WHO ARE THE NATIONAL COMMITTEE ???
Brad Kemp
National BSA Committee, and what organizations do they represent? Someone
on this board must be connected to BSA at a high enough level to have that
information.
I would like to find out how to contact them if possible? Phone numbers,
or mailing address, or both? Please post here or send to Brad
Ke...@aol.com
Used2bBear
I met several of the National Committee when I was at Philmont last
summer. I took the BSAdvancement training course, which was taught by 3
members of the National Advancement Committee. One was from Tennessee,
one was from Texas and I can't remember where the other one was from. The
info they told us in class, was that the National committees are largely
made up of volunteers. We all volunteered immediately! Anyway, you kind
of work your way up. District adv person, council person, regional
person, national person. To reach the national committee, just write to
the national office in Irving, Texas and on the outside of the envelope,
put Boy Scout Advancement Committee; Boy Scout Camping Committee,
etc.-whatever you are looking for. The committees pretty much follow what
you district does, i.e. advancement, training, camping, etc. I have
called Texas several times with advancement questions, and have always
been treated well. You can send suggestions, ideas, etc, and they really
will listen. Keep in mind that they have to make policies based on the
whole country. For example, Eagle projects. That they are somewhat vague
is intentional. Remember, if they get too specific, what may work well in
Chicago may not work at all in rural Montana, and vice versa. And what
may not work at all in western Colorado, might be perfect for the
inner-city neighborhoods of Detroit. If you want to know the specific
professional for a specific committee, just ask the nat'l office. They
will be glad to tell you. I have talked to TJ Van Houten several times.
He's the head of advancement. Just ask. It's not a secret.
Connie
Brad Kemp
(Used2bBear) writes:
>Hi, Brad.
>
>To reach the national committee, just write to
>the national office in Irving, Texas and on the outside of the envelope,
>put Boy Scout Advancement Committee; Boy Scout Camping Committee,
>etc.-whatever you are looking for.
Thanks for the response. I am looking for contact information to contact
the members of the committee that runs BSA, made up, apparently, of
representatives of chartered partner organizations. The one’s who are
meant when someone says how may LDS (for instance) representatives are on
the committee. Unfortunately, I have 4 years of correspondence with the
(helpful, friendly, courteous) folks in Irving telling me that the names
and mailing addresses of the members of the National Committee are
“confidential” as are their meeting times, places, and dates. They don’t
want the names and addresses to be given out. You figure out why. That’s
why I asked this forum. Lots of people who occupy cyberspace have a less
restrictive opinion of restricted data. I was hoping that someone who
knows the National Committee would be less into secrecy that Irving.
How about that you all, anyone know who are the National Committee?
Yours in Scouting
Brad Kemp
ASM, Troop 122, Los Alamos District, Great Southwest Council.
scox@pres.fsu.edu (Sean Cox)
As a past member of the National Executive Board, I have that info.
But before I send it out, perhaps you could tell me why you need it?
The actual body that has the final say is the National Council, which
is made up of two reps from each council (National Council Rep. and
the Council Pres.)
See ya 'round,
Sean
Christian Jacobi
> Unfortunately, I have 4 years of correspondence with the
> (helpful, friendly, courteous) folks in Irving telling me that the names
> and mailing addresses of the members of the National Committee are
> want the names and addresses to be given out. You figure out why.
Brad, I can understand this beeing frustrating. However, I believe
it makes perfect sense to treat the addresses confidential. These are
exposed positions and they do need protection from friendly advertisments
and unfriendly calls up to letter bombs. Any large corporation will
give you the names of the officers in charge, and a telephone number
of their secretary, but will never give out addresses. Now, outside
people usually deal with officers, but not board members, so giving
out such addresses is even less desirable.
There is a huge difference in giving out one address or all addresses.
There is also a huge difference to give out addresses on a need to know
basis or to the public.
I'm only a lowly cubmaster. While all the cub scouts in my pack have my address,
l would never allow it to be accessible to the public by putting it in a post,
or, on a www page. I also trust my council to not give it out, except to fellow
leaders in the same council or for good reasons.
On the other side, you should maybe try to talk to "your" representative
on the committee. Your council or your chartered organization should certainly
forward mail to him/her for you. (Maybe I should try out to find mine...)
Chris
Brad Kemp
>Subject: Re: WHO ARE THE NATIONAL COMMITTEE ???
