divers vs. life insurance companies:update
Greg Kerr
insurance policy came up for renewal and my broker suggested that he
could get me a slightly better rate with another company so I agreed to
switch. I filled out the forms, had a physical with a nurse
representative and set up a payment plan. On one of the forms I was
asked two questions (1) do you dive (2) what is your greatest depth. I
answered (1) yes (2) 130 ft. I based my answer of depth on the dive
industry standard of 130 ft. being the suggested maximum depth for rec.
diving, automatically assuming that the insurance company would be aware
and in agreement. Imagine my shock when I received a letter from the
insurance company saying that I was considered a high risk diver and the
insurance company would only insure me with a waiver against scuba
diving or pay an extra hundred bucks a month for this "high risk"
activity. Worse yet I had already cancelled my original policy and was
now without coverage. I have two kids from a previous marriage and a
mortgage on a house I share with my common law so there are people that
need some coverage should I have ever croak. I called my (now ex)
insurance broker and he said that there was nothing that could be done
and that any life insurance company would feel the same way. I called an
underwriter at the company and he(obviously a non diver) said I was
diving dangerously because I had a small percentage of my dives over 100
ft.
Well fortunately this story has a happy ending. Through my first post I
was put in touch with John Vigars, an insurance broker and very
experienced dive instructor. John contacted the representative of
another company and had a form faxed to me. This form asked all kinds of
intelligent questions about diving: how often, certification levels,
where, how long, type of equipment, keep a log book, etc. I filled this
out and John has informed me that my application has been accepted and I
now have life insurance coverage without have to pay that ridiculous
rip-off premium. It turns out that the new company realizes that I am a
safe diver. Their concern involves divers that do cave, ice or
decompression diving as high risk divers.
What really upset me about the first company was that they asked only
two questions about diving. Never mind twenty-years experience, dive
master rating, 100 dives per year, redundant air supply, never dive
solo, new quality equipment, and lots of speciality courses and
continuing education. Yet some yahoo who dives to 60 ft. once every few
years on a holiday with rented equipment with an umpteen year old basic
OW card is considered "safe".
Obviously the company that I am now with is much more tuned in to scuba
diving than is the other. Also my first insurance broker didn't have a
clue so he gets the boot also. This should be a lesson to all divers.
This makes me wonder about the organizations that we pay fees to - PADI,
NAUI, DAN, etc. I feel that perhaps they should have spent more time
educating life insurance companies, etc. about diving and what is safe
and what isn't. Also perhaps they should also make recommendations to
their members as to who is/isn't diver friendly and we could support or
boycott those companies.
Any discussion on this?
MHK
to the forefront, albeit not necessarily by your choice. I hope everyone
takes a look at these issues based upon your problems and if one person can
benefit from this mess I hope it makes it a worthwhile exercise. IMO it's
better to be a step ahead of the insurance companies rather than be a step
behind, after you are gone, and having grieving relatives dealing with it.
Charlie Hammond
In article <3613C9D1...@on.aibn.com>,
Greg Kerr <gr...@on.aibn.com> writes:
>...My life
>insurance policy came up for renewal and my broker suggested that he
>could get me a slightly better rate with another company so I agreed to
>insurance company saying that I was considered a high risk diver...
>... I had already cancelled my original policy...
..
>This makes me wonder about the organizations that we pay fees to - PADI,
>NAUI, DAN, etc. I feel that perhaps they should have spent more time
..
>Any discussion on this?
Well, you asked for it -- My opinion is not very flattering.
First, you and/or your agent acted incredibly stupidly to cancel one policy
before the replacement was accepted.
Second, you blame PADI, NAUI, DAN, etc. for the problem that you caused.
I mean, REALLY now! These organizations are not in the buisiness of educating
life insurance companies, and I certainly do not want to pay them to do so.
You make a mistake. Take responsibility for having done so. And also take
credit for finding new coverage at a reasonable rate. I am glad that you
appear to have come out O.K. from a bad situation.
--
Charlie Hammond -- Compaq Computer Corporation -- Pompano Beach FL USA
(ham...@peek.ppb.dec.com -- remove "@not" when replying)
All opinions expressed are my own and not necessarily my employer's.
