PADI bashing
MHK
A nother A nd
D ollar D ive
I n I mmediately
To many in this ng PADI bashing has become national sport. New lows are
sought every day with no opportunity missed to second guess or criticize
current standards. I therefore wonder what many of the pseudo experts in
this ng would do if charged with the responsibility for establishing
standards that would appease the harshest of critics while simultaneously
satisfying the following:
- provide for diver safety;
- ensure continued world wide growth;
- satisfy the vast international legal requirements;
- avoid government intervention and regulation;
- enable economic incentive to dive shop owners, instructors, etc.
- standardize training methods accounting for 3rd world economies,
varied locations, facilities, weather, desires, laws, personnel, etc., etc.,
etc.;
- provide opportunities ( employment and diving) for physically
challenged, elder, minority and those less fortunate than others;
- environmental objectives;
- tourism ( many economies rely heavily on the dive industry);
Obviously, the above list in not all inclusive respecting the voluminous
responsibilities shouldered by a certifying agency. It does ( I hope )
provide further insight to the substantial undertaking an agency must
confront.
Accordingly, it is easy to play Monday morning quarterback, but what could
be done, given the above, differently? What cost effective measures would
you enact?
For the record, I do not pretend to have all the answers but perhaps this ng
could be used as a productive forum to address many of the most common
criticisms. Maybe your thoughts have been considered and we can find out
why they haven't been implemented. Perhaps you will think of something
others haven't considered. This ng has many talented people participating
in debate, save for a few, the majority of the group is supportive and
productive members of the diving community.
All constructive thoughts are welcomed. If possible, leave the PADI bashing
for a different thread, we all know, and have heard repeatedly, the
complaints maybe now we can hear more thoughts towards progress and less
digression favoring unwarranted cynicism.
MK
>
> P ut P ay
> A nother A nd
> D ollar D ive
> I n I mmediately
>
N - Not
A - Actual
U - Underwater
I - Instruction
;)
--
MK
============================
Simons Law-
Everything put together falls
apart sooner or later.
============================
Jason O'Rourke
>Accordingly, it is easy to play Monday morning quarterback, but what could
>be done, given the above, differently? What cost effective measures would
>you enact?
Well, the old standards are still around, I think that YMCA may still use
them, as do many university programs. If you live in LA, the original
scuba class may still be available.
And I'd quickly increase the min dive / time requirements before allowing
people to become PADI "Pros." That by itself would do wonders. No more
DM candidates with 20 dives and a month of experience. No instructors
with 100 dives in a quarry.
But I guess you have a different definition of cost effective. PADI's
loose guidelines gets a lot more OW students then it could get otherwise,
but those same loose guidelines keep the dropout rate high.
--
Jason O'Rourke j...@best.com www.jor.com
'96 BMW r850R
last dive: Santa Cruz Island, California
August 22nd, 13 mins at 47 ft max (64F, no wetsuit)
Kenneth A. Smith
> Especially since statistics state that 75% of us have been certified by
> PADI. Correct me if I'm wrong.
McDonalds sells 75% of the hamburgers.....ever taste one ?
Ken
Scuba@cyberdude
<snip>
I therefore wonder what many of the pseudo experts in
>this ng would do if charged with the responsibility for
establishing
>standards that would appease the harshest of critics while
simultaneously
>satisfying the following:
>
>- provide for diver safety;
>- ensure continued world wide growth;
>- satisfy the vast international legal requirements;
>- avoid government intervention and regulation;
>- enable economic incentive to dive shop owners,
instructors, etc.
>- standardize training methods accounting for 3rd
world economies,
>varied locations, facilities, weather, desires, laws,
personnel, etc., etc.,
>etc.;
>- provide opportunities ( employment and diving)
for physically
>challenged, elder, minority and those less fortunate than
others;
>- environmental objectives;
>- tourism ( many economies rely heavily on the dive
industry);
>
>>
>
but perhaps this ng
>could be used as a productive forum to address many of the
most common
>criticisms.
Yep - Here it is. It's called NAUI. Granted, it's the
instructor course.
Be thoroughly familiar with the academic topics of a Scuba
Diver Course. The NAUI Advanced Diving Technologies and
Techniques text is your best source, but you will also be
wise to have read the NOAA Diving Manual , the US Navy
Diving Manual (Vol I), and as many other scuba textbooks as
you can find. You should be familiar with and able to
discuss thoroughly the below topics. Air embolism
Alcohol and diving
Alternobaric vertigo
Altitude diving
Archimedes Principal
Alveoli
Basic scuba regulator operation
Beaufort scale
Benthic zone
Boyle's Law
Buddy system
Calculating surface air consumption
Calculating pressure change with change in temperature
Calculating pressure at depth
Calculating buoyancy fresh/salt water Carbon Monoxide
Poisoning
Carbon Dioxide Poisoning
Carotid sinus reflex
Charles' Law
Ciguatera
Circulatory system
Color absorption in water
Composition of air
Cylinder inspections
Cylinder markings
Cylinder tests
Dalton's Law
Decompression sickness
Decompression illness
Diurnal, semidiurnal & mixed tides
Dive table terms
Diver's colic
Diving fitness
Diving after flying
EANx
Ear squeeze
Eustachian tube
Exposure suits
Fall turnover
Flying after diving
Frenzel maneuver
Gay-Lussac's Law
General Gas Law
Haldane's ratio
Halocline
Heat stress
Heat loss in water
Henry's Law
Hyperthermia
Hyperventilation
Hypocapnia
Hypolimnion
Hypothermia
Light in water
Light refraction
Litoral zone
Long shore currents
Mask squeeze
Mediastinal emphysema
Medical contraindications to diving
Nasopharangeal valve
Near drowning
Need, value and features of dive fins
Need, value and features of a snorkel
Need and value of continuing education
Need, value and features of a mask
Nematocyst
Nitrogen Narcosis
Oxygen toxicity
Partial pressure
Patent foramen ovale
Pneumothorax
Properties of water vs air
Properties of aluminum
Properties of steel cylinders
Rebound effect
Red tide
Residual nitrogen
Respiratory system
Respiratory tidal volume
Respiratory residual volume
Respiratory minute volume
Reverse block
Rip tides
Risks in diving
Search Patterns
Seiches
Set & Drift
Shallow water blackout
Sinus squeeze
Slack water
Speed of sound in water
Spontaneous pneumothorax
States of buoyancy
Storing cylinders
Subcutaneous emphysema
Surface air consumption
Surge
Thermocline
Temperature conversions
Tides and Currents
Tissue half-times
Toynbee maneuver
Tympanic membrane
Undertow
Underwater search patterns
Using NAUI Dive Tables
Using NAUI Dive Time Calculator
Valsalva maneuver
Wave height
Wave length
Wave period
All these topics may not all come up in your ITC or ITP, and
topics not on this list may. Nonetheless, if you are
knowledgeable in these areas, you have gone a long way
towards making your ITC or ITP a more meaningful and
profitable experience.
Help a NAUI Instructor in classes. Not only in confined and
open water training, but also in the classroom. Observe
teaching styles and techniques, use of training aids,
student counseling and instructor/student rapport. Make
notes on classroom organization.
Using the Scuba Diver Instructor Guide as a guide, prepare
your own teaching notes for an entire course. Writing your
own notes, in your own thought pattern, is one of the best
ways to organize, in your mind and on paper, your
presentations.
Put together all the required documentation you will need
for the ITC or ITP and bring it with you in a neat folder:
Medical examination for diving
Copies of all scuba certifications
Copy of your current certification in First Aid
Copy of your current certification in CPR (Professional
Level)
Two passport size photographs (head & shoulders)
Practice your water skills. Come to the ITC or ITP able to
perform them to demonstration quality. They are all
explained in detail in the Standards and Policies manual.
Your NAUI Instructor mentor should be willing to help you.
Free style (any strokes) swim (450 yds)
Skin diving dITC or ITPh & recovery
Skin diver rescue
Skin diving swim (900 yds)
Scuba dITC or ITPh & recovery
Scuba bailout
Scuba diver rescue
Underwater swim (25 yards)
Scuba diver transport (50 yards)
Scuba tow (100 yards)
Air sharing
Weight Belt Removal and Replacement
Mask & Regualtor clear
Emergency swimming ascent.
The above is not intended to be intimidating. The
responsibility of teaching others the skills of recreational
scuba diving is serious and a professional instructor is
always prepared.
Kenneth A. Smith
> I am not saying PADI is better
> or worse, just the size of them would make it fact.
Bigger does not equate to better....think about McDonalds......sometimes
is a lower price and faster only....
Ken
Clark Anderson
> Diver wrote:
> > I am not saying PADI is better
> > or worse, just the size of them would make it fact.
>
> Bigger does not equate to better....think about McDonalds
Or Microsoft.
--clark
Steve
MHK wrote in message <6t4bkr$foaq$1...@newssvr04-int.news.prodigy.com>...
>All constructive thoughts are welcomed. If possible, leave the PADI
bashing
>for a different thread, we all know, and have heard repeatedly, the
>complaints maybe now we can hear more thoughts towards progress and less
>digression favoring unwarranted cynicism.
-------------------------
Divescsnow
>PADI. Correct me if I'm wrong.
>
No malace intended but where did you get your statistics.
It is hard for me to believe that PADI has certified 75% more divers than NAUI,
SSI, SDI, YMCA, LA County, PDIC, IDEA, NASDS, NASE and other agencies
combined. Sound to me like it is just another example of the PADI mentality!!
Diver
>It is hard for me to believe that PADI has certified 75% more divers than NAUI,
>SSI, SDI, YMCA, LA County, PDIC, IDEA, NASDS, NASE and other agencies
>combined. Sound to me like it is just another example of the PADI mentality!!
Believe it, I think PADI has someplace close to 80%, NAUI is 7 or 8
SSI is 4 or 5 and the rest follow up. I saw the figures no to long
ago, wish I wrote them down, as I dont remember the exact numbers, but
is was close to the above, give or take a few % points.
If you look around and see the dive shops you should beable to see its
fact. Most diveshops are PADI thus, more divers. Where I live there
are six PADI and one SSI, there was one shop that was NAUI too, but
they no longer have NAUI for some reason. Most places I go to dive
are mostly PADI a few with NAUI and SSI. Cozumel comes to mind, Grand
Caymen too, hmmm Phuket and Pattaya. I am not saying PADI is better
OnAirat500
>Beaufort scale
>Ciguatera
>Seiches
Got all of em' except these. Up for a bit of teaching?
Nathan
Ian Phillips
>I wonder what many of the pseudo experts in this ng would do if charged
with the responsibility for >establishing standards that would appease the
harshest of critics while simultaneouslysatisfying the following:
Ahem, PADI has never been "CHARGED" with the reponsibility for any of the
above or following items. Lets make that clear from the start.
