Weight Lifting with Training.
Gary
going to have to do some weight training. What should I do and how
many reps etc. Also a friend recommended Kreatine (sorry on spelling)
to help fight fatigue. What do you think or reccomend?
Thanks Gary
Elflord
> I'm 120lbs, 5'4, and a junior and I believe to do better I think I'm
> going to have to do some weight training.
Why ?
Cheers,
--
Elflord
Daryl
"Elflord" <ab...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:slrnf47t4r...@panix2.panix.com...
> On 2007-05-11, Gary <ghl...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>> I'm 120lbs, 5'4, and a junior and I believe to do better I think I'm
>> going to have to do some weight training.
>
> Why ?
Because it's true.
>
> Cheers,
> --
> Elflord
Elflord
Why ?
Cheers,
--
Elflord
runsrealfast
I would recommend doing the strength training but avoid any and all
muscle building products. First of all many are a waste of money.
Second, unless you run the 100m or 200m you don't want to get to big
and the purpose behind those protein products is for you to get big.
John
Elflord
Some questions:
Do you know what creatine is and why it is used ? (if not, why are you giving
advice about it ?)
Is the fact that many products are a "waste of money" a sound basis for not
using any supplements ?
What are your criteria for deciding whether or not a supplement is a "muscle
building product" ?
Are you aware that "muscle building" substances ranging from protein
supplements all the way up to various steroids are used by endurance athletes
as recovery aids ?
Cheers,
--
Elflord
Daniel
Hi, Gary. Just for reference, I was 5'5" and maybe 120 lbs. in wet
clothes as a Junior -- 132.5 lbs this morning and 5'7" at age 49.
When I'm being good I do a 30 minute core-and-weights workout three
times a week. (I haven't been good lately, as my training weeks
show). I only do the arm weights (two-lb. dumbell in each hand, 3
sets of ten, sets separated by core exercises) -- on the advice of my
doctor because I have had joint "issues" in one shoulder. Bones and
connective tissues remodel along lines of stress -- and if you don't
stress 'em they get kinda old and soft.
I do most of the arm weights movements on this page:
http://tinyurl.com/ypx2gg
But I don't do the elastic band stuff.
As I said, the weights are really for arm/shoulder bone health. As
far as running is concerned, I think core conditioning has helped a
lot.
The "core" exercises I do are "bridges" and hip rotations. I got
these originally from library books but this describes bridges:
http://www.bodybuilding.com/fun/morgan3.htm
:- Prone Bridge (Bows and Toes)
:- In a prone position on a floor mat, the athlete balances on the tips of
:- toes and elbows while attempting to maintain a straight line from
:- heels to head. This exercise focuses on both the anterior and
:- posterior muscle groups of the trunk and pelvis.
:-
:- Lateral Bridge (Bridge Right and Bridge Left)
:- In a sideways posture on a floor mat, the athlete balances on one
:- elbow and the side of one foot while attempting to keep the body
:- aligned in a straight line. This exercise focuses on the abdominal
:- obliques and transversus abdominus. Also, the lateral bridge teaches
:- the athlete how to sense the proper pelvic position.
:-
:- Supine Bridge
:- In a supine posture on a floor mat, the athlete raises the hips so that
:- only the head, shoulders, and feet are touching the mat. The supine
:- bridge focuses on the gluteal muscles. Stronger glutes help maintain
:- pelvic control, which is important for movements that require hip
:- extension.
The other one I do is "crossovers". I lie on my back on the floor
(aaah...) with knees up /\__0 and arms straight out to the
sides like a " T ". Keeping shoulders on the floor, turn knees/hips
to the left, center, right, center. To make it harder, first lift
feet off the floor till shins are parallel to the floor, and keep the
calf-and-thighs in that position to the left, center, right, center...
I'd say leave the creatine, "Muscle Milk", etc. to the Mr. Universe
wannabe's. There is no advantage to "bulking up" and it can be a
disadvantage later in life.
Good luck!
--
Daniel ( deltae...@usa.net )
--
Posted via a free Usenet account from http://www.teranews.com
runsrealfast
> On 2007-05-11, runsrealfast <runsrealf...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>
> > On May 10, 8:24 pm, Gary <ghlu...@hotmail.com> wrote:
> >> I'm 120lbs, 5'4, and a junior and I believe to do better I think I'm
> >> going to have to do some weight training. What should I do and how
> >> many reps etc. Also a friend recommended Kreatine (sorry on spelling)
> >> to help fight fatigue. What do you think or reccomend?
>
> >> Thanks Gary
>
> > I would recommend doing the strength training but avoid any and all
> > muscle building products. First of all many are a waste of money.
> > Second, unless you run the 100m or 200m you don't want to get to big
> > and the purpose behind those protein products is for you to get big.
>
> Some questions:
>
> Do you know what creatine is and why it is used ? (if not, why are you giving
> advice about it ?)
Yes I do. Also being an accomplished basketball player and having done
some coaching I know exactly what athletes use it for. Distance
runners should avoid these type of products
>
> Is the fact that many products are a "waste of money" a sound basis for not
> using any supplements ?
I wasn't referring to supplements. Remember I only said body building
products. There is a difference.
>
> What are your criteria for deciding whether or not a supplement is a "muscle
> building product" ?
Go to GNC and its pretty clear.
>
> Are you aware that "muscle building" substances ranging from protein
> supplements all the way up to various steroids are used by endurance athletes
> as recovery aids ?
again the difference between supplements and body building products.
Elflord
>>
>> Do you know what creatine is and why it is used ? (if not, why are you giving
>> advice about it ?)
>
> Yes I do. Also being an accomplished basketball player and having done
> some coaching I know exactly what athletes use it for. Distance
> runners should avoid these type of products
I'm not critiquing your basketball skills, and as far as I know, no formal
qualifications are required to do "some coaching", so I don't really understand
the relevance of this.
The question you haven't provided a satisfactory response to, is, what do you
mean by "these type of products" ? What is creatine, and why is it used ? And
why should endurance athletes avoid it ?
>> Is the fact that many products are a "waste of money" a sound basis for not
>> using any supplements ?
>
> I wasn't referring to supplements. Remember I only said body building
> products. There is a difference.
I don't understand what you mean by "bodybuilding products", because it is not
a technical or scientific term. Any supplement taken by bodybuilders, including
many of those that are also used by endurance athletes, could be called a
"bodybuilding product". But you obviously have something more specific in mind.
>> What are your criteria for deciding whether or not a supplement is a "muscle
>> building product" ?
>
> Go to GNC and its pretty clear.
