Ultra Question
Anthony
Last year I ran my first 50 mile race and didn't feel I
needed any back to back long runs.
My longest training run was 52km...
This year I'm hoping to target a 100km race.
I don't really see myself going longer than that
52km run in one run. Do I need some type
of back to back? Or as Doug sometimes says
a "poor man's b2b"???
Thanks,
Anthony.
pithydoug
For the sake of simplicity and your experience, I'm going to assume
your long run miles and race miles are similar in footing and
elevation and skip the monolog that not all miles are the same. ;)
Not to answer a question with a question but how well did the long run
of 31 miles prepare you for 50 last year? Simply trying to see if
that proportion prepared you. If so then you may only need to do a
little more to prepare you for the 100k(62 miles). Once you get your
arms around that number you have a rough target for your b2b.
For the sake of mathematical simplicity let's assume that number is 44
miles. I used a proportion and then added a few more miles because the
12 extra miles is more in effort than just another 12 miles. Again
this is swag(guess).
Since you don't want to do this all in a single long run, how will
you break down the dividing into the two days? Is it (these are
percents days1/day2) 30/70, 50/50, 70/30, 80/20. I'd rule out the
30/70, the first day is not long enough.
The purpose of the b2b is to simulate the those last 15 -20 race day
miles when you are on tired legs with the b2b day2. I don't know how
to guess proportion you should choose. People have tried from 50/50
to 90/10 and said they worked. I have no idea if they tried a variety
of combinations and then concluded some proportion.
From her on I can only give you what worked for me. I used b2b's last
year for my 100k. This was an experiment of one as this was my first
100k. Lot's of 50's and 7 100's but no 100ks. I used the 80/20 and
found it worked in that I got to the finish line but last 15 was
harder than I wanted. So I have yet to decide whether to use a b2b
again or to up the percent or the total miles and hold the percent
constant. I'm not covering the other difficult question of how many
long runs and how frequent. One can do a thesis on those last two if
not the b2b in general.
Another variable just came to mind, what will you do that second day.
Will it be he same run/walk scenario( I'm assuming your not trying to
outright win and thus do some hiking) or just hike your ass off on
tired legs day 2? I like to hike the second day but please note, my
hikes are 300-500 ft per mile over 2 21/2 or 5 miles. They are are
MF's on tired legs.
In general I like all in one day - come as close to the race as
possible. Since I'm getting older and maybe lazier I'll continue using
the b2b and will try it again next July massaging some the numbers.
Maybe do some this winter. I don't know what your recovery rate is
like so I'll blindly suggest these long runs are every two weeks.
In essence I'm merely tossing around the variables for you to slice
and dice to see what may work for you. Maybe Dan, Steve Un-Common :),
British Ken or others may same have some other ideas.
-Doug
D Stumpus
"Anthony" <ant...@nospam.biu.ac.il> wrote
> Last year I ran my first 50 mile race and didn't feel I
> needed any back to back long runs.
> My longest training run was 52km...
>
> This year I'm hoping to target a 100km race.
> I don't really see myself going longer than that 52km run in one run. Do
> I need some type
> of back to back? Or as Doug sometimes says
> a "poor man's b2b"???
I don't have experience over 50 miles, but all the runners
I know who do 100k and longer do b2b runs.
I agree with Doug on the formula of about 65k being the
total length of the two runs.
B2b's aren't that big a deal, you go slow, don't push it. You're
tired starting out the second day, but with all the km's in the bank
from training it's not that big a deal. Maybe you could arrange to run with
some
slower runners on day 2. That's what several of my friends do. (That's how
I've gotten to run with some race winners :)
It sort of wipes out the training week, if you're like me you're not
going to be tempted to do any faster paced runs for 4-5 days.
Dot
FWIW, some people just use long runs (no b2b)(maybe 8+hrs) even for
100mi races. Some people never run over 3 hr, even for 100mi races. And
both examples I'm thinking of win 100mi races.
My first year, I used only long runs (7-8hrs), but was just building
volume at that level. I had a fun, but slow, run with an interesting
recovery (everything was fatigued - even toes and some DOMS) for a
couple weeks.
Second year, I also used only long runs (8-9 hr), but had been at this
frequency / volume (run 2 on/ 1off) for a year. Fair amount of up and
down (tops of 4000-5000ft, iirc). About early May, I was feeling almost
burnt out and race wasn't til August. Did a couple short races, and
things felt better again. I felt stronger and a little faster, and got
farther, but not far enough before I timed out. I was hardly sore the
next day at all and negligible DOMS.