>- provide for diver safety;
PADI could do so by enforcing their own standards. They do so only rarely,
usually only in response to legal action.
>- ensure continued world wide growth;
this is a self-imposed requirement undertaken only to ensure expanding
markets and profits
>- satisfy the vast international legal requirements;
again, PADI does so only in response to legal action.
>- avoid government intervention and regulation;
PADI strenously objects to government intervention only because such
intervention would raise costs to consumers. PADI has no objection to
raising costs to consumers so long as the additional income flows to PADI.
>- enable economic incentive to dive shop owners, instructors, etc.
I appreciate travel incentives as much as anyone else. But, I believe a
little truth in advertising would go a long way in this area. SkinDiver
Magazine was started by ex-NAUI members, but these same ex-NAUI guys started
PADI. Does anybody out there actually trust a SkinDiver Magazine report? I
don't think so.
>- standardize training methods accounting for 3rd world economies,
3rd World countries do not share our legal system. This alone destroys the
concept behind "standardized" training methods. For a start, "requiring"
that PADI standards be achieved as opposed to "advising" that PADI standards
be achieved, would be a big improvement.
As a rhetorical question, does anyone know how much it costs or how long it
takes to gain the title of "Medical Doctor" in India or Pakistan?
>varied locations, facilities, weather, desires, laws, personnel, etc.,
etc.,
Ahem, see above.
>- provide opportunities (employment and diving) for physically
challenged, elder, minority and those less >fortunate than others;
environmental objectives; tourism (many economies rely heavily on the dive
industry);
These goals are terribly altruistic and worthy of sympathy. Unfortunately,
the ultimate result of PADI programs has been "too many people, chasing too
few jobs" and "a declining level of skill among certified divers."
>Obviously, the above list in not all inclusive respecting the voluminous
responsibilities shouldered by a >certifying agency. It does ( I hope )
provide further insight to the substantial undertaking an agency must
>confront.
I am crying my eyes out for PADI
>For the record, I do not pretend to have all the answers but perhaps this
ng could be used as a productive >forum to address many of the most common
criticisms.
One of the most common criticsms is the poor enforcement of existing
standards. PADI is a member of the RSTC and claims to adhere to the
standards put forward by this organization. And yet "3 day courses" and
"long weekend courses" still exist. Again "required" standards as opposed to
"suggested" or "advised" standards would give a certifiying agency a great
deal more credibilitiy.
>Maybe your thoughts have been considered and we can find out why they
haven't been implemented. >Perhaps you will think of something others
haven't considered. This ng has many talented people >participating in
debate, save for a few, the majority of the group is supportive and
productive members of the >diving community.
I look forward to your responses.
>All constructive thoughts are welcomed. If possible, leave the PADI
bashing for a different thread, we all know, and have heard repeatedly, the
complaints maybe now we can hear more thoughts towards progress and less
digression favoring unwarranted cynicism.
I hope that I have provided only the "warranted" cynicism. Again, I look
forward to you response.
Ian
Diver
>
>And I'd quickly increase the min dive / time requirements before allowing
>people to become PADI "Pros." That by itself would do wonders. No more
>DM candidates with 20 dives and a month of experience. No instructors
>with 100 dives in a quarry.
>
How many does the Y require you to have? Take a look at their
homepage. Think you should also take a look at what PADI requires it
DM candidates to have too.
>But I guess you have a different definition of cost effective. PADI's
>loose guidelines gets a lot more OW students then it could get otherwise,
>but those same loose guidelines keep the dropout rate high.
>--
Dont think PADI has loose guidelines. The set standards for their
instructors to follow, and the standards are the same no matter where
you take a PADI lesson. How do they differ from SSI/NAUI? YMCA?
The Agency sets requirements, the instructor follows them. If they
dont the agency takes action, yes PADI does follow up with both good
and bad, does the other two "big" ones?
Think all the PADI bashers can bash without fact to back them up.
Show some hard fact/figures and when you do your bashing will then
mean something, until then it's nothing.
GHorn82707
waters.
George R Horn
Owner Scuba Divine
Brooklyn, NY
(718) 647 1089
Jim.Gr...@cc.gatech.edu
>On 8 Sep 1998 18:24:47 -0700, j...@best.com (Jason O'Rourke) wrote:
>>
>>DM candidates with 20 dives and a month of experience. No instructors
>>with 100 dives in a quarry.
>>
>How many does the Y require you to have?
YMCA requires 50 dives, but they they must be from a variety of
locations (i.e. 10 dives in fresh water, 10 in salt water, 10 night
dives, 10 deep dives, etc). Overlapping of combinations is allowed.
And FWIW, I think 50 dives is too few. I would prefer to see the
standards of all agencies change to require more dives of their
Instructor candidates. I am thinking along the lines of 200
non-training dives, in as great a variety of conditions as possible.
-JimG
--
Jim Greenlee (j...@cc.gatech.edu) Jryy abj lbh'ir tbar naq qbar vg!
Instructor, College of Computing Whfg unq gb xrrc svqqyvat jvgu vg
Georgia Tech, Atlanta, GA 30332 hagvy lbh oebxr vg, qvqa'g lbh ?!
docp...@iname.com
> loose guidelines gets a lot more OW students then it could get otherwise,
> but those same loose guidelines keep the dropout rate high.
And, I guess, you have your own variety of convoluted logic. Let's see, they
have loose standards and so attract lots of students. But, they have such
loose standards the drop out rate is high.
Yes, I would like to see the standards of ALL the agencies toughened up. But
you all need to realize what that means to the sport. Fewer divers. And fewer
divers means increased expense for the equipment, fewer dive operators (at
higher cost) to take you out to the reefs, etc.
--
Perry
==Heisenberg MIGHT have dived here...==
x-no-archive: yes
-----== Posted via Deja News, The Leader in Internet Discussion ==-----
http://www.dejanews.com/rg_mkgrp.xp Create Your Own Free Member Forum
Diver
>>How many does the Y require you to have?
>
Jim,
I just took a look a the YMCA/SCUBA homepage, and have a question. It
states the the program has a three phase training sequence which leads
to SCUBA instructor.
P1 17 years old, 15 logged dives <is this DM training, there was
nothing on the HP about becoming a DM.
P2 Asst Instr. 18 years old, attend observe at least open water diver
courses. Not about # of dives.
P3 Instr. 18 years old, 100 logged dives, 15 hours of lecture, 18
hours of in water teaching.
PADI
DM at least 18 years old, 20 open water dives with night, deep and
navigation to start and 60 to get the rating.
Asst Instr. 18 years old, 60 open water dives.
Instr. 18 years old, 100 open water dives. and at least 64 hours of
training.
Now there is a bit more than the above that leads to the levels, but
looking at the YMCA/SCUBA homepage, and PADI's instructor manual it
looks like PADI requires more, but I know if I looked at the Y's
manual it would show all requirements. Am I wrong?
I have decided to try to learn a bit more about SSI/NAUI/YMCA dive
training. So guide me in the right direction. I am going to cross
over to one of them to be duel qualified and I want to make an
educated decision.
Thanks
Bruce R'. Miller
Kenneth A. Smith wrote in message <35F5F2...@ix.netcom.com>...
>Diver wrote:
>> I am not saying PADI is better
>> or worse, just the size of them would make it fact.
>
>is a lower price and faster only....
In all the years that I've been reading this group, I don't really recall
anyone claiming that PADI was better than any other organization. I have,
however, seen a large number of non-PADI divers claiming that PADI divers
think they are somehow better than everyone else. The most I have ever seen
from PADI divers is that PADI is perfectly adequate and, perhaps, that their
particular instructor did an excellent job.
-bruce
MHK
own standards????
If that's the case, are you therefore satisfied with existing standards but
upset at the alleged lack of enforcement????
Other than enforce existing standards, if you were in charge you wouldn't
change anything???
MHK
Jason O'Rourke wrote in message <6t4lcv$iu$1...@shell9.ba.best.com>...
>
>And I'd quickly increase the min dive / time requirements before allowing
>people to become PADI "Pros." That by itself would do wonders. No more
>DM candidates with 20 dives and a month of experience. No instructors
>with 100 dives in a quarry.
>
FWIW, I agree. I think it has become to easy to be a DM or Instructor.
>But I guess you have a different definition of cost effective. PADI's
>loose guidelines gets a lot more OW students then it could get otherwise,
>but those same loose guidelines keep the dropout rate high.
>-
What guidelines would you propose ????
>Jason O'Rourke j...@best.com www.jor.com
>
>last dive: Santa Cruz Island, California
>August 22nd, 13 mins at 47 ft max (64F, no wetsuit)
I'll be diving Santa Cruz this weekend. How's the vis???
MHK
You make an excellent point. I agree that fewer divers equate to more
expensive equipment, shops, boats, etc.. I guess I am sort of wondering
aloud, what is the proper balance between higher standards -v- less
candidates getting certified. Has PADI ( or NAUI, SSI, YMCA for that
matter) achieved the proper balance?? I don't have the answer, I'm just
raising the issue and reviewing responses.
Jason O'Rourke
>Dont think PADI has loose guidelines. The set standards for their
>instructors to follow, and the standards are the same no matter where
>you take a PADI lesson. How do they differ from SSI/NAUI? YMCA?
There is a notable delta between NAUI and PADI regarding rescue skills.
NAUI OW students can go directly to Rescue, PADI OW go AOW and then
Rescue. (Per my dive shop spring '97 for their dual cert Rescue class).
And then there is the issue of exceeding standards, something that has
been discussed rather heatedly here in the past. NAUI and YMCA
instructors can and frequently do exceed the OW standards while teaching
their class. PAdI instructors have a set series of modules that they
aren't supposed to deviate from. Many do anyway, but it doesn't appear to
be something that HQ would support.
Last, PADI OW students get their C card if they complete the requirements.
PERIOD. NAUI instructors can flunk their students if they think they're
unsafe (ex: does skills fine, but has habit of ditching buddy)
AOW - night dive now optional for PADI? SSI requires you to do some
diving after OW before taking AOW - you either need 25 to start or to have
completed 25 at the end of the class
MD - take rescue plus any 5 specialty courses to get your padi Master
Diver rating. I think we looked at this here and determined you could do
< 20 dives (15?)lifetime and get this. NAUI's was an actual class,
formerly called Advanced, that is longer than the OW.
Can't say regarding the DM standards - do we have a dual agency DM about?
Did PADI eliminate the swimming time tests?