It sounds like you are saying that your criterion is that a superficial
inspection of the product label makes it look like the product is marketted
towards bodybuilders. But I believe you can do better than this, so, try again.
>> Are you aware that "muscle building" substances ranging from protein
>> supplements all the way up to various steroids are used by endurance athletes
>> as recovery aids ?
>
> again the difference between supplements and body building products.
The only definition of "bodybuilding products" I'm aware of, are products
that bodybuilders use. But many of these products are also useful for endurance
athletes.
Cheers,
--
Elflord
runsrealfast
re-read my original post, take it in context and then reply. I think
if you actually think and then respond you will comprehend what i was
trying to say to the guy. Your reading into this way to much.
one other point. You say that many endurance athletes the question I
ask you is do they use it to "supplement" or to body build. This
poster is wanting to use it in conjunction with weight lifting. If he
walked into a gym and asked a training (and got help) he would end up
stiff and over sized. Again look at the context.
John
Elflord
>
>
> re-read my original post, take it in context and then reply. I think
I did. You said "avoid any and all muscle building products".
This could plausibly include products like whey protein (which is primarily
marketted towards bodybuilders). I take whey supplements on a regular basis,
and I'm sure as hell not huge.
Creatine would probably have zero effect either way, unless he's running 800m
or shorter.
> if you actually think and then respond you will comprehend what i was
> trying to say to the guy. Your reading into this way to much.
>
> one other point. You say that many endurance athletes the question I
> ask you is do they use it to "supplement" or to body build. This
> poster is wanting to use it in conjunction with weight lifting. If he
> walked into a gym and asked a training (and got help) he would end up
> stiff and over sized. Again look at the context.
I don't agree. A high school kid with distance runners genetics is not going to
bulk up doing a minimal weights routine as cross-training, in conjunction with
high mileage training. Even pro athletes who take various steroids in
conjunction with weight routines are able to do so without "bulking up". The
main reasons they don't bulk up are (1) genetics, (2) they're not training for
hypertrophy, and (3) their primary activity (running high miles) makes bulking
up almost impossible.
He should stay away from supplements that have substantial anabolic effects,
including both illegal steroids, and also legal over the counter "pro-hormones"
like andro, because they are nearly all banned substances.
The others are largely recovery agents, and some, like whey protein are quite
useful. Yet others, like so-called "mass builders" are expensive for what they
are. And some others like creatine aren't known to be useful for endurance
athletes.
Cheers,
--
Elflord
Dot
> I'm 120lbs, 5'4, and a junior and I believe to do better I think I'm
> going to have to do some weight training. What should I do and how
> many reps etc.
Why weight training and not running-specific strength training? By
"weight training" I'm assuming you mean something with weights over 20
lb in a gym (vs hand weights used in an assortment of drills), usually
with feet planted side-by-side on floor, relatively speaking (lunges are
an exception). Strength training is usually recommended before
plyometrics and many people have found that beneficial to their running,
esp. on hills.
You should probably have a knowledgeable (in strength for running, not
body building) person show you how to do the lifts, if you go that way.
But you should also consider running-specific strength work, IMHO. And
it's really hard to beat hills if you live near mountains or even some
big hills.
I agree with Daniel's suggestions of core work, and there's a gajillion
ways of doing core. (I think the prone and lateral bridges he refers to
are sometimes called "planks" since there's no arch.)
> Also a friend recommended Kreatine (sorry on spelling)
> to help fight fatigue. What do you think or reccomend?
I'll leave the chemical discussion to others, but you might google for
"creatine" in some medical-type pages (as opposed to
commercial-products-to-sell type pages for information.
Dot
--
"The goal is training and adaptation, not destruction and injury."
- John Hardy
http://www.mountainrunning.coolrunning.com.au/misc/training.shtml
Melinda Shore
runsrealfast <runsre...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>If he
>walked into a gym and asked a training (and got help) he would end up
>stiff and over sized. Again look at the context.
With all due respect, that has not been my experience.
--
Melinda Shore - Software longa, hardware brevis - sh...@panix.com
Prouder than ever to be a member of the reality-based community
runsrealfast
>Even pro athletes who take various steroids in
> conjunction with weight routines are able to do so without "bulking up".
lol. You must be a lawyer for Barry Bonds!
John
runsrealfast
I find your argument funny, because a few months ago, we had a pretty
healthy discussion about weight training and it was the consensuse of
the group (which I was not a part of) that runners don't need to do
any weight training. Now we are saying this guy should not only weight
training but take a supplement to go along with it (not to mention he
is only 16 and his body is most likley still growing). The criss cross
doesn't make sense.
However, like I was saying everything should be taken in context. If
this were a 28 yr old who was working on running ultra's my advise
would be different.
runsrealfast
> In article <1178904344.434799.34...@y5g2000hsa.googlegroups.com>,
>
> runsrealfast <runsrealf...@hotmail.com> wrote:
> >If he
> >walked into a gym and asked a training (and got help) he would end up
> >stiff and over sized. Again look at the context.
>
> With all due respect, that has not been my experience.
I would agree, men and women are treated differently in most gyms.
Women want to tone while men want to bulk up and be riped.
John
Elflord
> I find your argument funny, because a few months ago, we had a pretty
> healthy discussion about weight training and it was the consensuse of
> the group (which I was not a part of) that runners don't need to do
> any weight training.
I agree that runners don't need to do weight training.
I don't agree that runners will automatically bulk up because they take a
supplement that is marketted towards bodybuilders.
> Now we are saying this guy should not only weight
> training but take a supplement to go along with it
I don't think anyone has suggested this. Note that I didn't advise him to
weight train. Some posters have suggested core work and plyometrics. I don't
strongly recommend this, but I am not against it either.
[snip]
> However, like I was saying everything should be taken in context. If
You talk as though you have the gist right and I am going out of my way to
trip you up on the details. I am not disagreeing on minor details though --
I think you're simply a long way off the mark in your views on what these
supplements do.
Cheers,
--
Elflord
runsrealfast
> I think you're simply a long way off the mark in your views on what these
> supplements do.
You can think that but I am just speaking from real life observations
I have made.
John
Robert Grumbine
Why do you think you need to do weight training?
(Straight question, not rhetorical. There are reasons why you might
have a need for it. Then again, a lot of folks get sucked in for
no good reason.)
Creatine was oft-mentioned in the group here when I first arrived.
To the extent it was mentioned, it was mentioned for power/speed -- not
endurance. iow, to make you faster, not to be able to run farther.
As I recall the discussion, such as it was, there was little research
support (even from the manufacturers) for creatine use by distance
runners, and what little there was, came from the manufacturers.