This year, an assortment of things happened - including much warmer
weather than I've dealt with in recent years - and I ended up using both
long runs (marginally 8hr) and b2b (4-5hr each, 5/3hr, or something
along those lines) - more related to rest of life issues than to any
training principles. Not as much up and down, so I could work more on
downhill agilty. My volume was also down a bit compared with last year.
While I don't think I really struggled at any point, my legs didn't feel
as strong, I tweaked ITB near middle, and tried to avoid hobbling the
rest of the way, taking almost as long as the first year to go the same
distance. I was a little bit tired and sore the next day - somewhere
between 1st and 2nd years. I definitely felt the lack of some of my
winter xt and less hill strength (focused more on agility).
I run 3-4 hr enough, that a 4-5hr run doesn't do anything for me in
terms of finding out what shoes work, eating, drinking, whatever. 8-hr
runs do. However, the time frame when I'm doing these is April to June.
We may still get snow in the mountains (top of my hill) in April and
local trails may be muddy through May. IOW, the quality / specificity of
long runs before June may not be low. Running 8 hr in sub-freezing
temperatures doesn't tell me a whole lot about what works at 75F. So I'm
leaning toward whatever works in the first 6wks, then focusing on long
runs only in the last 6 wks, since that would have the weather most
similar to race. (8hr runs with pack get me somewhere in the 24-29mi
range, depending upon lots of things)
I can't do my first big hills until the snow in the winter playgrounds
starts deteriorating enough that road traffic up there drops off, and
that big road hill is safe to run. If summer comes too fast, the snow
melts and the tourists come, making the road unsafe again.
Dot
--
"Youן¿½ll never hear me say I beat the Peak. Iן¿½ve run up there pretty
fast, and that mountain doesnן¿½t care. Iן¿½ll never conquer the Peak." -
Matt Carpenter
pithydoug
> FWIW, some people just use long runs (no b2b)(maybe 8+hrs) even for
> 100mi races. Some people never run over 3 hr, even for 100mi races. And
> both examples I'm thinking of win 100mi races.
Or at least do very well. And to add more variables to the equation
there was one ultra guy that never ran more than 9 miles in a run with
one small caveat, he would do three of them a day for days on end. To
throw a loose lariat around this topic I'll add a single notion that
becomes even more apparent as the distance increases - KNOW THY
RECOIVERY.
Usually people have a few marathons under their belt and have some
rough idea about recovery which I feel goes hand in hand with staying
injury free. The rookie that gets caught up in running and wants to
jump from the 10k to the marathon with zero knowledge of recovery most
often ends up on the injured reserve list. Just as it should take
years to get to the marathon, one should be careful to slowly move up
in distance.
Anthony has some experience through 50 miles and is trying to refine
a training schedule to move up a small but significant notch. Let me
assure anyone following this thread that the move to 100k from a 50 is
MORE than 12 miles. It's is another increase that takes some
significant additional training.
> My first year, I used only long runs (7-8hrs), but was just building
> volume at that level. I had a fun, but slow, run with an interesting
> recovery (everything was fatigued - even toes and some DOMS) for a
> couple weeks.
Let me note here how the discussion moves to hours rather than
miles.
I must not have been paying close attention back then. No long run
should take a few weeks of recovery. If anything the race shoukld take
the most time to recover and not a single run. If the decision is that
8 hours is ideal, then the long runs should slowly bump the time/miles
every few weeks until you get your N 8 hour runs. Depending on one's
recoverability and base fitness point, this could or should take many
months. Each long run should not take more than few days of
sluggishness. Even the classic marathon program has on progressing 14,
16, ......20-22.
If one is moving from a road marathon to a trail 50k it a small jump
although not just 5 more miles. ;) If moving from the marathon to 50
miles, there is a lot of unknown territory and simply allowing 3 or 4
months, may not be enough time.
> Second year, I also used only long runs (8-9 hr), but had been at this
> frequency / volume (run 2 on/ 1off) for a year. Fair amount of up and
> down (tops of 4000-5000ft, iirc). About early May, I was feeling almost
> burnt out and race wasn't til August. Did a couple short races, and
> things felt better again. I felt stronger and a little faster, and got
> farther, but not far enough before I timed out. I was hardly sore the
> next day at all and negligible DOMS.