>Date: 16 Dec 1994 20:08:01 GMT
>
>> Unfortunately, I have 4 years of correspondence with the
>> (helpful, friendly, courteous) folks in Irving telling me that the
names
>> and mailing addresses of the members of the National Committee are
>> want the names and addresses to be given out. You figure out why.
>Christiana replies:
>Brad, I can understand this being frustrating. However, I believe
>it makes perfect sense to treat the addresses confidential. These are
>exposed positions and they do need protection from friendly
advertisements
>and unfriendly calls up to letter bombs. Any large corporation will
>give you the names of the officers in charge, and a telephone number
>of their secretary, but will never give out addresses. Now, outside
>people usually deal with officers, but not board members, so giving
>out such addresses is even less desirable.
Brad replies:
This may take 2 files; AOL does not handle longer posts well. And,
sometimes they post the second one first, so please read both if that
happens. I’ll try to explain.
I understand about safety. If someone can send the information to my
e-mail address (Brad...@aol.com) instead of posting here I would keep
names and addresses from being spread widely.
I have been Webelos Den Leader, Scoutmaster, and now ASM in three Councils
over quite a few years. All this time has been with units sponsored by
other groups and other churches. For the past few years I have been
working on a committee of my own church to sponsor a Scouting unit, and
now on the national committee of my religion to adopt Scouting as our
youth program in a manner similar to other religions.
After more than four years of patient negotiations with BSA professionals,
we were finally flatly turned down in our application for our member
churches to sponsor scouting units for our youth. We were told that if we
called ourselves the “Saturday Barbecue Association” we could sponsor the
scouting units, but solely because of our religion, we were prohibited.
Many of our people are registered Scouters in other troops from NY to CA.
Our members are religious beliefs are more congruent with the practices of
Scouting than many other sponsor organizations (though our beliefs about
tolerance are more congruent with World Scouting than BSA). I have
personally led Sunday interfaith worship at the Philmont Training Center,
and this past spring a joint (between us and an LDS Bishop) Sunday
interfaith worship at the District Scoutmaster training where I was a
member of the training staff.
During the years of patient negotiation, our repeated requests to meet
with the committees making the decision, to present our application, and
to provide information regarding our religion and its tenants were flatly
turned down by Mr. Townsend, the Relationships Officer. Our phone calls
and letters met with what can only be categorized as “stone walling.”
Although they repeatedly said that such information is “confidential,”
they did provide information about us, our religion, and our application
to the national organization of the religion that sponsors the troop of
which our boys are currently members, and which we are currently
registered scouters. “Confidential” apparently only works one way.
After 4 years of delay and obfuscation, and making new rules and hoops for
us to jump, they just flatly said no, and included a vague accusation
regarding not meeting the Scout Law and Scout Oath. Still they refuse to
let us petition the committee directly, or to discuss our application with
anyone who makes these decision. They refuse to tell us even what
committee, or how these decisions are made.
We know that there are many members of BSA who still follow the teaching
of Baden Powell, that Scouting should be open to boys of ALL religions.
We know that one of the fundamental tenants of the LDS religion, for
instance, is that each person may see God in his own manner. The LDS
religion is another historically persecuted (though no where near as long)
religion. We would like to ask their member representatives if they can
support discrimination and persecution against other faiths? We would
like to know if there are Jewish representatives on the committee? We
would like to know if there are members of the committee who believe that
Scouting should be open to all faiths, and who they are. We would even
like to meet with the members of the committee who voted against us to ask
why?
At this point, we are not even convinced that the professionals in Irving,
TX referred the matter to the committee. Someone else recently suggested
that this guess probably has a lot of truth.
>Chris
>On the other side, you should maybe try to talk to "your" representative
>on the committee. Your council or your chartered organization should
certainly
>forward mail to him/her for you. (Maybe I should try out to find
mine...)
BSA states publicly that they require a belief in God, but do not require
a specific religion. What they don’t say publicly, is that they in
practice do require specific beliefs about God, and while our religion
meets all their stated tests, we are too close to the Native American
traditions (the ones honored by OA) for BSA to accept as a religious
practice among people of European descent. We have been flatly rejected
without opportunity to meet the appropriate committee and discuss their
position. The professionals in Irving insist that BSA is not a “secret”
organization, but they steadfastly refuse to disclose any information
about its organizational structure, or the people who are responsible.