In your pursuit to compete with the elite, you're still early stages.
You have a ton to gain by straightforward taking care of your health
(eating a good diet, getting good sleep, perhaps some general purpose
cross-training, which might include weights) and putting in a steady
mileage base. If you hit a hard ceiling on your performances, and it's
sub-elite, _then_ would be the time to look in to ground wasp (which
was advertised a while back too) and assorted other supplements or
exotica.
Between one guesstimator and another, just maturing in good health
and with continued sustained mileage base should be good enough to
get you under 10 for the 2 mile (in your early 20s, maybe not next
year). That's not elite, but it sure puts you out on the fast tail
of the nonelite. Note: SWAG involved, not precision formulae (even
to the limited extent that precision could be involved).
--
Robert Grumbine http://www.radix.net/~bobg/ Science faqs and amateur activities notes and links.
Sagredo (Galileo Galilei) "You present these recondite matters with too much
evidence and ease; this great facility makes them less appreciated than they
would be had they been presented in a more abstruse manner." Two New Sciences
runsrealfast
Sorry I missed posting this on my last one...
> I agree that runners don't need to do weight training.
>
> I don't agree that runners will automatically bulk up because they take a
> supplement
what about weight training in combination of supplements? I'm curious
of your opinion on that. (you know how I feel).
John
Elflord
Barry Bonds does not run 100 mile weeks, and does not have endurance athletes
genetics.
One doesn't need to "imagine" what happens when endurance athletes take
steroids. Regina Jacobs tested positive for THG. Nandro is also used by
Charlie Pendejo
> I take whey supplements on a regular basis, and I'm sure as
> hell not huge.
Then again the odds are Gary's not a protein-deficient macrobiotic
vegan. ;-p
> Even pro athletes who take various steroids in conjunction with
> weight routines are able to do so without "bulking up".
Well, whatever a couple of my late thirty-something colleagues took a
year or two ago when they started hittin' the gym, Gary should
certainly avoid that. Man, those guys had software-guy builds before
they started, and within what seemed like just a few months they were
hulking from the chest up. I found it startling and kind of
disturbing, I guess due to the degree and the suddenness.
They must've eventually backed off whatever the main bulk-producing
ingredient, as they've both shed some of this upper body bulk since
then. Maybe they found out most chicks aren't primarily looking for
nerdy guys whose upper reaches look like pro wrestlers and who cannot
turn their necks independently.
To Gary: weights may or may not help you. Good runners and coaches
have different opinions and experiences. I have no strong opinion on
that, myself.
But running more should definitely help you, as long as you don't go
so insane with it that you get injured or overtrain. You're just
starting to scratch the surface of what pure running training will do
for you. Keep doing the same thing for a few years, you'll get
better. Run more easy miles over the offseasons, you'll get better
faster.
The body takes years to reach its potential. Look at the young
American stars of the sport, like Hall, Ritz, Webb, Teg... they didn't
even come close to maxing out in the middle of high school. They
continued to improve (though not always steady) through college and
for years afterward.
This is in response to your "to do better I think I'm going to have to
do ..." which sounds like you think you're maxed out on the running
side. You're not.
runsrealfast
First of all I was just making a joke...
Secondly the argument that you gave could actually work for Bonds. If
you haven't paid attention lately one argument against him (saying he
used roids) was that is size increased, as did his hat and feet size.
Your saying that elite athletes can lift and use and not get big in
some ways disproves that argument against Bonds, or at least could be
used.
John
Elflord
My argument is that steroids usage does not imply getting big. This is not
logically equivalent to saying that getting big does not imply steroid usage.
The position that getting big does not imply steroids usage is an argument
that he could, and certainly would use. If he only got "big" in ways that could
be plausibly attributed to a weight training regimen, that argument would
probably work.
Cheers,
--
Elflord
runsrealfast
> My argument is that steroids usage does not imply getting big. This is not
> logically equivalent to saying that getting big does not imply steroid usage.
I wasn't meaning they were equivalent, because your right, but I was
just pointing out that critics of Bonds can't just say look at his
size he must have used steroids.
John
Dot
planning on swim team in summer? Consider your total volume of training
and priorities. And if you're training for xc, why do you think weights
would provide more benefits than just running lots of hilly courses
(alternating with some flat) - or mountains? You may have a reason. I'm
just asking.
(When I answered originally, I was thinking winter conditions with ice
and strength training can be helpful to flesh out a program then and had
forgotten about your swimming and tri's. Although core is almost always
good for many.)
Gary
My friend recommend creatine because he said it helped your recovery
is this true?
Gary
I've tried bulking up a few years ago. I ate ice cream 3x a day for
two straight weeks and didn't gain a pound. Someone else asked why I
wanted to do strength training its because at districts and in other
big races it gets a little muddy and I notice those with more mass to
use tend to do better. I'm not looking to bulk up like a body builder
I just want to get stronger.
Gary
> In article <1178850249.243637.267...@e65g2000hsc.googlegroups.com>,
> Sagredo (Galileo Galilei) "You present these recondite matters with too much
> evidence and ease; this great facility makes them less appreciated than they
> would be had they been presented in a more abstruse manner." Two New Sciences
The staying healthy does not present a problem I eat and sleep
regularly. I know I'm just scratching, but our cross country team is
having a strong turnover and I'm the only returning top 5 runner from
last season. (I usually run 3-5 on the team) and for next year I have
to do a lot better to have a decent team and I want to do well. So
will strength training off season help me at all?
Gary
So the consensus is strength training won't help even as a supplement
to running miles?
Elflord
> My friend recommend creatine because he said it helped your recovery
> is this true?
I don't think it will help a whole lot. Strength athletes use it all the time,
endurance athletes don't.
Whey protein might help, but not strictly necessary.
Others have already made good suggestions in terms of resistance training --
the common theme (see posts by Dot and Daniel in this thread) is to focus on
sports-specific strengthening and eschew "traditional" weight training routines
(that are heavily biased towards bodybuilding)
I agree with Chucky who says that strength training may or may not help, whereas
you can be damn sure that a good base will help. Intelligent use of strength
training may help, but it's much more important to work on endurance.
btw, Paul Tergat is 6ft and 130lb, and also the worlds best cross country
runner before he got old and slow and did marathons.
Cheers,
--
Elflord
shinypenny
> I'll leave the chemical discussion to others, but you might google for
> "creatine" in some medical-type pages (as opposed to
> commercial-products-to-sell type pages for information.
