O2 tank explodes - San Diego 6-3-00
Michael J. Blitch
Read the third story down.
Michael J. Blitch
BTW, I read a message somewhere just now that the tank contents my
have been something other than what was labled on the take. Rumor has
it that the EAN was something like 78%. If this is true, this is might
be necessary to start bring out the stroke mix check off list.
MHK
Michael J. Blitch <mbli...@tampabay.rr.com> wrote in message
> BTW, I read a message somewhere just now that the tank contents my
> have been something other than what was labled on the take. Rumor has
> it that the EAN was something like 78%. If this is true, this is might
> be necessary to start bring out the stroke mix check off list.
Mike,
The story is true. It happened to a friend of mine. His name is John Cain
and I spoke with him yesterday in the hospital.
The 80% issue aside for a minute ( I'll get to that later ), he sounded in
good spirits but he was pretty banged up. He has 1st, 2nd and 3rd degree
burns on varying parts of his body. He underwent surgery yesterday and is
expected to be hospitalized for about a week. I'll call him tomorrow and
get an update.
But as to the facts, He was working with a bunch of open water students and
was planning on doing 5 very shallow dives with different students during
the day. He wasn't even taking the gas in the water, he just wanted to
breathe it as an extra measure of protection during SIT's. He cranked on
the bottle while leaning on the back of his truck. His arm was leaning on
the 1st stage and when he opened the valve it ignited. He was using the
Atomic T1/T2 and swears that it was 02 cleaned. The tank ( AL 40 ) was in
current hydro.
His wetsuit caught on fire and by the time he was able to get the flames
extinguished he has suffered some bad burns.
The REALLY sad part of this is several fold. John is really a great guy and
there were several other diver's in the area ( from a competing shop ) and
when John was getting into the ambulance they were heard to say that he
deserved it for diving with elevated 02 mixes. Moreover, they even went on
the local news channels that evening and continued this tirade saying that
by not diving within recreational mixes that it was his own fault. Nor did
they help when he was on fire..
As soon as I know more details about the diver's and shop I'll provide them.
It's one thing not to agree with someone's diving philosophy, but it's a
completely different matter when someone is on fire to stand around and play
Monday morning quarterback. Hell, I'd even help BLACK if he get's in
trouble this weekend ;-)
As to the 80%, John and I talked about this 3 weeks ago and John ( along
with Perry Armour ) is very involved in setting up my DIR demo in San Diego
slated for July 16th. In fact when John was in L.A. a month ago his comment
to me was help de-strokify me. While it was said TIC at the time, my sense
is whether he has 80% or 100% this may still have happened. But I did tell
him that if he were on any of my trips that I would make him blend last that
evening if he insisted on 80% ;-)
Also, he did say that all O-rings were viton. As soon as I know more I'll
update.
Regards
mike_...@my-deja.com
the photo. 78%? Isn't that an oxygen label on the cylinder?
In article <7hctjs8g0uairbtv1...@4ax.com>,
Michael J. Blitch <mbli...@tampabay.rr.com> wrote:
> On Wed, 07 Jun 2000 20:30:04 GMT, Michael J. Blitch
> <mbli...@tampabay.rr.com> wrote:
>
> >http://www.primenews.com/sdhnj.html
> >
> >Read the third story down.
>
> BTW, I read a message somewhere just now that the tank contents my
> have been something other than what was labled on the take. Rumor has
> it that the EAN was something like 78%. If this is true, this is might
> be necessary to start bring out the stroke mix check off list.
>
Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/
Before you buy.
Michael J. Blitch
>> BTW, I read a message somewhere just now that the tank contents my
>> have been something other than what was labled on the take. Rumor has
>> it that the EAN was something like 78%. If this is true, this is might
>> be necessary to start bring out the stroke mix check off list.
>The 80% issue aside for a minute ( I'll get to that later ), he sounded in
>good spirits but he was pretty banged up. He has 1st, 2nd and 3rd degree
>burns on varying parts of his body. He underwent surgery yesterday and is
>expected to be hospitalized for about a week. I'll call him tomorrow and
>get an update.
Glad that your friend was not in worse shape and the 80% issue
asside...have you asked him why there was an oxygen sticker on his
tank where it was obviously not the case? Having a mislabeled tank
like that is a hell of a lot more dangerous than any mix he could
considered using while diving!
MHK
Michael J. Blitch <mbli...@tampabay.rr.com> wrote in message
news:m1ftjso31klou2lod...@4ax.com...
> Glad that your friend was not in worse shape and the 80% issue
> asside...have you asked him why there was an oxygen sticker on his
> tank where it was obviously not the case?
That's part of my demo ;-) . Actually when I saw him a couple of weeks ago
we were diving recreationally so we didn't have gas so I didn't know about
the stickers.
When I do local demo's I usually bring my tanks to show proper tank
markings..
Later
Miranda Alldritt
Best wishes to John for a speedy recovery.
Do we know if it was actually the first stage or something in the tank
valve that originally ignited? Is anybody investigating this? Maybe
it's too hard to tell given the destruction that would surely result
from something like this. I don't know ... but it would sure be nice to
have an answer - from your description it sounds like John had taken at
least as much care in cleaning as many of us do.
The only possible issue I can think of with the 80/20 thing that would
relate to this incident is what you end up getting your mix topped
with. O2 bottle and O2 reg only ever sees oxygen which isn't going to
have any hydrocarbons in it.
Miranda
MHK wrote:
>
> Michael J. Blitch <mbli...@tampabay.rr.com> wrote in message
>
> > BTW, I read a message somewhere just now that the tank contents my
> > have been something other than what was labled on the take. Rumor has
> > it that the EAN was something like 78%. If this is true, this is might
> > be necessary to start bring out the stroke mix check off list.
>
> Mike,
>
> The story is true. It happened to a friend of mine. His name is John Cain
> and I spoke with him yesterday in the hospital.
>
> The 80% issue aside for a minute ( I'll get to that later ), he sounded in
> good spirits but he was pretty banged up. He has 1st, 2nd and 3rd degree
> burns on varying parts of his body. He underwent surgery yesterday and is
> expected to be hospitalized for about a week. I'll call him tomorrow and
> get an update.
>
--
"The sea has no compassion, no faith, no law, no memory. -o)
Its fickleness is to be held true to men's purposes only by an /\\
undaunted resolution and by a sleepless, armed, jealous _\_v
vigilance...."
dave grey
percentages of oxygen due to the titanium content of the 1st. stage.Can't
remember which model (s) they were referring to,but it was factory
recommendation.
Later,
"MHK" <mhk...@PRODIGY.NET> wrote in message
news:8hmcqd$2voc$1...@newssvr03-int.news.prodigy.com...
Case E. Harris
market (as far as I know) you'll find they're not recommended for high O2
use. The main reason is the company's unwillingness (understandably so) to
accept liability for just such an accident.
There was also a thread on techdiver a while back about Titanium and O2, and
several folks who were "in the know" did mention that Ti and O2 don't mix
real well at higher pressures....
It goes back to the first hour of any good blending class.... use low
friction metals (Monel, Copper, Brass) for O2 systems....(an interesting
side note: Stainless is NOT recommended for o2 fill systems due to its lower
ignition "temperature.")
--
Case Harris
div...@cyberdude.com
dave grey <gr...@istar.ca> wrote in message
news:kaC%4.12292$Ip.3...@cac1.rdr.news.psi.ca...
Tim Tyler
> The REALLY sad part of this is several fold. John is really a great guy and
> there were several other diver's in the area ( from a competing shop ) and
> when John was getting into the ambulance they were heard to say that he
> deserved it for diving with elevated 02 mixes. Moreover, they even went on
> the local news channels that evening and continued this tirade saying that
> by not diving within recreational mixes that it was his own fault. Nor did
> they help when he was on fire..
Hmm, sounds like the other guys must have been 'DIR' divers! Did they
label
your friend a "stroke" & whip out some body-bags?
--
Tim Tyler
tty...@mich.com
http://www.mich.com/~ttyler/
dave grey
had invested a fair amount of time in discussions with the Atomic
manufactures.His comments were far beyond the usual liability stuff you get
from manufacturers..
Interesting about stainless,though.Didn't know that.Thanks for the info.
Later,
"Case E. Harris" <div...@cyberdude.com> wrote in message
news:sjtvnbi...@corp.supernews.com...
Rich Lesperance
Tim Tyler <tty...@mich.com> wrote
>
> Hmm, sounds like the other guys must have been 'DIR' divers! Did they
> label
> your friend a "stroke" & whip out some body-bags?
>
Guys like you make DIR divers look _good_.
Keep it up, Tim. You, too, Dr. Black.
Everyone used to be down on DIR divers because of "bad manners" or some
such.
We really owe guys like you a debt of thanks.
Now, why are you afraid to talk to me? I'm still waiting for an explanation,
coward.
Rich L
ghard...@my-deja.com
is no doubt that the reg popped.
Icarus
>
> The REALLY sad part of this is several fold. John is really a great guy
and
> there were several other diver's in the area ( from a competing shop ) and
> when John was getting into the ambulance they were heard to say that he
> deserved it for diving with elevated 02 mixes. Moreover, they even went
on
> the local news channels that evening and continued this tirade saying that
> by not diving within recreational mixes that it was his own fault. Nor
did
> they help when he was on fire..
That truly is disgusting. Its no different from anyone else that uses a
tragedy to advance their own adgenda.
Please publish the names of the "induhviduals" as soon as you find out. I'd
really like to avoid them.
Of course, as I live in the Southeast that will be easy :-)
Yes, I'm the guy who is looking for a DIR demo in the Southeast. Just let me
know where.
Dennis
>
> As soon as I know more details about the diver's and shop I'll provide
them.
> It's one thing not to agree with someone's diving philosophy, but it's a
> completely different matter when someone is on fire to stand around and
play
> Monday morning quarterback. Hell, I'd even help BLACK if he get's in
> trouble this weekend ;-)
>
<snip>
mike_...@my-deja.com
would be the first person to assist someone in need. The DIR divers I
know would and have helped even the biggest strokes when they get into
trouble.
Tim, you really have stooped low on this one. I think everyone can see
what type of person you are now. Thank you for revealing yourself so
that we can consider your history on future anti-DIR posts.
Mike
In article <393F06A1...@mich.com>,
Tim Tyler <tty...@mich.com> wrote:
> MHK wrote:
>
> > The REALLY sad part of this is several fold. John is really a
great guy and
> > there were several other diver's in the area ( from a competing
shop ) and
> > when John was getting into the ambulance they were heard to say
that he
> > deserved it for diving with elevated 02 mixes. Moreover, they even
went on
> > the local news channels that evening and continued this tirade
saying that
> > by not diving within recreational mixes that it was his own fault.
Nor did
> > they help when he was on fire..
