it will exagerate worse case scenarios enough to show a
big
> difference.
I have the boat, the lines, one of the spring scales and enough of a desire
to help to buy the gas. I'll buy a matching spring scale if I have to. I'm
not, however, real fond of a 6 mph tow. That seems fast enough to cost
someone a mask or other gear and might create too much drag for the kind of
spring scales that are reasonably available (fishing scales). Some less
agressive speed might be better, something like as slow as my 25 footer (or
my 15 footer if conditions allow) will go towing two divers in the water.
If you want a real test, however, you're going to have to trade gear to
eliminate any effects of different body size on results and I suppose you're
going to need an observer to confirm the honesty of the participants (note,
I said confirm, not ensure). The issue of drag has been unresolved
(unproven) for long enough. Let's do something about it.
Lee
Jammer Six
<vka...@netaxs.com> wrote:
€ Did I ever tell you that deep down, I am the sensitive type?
Oh, god. A SNAG.
--
"C'mon, you sons of bitches, you want to live forever?"
-Sergeant Major Dan Daley
Jammer Six
<vka...@netaxs.com> wrote:
€ Nah, I meant testicles.
€
€ Testosterone is good, up to a point. When you let your balls lead you
€ around, instead of your brains..... that's when the trouble starts.
€ They walk around swollen up like a bunch of bullfrogs, thinking they are
€ attracting female bullfrogs.
Ah, I see the problem.
Did she leave, or was she taken?
Jammer Six
<sla...@home.com> wrote:
€ Well, the confusing part about all that then, wouldn't ya say, is that tech
€ and Quest seem to be missing a significant female audience for all the
€ posturing and stunting that's going on over there.
The Quest list goes for quality, not quantity, in all things.
You're right, this shows up in the women there.
Jammer Six
<michae...@teleatlasstopspam.com> wrote:
€ Where you?
Nope.
But then, I'm not on here, trying to define it, either.
Dan Volker
I don't mind trading BC's, but if you think I'm going to put on his smelly
wetsuit, or use his regulator (the mouthpiece...God, the horror...;-)
....there is only so much I will do in pursuit of science :-)
Regards,
Dan
"Lee Bell" <lee...@ix.netcom.com> wrote in message
news:9ku8oj$gbl$1...@slb4.atl.mindspring.net...
Cptn Harry Snapper Organs
: This little boy stated that DIR hasn't a proven
: safety record.
DIR = great safety record diving the WKPP, with a highly trained team of
divers and significant amount of support.
Now think about the context of the discussion - the hordes of unwashed
ignorant, farm-animal stupid rec divers.
Let see if the phrase "proven safety record" still applies here.
Cptn Harry Snapper Organs
: Well, the confusing part about all that then, wouldn't ya say, is that tech
: and Quest seem to be missing a significant female audience for all the
: posturing and stunting that's going on over there.
Before someone can successfully mate, he has to establish his position in
the pack. Since God III is indisputably the alpha male - and
successfully wards off challengers with invective and invocations of doom
- the rest of the pecking order needs to be established.
By winning favor with the Alpha Male, members of the pack hope to attain
Beta Male status.
Cptn Harry Snapper Organs
: Didn't you read my "old guy" post? It's because women could not pass the
: physical in the old days, you know, catch a goat for it's bladder (air
: source) and a horse for hair to weave the harness.
You mean to say you actually wove the harness yourself??? Isnt that a
woman's job?
Vandit
(I think I just ruined my whole sensitive image with this one)
Michael Wolf
>In article <Xns90F86D7...@134.222.94.13>, Michael Wolf
><michae...@teleatlasstopspam.com> wrote:
>
>€ Where you?
>
>Nope.
>
>But then, I'm not on here, trying to define it, either.
>
So, you're saying that you don't know yourself what the definition of a
'stroke' is ? You're just using the term anyway?
--
Michael Wolf
-----
Life's a beach and then you dive
remove stopspam to reply
Brian Wagner
>
> As it is, there is no relevant behavior to copy----behavior on the tech list
> is very different by George, because people are on the list for entirely
> different reasons than they are on rec.scuba.
What would those reasons be, that they want someone to talk dirty
to them?
Dan Volker
While many have pointed out repeatedly that in recreational diving, our
choices are not based on a "life and death" struggle, on the tech and cave
lists, the discussions there often "do" revolve around life and death
issues. This "amps up" the stakes, the emotions, and the scale of arguements
there.
Regards,
Dan V.
"Brian Wagner" <bwa...@mr.marconimed.com> wrote in message
news:3B72BCCA...@mr.marconimed.com...
chilly
Cptn Harry "Snapper" Organs <vka...@netaxs.com> wrote in message
news:9kub8l$6...@netaxs.com...
mike gray
>
> Hey, me too. What did you get present wise? I got a new dive light, some
> books, steak knives (?!), lots of cash, and an Oval Office special that
> would make any President salute the flag. Oh, and I had to mow the yard but
> only the back. C|;^{)
I got four cards, all making jokes about my age. Then I went out and
mowed the yard, back and front.
m
Brian Wagner
>
> Brian,
> While many have pointed out repeatedly that in recreational diving, our
> choices are not based on a "life and death" struggle, on the tech and cave
> lists, the discussions there often "do" revolve around life and death
> issues. This "amps up" the stakes, the emotions, and the scale of arguements
> there.
Prevailing on the basis of one's ability to shout profanity is
fine for barroom discussions of whose football team is best, but
when deciding serious life and death issues, facts and reason
must carry the day. To put it another way, if I'm going to be
deep within a submerged cave, and something goes wrong, I'd
rather be buddied with a Vulcan than a Klingon, unless, of
course, you think a viable solution to an emergency involves
using a bat'leth to dig through several hundred feet of
limestone.
Brian Wagner
>
> the pack. Since God III is indisputably the alpha male - and
> successfully wards off challengers with invective and invocations of doom
> - the rest of the pecking order needs to be established.
>
> By winning favor with the Alpha Male, members of the pack hope to attain
> Beta Male status.
Well, you've pretty much explained Jack Farmer.
mike gray
Only if we do it in warm water. Lets also do a comparison between the
standard DIR thing and one of those $200 Oceanic BCs. They look even
slicker than my rig. Then we get an advance from Rodale's and start drag
testing all sorts of gear.
m
Jammer Six
<michae...@teleatlasstopspam.com> wrote:
€ So, you're saying that you don't know yourself what the definition of a
€ 'stroke' is ? You're just using the term anyway?
I didn't say any such thing.
I said you aren't qualified to define it.
Up to speed, now?
Jammer Six
<vka...@netaxs.com> wrote:
€ Let see if the phrase "proven safety record" still applies here.
Hell, no.
Jammer Six
<vka...@netaxs.com> wrote:
€ By winning favor with the Alpha Male, members of the pack hope to attain
€ Beta Male status.
There are other alphas, who leave and form their own pack.
Their success depends on the success of their various methods.