Multitheism, Equality and Scouting
Roland L. Behunin
Hello folks,
This is only at present a theoretical problem. This could become a
real problem at some point in time.
The knowledgeable folks on alt.asatru - please if I don't have
everything quite right post a correction.
If an Asatru Kindred wanted to set up a youth program what would you
recommend?
For the folks on rec.scouting, this might involve a bit of background
on what an Asatru Kindred is -
An Asatru Kindred is part of a religion that worships the Northern
Gods and Goddesses. ^^^^^^^^ ^^^^^^^^
philosophy follows
Not sure how to explain it better, you might think of it more in term
of philosophy then religion. The Gods and Goddesses really might be
thought of as more like elder kin.
Yes, Asatru is polytheist.
Okay, part of the problem comes from the concepts outlined in the
Eddas and Sagas.
Both men and women are allowed to go into battle. Half of the battle
fallen go to Valhalla (Odin's hall) and half the battle fallen go to
Freya's Hall. Odin is the God of knowledge and the warrior's god.
Freya is the Goddesses of love and war.
Okay, this also seems to make Freya the Goddesses of Equality between
the sexes.
The Boy Scouts of America does not allow girls in. I have my own
solution set to this problem, but I do not know enough about the Girl
Scouts.
I can think of at least three possible solutions to the problem. Two
of which might be something the trickster Loki might like...
1. Convince the Boy Scouts of America to allow girls in Boy Scout
Troops, at least as far as Asatru Kindreds are concerned.
2. Convince the Girl Scouts to allow boys in Girl Scout Troops, at
least as far as Asatru Kindreds are concerned.
3. When an Asatru Kindred sees the need for a youth program, have
them sponsor both a Boy Scout Troop and a Girl Scout Troop.
So, folks what is the answer to this question?
roland
--
Happy Trails to you. (Nordic, Alpine, bicycle (road/offroad), and hiking.)
I am in Utah, U.S.A, not Canada.
Standard disclaimers apply.
Phone: 801 451-0931, Fax: 801 451-6834, email: ag...@freeenet.carleton.ca
Tom Granvold
Roland L. Behunin <ag...@FreeNet.Carleton.CA> wrote:
>
>Hello folks,
>
>This is only at present a theoretical problem. This could become a
>real problem at some point in time.
>
>The knowledgeable folks on alt.asatru - please if I don't have
>everything quite right post a correction.
>
>If an Asatru Kindred wanted to set up a youth program what would you
>recommend?
<snip brief description of Asatru>
>Both men and women are allowed to go into battle. Half of the battle
>fallen go to Valhalla (Odin's hall) and half the battle fallen go to
>Freya's Hall. Odin is the God of knowledge and the warrior's god.
>Freya is the Goddesses of love and war.
>
>Okay, this also seems to make Freya the Goddesses of Equality between
>the sexes.
>
>The Boy Scouts of America does not allow girls in. I have my own
>solution set to this problem, but I do not know enough about the Girl
>Scouts.
As things are currently, they only possibilibty is to charter both
a Boy Scout and Girl Scout troop. Actually several troops and a pack to
cover all age groups. As far as changing either groups policy to allow
both sexes in, maybe this will happen, maby it won't. Do members of
Asatru believe that there should be no single sex organizations?
Is sounds like we need someone who is a Kindrad of Asatru to state
what they think.
--
Tom Granvold <thomas....@eng.sun.com>
zar...@cog.org
ag...@FreeNet.Carleton.CA (Roland L. Behunin) wrote:
>Hello folks,
>This is only at present a theoretical problem. This could become a
>real problem at some point in time.
>The knowledgeable folks on alt.asatru - please if I don't have
>everything quite right post a correction.
>If an Asatru Kindred wanted to set up a youth program what would you
>recommend?
If the experience of the Wicca is any indication, which I believe it is,
it is a losing battle. Despite their public statements that they
support all boys who follow the Scout Oath and Scout Law, BSA routinely
rejects minority religious organizations from participation. We (The
Covenant of the Goddess - 110 member Wiccan churches) were told that if
we could sponsor units as "the Saturday Bar-Be-Que Association" but
member churches of our religion could not sponsor units. The politics
was that certain large sponsors, (the Baptists) said that they would not
agree to sharing Scouting with other (non-christian) religions. We also
found out that at the same meeting they significantly reduced the
participation of the Unitarian Universalists because of UU's stand on
equal rights. Numerous other smaller religions have met similar
rejections, both for sponsoring troops and for sponsoring youth
religious awards.
I have file drawrers full of correspondence with BSA and official
rejections, appeals, etc. Until they change (the current leaders
probably have to die first) they are unlikely to accept the Asatru
churches as troop sponsors. Sad, but that is the kind of religious
biggorty they practice. There are always the equivalent biggots on this
echo too - seem that they are everywhere that Scouters gather.
Your friend
ZardoZ
P.S. Odin was my first introduction to the Old Gods. Blessed Be!
Steven Malcolm Anderson
writes:
>
>You will, of course, allow gays in your kindred and then allow them to
be
>Scout Masters, right?
If you're anti-feminist, then why aren't _you_ a man's man?
>--
>The promotion of politics exterminates apolitical genes in the
population.
> The promotion of frontiers gives apolitical genes a route to
survival.
> Change the tools and you change the rules.
--
sm...@ix.netcom.com
"The concept of 'greatness' entails being noble,
wanting to be by oneself,
being capable of being different, standing alone..." -Friedrich Nietzsche
"Identity is shaped through confict and opposition." -Camille Paglia
Roger D Carroll
In article <DHqwq...@freenet.carleton.ca>
ag...@FreeNet.Carleton.CA (Roland L. Behunin) writes:
> I can think of at least three possible solutions to the problem. Two
> of which might be something the trickster Loki might like...
>
> 1. Convince the Boy Scouts of America to allow girls in Boy Scout
> Troops, at least as far as Asatru Kindreds are concerned.
>
> 2. Convince the Girl Scouts to allow boys in Girl Scout Troops, at
> least as far as Asatru Kindreds are concerned.
>
> 3. When an Asatru Kindred sees the need for a youth program, have
> them sponsor both a Boy Scout Troop and a Girl Scout Troop.
>
> So, folks what is the answer to this question?
>
> roland
I don' know fer sure if this is a real big problem ever'where else, but
in the Ozarks, we don't have a lot o' you fellers. But ifn' we did,
we'd probly suggest you join the campfire program er sompethin' else
if'n #1 'r #2 wuz realllly 'mportant to ya. Cuz they ain't a gonna
happen. On second thought, mebbe #2'd work. I guess I cain't really
speak ta thet, me not bein' GSA and all. But I'm realllly sure #1 ain't
gonna fly.
I suggest you check with ol' Sean Cox on #3. He's a really smart
feller, edyucated an' all at FSU. He' knows a bunch o' stuff 'bout who
can and who cain't sponsor troops. He'll be around directly. I suggest
you watch this this thread fer his advice.