>
> Hmm, sounds like the other guys must have been 'DIR' divers! Did
they
> label
> your friend a "stroke" & whip out some body-bags?
>
> --
> Tim Tyler
> tty...@mich.com
> http://www.mich.com/~ttyler/
>
Ron Fuller
>I heard that as well, probably from the same source. Now I have seen
>the photo. 78%? Isn't that an oxygen label on the cylinder?
>
As already covered in this thread the tank was labeled for a upcoming
demo.
Actually I'm glad it wasn't labeled NITROX, think of the
consternation caused if the title of the post was NITROX tanks burns?
BTW I also know John and when he isn't scuba diving he's sky diving.
I was surprised when I found out it who it was that got burned, he's
well qualified to teach tech diving.
Best Regards
Ron in San Diego
Diving in San Diego
http://www.diegoweb.com/diving
r...@diegoweb.com
SigX...@scubadiving.com
caught fire. This is why it IS important to follow regulator
manufacturers instructions regarding max O2 percents. This is not just
because manufacturers want to mindlessly limit their liability. Only
the manufacturer knows what metals and materials (other than the
obvious when the selling point is Ti) were used to build the reg. As
many of you are aware, different metals react differently with oxygen.
As far as the 80% issue goes, there was less of a chance of this
happening with 80% than with 100%. So those of you who are talking out
your asses about him not being DIR would have increased his chances of
this happening with 100%. I also noticed that the EANx cylinder sticker
was from TDI. Interesting to see standard TDI training in action.
Bill
Ron Fuller
>
>MHK <mhk...@PRODIGY.NET> wrote in message
>news:8hmcqd$2voc$1...@newssvr03-int.news.prodigy.com...
><snip>
>>
>> The REALLY sad part of this is several fold. John is really a great guy
>and
>> there were several other diver's in the area ( from a competing shop ) and
>> when John was getting into the ambulance they were heard to say that he
>> deserved it for diving with elevated 02 mixes. Moreover, they even went
>on
>> the local news channels that evening and continued this tirade saying that
>> by not diving within recreational mixes that it was his own fault. Nor
>did
>> they help when he was on fire..
>
>That truly is disgusting. Its no different from anyone else that uses a
>tragedy to advance their own adgenda.
>
>Please publish the names of the "induhviduals" as soon as you find out. I'd
>really like to avoid them.
>Of course, as I live in the Southeast that will be easy :-)
>
>Yes, I'm the guy who is looking for a DIR demo in the Southeast. Just let me
>know where.
>
>Dennis
At least one person knocking John on TV, was the owner of Ocean
Enterprises. He made the local channel 10 news.
Charlie Hammond
In article <8hoh04$58p$1...@nnrp1.deja.com>,
>John's O2 CYLINDER did not explode! His titanium regulator obviously
Is it know whether the fire started in the first stage or second stage?
--
Charlie Hammond -- Compaq Computer Corporation -- Pompano Beach FL USA
(ham...@peek.ppb.cpqcorp.net -- remove "@not" when replying)
All opinions expressed are my own and not necessarily my employer's.
MHK
Michael J. Blitch <mbli...@tampabay.rr.com> wrote in message
news:aebtjsk6vd24460i7...@4ax.com...
> http://www.primenews.com/sdhnj.html
I just hung up with John. He just completed his final skin graph and sounds
in real good spirits. Maybe it's the morphine ;-)
But I did get a chance to get a few more facts. As I mentioned in my
initial post John is a real nice guy and has specifically requested that I
NOT mention the name of the shop or the guys that were on the news
badmouthing him. But what they added in there news report was that by
bringing a 80% mix to the dive site John was so irresponsible that he put
every diver in the vicinity in life and death danger. What assholes!!!!!!!
But back to John. He has told me that the worst of the injuries were
actually on his leg. He doesn't recall ( as it happened so quickly ) but
his distinct impression was that the flames ignited both at the 1st stage
and through the 2nd stage. His arm was leaning on the tank and that
resulted in burns to his arm but the 2nd stage was hanging down and was by
his leg. And that's were most of the burns are.. Thankfully he wasn't
breathing the reg at the time..
The police have the tank, but unfortunately the Fire Captain who arrived at
the scene made the police bleed the tank dry. Accordingly there will be no
way to analyze the mix. John said that the policeman preferred NOT to empty
the tank for investigatory reasons, but that the Fire Capt. was in charge of
the scene and mandated that the tank be emptied.
So I'm not sure if we'll know exactly what happened, but John's recuperating
and is expected to be about 2 months before the graphs heal completely.
As to his state of mind, he joked with me that if I had any influence at
Halcyon could I expedite his order ( he had just placed a big order and was
planning to convert to DIR ). He hopes to be back diving soon enough and
given his condition he's got a real positive attitude.
He told me that Perry Armour had just left the hospital so maybe when Perry
get's a chance he'll give us a better accounting.
That's all for now...
Ross Bagley
[...snip...]
> Hmm, sounds like the other guys must have been 'DIR' divers! Did
>they label your friend a "stroke" & whip out some body-bags?
That's completely uncalled for.
After reading your past encounters with DIR posters, I figured you for
a fairly typical stubborn guy who likes the toys he's bought and
doesn't want to give them up. That's a natural feeling and one that
takes a lot of effort to work around, and I had hoped that continued
discussion and possibly demonstration might have increased your diving
safety and skills. I have plenty of friends like that, and I still
enjoy their company, even if they wouldn't be my first choice as a
dive buddy.
Now I know for a fact that you're just a complete raving asshole.
Ross
-- Ross Bagley & Associates http://www.rossbagley.com
"We don't write your software, we help you write your software better!"
tleemay
progress" - a phrase that Perry somewhat grined at when they were on the
boat with MHK and I last month.
I kinda feed bad now about giving him the business about his "stroke mix"
he left the boat with ;-).
GET WELL JOHN, the next GE trip is on me; but Perry still goes at full
price!
Ron Fuller wrote:
> mike_...@my-deja.com wrote:
>
> >I heard that as well, probably from the same source. Now I have seen
> >the photo. 78%? Isn't that an oxygen label on the cylinder?
> >
> As already covered in this thread the tank was labeled for a upcoming
> demo.
> Actually I'm glad it wasn't labeled NITROX, think of the
> consternation caused if the title of the post was NITROX tanks burns?
>
> BTW I also know John and when he isn't scuba diving he's sky diving.
> I was surprised when I found out it who it was that got burned, he's
> well qualified to teach tech diving.
> Best Regards
> Ron in San Diego
>
> Diving in San Diego
> http://www.diegoweb.com/diving
> r...@diegoweb.com
--
T. May
"To increase the quality and diversity of aquatic education. Founded by
conservationists, explorers and educators with a desire to see the mystery
of the underwater world explored, studied, protected and shared. We are
prepared to redefine the nature of aquatic activity in three specific
areas: education, research and exploration."
tleemay
MHK
Tim Tyler <tty...@mich.com> wrote in message
news:393F06A1...@mich.com...
>
> Hmm, sounds like the other guys must have been 'DIR' divers! Did they
> label
> your friend a "stroke" & whip out some body-bags?
Coming from some pussy that rats out people because they call them names of
the NG, you have no business making fun of anyone...
For those that don't know, Tim called ( or sent and e-mail I don't know
which one ) to a member of this NG's boss to try to get him in trouble
because poor little Timmy got flamed...
Timmy, I'd help anybody in trouble, even including a cowardice pussy like
yourself, I'd make sure that you were OK and then to you face I'd call you a
coward.
Man that was pretty low...
Hereinafter I will address you as COWARD..... Grow a pair and say it man to
man not this candy ass shit, behind the back bullshit.
If you don't have the balls to say it face to face then keep your mouth
shut...
Later COWARD
Tim Tyler
>
> In article <393F06A1...@mich.com>, Tim Tyler <tty...@mich.com> wrote:
>
> [...snip...]
>
> >they label your friend a "stroke" & whip out some body-bags?
>
Not really. I've witnessed all the mantra here about 'strokes,' and
seen the video ('Doing It Right II' or something like that) where the
God
of DIR dramatically says something along the lines of "...and if you're
diving
with 'strokes,' there is one more piece of gear you need..." & then he
pulls out
a body bag.
So if my comment damaged your psyche, I suggest you take it up with
your
god & some of his internet disciples.
I've defended the statement you challenged.
> After reading your past encounters with DIR posters, I figured you for
> a fairly typical stubborn guy who likes the toys he's bought and
> doesn't want to give them up. That's a natural feeling and one that
> takes a lot of effort to work around, and I had hoped that continued
> discussion and possibly demonstration might have increased your diving
> safety and skills.
My "diving & safety skills" are always subject to improvement,
regardless of whether or not I join your cult.
> I have plenty of friends like that, and I still
> enjoy their company, even if they wouldn't be my first choice as a
> dive buddy.
Sounds like you're violating one of the major commandments of your
religion.
> Now I know for a fact that you're just a complete raving asshole.
That may or may not be true, but for your delicate mental well-being,
you're welcome to use that as an excuse to not engage me in a rational
debate.
The DIR types sure like to boast about exact conformation &
discipline, but
they're full of a lot of wild rhetoric on all sides of issues here, i.e.
one guy that does something apparently dumb is a 'stroke,' whereas
someone else (MHK's
pal, in this case) that does something apparently dumb not only isn't a
'stroke,'
but merits a lot of frothy emotions in attacking someone (me!) who
sometimes gets
very amused by trying to hold DIR to a level of consistency and watching
the vitriol
& histrionics in response (no different than challenging anyone else's
religion).
The fact that the DIR crowd is a little confused as to how to handle
their normal
abundance of 'stroking' someone (non-DIR diver, of course) who does
something dumb
because MHK quickly waxed about how the guy is usually DIR (a
part-timer, I guess) is apparent.
But they've quickly adapted, overcome & improvised in this thread by
changing the focus to me! :)
I'm sure your god is pleased -- I know I am.
> Ross
mike_...@my-deja.com
is not saying watch a man burn. How did you make that great leap. You
are an idiot. Rational debate? I have seen your comments. I have
found nothing that resembles a rational debate.
As for being a stroke, by posts from those who know him, it is very
obvious that this guy most definitley is not a stroke. He is open
minded and striving to improve. You should try to listen a little
before you criticize. No one, not even the man who YOU call god,
claims to have always done everything right. That's odd isn't it, you
are the only one I've heard call him god. Anyway...what seperates
divers from strokes is that divers understand that there is a better
way and they strive to pursue that way. Get a clue before you can on
here spouting your rhetoric.
I haven't heard anyone say he should have been using a titanium reg
with high O2.
I'm not even going to try and explain how small a person must be to
make the comment that you did. I am confident that your lack of
character is self evident by your comments.