--
Jason O'Rourke j...@best.com www.jor.com
'96 BMW r850R
JCMWeb
donminance than to it's supposed shortcomings. PADI is the big gorilla in the
world of diving certification and is therefore an inviting target. The smaller
operations preach their superiority over the big guy (while ignoring the other
small guys) and this attitude can be transferred to the students. Why defend
PADI? You don't need to because PADI still dominates the market even with the
criticism and the vehemently defending it just makes you come off looking as
idiotic as the vehement attackers.
Take the course(s) with the agency of your choice. Learn everything you can
from the course. Don't assume that a course will cover all the material that
you need; read, ask questions and practice. Keep your nitpicking and idiotic
attacks against other agencies to yourself. Enjoy yourself when you dive. Be
safe.
John Marcos
Jason O'Rourke
>And, I guess, you have your own variety of convoluted logic. Let's see, they
>have loose standards and so attract lots of students. But, they have such
>loose standards the drop out rate is high.
try thinking next time. PADI has paved the way to the 3 day course and
made it possible for anyone without a medical disqualifier to take the
course. But that same process lead to instructors that turn out students
that are really weak on 'why' to dive and they never dive again. They do
not buy gear nor get on boat charters, the problem you talk about below.
>Yes, I would like to see the standards of ALL the agencies toughened up. But
>you all need to realize what that means to the sport. Fewer divers. And fewer
>divers means increased expense for the equipment, fewer dive operators (at
>higher cost) to take you out to the reefs, etc.
--
Diver
Jim,
I should have let you know there is an SSI CD local that I have talked
to and NAUI emailed me a lot of info, and I was able to get a lot of
info from their homepages. YMCA's is still undercontruction, so
nothing there that I could use for the required information. I am
leaning towards NAUI first then SSI only because the person I took my
PADI DM training with has recently become a NAUI CD, next SSI because
it is local and the CD there is good. But some posts made here have
me looking YMCA, but as with NAUI I would have to leave town to take
the training. And the NAUI training would be in Mexico :). And I want
to be duel qual. as someone offered me a job and said they would like
me to have two under mybelt.
Thanks again
Dillon Pyron
>
> Jason O'Rourke wrote in message <6t4lcv$iu$1...@shell9.ba.best.com>...
>
> >
> >And I'd quickly increase the min dive / time requirements before allowing
> >people to become PADI "Pros." That by itself would do wonders. No more
> >DM candidates with 20 dives and a month of experience. No instructors
> >with 100 dives in a quarry.
> >
>
>
> FWIW, I agree. I think it has become to easy to be a DM or Instructor.
>
>
>
> >But I guess you have a different definition of cost effective. PADI's
> >loose guidelines gets a lot more OW students then it could get otherwise,
> >but those same loose guidelines keep the dropout rate high.
> >-
>
> What guidelines would you propose ????
For DM, 100 dives and 2 years certification. For instructor, 150 dives and one
since DM.
Of course, "I got mine, so let's raise the bar" :-) (Although I was certified
for 7 years before I became a DM and had over 100 dives, was a DM/AI for over 3
years and had over 200 dives, including 50+ assisting).
>
>
> >Jason O'Rourke j...@best.com www.jor.com
> >
> >last dive: Santa Cruz Island, California
> >August 22nd, 13 mins at 47 ft max (64F, no wetsuit)
>
> I'll be diving Santa Cruz this weekend. How's the vis???
>
>
--
dillon pyron
dillon...@amd.com
3 days 'til Hawaii
MK
M - Master
C - Card
A - Accepted
:)
Diver
Jason,
>their class. PAdI instructors have a set series of modules that they
>aren't supposed to deviate from. Many do anyway, but it doesn't appear to
I think it's great to have a min. standard set, so no matter where you
go to train, you know what you will be getting. However, everyone has
their likes and dislikes.
>Last, PADI OW students get their C card if they complete the requirements.
>PERIOD. NAUI instructors can flunk their students if they think they're
>unsafe (ex: does skills fine, but has habit of ditching buddy)
But they can and do, I know someone that did not get certified because
he could not do his underwater skills. And the instructor did spend
some extra time with him, extra classes etc., at no extra expense btw.
>AOW - night dive now optional for PADI? SSI requires you to do some
>diving after OW before taking AOW - you either need 25 to start or to have
>completed 25 at the end of the class
Thanks. About the night dive, I think PADI did that as many places
you cannot do a night dive as someone had posted before when the
thread started about PADI dropping it.
>MD - take rescue plus any 5 specialty courses to get your padi Master
>Diver rating. I think we looked at this here and determined you could do
>< 20 dives (15?)lifetime and get this. NAUI's was an actual class,
>formerly called Advanced, that is longer than the OW.
When I took my PADI AOW it was text/diving and it still is btw. Also
you have to take medic first aid before taking the RC.
>Can't say regarding the DM standards - do we have a dual agency DM about?
>Did PADI eliminate the swimming time tests?
For the watermanship and skills you must do the following, and the
better the more points received, if you do not get the min. required
points you fail.
400 yard swin nonstop without aids, 15 minute tread with hands out of
water for last two minutes, 800 yard snorkel swim, 100 yard inert
diver tow. So the swimming time tests are still alive and well :)
Thanks for your input, I really got most of this from NAUI via email,
and I talked to an SSI CD. Now to decide NAUI or SSI. Decided not to
go the Y way based on their locations for training, and additional
info from the person that offered me the job said they want mainly
PADI and backup NAUI or SSI.
I am sure which everone I go with I will receive excellent training to
go along with the excellent training I received from my PADI
instructors. Hope working in Pattaya Thailand is as much fun as it
was when I was there on vacation ;).
Thanks
MHK
JCMWeb wrote in message <199809091925...@ladder01.news.aol.com>...
the vehemently defending it just makes you come off looking as
>idiotic as the vehement attackers.
I am not vehemently defending anything. I merely said put up or shut up.
What would you do differently if given the opportunity to do so.
Keep your nitpicking and idiotic
>attacks against other agencies to yourself
John, did you get up on the wrong side of the bed or what? I challenge you
to cite wherein I attacked another agency in my post. If you read the post
you'll notice that conspicuously absent from such post is any attack at all.
The designed invitation was to put you ( the reader) into the position of
heading a certifying agency. Once in that position describe what you would
do differently. It seems to me a simple exercise, but apparently you missed
it.
H NED Huntzinger
>
> In all the years that I've been reading this group, I don't really recall
My recollections are that it has, upon occasion been _claimed_.
(not surprizing, for this group - we've also seen claims of Purple
Dinosaurs running amock with a shotgun, shooting at hyenas with OO
Buck :-)
> ...The most I have ever seen from PADI divers is that PADI is
> perfectly adequate and, perhaps, that their particular instructor
> did an excellent job.
I think this is pretty universal...virtually *ALL* students will
universally say that _their_ instructor did an excellent job.
This one doesn't strike me as being Agency-unique.
-hh
H NED Huntzinger
> ...I therefore wonder what many of the pseudo experts in
> this ng would do if charged with the responsibility for establishing
> standards that would appease the harshest of critics while simultaneously
> satisfying the following:
>
This effectively means to tighten up quality and improve standards.
Long term, note that this will also lower insurance costs.
IMO, a new and meaningful training system would also be a good idea.
My first step would be to get rid of AOW by merging it into OW-I.
Another cornerstone will be to figure out how to apply the new
set of standards to existing divers so as to get everyone onto
a single, unified baseline instead of perpetuating or increasing
the fragmentation as we have today.
> - ensure continued world wide growth;
This "goal" is at odds with diver safety, plus others.
Idealistically, this one must be sacrificed.
Capitalistically, the opposite has occurred.
IMO, its time for the pendulum to swing back the other way.
> - satisfy the vast international legal requirements;
No government will be opposed to improved safety and
standards (until it costs them money, of course).
Governments dependant on tourism dollars will have
little choice but to go along if their major customer
markets (US, Europe, etc) undergo an internal policy change.
> - avoid government intervention and regulation;
By being listed as a goal, this assumes that "Uncle" is a
bad thing. Maybe its not - it should at least be looked into.
IMO, this will probably be achieved by improving quality/safety.
> - enable economic incentive to dive shop owners, instructors, etc.
Higher standards will mean that the teachers will need to be
more skilled, which means fewer of them. The economics will
take care of themselves for the instructors. In the meantime,
the installed base of current divers will keep the shops going,
particularly as they come in to discover the new training system
and bring themselves up to date. Long term, fewer new students
might have an adverse impact on the shops, but if post-certification
retention is improved (the drop-out rate is currently estimated
at 75+%), it might actually be an upturn.
> - standardize training methods accounting for 3rd world economies,
First step: eliminate the allowance of 100% verbal OW-I
certification tests.
Second step: require all DM & higher certifications have a
hardcopy of their written reports on file at HQ. This should
help to eliminate 100% verbal DM tests, which are a current
standards violation, but happen today anyway.
> - provide opportunities ( employment and diving) for physically
> challenged, elder, minority and those less fortunate than others;
Sorry, some things are "Never Evers". Divers who cannot meet
the standards cannot be certified, although some accomodations
can be made for special training for dependant divers...and
their handlers too.
> - environmental objectives;
> - tourism ( many economies rely heavily on the dive industry);
IMO, these two go together because they are at odds with
each other: environmental objectives will require CONTROL
of tourism growth so as to protect a valued dive destination
from overdevelopment. Generally, the environmental problem
will be to prevent there from being too many divers and the
economic problem the reverse.
Again, because of the installed base of current divers, if
fewer divers are certified in the future, the effects of
these issues are dampened.
Also, note that a harder/more expensive OW course will
attract a more dedicated OW student with a better
ability to pay.
> Accordingly, it is easy to play Monday morning quarterback, but what could
> be done, given the above, differently? What cost effective measures would
> you enact?
Basically, my view is that "cost" (money) has taken the front seat
for too long and there are issues that are building that can
severely impact the industry, perhaps even destroy an Agency or two.
Even so, there are a lot of things that can be done that don't
directly cost anyone a lot of money, such as some of the things
that I've listed above. Yes, there are other implications for
each proposed change, but this is a multi-faceted issue and IMO
the root cause of the problem is that we are getting the BUSINESS
of diving too intertwined with diving itself.
-hh
H NED Huntzinger
>
> There is a notable delta between NAUI and PADI regarding rescue skills.
> NAUI OW students can go directly to Rescue, PADI OW go AOW and then
> Rescue. (Per my dive shop spring '97 for their dual cert Rescue class).
FWIW, I think that there's a "...or equivalent experience..." loophole
in there for the PADI Rescue, although I'm not 100% sure about it.
It still would mean "more dives required", though.
-hh
H NED Huntzinger
>
> Yes, I would like to see the standards of ALL the agencies toughened up. But
> you all need to realize what that means to the sport. Fewer divers. And fewer
> divers means increased expense for the equipment, fewer dive operators (at
> higher cost) to take you out to the reefs, etc.