Good scoutin' to you sir,
Roger
Roger D Carroll
In article <47tsig$l...@newshost.lanl.gov>
"zar...@cog.org" <zar...@cog.org> writes:
> The politics
> was that certain large sponsors, (the Baptists) said that they would not
> agree to sharing Scouting with other (non-christian) religions. We also
> found out that at the same meeting they significantly reduced the
> participation of the Unitarian Universalists because of UU's stand on
> equal rights. Numerous other smaller religions have met similar
> rejections, both for sponsoring troops and for sponsoring youth
> religious awards.
Goolllly! It sure is amazin' the thangs I lern right here on the world
wide web! Man, them Baptists sure are persnickety folks! I sure hope
them Baptists don't find out about these other non-christian religions
whut the BSA already has religious awards fer. I hope they don' pitch
the Buddhists, Islamic, Jewish, Zoroastrians, Meher Baba, Hindu and the
Bahai out on the streets with you Wicca folks. That'd purty bad stuff.
I sure hope they don't go ta burnin' folks neither!. Cats too!
An' do you know whut? Several of them religions have lots a different
gods and all sorts thangs purty strange ta me. But, I always figgered
that if the BSA checked 'em out an' was ta say they was good folks,
then that's good 'nuf fer me. They kin come ta my campfire anytime they
want. I'd even share my apple cobbler with 'em. They'd have ta brang
they's own spoons tho.
C'mon Mr. Zardoz, you already flamed them Baptists at least 2 different
times! Lets us be a little more tolerant in our thoughts. ( I wuz gonna
say "christian in our thoughts," but decided you'd be intolerant of
that.) I read that stuff you said up there. It ain't no surprise at all
why them Baptists don' like Wicca folks much, the way you folks talk
about 'em.
Remember, Mr. Zardoz, this is Scouting thread. Not a "alt.religion
thread" They's a whole bunch places out yonder on this here world world
web whut you kin say the nastiest thangs you want 'bout ever' body you
hate. Even us Ozarkers and the Baptists too.
I gotta tell ya, I'm gettin' a little tired o' bein' tolerant when you
are out here flaming folks fer doin' their level best to believe whut
it is they believe. Now I knowed theys jest Baptists, But Goolllly!
Even Baptists have a right to believe whut it is they want. Even
Baptists have a right under the US of A Constitution to associate with
those folks they wanna. Don't they Mr. Zardoz?
By the way, Mr Zardoz, I ain't seen no Baptists flamin' the Wicca
church on this here newsgroup at all! Why don' you jest leave them
alone.
Fact is I dun more myself to try and let people know 'bout the Wiccan
Church than anybody here, 'cludin' you! Least I posted a whole bunch
stuff tellin' folks where to go to lern 'bout it. You ain't dun nothin
' but flame my ol' buddy George & his church!
>
> I have file drawrers full of correspondence with BSA and official
> rejections, appeals, etc. Until they change (the current leaders
> probably have to die first) they are unlikely to accept the Asatru
> churches as troop sponsors. Sad, but that is the kind of religious
> biggorty they practice. There are always the equivalent biggots on this
> echo too - seem that they are everywhere that Scouters gather.
>
> Your friend
>
> ZardoZ
>
> P.S. Odin was my first introduction to the Old Gods. Blessed Be!
Well Glory be! Odin. Been a while since I thought o' him. He's wuz king
o' the Norse gods an' all. He lived in a place called Valhalla. I thank
he wuz Thor's daddy. That German feller Wagner rote a bunch good music
'bout them gods. Onliest one I kin remember was "The Cry of Valkyries".
(The Valkyries wuz women whut wuz warriors too. They wuz led by a big
ol' woman named Brunhild. She had a big ol' ax an' lots o' other
stuff.) That wuz really good music!
I 'member back when I wuz a little kid. My daddy took me to the movies
ta see "The Vikings". You know, with Kirk Douglas and Tony Curtis an' a
bunch o' other folks. They was brothers but they din't know wuz. There
was a scarey part in that movie where this ol' Hag was a prayin' and
hollerin' ta Odin ta help them boy's in the big fight whut was comin'
up. That Odin must be purty powerful cuz they won that fight. ('Cept in
the end Tony Curtis had to kill his brother Kirk Douglas.) It wuz a
purty good movie. I always thought that Odin feller was purty cool fer
helpin' them boys win that big fight an' givin' em a compass so's ol'
Tony Curtis wouldn't git lost in the fog an' stuff.
Nuf o' that.
Good Scoutin to ya Zardoz,
Roger
PS. If that stuff you said up there 'bout the BSA is true, I wouldn't
blame ya one bit if ya were ta pack yer tent in disgust and simply hike
on outta here. I would if I were you!
Jim Bowery
: In <jaboweryD...@netcom.com> jabo...@netcom.com (Jim Bowery)
: writes:
: >
: >You will, of course, allow gays in your kindred and then allow them to
: be
: >Scout Masters, right?
: If you're anti-feminist, then why aren't _you_ a man's man?
Feminism wishes to divorce sex from gender, and is therefore the natural
mate of the men's gay movement.
Valkyrie
: Origonal statement of problem snipped.
: Tom Granvold (gran...@futhark.Eng.Sun.COM) writes:
: >
: > As things are currently, they only possibilibty is to charter both
: > a Boy Scout and Girl Scout troop. Actually several troops and a pack to
: > cover all age groups. As far as changing either groups policy to allow
: > both sexes in, maybe this will happen, maby it won't. Do members of
: > Asatru believe that there should be no single sex organizations?
: > Is sounds like we need someone who is a Kindrad of Asatru to state
: > what they think.
I think that it would be reasonable to have an organization that has
activies for both boys and girls, as well as some activities for each
sex.
: Actually, you may want a Godhi or Gydja to comment about single sex
: organizations. However; the fact that there are two halls (Odin's hall -
: Valhalla and Freya's Hall Sessrymnir) seems to point one in the direction
: of two seperate but equal youth organizations. Of course there is
: supporting evidence for allowing Loki to try and twist both the Boy Scouts
: and Girl Scouts into one organization. Freya is the Goddesses of love for
: pleasure, not the Goddesses of Love for procreation (fertility). The
: Goddesses of Fertility is Thorr's wife Sif. (btw Sif and Freya are two of
: the Three Goddesses that Loki offended. The other Goddesses that Loki
: Offended is Idunn who is the keeper of the apples of youth and represents
: the spring bride.)
If you are going to open a scout group in a kindred, and there are
several looking into the possibilty, then you have to agree to go along
with the rules of the organization. Religions other than Christian are
recognized, and it seems to me that there are pagan groups, but they have
to meet the chartering requirements.
Women were honored in elder times, and there are a number of references
to trips to visit a temple with goddesses being worshiped there and asked
for blessings. There were two "halls" one for the gods and one for the
goddesses mentioned in the Edda.
In the old manor halls the "disarsalr" was the lady's hall, where the
spinning and much of the work of the household was carried out. Children
were taught there until they became adolescents.