For these reasons, despite many years of volunteer Scouting service, we
have no representatives of our own to talk to. We have been and are still
outside the loop. That is why I am asking the people here for help. We
need to find the Relationships Committee, the Charter Partner
representatives, and the members of the controlling National Committee.
Without having our own representatives, we don’t get information on who or
how these committees fit together or work, despite being involved in the
youth leadership half of BSA for many years.
I believe that there are many good people in BSA who really believe that
Scouting should be open to those of all religions. The comments from
Scouters of other countries on this board are encouraging. To them, BSA
must look really up-tight. I would like to find people who are willing to
break our far enough to share Scouting with those of other religions
besides their own. Are you willing to work toward changing the current
practice of religious discrimination, religious exclusivity at BSA?
Blessings to you all,
Brad Kemp
Robert Craig
where I am geographically located....but I do have some questions and comments
for you.
In article <3d2eb4$q...@newsbf01.news.aol.com> brad...@aol.com (Brad Kemp) writes:
>>
>>> Unfortunately, I have 4 years of correspondence with the
>>> (helpful, friendly, courteous) folks in Irving telling me that the
>names
>>> and mailing addresses of the members of the National Committee are
>>> confidential as are their meeting times, places, and dates. They don’t
>>> want the names and addresses to be given out. You figure out why.
>
>>Christiana replies:
>>Brad, I can understand this being frustrating. However, I believe
>>it makes perfect sense to treat the addresses confidential. These are
>>exposed positions and they do need protection from friendly
>advertisements
>>and unfriendly calls up to letter bombs. Any large corporation will
>>give you the names of the officers in charge, and a telephone number
>>of their secretary, but will never give out addresses. Now, outside
>>people usually deal with officers, but not board members, so giving
>>out such addresses is even less desirable.
>
>Brad replies:
>I understand about safety. If someone can send the information to my
>e-mail address (Brad...@aol.com) instead of posting here I would keep
>names and addresses from being spread widely.
No insult or offense intended here Brad, but who is to say that you
won't do what is suggested above. Not providing the "private" information
of committee members is out of respect for the committee members.
However, I can understand your frustration of this "lack" of communication.
>
>During the years of patient negotiation, our repeated requests to meet
>with the committees making the decision, to present our application, and
>to provide information regarding our religion and its tenants were flatly
>turned down by Mr. Townsend, the Relationships Officer. Our phone calls
>and letters met with what can only be categorized as “stone walling.”
>Although they repeatedly said that such information is “confidential,”
>they did provide information about us, our religion, and our application
>to the national organization of the religion that sponsors the troop of
>which our boys are currently members, and which we are currently
>registered scouters. “Confidential” apparently only works one way.
Brad, working as a Leader in a movement were allegations can really
harm a person, I must ask: Do you have proof that it was the BSA who
gave out this information? Could someone possibly have discovered this
and sent messages out to the people listed (ie a parent)?
>We would like to ask their member representatives if they can
>support discrimination and persecution against other faiths?
Persecution of other faiths?! Did they say this or imply they were
going to persecute you or your religion?
>We would even
>like to meet with the members of the committee who voted against us to ask
>why?
In the least, your religion is deserving of an explanation as to why you
were "voted against". However, confronting members of the committee might
not be as appropriate. I agree that they might be mis-informed, however,
these "concerns" I would assume could be aired out at the committee or
by questioning your religion.
>
>At this point, we are not even convinced that the professionals in Irving,
>TX referred the matter to the committee. Someone else recently suggested
>that this guess probably has a lot of truth.
>
Is making allegations going to help your appeal process? I would think that
negative comments and "mud-slinging" might result in further hostility.
>
>BSA states publicly that they require a belief in God, but do not require
>a specific religion. What they don’t say publicly, is that they in
>practice do require specific beliefs about God, and while our religion
>meets all their stated tests, we are too close to the Native American
>traditions (the ones honored by OA) for BSA to accept as a religious
>practice among people of European descent.
Is this the reason they gave you?
Finally Brad, I notice that throughout the document, you avoid giving the
name of the religion you are a member of. Is there a reason for this?
I find it strange that a person who is so strong for the acceptance of
their religion within the realms of Scouting and Society would fail to
even mention once the name of the religion they have fought so strongly
for.