Perhaps, but its going to take a long time for it to shake out:
If PADI/NAUI/YMCA/SSI/etc all went on strike tomorrow and didn't
certify any more divers, there would be little immediate impact
except in those diveshops who push gear onto fresh OW graduates.
For the rest, there's still a few million of us who are already
certified who routinely take dive trips, buy gear, etc. Overall,
their success is more dependant on _our_ economy, for if there's
an economic downturn, some % of us lose our jobs and don't take
a trip for a few years, etc.
-hh
Kenneth A. Smith
>
> >Diver wrote:
> >> I am not saying PADI is better
> >> or worse, just the size of them would make it fact.
> >
> >Bigger does not equate to better....think about McDonalds......sometimes
> >is a lower price and faster only....
>
> anyone claiming that PADI was better than any other organization.
....that is for sure...
> I have, however, seen a large number of non-PADI divers claiming that >PADI diver think they are somehow better than everyone else.
I dont ever recall seeing this in this NG...can you site the 1 or 2 who
might htink s:0 ?
> The most I have ever seen from PADI divers is that PADI is perfectly adequate and, perhaps, that their
> particular instructor did an excellent job.
....again....name names, site posts...as this is foreign concept in the
time that I have been around here (Years)....
Ken.
MK
S - Shitty
I - Instruction
Kenneth A. Smith
> Thanks, excellent advice. Even with the economic difficulties in some places,
> PADI certifications are running about 50,000 per month. We're hearing from
> a couple folks associated with agencies with do 50, 100, 500? We don't know
> because their numbers are top secret. Sure they are loud here, both or all
> three of them.
>
> Let's put the term "insignificant" on their list to study and focus on what's
> good for the sport.
You know...it is a bit trange around here lately...int he mnay years
that I have been with this NG, I have never seen such slanted views
_towards_ PADI, almost to suggesting that there may be a party line or
even maybe PADI is out there watching and maybe suggesting taht some
associated through whatever connection...try to diffuse growing
dissatisfaction by years ago trained PADI divers over the increasing
feeling by longer term divers (called experienced) about their training
and marketing methods.......
.......just a thought......
To hit a response to this post head one, I offer the following....
bigger does not and has never meant better (and I continue to use the
McDonalds comparison-yuech!) ....also "insignificant" in the minds of
fools is what will eventually topple the big guy with their quality.....
.....and these comments come from a SSI OW, PADI AOW, Rescue and
DMC.....(although due to personal conflicts with ethics....I have not
completed)
Ken
Divescsnow
>diving after OW before taking AOW - you either need 25 to start or to have
>completed 25 at the end of the class
24 Dives are required before certification as AOW
RSTC sets the minimum standards for training. The member agency can add but
not take away.
SSI requires 60 dives for DM and 100 for OWI. This I believe is in line with
all the major agencies.
x
<<S - Sad
S - Shitty
I - Instruction
:)>>
And:
M=?
K=?
-chandler
--
MHK
monitoring this thread. There have been many issues raised that I would
like to see receive further consideration. However, I am not sure I share
your view respecting the separation of the business end from the diving end.
While in a perfect world the two would be mutually exclusive I don't see how
to separate the two.
FWIW, I agree with the consensus of the thread being an increased # of dives
prior to advanced and professional certs. I also have the following
thoughts to offer:
- Regionalize the cert process. In other words, a diver that gets
certified in the cushy, clam, warm waters of the Caribbean "might" not
necessarily have the ability to handle the colder waters of say California
or New York. Add to that currents, swells, wetsuits, etc. This, of course,
would limit revenue from certain regions but in my risk/reward ratio
analysis it's worth it. By way of example let's assume someone is trained
to drive in a small mid-western town with a population of 500 and only 250
cars in town. Once this person receives a drivers license he is authorized
to drive anywhere he wants. But would that person have the skill to drive
mid-town Manhattan where the taxi cab drivers are almost as unforgiving as
the oceans we dive in ?? In any event, I'm not sure the analogy was the
best but it was hopefully illustrative enough to get the point across.
- I would like the C-cards to have a limited lifetime. Say, for
example, they would need to be renewed every 2 or 3 years. If you haven't
dove in that period the cards would expire and some sort of renewal course
refresher) would be mandatory. The problem with the administration of this
is to be considered as well as the very real possibility that people would
or could) doctor there log books. But this suggestion atleast raises the
level of awareness regarding the necessity to be cognizant of the need to
maintain a minimal commitment to your diving skills prior to re-entering the
water. While I think the potential for abuse is possible, it atleast
creates another layer of thinking on behalf of someone who hasn't been in
the water for a while. Moreover, it probably adds a layer of insulation
from any resulting litigation if someone has been proven to doctor there
logbook in order to dive. ( I'm not a lawyer so I am not rendering a legal
opinion. Maybe Phil can jump in here.)
- Finally, I would like to see the Assistant Instructor role increase
to a mandatory requirement. An apprenticeship is invaluable prior to
becoming an Instructor. When I took my DM class my instructor had me assist
him for one year ( about 20 classes) before he certified me. He also had me
assist other Instructors to observe other teaching methods. This too could
be a useful requirement that in addition to your certifying instructor you
must assist 2 other instructors.
Hopefully we will continue to see other suggestions. Thanks for your
thoughts.
Todd E. Werelius
>be done, given the above, differently? What cost effective measures would
>you enact?
I think what is just as important, and in my opinion more so, than the
number of dives is the frequency of diving, and the conditions of said
dives, specifically whether supervised or not.
As an example: I know people who take the certification, then make 10-15
dives while on their vacation a year and thats it. This kind of diving is
enjoyable, but usually it's supervised. Where, when, and for how long is
pretty much decided for you. Not a lot of thinking involed. Ive also seen
some of the worst practices (by divers, not nessecarily the dive staff) on
these ventures.
Under those, or similar circumstances, it's possible to rack up the
requisite requirements and not actually have any real 'Stand Alone' diving
experiences that require you to think etc. I know divers that have 100
dives, and have been diving for 5 years that I wouldnt buddy with, I also
know people who have less than 1 year, but dive all the time and are very
accomplished.
One of the requirements for moving into the pro area might be not only # of
dives, but # of dives over a limited period, say 60 non-supervised dives in
the last 9 months to start DM. That would be an average of 1.6 dives per
weekend. Most of the avid divers I know go at least 1 and usualy 2-4 times
per week. If your not that into the sport why would you want to go pro
anyway?
The only way I could see to really check this out beyond an honor system
would be to add a mag strip to C-Cards that could be used to auto-track
dives when you get an air-fill. You could make it voluntary, since there
would be a bunch of people worried about big brother, but at least the
agency would know the person has been diving on a regular basis for some
period time. Expense would be an issue I guess, but with the internet and
current technology it wouldnt be a very big one.
Jason O'Rourke
>- Regionalize the cert process. In other words, a diver that gets
>certified in the cushy, clam, warm waters of the Caribbean "might" not
>necessarily have the ability to handle the colder waters of say California
>or New York. Add to that currents, swells, wetsuits, etc. This, of course,
So would a Californian diver be "allowed" to dive in New Jersey? That
would be a complicated mess and could destroy the notion of dive travel.
Presumably any cold water diver would be accepted in tropical locations,
but even that isn't appropriate (shift to drift diving, etc). Nothing
good can come out of this.
>- I would like the C-cards to have a limited lifetime. Say, for
>example, they would need to be renewed every 2 or 3 years. If you haven't
>dove in that period the cards would expire and some sort of renewal course
> refresher) would be mandatory. The problem with the administration of this
>is to be considered as well as the very real possibility that people would
> or could) doctor there log books. But this suggestion atleast raises the
>level of awareness regarding the necessity to be cognizant of the need to
PADI would love this, given their questionable promotions with the 'Diving
Society.' Again, the mess created to fix the one problem creates several
more. It's solved best by merely suggesting a refresher course after X
months of inactivity (pick between 6 and 18, I think).
>the water for a while. Moreover, it probably adds a layer of insulation
>from any resulting litigation if someone has been proven to doctor there
>logbook in order to dive. ( I'm not a lawyer so I am not rendering a legal
>opinion. Maybe Phil can jump in here.)
I hope not.
And I doubt much would be gained by adding this hurdle.
>- Finally, I would like to see the Assistant Instructor role increase
>to a mandatory requirement. An apprenticeship is invaluable prior to
>becoming an Instructor. When I took my DM class my instructor had me assist
>him for one year ( about 20 classes) before he certified me. He also had me
>assist other Instructors to observe other teaching methods. This too could
>be a useful requirement that in addition to your certifying instructor you
>must assist 2 other instructors.
This is common practice in the Bay Area - assisting a handful of OW and
perhaps AOW classes. 20 seems a bit excessive for a DM (but the shop made
out pretty well).
--
Jason O'Rourke j...@best.com www.jor.com
'96 BMW r850R
Jason O'Rourke
>The only way I could see to really check this out beyond an honor system
>would be to add a mag strip to C-Cards that could be used to auto-track
>dives when you get an air-fill. You could make it voluntary, since there
>would be a bunch of people worried about big brother, but at least the
>agency would know the person has been diving on a regular basis for some
>period time. Expense would be an issue I guess, but with the internet and
>current technology it wouldnt be a very big one.
Ugh, that's a terrible idea. Moreover, it does no more to prevent fraud
than the logbook check. I merely take the task of doing the tank run for
everyone and I have 8 tanks recorded to me.
It isn't necessary anyway. You can tell a sham just by talking to the
person. THE AGENCY doesn't need to know what I've been doing. And I
doubt all the operations I deal with are interesting in participating
(that is, spending $$) on it.
We see a problem, but we have to decide if it's so big a problem that
these sort of solutions are necessary.
Todd E. Werelius
As I said some would not like this idea, not even sure I do, although I have
no problem with the agency monitoring me if Im a supposed professional, the
airline and other commercial industrys have done it for years. Not a lot
you can do with that type of information anyway except marketing and
training.
>>I merely take the task of doing the tank run for everyone and I have 8
tanks recorded to me.
As to your argument that you make 8 fills and therefore that invalidates the
idea, pretty specious argument. 1st you would still only get one hit on
your card, second most people dont act as gophers. But I understand your
response. In my opinion an agency should pay attention to how often, not
just how many dives are being logged, and over what period of time. The
idea is to see a consistent pattern of diving, that was the point, not
neccesarily the method suggested.
>> Moreover, it does no more to prevent fraud than the logbook check.