Try this one:
http://www.quackwatch.org/01QuackeryRelatedTopics/DSH/creatine.html
jen
Melinda Shore
Gary <ghl...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>So the consensus is strength training won't help even as a supplement
>to running miles?
I think it's good for overall health but if you're concerned
about your running performance upper body musculature is
effectively dead weight. I think it was Kris Freeman
(member of US nordic ski team) who said that his training
plans for last summer included spending *less* time in the
gym because he'd been developing muscles that he had to haul
up hills that didn't help his skiing. And if you've ever
seen an elite cyclist with his shirt off, you know they're
not exactly rippling Adonises in that sport, either. And
it's precisely because muscles are weight that has to be
dragged around.
Dot
>
> The staying healthy does not present a problem I eat and sleep
> regularly. I know I'm just scratching, but our cross country team is
> having a strong turnover and I'm the only returning top 5 runner from
> last season. (I usually run 3-5 on the team) and for next year I have
> to do a lot better to have a decent team and I want to do well.
Isn't the team scoring based on the top 5 (or something), so it's not
how you alone do, but how well the top 5 do. ie. You can win, but if
rest of team doesn't do well, the team doesn't do well. Should you be
inspiring the other top runners (or those with potential) and getting
them out there working on base? (I was pre-title IX, so "rules" and
"scoring" other than getting from start to finish as best you can are
outside my normal level of mis-information.)
> So
> will strength training off season help me at all?
>
It all comes down to being experiment of one.
I also can't remember if you said you discussed any of this with your coach.
Just my take. At xc level, you aren't going up and down mountains, but
some strength would help. Some of our top local runners seem to be (and
look) stronger after college - probably a lot of it is body maturing.
Some of that is just miles of running, esp. up and down mountains. (Mtn
running is popular here and I think last year or year before we had 2
students on US team for World Mtn Trophy. xc running is what they do in
school.) But it wouldn't surprise me if they've also done some strength
and conditioning work at the college level, if not hs. The one guy I'm
thinking of has done well in national xc skiing sprint championships and
won one of the big local mtn races last year (about 24 mi, a few
thousand feet vertical over some nasty terrain). He probably did some
orienteering with his father when he was younger on some steep rolling
terrain (same place where I train).
Many of our top xc runners, even at hs level, are top xc skiers. It also
wouldn't surprise me if they do some strength and conditioning
supervised by their coach, esp. for skiing - in periodization terms, you
need to be strong to learn the skills properly. (One of the local xc ski
coaches and fast trail runners helps with our winter xt class.)
FWIW, here's what some top mtn runners looked like at world
championships a few years ago. 1st page is jr men (up to 19, iirc), sr
women, sr men. Not sure where you fit in that scale of thin to bulky.
http://home.att.net/%7Eakrunning/WMRT2003/index.html
But a lot of the increased size with age, I think just comes from
growing and maturing and running - esp. running lots of hills, esp mtns
with 30% slopes.
You may also find that you get better in mud as you get more experience
with mud.
FWIW, I do find running-specific strength and power workouts have helped
me, but I'm about 40+ yrs older than you. Most of my drills stem from
some PT drills for some muscle imbalances and logical progressions. Most
were targeted on small muscles (balance, proprioception, etc). And they
are usually done in Nov-Jan time frame in early base with first races in
mid May-early June time frame. My body can't handle strength training
AND hills at the same time. Strength training gives me a good start to
do the hills when the snow starts melting enough that I can actually run
up the big hills. I then start adding the hill bounding or steep hill
workouts, and those are what has given *me* the most direct benefits.
However, the weighted lunges, weighted step-ups, and unweighted, but
continuous plyometrics (jumping over mats in a line, not single depth
jumps or weird things like that) provide a base for them.
YMMV since you're dealing with very different time lines within a year
and a much younger body. Some studies have shown that people that don't
respond to normal training may respond better if they have the strength
training first. I think I'm one of those, but our seasons also have a
lot to do with it.
In your case, I can't help but think that more hill running would help
more - unless you had a strength / conditioning coach that might see
particular weaknesses where targeted work would help. Again, just my
uninformed, but observant of what's around me, $.02.
Dot
>
> My friend recommend creatine because he said it helped your recovery
> is this true?
>
milk? There's an entire thread on chocolate milk in another forum. That
many trail runners can't be wrong. ;) And you can get it at your local
grocery store, although some (like myself) seem to prefer the chocolate
syrup additive to regular milk. Those carbs in the chocolate really make
a difference.
Elflord
>> have different opinions and experiences. I have no strong opinion on
>> that, myself.
>> But running more should definitely help you, as long as you don't go
>> so insane with it that you get injured or overtrain. You're just
>> starting to scratch the surface of what pure running training will do
>> for you. Keep doing the same thing for a few years, you'll get
>> better. Run more easy miles over the offseasons, you'll get better
>> faster.
>>
>> The body takes years to reach its potential. Look at the young
>> American stars of the sport, like Hall, Ritz, Webb, Teg... they didn't
>> even come close to maxing out in the middle of high school. They
>> continued to improve (though not always steady) through college and
>> for years afterward.
>>
>> This is in response to your "to do better I think I'm going to have to
>> do ..." which sounds like you think you're maxed out on the running
>> side. You're not.
>
> So the consensus is strength training won't help even as a supplement
> to running miles?
That's not what he said, and it's not the consensus. The consensus is that
you'll get better by working on your base over time. Non-specific strength
training *might or might not* work. The cumulative effect of specific training
*certainly will* work. If I could find anyone in this forum to bet against me
on this point (I can't, because it's a consensus!), I'd put good money on it!
I don't think many people would agree though that you *have to* lift weights
to get to the next level. Some posters may be "for" general strength training
(which may or may not include weights) but their endorsements are nuanced and
come with the notion that the regimen must be carefully tailored to both the
unique demands of the sport and the unique needs of the individual.
Cheers,
--
Elflord
Daryl
"Elflord" <ab...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:slrnf4a5df...@panix2.panix.com...
It's interesting that the Stanford 800m to 5000 meter runners do a great
deal of off season weight lifting (not to gain any size, just arm strength,
specific leg strength, and core) and some strength training (weights) during
the season. It seems that their arms get tired at the end of a race and
that they run better with some strength training. Their distance runners do
pretty well in the NCAA's BTW.
>
> Cheers,
> --
> Elflord
Charlie Pendejo
> So the consensus is strength training won't help even as a
> supplement to running miles?
Best I can tell there's not much of a consensus. As I said,
>> Good runners and coaches have different opinions and
>> experiences. I have no strong opinion on that, myself.