The brief DOMS post race slowed good training but maybe too much as
the early burn out was indicating. The old over-reaching vs. over
training. ;)
> This year, an assortment of things happened - including much warmer
> weather than I've dealt with in recent years - and I ended up using both
> long runs (marginally 8hr) and b2b (4-5hr each, 5/3hr, or something
> along those lines) - more related to rest of life issues than to any
> training principles.
And for Anthony or anyone, one can alternate a single long run with
b2b. Personally I did not go to the b2b until my long run passed 6
hours. I've been doing these for 20 years and can easily get to 6
hours and then decide to increase the long run or go a second day.
Lots of permutations for both variety and safety.
> I run 3-4 hr enough, that a 4-5hr run doesn't do anything for me in
> terms of finding out what shoes work, eating, drinking, whatever. 8-hr
> runs do.
And one the major reasons I prefer the single long run. The salt,
food, shoe issues don't rear their ugly heads on short runs. Since you
never run the race distance or time in training, there is always the
unknown last miles. Just like the last 10k in a marathon.
By the way, the proportion of long run to total distance basically
stops at 50 miles or 100k. You will very seldom find anyone going much
more that 35-40 mile single run for a 100 mile race. One may bump
total effort for a week but not the long run. It's a common mistake to
think the entire world must increase as the distance goes up.
-Doug
Jos Bergervoet
> ...
> I agree with Doug on the formula of about 65k being the
> total length of the two runs.
>
> B2b's aren't that big a deal, you go slow, don't push it. You're
> tired starting out the second day, but with all the km's in the bank
> from training it's not that big a deal.
But how often, and for how many months?
Since you asked for it in the other thread: I only run about 60km
weekly through the year, and 3 months before a Marathon increase
that to 80-100km/week (if no injuries). Weekly long runs are then
reaching 30km or more only in the last 2 months.
Now, coming to ultras: I can (just barely) imagine doing a b2b
40k/30k, just once every 2 weeks, to prepare for a 100k. But
would that just be for the last few months? And what would the
rest of the year require? Just a simple 35k run once every month?
The 100k event might hypothetically be the Winschoten run next
year, or maybe not. (But don't quote me on that!)
-- Jos
Dot
> On Oct 27, 1:45 am, Dot <AKTrailRun@#gmail.com> wrote:
>
>
>>Second year, I also used only long runs (8-9 hr), but had been at this
>>frequency / volume (run 2 on/ 1off) for a year. Fair amount of up and
>>down (tops of 4000-5000ft, iirc). About early May, I was feeling almost
>>burnt out and race wasn't til August. Did a couple short races, and
>>things felt better again. I felt stronger and a little faster, and got
>>farther, but not far enough before I timed out. I was hardly sore the
>>next day at all and negligible DOMS.
>
>
> The brief DOMS post race slowed good training but maybe too much as
> the early burn out was indicating. The old over-reaching vs. over
> training. ;)
Right. Because of the snow (dry March) conditions, I was able to start
doing my big hill runs much earlier than normal, so that provided a
longer buildup than normal. But yes, the negligible recovery time was
definitely a result of some DOMS after long runs. But what I also found,
is I could do some "fast" (for me) stuff on grass soccer fields within a
few days - flat, fast muscles were unused on all that up and down.
Should have added also that the pattern I was following was 3 months of
long runs - alternating long run and b2b every 2 wks - with longest long
run about 5 wks out and a 4-hr run 3 wks out. That results in 3 long
(8-hr) runs and 3 b2b. For me, I feel more comfortable with 4 long runs,
solidly in the 8-hr range, gravitating toward 9hr. Since I use a
microcycle close to 2wks (12-15days), the long run every 2 wks works
well, and I'm usually physically and mentally ready to go again by then.
Given the small window I have for snow-free runs in mountains before the
race, I think there's potential benefits in terms of adapting to summer
weather in doing the longest long run about 4 wks out. (I used 3.5 wks
this year to avoid holiday traffic on a suicide highway) I'd probably do
more b2b (6/3, maybe) early in the 3 months, leaving the 8-hr runs until
late May and June, rather than the alternating pattern that Trailrunner
(from California) had suggested. But that's strictly an artifact of what
I'm finding for me in Alaska weather and our trail / road situation.