I disagree. Yes I suppose if you really wanted to you could just keep
coming in and getting air fills, along with faking the log, but really how
many people do you think would go that far to be deceptive? Faking a log,
assuming you have someone's number to use, is about a 5 minute operation.
Going in to a dive shop once a week for 6-9 months is not so trivial
>>You can tell a sham just by talking to the person.
As to your statement that most can tell how long someone has been diving or
how experienced they are by just talking to them. If we throw out the new
diver as an example I truly doubt it. head knowledge doesnt equate to
experience for one thing and I know a lot of 'Self described experts' that
can't apply anything they talk about to the real world, but they sound good
for the most part.
Diving with them a few times would probably be the only way of making sure
they weren't complete nit wits which an instructor could and should do but
often doesnt in my opinion. Some Instructors are better than others, but Iv
e seen my share of 'Cattle Hearders'.
Case in point. Dove with someone a while ago, 'sounded' experienced. Hit
the water, no problems until a little later on when he lost his gauge over
the shoulder. Completely freaked out. Me and my buddy calmed him down and
all was well, but I wouldnt have expected that from him, if all had gone
well on the dive I still wouldnt have had a clue what was beneath the
surface (no pun inteneded). Problem: He hadnt dove for 9 months, and most
of his dives were supervised resort dives. Although he had about 60 dives
logged that by itself didnt tell the story. Maybe an instructor would have
caught this, maybe not.
>>THE AGENCY doesn't need to know what I've been doing.
Thats the bottom line for some people. And in most cases I would agree, but
in order to avoid regulation by uncle sam I would agree to non intrusive
agency guidelines in it's place. And actually you do let the agency's know
what your doing already to an extent, assuming your an instructor you file
paperwork dont you? The question is not that the agency knows, but what the
agency knows, and to what degree they can qualify that knowledge.
>>And I doubt all the operations I deal with are interesting in
participating
>>(that is, spending $$) on it.
They probably wouldnt want to spend the money, although I think your
exagerating the cost. It could probably be done for less than a $300 one
time fee, assuming they have a computer and most people in the 20th century
do. If it truly did increase the profeciency of instructor and DM
candidates though I think a shop that had a long range view wouldnt blanch.
Anyway thats the wrong question. The right question is would it make sure
DM's or Instructor candiates were experienced enough to guide novices. I
think a different standard with a better monitoring device than a log book
would be a first step in determing someones water experience.
>>We see a problem, but we have to decide if it's so big a problem that
>>these sort of solutions are necessary.
Now there I do agree. Seeing the quality of DM's and students that run
through a lot of the carribean resorts Ive been to, I have to say that the
quality does seem to be diminishing, though DAN statistics dont bear this
out.
Bottom line is I think the standards for DM and Instructors need to be
better managed, and the training the students get need to be a little longer
so that they are more comfortable with their skills.
MHK
Jason O'Rourke wrote in message >
>would be a complicated mess and could destroy the notion of dive travel.
>Presumably any cold water diver would be accepted in tropical locations,
>but even that isn't appropriate (shift to drift diving, etc). Nothing
>good can come out of this.
>
I'm not sure I agree with your analysis. While I think in the begining
stages some confusion ( and certainly some disputes) will occur. However,
once each region was designated its easy to police the rest. For example,
N.Y & Ca. are region #1. Region #1 is designated as top level ( ie: able to
dive anywhere). Cayman is designated region #2 ( ie: able to dive in warm
water locales). If someone is certified in a region #2 locale they should
not dive un-escorted in a region #1 area. Just like ski resorts designate
ski runs ( double black diamond, black diamond etc.) The distinction from
ski resorts being that if not qualified not able to dive without a DM or
Instructor from that region guiding the dive.
Once the initial battles respecting the regional designations have been
fought, the rest is easy.
>
>PADI would love this, given their questionable promotions with the 'Diving
>Society.' Again, the mess created to fix the one problem creates several
>more. It's solved best by merely suggesting a refresher course after X
>months of inactivity (pick between 6 and 18, I think).
>
If you put aside your feelings about PADI and apply this standard to all
certified divers than your fear of "questionable promotions" are eased. Any
diver, irrespective of certifying agency, would have there card expired
after X # of years. The concept being, if your rusty you may need to be
refreshed. Under this principal, even if you are to proud or stubborn to
admit that you need help the standard mandates it.
>
>This is common practice in the Bay Area - assisting a handful of OW and
>perhaps AOW classes.
If it's so common why not standardize it????
>--
>Jason O'Rourke j...@best.com www.jor.com
>'96 BMW r850R
>last dive: Santa Cruz Island, California
>August 22nd, 13 mins at 47 ft max (64F, no wetsuit)
Michael H. Kane
'97 Jaguar XJS, convertible
last dive: Catalina Island, California
August 30, 44 min @ 180ft max. ( 49f, bathing suit only)
docp...@iname.com
> The only way I could see to really check this out beyond an honor system
> would be to add a mag strip to C-Cards that could be used to auto-track
> dives when you get an air-fill.
Heeheeheeheeheehee. What? You were serious? Oh, 'Scuse me...
--
Perry
x-no-archive: yes
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Rtuss
a corresponding decrease in water height on the opposite shore.
smig...@my-dejanews.com
>
> As I said some would not like this idea, not even sure I do, although I have
> no problem with the agency monitoring me if Im a supposed professional, the
> airline and other commercial industrys have done it for years. Not a lot
> you can do with that type of information anyway except marketing and
> training.
>
PADI sends out questionaires to my students. I think it is every 5th for OW,
every 3rd for AOW and rescue and every DM.
>
> >>And I doubt all the operations I deal with are interesting in
> participating
> >>(that is, spending $$) on it.
>
> They probably wouldnt want to spend the money, although I think your
> exagerating the cost. It could probably be done for less than a $300 one
> time fee, assuming they have a computer and most people in the 20th century
> do. If it truly did increase the profeciency of instructor and DM
> candidates though I think a shop that had a long range view wouldnt blanch.
I think most resort area are happy with the log book review and maybe to a
scuba review/skills update in the pool, at the customers cost. Any resort ops
wish to comment??
>
--
----------------------------------------
Visit the Eco-Blue Divers Home Page
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pm...@my-dejanews.com
Michael, you've done it now; Jason really gets pissed off at anyone who dives
deeper, has a nicer car, or knows what he is talking about. The careful if
you see anyone wearing a hockey mask on the sreet.
I have two responses to your basic position: a subjective one and an
objective one. Subjective: I prefer freedom to regulation; and I believe
that individual must be primarily responsible for assuring his own safety
(this does not give another person the right to negligently kill that
individual). Objective: don't be too concerned with potential tort
litigation; this tort crap that's getting so much air time is primarily
political, both the percentage of litigation which is tort and the tort
component of insurance costs are falling, not rising.
I do have a suggestion which can accomplish much of that which you desire
consistent with my view of personal responsibility: every dive operation
should have its own specific assumption of risk waiver, in which it should
state characteristics of the dives and experience required. If a diver
chooses to lie about his experience, you are not liable, for you have
exercised due care in attempting to qualify him for the dive.
Phil
Dillon Pyron
> In article <6t9meh$ae4$1...@brokaw.wa.com>,
> "Todd E. Werelius" <twer...@nc.com> wrote:
> > >>Ugh, that's a terrible idea
> >
> > As I said some would not like this idea, not even sure I do, although I have
> > no problem with the agency monitoring me if Im a supposed professional, the
> > airline and other commercial industrys have done it for years. Not a lot
> > you can do with that type of information anyway except marketing and
> > training.
> >
> I agree as a professional the agency should monitor your performance. I know
> PADI sends out questionaires to my students. I think it is every 5th for OW,
> every 3rd for AOW and rescue and every DM.
>
>
>
>
> >
>
> > >>And I doubt all the operations I deal with are interesting in
> > participating
> > >>(that is, spending $$) on it.
> >
> > They probably wouldnt want to spend the money, although I think your
> > exagerating the cost. It could probably be done for less than a $300 one
> > time fee, assuming they have a computer and most people in the 20th century
> > do. If it truly did increase the profeciency of instructor and DM
> > candidates though I think a shop that had a long range view wouldnt blanch.
>
> I think most resort area are happy with the log book review and maybe to a
> scuba review/skills update in the pool, at the customers cost. Any resort ops
> wish to comment??
I can't speak _for_ CoCo View, but they did have us do a brief skills review at
the start of our first dive (a shore dive). It was rather amusing to watch the 8
instructors/AIs/DMs in our group doing "demonstration quality" AA breathing,
hover and partial flood and clear.
--
dillon pyron
dillon...@amd.com
Hawaii tomorrow, aloha until the 28th
MHK
weekend. I understand thats Jason's home turf.
OTOH, my real concern is diver safety, litigation is just a unwelcomed fact
of life in the dive world. The concept of regionalization seems important
to me because I see, all too often, divers who got certified in Cayman to
willing to jump in colder waters not understanding the additional factors.
Some have never had wetsuits on , aren't properly weighted, never seen
currents or kelp. etc. etc. etc.
Anyway, I'm not sure my notion is practical but I was just throwing it out
there for consideration.
Jason O'Rourke
>stages some confusion ( and certainly some disputes) will occur. However,
>once each region was designated its easy to police the rest. For example,
>N.Y & Ca. are region #1. Region #1 is designated as top level ( ie: able to
>dive anywhere). Cayman is designated region #2 ( ie: able to dive in warm
>water locales). If someone is certified in a region #2 locale they should
>not dive un-escorted in a region #1 area. Just like ski resorts designate
your idea gets worse every day. It just won't work.
Yes, I dive in Northern California which is cold, dark, and has kelp and
waves to deal with. But that doesn't mean anyone here is instantly
qualified to dive wrecks in NJ, or even wall dives in the South Pacific.
I think we very easily lose track of depth when we go somewhere that we
can see the surface at 100 ft as though it were only 30 feet above us.
And in Seattle you have to be very aware of currents and tend to dive at
slack tide. In Monterey most of us dive from shore which requires a whole
new set of skills.
And at the same time, I don't think people who dive the galapogos need a
DM escort if they stray north. There are numerous warm water divers that
need little more than a bit of friendly advice when they go somewhere
else.
The NAUI Advanced book (for the now named Master Diver course, not the
pansy OWII one) has a chapter on just about every different type of
specialty diving: wrecks, night, low viz, S&R, drift, boat, etc. Read
about the type you're going to, talk to some local people, and go do it.
If you think you can use a local buddy, or even a DM, go for it. If not,
just do it. I just can't see any problem that requires inconveniencing so
many others.
>Once the initial battles respecting the regional designations have been
>fought, the rest is easy.
look at the battles here for force fins or spare deaths, or the eternal
lack of respect the agencies have for each other (well, the certified
divers of these agencies). These initial battles would never end.
