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Final words on restraints(?)

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Daniel Rouse, Jr.

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May 16, 1995, 3:00:00 AM5/16/95
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OK, I hope this helps on the restraint issue, and maybe designers
will take note! :)

Why not just redesign over the shoulder restraints? Agreed
that the current design can cause head banging, but I do see a purpose
behind the shoulder harness as opposed to the ratcheting lap bar.

Ever ride the Force 10? Now granted, this ride (for me) was a
horrible experience, but I did notice the bar design. It was actually an
over the shoulder/over the head restraint that came down on your lap!
This type of bar prohibited any major movement (ie. getting up off your seat
or sliding forward) and still held the rider in by their thighs (although
in reality, the bar isn't necessary with all the G-forces holding you in).
The Force 10's bar is a single position bar, but I don't see a major problem
with making a ratcheting model of this bar for roller coasters.

Since lap bars tend to slide forward (even when ratcheted, they have
some play) and overhead restraints tend to slide upward, the overhead restraint
seems to be the better choice on loopers/corkscrews/multi-element coasters.
If a lap bar slides forward, then you run the risk of falling out (on a
boomerang, for instance, which does not always have enough force to keep you
in). If a shoulder bar (especially of the Force 10 design) slides up, then
you legs would go up into the bar, but you would still stay in... and your
shoulders would not be affected one bit. The risk of falling out with
overhead restraints in almost none (barring, of course, lock mechanism failure,
in which case neither restraint on any type of coaster would work).

I am speaking from experiences when I have been on *non-loopers* and
have been in-between ratchet positions. I have wound up actually leaving my
seat about 3-4 inches (maybe more?) on dips and drops alone! I'm sorry, but
I'm not a daredevil when it comes to riding coasters... and when I pull down
the restraint, it better be safe. I would hate to be in danger of falling out
of a multi-element coaster with only a lap bar because I was in between
ratchets and the bar wasn't secure. At least my legs would still contact the
bar (and I would still be safely inside) if I lifted off my seat on a
multi-element coaster.

And, if multi-elements/corkscrew coasters start only having lap bars,
then they had better be hydraulic with a redundant ratchet lock so the bar
doesn't move at all (like the Pirate, Top Spin, Looping Starship). Actually
the Force 10 style overhead bar or the hydro & ratchet lap bar would work for
any ride... designer's choice wouldn't it?

Just my 2 cents worth...
--
Signed,

Daniel W. Rouse, Jr.
Computer Science/Instrumental Music Double-Major
California State Polytechnic University, Pomona
E-mail address: dwr...@csupomona.edu

Dave Althoff

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May 17, 1995, 3:00:00 AM5/17/95
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Final words? Not a chance...Dave is around 8-)!


Daniel Rouse, Jr. has some comments on coaster restraints...

"Why not just redesign over the shoulder restraints? Agreed that the
current design can cause head banging, but I do see a purpose behind the
shoulder harness as opposed to the ratcheting lap bar."

and he continues...

"Ever ride the Force 10?" followed by a description of the bar used on that
ride. It's a lap bar mounted on a pair of supports which extend over the
shoulders of the center passenger.

Yes, I have ridden the Force 10. It was a mistake, but that has nothing to
do with the restraint, which I believe is actually a ratchet mechanism. In
fact, the Force 10 has a pair of bars which may or may not extend over your
shoulders (depending on whether you sit in the center or not). The purpose
of the overhead bars seems to have more to do with decorative concerns and
with providing a method for attaching the lap bar to a pivot located at the
back of the car than anything else. I submit that a rider's experience
with that bar mechanism on the Force-10 would not be typical of an
experience with that system on, say, an Arrow Corkscrew.

Like Daniel, I like the "quality" of restraint provided by the drop-bar,
since it drops down onto the rider's lap instead of forward, which means it
is more likely to 'pin' a smaller rider. Unlike Mr. Rouse, I don't think
it is necessary or appropriate for the bar to extend over the rider's
shoulders. In fact, I have suggested this before for the inverted coaster,
though there is no reason it wouldn't work with a Corkscrew.

