On Sun, 01 Jul 2012 15:21:51 GMT, J. Hugh Sullivan <
Ea...@bellsouth.net> wrote:
> On Sun, 01 Jul 2012 00:44:46 GMT, Brian Salter-Duke
><
b_d...@bigpond.com.au> wrote:
>
>>> The reverse of what used to be... In my youth queers were beaten if
>>> they "got out of line". The pendulum never stops swinging - too moral
>>> to too liberal and back to too moral in the future.
>>
>>So the violence is the moral position. Very sad.
>
> God destroyed Sodom amd Gommorroh. Capital punishment has existed for
> years. What is your point?
Violence is rarely the moral way. The story of Sodom amd Gommorroh in
the Bible is not supported by any evidence. Capital punishment has
indeed exited for years, but the number of countries in the world that
use it is decreasing. It is immoral as it often kills innocent people.
It is not a mark of a civilised country. Many states in the US are
beginning to see that.
>>I do not see the pendulum swinging back any time soon. In Europe and
>>Australia and in parts of the US, gays are just accepted. No fuss. No
>>bother.
>
> I see it continuing to swing to a much more immoral posirtion in my
> lifetime.
What you see as imoral I see as a positive move.
>>> It's entirely possible that BSA will die in the liberal states. That's
>>> better than acceptance.
>>
>>So lots of yuong people will lose the possabi;ity of taking part in a
>>wothwhiole movement? Again, how sad.
>
> How sad for those who refuse to qualify for membership in BSA. You
> probably don't play professional sports or participate in Olympic
> trials BECAUSE YOU DON"T QUALIFY. BSA has no more obligation to change
> the standards than they.
This is a totally false comparision. Sure, only a few can can play
professional sports or participate in Olympic trials, but many many more
can participate in the sport. Scouting is not an organisation for the
elite. B-P designed it as a movement for all boys. Sure, there has to be
some rules, but there is not reason why it should have no boys in the
what you call the liberal states.
>>In UK and Australia a different route was followed. The Scouting
>>movement is still strong and still helps young [people to lead better
>>lives. That is how it should.
> Get back to me about that when the UK is a world class power without
> the USA - or Australia becomes a world class power. Our falling from
> power coincides with our recognition of queers, socialists and
> atheists - the very sort of immorality and ignorance (not you
> personally) that you support.
Scouting is not just for world class powers. It is for all countries.
Your analysis of the US falling from power is rubbish. You are losing
out because China is geting stronger and you are massively in debt to
them It is nothing to do with "recognition of queers, socialists and
atheists", but you do not have much time for looking at the evidence, do
you?
>>>>> I was not confused as a teenager. And I presume the weakness that
>>>>> would allow one to commit suicide is another sickness that needs a
>>>>> cure.
>>>>
>>>>I was not confused as a teenager. However, it is quite clear that many
>>>>teenagers who suspect that they are gay get very confused, very unhappy
>>>>and sometimes suicidial when faced by a society that tells them that
>>>>they are not normal, that God hates them and so on.
>>>
>>> Then they have a problem.
>>
>>And Scouting should help with that problem, not blame them.
>
> BSA helps all those who qualify for membership. Insecurity resulting
> from social abnormality and failure should be treated by
> professionals.
If it serious yes, but Scouting can and does very often give boys a
sense of their own importance when that is lacking. It is not just for
secure, strong kids. It is about making secure, strong kids.
>>> Queers should be in church to ask forgiveness for their sin, just as
>>> any other sinner. If they give up on Christianity, they lose, not me.
>>
>>The gays in Australia who are Christian are convincing the church to take
>>a more tolerant line. They are winning too. Soon only the
>>fundamentalist and pentacolsta;list churches will be condemming. That
>>homosexuality is a sin is controversial. As a said earlier, those who
>>say the Bible states thsi, are quite happy to ignore many opther things
>>the bible says almost on the same page as the texts they quote.
>
> The Bible is very clear on whether a man should lie with a man as he
> would lie with a woman. Only those looking for an excuse refuse to
> accept that.
Do you follow every single rule in Leviticus? I do not think so.
> And they prey on the ignorance of others for acceptance. I'll admit
> that does appear to be working.
>>> The purpose of BSA is to teach leadership and strong citizenship. That
>>> is not possible if abnormal people (queers) are homogenized with
>>> normal people.
Gays are not abnormal. What a horrible word is "homogenized" for people
quietly living along side each other without hassle. You are just simply
prejudiced.
>>It is perfectly possible and happens here and in the UK.
>
> Perhaps that is why Scouting is comparatively weak in those countries.
Scouting has been growing quite a lot in UK in recent years. In most
areas, the growth is limited by lack of leaders. The growth in Australia
is not strong, I agree. Is membership growing in the US? In particular,
is it growing outside the Mormons?
> I have camped with people from other countries - they all looked
> disadvantaged and poor.
So did some of the boys that B-P brought together on Brownsea Island
with boys from English Public (Private) schools. He made it clear from
the very beginning that it was not for advantaged and rich boys.
>>Then you were a very poor Scouter as Scouters have to work with all
>>boys and some are not strong.
>
> BSA DOES NOT have to work with all boys. BSA works with those who
> qualify for membership.
Maybe, but Scouters should still have to work with boys who are not
strong. Scouting should seek to widen the membership, because while you
may not have to take all boys in, it is clear that all boys could
benefit from Scouting.
> You try to condemn me because of my strength - I condemn you because
> you are morally weak.
I condemn you because you are morally weak. There is no proper grounding
for deciding what is morally strong. I thing my grounding od morality is
better than yours, but you will disagree.
>>> The meek might inherit the earth but it won't take the strong very
>>> long to get it back.
>>
>>I consider that statement to be fascist.
>
> You have my permission to consider what you wish. I'll inform you when
> that matters to me.
>
>>You clearly do not believe that "The meek might inherit the earth". So
>>here is one point where you do not follow what the Bible says.
>
> Reread my statement. The strong would not have to take it back if the
> meek did not inherit.
I do not see anywhere where Jesus says that the strong will take it back
again.
I am not a Christian, and I have no religion. However I was brought up
as a Christian, have direct experience of several Christian bodies and
have studied others. What is quite clear to me is that Christianity has
been highjacked by every political movement. This is why the different
Christian bodies differ so much and why all of them touch what is
written in the Bible only loosely. Your views are those of the
Christianity highjacked by the American right. The Christian Socialist
movement was just as bad although it did some excellent work in the
slums of East London and other towns in the UK. The Anglican Church was
once called the Conservative Party at prayer. I see no evidence to
believe any of them, and I find Christianity to be often immoral and
mostly not life enhancing. It frequently does not support science that
is the best method we have for discovering how the world and the
universe works. The religious attacks on evolution and the reality of
human caused climate change are simply disgusting. However, you can
believe pretty well anything you want as a Christian about anything. A
scientist can not.
Do you think anyone else is reading any of this?