Mike
In article <393FF5F0...@mich.com>,
Ross Bagley
>Ross Bagley wrote:
>> In article <393F06A1...@mich.com>, Tim Tyler <tty...@mich.com> wrote:
>>> Hmm, sounds like the other guys must have been 'DIR' divers! Did
>>>they label your friend a "stroke" & whip out some body-bags?
>>
>>That's completely uncalled for.
> Not really. I've witnessed all the mantra here about 'strokes,'
>and seen the video ('Doing It Right II' or something like that) where
>the God of DIR dramatically says something along the lines of "...and
>if you're diving with 'strokes,' there is one more piece of gear you
>need..." & then he pulls out a body bag.
That's called rhetoric. It's a type of emotional argument intended to
bypass the typical rationalizations and dramatically demonstrate the
accepted risks of entering an overhead environment with someone that
you don't trust to take their responsibilities seriously. If you
don't like his rhetoric, fine. His point, however, is clear, which is
the goal of the rhetorical statement.
Your apparent point, that making rhetorical statements is equivalent
to standing idly by and making snide remarks while someone is burning
is absolutely amazing. Such actions are so far outside of the realm
of normal human behavior that I have serious difficulty reconciling
your apparent perspective with reality. I can only conclude that
you're so pissed off at Rich L and other DIR posters that you've lost
all ability to rationally discuss the topic.
> So if my comment damaged your psyche, I suggest you take it up
>with your god & some of his internet disciples.
My psyche is fine, thanks for the concern. On the other hand, your
continued defense of your original offensive statement is absolutely
beyond belief.
BTW, I think George is an ass and someone I would probably never
be friends with. Who cares? He's right about cave diving.
[...snip...]
> My "diving & safety skills" are always subject to improvement,
>regardless of whether or not I join your cult.
Not my cult. That's an ad hominem argument. I happen to see the
logic of many of the DIR arguments, but I'm not a DIR diver by any
stretch of the imagination. You're making it quite clear that you
have some extreme problems with some of the personalities on this
newsgroup and that those problems have really got your knickers in a
twist. Deal with whatever you need to deal with and come back when
you can discuss issues rationally.
>> I have plenty of friends like that, and I still
>> enjoy their company, even if they wouldn't be my first choice as a
>> dive buddy.
>
> Sounds like you're violating one of the major commandments of your
>religion.
Again with the ad hominem argument. I'm not a DIR diver. As a point
against this whole cult and religion obsession you seem to have, I've
never heard a DIR argument where the person who originally made the
argument was ever acknowledged. The argument either stands on its
own or it is dismissed as crack smoking.
>> Now I know for a fact that you're just a complete raving asshole.
>
> That may or may not be true, but for your delicate mental well-being,
>you're welcome to use that as an excuse to not engage me in a rational
>debate.
If you entered into an argument with any desire to debate rationally,
I might do so. With the display of blatant disregard for human
compassion and rational discussion in your last two posts, I'll have
to look elsewhere to find it.
> The DIR types sure like to boast about exact conformation &
>discipline, but they're full of a lot of wild rhetoric on all sides
>of issues here, i.e. one guy that does something apparently dumb is
>a 'stroke,' whereas someone else (MHK's pal, in this case) that does
>something apparently dumb not only isn't a 'stroke,' but merits a lot
>of frothy emotions in attacking someone (me!) who sometimes gets very
>amused
I have absolutely no difficulty with you getting all giggly about the
written missteps of DIR divers on rec.scuba or anywhere else. My
problem is when your statement goes well beyond criticism to
accusations of atrocious behavior. You seem to think that the two are
equivalent. I believe they are not and that you should be ashamed of
your remarks.
>by trying to hold DIR to a level of consistency and watching
>the vitriol & histrionics in response (no different than challenging
>anyone else's religion).
Your last two posts have absolutely nothing to do with this supposed
goal of yours.
> The fact that the DIR crowd is a little confused as to how to
>handle their normal abundance of 'stroking' someone (non-DIR diver,
>of course) who does something dumb because MHK quickly waxed about
>how the guy is usually DIR (a part-timer, I guess) is apparent. But
>they've quickly adapted, overcome & improvised in this thread by
>changing the focus to me! :)
I could care less about the diver. You were the one with the
accusation of less than human behavior by those standing nearby. I
have no knowledge of this person or their accident and I do not have
any reason to judge the person involved one way or the other.
Your statements, however, accused everyone who claims to dive DIR as
being the type of person who would stand by while someone else is
burning alive. Personally, I've made rhetorical statements to that
effect ("I wouldn't cross the street to piss on you if you were
burning." to mjbmd) but they were exactly that, rhetorical. I would
never even slow down if I saw someone hurting or in pain and there
was a possibility that I could help.
> I'm sure your god is pleased -- I know I am.
Great. You've convinced a lot of people that you are a moron with no
sense of common decency or right and wrong. Yeah, be proud of that.
Iain Smith
> Not really. I've witnessed all the mantra here about 'strokes,' and
> seen the video ('Doing It Right II' or something like that) where the
> God of DIR dramatically says something along the lines of "...and if
> you're diving with 'strokes,' there is one more piece of gear you
> need..." & then he pulls out a body bag.
Not seen the video, but from your description, I suggest that the
implication is that the body bag is for personal use. ie diving with lousy
buddies is most likely going to kill _you_. And even if the comment was as
tasteless as you seem to believe, is that any reason for you to be sick
enough to repeat the mistake?
> Sounds like you're violating one of the major commandments of your
> religion.
Get a grip. DIR is not a religion. Two people try to sell it like
that. You and Black. That you and he are mentioned in the same sentence
ought to tell you something.
As for never diving with strokes (defn: a diver with an unsafe attitude) I
do my best to ensure that I avoid this, even when I'm taking a new diver
on a first OW dive. Obviously I can't speak for others on this.
> But they've quickly adapted, overcome & improvised in this thread by
> changing the focus to me! :)
Tyler, you achieved that all yourself with your totally out of order
comment.
Iain
Tim Tyler
> You have it all wrong, Tim. Saying that someone will need a body bag
> is not saying watch a man burn.
I agree.
> How did you make that great leap.
I clearly didn't.
> You are an idiot.
I understand your holding that belief, based on your grossly warped
straw-man enterpretation of my comments, which you didn't/couldn't
specifically address.
> Rational debate? I have seen your comments. I have
> found nothing that resembles a rational debate.
To a drunk, the concept of 2 + 2 = 4 isn't rational either.
> As for being a stroke, by posts from those who know him, it is very
> obvious that this guy most definitley is not a stroke. He is open
> minded and striving to improve.
I'm open-minded & striving to improve. But I have little respect for
cults that belittle any who don't practice the same mantra.
> Anyway...what seperates
> divers from strokes is that divers understand that there is a better
> way and they strive to pursue that way.
And "DIR" is the one & only better way?
Rich Lesperance
<SigX...@scubadiving.com> wrote
>This is why it IS important to follow regulator
> manufacturers instructions regarding max O2 percents.
Just out of curiousity, does any manufacturer make a reg they "approve" for
100% O2 use?
> As far as the 80% issue goes, there was less of a chance of this
> happening with 80% than with 100%.
Why?
If a tank _only_ ever sees pure O2, there's less of a problem. To mix 80%,
you need to add an air top - creating the potential for hydrocarbon
contamination.
The differences between flammability (or, to be accurate, oxidizing
potential) between 80% and 100% is minimal, compared to the danger of
introducing trace hydrocarbons into the system.
Rich L
Rich Lesperance
MHK <mhk...@PRODIGY.NET> wrote
>
> As to his state of mind, he joked with me that if I had any influence at
> Halcyon could I expedite his order ( he had just placed a big order and
was
> planning to convert to DIR ). He hopes to be back diving soon enough and
> given his condition he's got a real positive attitude.
>
> He told me that Perry Armour had just left the hospital so maybe when
Perry
> get's a chance he'll give us a better accounting.
Well, here's to hopes of a quick recovery.
I don't care if someone is DIR, almost DIR, or a complete stroke, I'm glad
to hear it wasn't more serious.
Rich L
mike_...@my-deja.com
You said...
> > Hmm, sounds like the other guys must have been 'DIR' divers! Did
> >they label your friend a "stroke" & whip out some body-bags?
Followed by...
> Not really. I've witnessed all the mantra here about 'strokes,' and
>seen the video ('Doing It Right II' or something like that) where the
>God
>of DIR dramatically says something along the lines of "...and if
>you're diving
>with 'strokes,' there is one more piece of gear you need..." & then he
>pulls out
>a body bag.
When put in context, you appear to be saying that you attribute the
behavior of the bystanders to that of DIR proponents because...since
George says take a body bag in a video, DIR divers would stand and
watch a man burn and then pull out a body bag. If you have some other
basis for claiming DIR divers universally have disregard for human life
and safety then I am waiting to hear it.
>
> > You are an idiot.
>
> I understand your holding that belief, based on your grossly warped
> straw-man enterpretation of my comments, which you didn't/couldn't
> specifically address.
Think again. Did you not read my first reply to you. I addressed your
comments specifically. Then I addressed your absurd notion that DIR
divers are inconsiderate because someone spoke about a body bag in a
video.
>
> > Rational debate? I have seen your comments. I have
> > found nothing that resembles a rational debate.
>
> To a drunk, the concept of 2 + 2 = 4 isn't rational either.
I'm drunk? How many fingers are pointing at yourself. I'm not the
only one here that has said your comments are anything but a rational
debate.
> I'm open-minded & striving to improve. But I have little respect
for
> cults that belittle any who don't practice the same mantra.
Me too. However, there is no relevance, since there is not a cult
involved here.
> And "DIR" is the one & only better way?
I invite you to show me something better.
By definition of DIR, DIR is the better way. Now do you have a
disagreement as to what should be considered DIR?
I'm willing to hear your ideas. After all, being an exceedingly
shallow person does not mean you don't know how to dive. Let's not
forget what started this...your comments. Nice job of throwing out
tasteless inflamatory remarks to spark a validity of DIR debate. If
you want to debate DIR I'm sure you know that can easily be done
without attributing inhumane behavior to those that are unlikely to
actually demonstrate such behavior.
MHK
Tim Tyler <tty...@mich.com> wrote in message
news:393FF5F0...@mich.com...
> Ross Bagley wrote:
> >
> > In article <393F06A1...@mich.com>, Tim Tyler <tty...@mich.com>
wrote:
> >
> > [...snip...]
> >
> > > Hmm, sounds like the other guys must have been 'DIR' divers! Did
> > >they label your friend a "stroke" & whip out some body-bags?
> >
> > That's completely uncalled for.
>
> Not really. I've witnessed all the mantra here about 'strokes,' and
> seen the video ('Doing It Right II' or something like that) where the
> God
> of DIR dramatically says something along the lines of "...and if you're
> diving
> with 'strokes,' there is one more piece of gear you need..." & then he
> pulls out
> a body bag.