What religion are you a member of?
>Blessings to you all,
>
>Brad Kemp
Bob Craig
BILL NELSON
Brad,
As far as I know, the BSA is still chartered by Congress.
Have you tried going through your elected congressional representatives?
It is funny what a phone call from a congressional aid does to ease the
communication process with bureaucracies.
Your religion sounds interesting, if you feel open enough to share some info
on it, please e-mail me.
YiS,
Bill
--
Bill Nelson, Webelos Den Leader
Eagles Den, Pack 878
Tempe District, Grand Canyon Council
Phoenix, Arizona USA email: nel...@aztec.asu.edu
James P Ganley
: Brad,
: As far as I know, the BSA is still chartered by Congress.
: Have you tried going through your elected congressional representatives?
: It is funny what a phone call from a congressional aid does to ease the
: communication process with bureaucracies.
As great an idea as this sounds, it doesn't seem to work very well. Two years
ago while helping to lobby against a forced council merger, I and a number of
other people in my council contacted our congressman for assistance, although
he gave us his full support, it didn't seem to do much good. (Of course we
only have his word that he ever did anything.)
As for the Irving Office being difficult...
During the same merger battle, our Council President, VP and treasurer flew to
Texas to meet with a national review committee who were supposedly going to
hear or case. The group was escorted into the building, made to wait some time
in a waiting room, escorted in for a brief meeting with the committee and then
escorted out. Needless to say, the attempt was unsuccessful.
Fortunately, the two councils are slowly working out their diferences, although
there remains a stubborn faction who are resisting the "new order."
My point is that the folks in Irvine seem to be continually demonstrating their
distance from the boys they ostensibly serve. Just my observations.
In Brotherhood.
Jim Ganley
Brad Kemp
>Subject: Re: WHO ARE THE NATIONAL COMMITTEE ???
>
>Hi Brad! Greetings from Canada! I probably won't be able to help you
from
>where I am geographically located....but I do have some questions and
comments
>for you.
>>During the years of patient negotiation, our repeated requests to meet
>>with the committees making the decision, to present our application, and
>>to provide information regarding our religion and its tenants were
flatly
>>turned down by Mr. Townsend, the Relationships Officer. Our phone calls
>>and letters met with what can only be categorized as *Stone Walling.*
>>Although they repeatedly said that such information is *confidential,*
>>they did provide information about us, our religion, and our application
>>to the national organization of the religion that sponsors the troop of
>>which our boys are currently members, and which we are currently
>>registered scouters. Confidential apparently only works one way.
>Brad, working as a Leader in a movement were allegations can really
>harm a person, I must ask: Do you have proof that it was the BSA who
>gave out this information? Could someone possibly have discovered this
>and sent messages out to the people listed (i.e. a parent)?
Actually we do. When we asked them Mr. Townsend, BSA Relationships
Officer, said they have no control over their Charter Partner
representatives, one of whom started trouble at the national organization
of the church that sponsors the troop where our boys are registered, and
where I was SM and am now ASM. They proceeded to invite us to an
intensive interrogation as to whether we were fit to be in their troop
(after being the SM for 3 years when no one from their church had time to
do the work). Mr. Townsend said it was the BSA committee member from that
religion, whom he would not name. You are certainly right, allegations
are harmful. I do wish the members of the BSA national committees would
refrain from spreading them.
>>We would like to ask their member representatives if they can
>>support discrimination and persecution against other faiths?
>Persecution of other faiths?! Did they say this or imply they were
>going to persecute you or your religion?
We are somewhat paranoiac. When you have been persecuted as often and as
long as we, its easy to be defensive, see above comment. When those
people with whom we have shared campfires with for several years can
suddenly need intensive interrogations after demands from their
headquarters, we have reason to be hesitant. After the interrogations and
discussions of our beliefs, the rest of the troop leadership told their
church that they would also resign from the troop as well if we were no
longer accepted. Those who understand our beliefs have no reason to ban
us from Scouting. The local troop sponsors who know us are good people.
But, we would really like to sponsor our own troops for our own boys.
Two years ago in NY, another SM of our faith also withstood a smear
campaign from members of some other religion. Yes, it happens in Scouting
all the time. A family in FL was forced to withdraw their boys from
Scouting altogether. Yes, religious persecution happens in BSA. Is that
any surprise after reading some of the items on rec.scouting?