>>Jason O'Rourke j...@best.com www.jor.com
>>'96 BMW r850R
>>last dive: Santa Cruz Island, California
>>August 22nd, 13 mins at 47 ft max (64F, no wetsuit)
>Michael H. Kane
>'97 Jaguar XJS, convertible
>last dive: Catalina Island, California
>August 30, 44 min @ 180ft max. ( 49f, bathing suit only)
yawn, another twit who can't tell the difference between a bike and a
cage. Mine's faster.
MHK
Jason O'Rourke wrote in message <6tbpkm$989$1...@shell9.ba.best.com>...
In Monterey most of us dive from shore which requires a whole
>new set of skills.
Your rebuttal exemplifies my very point. So, although you disagree with me,
you state a compelling case for my position. By your own admission diving
in your neck of the woods " requires a whole new set of skills". My very
point is that someone who completed the open water course (certifying agency
notwithstanding) has made 5 dives. If such dives were completed in Cayman ,
water temp 82f, calm seas, no current, no wetsuit, no kelp etc. etc. etc..
It would seem obvious that, that diver does not posess the requisite "whole
new set of skills" necessary to dive in your area. By an agency mandate you
would eliminate the peer pressure of someone who may not feel comfortable
diving but is to intimidated to say so. ( I have seen too many wives trying
please husbands or friends trying to look tough in front of other friends to
back out of dives.) Therefore, if certifying status precludes the dive you
avoid the above. This, among other reasons, is why I suggested it.
>
> There are numerous warm water divers that
>need little more than a bit of friendly advice when they go somewhere
>else.
>
Agreed, however many warm water divers need more than friendly advice but ,
for reasons that defy logic, decline to ask. Thus, if you are precluded by
standard the problem is avoided.
>The NAUI Advanced book (for the now named Master Diver course, not the
>pansy OWII one) has a chapter on just about every different type of
>specialty diving: wrecks, night, low viz, S&R, drift, boat, etc. Read
>about the type you're going to, talk to some local people, and go do it.
>If you think you can use a local buddy, or even a DM, go for it. If not,
>just do it. I just can't see any problem that requires inconveniencing so
>many others.
>
Once again, by extension of your own logic you prove my point. NAUI has saw
fit to dedicate entire chapters to different diving conditions. Speciality
courses notwithstanding, ALL certifiying agencies provide for the fact that
once you have earned your C-card you are qualified to make your own
decisions about where to dive. While they may attempt to educate you
mostly via expensive additional courses) about varied conditions the
underlying fact remains the same. Once certified, a diver is authorized to
dive anywhere he/she wants. My feeling is that more often than I would like
to see, once a diver earned that C-card many think that has earned them the
right to take chances they may not be qualified to handle. I don't for one
moment doubt there will be inconviences, but if the death rate reduction is
a source of concern you should be willing to be inconvienced.
s...@mediaone.net
Jason:
Your recent post to this thread validates the entire argument of the
original post.
Jason O'Rourke wrote in message <6tbpkm$989$1...@shell9.ba.best.com>...
>In article <6t9s5q$3252$1...@newssvr04-int.news.prodigy.com>,
>
>your idea gets worse every day. It just won't work.
>
>Yes, I dive in Northern California which is cold, dark, and has kelp and
>waves to deal with. But that doesn't mean anyone here is instantly
>qualified to dive wrecks in NJ, or even wall dives in the South Pacific.
>I think we very easily lose track of depth when we go somewhere that we
>can see the surface at 100 ft as though it were only 30 feet above us.
>And in Seattle you have to be very aware of currents and tend to dive at
>slack tide. In Monterey most of us dive from shore which requires a whole
>new set of skills.
A "whole new set of skills" to dive somewhere or in conditions you
haven't dove before??? Isn't this exactly the point MHK is making, for
all divers, professionals included?
>
>And at the same time, I don't think people who dive the galapogos need a
>DM escort if they stray north. There are numerous warm water divers that
>need little more than a bit of friendly advice when they go somewhere
>else.
>
There are many divers, warm water or cold, who have the skills to dive
anywhere. But the percentage of divers who dive once or twice a year,
and primarily in warm water, is much greater. I've worked boats in
California
where we've seen divers, Instructors and Divemasters (Different agencies)
from
Hawaii, Cayman and Florida, that once they got into a full 7mm Wetsuit
farmer
john and top, added the necessary weight, and then jumped into the cold
water
for the first time, many of them panicked or couldn't do the dive. Now,
consider
those newer divers who just got certified on their vacation in, whatever
warm
waters, and now have not dived for a year or two and decide to try to dive
in
Monterey or Redondo Beach or New Jersey, etc.. etc..., conditions different
than those that they were certified in or are use to, what do you think
they'll do?
>The NAUI Advanced book (for the now named Master Diver course, not the
>pansy OWII one) has a chapter on just about every different type of
>specialty diving: wrecks, night, low viz, S&R, drift, boat, etc. Read
>about the type you're going to, talk to some local people, and go do it.
>If you think you can use a local buddy, or even a DM, go for it. If not,
>just do it. I just can't see any problem that requires inconveniencing so
>many others.
>
So let me get this straight, you're saying that if I read the NAUI (or PADI,
or IANTD, or SSI, etc..) section on Deep and Wreck Diving, even though
I may have only dove on warm water reefs before, I should now consider
myself informed enough to make a dive to let's say, the wreck of The Moody
or The Palawan, in water temps that normally average 50 to 65 degrees with
depths approaching 140 ft? It's this kind of mentality, especially when
taken
by newer divers, that get's people killed! And it may not necessarily be
the
diver themself, it might be the rescuer / buddy who's killed, who's trying
to
resuce a diver who's in a dive situation that is way over their skill level.
That
is of course, unless you're recommending that anyone, if they've read the
book on Solo Diving, is also able to dive solo. As in progressive
penetration,
it's important to progress to higher or deeper levels of risk, slowly,
patiently.
Developing skills as you progress through each dive. You may want to
rethink this part of your post.
>>Once the initial battles respecting the regional designations have been
>>fought, the rest is easy.
>
>look at the battles here for force fins or spare deaths, or the eternal
>lack of respect the agencies have for each other (well, the certified
>divers of these agencies). These initial battles would never end.
>
>>>Jason O'Rourke j...@best.com www.jor.com
>>>'96 BMW r850R
>>>last dive: Santa Cruz Island, California
>>>August 22nd, 13 mins at 47 ft max (64F, no wetsuit)
>>Michael H. Kane
>>'97 Jaguar XJS, convertible
>>last dive: Catalina Island, California
>>August 30, 44 min @ 180ft max. ( 49f, bathing suit only)
>
>yawn, another twit who can't tell the difference between a bike and a
>cage. Mine's faster.
>
>--
>Jason O'Rourke j...@best.com www.jor.com
>'96 BMW r850R
>last dive: Santa Cruz Island, California
>August 22nd, 13 mins at 47 ft max (64F, no wetsuit)
The rest of your post is not worth responding to.
This is a great sport that we have all chosen to participate in, whatever
type of diving you do (rec, tech, pro, etc...). But if we as a self
regulated
sport don't find some way, whatever way that is, to keep the sport safe,
Government Regulation is inevitable. And except in certain ways, I don't
think any of us really want that.
As an individual diver, I agree with the idea of some sort of renewable /
regionalized certification card, based on a divers continuing diving, and
more
stringent requirements and enforcement of Instructors and Divemasters. How
or what form this takes, who knows, and yes I agree that there will be
battles
between agencies, divers, organizations, etc... But, that doesn't mean that
we can all just forget the fact that there are still underqualified, and in
some
cases dangerous, Instructors, Divemasters and Divers out there.
As you are entitled to yours, this is just my opinion, along with the hope
"can't we all just get along?????" - Rodney King
Troy Bagwell
NAUI & PADI Divemaster / Master Diver
Tech Eanx / Deep Air I&II / Trimix
s...@mediaone.net
Jason O'Rourke
>In Monterey most of us dive from shore which requires a whole
>>new set of skills.
>
>you state a compelling case for my position. By your own admission diving
Not really. I initially said that you would kill the travel industry
because many of us aren't going to put up with a baby sitter anytime we go
somewhere with different conditions. You then said, ok, California and
East Coasties are in class 1, and qualified to go anywhere. Cayman divers
are class 2, and need the sitter when they leave the tropics.
The world of diving is too diverse to drop into 2 or even 10 bit buckets
of classes, and there is not one class that is instantly qualified to go
anywhere else. You deal with that by letting people THINK FOR THEMSELVES.
This is not a sport where we can go into the water letting other people
(agencies, government, DMs, other divers) thinking for us.
BTW, you didn't respond to my assertion that the respective regions would
never settle on a pecking order of status. And without that, the whole
thing falls apart.
>Agreed, however many warm water divers need more than friendly advice but ,
>for reasons that defy logic, decline to ask. Thus, if you are precluded by
>standard the problem is avoided.
I was amazed to hear about all the different places that would try to
require expereinced divers to present an AOW card before being alloed to
go to rather routine dives (eg, night dive). If you think that this is
acceptable in the name of safety, good for you. But get off my back.
>
>
>>The NAUI Advanced book (for the now named Master Diver course, not the
>>pansy OWII one) has a chapter on just about every different type of
>>specialty diving: wrecks, night, low viz, S&R, drift, boat, etc. Read
>>about the type you're going to, talk to some local people, and go do it.
>>If you think you can use a local buddy, or even a DM, go for it. If not,
>>just do it. I just can't see any problem that requires inconveniencing so
>>many others.
>>
>
>Once again, by extension of your own logic you prove my point. NAUI has saw
>fit to dedicate entire chapters to different diving conditions. Speciality
well, of course. That's the purpose of the text. Read and learn.
>courses notwithstanding, ALL certifiying agencies provide for the fact that
>once you have earned your C-card you are qualified to make your own
>decisions about where to dive. While they may attempt to educate you
But you don't think they are qualified, and propose to take that away.
Very much like the Dems in California and Congress.
>right to take chances they may not be qualified to handle. I don't for one
>moment doubt there will be inconviences, but if the death rate reduction is
>a source of concern you should be willing to be inconvienced.
Really? Why do you think that? While I don't think it is as safe as
Mike Gray does, I am quite comfortable with the incredible low death rate
(< 100 Americans/yr. A chunk are heart attacks, another chunk are tech
and tech training dives.). Factor out idiots who run out of air because
they don't bother to look and you're looking at a pretty small number of
people. Certainly not worth inconveniencing over a million active
American divers.
In practice, the only shops that would go along with this routine would be
the type of shops and boats I'd try to avoid in the first place.