I ask, have you ever ridden a Sky Glider...one of those chairlift-style sky
rides as at Americana or, until recently, at Geauga Lake? On that ride,
there is a lap bar which is supported by a pair of arms which, when pulled
down, roughly follow the top of the molded seat, allowing a lap bar to lay
across the legs. A comparable system is used on the Huss Break-Dance.
These are single-position bars, but by equipping them with the sort of
hydraulic/ratchet mechanism used on the early Arrow Corkscrews, they could
be infinitely adjustable between their extreme positions. In the case of
an inverted coaster, I would combine the bar with a between-the-legs strap
of the style used by B&M to absolutely prevent an unexpected exit from the
seat. But on a Corkscrew-type train, that would not be necessary. In
fact, such a system could possibly be retrofitted to the existing
multi-element bar mechanism. In any case, I think that in at least one
respect, coaster riders ought to be treated like Interstate highways:
their shoulders should be clear 8-)

Personally, I don't worry about having a few inches of play between myself
and the bar, as on rides like Mean Streak. I'm big enough that it would
take a lot of effort for me to exit the car even with several inches of
space...and it sure beats the alternative that I experienced on the Kings
Island Racer last spring (suffice it to say that I carry a safety belt with
me for that ride...8-( ) when the bar comes down too far. And I can state
with some certainty that you're not going to fall out of a seat on a
multi-element looper unless there is a significant air-time element in
addition to the loops...the forces through the loops are generally more
than sufficient to keep my 220# frame firmly in its seat. Maybe we Ohioans
are just more into getting tossed around on our coasters than you
Californians (there ARE regional differences in amusement parks!). Maybe
it's just me.

I should also mention that the older Arrow multi-element cars use an
ingenious hydraulic mechanism with a redundant ratchet-pawl latch. These
are the old cars with the silent bars; I'm not so sure about the newer
ones. Instead of using an accumulator and pump, the piston shaft extends
all the way through the cylinder (=constant cylinder volume regardless of
piston position = no accumulator needed), and hydraulic pressure is
provided by the rider rather than a pump. Take a look at Thomas Humphries'
United States Patent #4,005,877, "Vehicle Passenger Restraint Mechanism,"
assigned to the Arrow Development Co., Inc. of Mountain View, California,
on February 1, 1977. It's one of those things that you look at and say,
"Now why didn't I think of that...!". Also, recall that in 1977, your
average park guest had never seen a roller coaster go upside down. I
believe we got stuck with over-the-shoulder restraints mostly because parks
and manufacturers (Schwarzkopf and Hopkins excepted) thought that people
wouldn't ride without them. I think even the non-enthusiast coaster-riding
public is a little more sophisticated these days on that score.

--Dave Althoff, Jr.
(not willing to give over-the-shoulder restraints the last word 8-) )
--
/-\ _ _ __
/XXX\ /X\ /X\_ _ /XX\_ _ _ _____
/XXXXX\ /XXX\ _/XXXX\_ /X\ /XXXXX\ (NO ADMITTANCE:) /XXXXX
_/XXXXXXX\__/XXXXX\/XXXXXXXX\_/XXX\_/XXXXXXX\(.sig testing underway!!)

KFP10466

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May 17, 1995, 3:00:00 AM5/17/95
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Well, I have to give my $0.02 worth on restraints. It appears to be of
the popular opinion that over the shoulder restraints are unnessary on
multi-element coasters. It has been stated many times in this newsgroup
that these restraints are overkill. I for one disagree. While the
average enthusiast will properly adjust a lap bar, many "bad apples"
won't. I've seen people on non-inversion coasters put the lap bar the
farthest forward an attempt to stand up. I can see some dope on a lap-bar
restrained, multi-element coaster attampting to stand up and end up dead.

OK, OK this reinforces TPM and y'all can flame me up and down the 'net if
you like, but please remember, isn't always the idiots of the world that
keep all of us from having fun????
kfp1...@aol.com
"i coast, therefore i am"
While riding the Internet, please keep hands,arms and legs inside the car
at all times.
Iron Dragon- The "Diet Rite" of Rollercoasters ( lots fizzle but no fizz )

Dave Althoff

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May 18, 1995, 3:00:00 AM5/18/95
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KFP10466 (kfp1...@aol.com) wrote:
: Well, I have to give my $0.02 worth on restraints. It appears to be of

: the popular opinion that over the shoulder restraints are unnessary on
: multi-element coasters. It has been stated many times in this newsgroup
: that these restraints are overkill. I for one disagree. While the
: average enthusiast will properly adjust a lap bar, many "bad apples"
: won't. I've seen people on non-inversion coasters put the lap bar the
: farthest forward an attempt to stand up. I can see some dope on a lap-bar
: restrained, multi-element coaster attampting to stand up and end up dead.