>In the least, your religion is deserving of an explanation as to why you
>were "voted against". However, confronting members of the committee
might
>not be as appropriate. I agree that they might be misinformed, however,
>these "concerns" I would assume could be aired out at the committee or
>by questioning your religion.
I did not say that I wanted to confront members of the committee. We have
always asked to be able to discuss with the committee and to provide
information about our religion and practices. Our religion is surrounded
by a great deal of misinformation and misunderstanding. Most probably they
have only common misunderstandings to act upon. What we commonly hear is
some version of: *My religion says that your religion
believes...xxxxx.... so therefore it does.* While this is logical
nonsense it appears to be at least part of the basis for the BSA decision.
We know it was at least part of the basis for the persecution by the
sponsoring organization of the troop where I was SM. We do not understand,
with all the misinformation around, how they can make intelligent or fair
decisions without even talking to us first. We have repeatedly asked to
attend a meeting of the committees, but those requests have been
repeatedly denied by Irving. Would it be dangerous to the committee
members for our national Public Information Officer to attend a BSA
committee meeting in Washington DC? Hardly! Can they make intelligent
decisions without complete and accurate information? Hardly! Yet, Irving
prevents them from getting that information. We now would like to mail
information to the committee members and ask them for their permission to
attend.
>>BSA states publicly that they require a belief in God, but do not
require
>>a specific religion. What they do not say publicly, is that they in
>>practice do require specific beliefs about God, and while our religion
>>meets all their stated tests, we are too close to the Native American
>>traditions (the ones honored by OA) for BSA to accept as a religious
>>practice among people of European descent.
>Is this the reason they gave you?
No, they gave no reason. That is what they have done. Their actions speak
much louder than any words they might use. By their deeds are they known.
>Finally Brad, I notice that throughout the document, you avoid giving the
>name of the religion you are a member of. Is there a reason for this?
If Scouting is open to members of ALL religions, it really does not matter
what we call it. If you need the name in order to decide, you are acting
to discriminate against the members of any religion you do not
particularly like, or that doesn’t agree with your beliefs. Because of
the prevalence of misinformation and misunderstanding about our religion,
and the long history of persecution, we find that better understanding
results if we only get into names when we can include a long discussion
and more information than can be conveniently conveyed on one of these
posts. We will share information on what the names mean and the history,
practice, and so forth with any who are seriously interested. Suffice it
to say its one of the best known but least understood, and the most
persecuted religion in western culture. In essence, it is the European
relative of the Native American traditions that are so revered by BSA-OA.
Since we are Europeans, our practice is banned while their is honored. We
were specifically told that if we applied to sponsor a Scouting unit in
any name but that of our church, we would be acceptable immediately. Only
because of religious bigotry at BSA were we denied.
What we are really asking is that Scouting should be open to all people,
boys and leaders, who believe in God as each person sees God, who can live
by the Scout Law and Scout Oath, and who practice a benevolent moral code.
That is what BSA claims. We ask them only to act on their own
statements. If that is the policy it does not matter by what the name
each religion is called. If you need the name, you are discriminating
against some religions, and allowing only those religions that are
acceptable to your religious bias.
World Scouting allows many, many faiths. BSA picks and chooses, focusing
on some undefined criteria. Allowing boys (and their parents) of ALL
faiths is the historic teaching of the founder of Scouting. It is the
public policy of BSA. We only ask that BSA follow its own foundations and
stated policy. We would like to meet the executive committees and ask why
they do not.
Blessed Be!
Brad Kemp
Rick GIll
Excuse me for butting in late, but if I could be so crude
to ask what religious affiliation do you belong to that BSA wouldn't
let you sponsor a Troop ? As only a believer in an Almighty and not
a devout Sunday building visitor, this troubles me greatly, as it
perhaps others ? YiS Rick Gill
Brad Kemp
>>>>Excuse me for butting in late, but if I could be so crude
to ask what religious affiliation do you belong to that BSA wouldn't
let you sponsor a Troop ? As only a believer in an Almighty and not
a devout Sunday building visitor, this troubles me greatly, as it
perhaps others ? YiS<<<
Thanks for your kind words Rick. A discussion of comparative religions
would probably be off-topic for rec.scouting. Suffice it to say that it
is not Christian, pantheistic rather than monotheistic or polytheistic,
imminent rather than transcendent, places great value on personal freedom
as long as you harm no one else, doesn’t recognize the concepts of sin,
damnation, salvation, redemption, or an eternal conflict between good and
evil. It is cyclic in practice and cosmology (all things return again and
again) rather than linear (once born - once through one life - once dead -
once to ultimate reward). It recognizes the spirits of the Earth and sky,
and the four directions, etc., and has much else in common with NA
religions.