Seriously, it's easy to find lots of top notch runners who never did
strength training or did but it didn't help, and lots of others who
say it helps them a lot. If most people agree on something, it's
this: if your time is limited, spend it running, if you can do so
without injury. An hour running will help you more than an hour of
strength training. If you have extra time after you put in all the
miles you care to (or think you can get away with), then worry about
strength training if you want.
I'll add this: there's a chapter or two in the book _Run Strong_
(Kevin Beck, editor) which talk about strength training for runners
and specific exercises. I'd give this type of thing better odds of
helping running than some generic circuit with weights or machines.
Also wouldn't be surprised if whatever Dot tells you to do is about
the same as, or if different then at least as good as, what's in that
book. She seems knowledgeable about this stuff.
Charlie Pendejo
> It's interesting that the Stanford 800m to 5000 meter runners do a great
> deal of off season weight lifting (not to gain any size, just arm strength,
> specific leg strength, and core) and some strength training (weights) during
> the season. It seems that their arms get tired at the end of a race and
> that they run better with some strength training.
Yeah, I've heard this claim too. One fast guy who beats both Donovan
and me in some local races, Joe McVeigh, says something similar.
But again, it's also easy to find people who succeed without that
stuff. There's apparently more than one way to skin a lemur.
Do you know if the Stanford guys do the "low weight, high reps" you
usually hear about, when people talk about wanting to strengthen
without bulk? A few years ago I also read someone's argument that
"really high weight, and just a few reps" was best for developing
power without mass. I don't know much about this stuff, but if both
of the foregoing are true then I guess there's something magic about
moderate weights and 8-12 reps that stimulates growth in muscle size?
Anyhow my arms aren't notably tired at the end of races from a mile to
at least a half marathon. Maybe if I had better, faster legs and
lungs, then the arms would have more trouble keeping up and I'd need
to pump some iron. Or if I carried a couple kilos of water in each
hand like those nutty trail ultramarathoners...
Dot
I read Beck's book about a year, maybe 2 yrs ago. While I don't think
I've done anything specifically from it (and the cardio chapters are a
little strange), it's in tune with what I'd been doing. As I mentioned
in another post, most of my strength work started with my muscle
imbalances and what my PT prescribed for *me*, which was actually some
fairly standard stuff. My xt class, as it turned out, did some exercises
that were logical progressions from what PT started me on. He was
excited when I told him what I was doing there. At the very least, it
keeps me running and uninjured most of the time. But in that context,
we're dealing with a late 50s body with some muscle imbalances, weak
small muscles, etc. Gary's body shouldn't have those problems.;) We do
have some hs runners attend the class.
That said, I do feel like my running has improved as a result of it. I
improve each winter from the drills and continue the improvement during
the summer with my running and assorted drills, usually worked into my
running in a painless manner. My instructor commented to me this past
year how much my control over body has improved not just the last year,
but over the several years since I've taken his class. But the first
year I took the class was when I was just starting the PT after the 2nd
bout of AT. (1st PT treated symptoms, this one treated cause.)
The concept of running-specific strength drills is fairly common in
several places - web pages, runners on other forums, etc. The concept
being that when you run, only one foot is on ground at one time and legs
are usually in a split position - 1 forward, 1 back. The most common
drills seem to be lunges (we do them with varying length steps - med,
long, short - for about 40 ft/turnaround come back, then next length,
which means we're doing about 2x as many of the short ones as the med =
ouch), split squats, weighted step ups, single leg jumping the length of
mat (forward, then backward), one-legged squats, etc.
Plyometrics are usually the submax kinds (see Chou) and we do them in a
line, so keep moving or you get run over by the person behind you -
skipping, carioca / grapevine, sideways stuff, backwards, high knee
lifts, butt kicks, "sprint" - while we're snaking between the lines of
mats. (We have a 4 x 5 rectangular setup of gray gym-type mats lined up
on gymnastics floor exercise mat, which is the primary surface.) The
hips get a major workout when doing those "U" turns at each end. Usually
there's only a few people that can make it through all the jumps -
usually 20 / lap, 6 laps (forward and each side, first jumping onto
mats, then over them - or whatever you can do). I do about 1/2 of each
lap, and only jump onto the mats (risk/benefit of missing when trying to
go over isn't worth it). Lydiard's hill drills are submax forms of plyos
- and they definitely help.
The first year he tried Olympic-level lifting with us, but I know I had
problems with it (lack of flexibility in achilles, instability on the
gymnastics mat in bare feet, etc). So I at least have a tiny feeling for
free weights. That doesn't compare at all with the more running-specific
workouts. Some folks enjoy lifting as an activity, and that's fine. I
thought it might have some benefits and kinda wanted to learn, but I
just don't think it compares for usefulness to the more running oriented
workouts.
We also do a machine circuit for the last 34 min - 1 min per station, 20
sec to change - but the "change" time usually isn't enough to write our
weight or reps or speed or whatever down, get to the next station, and
get it set up for whatever, so we may only get 45-50 sec on some
stations - which is sometimes enough to reach almost-puke stage if you
dial up the speed enough. Because of the limited time to change, things
like hacky squats usually get done with one weight for everyone (maybe
25 lb on each end), which is easy with two legs, but a little much for
me with one leg to do more than about 1 rep. I think we have 2 or 3
strength stations (some upper, some lower body), then a cardio, which is
usually varying incline tm (0, 5, 10, 15, -3, stepmill). It's a great
fitness workout for general health, but I can't say that it's really
affected my running. The worthwhile part of the class is the first hour
with the barefoot drills on the gymnastics mats. While we do lots of
intense drills for short times, we don't do anything for more than about
10-20 min at one time - so you build some cardio endurance but not the
ability to do one thing for more than a few minutes.
I'd have to go back and look at Beck again to see some specifics, but
gotta get my smorgasbord of drinks together for tomorrow.
Elflord
> Daryl wrote:
>> It's interesting that the Stanford 800m to 5000 meter runners do a great
>> deal of off season weight lifting (not to gain any size, just arm strength,
>> specific leg strength, and core) and some strength training (weights) during
>> the season. It seems that their arms get tired at the end of a race and
>> that they run better with some strength training.
>
> Yeah, I've heard this claim too. One fast guy who beats both Donovan
> and me in some local races, Joe McVeigh, says something similar.
I can't believe that guy still beats me, because while he has a convincing
lead on peripheral factors like aerobic power to weight, I think I've the
upper hand on him in the more critical category of upper body strength.
> But again, it's also easy to find people who succeed without that
> stuff. There's apparently more than one way to skin a lemur.