Ves Heil,
Valkyrie
========================================================================
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Steven Malcolm Anderson
L. Behunin) writes:
>
>
>Hello folks,
>
>This is only at present a theoretical problem. This could become a
>real problem at some point in time.
>
>The knowledgeable folks on alt.asatru - please if I don't have
>everything quite right post a correction.
>
>If an Asatru Kindred wanted to set up a youth program what would you
>recommend?
>
>on what an Asatru Kindred is -
>
>An Asatru Kindred is part of a religion that worships the Northern
>Gods and Goddesses. ^^^^^^^^ ^^^^^^^^
> philosophy follows
>
>
>Not sure how to explain it better, you might think of it more in term
>of philosophy then religion. The Gods and Goddesses really might be
>thought of as more like elder kin.
Interesting thoughts.
>Yes, Asatru is polytheist.
Absolutely.
>Okay, part of the problem comes from the concepts outlined in the
>Eddas and Sagas.
>
>Both men and women are allowed to go into battle. Half of the battle
>fallen go to Valhalla (Odin's hall) and half the battle fallen go to
>Freya's Hall. Odin is the God of knowledge and the warrior's god.
>Freya is the Goddesses of love and war.
>
>Okay, this also seems to make Freya the Goddesses of Equality between
>the sexes.
Absolutely.
>The Boy Scouts of America does not allow girls in. I have my own
>solution set to this problem, but I do not know enough about the Girl
>Scouts.
>
>I can think of at least three possible solutions to the problem. Two
>of which might be something the trickster Loki might like...
>
>1. Convince the Boy Scouts of America to allow girls in Boy Scout
>Troops, at least as far as Asatru Kindreds are concerned.
>
>2. Convince the Girl Scouts to allow boys in Girl Scout Troops, at
>least as far as Asatru Kindreds are concerned.
>
>3. When an Asatru Kindred sees the need for a youth program, have
>them sponsor both a Boy Scout Troop and a Girl Scout Troop.
>
>So, folks what is the answer to this question?
The only improvement I can make to your good suggestions would be to,
additionally, set up a Bow Wow Scouts for those so inclined. Hee! Hee!
>roland
>--
>Happy Trails to you. (Nordic, Alpine, bicycle (road/offroad), and
hiking.)
>I am in Utah, U.S.A, not Canada.
>Standard disclaimers apply.
>Phone: 801 451-0931, Fax: 801 451-6834, email:
ag...@freeenet.carleton.ca
--
Settummanque
Roger D Carroll wrote a really humorous answer (or mebbe that's
the way he hollars at folk! *hehehehee*) but he did bring up a
couple of points that I wanted to key in on:
First, the BSA is NOT going to charter units specifically for a
religious group wanting to CHANGE their program. ADAPT, yes, as
the LDS, the Reorganized LDS, and the AME churches all have used
the Scouting program as their youth program. Fine. Your church
can do the same. But you have to use it within the guidelines that
the BSA has already established, or work within the BSA (like many
of us, including me are doing) to convince those in our Councils
(the ones whom vote in our national officers) that change is
needed. This is how the LDS and the AME churches got their
changes...they didn't just wave a bunch of dollars in the faces of
the BSA's leadership and demanded the changes...they influnced the
program from the INSIDE.
Second, the BSA isn't going to recognize any "non-mainline"
religious organizations. A good sign as to whether or not the BSA
or a local Council is going to recognize a church body could be
found here on this (and alt.scouting) list. If there's not a whole
lot of people out there that know of, recognize and "accept"
members of that church or religious order into their daily lives,
there's a GREAT chance that the BSA won't either.
It's a fact of life, that's all.
Finally, with regards to perhaps getting the GSUSA to change their
program, good luck buckos. The GSUSA has been so steadyfast in
their programs and program options that there's very little change
in their overall program compared to the BSA's program changes
since their organization was started. Yeah, yeah, they changed one
badge here or two tunics there...but the basic premise of the
program is still there; compared to the BSA's new "Learning for
Life" program, the Exploring program and the program options there,
the Venture/Varsity/Venture programs, the Tiger Cub program, the...
you get the idea.
I wish you a lot of luck, however, when a well-known "church body"
like the Church of Scientology can't get chartered-partner status,
you KNOW that the chances that Kindreds won't either. There are
SOME church bodies that are taking the BSA to task and going
through the process of "being recognized", but again, while I do
wish them well, the BSA is still composed of mainline religion
greying old men, and those men have been there long enough to know
what they are going to accept and what they won't.
Until more volunteer Scouters realize that they hold the key to
change, and start asking for and demanding change at the local
Council level, that's the way it's going to be.
By chance, have you *asked* your local Council Scout Executive if
the Council can charter a unit...instead of going national?
Settummanque!
(MAJ) Mike L. Walton (Settummanque, the blackeagle) (
Internet Operations Center Coordinator, CLR Technologies Inc . __)_
174 Chapelwood Drive, Henderson, Kentucky 42420-5036 | ** |]
(H) 502.827.9201 (F) 502.826.7046 (W) 800,467.4257 coffee? anytime!
also via Blackeagle Services 502.826.7046 or 800.816.6746 /Blke...@AOL.COM
(Email) mwa...@alpha.comsource.net/kyblk...@AOL.COM/mikew...@GNN.COM
"Ask about Geoworks, Leaders' Online & visiting *your* place to talk Scouting!!!
John Lindner
Carroll) wrote:
> >
> > I have file drawrers full of correspondence with BSA and official
> > rejections, appeals, etc. Until they change (the current leaders
> > probably have to die first) they are unlikely to accept the Asatru
> > churches as troop sponsors. Sad, but that is the kind of religious
> > biggorty they practice. There are always the equivalent biggots on this
> > echo too - seem that they are everywhere that Scouters gather.
> >
> > Your friend
> >
> > ZardoZ
> >
> > P.S. Odin was my first introduction to the Old Gods. Blessed Be!
> PS. If that stuff you said up there 'bout the BSA is true, I wouldn't
> blame ya one bit if ya were ta pack yer tent in disgust and simply hike
> on outta here. I would if I were you!
Roger misses the point.
Zardoz is pointing out (as he has numerous times in the past) that BSA is
painfully inconsisent when it comes to which religions it will and will
not charter.
Zardoz has apparently (not having seen his documentation personally) made
a good faith effort to respond to BSA's stated requirements for having
either a Wiccan-sponsored religious award or a Wiccan-chartered troop.
In both cases, BSA has given him the run-around, changed or come up with
new interpretations _of_ the rules, and basically made it clear that he's
not welcome _as_ as an open Wiccan.
BSA once again is not judging Zardoz as a person, but for his religious
background.
Zardoz doesn't want to "pack his tent" in disgust, because he see the real
of potential of Scouting --- if it would simply live up the values
expressed in the Oath and Law, and not pander to ignorance, bigotry and
bias.