Fortunately, you don't see many of them around in California. When I was
on the Vision for my trip in the Channel Islands, they didn't ask me for
my brownie badge when I did my solo dives. They knew I was in charge of
#1 and wished me good luck with the camera (www.jor.com/dive/catalina for
you aquashot fans).
Jason O'Rourke
<s...@mediaone.net> wrote:
>Your recent post to this thread validates the entire argument of the
>original post.
the hell it does. It merely shows that it's impossible to improve upon
the judgement call of each individual. We have a brain for a reason.
>A "whole new set of skills" to dive somewhere or in conditions you
>haven't dove before??? Isn't this exactly the point MHK is making, for
>all divers, professionals included?
I don't need a specialty course for every new place I've been to.
Preparing for a low viz night dive was good for ten minutes of discussion.
Drift diving in Cozumel was about the same. Cageless diving in the
Farallones was likewise simple - stay on the bottom and don't lose track
of the anchor line for the return leg.
>Hawaii, Cayman and Florida, that once they got into a full 7mm Wetsuit
>farmer >john and top, added the necessary weight, and then jumped into
> the cold water for the first time, many of them panicked or couldn't do
> the dive. Now,
Did any of them die on you? How often did you have to pull them out?
I'll bet most of them managed to get back to the swimstep just fine, if
cold.
>waters, and now have not dived for a year or two and decide to try to dive
>Monterey or Redondo Beach or New Jersey, etc.. etc..., conditions different
>than those that they were certified in or are use to, what do you think
>they'll do?
Some of them embarass themselves pretty badly, and have to be directed in
the right directions. Many more just have a shitty dive and realize they
underestimted what's out there. So long as they have the sense to keep
their BC inflated on the surface most can easily be picked up.
but most people do just fine. Quite a few of the regulars in this group
have made a trip out to Monterey to experience kelp diving and they all
did fine. They may have talked with the ship DM for a few minutes about
what they should be aware of, but then went out and had a good time.
Others solicit a local person here to go out with and get a friendly
introduction that way. It works- why screw it up?
>So let me get this straight, you're saying that if I read the NAUI (or PADI,
>or IANTD, or SSI, etc..) section on Deep and Wreck Diving, even though
>I may have only dove on warm water reefs before, I should now consider
>myself informed enough to make a dive to let's say, the wreck of The Moody
>or The Palawan, in water temps that normally average 50 to 65 degrees with
>depths approaching 140 ft? It's this kind of mentality, especially when
actually, I said go for help if you think it appropriate. Reading
material gives me more info to work with in making that decision.
>is of course, unless you're recommending that anyone, if they've read the
>book on Solo Diving, is also able to dive solo. As in progressive
I don't recommend solo diving to anyone. Only the diver can decide that
one.
>This is a great sport that we have all chosen to participate in, whatever
>type of diving you do (rec, tech, pro, etc...). But if we as a self
>regulated
>sport don't find some way, whatever way that is, to keep the sport safe,
>Government Regulation is inevitable. And except in certain ways, I don't
>think any of us really want that.
The sport is 'safe.'
Kenneth A. Smith
is talking about and ...it is a bit strange.....
MHK wrote about Jasons comments:
> Your rebuttal exemplifies my very point. So, although you disagree with me,
> you state a compelling case for my position. By your own admission diving
> in your neck of the woods " requires a whole new set of skills". My very
> point is that someone who completed the open water course (certifying agency
> notwithstanding) has made 5 dives. If such dives were completed in Cayman ,
> water temp 82f, calm seas, no current, no wetsuit, no kelp etc. etc. etc..
> It would seem obvious that, that diver does not posess the requisite "whole
> new set of skills" necessary to dive in your area. By an agency mandate you
> would eliminate the peer pressure of someone who may not feel comfortable
> diving but is to intimidated to say so. ( I have seen too many wives trying
> please husbands or friends trying to look tough in front of other friends to
> back out of dives.) Therefore, if certifying status precludes the dive you
> avoid the above. This, among other reasons, is why I suggested it.
Sorry I left it all in , but I kept try to snip and foudn it sooo
bizzare that I felt compelled to leave it in for reference.....
MHK----what you're saying would preclude a local diver (non nstructor
status or even DM) from touring competent (in their own lands) visiters
on local dives without paying an ANGENCY and getting certified for a new
location......hardly something any competent diver would accept, even
the local ones......
>
> >
>
> Agreed, however many warm water divers need more than friendly advice but ,
> for reasons that defy logic, decline to ask. Thus, if you are precluded by
> standard the problem is avoided.
This is total BS...if they cant be self sufficient on the surface, then
we should not expect them to be underwater and IMO...if it causes a loss
due to their stupidity...then so be it....This just doent apply to 99.9%
of dviers no matter if they have 1 dive or 1000..... so why put add BS
in place to keep /1% of the population that maybe shouldnt be here in
teh first place......
> Once again, by extension of your own logic you prove my point.
Hardly...or maybe in your convoluted interpretation....
> Once certified, a diver is authorized to
> dive anywhere he/she wants. My feeling is that more often than I would like
> to see, once a diver earned that C-card many think that has earned them the
> right to take chances they may not be qualified to handle.
Hey Sherlock...guess what.. A c-card _does_ qualify all divers to take
whatever chances they feel they are or you feel they are not quailified
to take.....in fact some divers are not qualified to put a tank on
correctly after they obtain their c-card.....and far more are not
quailfied to be within 25 feet of a reef, for the damage they would
create.....The basic c-card is flawed from the start...so why not just
ensure that compentance is a requirement of OW instead of the current
system.....would likely go a lot further to improving the situation....
><snip> but if the death rate reduction is
> a source of concern you should be willing to be inconvienced.
I dont know about you...but most of the deaths I hear about are either
on their own turf or in warm tropical waters or on training
dives.....and thusly...your method of life preservation would improve it
a didly bit...
The other facts you missed in reading Jasons post (mosty due to your
lookng for his concurrance with yours) was the fact that you would
easily have 50 regions and not one or two....for resaons he stated and
many others.....
The reality has to start with tougher guidelines on Instructional
Certifications and then on the definition of competence levels of OW
before the _first_ and maybe final c-card is issued...
Ken
s...@mediaone.net
>I
Jason:
This is the only snip left, because this post is not directed at any one individual diver
or poster on this group. You keep referring the points of the debate back to yourself and
this is not appropriate for the purpose of the post.
And I think you'll admit, that not everyone makes wise decisions in the way they dive,
live, etc... Should we as an industry, merely let someone we, and others, see as a hazard
continue to jeopardize their lives and others? I don't think so. We don't do it in real
life, through laws, etc.., or within our own families, our parents or rules for our
children. If someone really wants to dive beyond their capabilities and potentially kill
themselves and others, they're welcome to go beach diving or on their own boat anytime
they choose. But, if I were a shop owner, boat Captain, or when I'm working as a
Divemaster, not with me! And, definitely not as my buddy.
You admit to seeing the types of divers as described in my post, and although I agree,
each diver is responsible for their own actions in this sport and must think for
themselves, many succumb to peer pressure rather than calling their dive when they may
have reservations, for whatever reason. Remember that old adage, "you never get hurt on a
dive you don't make"?
Fortunately no, the persons mentioned did not die, but yes, we did have to jump in and
assist more than half back to the boat. And until you've been around, or been involved
with, when a full Rescue or Search & Recovery is being conducted, it's hard to take an
objective point of view as to just how dangerous this sport can be. Every diver isn't 25
years old, in great shape without any medical ailments. Divers are human and can be frail
at times. Read some of the DAN reports and you'll see how many people are getting hurt or
killed because of STUPID decisions or dives that they've made, or their spouse or partner
convinced them to make.
This is, in my opinion, the purpose for these post. To find ways of making our sport
safer, without overly self-regulating it. If you look at the variety of post, I think
you'll agree, that the majority of posters believe there is needed improvement in training
and diving standards by all agencies. We can't only look at our own little diving clique
when evaluating how safe our sport is and how to improve it.
In any event, the original post by MHK was looking for other posters thoughts on what they
would do or recommend as improvements to training and diving standards. If you felt that
everything is fine the way it is currently, then what can you contribute to the debate?
If not, what do you recommend as changes to current standards? Very few people have
actually done this, can you?
The sport is only as safe as we make it! Remember, scuba diving gear is life support
gear, not just a set of golf clubs or tennis rackets, or skis, etc....
Troy Bagwell
N&P Divemaster / Master Diver
s...@mediaone.net
I hope and pray that diving is never regulated by the Federal or State Governments.
But, unfortunately, you'd be surprised at just who is interested in scuba diving these
days. Ever heard of OSHA? Wasn't it this federal agency that tried to get involved and
regulate the use of Nitrox, let alone other gases. This was a big topic at DEMA in 98.
This is a current and real threat to our freedom as divers.
I just believe there is room for improvement with current training and standards. I don't
want people telling me I can't make a dive to the Triple Crown at 240-260 fsw, etc...
KEEP DIVING:-)
Troy Bagwell
NAUI & PADI Divemaster / Master Diver
Tech Eanx / Deep Air I&II / Trimix
s...@mediaone.net
p.s.: Can I do a crossover to GOOOWWEEE? What's required? (Loved that post!)
Mike Gray wrote in message <35F9D877...@worldnet.att.net>...
>s...@mediaone.net wrote:
>
>> keep the sport safe,
>> Government Regulation is inevitable.
>
>Let's bury this once and for all. No government in this country has any interest
>in regulating a recreation in which it is difficult to hurt oneself and nearly
>imposible to get killed, and in which there is not enough money changing hands
>to make excise taxes feasible.
>
>They won't regulate scuba and they won't license divers no matter how much you
>beg them too.
>
>Thank God
>
>m
>
MHK
Jason O'Rourke wrote in message <6tck84$585>
>The world of diving is too diverse to drop into 2 or even 10 bit buckets
>of classes, and there is not one class that is instantly qualified to go
>anywhere else. You deal with that by letting people THINK FOR THEMSELVES.
For the sake of bierevity I provided an example that illustrated 2
distinguishable dive locals. I certainly didn't suggest that the whole
world would be divided into 2 groups. The example was for illustrative
purposes only. Be that as it may, I am not adverse to requiring divers to
think for themselves. But the simple basic fact is often times people think
there diving skills are higher than they actually are. In the example I
cited, the newly certified diver who doesn't have the requisite experience
to determine the skills necessary is allowed in harms way. Simply stated, a
diver doesn't know how difficult a dive is until he's diving it. Your
suggestion about reading books to acclimate ones self is turning a blind eye
to the problem. Furthermore, increasingly more & more dive resorts are
insisting on escorted dives. While I view this as a pain in the ass after I
have spent X # of dollars to travel and then have been told I need to be
escorted by someone with less experience than I have, I am willing to endure
the "check out dive" in the name of safety.