Greg Kerr
Charlie Hammond wrote:
> ..
> >This makes me wonder about the organizations that we pay fees to - PADI,
> >NAUI, DAN, etc. I feel that perhaps they should have spent more time
> >educating life insurance companies, etc. ..
> ..
> >Any discussion on this?
>
> Well, you asked for it -- My opinion is not very flattering.
>
> First, you and/or your agent acted incredibly stupidly to cancel one policy
> before the replacement was accepted.
>
Actually not my fault. The agent told me the new policy was in place. That's when
I cancelled the old.
> Second, you blame PADI, NAUI, DAN, etc. for the problem that you caused.
> I mean, REALLY now! These organizations are not in the buisiness of educating
> life insurance companies, and I certainly do not want to pay them to do so.
>
Where did I say I am blaming them. I am suggesting that they should consider
looking at the role of education or dialogue with things like life insurance
companies. I am also suggesting that they might make recommendations for diver
friendly companies for us to give our business. They had nothing to do with my(now
solved)problem. I am posting this story to help out some other diver who might run
into a problem with a life insurance company in the future.
> You make a mistake. Take responsibility for having done so.
I do, damn it!!!
Jesse Sands
>Well fortunately this story has a happy ending. Through my first post I
>was put in touch with John Vigars, an insurance broker and very
>experienced dive instructor. John contacted the representative of
>another company and had a form faxed to me. This form asked all kinds of
>intelligent questions about diving: how often, certification levels,
>where, how long, type of equipment, keep a log book, etc. I filled this
>out and John has informed me that my application has been accepted and I
>now have life insurance coverage without have to pay that ridiculous
>rip-off premium. It turns out that the new company realizes that I am a
>safe diver. Their concern involves divers that do cave, ice or
>decompression diving as high risk divers.
>
>Any discussion on this?
>
I'd like to see you post the names of the respective companies and
your old agent, as well as a phone number for John Vigars' agency.
Those who are diver-friendly deserve to be recognized, as do those who
are not. As long as what you posted was the truth you should have no
worries about exposing yourself to liability for naming names, but if
you still hesitate out of abundance of caution, at least tell us the
names and numbers of the good agent & insurer. Word of mouth is the
best advertising, and they seem to deserve as much of it as possible.
Jesse
spam filter: Remove bob from domain name
Greg Kerr
Jesse Sands wrote:
> On Thu, 01 Oct 1998 15:37:37 GMT, Greg Kerr <gr...@on.aibn.com> wrote:
>
> >Well fortunately this story has a happy ending. Through my first post I
> >was put in touch with John Vigars, an insurance broker and very
> >experienced dive instructor. John contacted the representative of
> >another company and had a form faxed to me. This form asked all kinds of
> >intelligent questions about diving: how often, certification levels,
> >where, how long, type of equipment, keep a log book, etc. I filled this
> >out and John has informed me that my application has been accepted and I
> >now have life insurance coverage without have to pay that ridiculous
> >rip-off premium. It turns out that the new company realizes that I am a
> >safe diver. Their concern involves divers that do cave, ice or
> >decompression diving as high risk divers.
> >
> >Any discussion on this?
> >
>
> I'd like to see you post the names of the respective companies and
> your old agent, as well as a phone number for John Vigars' agency.
> Those who are diver-friendly deserve to be recognized, as do those who
> are not. AJesse
>
> spam filter: Remove bob from domain name
Actually John Vigars from London,Ont. is an independent broker who is only
licensed to sell insurance in Ontario as far as I know. If anyone wants his
number to buy insurance and is looking for a good broker in Ontario then
Email me and I will happily send it to them. As for my other broker as far as
I am concerned the guy made a mistake and I don't think that it is
appropriate to drag his name through the mud for it. I think what is more
beneficial to divers is to name the companies involved. The first company is
the TranAmerica Life Insurance Company of Canada who gave me the hassle with
being a diver. The more diver friendly life insurance company that gets my
full recommendation is Westbury Life. Anyone seeking a policy with this
company should contact an insurance broker in their area. I don't know if
Westbury Life only operates in Canada or is an international company
operating outside of our borders.