Take care,
John Lindner
Eagle Scout '80
--
John Lindner
jo...@garlic.com
http://www.garlic.com/~johng/gateway.html
|Never be bullied into silence. Never allow |
|yourself to be made a victim. Accept no one's |____
|definition of your life, but define yourself. |\ /
| HARVEY FIERSTEIN - Bennington 1992 Commencement| \/
Roger D Carroll
In article <48299h$p...@news-e1a.megaweb.com>
Settummanque, the blackeagle (Mike Walton) <mikew...@gnn.com> writes:
> Settummanque!
Hey! It wuz good ta hear from ya. I ain't seen you 'round here since
September er so.
I guess you found a ol' compass from Odin er somethin'.
Ya know, you 'n me disagreed 'bout a bunch a stuff back then, but you
shore did tell that Kindred feller right. If ya wanna be in the BSA, ya
play by the rules whut the BSA says. It ain't hard ta unnerstand.
Imagine playin' football an' complainin' 'bout the rule whut says they
kin jump on each other an' ever'thin. Be kinda different game huh?
Why I don' thank nobody'd watch it er nothin'.
Good Scoutin' to you Mr. Settummanque,
Roger
zar...@cog.org
>
>In article <48299h$p...@news-e1a.megaweb.com>
>Settummanque, the blackeagle (Mike Walton) <mikew...@gnn.com> writes:
>
>> Settummanque!
>
You said:
>Ya know, you 'n me disagreed 'bout a bunch a stuff back then, but you
>shore did tell that Kindred feller right. If ya wanna be in the BSA, ya
>play by the rules whut the BSA says. It ain't hard ta unnerstand.
>
>Imagine playin' football an' complainin' 'bout the rule whut says they
>kin jump on each other an' ever'thin. Be kinda different game huh?
>
If BSA would play by their own rules they would have far fewer
complaints. What troubles many is that they publish rules, and then
violate them, and then lie about what they have done.
Imagine playin' football when the referee belongs to the other team, and
changes the rules every time your side gets an advantage by playing fair
by the published rules. It *IS* kinda different game, but that's how BSA
plays.
Honesty, integrety, the Scout Oath and Scout Law. If BSA would follow
them it would be a far different game.
Blessed Be!
ZardoZ
Sean Cox
>
> [snip] It's mind boggling to see how deranged
> some people's thinking is.
>
>
> Instead of reacting with vitality and outrage to these destructive
> people, [snip]
[snip]
> you too will be convinced to hate scouts enough that you will join the
> destructive forces.
>
>[snip] Your rights
> and freedoms are being threatened
>
[snip]
> Unfortunately the scout haters...[snip]
> "market" by reducing rights and freedom of choice.[snip]
[snip]
> Handling these scout/freedom haters with kid gloves only conveniences
[snip]
> and scouting values. Be warned, whiny-scout-hating-jerks, you will be
> "tolerated" no more!
[snip]
> scouting. Perhaps you were an Eagle Scout in 1980, but now in 1995 you
> are a pigeon scout.
Cody,
I'm not sure if I have ever seen so much "hate" in one post. That combined
with the fear of losing freedoms is quite convincing! some questions though,
are you an Eagle Scout? Are you even a member of the BSA or have you ever
been? You speak so authoritatively about whether someone else is an
Eagle or a pigeon, I was just wondering your experience?
> You signed your message "Eagle Scout"...are you PROUD of of that? Did you
> have GREAT leaders? Did you RESPECT them? Do you BELIEVE in scouting? Is
> Scouting GOOD?.
I would guess that he is quite proud of that (most people wouldn't put
something in their sig. that they weren't proud of!) I would also guess
that the answer to the rest of the questions is "yes"...I know they are
for me. Your assumption that IF we criticise the BSA THEN we hate it,
is not valid. In fact, it is for many of us that very LOVE for Scouting
that makes us want to see it improve, that makes us strive for change.
Have you ever heard of *ad vericundium*? It is (latin)a logic fallicy
of believing, "we have always done it this way, so we should continue
to do it this way."
C ya,
Sean
zar...@cog.org
>However Zardoz way of expressing himself disqualifies him in my eyes
>from chartering a unit. I guess I would evaluate acts and words, not
>the merit of his religion. If I would distrust an individual I would
>prevent him from chartering an unit independent of his religion.
>
Personal insults and ad-hominem attacks are the last resort of those who
have no logical reasons for their prejudices. The BSA and some of its
members need to re-think their intolerance of their neighbors, and you
fall right into the group.
Whatever happened to "Helpful, Friendly, Curteous, and Kind"? You don't
find much around here lately, especially from those who delight in
promoting intolerance of others. Aahh, if they (and BSA) would only
learn the Scout Law, we would end all this nonesense.
Blessings
ZardoZ
Bruce Hietbrink
> Cody,
>
are you an Eagle Scout? Are you even a member of the BSA or have you ever
> been?
Sean,
Cody is Canadian, so the above questions aren't very probative.
YIS
Bruce Hietbrink
Christian Jacobi
>painfully inconsisent when it comes to which religions it will and will
>not charter.
BSA may or may not be inconsisent. However I think BSA made the right
decision of not letting him charter an unit. I really don't know
anything about his religion. I would willing to see a religion from its
own viewpoint and on its own merits. Just because they are using the
words which are considered very bad in my religion doesn't necessarily
mean that the words have the same meaning.
However Zardoz way of expressing himself disqualifies him in my eyes
from chartering a unit. I guess I would evaluate acts and words, not
the merit of his religion. If I would distrust an individual I would
prevent him from chartering an unit independent of his religion.
And a final thought: Maybe the religion and not the individual has been
evaluated and rejected for chartering units, I don't know. But even if
that would be the case it would be a statement about chartering units
only and should not be extrapolated as if children of that religion
should be rejected.
Chris
Krieger S.M.
re:
>>However Zardoz way of expressing himself disqualifies him in my eyes
>>from chartering a unit. I guess I would evaluate acts and words, not
>>the merit of his religion. If I would distrust an individual I would
>>prevent him from chartering an unit independent of his religion.
>Personal insults and ad-hominem attacks are the last resort of those who
>have no logical reasons for their prejudices. The BSA and some of its
>members need to re-think their intolerance of their neighbors, and you
>fall right into the group.
>
>Whatever happened to "Helpful, Friendly, Curteous, and Kind"? You don't
>find much around here lately, especially from those who delight in
>promoting intolerance of others. Aahh, if they (and BSA) would only
>learn the Scout Law, we would end all this nonesense.
After reading posting after posting from you in which you do nothing
more than engage in namecalling of BSA without providing much useful
information, I have just one question-
Have any of the boys you claim to represent actually been
denied membership in a local BSA unit over the "expressing a
belief in God" expectation?
If the answer is "no", then you simply have no complaint against
BSA. From the little information that you provided in an earlier
posting, it sounded in fact that BSA had met you more than halfway
by allowing you, as responsible adults, to charter BSA units; therefore,
they gave you everything that you were entitled to; therefore, you
have ZERO gripe against BSA as it affects the boys.