I'll tweak again this year, but will depend on winter snow (quality of
winter running) and late-winter condition of mountain roads (big hills).
Dot
--
"You�ll never hear me say I beat the Peak. I�ve run up there pretty
fast, and that mountain doesn�t care. I�ll never conquer the Peak." -
Matt Carpenter
D Stumpus
"Jos Bergervoet" <Name.S...@Company.com> wrote
> Since you asked for it in the other thread: I only run about 60km
> weekly through the year, and 3 months before a Marathon increase
> that to 80-100km/week (if no injuries). Weekly long runs are then
> reaching 30km or more only in the last 2 months.
Woah, you're cutting it close on the marathon. If you can *average* 100-110
km/week, then you will be able to run close to your potential in the
marathon vis-a-vis your very strong 10k time. But 80-100k is really iffy,
that's probably why you've had trouble. I'd guess you have a low 2:50's in
you -- if you can get your mileage up there and stay healthy (you'll have to
make your normal runs a bit slower paced, but keep up the intensity of your
strong workouts). Simply adding an early morning 6-8k warmup (slow and
easy) run will get you there.
30km once a week is about right for marathons. When I was running 2:3x 20+
years ago, I usually ran only 30km on Sundays. It was fartleck in the
mountains with friends and we stopped and regrouped 5-6 times, so it wasn't
even continuous. But it worked! I also ran 150km/week to achieve my
potential in the marathon.
> Now, coming to ultras: I can (just barely) imagine doing a b2b
> 40k/30k, just once every 2 weeks, to prepare for a 100k.
> would that just be for the last few months? And what would the
> rest of the year require? Just a simple 35k run once every month?
Doug is the expert on longer ultras, I've "only" done 7 or 8 80k (50 mile)
races.
But typically, unless you're running over 160km/week, you just do one or two
back to back training runs spaced out 3-8 weeks before the event. I'm sure
Doug will have something to say about this.
My 100 mile race-winning friends run 200km/week and run 40-50 miles *every*
weekend when training for a 100. That's way beyond what us mere mortals can
handle.
I just do one long run (50k) 3 weeks before a 50 miler. I've done b2b only
for the hell of it when training with some elite friends who wanted some
slower company :).
> The 100k event might hypothetically be the Winschoten run next
> year, or maybe not. (But don't quote me on that!)
How about you reward yourself with that after your sub 3? ;-)
-- Dan
pithydoug
> "Jos Bergervoet" <Name.Surn...@Company.com> wrote
>
> > Now, coming to ultras: I can (just barely) imagine doing a b2b
> > 40k/30k, just once every 2 weeks, to prepare for a 100k.
> > would that just be for the last few months? And what would the
> > rest of the year require? Just a simple 35k run once every month?
>
> Doug is the expert on longer ultras, I've "only" done 7 or 8 80k (50 mile)
> races.
I don't know about expert but a fair amount of experience.
> But typically, unless you're running over 160km/week, you just do one or two
> back to back training runs spaced out 3-8 weeks before the event. I'm sure
> Doug will have something to say about this.
Dan is very close. First of all you need to have a solid base before
you delve into serious b2b's. How many of these you do depends on your
goal. just like some people do 1 20 for a marathon and others do 2-3.
If they are done "smartly," more will usually yield a better time.
What is most important is how you ramp-up from a reasonable base. As
you might expect the ramp-up pace is dictated by your recovery rate,
experience, etc. It's impossible to get specific without knowing tons
of history. Hopefully one can do a long run every two weeks and not
have to spend more than a few days in recovery mode. As you might
imagine some experienced runners can knock them out one a week. I'm in
the middle, i can go long for 3-4 weeks and then have to take an easy
week. These are run slow, it's base build up and time on your feet and
not pace. Speed is another day of the week.
For my general quideline, I Iike to have in the bank 2/3 3-4 hours
runs for a 50k, 2/3 5-6 hours runs
for 50 miles and 2/3 8-9 for a 100. I'm only addressing the long run
and not what you do during the week nor total miles/hours. Once you
dip into the mid week it's an entire plan, related but too broad for
this discussion.