>
> Do you know if the Stanford guys do the "low weight, high reps" you
> usually hear about, when people talk about wanting to strengthen
> without bulk? A few years ago I also read someone's argument that
> "really high weight, and just a few reps" was best for developing
> power without mass. I don't know much about this stuff, but if both
> of the foregoing are true then I guess there's something magic about
> moderate weights and 8-12 reps that stimulates growth in muscle size?
That's supposed to be the optimal range for growth anyway. Mechanisms
behind growth aren't that well understood, but it's generally believed
that fast twitch hypertrophy (muscle fibers getting thicker) requires
a combination of actual mechanical load (not to be confused, as many do, with
perceived effort or "pain"!) and volume. You won't get very much of that
from a set of 3 explosive reps, or a set of 20 on a light weight.
Cheers,
--
Elflord
Elflord
The interesting question is, what causes arm fatigue, and how can it be
prevented ? Everyone has to solve this problem somehow, but not everyone solves
it with upper body strength work. Some top runners do weights, some don't. All
of them do quite a lot of running.
Based on what I've seen of Paul Tergat, I believe I have enough upper body
strength to run a 2:04 marathon.
Cheers,
--
Elflord
Daryl
>> It's interesting that the Stanford 800m to 5000 meter runners do a great
>> deal of off season weight lifting (not to gain any size, just arm
>> strength,
>> specific leg strength, and core) and some strength training (weights)
>> during
>> the season. It seems that their arms get tired at the end of a race and
>> that they run better with some strength training. Their distance runners
>> do
>> pretty well in the NCAA's BTW.
>
> The interesting question is, what causes arm fatigue, and how can it be
> prevented ? Everyone has to solve this problem somehow, but not everyone
> solves
> it with upper body strength work. Some top runners do weights, some don't.
> All
> of them do quite a lot of running.
>
> Based on what I've seen of Paul Tergat, I believe I have enough upper body
> strength to run a 2:04 marathon.
Nice fallacy of individual instances. I know a guy that can break 3 hrs off
three months of training and little running the rest of the year. Does that
make it optimal?
Interesting that I point to a program (800m to 5000m) and you point to a
person that you don't know about (I have no idea what workouts Tergat does
for the MARATHON). There are real chances that some strengthening has
benefit and we would only really know is to use it over large numbers of
people. The fact is, many NCAA programs have substantial off season
strengthening
programs. Weights can't displace mileage but they can augment mileage if
the runner has the extra 2 hrs a week.
>
> Cheers,
> --
> Elflord
Gary
I'm not doing a tri this summer, but I plan on biking and swimming
along with running this summer. Would that effect what strength
training I should do? I think I'd rather do those exercises you were
talking about. Could you tell me what they are called or some of the
exercises those might be more benefitical than strength training with
weights. This summer I'll incorporate hills to help.
Gary
With Daniel is this in his Running Formula book? My friend gave me
creatine that is specifically for races and I did notice a difference
during the first mile (He runs 800) but after that it didn't help so
I'm scratching that.
Gary
KK I'll do that instead I usually fry up a pound of ground pork after
meets (I live on a farm) and it seems to help a lot. Mostly cooling
down and stretching.
Elflord
> Nice fallacy of individual instances.
I may have sounded dismissive with my smarty-pants comment, but it's more that
I'm skeptical. It's not that I strongly believe that it doesn't work. It's just
that I don't consider it a sure bet, whereas I do have confidence in mileage
and interval workouts.
> I know a guy that can break 3 hrs off
> three months of training and little running the rest of the year. Does that
> make it optimal?
No, I'd say there's an alternative explanation -- maybe he's talented enough to
run that fast with suboptimal training. But if he ran 2:04, it would be much
harder for me to make that argument.
So in that sense, we're somewhat in agreement in that if you take an athlete who
performs at a very high level (e.g. the NCAA athletes you mentioned), it's very
hard to argue that what they're doing is just plain dumb (because they wouldn't
survive at that level if that were the case)
> Interesting that I point to a program (800m to 5000m) and you point to a
> person that you don't know about (I have no idea what workouts Tergat does
> for the MARATHON).
I do. His book includes his training logs.
> There are real chances that some strengthening has
> benefit and we would only really know is to use it over large numbers of
> people.
I don't think our disagreement is as severe as I may have made it appear.
If I had extra time to devote to training and was already running a consistent
80mpw, I would certainly consider some sort of strength program. But I don't
consider it a sure bet the way I consider mileage and interval work to be.
Cheers,
--
Elflord
Elflord
> On May 11, 5:52 pm, Elflord <a...@aol.com> wrote:
>> On 2007-05-11, Gary <ghlu...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>>
>> > My friend recommend creatine because he said it helped your recovery
>> > is this true?
>>
>> I don't think it will help a whole lot. Strength athletes use it all the time,
>> endurance athletes don't.
>>
>> Whey protein might help, but not strictly necessary.
>>
>> Others have already made good suggestions in terms of resistance training --
>> the common theme (see posts by Dot and Daniel in this thread) is to focus on
>> sports-specific strengthening and eschew "traditional" weight training routines
>> (that are heavily biased towards bodybuilding)
>>
>> I agree with Chucky who says that strength training may or may not help, whereas
>> you can be damn sure that a good base will help. Intelligent use of strength
>> training may help, but it's much more important to work on endurance.
>>
>> btw, Paul Tergat is 6ft and 130lb, and also the worlds best cross country
>> runner before he got old and slow and did marathons.
>>
>> Cheers,
>> --
>> Elflord
>
> With Daniel is this in his Running Formula book? My friend gave me
Yes. I also agree with Chucky's comments -- in the off-season, probably best to
focus on base. The Daniels book does a good job at explaining how to put everything
together.
Cheers,
--
Elflord
Dot
>
> I'm not doing a tri this summer, but I plan on biking and swimming
> along with running this summer. Would that effect what strength
> training I should do? I think I'd rather do those exercises you were
> talking about. Could you tell me what they are called or some of the
> exercises those might be more benefitical than strength training with
> weights. This summer I'll incorporate hills to help.
Short answer: The main non-hill ones *I* use are lunges of various
flavors, split squat, single-leg balance squat, step ups, heel raises,
toe raises. Most of these are strength and proprioception. For power, I
generally depend on Lydiard-style hill workouts. (I already mentioned
some of the stuff we do in my xt class in an earlier post in this thread
on 5/11.)
I'm sticking this up here rather than down in the unabridged, where it
might get overlooked, since it has some nice video and frozen shots of
Lydiard's hill drills for those that are interested.