The point that I am trying to make is that if you want life insurance and are
a diver then it is best to shop around as policies from one company to
another show quite a bit of variation. If you have life insurance now I would
strongly recommend checking the wording of your policy. If unsatisfactory
then now be aware that there is always another alternative. I hope my
experience will help someone else in the future.
Greg
Bob Crownfield
>
> Jesse Sands wrote:
>
> > On Thu, 01 Oct 1998 15:37:37 GMT, Greg Kerr <gr...@on.aibn.com> wrote:
> As for my other broker as far as
> I am concerned the guy made a mistake and I don't think that it is
> appropriate to drag his name through the mud for it.
Greg:
The one (__O*N*E__) purpose for an insurance agent is to protect you
from financial loss.
He failed.
>
> Greg
--
Bob Crownfield: Pilot, Photographer, Diver, Delphi RAD addict
-
Unsolicited commercial email in violation of federal code
will be addressed in court.
Le Belgo
>> Well, you asked for it -- My opinion is not very flattering.
>>
>> First, you and/or your agent acted incredibly stupidly to cancel one policy
>> before the replacement was accepted.
>>
>
>Actually not my fault. The agent told me the new policy was in place. That's
>when
>I cancelled the old.
Please, complain to the insurance commissioner or whoever oversees
insurance agents in your province. For your agent to tell you a new life
insurance was in place when it wasn't seems criminal, as well as incredibly
dishonest and dangerous (and outrageous in anyone's mind). If you ever find
yourself in that situation again, I do know that there is a grace period for
renewal of a life insurance policy, albeit not well advertised. Here in
California, it's at least 2 months. In the worst-case scenario, just let them
exclude scuba. Scuba has a very low mortality rate. You can probably even get
a separate policy at a lower rate than that if you really wanted to.
David C. Harry
> Any discussion on this?
>
Another interesting note is that insurance agencys carry malpractice
insurance. What this means is that thru advising you to drop your already
qualified for and covered by policy he has done a gross malpractice to you
which could have really hosed you if you hadn't been able to get coverage
at the same or better rate from somewhere else or if you should've had to
make a claim. If your premiums have increased, your ex-agent owes you the
difference. Of course the lawyer fees probably wouldn't make it
worthwhile. At least you learned he was incompetant before you really got
backsided.
David
ch...@digitalexp.com
true that agent #2 was pretty dim by not telling you that scuba would be
an underwriting problem. Any agent with any experience knows that
diving, piloting, racing, and the like are potential problems. However,
this would not be considered "gross malpractice" (what you actually mean
is gross negligence). If there had been a claim (IE you died), there
could be a legitamate E&O claim. However, the agent does not owe you the
difference. He screwed up. It happens. It's called "life". The
lawyer fees that you mention would not happen, I doubt any attorney
would take the case. Yes, there is legal precedent here.
I do agree that the agent is incompetent. This was a no-brainer.
Chan
FL insurance agent
--
- ch...@digitalexp.com
Charlie Hammond
In article <3613E56F...@on.aibn.com>, Greg Kerr <gr...@on.aibn.com> writes:
>Charlie Hammond wrote:
..
>> First, you and/or your agent acted incredibly stupidly to cancel one policy
>> before the replacement was accepted.
>
>Actually not my fault. The agent told me the new policy was in place.
>That's when I cancelled the old.
Then it probably was -- and this issue is that you didn't know about the
no-scuba rider or increased premium issue. Either way, the agent seems to
have acted irresponsibly at best. At worst, you hav a cause for legal
action against the agent. Since things worked out well for you, there is
probably no point in persuing such action. However, as at least one other
post seems to suggest, I think it would be worth a letter documenting this
to your state insurance commissioner. If it serves not purpose other than
improoving this agent so that he/she doesn't make a similar mistake for
someone else, then it is worth the letter. The next "victim" may not be
as fortunate as you.