>
> So if my comment damaged your psyche, I suggest you take it up with
> your
> god & some of his internet disciples.
>
> I've defended the statement you challenged.
> The DIR types sure like to boast about exact conformation &
> discipline, but
> they're full of a lot of wild rhetoric on all sides of issues here, i.e.
> one guy that does something apparently dumb is a 'stroke,' whereas
> someone else (MHK's
> pal, in this case) that does something apparently dumb not only isn't a
> 'stroke,'
> but merits a lot of frothy emotions in attacking someone (me!) who
> sometimes gets
> very amused by trying to hold DIR to a level of consistency and watching
> the vitriol
> & histrionics in response (no different than challenging anyone else's
> religion).
>
Hey COWARD,
Show me one post that I have ever used the word stroke... As to John, by
his own admission, he is trying to convert to DIR and is not there yet. But
none of this has anything to do with the fact that an accident occured, a
diver got very seriously hurt and we all ( with the very prominent exception
of you ) showed compassion.
You have no idea who I am, you have never met me, nor do you know anything
about me. Even if a dumb, chicken shit such as yourself got hurt I would
show compassion. And then I would do the same exact thing I did in John's
case.
Try to find out the facts, get them out and see how it can be prevented in
the future..
You on the other hand kick an injured diver while he's down. So in very
clear language: GO FUCK YOURSELF!!!!!!!!!!
And just so you don't waste anytime on it, I work for myself so if you want
to send some candy ass note to the boss it's me.
Or better yet, grow a pair and call me 310-284-3212. And if you really
have a set of nuts join your idiot buddy BLACK this weekend and show up man
to man, face to face..
Later
Jason O'Rourke
>But they've quickly adapted, overcome & improvised in this thread by
>changing the focus to me! :)
So when are you going to get around to explaining your cowardly actions
wrt Rich? We'll keep asking until you own up.
--
Jason O'Rourke j...@best.com www.jor.com
Last dive @ White Wall, Monterey. 34mins at 51ft.
MHK
Jammer Six <jam...@oz.net> wrote in message
news:8hpcia$li3$1...@216.39.130.52...
>
> Mike, isn't that "cowardLY pussy"?
>
> You non-vets just don't know how to throw insults...
Jammer,
Not bad for a non- college boy ;-)
Cowardice is a noun whereas cowardly is and adjective or adverb.
And in this case since I was modifying *pussy* I should have correctly used
Cowardly.
It still doesn't change the fact that Tim went behind Rich's back, ( went
crying to the principal's office if you will ) and cried like a little
baby..
I have NO respect for rats...
Later
Chris Ward
models have the Titanium 1st stages.
Sorry to hear about your friend, hope he fully recovers.
--
Chris Ward
"Success does not lead to happiness,
happiness leads to success"
"dave grey" <gr...@istar.ca> wrote in message
news:kaC%4.12292$Ip.3...@cac1.rdr.news.psi.ca...
> I seem to remember that Atomic regs.are not recommended for gases with
high
> percentages of oxygen due to the titanium content of the 1st. stage.Can't
> remember which model (s) they were referring to,but it was factory
> recommendation.
> Later,
>
>
> "MHK" <mhk...@PRODIGY.NET> wrote in message
> news:8hmcqd$2voc$1...@newssvr03-int.news.prodigy.com...
> >
> >
> > Michael J. Blitch <mbli...@tampabay.rr.com> wrote in message
> >
Chris Ward
anymore for awhile if I were you.
--
Chris Ward
"Success does not lead to happiness,
happiness leads to success"
"Tim Tyler" <tty...@mich.com> wrote in message
news:393F06A1...@mich.com...
> MHK wrote:
>
> > The REALLY sad part of this is several fold. John is really a great
guy and
> > there were several other diver's in the area ( from a competing shop )
and
> > when John was getting into the ambulance they were heard to say that he
> > deserved it for diving with elevated 02 mixes. Moreover, they even
went on
> > the local news channels that evening and continued this tirade saying
that
> > by not diving within recreational mixes that it was his own fault. Nor
did
> > they help when he was on fire..
>
> Hmm, sounds like the other guys must have been 'DIR' divers! Did they
> label
> your friend a "stroke" & whip out some body-bags?
>
>
Chris Ward
If we took a similar approach to diving in general, there would be very few
people wanting to dive. You might think that's fine, but when issues that
affect divers come up, it will also mean less support for our industry.
I wouldn't respect any instructor who used that kind of tactic in his
class, it has nothing to do with DIR or not DIR. For any instructor to
say, if you're not diving his way, he'll need a body bag is bs.
--
Chris Ward
"Success does not lead to happiness,
happiness leads to success"
"Ross Bagley" <r...@jump.net> wrote in message
news:8hp4g7$sqm$1...@news.jump.net...
Case E. Harris
however, have yet to discover a better way. More importantly, those who
choose to rig and dive differently have yet to put forth any rational
explanation of why their way is better than the rest.
--
Case Harris
div...@cyberdude.com
Dan Bracuk <bra...@pathcom.com> wrote in message
news:39404678....@news.pathcom.com...
> From mike_...@my-deja.com
> " By definition of DIR, DIR is the better way. "
>
> My interpretation is that DIR professes to be the only way, which is
> why wise divers will take it with a grain of OldSalt.
>
> Dan Bracuk
> Toronto, Canada
> It's bad luck to be superstitious.
> rec.scuba faq http://scifi.squawk.com/scuba.html
Rich Lesperance
Jason O'Rourke <j...@best.com> wrote in message
news:PrW%4.841$Qf6....@nuq-read.news.verio.net...
> >changing the focus to me! :)
>
> So when are you going to get around to explaining your cowardly actions
> wrt Rich? We'll keep asking until you own up.
He won't.
You answered your own question, JOR - by saying "cowardly".
He won't even tell me why he did it _after_ the fact.
Rich L
Jammer Six
<mhk...@PRODIGY.NET> wrote:
>€ Timmy, I'd help anybody in trouble, even including a cowardice pussy like
>€ yourself, I'd make sure that you were OK and then to you face I'd call you a
>€ coward.
Mike, isn't that "cowardLY pussy"?
You non-vets just don't know how to throw insults...
--
"C'mon, you sons of bitches, you want to live forever?"
-First Sergeant Dan Daly
Jammer Six
>€ My "diving & safety skills" are always subject to improvement,
>€ regardless of whether or not I join your cult.
That's not up to you, and never will be.
Perry Armor
John is doing as well as can be expected. I visited him this morning, and
he was in a bit of pain, but had a pretty upbeat (as opposed to "beat up", I
guess) outlook. He is still looking forward to his Halcyon order coming in,
and will be trying it out as soon as he possibly can. We actually had plans
to get together this week at my place to "de-Strokify" his gear. That's
going to be put on hold for a few weeks...
After the usuaul razzing about "Strokemix", we got down to brass tacks.
No one is really sure what caused the incident. The tank did not explode.
John was able to turn the valve off, so the tank was not ruptured. There
was some Instroketer at the site who told the cops to drain the bottle
(since it might explode, he figured...), which will make it pretty
difficult to analyse the mix for contaminants. This guy was some sort of
PADI God who apparently convinced the cops he had a clue to what he was
talking about. I don't know who was more stupid, him or the cops. The reg
looks like it blew up, from what I could see in the photos. There was a
great deal of scorching around the upper part of the tank. Personally, I
think I would avoid using a Titanium reg on a high-PO2 mix for the time
being...
Anyway, I will post when I hear more actual fact about what happened.
John appears to be doing pretty well, but let's all think "Happy Thoughts"
for a speedy recovery!
Perry
"Rich Lesperance" <ri...@ufl.edu> wrote in message
news:8hp7gq$7024$2...@spnode25.nerdc.ufl.edu...
Dan Bracuk
Ross Bagley
Dan Bracuk <bra...@pathcom.com> wrote:
>From mike_...@my-deja.com
>" By definition of DIR, DIR is the better way. "
>
>My interpretation is that DIR professes to be the only way, which is
>why wise divers will take it with a grain of OldSalt.
My own interpretation of the chatter on this newsgroup is slightly
different (as could be predicted).
DIR is the only way *to dive with a DIR diver*
I'm certainly not a DIR diver, but I am gradually getting there as I
get more time under water and more money flows through my hands. One
of these days, I might have an opportunity to dive a cave or a deep
wreck, and by that point I'll be fully compliant with DIR rigging and
philosophy.
For my little paddling around the lake, I'll dive with new guys and
I'll be as safe as I can be. When I do venture into intentional deco
you can be certain that I'll invoke rule #1 and only dive with someone
that I trust to be there for me (and who trusts me to do likewise).
Till then,
Jammer Six
<mhk...@PRODIGY.NET> wrote:
>€ Not bad for a non- college boy ;-)
>€
>€ Cowardice is a noun whereas cowardly is and adjective or adverb.
Not bad for a college boy. :)
Amazing efficiency.
With a college degree or two, I see that a guy can learn how to destroy
the meaning of any given sentence with only one fucking letter.
Properly placed, it will evade any spell checker, and will escape
detection until after it's posted.
I am impressed.
If he's a friend of yours, I hope he gets well soon.
Burns are nasty. They don't let you use painkillers during debridement,
because they use the pain as a guide.
I hate burns.
Jammer Six
<mhk...@PRODIGY.NET> wrote:
>€ And just so you don't waste anytime on it, I work for myself so if you want
>€ to send some candy ass note to the boss it's me.
It's more fun to let them send it.
Then you can post it to the internet, and answer as The Man.
Jammer Six
O'Rourke <j...@best.com> wrote:
>€ So when are you going to get around to explaining your cowardly actions
>€ wrt Rich? We'll keep asking until you own up.
Shit.
I locked the boy down just when it was getting good. Black was one, and
he makes two.
Oh, well, I've always been ahead of my time.
Between that and being so good looking, it's amazing I'm so well
adjusted.
Jammer Six
wrote:
>€ I'm open-minded & striving to improve.
Nope, you're close minded, confused, and attempting to argue with
people who are mocking you.
Life, with the possibility of parole after a year.
Get him off my screen.
Now.
Jammer Six
>€ My interpretation is that DIR professes to be the only way, which is
>€ why wise divers will take it with a grain of OldSalt.
Yup.
There's that fucked up interpretation again.
Carl
> why wise divers will take it with a grain of OldSalt.
No, it's not the ONLY way, otherwise it would be DIO...
IT's the RIGHT way, which is why it's DIR :^)
BTW, people have been destrokified...
Carl
Carl
> >" By definition of DIR, DIR is the better way. "
> >
> >My interpretation is that DIR professes to be the only way, which is
> >why wise divers will take it with a grain of OldSalt.
>
> different (as could be predicted).