Been there, done that...or something comparable, anyway. Not me, mind
you, some mindless @#$! on the Sooperdooperlooper at Hersheypark, I
believe. Unfortunately, the @#$! (or his estate; I don't recall whether
or not he survived) won the court case; though in Ohio he would be guilty
of a criminal offense in violation of ORC 1711.551. On the other hand, as
can be demonstrated on a large number of rides, the forces that will eject
a rider aren't going to come in the loops...they will be on the helii,
curves, and hill peaks, elements which can be found on plenty of
non-looping coasters.

If designers wanted to make rides 100% @$$#*!{-proof, they probably could;
and maybe that's SFMM's idea with the Revolution. The key here is, to
what degree MUST that be done. And this comes back to the problem of who
is responsible for the rider's safety as regards that rider's behavior.
Unfortunately, I don't have a good answer to that question. Parks can
post signs, warn riders, get laws like ORC 1711.551 passed, scream their
heads off at rule violators, and it doesn't keep certain people from being
@$${$ on the rides. At what point does the park simply have to cover its
behind and let evolution take its course (as it were)? There has to be
some point, some limit, to how much you nail the rider into the train.
Sure, you could equip all coasters with 5-point harnesses, lap bars,
shoulder bars, headrests, dividers, and anything else you can think of.
Sometimes I'm almost suprised PKI hasn't already done it to their Racer
(another long, sad story...). But if you do that, what does it do to the
ride? Parks must simply mitigate risk to a reasonable level, and rely on
patron behavior to prevent injuries and fatalities. If parks had to make
all rides as nearly 100% risk free as possible, rides like the CP Blue
Streak and KW JAck Rabbit could not operate. And remaining coasters would
likely not be worth riding.

It sounds callous, but when you consider just how safe coasters (in fact,
all amusement rides) really are, I don't think it is at all unreasonable.
Sorry, but in my mind, if you are jumping out of a moving roller coaster
and get flung, run over, clobbered, or otherwise seriously injured or
killed, you probably deserved it. And the park ought to be able to sue
you for the bad press, not the other way around.

Naturally, my thoughts are completely opposite where true negligence or
ride failure are involved, but that's another discussion entirely.

--Dave Althoff, Jr.

Donald Gladstone

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May 18, 1995, 3:00:00 AM5/18/95
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KFP10466 (kfp1...@aol.com) wrote:
: Well, I have to give my $0.02 worth on restraints. It appears to be of
: the popular opinion that over the shoulder restraints are unnessary on
: multi-element coasters. It has been stated many times in this newsgroup
: that these restraints are overkill. I for one disagree. While the
: average enthusiast will properly adjust a lap bar, many "bad apples"
: won't. I've seen people on non-inversion coasters put the lap bar the
: farthest forward an attempt to stand up. I can see some dope on a lap-bar
: restrained, multi-element coaster attampting to stand up and end up dead.

: OK, OK this reinforces TPM and y'all can flame me up and down the 'net if


: you like, but please remember, isn't always the idiots of the world that
: keep all of us from having fun????

Why don't they just follow Arrow's mega-coaster idea? Use a lap bar and
seat belts. They are the prefect combination and nothing can go wrong.

PGA Michael

Norman H. Samuelson

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May 19, 1995, 3:00:00 AM5/19/95
to kfp1...@aol.com
kfp1...@aol.com (KFP10466) wrote:
>Well, I have to give my $0.02 worth on restraints. It appears to be of
>the popular opinion that over the shoulder restraints are unnessary on
>multi-element coasters. It has been stated many times in this newsgroup
>that these restraints are overkill. I for one disagree. While the
>average enthusiast will properly adjust a lap bar, many "bad apples"
>won't. I've seen people on non-inversion coasters put the lap bar the
>farthest forward an attempt to stand up. I can see some dope on a lap-bar
>restrained, multi-element coaster attampting to stand up and end up dead.
>
>OK, OK this reinforces TPM and y'all can flame me up and down the 'net if
>you like, but please remember, isn't always the idiots of the world that
>keep all of us from having fun????
>kfp1...@aol.com
>"i coast, therefore i am"
>While riding the Internet, please keep hands,arms and legs inside the car
>at all times.
>Iron Dragon- The "Diet Rite" of Rollercoasters ( lots fizzle but no fizz )

It would be nice if there were some way to outlaw stupidity, but then who
would we have left to run for political office.