Now, if your agenda is to gain recognition that you are a "religion",
then I will thank you very much to take your complaints through the
proper adult channels and not try to satisfy your egos or otherwise
force your way in by using your sons as pawns in your game. And if
you don't get 100% of what you want, be adult enough to recognize
that fact and just move on with what you do get. As long as your boys
aren't denied BSA membership, and more important, as long as you don't
do anything that jeopardizes their continued eligibility (like making
your religion an issue), you simply have no valid complaint. Just
stand in line with the rest of us who play by the rules and who simply
try to provide our sons with a good quality, character building, youth
program, instead of using them as pawns in some sort of political
statement.
--
All opinions, advice, or suggestions, even
Stanley M Krieger if related to my employment or company's
products, are my own.
BILL NELSON
>Personal insults and ad-hominem attacks are the last resort of those who
>have no logical reasons for their prejudices.
Where have I heard this phrase before??? Brad! its nice to have you
back!
-bill
--
Bill Nelson Webelos Den Leader, Pack 878 Assistant Scoutmaster,
Troop 14, Unit Commissioner, Tempe District, Grand Canyon Council
Phoenix, Arizona USA mailto:nel...@aztec.asu.edu
Member of U.S. Scouting Service Proj., http://www.hiwaay.net/usscout
Greg Allen
>I had GREAT ADMIRABLE leaders and a PERFECT troop. My experience in
>scouting as a boy and as a leader has been EXCELLENT. Bashing scouts is
>an attack on me, my good leaders, my troop, family, friends, experience,
>"tolerated" no more!
>>Zardoz doesn't want to "pack his tent" in disgust, because he see the real
>>of potential of Scouting --- if it would simply live up the values
>>expressed in the Oath and Law, and not pander to ignorance, bigotry and
>>bias.
>>John Lindner
>>Eagle Scout '80
>"Ignorance, bigotry and bias" add them to the list of favourite weapon words.
>You use despicable terms to speak of the organisation that made you an
>eagle scout, suggesting scouting is falling short of it's ideals to
>pander to ignorance, bigotry and bias. You show pure contempt for
>scouting. Perhaps you were an Eagle Scout in 1980, but now in 1995 you
>are a pigeon scout.
>Cody
>--
Is Congress America?
Is Bill Clinton America?
Is disagreeing with the policies established by the Congress and
implemented by the President un-American?
Hardly. The way a democratic society works is that if you don't like
the way something is being run, or what a partiular policy is, you try
to get it changed.
Just because others here want National to change its policies, does
not mean they hate scouting, or despise the great work scouting has
done in the world.
It is the RIGHT of any member of an organization or even non-members
of an organization to say exactly what they think of the policies of
that organization.
It is the RIGHT of any scout/scouter that he/she disagrees with
Nationals policy on "X" Expressing their opinion and asking that it
be accomodated doesn't make them any less a scout/scouter than someone
complaining about the President's Bosnia policy and asking that it be
changed is less of an American.
Greg Allen
10213...@compuserve.com
swan
this area.
swan
zar...@cog.org
>As long as your boys
>aren't denied BSA membership, and more important, as long as you don't
>do anything that jeopardizes their continued eligibility (like making
>your religion an issue), you simply have no valid complaint.
>Stanley M Krieger
As it happens Stan, all the troops in our town are sponsored by churches
of other religions, Catholics, LDS, Methodist, etc. While we can (and
do) allow our boys to join other troops, the concurrent religious
practices and teachings of the other church sponsors are often
inconsistent with our religious teachings and practices. For instance,
the boys in the Methodist sponsored troop, where several of our boys have
been menbers, are asked to help with their Christmas program. While that
is fine for Methodist (or even other Christian boys) it is outside of our
theology and practices. In order to be scouts, our boys either have to
participate in religous teachings of other religions, or to refuse and
thereby make themselves exceptions among the other boys. Either way its
not a good solution.
We don't complain that Christian churches sponsor troops. What we don't
like is the religious discrimination that says our boys can join their
troop (and learn their religious teachings), but we can't sponsor our own
troop, ethier here or in many towns and cities across the nation. We feel
that we do indeed have a valid complaint, and that complaining against
religious discrimination is always valid.
Blessings
ZardoZ
swan
topic. Please remove alt.religion.asatru from the posting list.
DAN NELSON
>John Lindner (jo...@garlic.com) wrote:
>: In article <48095f$d...@news1.inlink.com>, rdc...@inmax.co>
> I fear Americans are becoming more like Canadians every day. Your rights
>and freedoms are being threatened...and few people have enough life in
>themselves to muster up any kind of spirited reaction...welcome to Canada
>folks. ( and we thought that we were gonna end up as part of the great
>free USA one day!...looks like we all underestimated the toxic effects of
>socialism)
>
>Cody
>
Lets try and remember that Scouting is a WORLDWIDE brotherhood...there's no
need of slandering another People to make your point. How would you like it if
I said "Thank God My family left America after the Revolution!" We got out
while the getting was good"
Canadians are a different people and they are going to respond differently and
if they see socialism as part of that then accept it. It not your concern.
I'm glad we have a social safety net and free medical care. Is it right that
people should go bankrupt for being sick?
Dan Nelson
1st Wooler Rover Crew
Canadian Studies Major
Trent University,
Peterborough, Ontario, Canada
>--
>
Krieger S.M.
>s...@summit.novell.com (Krieger S.M.) wrote:
>>As long as your boys
>>aren't denied BSA membership, and more important, as long as you don't
>>do anything that jeopardizes their continued eligibility (like making
>>your religion an issue), you simply have no valid complaint.
>As it happens Stan, all the troops in our town are sponsored by churches
>of other religions, Catholics, LDS, Methodist, etc. While we can (and
>do) allow our boys to join other troops, the concurrent religious
>practices and teachings of the other church sponsors are often
>inconsistent with our religious teachings and practices....
>
>We don't complain that Christian churches sponsor troops. What we don't
>like is the religious discrimination that says our boys can join their
>troop (and learn their religious teachings), but we can't sponsor our own
>troop, ethier here or in many towns and cities across the nation. We feel
>that we do indeed have a valid complaint, and that complaining against
>religious discrimination is always valid.
Let's get this back on focus. According to earlier postings, you WERE
allowed to sponsor Scout units; the only concession required was that due
to legitimate questions about whether you are really a religion or just
some far out cult, the sponsorship needed to be secular. The bottom
line is still-
1. Your boys aren't denied membership in BSA.
2. The opportunity existed for you to sponsor units for them in which
some other religion's practices or teachings didn't work itself
into the program, and you chose not to avail yourself of that
opportunity.
The bottom line is that you got what you were entitled to, therefore there
is no problem unless you choose to make a mountain out of a mole hill, which
you seem to be doing.
Your earlier postings and this one convince me that your real agenda is
to gain recognition for this religion of yours rather than what's in the
best interest of your sons. Sorry "Zardoz", but what you're doing isn't
Scouting, and you know it.
J. DeLoach
writes:
This thread is OFF TOPIC to alt.religion.Asatru. Please refrain from
re-posting it in this area. Thank You.
zar...@cog.org
>Let's get this back on focus.