>
> DIR is the only way *to dive with a DIR diver*
>
> I'm certainly not a DIR diver, but I am gradually getting there as I
> get more time under water and more money flows through my hands. One
> of these days, I might have an opportunity to dive a cave or a deep
> wreck, and by that point I'll be fully compliant with DIR rigging and
> philosophy.
>
> For my little paddling around the lake, I'll dive with new guys and
> I'll be as safe as I can be. When I do venture into intentional deco
> you can be certain that I'll invoke rule #1 and only dive with someone
> that I trust to be there for me (and who trusts me to do likewise).
Ross,
I've seen several people adopt it slowly like this, in fact, a couple
of my friends (at least one of whom is on this forum) are now DIR
divers although it took some time to convert them. I dove with
them before they were DIR (but not in a cave/etc) and they just
gradually decided that my gear configuration was pretty good...
Slowly but surely people are changing over.
Once you understand that it's really the whole system configuration
then it starts to fall into place.
And you know what, people will ALWAYS do something else. IT doesn't
mean they'll get killed/eaten/or anything else. It does mean that
they are most likely not diving an optimum gear configuration but
people do things that aren't optimum every day.
The key thing to remember here is that DIR doesn't JUST work in
a cave, or in a certain environment, it works everywhere... In
case you're curious I suggest you check out the gue website
and read about their expedition to the Brittannica.
Carl
Iain Smith
> From mike_...@my-deja.com
> " By definition of DIR, DIR is the better way. "
>
> My interpretation is that DIR professes to be the only way, which is
> why wise divers will take it with a grain of OldSalt.
Dan - there may be various ways of doing things better. By definition,
there is only one best. That "best" is what DIR seeks to achieve. If you
think you've got something better, then explain it. If you're right, it
will get adopted in the quest to do it even righter ('scuse the grammar!)
Iain
Bret Marquis
It seems to me that the safest thing to do would be to drain the tank
or at a minimum, drastically reduce the pressure inside.
While it makes it very hard to analyze the mix, I would think that
there is a risk that the cylinder valve might have been damaged by the
Ti/O2 fire, if thats what happened. Even if it wasn't a metal fire, I
wouldn't fault the decision to reduce the risk of anything else
happening by draining the contents at the scene. Out in the open,
surrounded by firefighters.
I know that I wouldn't be overly thrilled to be transporting a full,
scorched, hi pressure O2 tank in my car or truck after such an
incident.
Many happy thoughts to your friend and I'm very relieved to hear that
he's expecting a full recovery.
Bret Marquis
On Fri, 09 Jun 2000 00:49:58 GMT, "Perry Armor" <par...@home.com>
wrote:
Chuck Tribolet
that it was a very high FO2, and there doesn't seem to be any
question of that.
And the tank didn't explode, but rather there was a O2 fire.
Now, what caused the primary fire (the secondary fire was the
wetsuit, with the poor fellow in it)? Possibilities:
- Something not O2 clean?
- Ti/O2 fire?
- Something else?
Also: it was said the fellow was out with students. Why did he feel
it necessary to enahance his offgassing? Students don't go deep.
Or were they some tekdiver students?
--
Chuck Tribolet
tri...@garlic.com
http://www.almaden.ibm.com/cs/people/triblet
Silicon Valley: Best day job in the world.
"Bret Marquis" <b...@spamcop.net> wrote in message news:bv51ks0kn86068ifu...@4ax.com...
Matthew MacLean
accelerated off gassing if you are going to be in and out of the water all
day, even if shallow.
As for knowing the mix. Facts are indisputable, assumption and estimates are
the first steps to a failed investigation. In cases like this I think all of
us want the true cause identified. The more knowledge in this area the
better
Matthew MacLean
Chuck Tribolet <tri...@garlic.com> wrote in message
news:8hqb04$1e0q$1...@news2atm.raleigh.ibm.com...
mike_...@my-deja.com
In article <8hps8b$mjv$3...@216.39.130.227>,
Jammer Six <jam...@oz.net> wrote:
> In article <PrW%4.841$Qf6....@nuq-read.news.verio.net>, Jason
> O'Rourke <j...@best.com> wrote:
>
> >€ So when are you going to get around to explaining your cowardly
actions
> >€ wrt Rich? We'll keep asking until you own up.
>
> Shit.
>
> I locked the boy down just when it was getting good. Black was one,
and
> he makes two.
>
> Oh, well, I've always been ahead of my time.
>
> Between that and being so good looking, it's amazing I'm so well
> adjusted.
>
> --
> "C'mon, you sons of bitches, you want to live forever?"
> -First Sergeant Dan Daly
>
mike_...@my-deja.com
example hydrocarbons in the "topping" air. And yes I know, you still
need a spark/heat.
As for needing the additional safety with regard to offgassing,
sometimes basic open water is where instructors are at greater risk of
DCS. For example, in poor visibility classes are often broken up into
buddy teams, meaning the instructor makes many more dives than the
individual students. Also, the instructor makes many more ascents than
individual students. For example taking students up one at a time on
ESAs.
In article <8hqb04$1e0q$1...@news2atm.raleigh.ibm.com>,
mike_...@my-deja.com
"Matthew MacLean" <Matthew...@bigpond.com> wrote:
> In cases like this I think all of us want the true cause identified.
Absolutely! I am particularly interested in knowing the exact cause,
if possible. So far the only suspect item is the titanium reg. I have
seen some pretty compelling arguments both ways on this issue, so I am
not convinced this was necessarily the problem. Other than that, based
on the very limited info. we have so far, it appears John(I think) was
doing this the commonly accepted way. That's a real eye opener for
me. If I need to be doing something different, I sure want to know
it. I'm sorry John had to suffer the injuries he did, but if he and
the rest of us can learn something from it now that it has happened,
then we should.
It's possible that the lesson to be learned here is that we need to be
more careful in laboratory analysis of the breathing gas. The problem
is that now that the cylinder was virtually emptied, we may not be able
to determine this.
Perry Armor
The instructor was doing several classes that day, and planned on doing 5
dives during the course of the day. He planned on breathing the high-PO2
mix between dives in order to increase offgassing. Personally, I think 5
dives is a bit much, but that's my HO...
The question of what the mix was is to see if there were any contaminants in
the mix. I'm pretty sure there were none, but it'd be nice to know, anyway.
Perry
<mike_...@my-deja.com> wrote in message
news:8hqo6a$pu1$1...@nnrp1.deja.com...
Perry Armor
> because MHK quickly waxed about how the guy is usually DIR (a
> part-timer, I guess) is apparent.
Actually, the guy is not "DIR", but was working to change his config to a
DIR setup. He was supposed to be coming over to my house this week to
"de-Strokify", so to speak.
I think the issue is merely the incredibly poor taste of your "body bag"
comment. Real classy...
Perry
"Tim Tyler" <tty...@mich.com> wrote in message
news:393FF5F0...@mich.com...
> Ross Bagley wrote:
> >
> > In article <393F06A1...@mich.com>, Tim Tyler <tty...@mich.com>
wrote:
> >
> > [...snip...]
> >
> > > Hmm, sounds like the other guys must have been 'DIR' divers! Did
> > >they label your friend a "stroke" & whip out some body-bags?
> >
> > That's completely uncalled for.
>
> Not really. I've witnessed all the mantra here about 'strokes,' and
> seen the video ('Doing It Right II' or something like that) where the
> God
> of DIR dramatically says something along the lines of "...and if you're
> diving
> with 'strokes,' there is one more piece of gear you need..." & then he
> pulls out
> a body bag.
>
> So if my comment damaged your psyche, I suggest you take it up with
> your
> god & some of his internet disciples.
>
> I've defended the statement you challenged.
>
> > After reading your past encounters with DIR posters, I figured you for
> > a fairly typical stubborn guy who likes the toys he's bought and
> > doesn't want to give them up. That's a natural feeling and one that
> > takes a lot of effort to work around, and I had hoped that continued
> > discussion and possibly demonstration might have increased your diving
> > safety and skills.
>
> My "diving & safety skills" are always subject to improvement,
> regardless of whether or not I join your cult.
>
> > I have plenty of friends like that, and I still
> > enjoy their company, even if they wouldn't be my first choice as a
> > dive buddy.
>
> Sounds like you're violating one of the major commandments of your
> religion.
>
> > Now I know for a fact that you're just a complete raving asshole.
>
> That may or may not be true, but for your delicate mental well-being,
> you're welcome to use that as an excuse to not engage me in a rational
> debate.
>
>
> The DIR types sure like to boast about exact conformation &
> discipline, but
> they're full of a lot of wild rhetoric on all sides of issues here, i.e.
> one guy that does something apparently dumb is a 'stroke,' whereas
> someone else (MHK's
> pal, in this case) that does something apparently dumb not only isn't a
> 'stroke,'
> but merits a lot of frothy emotions in attacking someone (me!) who
> sometimes gets
> very amused by trying to hold DIR to a level of consistency and watching
> the vitriol
> & histrionics in response (no different than challenging anyone else's
> religion).
>
> The fact that the DIR crowd is a little confused as to how to handle
> their normal
> abundance of 'stroking' someone (non-DIR diver, of course) who does
> something dumb
> because MHK quickly waxed about how the guy is usually DIR (a
> part-timer, I guess) is apparent.
> But they've quickly adapted, overcome & improvised in this thread by
> changing the focus to me! :)
>
> I'm sure your god is pleased -- I know I am.
>
> > Ross
Scott
> mike_...@my-deja.com wrote:
> I'm open-minded & striving to improve. But I have little respect for
> cults that belittle any who don't practice the same mantra.
Have you ever tried a DIR rig?
Its not a cult, and your labeling it such shows that you posess niether the
knowledge to understand it, nor the ability to logically put any part of it
down.
Scott
Scott
"MHK" <mhk...@PRODIGY.NET> wrote in message
news:8hp9pt$vqu$1...@newssvr03-int.news.prodigy.com...
> You on the other hand kick an injured diver while he's down. So in very
> clear language: GO FUCK YOURSELF!!!!!!!!!!
And just *exactly* what do you mean by that??? =;-)
> And just so you don't waste anytime on it, I work for myself so if you
want
> to send some candy ass note to the boss it's me.
No, thats my role here, dammit!. There you go again, trying to steal my
thunder...
Have fun with Mr. Black this weekend. <snicker> You got balls, Mike.
I am letting him out of my KF Monday.
Scott
Scott
> He won't.
>
> You answered your own question, JOR - by saying "cowardly".
>
> He won't even tell me why he did it _after_ the fact.
"Two old ladies layin in bed"...
<take it from here, Rich>
Scott
mike_...@my-deja.com
wouldn't have strokes.