>> Second, you blame PADI, NAUI, DAN, etc. for the problem that you caused.
>> I mean, REALLY now! These organizations are not in the buisiness of educating
>> life insurance companies, and I certainly do not want to pay them to do so.
>>
>
>Where did I say I am blaming them. I am suggesting that they should consider
>looking at the role of education or dialogue with things like life insurance
>companies. I am also suggesting that they might make recommendations for diver
>friendly companies for us to give our business. ...
O.K., I admit that "blame" was too strong a word, and I appologize.
And I also acknowledge that my "tone" was a bit to hard on you, considering
that it appears rather clear that your agent, and not you, deserves the
blame for this incident.
Nevertheless, I continue to take exception to the idea of getting SCUBA
certifying agencies involved in life insurance issues. It looks to me
like the fault lies with either a dud agent, or with a failure of the
system that educates insurance agents.
I sold life insurance once, for a short time -- I am not a salesman! But I
learned a lot. One of the things I learned about was special risks like fire
fighters, police officers, private pilots, sky dives and SCUBA divers. An
insurance agent is supposed to recognize these types of risks from the
information on your application. He/she is supposed to tell you that a policy
may be denied, or that it may be issued only with an exclusion or with an extra
premium. Your agent appears to have messed up! Again, I suggest you write your
state insurance commissioner.
At the time I was an "agent", it was often better for a private pilot to
have the policy issued with an exclusion for private aircraft travel, and
to purchase a seperate policy covering ONLY private aircraft travel. It
turns out that at least one of the private pilot organizations had made
arrangement for such a policy at resonable rates. This was possible because
concentrating this special risk allowed for proper actuarial evaluation.
That is, it made it possible to see clear statistics showing that the risk
was not unreasonable.
I don't know of any such policy offering for SCUBA divers. Does anybody?
Perhaps that would be a resonable are for SCUBA certifying agencies to
get involved in.
..HMmm... I seem to have gone off on a tangent. Sorry about that.
Glawackus
>From: hammond@not@peek.enet.dec.com (Charlie Hammond)
> a seperate policy covering ONLY private aircraft travel. It
>turns out that at least one of the private pilot organizations had made
>arrangement for such a policy at resonable rates.
>I don't know of any such policy offering for SCUBA divers. Does anybody?
>Perhaps that would be a resonable are for SCUBA certifying agencies to
>get involved in.
I don't know the details on the insurance that PADI offers, but Dan's Master
insurance pays a death benefit, and depth is not an issue. It only pays
$15,000, but it also pays that for losss of 2 limbs or eyes, and 1/2 for loss
of 1 limb or eye. The same policy also covers medical expenses up to $125,000.
If we assume that they pay out 10 times as much for medical as for death
(probably a conservative estimate?), then the death benefit becomes equivalent
to a life insurance policy that pays $150,000 with a $35 annual premium.
Certainly far cheaper than Greg's experience with his company.
Steve
The above can be construed as personal opinion in the absence of a reasonable
belief that it was intended as a statement of fact. Or it might just be to
generate discussion.
Charlie Hammond
In article <19981008163703...@ng131.aol.com>,
glaw...@aol.com (Glawackus) writes:
..
>I don't know the details on the insurance that PADI offers, but Dan's Master
>insurance pays a death benefit, and depth is not an issue. It only pays
I have DAN coverage. It is one of the great values in SCUBA!
But for many people -- including me -- $15,000 is a pretty small part
of life insurance planning.
Glawackus
>From: hammond@not@peek.enet.dec.com (Charlie Hammond)
>glaw...@aol.com (Glawackus) writes:
>..
>>I don't know the details on the insurance that PADI offers, but Dan's Master
>>insurance pays a death benefit,
>$15,000 is a pretty small part
>of life insurance planning.
I wasn't suggesting that $15,000 is adequate. Merely pointing out thast life
insurance specifically for scuba *does* exist, and trying to use it to draw a
reasonable conclusion about comparable cost for a realistic policy. This all
started with somebody who was asked for an extra $1000 in premium because he
was a diver. Unless his policy is for several million, that's clearly out of
line with reality.