Good idea Stan, lets.
>According to earlier postings, you WERE
>allowed to sponsor Scout units; the only concession required was that due
>to legitimate questions about whether you are really a religion
That's partly true. If we formed a new parents committee or some "fake"
organization we could be sponsors of a unit. But, how honest is that?
The bottom line is religious discriminatin at BSA - at the insistance of
other religious organizations that already sponsor many units. Its a
classic case of, "Our beliefs are religion - your beliefs are a cult."
And, so what. If BSA were honest and followed their own rules, every
small "cult" religion would be equal, not just the religions that they
approved.
> 1. Your boys aren't denied membership in BSA.
>
> 2. The opportunity existed for you to sponsor units for them in which
> some other religion's practices or teachings didn't work itself
> into the program, and you chose not to avail yourself of that
> opportunity.
As many know (perhaps you don't) its much more difficult to start and
maintain a "fake" organization parallel to an existing organization than
to simply use the existing organization. Precluding some churches from
sponsoring units while allowing other churches is plainly discriminatory.
>Your earlier postings and this one convince me that your real agenda is
>to gain recognition for this religion of yours rather than what's in the
>best interest of your sons. Sorry "Zardoz", but what you're doing
>isn't Scouting, and you know it.
We really got started in this because our boys who are Scouts, and our
adults who are Scouters are not able to earn religious awards equivalent
to boys in other religions. Our boys (and adult leaders) often feel
discriminated against or just left out when they go to a Court of Honor
(or District Awards Banquet) where others are wearing their fancy ribons
and religious medals. For 12 year old boys, not being able to earn
equivalent awards is sometimes a big deal - especially when the other
boys are proud of their acheivements and medals. We wanted our boys to
feel equal to other boys in the Scouting program, and have opportunity to
earn the same kinds of awards to wear on their Scout Uniforms. After much
procrastination, BSA adopted a new rule and said we must sponsor 25 units
for our boys to have equal opportunity to earn a religious award, or to
be authorized to wear it on their Scouting Uniform.
Furthermore, like many, or perhaps most sponsors of Scouting units, we do
indeed want to use the Scouting program as our churches' youth programs.
The Scouting program is as we all know an excellent program for youth,
and fun for leaders. The Scout Law and Scout Oath, as we understand them,
are not inconsistent with our beliefs (Although even on rec.scouting
there is disagreement in interpretation.) While there are some other
churches that have developed their own equivalent programs because they
disagree with the ethics or principals of Scouting, we don't have any
such objections, and don't want to have to create our own whole program
when a really good one (Scouting) already exists.
While groups of concerned parents (including us) can always be formed to
sponsor units, that is not the same as using the Scouting program for a
church youth program as do many other curches of other religions. The
official program guide for Explorers even suggests using the Scouting /
Exploring program as part of teaching the religion of the sponsors. Its
a good idea, its a good program, its available to other religions. Its
discriminatory prejudice to allow some religions and not others. It also
is not what BSA says publicly that they do, and therefore is dishonest.
Your accusation of gaining recognition is really unfounded. It is
difficult to imagine asking to sponsor 25 or more scouting units, and
having hundreds of adult leaders spending years working on youth programs
just to gain some recognition which we hardly need anyway. Our biggest
internal challenge is to convince our people to overlook the dismal
reputation of BSA as a prejudicial, biggoted, discriminatory organizton,
and to focus on the benefits of the Scouting program. Many of our people
consider association with BSA to be a negative factor, that they have to
be willing to overlook to use the program. Your accusation of "gaining
recognition" is self agrandizement.
So the bottom line for us is:
1. Our boys who are currently Scouts, are denied equal opportunity to
participate in religious awards like other Scouts, and can not
participate in a Scouting youth program of their own church as do boys of
other churches.
2. While some of our adults can and do participate in Scouting as
leaders of units sponsored by others, and we could form "fake" parents'
committees to sponsor units, our member churches are denied access to
Scouting as our church youth programs - equivalent to that of so many
other churches.
3. Association with an organization such as BSA which has a
dismal negative reputation for institutional biggotry and discrimination
can be overlooked to use the Scouting program for our youth since it is a
fundamentally good worldwide program, and they have a monopoly in the US.
Like some said here earlier, we do not complain about Scouting as a
program, but the current management af BSA gives it a bad taste. We
criticize publically because it needs cleaning up - to make it better.
We don't feel that it harms a national public organization to have
constructive criticism, nor to have people asking it to live by its own
rules and published standards. World Scouting is an excellent youth
program. We just would like BSA to live up to its potential. BSA gives
Scouting a bad name in the US, but it doesn't have to be that way.
When BSA returns to the principals of its founders, the wisdom of
Baden Powel, and ends religious discrimination and biggotry then it will
again be worthy of support. For now it's dishonest, biggoted, and
unworthy. Do I make myself clear?
Neil Savage
<zar...@cog.org> writes...
>
>When BSA returns to the principals of its founders, the wisdom of
>Baden Powel, and ends religious discrimination and biggotry then it will
>again be worthy of support. For now it's dishonest, biggoted, and
>unworthy. Do I make myself clear?
>
My understanding is that your experience with GSUSA hasn't been
much better. True?
Scouting in the USA is very much a reflection of the worldviews of its
collective membership. There is wide-spread misunderstanding in the USA
about Wicca. Western mainstream cultures have a long history of
degrading the practice of witchcraft - associating it with ugliness
and depravity. No doubt, this is the work of scheming church clergymen
- to turn their parishoners away from a 'rival' religion.
That some (uniformed) people still see Wicca as some kind of vague threat
to their children is borne out by certain comments in this newsgroup.
So, isn't this prejudice something for society at large to resolve, not just
the USA Scouts?
This is just my perspective on the subject.
BTW: One of my son's friends recently joined the Covenant of the Goddess
(COG). For him it was a positive development, as he has difficulty
"fitting in" conventionally. This is NOT a cult in the sense of
hari krisna or 'moonies'. COG did not recruit him, he had to send
away asking for membership. Nobody has come to his door; the
literature he got was delivered by mail. I don't know what people
would expect to happen but it's all been low key: he hasn't even
been invited to participate a Coven (but he has instructions
for doing ritual practices on his own and that satified him completely).
What are people afraid of? The unknown? It must be about time to dust off
the story of the Black Door.
- neil
BILL NELSON
In a previous article, b...@nyc.pipeline.com (Bruce E. Cobern) says:
>Now, we can get back to the question of whether or not the BSA has the
>right to so discriminate and it does. That does not mean it is the right
>thing to do. Knowing nothing about Wicca myself I can offer no opinion on
>the decision itself. However, it certainly was discriminatory. Which
>brings us back to Sean's point of so long ago.
>
>While the BSA has the RIGHT to discriminate, when it chooses to do so it is
>HYPOCRITICAL for them to make contrary statements to the effect that they
>DO NOT discriminate. That, by the way, was Sean's ONLY point early on in
>his dialog (if you can call it that) with Cody Armstrong and Roger Carroll.