For example we( a group of 6-15 preparing for marathons or ultras)
will spend every Saturday December to February doing a long run. These
are loaded with serious elevation. We start at 11 miles and work up to
many hours with some of us adding the Sunday run for the b2b later in
the cycle. There is a base distance and extra credit each week so
each person can map the long run to his/her pending race. These are
all age group race winners by invitation from me.
some of us prepare for a 50k in March and/or a 50 mile in April. They
are two or three weeks apart depending on calendar alignment. If two
weeks apart we use the 50k as a long run for the 50 mile. We will go
easy the first half of ther 50k and maybe work the second half. If
three weeks apart we will quasi race the first and then max for the
second.
> My 100 mile race-winning friends run 200km/week and run 40-50 miles *every*
> weekend when training for a 100. That's way beyond what us mere mortals can
> handle.
Very true and a credit to ability. OTOH, very few people doing this
amount a work last more than a few years. Many will rise up for a few
years and fade into the sunset.
> I just do one long run (50k) 3 weeks before a 50 miler. I've done b2b only
> for the hell of it when training with some elite friends who wanted some
> slower company :).
You can get by with only one because you pack a lot of quality into
your week. I can only do two quality workouts a week - old age.
Interesting dialog and I wonder what Anthony, who asked the original
question, has concluded?
-Doug
Anthony
"Jos Bergervoet" <Name.S...@Company.com> wrote in message
news:4AE726...@Company.com...
>D Stumpus wrote:
>
> Now, coming to ultras: I can (just barely) imagine doing a b2b
> 40k/30k, just once every 2 weeks, to prepare for a 100k. But
> would that just be for the last few months? And what would the
> rest of the year require? Just a simple 35k run once every month?
> The 100k event might hypothetically be the Winschoten run next
> year, or maybe not. (But don't quote me on that!)
Jos - have you run any ultras? I ran a few marathons,
last year a 60km and this year an 80km. The 100km
next year doesn't seem too daunting, but I wouldn't have
wanted to go there straight from a marathon...
Anthony.
Anthony
"D Stumpus" <dstumpu...@pobox.com> wrote in message
news:hc4e66$q2c$1...@news.eternal-september.org...
>
> "Anthony" <ant...@nospam.biu.ac.il> wrote
>
>> Last year I ran my first 50 mile race and didn't feel I
>> needed any back to back long runs.
>> My longest training run was 52km...
>>
>> This year I'm hoping to target a 100km race.
>> I don't really see myself going longer than that 52km run in one run. Do
>> I need some type
>> of back to back? Or as Doug sometimes says
>> a "poor man's b2b"???
>
> I don't have experience over 50 miles, but all the runners
> I know who do 100k and longer do b2b runs.
Yeah - that's the impression I'm getting...
>
> I agree with Doug on the formula of about 65k being the
> total length of the two runs.
>
> B2b's aren't that big a deal, you go slow, don't push it. You're
> tired starting out the second day, but with all the km's in the bank
> from training it's not that big a deal. Maybe you could arrange to run
> with some
> slower runners on day 2. That's what several of my friends do. (That's
> how I've gotten to run with some race winners :)
>
They're running slower on Day 2of the B2B than Day 1? Or it's a similar
pace - just slow for them cos of tired legs?
> It sort of wipes out the training week, if you're like me you're not
> going to be tempted to do any faster paced runs for 4-5 days.
I can live with that...
Thanks Dan,
Anthony.
Anthony
>"pithydoug" <dfr...@hvc.rr.com> wrote in message
>news:dbe55094-57e7-455e...@b18g2000vbl.googlegroups.com...
>On Oct 26, 5:27 am, "Anthony" <anth...@nospam.biu.ac.il> wrote:
>> For Doug, Dan and other ultra enthusiasts...
>>
>> Last year I ran my first 50 mile race and didn't feel I
>> needed any back to back long runs.
>> My longest training run was 52km...
>>
>> This year I'm hoping to target a 100km race.
> >I don't really see myself going longer than that
> >52km run in one run. Do I need some type
> >of back to back? Or as Doug sometimes says
> >a "poor man's b2b"???
>
>For the sake of simplicity and your experience, I'm going to assume
>your long run miles and race miles are similar in footing and
>elevation and skip the monolog that not all miles are the same. ;)
Yep. Good assumption.
>Not to answer a question with a question but how well did the long run
>of 31 miles prepare you for 50 last year? Simply trying to see if
>that proportion prepared you. If so then you may only need to do a
>little more to prepare you for the 100k(62 miles). Once you get your
>arms around that number you have a rough target for your b2b.
I think it was good. I had various injury issues, but didn't feel
that I had a problem finishing or with the distance.