In article <39404678....@news.pathcom.com>,
bra...@pathcom.com (Dan Bracuk) wrote:
> From mike_...@my-deja.com
> " By definition of DIR, DIR is the better way. "
>
> My interpretation is that DIR professes to be the only way, which is
> why wise divers will take it with a grain of OldSalt.
>
> Dan Bracuk
> Toronto, Canada
> It's bad luck to be superstitious.
> rec.scuba faq http://scifi.squawk.com/scuba.html
>
Scott
> I have NO respect for rats...
Timmy aint the only rat lurking here. Not the only coward.
I find it amusing that when these cheesedicks open their BFM, try to comment
on something they know less than nothing about, get spanked, they go crying
to Daddy.
The cheesedick coward that ratted on me is, amazingly, an IANTD instructor!
Go figure.
I am *sure* it had nothing to do with income or money.
Scott
"Iain Smith" <im...@hermes.cam.ac.uk> wrote in message
news:Pine.SOL.4.21.0006...@red.csi.cam.ac.uk...
> As for never diving with strokes (defn: a diver with an unsafe attitude) I
> do my best to ensure that I avoid this, even when I'm taking a new diver
> on a first OW dive. Obviously I can't speak for others on this.
I dive with new divers all the time. Never with strokes. There is a
difference.
90% of the divers I dove with, and share the gear and config with,
immediately see the benefits, and when we dive they are able to see that I
am doing a *lot* less work than they are to cover the same distance.
"Ignorance means you haven't been taught. Stupid means you are proud of your
ignorance." - Dad
Scott
Scott
amount of the stuff, and actually had a fire in the chip pan of a lathe I
was running. If you get the stuff fine enough, it will ignite upon exposure
to air alone. During welding and casting Ti must be complete enveloped in an
inert atmosphere.
It will be interesting to see where this goes...
Scott
"Miranda Alldritt" <mir...@paralynx.com> wrote in message
news:393EBEF5...@paralynx.com...
> That's horrible - really scarey!
>
> Best wishes to John for a speedy recovery.
>
> Do we know if it was actually the first stage or something in the tank
> valve that originally ignited? Is anybody investigating this? Maybe
> it's too hard to tell given the destruction that would surely result
> from something like this. I don't know ... but it would sure be nice to
> have an answer - from your description it sounds like John had taken at
> least as much care in cleaning as many of us do.
>
> The only possible issue I can think of with the 80/20 thing that would
> relate to this incident is what you end up getting your mix topped
> with. O2 bottle and O2 reg only ever sees oxygen which isn't going to
> have any hydrocarbons in it.
>
>
> Miranda
>
>
> MHK wrote:
> >
> > Michael J. Blitch <mbli...@tampabay.rr.com> wrote in message
> >
> > > BTW, I read a message somewhere just now that the tank contents my
> > > have been something other than what was labled on the take. Rumor has
> > > it that the EAN was something like 78%. If this is true, this is might
> > > be necessary to start bring out the stroke mix check off list.
> >
> > Mike,
> >
> > The story is true. It happened to a friend of mine. His name is John
Cain
> > and I spoke with him yesterday in the hospital.
> >
> > The 80% issue aside for a minute ( I'll get to that later ), he sounded
in
> > good spirits but he was pretty banged up. He has 1st, 2nd and 3rd
degree
> > burns on varying parts of his body. He underwent surgery yesterday and
is
> > expected to be hospitalized for about a week. I'll call him tomorrow
and
> > get an update.
> >
> > But as to the facts, He was working with a bunch of open water students
and
> > was planning on doing 5 very shallow dives with different students
during
> > the day. He wasn't even taking the gas in the water, he just wanted to
> > breathe it as an extra measure of protection during SIT's. He cranked
on
> > the bottle while leaning on the back of his truck. His arm was leaning
on
> > the 1st stage and when he opened the valve it ignited. He was using the
> > Atomic T1/T2 and swears that it was 02 cleaned. The tank ( AL 40 ) was
in
> > current hydro.
> >
> > His wetsuit caught on fire and by the time he was able to get the flames
> > extinguished he has suffered some bad burns.
> >
> > The REALLY sad part of this is several fold. John is really a great guy
and
> > there were several other diver's in the area ( from a competing shop )
and
> > when John was getting into the ambulance they were heard to say that he
> > deserved it for diving with elevated 02 mixes. Moreover, they even went
on
> > the local news channels that evening and continued this tirade saying
that
> > by not diving within recreational mixes that it was his own fault. Nor
did
> > they help when he was on fire..
> >
> > As soon as I know more details about the diver's and shop I'll provide
them.
> > It's one thing not to agree with someone's diving philosophy, but it's a
> > completely different matter when someone is on fire to stand around and
play
> > Monday morning quarterback. Hell, I'd even help BLACK if he get's in
> > trouble this weekend ;-)
> >
> > As to the 80%, John and I talked about this 3 weeks ago and John ( along
> > with Perry Armour ) is very involved in setting up my DIR demo in San
Diego
> > slated for July 16th. In fact when John was in L.A. a month ago his
comment
> > to me was help de-strokify me. While it was said TIC at the time, my
sense
> > is whether he has 80% or 100% this may still have happened. But I did
tell
> > him that if he were on any of my trips that I would make him blend last
that
> > evening if he insisted on 80% ;-)
> >
> > Also, he did say that all O-rings were viton. As soon as I know more
I'll
> > update.
> >
> > Regards
>
> --
> "The sea has no compassion, no faith, no law, no memory. -o)
> Its fickleness is to be held true to men's purposes only by an /\\
> undaunted resolution and by a sleepless, armed, jealous _\_v
> vigilance...."
Scott
"dave grey" <gr...@istar.ca> wrote in message
news:mtE%4.12300$Ip.3...@cac1.rdr.news.psi.ca...
> Interesting about stainless,though.Didn't know that.Thanks for the info.
News to me. I weld and machine the stuff every day, and you absolutely can
not cut stainless with a torch, which is high heat and 02 in a jet stream.
I think this info is completely wrong.
I have had titatnium catch fire when machining it, never stainless. And I
get the stuff hot enough to turn purple while machining.
Scott
Scott
Scott
"Perry Armor" <par...@home.com> wrote in message
news:WaX%4.283252$8k3.2...@news1.rdc1.sdca.home.com...
> Rich, MHK, Everybody,
>
> John is doing as well as can be expected. I visited him this morning,
and
> he was in a bit of pain, but had a pretty upbeat (as opposed to "beat up",
I
> guess) outlook. He is still looking forward to his Halcyon order coming
in,
> and will be trying it out as soon as he possibly can. We actually had
plans
> to get together this week at my place to "de-Strokify" his gear. That's
> going to be put on hold for a few weeks...
>
> After the usuaul razzing about "Strokemix", we got down to brass tacks.
> No one is really sure what caused the incident. The tank did not explode.
> John was able to turn the valve off, so the tank was not ruptured. There
> was some Instroketer at the site who told the cops to drain the bottle
> (since it might explode, he figured...), which will make it pretty
> difficult to analyse the mix for contaminants. This guy was some sort of
> PADI God who apparently convinced the cops he had a clue to what he was
> talking about. I don't know who was more stupid, him or the cops. The
reg
> looks like it blew up, from what I could see in the photos. There was a
> great deal of scorching around the upper part of the tank. Personally, I
> think I would avoid using a Titanium reg on a high-PO2 mix for the time
> being...
> Anyway, I will post when I hear more actual fact about what happened.
> John appears to be doing pretty well, but let's all think "Happy Thoughts"
> for a speedy recovery!
>
> Perry
>
>
> "Rich Lesperance" <ri...@ufl.edu> wrote in message
> news:8hp7gq$7024$2...@spnode25.nerdc.ufl.edu...
> >
> > MHK <mhk...@PRODIGY.NET> wrote
> > >
> > > As to his state of mind, he joked with me that if I had any influence
at
> > > Halcyon could I expedite his order ( he had just placed a big order
and
> > was
> > > planning to convert to DIR ). He hopes to be back diving soon enough
> and
> > > given his condition he's got a real positive attitude.
> > >
> > > He told me that Perry Armour had just left the hospital so maybe when
> > Perry
> > > get's a chance he'll give us a better accounting.
> >
> > Well, here's to hopes of a quick recovery.
> >
> > I don't care if someone is DIR, almost DIR, or a complete stroke, I'm
glad
> > to hear it wasn't more serious.
> >
> > Rich L
> >
> >
> >
> >
>
>
Scott
> Personally, I think 5
> dives is a bit much, but that's my HO...
A lot of these instructors *have* to do such diving to make any money with
the current puppy mill level of training and selling of training that
pervades the industry.
Scott
Scott
"Bret Marquis" <b...@spamcop.net> wrote in message
news:bv51ks0kn86068ifu...@4ax.com...
>
> It seems to me that the safest thing to do would be to drain the tank
> or at a minimum, drastically reduce the pressure inside.
This is basically an "incident scene", and by all the experts intervening,
evidence may have been lost. If the container is intact, why drain it? The
burst disks (if there were any) didn't rupture, there was no reason to drain
the tank. The scene should have been preserved and left undisturbed for the
investigators to work with.
Scott
mike_...@my-deja.com
"Scott" <sco...@hctc.com> wrote:
> If you get the stuff fine enough, it will ignite upon exposure
> to air alone.
As in a chip/flake from a grinding piston or during the
assembly/overhaul process, maybe?
Perry Armor
I am an instructor here in SD, as well, but I won't do 5 dives a day
here. Yes, in order to actually make money you may have to, and I'm not
slighting John in the least (he's considerably more robust than I & can
obviously get away with it), but I guess I'm just a wimp... :-)
There is a quite a "puppy mill" mentality towards training around here,
and a lot of it comes from a certain organization (which I belong to) that
resembles my initials. It doesn't mean one has to like it, though. Being
ever the optimist, I'm hoping this mentality will someday change.
Perry Armor Diving Instructor
"Scott" <sco...@hctc.com> wrote in message
news:sk1v65...@corp.supernews.com...
Perry Armor
I would wager that (like Scott said) if the tank were going to go, you'd
lose the burst disk, or the valve o-ring would extrude. It is unlikely that
you'd wind up with an exploding tank spraying shrapnel everywhere. Draining
the tank just made it much harder to eliminate one potential cause of the
accident.
BTW, give me a call when you get a chance. I should be home late morning
through the afternoon.
Perry
"Scott" <sco...@hctc.com> wrote in message
news:sk1v2n...@corp.supernews.com...
Case E. Harris
said that it was less than idea when compared to copper or brass from a
friction standpoint. Most fill panels I have seen (and 2 of the 3 I have
built) have used mostly or all stainless pipe and fittings with little or no
problem. All I'm getting at (and all any good blender course is getting at)
is that it's less than ideal. Of course, copper is less than ideal from a
corrosion standpoint....I mean, who would buy EAN from a shop with a
corroded green panel? In the marine environment, stainless is a good
tradeoff between corrosion resistance and flammability.
