Holiday World commentary
Jeremy
posting links here because on the one hand I don't just want to dump
my web link here and then disappear from rec.r-c the way some people
do, but I also think if you're going to take the time to read the full
report it's not too much to ask for one click so you can also get the
photographic content and formatting that would be missing if I copied
and pasted. So I think what I'll do is keep the full article on my
website, but then post a key discussion question I bring up in the
article here, so that way someone might not even need to read my
article to be able to post a reply.
http://www.rollercoasterphilosophy.com/2009/holiday-world/
So my question is: am I the only one that thinks Holiday World is a
little bit overrated? They lead the market in some areas: great
customer relations, some good coasters and waterslides, several free
items that would otherwise be mark-up in other parks, but they get
away seemingly unnoticed with a lot of other problems, including a
weak/uneven collection of flat rides, a poorly constructed
infrastructure that doesn't manage crowds very well (i.e. all the big
attractions are on the left side of the park, the waterpark has all
the older, low-capacity rides at the entrance and newer high-capacity
rides at the back, the Thanksgiving area is a giant cul-de-sac), and a
generally bland park aesthetic consisting of basic, boxy structures
decorated with painted particle board that lacks any attempts at
themeing (they can't really take the "we're a charming small park"
defense anymore either because most of the park has been built in the
past few years and they've constantly been chasing after record-
breaking rides).
Hadesbound
> So my question is: am I the only one that thinks Holiday World is a
> little bit overrated?
Yes, you are the only one.
mamoosh
> So my question is: am I the only one that thinks Holiday World is a
> little bit overrated?
You're not the only one, but you're definitely in the minority. I live
in Los Angeles and I happily spend the money for a roundtrip flight,
car, hotels, etc so I can visit Holiday World each year. In fact I've
visited the park at least once a year since 1999. I haven't been to my
local parks (SFMM, Knotts, Disney, etc) in about five years and it
takes considerably less time and money to get to them.
Overrated? If Holiday World is the posterchild for "overrated" then I
wish every park strove to be equally overrated, lol.
BaSSiStiSt
rated. Throw in Splashin Safari (which is a damn good water park, IMO)
and it gets closer. Throw a wood coaster lover in the mix, and then
the ratings become understandable.
Andrew Brawley
>So my question is: am I the only one that thinks Holiday World is a
>little bit overrated?
Well, "over rated" is a very subjective term that is difficult to quantify. It
requires one to balance the average experience of everyone weighing in with the
average expectations of the same. It's at best a very dicey concept to define. What
I imagine you'll find to be true for many of us here is that we find HW to be one of
those rare wonderful things that is consistently greater than the sum of its parts.
(Though I by no means intend to speak for everyone.) What they have tends to be of
great quality, and if it seems unevenly dispersed, one need only to look at the
evolution of the park to find ample justification. And the way it keeps growing
without loosing the intimacy of the experience is what keeps people coming back over
and over. YMMV.
-Drew
Jeremy
And perhaps overrated wasn't the best term to use. "Flawed" might be a
bit better. Those areas that they excel at by themselves are capable
of making one of the best amusement park destinations in the country,
however I think for many people they become cathartic and make it too
easy to overlook things that would be criticized if they were any
other park. I'm not going to list those things out again since I've
already spent a couple days detailing them for my article I linked
above. I would argue a bit with your last point; I think they have
lost a bit of intimacy of the experience as they've grown over the
past half-decade, not that there still isn't plenty left. The Kochs
still were there to greet us at the front gate (at least on my visit)
so I can't fault them for that, but some of the major expansions of
recent years have started to turn the place from quaint homegrown park
into a large-scale destination park, especially stuff like the
Pilgrim’s Plunge expansion area just seemed sort of bland, expensive
looking but a lot of concrete, woodchip landscaping and flat, mono-
color walls.
Joe Schwartz
> So my question is: am I the only one that thinks Holiday World is a
> little bit overrated?
My only complaint about Holiday World is that SRM (or whatever they're
calling it these days) is the only way to get night rides on the
coasters. I wish they'd stay open later than 9:30 PM on regular
operating days.
GodsOnSafari
Gotta go in August. Usually they have a few 10PM closings then.
GodsOnSafari
> Back with another park write-up.
<snip>
I've generally felt that Holiday World gets a pass on a lot of stuff
because they have really great wood coasters, and gets credit where
its probably not due on the same basis. I think the "cleanest park"
award is largely a ceremonial one, for instance. I think their water
park is likely overrated because its one of the very few coaster
enthusiasts actually go to. But, like a lot of flawed parks (Cedar
Point comes to mind for me), the attractions make up for it. I can go,
ride nothing but Voyage all day, and leave, and yet I still feel like
I had a transcendent experience. I can't think of another park like
that.