We get a lot of confusion generated because our beliefs usually need
longer conversations and discussions to explain. We commonly produce a six
evening set of classes to explain the basics to the curious: much too long
to explain hers.
Thanks a bunch for your interest and kind words. I really hope someone
can help us with information or influence. There are so many good people
its a shame that a few bigots have to ruin things for others.
Blessed Be!
Brad Kemp
James Hermann
: Thanks for your kind words Rick. A discussion of comparative religions
: would probably be off-topic for rec.scouting. Suffice it to say that it
: is not Christian, pantheistic rather than monotheistic or polytheistic,
: imminent rather than transcendent, places great value on personal freedom
: as long as you harm no one else, doesn’t recognize the concepts of sin,
: damnation, salvation, redemption, or an eternal conflict between good and
: evil. It is cyclic in practice and cosmology (all things return again and
: again) rather than linear (once born - once through one life - once dead -
: once to ultimate reward). It recognizes the spirits of the Earth and sky,
: and the four directions, etc., and has much else in common with NA
: religions.
: We get a lot of confusion generated because our beliefs usually need
: longer conversations and discussions to explain. We commonly produce a six
: evening set of classes to explain the basics to the curious: much too long
: to explain hers.
Aren't you being a bit melodramatic? I would assume that you are
followers of one of the "pagan" or "neo-pagan" religions, such as the
Wiccans or Church of all Worlds. Although persecuted for years, pagan
religions are widely accepted in Unitarian-Universalist Societies and
New Age groups. I don't think that you gain much by hiding your identity.
Most religions take a long time to learn, just consider the ordeal of
Catholic Catechism. :)
Jim
--
****** Jim Hermann * "To Question is the Answer." *
****** jher...@ais.net * No titles or labels allowed! *
Brad Kemp
jhermann@eagle (James Hermann) asks in a previous post?
Aren't you being a bit melodramatic? I would assume that you are
followers of one of the "pagan" or "neo-pagan" religions, such as the
Wiccans or Church of all Worlds. Although persecuted for years, pagan
religions are widely accepted in Unitarian-Universalist Societies and
New Age groups. I don't think that you gain much by hiding your identity.
To which I ask?
You complained about being “circumspect” in a post of my private letter to
you to rec.scouting.
In another post regarding MJD’s question:
>>Wicca. It’s not small, it’s well over a hundred (or even a
>>thousand) years old and it doesn’t say gays are sinners
>>in need of redemption.
>>(Also several Native American religions.)
You answered:
>Let’s not forget the Society of Friends (Quakers)
>[remember them? They came over from England in
>the 1700’s to escape persecution], Unitarian-Universalists
>(400 years), and United Church of Christ (used to be
>Congregationalists until the split with the Unitarians, also 400 years)
Of all these mentioned, only one is banned by BSA.
Of those mentioned, only one has national christian radio programs like
The Lutheran Hour devoting entire programs to promoting hatred and
misinformation about its people and beliefs.
Of those mentioned, only one has christian publications like The Champion,
devoting entire issues to misinformation and hatred against its people.
Of those mentioned, only one has national christain TV networks raising
money for hate campaigns aimed at disrupting religious assemblies.
Of those mentioned, only one has christian bookstores paying for
advertisements in local newspapers selling books of lies and defamations
about their beliefs.
Of those mentioned, only one has its members defined in virtually all
dictionaries as *An evil ugly old women having a pact with the devil,* and
their holy days described as, *An orgy of demons and devils.*
Of those mentioned, only one has evil ugly characterizations of its
members distributed nationwide every year, and posted for weeks at such
places as the payroll office at the National Laboratory where I work.
Of those mentioned, who’s members immigrated to the US seeking religious
freedom, only one was the subject of a nationally infamous panic where
many people were hanged (in 1692), accused of being that religion. Even
today the tourist information still says that the hangings were wrong; not
because people should not be hanged for their religion, but because
probably most of those hanged were not that religion after all. [My
family, who immigrated in 1630, seeking not so much religious freedom as
at least a safe place to hide, were].