--
Case Harris
div...@cyberdude.com
Scott <sco...@hctc.com> wrote in message
news:sk1ujh...@corp.supernews.com...
Scott
Please don't take this wrong.
I am not dissing John or you in any way. PADI and the puppy mill dive shops
need to take a clue and wake up. But, inevitably, the only rule they use to
measure success is $$$.
I see them every weekend. Instructors burdened with too many students, too
little time, and too little pay. You couldn't *give* me an OW instructor
shingle.
The only way its going to change is when people realize that you *are not*
going to get a good training regimen in one weekend for $200, but, that's
what the market wants. I think all Instructors should get together and form
a non denominational or organizational Union, and pull a couple strikes.
Scott
"Perry Armor" <par...@home.com> wrote in message
news:Qa705.283951$8k3.2...@news1.rdc1.sdca.home.com...
> Scott,
>
> I am an instructor here in SD, as well, but I won't do 5 dives a day
> here. Yes, in order to actually make money you may have to, and I'm not
> slighting John in the least (he's considerably more robust than I & can
> obviously get away with it), but I guess I'm just a wimp... :-)
>
> There is a quite a "puppy mill" mentality towards training around here,
> and a lot of it comes from a certain organization (which I belong to) that
> resembles my initials. It doesn't mean one has to like it, though. Being
> ever the optimist, I'm hoping this mentality will someday change.
>
> Perry Armor Diving Instructor
>
>
> "Scott" <sco...@hctc.com> wrote in message
Case E. Harris
plus books all inclusive in San Diego? That was the going rate when I
taught there.... and yeah, 5-6 dives on a Saturday and the same on Sunday
was not uncommon...
--
Case Harris
div...@cyberdude.com
Perry Armor
No worries, I didn't think you were insulting us -- I was merely lamenting
the low pay for instructors out there. Sometimes, I just gotta be a
crybaby... :-)
I was in High Springs a couple weeks ago and was talking with one of the
GUE instructors about teaching OW classes. We'd both figured out that we
commonly made @ $2.25 an hour for teaching OW. IMHO, this is not
financially rewarding. The tragedy of this is, you wind up with instructors
who have to do 5 dives a day, or enormous classes where nobody learns
anything. Now, I refuse to do an OW class with more than 6 people.
Obviously, I'm a masochist. And, getting OT for this thread...
Okay, "Bitch Mode" off...
Perry
"Scott" <sco...@hctc.com> wrote in message
news:sk221m...@corp.supernews.com...
> Perry,
>
> Please don't take this wrong.
>
> I am not dissing John or you in any way. PADI and the puppy mill dive
shops
> need to take a clue and wake up. But, inevitably, the only rule they use
to
> measure success is $$$.
>
> I see them every weekend. Instructors burdened with too many students, too
> little time, and too little pay. You couldn't *give* me an OW instructor
> shingle.
>
> The only way its going to change is when people realize that you *are not*
> going to get a good training regimen in one weekend for $200, but, that's
> what the market wants. I think all Instructors should get together and
form
> a non denominational or organizational Union, and pull a couple strikes.
>
> Scott
>
> "Perry Armor" <par...@home.com> wrote in message
> news:Qa705.283951$8k3.2...@news1.rdc1.sdca.home.com...
> > Scott,
> >
> > I am an instructor here in SD, as well, but I won't do 5 dives a day
> > here. Yes, in order to actually make money you may have to, and I'm not
> > slighting John in the least (he's considerably more robust than I & can
> > obviously get away with it), but I guess I'm just a wimp... :-)
> >
> > There is a quite a "puppy mill" mentality towards training around
here,
> > and a lot of it comes from a certain organization (which I belong to)
that
> > resembles my initials. It doesn't mean one has to like it, though.
Being
> > ever the optimist, I'm hoping this mentality will someday change.
> >
> > Perry Armor Diving Instructor
> >
> >
Scott
to dive for $99. They give you a CD, you learn at home, bring in your test
results, and go do the water work.
I don't remember which shop it was. Par for the course.
Scott
"Case E. Harris" <div...@cyberdude.com> wrote in message
news:sk22d6o...@corp.supernews.com...
> Can someone still get certified (and bring a friend to get a cert) for
$125
> plus books all inclusive in San Diego? That was the going rate when I
> taught there.... and yeah, 5-6 dives on a Saturday and the same on Sunday
> was not uncommon...
>
> --
> Case Harris
> div...@cyberdude.com
Scott
<mike_...@my-deja.com> wrote in message news:8hr0ff$o1$1...@nnrp1.deja.com...
> As in a chip/flake from a grinding piston or during the
> assembly/overhaul process, maybe?
Affirmative. We used to make investment casting molds. These are used in the
titanium industry almost exlcusively because of the expense/danger of
melting and casting titanium. We can mold parts accurately enough to require
very little finish machining. Most of the foundry's that cast Ti have very
closely guarded methods and gas combinations used to get the results they
want from the casting process, and ensure that they dont have a Ti fire,
which, if very large, can prove to be a very dangerous/difficult fire to put
out. As you can imagine, water is *not* recomended!
Titanium and magnesium are two metals I have worked that will sponaneously
ignite when exposed simply to 02 concetration found in air, *if* the
particle size is small enough. I have had fires with both. Normally, we will
keep a bucket of sand and a chemical extinguisher right next to the machine
(right next to my left boot!) while machining the stuff, just in case. Its
not a real common occurance, but it can and does happen. we also empty the
chip pan often, and *wipe* the machine free of dust often (no compressed air
for obvious reasons).
Titanium regs just seem like a bad application for the material, IMHO.
People see the word Titanium, and it means money, status and something
different. I mean, the Atomic Ti regs are the most expensive regs available,
so they must be the best...
I know guys who buy titanium motorcycle parts, not because they ever hope to
be competitive in racing, but because when they are showing it off in the
garage, they get to brag about how expensive their shiny bits are.
Has more to do with ego, I suspect, than practical application of the
material. The good folks at Atomic are reading the high-end market like an
open book.
Make it of titanium, and the rich folks will be drawn to purchase like moths
to a flame.
What possible purpose can there be for removing weight from a reg? So you
have to add it to your belt? The anti corrosion issue is really overplayed,
and there are far less reactive materials to use for this purpose, if the
design criteria are indeed corrosion resistance.
I think its all wrong (use of Ti in breathing regs for SCUBA), and driven by
marketing only. People will by stuff simply because it expensive, and made
form Unobtanium.
Scott
Perry Armor
Yeah, you probably can get certified for $125, or very close to that.
When I got certified in SD, it cost $65 (1976), which I got on a special, it
was normally $75. Now, almost 25 yrs. later, it only costs $125? Such a
deal. Except for the instructor.
I turn 40 in a just over a week. No more 5 dives a day for me -- unless
I'm doing it for fun in Cayman or something.
Okay, "Bitch Mode" really turning off...
Perry
SigX...@scubadiving.com
It is obvious from the picture that his titanium regulator caught fire.
This is why it IS important to follow regulator manufacturers
instructions. All the Halcyon gear in the world would not have stopped
this from happening. Following regulator manufacturers guidelines would
have. As for his 80% mix, there was less of a chance of fire with his
80% mix than with 100% O2. So everyone who has posted out out their
asses about him not being DIR would have increased his chances of this
happening with 100%. I also noticed that his oxygen cylinder sticker
was from TDI. Interesting to see the results of standard TDI training
in action.
For multi-dive safety, it would have been a better idea to use a EAN40
while diving (or EAN50 with a different regulator) rather than EAN80 on
the surface.
I am glad he is getting better and in good spirits,
Bill Johnson
Scott
gas refining industry are made of 100% stainless. All safety and pressure
release valves are plumbed exclusively with 316 tubing and Swagelock
fittings.
Stainless has a natural molecular affinity for itself. Often, when we are
making parts of stainless (especially threads), you have to use a dissimilar
metal for gauges, because stainless will lock up to itself, as good as
welded, if placed together immediately after machining. The reason that
stainless doesn't corrode, is that it creates an instant, thin layer of
oxidation on the surface of the material, upon first exposure to atmospheric
levels of 02. This micro layer of oxidation keeps the reaction from
proceeding further into the material.
Some stainless *will* rust upon exposure to salt water and air, but this is
usually very simply wiped away. Scotchbrite at worst.
Scott
"Case E. Harris" <div...@cyberdude.com> wrote in message
news:sk21uhk...@corp.supernews.com...
> I"m not saying stainless will burn as easily as Ti or magnesium.... I just
> said that it was less than idea when compared to copper or brass from a
> friction standpoint. Most fill panels I have seen (and 2 of the 3 I have
> built) have used mostly or all stainless pipe and fittings with little or
no
> problem. All I'm getting at (and all any good blender course is getting
at)
> is that it's less than ideal. Of course, copper is less than ideal from a
> corrosion standpoint....I mean, who would buy EAN from a shop with a
> corroded green panel? In the marine environment, stainless is a good
> tradeoff between corrosion resistance and flammability.
>
> --
> Case Harris
> div...@cyberdude.com
> Scott <sco...@hctc.com> wrote in message
ads...@gov.nb.ca
<tri...@garlic.com> wrote:
Was the truck o2 clean? Any chance that the fire started due to
gasoline fumes in the area?
ads
Sam Paris
mike_...@my-deja.com wrote:
>
> Another possibility is that there were contaminants in the gas. For
> example hydrocarbons in the "topping" air. And yes I know, you still
> need a spark/heat.
Which you can get by opening the valve too quickly. Adiabatic
heating (the temperature rise you get when the very fast moving gas
stream recompresses itself against the regulator walls) can ignite a
contaminated regulator used with pure oxygen. I'd imagine (though I
don't know for certain) that 78% O2 could do the same.
Friction on loose particles blown around at high velocities by the
inrushing gas can also provide the necessary ignition.
Sam Paris
Perry Armor
Yes, this is all pretty obvious. Personally, I would never use a Titanium
reg for, well, ANYTHING. I'm pretty fond of my S-pro Mk.20/g250's for my O2
bottles. John has been using his Ti reg with his high-PO2 mixes for a
couple of years, from what I understand, so maybe he just was lucky for a
while. I'm not a metallurgist, so I just don't know.
As for Halcyon-whatever, in trying to "de-strokify" him, I would've
pointed out that I don't think Ti would be a good idea for a reg. I think
O2 is a much safer gas to use than something like 80/20, provided your
equipment is O2-clean (and the correct equipment). With 80/20, you
introduce the possibility of Hydrocarbon contamination, which is, in
technical terms "yucky".
Yeah, well the sticker thing could just be who he got his stickers from.