>For the sake of mathematical simplicity let's assume that number is 44
>miles. I used a proportion and then added a few more miles because the
>12 extra miles is more in effort than just another 12 miles. Again
>this is swag(guess).
Also maybe you need to add a bit more, because B2B may be good
but it's still not doing all the miles in 1 run...
>Since you don't want to do this all in a single long run, how will
>you break down the dividing into the two days? Is it (these are
>percents days1/day2) 30/70, 50/50, 70/30, 80/20. I'd rule out the
>30/70, the first day is not long enough.
Longer first day sounds the best to me. If we're talking 70km over
2 days I would think 40/30, 45/25 or 50/20 are reasonable
options...
>The purpose of the b2b is to simulate the those last 15 -20 race day
>miles when you are on tired legs with the b2b day2. I don't know how
>to guess proportion you should choose. People have tried from 50/50
>to 90/10 and said they worked. I have no idea if they tried a variety
>of combinations and then concluded some proportion.
>From her on I can only give you what worked for me. I used b2b's last
>year for my 100k. This was an experiment of one as this was my first
>100k. Lot's of 50's and 7 100's but no 100ks. I used the 80/20 and
>found it worked in that I got to the finish line but last 15 was
>harder than I wanted. So I have yet to decide whether to use a b2b
>again or to up the percent or the total miles and hold the percent
>constant. I'm not covering the other difficult question of how many
>long runs and how frequent. One can do a thesis on those last two if
>not the b2b in general.
I assume you also ran B2Bs for your 100 milers?
>Another variable just came to mind, what will you do that second day.
>Will it be he same run/walk scenario( I'm assuming your not trying to
>outright win and thus do some hiking) or just hike your ass off on
>tired legs day 2? I like to hike the second day but please note, my
>hikes are 300-500 ft per mile over 2 21/2 or 5 miles. They are are
>MF's on tired legs.
I would plan to do the same as day 1 - i.e. mostly running, but
hiking the steep uphills.
>In general I like all in one day - come as close to the race as
>possible. Since I'm getting older and maybe lazier I'll continue using
>the b2b and will try it again next July massaging some the numbers.
>Maybe do some this winter. I don't know what your recovery rate is
>like so I'll blindly suggest these long runs are every two weeks.
I went with the long runs (single day) every 2 weeks last time.
Intermediate weeks were around 25km (16 miles). I think that I
will mix in the single long runs up to 50km with some B2B weeks
for my long run week, and still back off every 2nd week...
>In essence I'm merely tossing around the variables for you to slice
>and dice to see what may work for you. Maybe Dan, Steve Un-Common :),
>British Ken or others may same have some other ideas.
As always - invaluable information - Thanks!
Anthony.
pithydoug
> >"pithydoug" <dfre...@hvc.rr.com> wrote in message
> >news:dbe55094-57e7-455e...@b18g2000vbl.googlegroups.com...
> >On Oct 26, 5:27 am, "Anthony" <anth...@nospam.biu.ac.il> wrote:
> I assume you also ran B2Bs for your 100 milers?
Nope, never did. Only started to play with b2b last year. My long
runs for a 100 were 8-11.5 hours. I always felt and still do, the
single long run. It is more specific to the race and since I could do
them without an any injuries or long recoveries. I stayed with them as
i was finishing in 20-21 hours. My problems on race day were not with
my legs but caldron gut.
I plan to do another 100k this summer and will probably go back to
single long run and compare with last year's b2b.
-Doug
I2Run
>Nope, never did. Only started to play with b2b last year. My long
>runs for a 100 were 8-11.5 hours. I always felt and still do, the
>single long run. It is more specific to the race and since I could do
>them without an any injuries or long recoveries.
I can't even crack 8 hours for whole week most of the times.
I had a long chat at MHRM with an ultra runner in his early 30s.
He does b2b of 20+ miles as a preparation for his ultras though
he maxes out around 50s for the week. He wanted a BQ (<=3:10)
though he hadn't run a short distance race in a while and the last
marathon in 3:30s couple of years back. He did clock 3:08 change,
but his minimal preparation for ultras (50 mi+) really impressed me.
pithydoug
> doug wrote:
> >Nope, never did. Only started to play with b2b last year. My long
> >runs for a 100 were 8-11.5 hours. I always felt and still do, the
> >single long run. It is more specific to the race and since I could do
> >them without an any injuries or long recoveries.