Steelforce
I think that Holiday World is a modern traditional park. and i think
they fully succeed. I like the little touches that the Kochs put into
the park to subtly remind you that you're not in a major corporate
park ie: food prices and personal service. yet, they give you modern
rides, and trained personnel that provide competent operation of the
rides. If I was to have a single complaint it is that they lack a good
steel coaster. (But, i'm sure they're working on that) The free stuff
is never free, it's paid for at the gate. I find that not having to
pay for sodas or sunscreen or parking make for a more enjoyable day
and not having to wait in a line every time you're thirsty make the
park easier to enjoy. having the "big" rides at the back of the park
is simply smart. if you want people to see the park and pass by every
opportunity for a sale of food, games, or merchandise you need
something to get people to travel throughout the park.
I wish Holiday World was Closer to me, or I had the $ to go more often
SAM
Andrew Hartman
the place you criticize the least?
I know that if I took every ride and every park I went to and pulled
it apart and analyzed it to death like you do with all these reports I
wouldn't have nearly as much fun at them or on them as I do. I can see
where you get all the generic things from and the lack of elaborate
theming, but then again what do you expect from a family park in the
middle of nowhere? They arent going to spend tons and tons of money
like Disney or something similar, I guess you have to come in knowing
what to expect.
I don't know what it is about the place, but something just feels
right there. It lacks a good steel coaster, the flats are mediocre,
and the water rides are mediocre, BUT the water park has an excellent
selection (and I actually have been to other water parks and this
doesn't include next years addition either), you dont have to worry
about parking, getting thirsty or even bringing sunscreen, the food is
cheap and, oh yeah, there is that trio of coasters that can't be beat!
Holiday World isn't my favorite park but its high on my list despite
the fact if you look at it on paper and take the coasters and the
water park away it really shouldnt be.
-Andrew Hartman
mamoosh
> Hey Jeremy, I am just curious... what is your favorite park? You know,
> the place you criticize the least?
Andrew - his last "critical analysis" was in praise of The Beast. Does
that tell you anything?
Jeremy
wouldn't mind changing if I could). I would even probably rate Indiana
Beach slightly higher than Holiday World, only being slightly outdone
in the quality of coasters, but even then they're not far behind. Just
to be clear, Holiday World is firmly in my top ten favorite parks in
the nation. The highs that make the Holiday World experience what it
is are probably some of the best on the planet (wood coasters, free
items, customer service/personal touch), but whenever I visit I'm also
aware of some lows that go a bit deeper than other highly-regarded
parks which I don't think I've rarely if ever heard commented on
before. So I figured I'd cut out the positive fluff which has already
been said a million times over about the place and focus just on the
aspects I've rarely if ever heard expressed. I could do similar with
most other parks, but I don't think I could make the list quite as
long, or at least not have it full of equally cliche criticisms (i.e.
anything negative about CP would be rather obvious and already stated
many times before me). Especially because if there's one park I think
I could count on to actually read and consider this list of
criticisms, it's probably Holiday World.
I actually don't like it when parks spend extravagant amounts of
capital on themeing like Disney, but I do expect there to be some
sense of mood, atmosphere, or at least unique character when I visit a
park. Holiday World should have that easy seeing what their 'themes'
are (we spend less than $100 each year to 'theme' our house to
Christmas and it's always pretty effective), but they don't even try,
each section looking exactly like the other with the exception of
different paint schemes and naming. And like I said, the 'charming,
small park' defense has been less effective now that they're adding
multi-million dollar, high-capacity investments yearly, the contrast
is beginning to feel less 'charming' and more 'cheap'. It's asking a
little bit much to go in not expecting a theme park when that's what
they advertise themselves as, "The Nation's First Theme Park", every
chance they get.
I was hoping to have the reviews of the three coasters up to help
counterbalance the park review but I was waiting on getting some
photos from a friend who did a backstage tour (right now it looks like
they're going to be mostly text) who still hasn't gotten back to me.
I'll wait until later this evening, if I still haven't gotten them the
reviews are going up regardless.
mamoosh
> So I figured I'd cut out the positive fluff which has already
> been said a million times over about the place and focus just on the
> aspects I've rarely if ever heard expressed.
Translation: I'm only going to focus on what makes my argument and
ignore that which invalidates it.
Jeremy
>
> Translation: I'm only going to focus on what makes my argument and
> ignore that which invalidates it.
Um, no. My argument is not that Holiday World is a bad park. My
argument is nothing more than the summation of the different points,
which is that there are multiple criticisms I have with the park, i.e.
A, B, C and D... If it were a standard review site where I give
lettered grades ranking parks and attractions across even criteria
then a lot of what I write would be completely outlandish, however
it's not, and I choose to make each piece unique by focusing on a
particular subject that I think is worth looking into further and
experimenting with different writing techniques.
Jerry
> So my question is: am I the only one that thinks Holiday World is a
> little bit overrated?
Count me among those who say "yes" to being overrated. I have been
three times -- 1998, 2004, and 2007 during Coaster Con. Is it a very
nice park? Yes. Do I wish it were down the road from me instead of
California's Great America or maybe Gilroy Gardens? Yes. Do I wish
it were easier for me to get to? Yes.
But I also don't understand some of the undying love to the park
either. I just don't feel it. And I would say the same way I don't
to Cedar Point either.