Lydiard hills (including video/slides illustrating form for hill drills):
http://www.lydiardfoundation.org/training/hilltrainingdvd.html
http://www.lydiardfoundation.org/training/drilltraining.html
http://www.fitnesssports.com/lyd_clinic_guide/lydpg11.html
But a person needs to have some basic strength before doing those hill
drills. The toe-focused ones can be nasty for folks with weak achilles.
Unabridged answer (be forewarned ;) ) since I'm clueless as to what
works for *you*, and you seem like you're searching for some basic
information, and could probably benefit since you seem to be interested
in putting your own program together or don't have a coach willing or
able to help (I'm assuming you have discussed this with your coach.).
I couldn't find the web pages I was looking for, so you'll get my
version plus a bunch of useful web pages with some useful information on
each. (Keep in mind I'm late 50s woman who likes to play on trails and
has had muscle imbalances, proprioception issues, etc. Much stems from
my original PT. However, I've noticed that things working for me today
also seem to be frequently mentioned by runners who may do some
running-specific strength training for their running, not just because
they like to do strength training. YMMV.)
I'm not gonna pretend to be able to give you any meaningful answers
about the biking and swimming affecting what strength training you do.
Just keep in mind that you've got one body that's going to be doing
running, running-specific strength training, as well as biking and
swimming. I'm assuming running is your focus and biking and swimming are
"just there," but I might be wrong. Your body has a limited capacity,
although at your age you may not realize it.;) It's about prioritizing
your workouts. You might progress through the summer emphasizing first
one thing then another or alternate weeks or whatever works.
Conceptually, I think of my workouts as providing strength, range of
motion, proprioception (usually works small muscles used for balance),
agility, and power - with running hilly trails for many hours as the
goal. YMMV. Some drills hit more than one area.
Lunges - be sure to keep back straight
Walking (hallways, gyms) - regular, long, and short strides work the
muscles differently (spread the burn around)
Standing (living-room size) - step forward leaving trailing leg in
place, then pull the leading leg back. Switch legs (or do reps on 1 leg
first). Also step to right, then back. Left then back. Step diagonally
to rear while twisting body, then back. You can do reps on one kind
before switching to the other directions.
Progressions - increase reps, use hand weights in hands (either dropped
by your side or in opposition to legs) or backpack with weights,
increase speed (with the standing ones, this could be made into small
jumps), close eyes (careful when you do this the first time unless you
do have good proprioception to start). We do them barefoot in class, in
shoes at home. Note the different positioning of the weights (2 hand
positions or back) make different workouts.
Split squat - at least the way I do it, is between a squat and lunge.
Basically, I do a walking lunge, but stop with weight over leading leg
and being sure to keep back straight, then just pump up and down like a
piston in that position. For me, it gives me the advantage of walking
lunge that I can do in living room or kitchen. It gives most of the
advantages of a single-legged balance squat, but does have some
additional stability (trailing leg) that allows me to work on larger
muscles rather than my challenged smaller balance muscles (that limit
how I work the big ones in a regular single-leg squat). That split
position of the legs is more running specific than 2-legged squats. All
of the progressions mentioned before can be done here.
One-legged balance squat. This doesn't go down as far as full-fledged
one-legged squats, although I suppose it could, if you're really good.
But for most conceivable running, I don't usually end up that far down
(see pics in web pages), so am happy with a wimpy version. But with the
balance squat, you hold the position partway down. Then reach leg
forward as far as you can go, gently touch the toe down, but do NOT
transfer weight (keep it on the standing leg), retract. This is done
reaching forward, backward, sideways, and diagonally backward. Yes, this
is good proprioception drill if you work on the balance stuff. Or you
could limit the amount of holding time and make it faster, making it
almost into a power workout. Progressions with weights can be used as
well as the closed-eye form.
Step ups. I never really liked the traditional step ups since there's
always that time to bring the leg back down, but they are most specific
than what we do in class. In class, we have about an 8-inch high mat (or
any kind of platform). We start with left leg on the mat, right leg to
the right of it. Then push off / jump with right leg, while left leg
goes to left side of mat (sideways jump to the left, in this case). Then
repeat to the right. We usually do about 50 reps or until we die,
whichever comes first. (We're usually doing these with hand weights and
likely have done a bunch of jumping onto or over mats - see my other
post - so, in general, something a little higher might be useful. The
8-in mats are just something convenient for us to use in grand scheme of
the way the class is set up.) The nice thing about this is there is no
down time. And of course you can get into almost a squat position on
each one, resulting in a longer time lifting. There are sooo many ways
to increase the burn.
Heel raises - we actually do these on a low (couple inches above floor)
balance beam (envision a perch with runners lined up on it facing a
higher balance beam (normal height) that we gently touch for balance.
This allows us to lower heels below horizontal (like on a hill) then
raise to our tippy toes - 30 times straight, 30 times pointed out, 30
times pointed in. (Most of us have found that if we do some during the
week, it doesn't burn as much on Saturday.) The balance beams provide a
firm surface (vs all the gym mats on most of the gym floor) and the
range of motion.
Toe raises - same position, but just heels are on the beam. 30 straight,
30 in, 30 out. I find this really helps with any shin issues. At home,
some people may have a setup where they lift buckets with their toes,
and this may be a good progression.
We also do some other toe/heel related stuff shortly after the run
warmup to be sure ankles are thoroughly warmed up before we get into the
workouts proper.
Single leg hops - usually across the mat (about 40 ft) one leg forward,
come back backwards same leg, then switch legs. This is obviously both
some basic strength and balance.
Core work - mostly lower abs (position ourselves on edge of mat rather
than on flat surface - seems to hit the abs closer to hips.
Upper body with hand weights. We do an assortment of arm exercises while
walking around the mat - somewhere around 50-100 reps of each drill. 6
drills (biceps, triceps, pecs, and not sure what the other 3 hit, but at
least one is very much like arm swing in running).
Diagonal stuff - diagonal jumping - usually puts some sponge blocks out
as targets for us to try to jump toward. Each "lap" has about 4-6 jumps
in each direction.
Some other diagonal work, esp. to help strength achilles
http://www.pponline.co.uk/encyc/0125b.htm
As you're aware, trail running (or start of large city marathon
apparently, from descriptions) doesn't involve running in a straight
line. The diagonal stuff is good for range of motion, jumping over
puddles, etc.
Lydiard hills (including video/slides illustrating form for hill drills):
http://www.lydiardfoundation.org/training/hilltrainingdvd.html
http://www.lydiardfoundation.org/training/drilltraining.html
http://www.fitnesssports.com/lyd_clinic_guide/lydpg11.html
Plyometrics: Don Chu's book is a good intro to them and designing a
program with them. I would not use anything except the submaximal plyos
unless you have someone knowledgeable to show you.