My equipment all has "Oxygen" painted on the O2 cylinders in 3" letters, and
my 50% deco mix has "70" (the MOD) on the side. I got rid of my stickers
(IANTD, by the way) long ago. I hate stickers, & avoid them when
possible -- tough to do in So. Cal., where everyone seems to think EAN &
Trimix are "Voodoo Gas", and you have to have BS stickers all over
everything.
I would have chosen a different mix for the dives, too. Maybe something
like EAN 36 or 32, something simple... Anyway, what's done is done, and
John is alive & recovering. Everyone has learned from the experience (I
hope).
Regards,
Perry
<SigX...@scubadiving.com> wrote in message
news:8hr4jr$43s$1...@nnrp1.deja.com...
tleemay
Tim Tyler wrote:
> I'm open-minded & striving to improve.
First thing's first Hooligan, lose the tank mounted battery pack and the
knife on the inflator hose.
--
T. May
"To increase the quality and diversity of aquatic education. Founded by
conservationists, explorers and educators with a desire to see the mystery
of the underwater world explored, studied, protected and shared. We are
prepared to redefine the nature of aquatic activity in three specific areas:
education, research and exploration."
Jammer Six
<chris...@divenboard.com> wrote:
>€ I wouldn't respect any instructor who used that kind of tactic in his
>€ class, it has nothing to do with DIR or not DIR.
I'm sure GUE will change their tactics immediately. Thanks for bringing
your lack of respect to their attention.
I know that one of the motivations that drives GUE is a craving for
acceptance and respect from the masses of uneducated, thin skinned
strokes, who have nothing to offer except complaints.
I'm sure they'll change everything to get your respect back.
>€ For any instructor to say, if you're not diving his way, he'll need a body bag is bs.
Unless, of course, you're a GUE instructor.
You're not, are you?
Didn't think so.
--
"C'mon, you sons of bitches, you want to live forever?"
-First Sergeant Dan Daly
Jammer Six
wrote:
>€ Maybe it's that humility thats keeping you so well adjusted, Jammer.<G>
I'll bet there's something to that!
Ross Bagley
What do you call the movies "The Road Runs Red" and similar gore
flicks that are shown during driver's ed classes? How about the
demolished car that the paramedics brought to my high school before
the prom? Where someone is already learning and before accidents
are made is exactly where a few highly placed rhetorical arguments
make the most sense.
I think that more people should think seriously about the risks of
entering caves and wrecks. Making it clear that death is not only
possible but probable if you seriously fuck up is doing cave divers
and wreck divers a favor.
>If we took a similar approach to diving in general, there would be very few
>people wanting to dive. You might think that's fine, but when issues that
>affect divers come up, it will also mean less support for our industry.
My PADI instructor made it clear to my class why we needed the
training to get a C-Card and why you couldn't get an air fill without
a C-Card. "Because a lot of people have died underwater, and we want
you to learn from their mistakes." Nobody left until a diver drowned
at the end of the class (and then, those who quit just failed to pick
up the C-Card they'd already earned).
An honest discussion of the assumed risk of getting into an
environment where you need a properly functioning life support system
to stay alive is not going to scare off any but the completely
unsuitable (the people who really shouldn't leave their homes).
>I wouldn't respect any instructor who used that kind of tactic in his
>class, it has nothing to do with DIR or not DIR. For any instructor to
>say, if you're not diving his way, he'll need a body bag is bs.
For cave diving, where the track record of various training agencies
and their students is clear, a slightly different theory is apparently
required. Good luck with that.
Regards,
Ross
-- Ross Bagley & Associates http://www.rossbagley.com
"We don't write your software, we help you write your software better!"
Ross Bagley
[...snip...]
>I've seen several people adopt it slowly like this, in fact, a couple
>of my friends (at least one of whom is on this forum) are now DIR
>divers although it took some time to convert them. I dove with
>them before they were DIR (but not in a cave/etc) and they just
>gradually decided that my gear configuration was pretty good...
>Slowly but surely people are changing over.
>
>Once you understand that it's really the whole system configuration
>then it starts to fall into place.
Well, in the equipment department, here's what I lack: drysuit,
doubles, doubles wing, cannister light, enough Al bottles for deco
mixes, regs 3, 4, and 5. Basically, I dive a single tank with a
wetsuit in non-deco situations only.
I have a 7' hose, but I dive a 5' hose because I don't have a good
place to hook it, the 5' hose fits very nicely under my arm, and I
don't have to get through any constrictions (where a 7' hose would be
mandatory).
In the training department, I am missing formal mixed gas (including
deco), drysuit usage, general harassment training, and DIR dive
protocols.
[...snip...]
>The key thing to remember here is that DIR doesn't JUST work in
>a cave, or in a certain environment, it works everywhere...
I completely agree. For the diving I do, the backplate and wings are
a definite advantage, so is breathing the long hose. The light isn't
a big deal yet, but it will eventually get added to the dive bag. At
this point, I am building a few sets of doubles and I will get a
drysuit before I use them, but until I go on a deco dive, can I be DIR
with a wetsuit and a single 95cf tank over a 100' hard bottom?
Iain Smith
a GUE instructor.
To the best of my knowledge (and doubtless someone will correct me if I'm
wrong) George Irvine is not an instructor of any agency. He may be someone
from whom things can be learned - this does not make him an instructor.
Iain
wise...@yahoo.com
Interesting about this titanium issue. When I was clueless and right
out of the padi womb (as compared to now... I've progressed to a rapid
crawl and can make out the fuzzy letters DIR in the distance) I bought
two Atomic Ti second stages (one for me one for the wife) because I was
told that they would need the least maintenance and that Ti was much
better in a salt water environment. Since I do a lot of travel and
dive 3-5 times a week this sounded good. I didn't buy the Ti first
stage because the owner thought that was a little over the top. And
even then I said the same thing you did: why take weight off... so I
can add it to my belt? :)
Surely this isn't rocket science... why the fuck would somebody play
games like this? Surely they (Atomic) had to do the same stuff you're
doing with Ti... and must have run into simliar situations.
Has this happened before? Should I O2 clean my regs to dive air or
banked EAN32 just in case or just sell 'em? What would do? How likely
is it that this "dust" you talk about gather in sufficient quantities
to set off a fire? I'm glad I read this... I was going to convert my
Ti second stages into my oxygen clean set and buy other regs to do
dirty air diving (i.e. in non O2 clean shops).
-ben
ps. I thought the flame wars were bad on the other scuba lists
(GUE/TECH) :) ... running away from rec.scuba...
In article <sk230u...@corp.supernews.com>,
Perry Armor
I would think twice about using your Ti regs in a high-PO2 environment.
I really like my old standby Scubapros' for Oxygen use. I would say the
jury is out right now in Ti use for "tech" diving. Hmmm...
Perry
<wise...@yahoo.com> wrote in message news:8hrqnn$lrt$1...@nnrp1.deja.com...
Scott J. McFadden
>To the best of my knowledge (and doubtless someone will correct me if I'm
>wrong) George Irvine is not an instructor of any agency.
Nope, he just "runs the show".
>He may be someone
>from whom things can be learned -
"Can" is a big, big word.
>this does not make him an instructor.
No, it does not.
--
SJM
Dan Bracuk
" More importantly, those who choose to rig and dive differently have
yet to put forth any rational explanation of why their way is better
than the rest. "
Nor do we have to.
Dan Bracuk
Toronto, Canada
It's bad luck to be superstitious.
rec.scuba faq http://scifi.squawk.com/scuba.html
Chris Ward
it'll never happen.
I mean, if this is the kind of attitude DIR people have, how do you expect
people to be open minded to it. I was interested in the DIR demo in
Monterey, but if this is the kind of "philosophy" you have, I've changed my
mind.
People come into the shop and ask about DIR occasionally. When they do, I
point them to the GUE website and tell them, unbiased, what I've heard and
seen so far. There are some very valid points to the system. I tell them
about some of the more eloquent posts of MHK, Scott or Perry, and tell them
what good sources of information they are. What I'll probably start doing
instead is print copies of these wonderful exchanges between us "strokes"
and you DIR "gods"(because let's face it, that's what YOU act like you are)
to show people that good old DIR philosophy when they ask from now on.
In the last 3 months, I've seen very little other than quips and sarcasm
from you on any thread, nothing useful. If you're a representative of DIR,
then you're a poor one at best and moving rapidly to abhorrent.
What's that phrase you use...........oh yeah, "away, wee one......30 days".
Go ahead and put me in that killfile, at least then I won't have to hear
your crap in response to my posts.
MHK, sorry this happened on this thread. Once again, my hopes that your
friend fully recovers.
--
Chris Ward
"Success does not lead to happiness,
happiness leads to success"
Last Dive 6-4-00, 123 fsw, 33 min., Vis: 35'
"Jammer Six" <jam...@oz.net> wrote in message
news:8hreo1$rlo$0...@216.39.130.72...
> In article <8hpqg1$6ps$1...@bob.news.rcn.net>, Chris Ward
> <chris...@divenboard.com> wrote:
>
> Unless, of course, you're a GUE instructor.
>
> You're not, are you?
>
> Didn't think so.
>
Chris Ward
a valid purpose, but obviously, people have started spreading it's style
and quote to the recreational arena.
"Ross Bagley" <r...@jump.net> wrote in message
news:8hrhlf$fbu$1...@news.jump.net...
> In article <8hpqg1$6ps$1...@bob.news.rcn.net>,
> What do you call the movies "The Road Runs Red" and similar gore
> flicks that are shown during driver's ed classes
As for the videos shown in drivers ed, I'm sure you'll agree that a person
behind the wheel has a greater potential(simply by ratio of potential
victims they will encounter) of harming others than a diver. There are no
where near the same number of diving accidents as car accidents per day,
let alone per year.
> My PADI instructor made it clear to my class why we needed the
> training to get a C-Card and why you couldn't get an air fill without
> a C-Card
So did mine. He didn't have to show me a dead body either, your point.
> An honest discussion of the assumed risk of getting into an
> environment where you need a properly functioning life support system
> to stay alive is not going to scare off any but the completely
> unsuitable (the people who really shouldn't leave their homes).
Didn't sound like any honest discussion, but a quip of sarcasm from the
instructor aimed towards people who didn't follow his way of thinking.
> For cave diving, where the track record of various training agencies
> and their students is clear, a slightly different theory is apparently
> required. Good luck with that.
Or maybe it's just the screening process. You know, that natural stance we
take to someone who we think either will or won't be able to cut it.
--
Chris Ward
"Success does not lead to happiness,
happiness leads to success"
Last Dive 6-4-00, 123 fsw, 38 min., Vis: 35'
andrew m. boardman
>All the Halcyon gear in the world would not have stopped this from
>happening. Following regulator manufacturers guidelines would have.
What manufacturers approve pure O2 for their regulators?
(No, this is not a rhetorical question. At least not if there's a
non-null answer to it.)