>BTW, you didn't respond to my assertion that the respective regions would
>never settle on a pecking order of status.
PADI ( or NAUI et al) do not need anyone's approval to issue THEIR OWN
certification card. When a diver receives a C-card it is an acknowledgment
that he/she has satisfied that particular agencies standard. Therefore, the
agencies certainly retains the right to its own criteria. Do you agree that
an agency should have the right to its own standards???
>Really? Why do you think that? While I don't think it is as safe as
>Mike Gray does, I am quite comfortable with the incredible low death rate
>(< 100 Americans/yr.
I don't know if you have had the horrible experience of attempting
recusitation of a diver who was injured during a dive beyond his limits.
Sadly, I have done this on more than one ocassion. It's truly a life
altering experience.
Certainly not worth inconveniencing over a million active
>American divers.
I think you are overstating the inconvience factor. If the regionalization
designation takes place when a C-card is originally issued then the
obligation to police this effort lies with the person checking your C-card
prior to the dive. Frankly, not that big of an inconvience.
As I said in an earlier response to you I'll be diving Monterey Sunday how's
the vis????
Mike Gray
> My very
> point is that someone who completed the open water course (certifying agency
> notwithstanding) has made 5 dives. If such dives were completed in Cayman ,
> water temp 82f, calm seas, no current, no wetsuit, no kelp etc. etc. etc..
> It would seem obvious that, that diver does not posess the requisite "whole
> new set of skills" necessary to dive in your area.
What you are saying is that local skills are important, basic knowledge among
divers since we were breathing off goat bladders.
If you really believe that "area restricted" CCards are better than the local
checkout dives that anyone with half a brain already does, you probably also
believe, as you've hinted several times, that a warm water diver is incompetent
in cold water, but not vice versa.
regards
m
Mike Gray
> keep the sport safe,
> Government Regulation is inevitable.
Let's bury this once and for all. No government in this country has any interest
MK
>
>
> Michael, you've done it now; Jason really gets pissed off at anyone who dives
> deeper, has a nicer car, or knows what he is talking about. The careful if
> you see anyone wearing a hockey mask on the sreet.
>
>
> Phil
>
Another insult!!! You're being dishonest again. How about my apology....
--
MK
============================
Simons Law-
Everything put together falls
apart sooner or later.
============================
Mike Gray
> days. Ever heard of OSHA? Wasn't it this federal agency that tried to get involved and
> regulate the use of Nitrox, let alone other gases. This was a big topic at DEMA in 98.
> This is a current and real threat to our freedom as divers.
OSHA does and always has regulated the use of all gases used in commercial diving. OSHA has
stated unequicocally half a dozen times that they don't give a sweet shit if rec divers want
to breathe pure carbon monoxide. There are always a few old maids at DEMA and elsewhere who
think that just because the gov't wants to break up MicroSoft, they're gonna take your dive
computer away from you. They're not. It's stupid. There will always be someone warning about
the gov't scuba police.
Forget it.
> I just believe there is room for improvement with current training and standards.
Existing standards and training are massive overkill. All you need to know is which hole the
regulator goes in. If you can't figure out the rest, you probably can't find the ocean with a
map anyway.
enjoy
m
Divescsnow
You think!!! Do not think my friend, provide pecifics!!
!>I saw the figures no to long
>ago, wish I wrote them down
Sounds like you have no basis for your PADI mentality!! Stick your head in the
sand again!!
>Most diveshops are PADI
What do you base this statement upon.
>Where I live there
>are six PADI and one SSI, there was one shop that was NAUI too,
Where I live there are 2 PADI store and one SSi. The SSI store has taught 75
percent more students than all the stores in this area. Does that make them
better or SSI bigger?/
> I am not saying PADI is better
>or worse, just the size of them would make it fact.
So you are saying that bigger is better. Then that goes along with we are from
the government and we are here to help, because we are biggeer.
Bigger is not always better. PADI is by far the largest agency. Is it better?
Maybe yes, maybe no. Do not begin to suggest that because someone one is
bigger they are better.
P. S. I hate MacDonalds
Divescsnow
Please qualify your numbers!!!
Divescsnow
>certify any more divers, there would be little immediate impact
>except in those diveshops who push gear onto fresh OW graduates.
>
So what you are saying is PADI shops do not push gear. Sounds like the
elevator does not go to the top floor in your case.
>or the rest, there's still a few million of us who are already
>certified who routinely take dive trips, buy gear, etc.
Who many cylum sticks can you buy to keep the dive shop doors open. How many
VIP will it take.
The life of the industry is in the new blood and continuieing education!!!
H NED Huntzinger
>
> RSTC sets the minimum standards for training. The member agency can add but
> not take away.
Actually, refer to ANSI Z86.3 (1989) for the minimum standards.
-hh
FSalterjr
>or worse, just the size of them would make it fact.
That is unadulterated bullshit. That's like saying that Communism is right
just because the majority of the people on the planet live in a communist
country.
Fred
pm...@my-dejanews.com
LMB...@link.net wrote:
> pm...@my-dejanews.com wrote:
> >
>
> >
> > Michael, you've done it now; Jason really gets pissed off at anyone who
dives
> > deeper, has a nicer car, or knows what he is talking about. The careful if
> > you see anyone wearing a hockey mask on the sreet.
> >
>
> >
> > Phil
> >
> Another insult!!! You're being dishonest again. How about my apology....
>
> --
> MK
I was responding in kind to Jason's previous insult.You have made the
accusation that I start fights.An honest person would support his allegation
or apologise;twice you have made citations to where I was only responding to
those who gratuitously attacked me.I presume from this that you are a
dishonest person. phil
docp...@iname.com
> That's like saying that Communism is right
> just because the majority of the people on the planet live in a communist
> country.
>
> Fred
>
Agreed, Fred. But it does make it easy to find a communist if you need one...
--
Perry
x-no-archive: yes
Jason O'Rourke
>For the sake of bierevity I provided an example that illustrated 2
>distinguishable dive locals. I certainly didn't suggest that the whole
>world would be divided into 2 groups. The example was for illustrative
But how would it be divided? It's just not possible, without being a
greater pain than value.
>insisting on escorted dives. While I view this as a pain in the ass after I
>have spent X # of dollars to travel and then have been told I need to be
>escorted by someone with less experience than I have, I am willing to endure
>the "check out dive" in the name of safety.
If the consumers refuse to accept it, it will change. And most
destinations have outfits oriented to clued divers. Vote with your
dollars. I won't spend money and then waste time because they don't
believe I am qualified. They can start with an easy dive site, but it
will be a real dive.
> I don't know if you have had the horrible experience of attempting
>recusitation of a diver who was injured during a dive beyond his limits.
>Sadly, I have done this on more than one ocassion. It's truly a life
>altering experience.
I'm sure it is. Likewise to motorcycle accidents, hiking deaths, and car
wrecks. Or any other accidental death for that matter. Perhaps you are
unable to step away from that and look at this objectively. What you
propose would do well to save 5-10 lives per year, at an extremely high
cost.
>As I said in an earlier response to you I'll be diving Monterey Sunday how's
>the vis????
It's mediocre to fair, depending on the day. Last month seemed much
better. Some of the offshore locales have been very good.
Jason O'Rourke
Please use shorter lines - the wraparound makes it hard to read.
>And I think you'll admit, that not everyone makes wise decisions in the
>way they dive, >live, etc... Should we as an industry, merely let
>someone and others, see as a hazard >continue to jeopardize their lives
> andothers? I don't think so. We don't do it in real
The industry has its chance when it does the OW training. Some take this
seriously, others as a means to get money out of them and little more.
(I won't name names, but I think my opinions there have been stated).
>they choose. But, if I were a shop owner, boat Captain, or when I'm
> working as a >Divemaster, not with me! And, definitely not as my buddy.
You can set your rules, and be the safety nazis of the sea on your boat,
if you so choose. Some markets may even reward that. California is
probably not one of them.
>In any event, the original post by MHK was looking for other posters
>thoughts on what they >would do or recommend as improvements to training
>and diving standards. If you felt that >everything is fine the way it is
>currently, then what can you contribute to the debate? >If not, what do
>you recommend as changes to current standards? Very few people have
>actually done this, can you?
I have made many suggestions, in fact. Feel free to check dejanews. But
I certainly don't support a notion of regional certification. I think
even BSAC to be overly mothering of people who should be left to make more
of their own decisions.
FSalterjr
both communists and PADI folks)
Fred
Divescsnow
>
So what is your point?
MHK
Jason O'Rourke wrote in message <6tju7q$9u5>
>But how would it be divided? It's just not possible, without being a
>greater pain than value.
Agreed that it initially would be a big pain, but once established it's
relatively simple. The division would go something like dividing all dive
areas into , let's say for puroses of discusion only, 10 groups ranging in
difficulty from 1 - 10. I being the most difficult 10 being the easiest,
If certified in a group higher then the group that you are diving in then
the diver requires an escort. If certified in a group equal to or lesser
than then proposed dive site then no escort required. It really doesn't
seem that difficult once the boundaries are established. FWIW, it's just a
thought so I don't understand why you are so upset about it.
>
>I'm sure it is. Likewise to motorcycle accidents, hiking deaths, and car
>wrecks. Or any other accidental death for that matter. Perhaps you are
>unable to step away from that and look at this objectively. What you
>propose would do well to save 5-10 lives per year, at an extremely high
>cost.
If one of those 5-10 lives were your wife or child would you feel
differently??
>
>It's mediocre to fair, depending on the day. Last month seemed much
>better. Some of the offshore locales have been very good.
>
Dove the wreck of the Victory just outside the Monterey Penisula on Sunday.
Max depth 220ft. 56f water temp. vis about 30ft at depth.
MK
>
>
> I was responding in kind to Jason's previous insult.You have made the
> accusation that I start fights.An honest person would support his allegation
> or apologise;twice you have made citations to where I was only responding to
> those who gratuitously attacked me.I presume from this that you are a
> dishonest person. phil
>
You were replying directly to someone else's post and you chose to insult
another. Now you're just plain lying. Seeing that you have no integrity or
honor, I think I'll honor you by letting you be the very first person in my
kill file. You may be lonely you're going to be there all by yourself.
H NED Huntzinger
>
> >Actually, refer to ANSI Z86.3 (1989) for the minimum standards.
> >
>
> So what is your point?
Its a technical correction.
Its a real document that the public can actually go to
a technical library and get a copy to read for
themselves what the specifics are. Finally, the RSTC
standards fall "under" it in terms of hiarchy.
I think you and I have discussed this one before.
-hh