Miscellaneous (mostly submax plyos) - backward (many drills, including
skipping can be done forward or backward), sideways, carioca, footwork
drills, skipping, high knees, butt kicks, marching.
Terms you can google on: "functional strength", "running-specific
strength" or things along those lines. Here's some of main concepts of
functional strength:
http://www.coolrunning.com/engine/2/2_1/a-new-approach-to-strengt.shtml
" * Incorporate single leg training (e.g. one leg squat).
* Train predominantly in a standing position.
* Train in diagonal patterns – opposite hip to opposite shoulder –
just like we run.
* Emphasize the transverse (i.e. rotational) plane of motion – it
dominates running.
* Focus on “pulling,” not “stomping” power for improved stride length.
* Focus on foot-plant balance and stability to minimize “power
leaks” at foot plant.
* Focus on power and metabolic conditioning.
* Training contra-lateral timing to enhance running economy.
* Focus on initiating and controlling running from the core of the
body downward."
Here's a bunch of links that may provide some additional background,
form pictures, or alternate approaches.
one leg reasoning
http://www.pponline.co.uk/encyc/1006.htm
one-legged squats
http://www.beastskills.com/Pistol.htm
http://www.powerathletesmag.com/pages/pistols.htm
http://www.pponline.co.uk/encyc/single-leg-squat-exercises.html
some general running and strength stuff
http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m0NHG/is_3_17/ai_n13467253/pg_1
http://www.pponline.co.uk/encyc/strength-training-advice
http://www.pponline.co.uk/encyc/0013.htm
http://www.pponline.co.uk/encyc/step-ups.htm
http://www.pponline.co.uk/encyc/strength-endurance.html
http://www.pponline.co.uk/encyc/0904.htm
http://www.pponline.co.uk/encyc/0253.htm
designs
http://www.runningplanet.com/training/strength-training.html
http://jap.physiology.org/cgi/content/full/86/5/1527
I hope something in here is useful to you. Enjoy!
Dot
since I'm not sure where else to stick this - and other post was too long.
The studies I've seen seem to support the value of strength training of
some type for newer and/or younger (college age and younger) running
since they are still developing and it may help prevent injury. One
study took the "non-responders" to traditional training (can't remember
details of what the training was, but "non-responders" were the bottom
1/4 of the sample), and added some strength training to their program.
Most (don't remember %) responded to that. Don't remember what metrics
they were using as a "response."
More experienced runners may have less to gain, but I do know that both
Matt Carpenter (quads, hams) and Scott Jurek (upper body, back) do
strength of some sort, and I think weights. In many cases, it's what a
runner can support *in addition to* their running.
http://www.skyrunner.com/story/2005lt100.htm
http://www.eliterunning.com/features/54/
I know some question direct effects of strength training on running
times or other metrics, but many agree it seems to help with injury
prevention. If a person can spend more time training, then likely
they'll compete better. I can't believe so many colleges have strength
and conditioning coaches if there's no benefits. Granted some of that is
for other sports.
It wouldn't surprise me if a runner benefitted for a while, then not,
then benefits again after volume / intensity alone aren't enough. But
it's not enough to just go to the gym and do whatever. It needs to be
targetted to your weaknesses or a particular purpose.
We're all experiments of one, and no one can tell whether you'll benefit
until you try. And whether you benefit more from appropriate volume or
strength is another matter.
Robert Grumbine
Gary <ghl...@hotmail.com> wrote:
[snip of all preceeding]
>The staying healthy does not present a problem I eat and sleep
>regularly. I know I'm just scratching, but our cross country team is
>having a strong turnover and I'm the only returning top 5 runner from
>last season. (I usually run 3-5 on the team) and for next year I have
>to do a lot better to have a decent team and I want to do well. So
>will strength training off season help me at all?
Maybe yes, maybe no. If you had some particular reason to suspect
strength training would be good for you, then it'd be 'fair chance yes'.
For generic 'take a bunch of runners and have them do weight training'
experiments, the results are very equivocal. Some find yes (seems
to be more often ones involving girls rather than boys) and some no.
My take is that probably it's a matter of the guys already (generally)
having enough of the strength that gets trained to not benefit from
more such training, while the girls are more commonly in a position to
benefit. i.o.w. next trials need to pay more attention to where
people are starting from before they conclude useful or not.
But still no guarantees.
For your team, I'll suggest the best thing you could do is exert
some senior leadership and get a bunch of the guys to come out
running with you consistently over the summer. Don't worry about
speed or racing, but get out regularly. Since it's team-scoring,
even if you started winning every meet yourself, the team could
still be in trouble. Your 1 won't offset your 5th guy's 42. If
you can get him to 20 instead of 42 ... big plus. And much of
that difference is 'simply' getting a good mileage base in.
High school near me when I ran track was famous for doing well in
the region. A large part of it was not that they had outstanding
individuals (they didn't always), but that they _all_ entered fall
training with a solid summer mileage base.
--
Robert Grumbine http://www.radix.net/~bobg/ Science faqs and amateur activities notes and links.
Robert Grumbine
Gary <ghl...@hotmail.com> wrote:
[snip]
>I've tried bulking up a few years ago. I ate ice cream 3x a day for
>two straight weeks and didn't gain a pound. Someone else asked why I
>wanted to do strength training its because at districts and in other
>big races it gets a little muddy and I notice those with more mass to
>use tend to do better. I'm not looking to bulk up like a body builder
>I just want to get stronger.
Hmm. Back to anecdote land. One of the guys on my HS track
team went to XC nationals that fall (top 10 finish). One rainy,
ugly, day, we distance guys were in the weight room. I was easily
shoving around substantially more weight than he (and, indeed, anyone
except our two best half milers). Yet he was the guy at XC nationals,
and I was just the slow guy on our 4x800 relay team.
Balance matters more than unaided strength. You can practice
the balance by getting out and doing some trail running.
Charlie Pendejo
> I ate ice cream 3x a day for two straight weeks and didn't
> gain a pound.
On that front, I guarantee you'll improve with age.
We old farts have a few tricks up our sleeves, you know. Ability to
gain weight is one such superpower.
h squared
And if you've ever
> seen an elite cyclist with his shirt off, you know they're
> not exactly rippling Adonises in that sport, either. And
> it's precisely because muscles are weight that has to be
> dragged around.
a small aside to your post, a favorite picture of topless (male) cyclists..
http://www.xs4all.nl/~ewoud/cycling/curacao.jpg
teehee,
h
(thank you e.d.!)