Of those mentioned, only one is not hundreds of years old, or thousands,
but more probably hundred thousands.
OF THOSE MENTIONED ONLY ONE IS PROHIBITED BY BSA, not because of its
beliefs, but because of historic persecution based on the hate campaigns
mentioned above.
Perhaps I don’t have to be circumspect. But, perhaps I do.
Yours In Scouting.
Brad Kemp
BILL NELSON
In a previous article, brad...@aol.com (Brad Kemp) says:
>
>OF THOSE MENTIONED ONLY ONE IS PROHIBITED BY BSA, not because of its
>beliefs, but because of historic persecution based on the hate campaigns
>mentioned above.
>
It is so hard to talk to you when you talk in riddles.
What are you asking of us?
-bill
--
Bill Nelson, Webelos Den Leader
Eagles Patrol, Pack 878
John G. Lindner
because he feels that the professional staff in Texas is blocking or
preventing his point of view from reaching them directly.
John
--
jo...@drbear.com -or- ...!a2i!drbear!johnl
Scout Ldr
Each local council elects or appoints a certain of number members of the
National Committee to present and represent its views. These generally
will include the Council President and Council Commissioner. I believe
the number of National Council seats for the local council is on the order
of two plus one per 10,000 registered scouts/scouters.
The local Council President is therefore a likely person to whom you might
direct your quest.
- Pat Skelly <Scou...@AOL.com>
Settummanque, the blackeagle
> Excuse me if I restate the obvious, for I have not read this full thread.
>
> Each local council elects or appoints a certain of number members of the
> National Committee to present and represent its views. These generally
> will include the Council President and Council Commissioner. I believe
> the number of National Council seats for the local council is on the order
> of two plus one per 10,000 registered scouts/scouters.
Hey Scouter Pat!
Almost right... Each local Council elects at least three individuals
but it can be as many as 14, depending on youth membership and size of
the local Council area, to serve as members of the National _Council_.
The Council President and Commissioner are "automatic" members of the
National Council; each Council appoints or elects one person per 5000
youth members or fraction thereof (adult members don't count).
This is the main decision-making body of the BSA, and allows those
decisions to be made through the BSA's National Executive Board and
the day-to-day decisions to be made by the Chief Scout Executive, just
like in all of the local Councils.
The members of the 32 National Committees come from those National
Council members AS WELL AS other volunteers (like me at one time) and
professionals (to serve as advisors) from all over the USA. An
attempt is made to make each committee balanced and equal among all
represenatives of the BSA, but this is not feasible in many cases.
Youth members serve as members of seventeen National Committees, but
there are only two youth members on the National Executive Board: the
National Explorer President and the National Chief of the Order of the
Arrow.
Each committee meets at least quarterly, mainly in connection with a
National BSA event or activity to cut costs. Some committees meet
electronically, by way of conference calls (and I imagine now, through
electronic mail). Each Committee also has a professional
"gatekeeper", through which serves as the "secretary and advisor" to
the Committee and on a day-to-day basis, fields questions and answer
complains about the Committee's work and to act on their behalf until
such time as the Committee can meet once again to decide or consider
deciding on the issue or topic.
The Chief Scout Executive and the National Director of Operations meet
with those Committee Advisors once a quarter to exchange information
and to get "up to speed" on issues that can be considered by the
National Executive Board at it's next meeting, again, just like in
your local Council.
What Brad wants to do is to access and appear before the National
Religious Relationships Committee and feels that he's been (and he
has) stonewalled by the National Relationships Staff.
You're correct, Brad....you've been stonewalled and there's little you
can do at the National office. However, you might want to get your
information together and be ready to appear before the National
Religious Relationships Committee during the next National Meeting of
the BSA. In the meantime, a letter writing campaign to the "Scouting
Represenative" of each of this nation's established churches could get
you the name of at least ONE person serving on the BSA's Religious
Relationships Committee.
The BSA does NOT have a "master list" of its Committee members for
public release. There's an obivious reason for this, and it has to do
with the privacy of some of this nation's leading men and women in
many areas, including religious bodies.