The last thing I want to see is some stupid idiot invoke natural selection
on any roller coaster. Whatever restraints are included MUST be idiot proof,
becase there truly is a never ending supply of them.

But...

There has got to be a better way to make roller coasters that go upside down
than to put in those HORRIBLE horse collars. Between the good minds of the
folks on this list, and those at the companies that design and build coasters,
we should be able to come up with a restraint system that will work quickly
and securely without doing damage to the brains of those of us who love them
so much.

- Norm -

Deborah Ansley

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May 19, 1995, 3:00:00 AM5/19/95
to
Bravo, to Dave! I don't think anyone could have said it better. We need
some common sense in this country when it comes to lawsuits before the
whole country is ruined by this sad state of affairs. Unfourtunately
over 50% of our Congress in DC are lawyers and Its has been this way
always, except for one Congress earlier in the century!

Ted Ansley **Rollercoaster Fan<atic>**
SGA...@prodigy.com


Donald Gladstone

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May 19, 1995, 3:00:00 AM5/19/95
to
Norman H. Samuelson (n...@llnl.gov) wrote:

: But...

I think I've said this before, but the same restraints as Arrow's
mega-coasters are perfect; a lap bar and a seatbelt. If the seatbelts
lock in, nothing can go wrong here.

PGA Michael

John Nagy

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May 20, 1995, 3:00:00 AM5/20/95
to
Why don't they just follow Arrow's mega-coaster idea? Use a lap bar and

>seat belts. They are the prefect combination and nothing can go wrong.

>
> PGA Michael


Anton Schwarzkopf has design some great rides and I can say that
his are some of the best. But they don't do CORKSCREWS, BOOMERANGS, BAT
WINGS, SIDEWINDERS or HEART LINE spins. Have you ever sat on a swing
sideways and swung side to side. Their is more of a since of security
if their is something to hang on to. THE MINDBENDER at Fantasyland in
Edmonton Alberta Canada, DESPERADO at Buffalo Bills in Nevada, DRACEN
FIRE at BGW, and RAPTOR at Cedar Point, all are GREAT rides. But think
of the effects on riders. Im sorry, I didn't mean to fall over into
your lap, or smash your face with my elbow. Just wasn't strong enough
to stand those forces by the ride. Guess I didn't read the warning
sign. Actually I am strong enough to hold up to most coaster extremes,
and love coasters that way. But not every BODY can.

Dwayne L. Allen
_________
/_CYCLONE/_
/__RACER_/

John Nagy

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May 20, 1995, 3:00:00 AM5/20/95
to
In <3pec55$q...@newsbf02.news.46466644aol.com> kfp1...@aol.com
(KFP10466) writes:
>

>that these restraints are overkill. I for one disagree. While the
>average enthusiast will properly adjust a lap bar, many "bad apples"
>won't. I've seen people on non-inversion coasters put the lap bar the
>farthest forward an attempt to stand up. I can see some dope on a
lap-bar
>restrained, multi-element coaster attampting to stand up and end up
dead.
>
>OK, OK this reinforces TPM and y'all can flame me up and down the 'net
if
>you like, but please remember, isn't always the idiots of the world
that
>keep all of us from having fun????

I think I was about 5 or 6 years old, I was getting on the
carousel with my dad at THE PIKE. I heard the chain lift start for
THE CYCLONE RACER, so I naturally turn around towards the coaster to
watch the ride. To my surprize, their was this man standing up as the
trains were reaching the top. I said "daddy he's going to fall out".
My Dad put his arms around my head so I couldn't see. As it turns out,
the man was thrown from the train, bounced off some of the coaster's
structure, but survived. How could anyone be that stupid? I found out
later that the man was so intoxicated, that besides a bunch of broken
bones, he's probably around today telling his Grandchildren.