>
>If the organization feels it necessary to take a certain position because
>it feels it is the correct position it ought to have the courage to own up
>to the true nature of that decision.
I don'’t think the BSA has ever stated that they never discriminate as far as
chartering organizations go. In fact the BSA has certain guidelines for
reviewing a prospective chartering organization. And, IMHO,
this is as it should be. I don’t think too many of us
would advocate a Satanic religion chartering a troop,
a neo-Nazi organization or a dangerous cult sponsoring a troop.
The question here is where do you draw the line. IMHO, it would be very
difficult (if not impossible) to try to write down a requirements
list (similar to merit badge requirements) to define what type of
organization should sponsor a troop. And then simply check
off the requirements, (better yet, develop a computer program to do it)
and if met, allow the organization to charter. There are so many
variables, and dependencies that people need to
review the request, and using their best judgment make the call.
OK, so we get people into the picture. Now we have problems. People
are not perfect. People tend to make judgments based on more than just
‘the facts’. But that is human nature.
Wiccans (covens of witches) are not allowed to charter units in the BSA.
Why? Because people made a judgment call based on any number of reasons.
Please note: WE, IN THIS GROUP, DON’T REALLY KNOW WHY. Unfortunatey
this hurts Zardoz, and others who are Wiccans and are Scouts. Often when
someone says ‘no’ it hurts. Wiccans can, and do, join units chartered by
other organizations within the BSA and are full members of the BSA.
But I digress.
Does all this make the BSA a terrible organization? No. It makes the BSA
a discerning organization. And again, the BSA openly states it has
guidelines for determining if it should issue a charter to an organization.
I am not sure where the idea came from that the BSA just hands out
charters to anyone who asks for one. I don’t think parents would
entrust their children to us if we did.
-bill
--
Bill Nelson Webelos Den Leader, Pack 878 Assistant Scoutmaster,
Troop 14, Unit Commissioner, Tempe District, Grand Canyon Council
Phoenix, Arizona USA mailto:nel...@aztec.asu.edu
Member of U.S. Scouting Service Proj., http://www.hiwaay.net/usscouts
Bruce E. Cobern
Scouting>, 's...@summit.novell.com (Krieger S.M.)' wrote:
>Let's get this back on focus. According to earlier postings, you WERE
allowed
>to sponsor Scout units; the only concession required was that due to
legitimate
cult,
>the sponsorship needed to be secular.
Let's change the facts around a little bit. Suppose, for example, your
Conservative Temple was told that you could not sponsor a troop unless you
called yourself a Bar-B-Que club because national did not believe that
Conservative Judaism was not a religion under their standards? (Something
which my memory tells me you might feel about Reform or Reconstructionist
Judaism, if I recall correctly.) My guess is that you would be screaming
discrimination as loudly as ZardoZ is now, and rightly so. That is because
there is no reason that a group should have to disguise who or what it is
in order to meet some "test." Obviously the national office (or really
the local council) was satisfied with the moral character of the
individuals who would be sponsoring the unit so that was not a problem.
Obviously the only problem was national's problem with Wicca as a sponsor,
not the individual Wiccans. That is blatant religious discrimination.
Now, we can get back to the question of whether or not the BSA has the
right to so discriminate and it does. That does not mean it is the right
thing to do. Knowing nothing about Wicca myself I can offer no opinion on
the decision itself. However, it certainly was discriminatory. Which
brings us back to Sean's point of so long ago.
While the BSA has the RIGHT to discriminate, when it chooses to do so it is
HYPOCRITICAL for them to make contrary statements to the effect that they
DO NOT discriminate. That, by the way, was Sean's ONLY point early on in
his dialog (if you can call it that) with Cody Armstrong and Roger Carroll.
If the organization feels it necessary to take a certain position because
it feels it is the correct position it ought to have the courage to own up
to the true nature of that decision.
--
Bruce E. Cobern
Bruce E. Cobern
the
>legitimacy of the Reform and Reconstructionist Movements; I would not
deny
>one's being a Jew because of a conversion or patrilineal descent issue not
>recognized by the Orthodox or mainstream Conservatives.
>
>Now, using the example you gave, instead of bellyaching, Zardoz should be
>thankful for what he got. At least he was given the opportunity to
charter BSA
>units, which using a direct comparison, is more than the religious rights
given
>to the Reform and Masorti (Conservative) Movements in Israel in such areas
as
>conversions and marriages, and for just the Masorti, kashruth
certification.
Once again, Stan, you do everything but answer the question. The question
was: How would you react if your Conservative Temple were told that in
order to sponsor a unit you had to call yourselves a barbecue club? I am
fully aware of the lack of recognition given to some segments of Judaism in
Israel and I am also aware that they are not happy about and have done what
they can over time to change the status quo. This is done by publicizing
the discrimination and hoping that by making people aware of it pressure
will be brought to bear to change things.
I cannot believe that you just accept the intolerance of your faith by the
Israeli government as "the way it is" and don't wish that it would change
or wouldn't be doing something about if you lived there.
While some of his language got a little intemperate, what I see ZardoZ as
doing is attempting to make people aware of what he sees as an injustice so
that others might come to agree and bring pressure to bear to "right the
wrong."
When one is in the majority, or in a coalition that constitutes a majority,
it is very easy to justify the actions taken to exclude a minority.
Tolerance very much has to do with being able to put yourself in the other
person's shoes and then try to understand why he is reacting the way he is.
Coming from someone who is a member of what might be one of the most
persecuted groups in history I find your self-righteous mainstream attitude
especially disappointing.
--
Bruce E. Cobern
Krieger S.M.
>Stan Krieger wrote:
>
>>Let's get this back on focus. According to earlier postings, you WERE
>>allowed to sponsor Scout units; the only concession required was that
>>due to legitimate questions about whether you are really a religion or
>>just some far out cult, the sponsorship needed to be secular.
>Stan:
>
>Let's change the facts around a little bit. Suppose, for example, your
>Conservative Temple was told that you could not sponsor a troop unless you
>called yourself a Bar-B-Que club because national did not believe that
>Conservative Judaism was not a religion under their standards? (Something
>which my memory tells me you might feel about Reform or Reconstructionist
>Judaism, if I recall correctly.) My guess is that you would be screaming
>discrimination as loudly as ZardoZ is now, and rightly so. That is because
>there is no reason that a group should have to disguise who or what it is
>in order to meet some "test." Obviously the national office (or really
>the local council) was satisfied with the moral character of the
>individuals who would be sponsoring the unit so that was not a problem.
>Obviously the only problem was national's problem with Wicca as a sponsor,
>not the individual Wiccans. That is blatant religious discrimination.
First of all, although my affiliation is Conservative, I fully recognize
the legitimacy of the Reform and Reconstructionist Movements; I would
not deny one's being a Jew because of a conversion or patrilineal
descent issue not recognized by the Orthodox or mainstream Conservatives.