So, your BEST bet would be to continue to try and reach the Committee
at the National Meeting or (because this is an odd year), at your
Region's Meeting (the four Regions hold their meetings in the odd
years between National Meetings). I am sure that someone will be
posting where those meetings will be held as soon as final plans are
released to the local Councils.
Settummanque!
--
Settummanque, the blackeagle... (MAJ) Mike L. Walton (
co-Owner, Blackeagle Services ___)_
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Brad Kemp
show it so maybe I did it wrong. Anyway, here it is again. If this
duplication for you please disregard.
From: jher...@ais.net (James Hermann)
>On Sun, 25 Dec 1994 Brad...@aol.com wrote:
>> Of all these mentioned, only one is banned by BSA.
Jim writes to e-mail regarding BSA discrimination:
>I had heard that the BSA was considering a petition to include
>a Wiccan Religious Award in their list of "accepted" awards.
>I take it that the BSA not only turned down that petition, but a
>petition to charter a scout troop also? Sad, very sad.
In short, we spend over 3 years applying through the normal channels to
sponsor a religious award for Wiccan scouts. BSA’s response was to
adopted a new rule aimed specifically at denying our application. Their
new rule said that a religion has to charter a minimum of 25 units to
sponsor a religious award. Sorry, they said, you can sponsor a religious
award, but first you have to sponsor 25 units. [It really is exclusionary
to any of a large number of smaller religions. BSA is for equality only
for large religions.] After discussions with our own national
organization, we decided to take them up on their proposal. We have many
local churches who need youth programs, and like many other faiths, we
believe that Scouting would be valuable for our young people. We then
applied to charter scouting unit. Thanks for the idea we said, we will be
happy to sponsor many scouting units.
Unfortunately, without even letting us meet with whoever makes their
decisions, without giving any specific reasons, and without being able to
invent any new rules, they just denied our application. Apparently, they
have decided that they will base their decisions solely on religious
intolerance.
>Someone had mentioned the Wicca on rec.scouting several
>weeks ago. The comment was that the BSA would probably
>accept Wicca as a religious organization, as an example of how
>tolerant the BSA was of other religions. The author mentioned
>this opinion in the context of the recent airing of a TV story about
>a supposedly Wiccan family.
Perhaps you refer to a recent episode of Picket Fences. If TV is a
reflection of common American values, and to a large extent it is, then
BSA is out of step. It is an example all right, but not of how tolerant
BSA is. It is a glaring example of intolerance at BSA. Whoever made that
assumption is sadly mistaken.
>If one person is persecuted, then we are all persecuted. However,
>you need to be more public about your problems, if you believe
>that private means have been exhausted.
Thanks for your support Jim. The following letter seems to close off all
further room for private discussions with BSA. We would like to hold some
private discussions with the member representatives on the BSA
Relationships committee, and also the executive committee. That’s why I
began this thread, to try to find them without starting a large public
protest. We would still like to work quietly, as long as there is some
hope of success.
[Beginning of letter]
BOY SCOUTS OF AMERICA,
National Office,
PO Box 152079, Irving, TX. 75015
214-580-2000
December 19, 1994
Mr. Brad Kemp, Chairman
Youth Scouting Program Committee
Covenant of the Goddess
(address)
Dear Mr. Kemp:
I have been asked to respond to your December 8 letter to Mr. Norman
Augustine.
Let me assure you that it was not my intention to offend you or anyone of
your faith. After further discussion, the Boy Scouts of America still
respectfully declines your request to become a chartering organization.
Thank you for your interest. However, we feel that no useful purpose
would be served by continuing this dialogue.
Very truly yours,
Donald L. Townsend, Director
Relationships Division.
[End of letter]
For any readers who are unfamiliar with their terminology, a *chartering
organization* referred to in the second paragraph means an organization
that may sponsor or *charter* a troop, pack, or post. This kind of
attitude is unheard of in World Scouting where members of many faiths are
sponsors of Scouting in many countries, the Brotherhood of Scouting. Only
in the US, under BSA, is Scouting open only to members of particular
faiths, selected on some non-disclosed criteria.
We would appreciate whatever help any of our friends may be able to
provide, including complaints to your local Councils, and/or demands that
they vote in favor of religious tolerance at their BSA national meetings.
Or, you could write to BSA President, Norman Augustine, and express your
opinion of religious intolerance.
Blessed Be
Brad Kemp