>
> That is amazing to go for 8-11.5 hours on a single run,
> I can't even crack 8 hours for whole week most of the times.
Please understand I took about six months of gradual training to get
to that point and had few years of doing 5-6 hour runs for 50's plus a
few dozen marathons. The move to 8+ was just another brick in the
building. It's all about wanting to do something like this, and then
laying out a plan that will gradually get more and more time on your
feet. We can all remember when running 5 or 10 miles was a fantasy.
The name notion plus a few. ;)
Some people may jump to this type of running their first year or so
but most take a few years. The first step may be from the marathon to
the 50k. While It's only a small bump in miles, the transition to
trails(hills and footing) is the major change. If the 50k is a
positive experience they may opt to do another and for speed or move
up to the 50. Some do both. ;)
As Dan said, this is power running and not speed and does not
resemble marathon long runs.
The really good news is running strength does not fade as does speed.
From Dec to Feb I can easily ramp up to 5-6 hours from a 30-35 mile a
week rest cycle. Periodization if you like fancy terms. The value of
rest is so under appreciated with type A runners :)
>
> I had a long chat at MHRM with an ultra runner in his early 30s.
> He does b2b of 20+ miles as a preparation for his ultras though
> he maxes out around 50s for the week. He wanted a BQ (<=3:10)
> though he hadn't run a short distance race in a while and the last
> marathon in 3:30s couple of years back. He did clock 3:08 change,
> but his minimal preparation for ultras (50 mi+) really impressed me.
As I've said a few thousand times, ;) you need to leg strength to
hold pace. While b2b 20's is not your classic marathon program, but he
has been building power. The old base, power, speed, paradigm. Through
ultra training he has been building the strength, so he could run sub
3:10 by sprinkling in some speed.
I have a wide variety of people that run with me in the winter. Some
just want to get better at the 5/10k and do the weekly base run, while
others are training for spring marathons(Boston, Vermont City) and
still others, ultra races. We do loops or laps of miles. The extra
credit, additional miles are started early so we all finish at the
same time and go for breakfast. Lot's of discussion on training and
most of all, how is everyone handling these runs. I have been doing
these group runs for close to 15 years and the groupism keeps everyone
motivated. Knowing your going to be with a bunch of people in zero
degrees, gets people out the door.
-D
Jos Bergervoet
> "Jos Bergervoet" <Name.S...@Company.com> wrote in message
>>
>> 40k/30k, just once every 2 weeks, to prepare for a 100k. But
>> would that just be for the last few months? And what would the
>> rest of the year require? Just a simple 35k run once every month?
>> The 100k event might hypothetically be the Winschoten run next
>> year, or maybe not. (But don't quote me on that!)
>
> Jos - have you run any ultras? I ran a few marathons,
> last year a 60km and this year an 80km. The 100km
> next year doesn't seem too daunting, but I wouldn't have
> wanted to go there straight from a marathon...
No, I just wanted to understand what kind of superhuman training these
ultras would require. It seems clear now that to get a taste of it one
should try either a single training run of 60k, or a b2b 40k/30k.
Perhaps I will, sometime. It's just like long before doing an actual
marathon you try a 30k training run to see if you like it alt all.
-- Jos
steve common
>In essence I'm merely tossing around the variables for you to slice
>and dice to see what may work for you. Maybe Dan, Steve Un-Common :),
>British Ken or others may same have some other ideas.
I didn't do any big back-to-backs for any of the ultras. For the six-hour
road time trial I just used my base marathon training (max training run 3h
IIRC). So it's mainly just standard marathon training, but with some
adaption of long runs and long intervals at marathon pace to include
wearing full race kit (2 litre Camelbak or backpack with two camelbak
pouches and phone books to approximate race weight and to practice
continuous refuelling). More of the dialy runs were a little longer than
usual (1h40m instead of 1h) and done as much as possible off road (on
riverside trails in my case) to work on the "stabilising muscles" which
get used on uneven surfaces.
I also stick in a couple of longer-than-usual long runs, getting up to 4
hours max, when I know I'll be out there 5-6 hours or more.
If I really wanted to do it right for the mountain and dunes things, I'd
also do some sustained effort, day long mountain hikes with some downhill
running thrown in, but I'm an idle bugger and also am allergic to taking
the car to go to appropriate training sites :-P