Now, using the example you gave, instead of bellyaching, Zardoz should
be thankful for what he got. At least he was given the opportunity to
charter BSA units, which using a direct comparison, is more than the
religious rights given to the Reform and Masorti (Conservative) Movements
in Israel in such areas as conversions and marriages, and for just the
Masorti, kashruth certification.
Again, using the example you gave, to the Orthodox there is a legitimate
issue as to whether what the Conservative, Reform, and Reconstructionists
observe, and teach our children, is Judaism from Sinai. But at least in
your example, an "out" was given, which in reality the Orthodox haven't
given the Conservative, etc., movements within Judaism (like a few
years ago, a Rabbi saying that hearing the shofar on Rosh Hashanah in
a non-Orthodox synagogue doesn't satisfy the commandment to hear the
shofar). On balance, it sure looks like the boys Zardoz is fighting
for came out winners.
It still comes down to the fact that the ONLY issue is whether the boys
can join BSA units, and the answer is YES; therefore, by definition,
Zardoz has no problem unless he chooses to create one, and if he does
continue to do so, the only losers will be the children. I strongly
suggest he seriously consider that possibility before throwing down
the gauntlet.
>Now, we can get back to the question of whether or not the BSA has the
>right to so discriminate and it does. That does not mean it is the right
>thing to do. Knowing nothing about Wicca myself I can offer no opinion on
>the decision itself. However, it certainly was discriminatory. Which
>brings us back to Sean's point of so long ago.
>
>While the BSA has the RIGHT to discriminate, when it chooses to do so it is
>HYPOCRITICAL for them to make contrary statements to the effect that they
>DO NOT discriminate. That, by the way, was Sean's ONLY point early on in
>his dialog (if you can call it that) with Cody Armstrong and Roger Carroll.
>
>
>If the organization feels it necessary to take a certain position because
>it feels it is the correct position it ought to have the courage to own up
>to the true nature of that decision.
A counterpoint is that this whole issue is unclear. As far as those of us
on rec.scouting trying to make an informed decision, all we've heard is
rhetoric and accusations. Obviously, there is a real issue as to whether
Zardoz' religion is really a religion or some way out cult, and regarding
BSA, it's not a decision that Zardoz owns, and he knows it.
zardoz
>A counterpoint is that this whole issue is unclear. As far as those of us
>on rec.scouting trying to make an informed decision, all we've heard is
>rhetoric and accusations. Obviously, there is a real issue as to whether
>Zardoz' religion is really a religion or some way out cult,
And this decision really comes down to "My religion is a religion, your
religion is a cult."
--
Blessed Be!
ZardoZ
The opinions expressed herein are mine alone, and do not reflect policy
or beliefs of any organization. If you disagree with my opinions, that
is not my problem.
Bruce E. Cobern
>offered a very reasonable and legitimate compromise.
It is only a reasonable and legitimate compromise if you are the one
handing out the crumbs, but I can easily see that it would be very
uncomfortable and probably unacceptable if you were part of the minority
being asked to accept the crumbs. Asking a church to pretend to be a club
is the same as saying to an atheist that he can be a leader as long as he
keeps his mouth shut and signs the application. Sure, he can do it, and in
the second case here, I am sure many do. However, that doesn't make it
right. Nor does it mean that he should keep his mouth shut and not make
others aware of what he perceives to be a flaw in the way an organization
that he obviously respects operates.
Again, I have no opinion on whether or not Wiccans SHOULD be allowed to
charter units because I do not know enough about Wicca. However I can
fully see how ZardoZ would feel about the rejection, especially if he was
asked to jump through the hoops he claims he was only to be turned down at
the end. I can also understand how he might feel that the BSA holds itself
out to be something he feels it is not on the question of religious
discrimination. And I can certainly understand why he wants to make the
rest of us aware of how he feels so that we might, if we choose, support
him in his efforts to effect change.
Somehow it seems to me that most Americans many years ago gave up the
notion that the slaves were ingrates for wanting their freedom when,
instead, they should be thanking their masters for having provided them
with food, clothing and shelter their whole lives. I think most people
would today consider that attitude patronizing. IMHO your attitude is
morally equivalent.
--
Bruce E. Cobern
Cody Armstrong
: bf...@torfree.net (Cody Armstrong) wrote:
: Cody,
That combined
: with the fear of losing freedoms is quite convincing!
You may need to loose your freedoms before you miss them.
some questions though,
: are you an Eagle Scout? Are you even a member of the BSA or have you ever
: been? You speak so authoritatively about whether someone else is an
: Eagle or a pigeon, I was just wondering your experience?
We have exchanged many emails, you know of my experience....why ask again?
: Have you ever heard of ...[snip]
If it ain't broke don't fix it.
Cody
--
Jaana A Antikainen
(answering to "Zardoz")
: The bottom line is that you got what you were entitled to, therefore there
: is no problem unless you choose to make a mountain out of a mole hill, which
: you seem to be doing.
How would you feel, Stanley, if BSA told you "Sure your synagogue can
sponsor a troop, but not as a synagogue. See, we don't really know much
about your religion, and some of the Christian boys' parents could get
upset. So, let's make it so that you form a parents' organization to be
the sponsor, and let's not speak of this 'Jewish religion' thing again."
: Your earlier postings and this one convince me that your real agenda is
: to gain recognition for this religion of yours rather than what's in the
: best interest of your sons. Sorry "Zardoz", but what you're doing isn't
: Scouting, and you know it.
If you want to tell other people if they are scout-like or not, I would
recommend that you start taking the "friendly, courteous, kind" parts of
your Law serious yourself.
--
Jaana Antikainen------------email: jant...@cc.helsinki.fi---
Iivisniemenkuja 4 F 70---------------------------------------
02260 Espoo----------------"My problem is that I have--------
FINLAND---------------------gone sane in an insane world."---
zardoz
>If you want to tell other people if they are scout-like or not, I would
>recommend that you start taking the "friendly, courteous, kind" parts of
>your Law serious yourself.
>
>--
>Jaana Antikainen------------email: jant...@cc.helsinki.fi---
Hail and well said Jaana - and it bears repeating.
zardoz
>In article <48lepc...@plasma.summit.novell.com>
>s...@summit.novell.com (Krieger S.M.) writes:
>
>> Now, if your agenda is to gain recognition that you are a "religion",
<snip>
>> do anything that jeopardizes their continued eligibility (like making
>> stand in line with the rest of us who play by the rules and who simply
>> try to provide our sons with a good quality, character building, youth
>> program, instead of using them as pawns in some sort of political
>> statement.
>
>Good Scoutin' to you Stanley!>
>Roger
Well Roger, that's my point exactly. Too bad you have such trouble
contradicting yourself. What I have said several times is that our goal
is to provide a good quality, character building, youth program for our
youth in the same manner that churches of other faiths do. Since BSA is
much more than a private club, and has a monopoly on its name etc., in
the US, not being able to sponsor Scouting units is a discriminatory
difficulty for us in our desire to provide a good quality, character
building, youth program. Is that so hard to undrstand?