John Nagy

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May 21, 1995, 3:00:00 AM5/21/95
to

>
>I think I've said this before, but the same restraints as Arrow's
>mega-coasters are perfect; a lap bar and a seatbelt. If the seatbelts
>lock in, nothing can go wrong here.
>
> PGA Michael
>

And I'll say it again. Anton Schwarzkopf loopers and Arrow loopers
do different things. The inversion elements are NOT the same. I wish I
could find a better way than the over the top restraints just to keep
people from crying about it all the time. The new mega-steels like
MAGNUM and DESPERADO are what they are. High intensity NON LOOPERS.

Mr Twister

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May 23, 1995, 3:00:00 AM5/23/95
to
In article <3pejgl$o...@acme.freenet.columbus.oh.us>,
dal...@freenet.columbus.oh.us says...

>
>KFP10466 (kfp1...@aol.com) wrote:
>: Well, I have to give my $0.02 worth on restraints. It appears to be
of
>: the popular opinion that over the shoulder restraints are unnessary on
>: multi-element coasters. It has been stated many times in this
newsgroup
>: that these restraints are overkill. I for one disagree. While the
>: average enthusiast will properly adjust a lap bar, many "bad apples"
>: won't. I've seen people on non-inversion coasters put the lap bar the
>: farthest forward an attempt to stand up. I can see some dope on a
lap-bar
>: restrained, multi-element coaster attampting to stand up and end up
dead.
>
>--
> /-\ _ _ __
> /XXX\ /X\ /X\_ _ /XX\_ _ _ _____
> /XXXXX\ /XXX\ _/XXXX\_ /X\ /XXXXX\ (NO ADMITTANCE:) /XXXXX
>_/XXXXXXX\__/XXXXX\/XXXXXXXX\_/XXX\_/XXXXXXX\(.sig testing underway!!)

I love looping coasters with just the lap bar. But I have notest that
most arrow coasters need them from the lack of G-forces examples: The
GASM in SFGA, anaconda Kings D, B Gardens D Fire. Then there are some
then don't need them at all. Hersey Park SDLooper, SFMM Rev, B Gardens
BBW , etc. Just a dream of mine: to ride the magnium with a fixed level
lap bar like you would find on a wood coaster. Less thigh burses and more
air time.


Bret

P.S. Try the Magnium in the 3rd from the front
seat. I know that alot of people know
about it. I'm sure some dosn't thou.


Robert Cunning

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May 25, 1995, 3:00:00 AM5/25/95
to

While the
>: average enthusiast will properly adjust a lap bar, many "bad apples"
>: won't. I've seen people on non-inversion coasters put the lap bar the
>: farthest forward an attempt to stand up. I can see some dope on a lap-bar
>: restrained, multi-element coaster attampting to stand up and end up dead.

>: OK, OK this reinforces TPM and y'all can flame me up and down the 'net if


>: you like, but please remember, isn't always the idiots of the world that
>: keep all of us from having fun????

I have to agree with this. I hate TPM as much as the next guy, but it's my
experience that many people are too stupid for their own good. For example...
When I was a kid and lived in NY, we would travel to Rocky Glen about once or
twice a year. It was a good "kid" park and I was the oldest of six and I was
only 7 or 8. I remember being there one day and seeing a girl riding on the
FRONT of the roller coaster. Literally sitting on the front of the train. I
don't know how she survived (granted it was a small ride, but if I remember
right it was pretty fast and rough) but I remember thinking even as a kid that
that was a stupid thing to do, especially since you got some good air time at
the top of the second hill if you were in the front seat.

We're all going to have to face it. While most of us realize you can still
have fun on a ride while following the rules (although I think the current
trend of seatbelts on Carousels is a little much and it's a little annoying
that I have to take my tiny, gold ball earring out on some rides) many people
think the rules are only there to keep us from having as much fun as we could
be having. Therefore, these people do stupid things and either get themselves
or others hurt or killed.

BTW - I have never had a real problem with headbanging on rides with over the
shoulder restraints. In fact the only ride that I've ever had a headbanging
problem with is the Texas Cyclone and those idiotic headrests that wrap around
the sides of your head.

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