I enjoy my time, but just feel it somewhat lacking too. Maybe it's
the quantity of rides. Maybe it's a reaction to people's view of the
quality that I feel is exists at several other parks as well. Maybe
it's a bit of the hypocrisy I feel.
I just don't quite get the special feeling that I get at some other
places.
BaSSiStiSt
experience the joy of joys of riding on trainloads filled with nothing
but coaster enthusiasts…)"
Really...it's not that bad. I'm one of those that doesn't like to get
too close to enthusiasses. But HWN is really not that bad, and the
night rides on Voyage more than make up for a few dorks. You just need
to go with some cool friends and it's a great time. Just don't hang
out with Moosh, whatever you do.
coughcoughGEEKcough
David Sandborg
<df13fd93-fdbc-40dd...@22g2000yqr.googlegroups.com>,
Andrew Hartman <ahar...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Hey Jeremy, I am just curious... what is your favorite park? You know,
> the place you criticize the least?
>
> I know that if I took every ride and every park I went to and pulled
> it apart and analyzed it to death like you do with all these reports I
> wouldn't have nearly as much fun at them or on them as I do. I can see
> where you get all the generic things from and the lack of elaborate
> theming, but then again what do you expect from a family park in the
> middle of nowhere? They arent going to spend tons and tons of money
> like Disney or something similar, I guess you have to come in knowing
> what to expect.
I don't think this is entirely fair. If you read some of Jeremy's other
writings you'll find that he isn't a critic, he's a contrarian. He has
high praise for Beast, and even tries to defend SLC's as at least
potentially good rides. So he's less about knocking things down than
challenging conventional wisdom, whether that be positive or negative.
As for the issue at hand, I see exactly where Jeremy's coming from. And
I can assure him that he's not alone; I know several who would find no
other reason to visit Holiday World than their wood coasters. In fact,
when put in those terms I'd likely be in the same boat. And probably a
lot of other coaster enthusiasts too...if they'd never put in Raven, how
many people would have ever visited?
That being said, I almost always have a great time at the park, even at
times that I'm doing other things than the wood coasters (I can't speak
for the water park, which I never do). The tense feel of 2008's
Holiwood Nights ERT turned me away a bit--though I only really
recognized it myself when I had such a great time on an "old school"
Rampage ERT not long afterwards. And I heard that 2009's Holiwood
Nights didn't have that negative feel. I believe I'll be back this year
and I have little doubt that it'll be a highlight event again.
--
Dave Sandborg
Remove Spam-away to respond via e-mail.
mamoosh
> coughcoughGEEKcough
coughcoughOVERPLANNERcough ;)
Janna
>
> So my question is: am I the only one that thinks Holiday World is a
> little bit overrated?
No.
They've got a couple of kick-ass coasters, free drinks, and a few
charming things like the toy and doll museums, but I agree with you,
particularly with regard to the general park aesthetic.
If I ever sat down and compiled such a list, I doubt Holiday World
would make it to my personal top 10 (or even 20) favorite amusement
parks.
--Janna
GodsOnSafari
I'm with you. If I'm rating places as parks beyond just being
collections of thrill rides...its not gonna rank that highly. It'll do
better than a lot, sure, but its not going to soar into my top 5 or
anything. If it was, I would have worked harder to go back in the last
3 years.
Andrew Hartman
wrote:
> As for the issue at hand, I see exactly where Jeremy's coming from. And
> I can assure him that he's not alone; I know several who would find no
> other reason to visit Holiday World than their wood coasters. In fact,
> when put in those terms I'd likely be in the same boat. And probably a
> lot of other coaster enthusiasts too...if they'd never put in Raven, how
> many people would have ever visited?
>
Hey Dave,
Yeah it was not uncomfortable this year at HWN like in 08 by any means
which I was real glad to see. Hopefully it will remain this way but
yeah, its nowhere near what SRM was and never will be. As for what I
quoted above...probably no one! Same goes for most places. As awesome
as all the non-coasters are at Knoebels, I probably never would have
visited if they didnt have Phoenix or Twister. The old school stuff
really is missed!
-Andrew
Nashville Mike
When I recommend the park to co-workers (which I've done several times
in the past 3 years), being I'm 3.5 hours away, the "report" back from
them is always extremely positive - people who used to consider Six
Flags Kentucky or Georgia no longer visit there, they go to HW
instead. The balance of the fair pricing, cleanliness, supposedly
excellent water park and a couple of thrilling roller coasters makes
it a hit with your average corporate worker family with kids.
From a coaster enthusiasts perspective, they offer IMO the best
coaster (by a fair margin) for my tastes and a pretty good second
coaster in the Raven (I'm no longer a fan of the Legend, but whatever)
and in my experience no park over the longer course of time treats
enthusiasts as well. While the 2008 HWN was problematic in terms of
friendliness/feel compared to most (and this was definitely fixed in
2009), the other HWN (and earlier, SRM) events have been the one event
that is an absolute "can't miss" for me since it offers a rare
combination of traditional style wooden coaster taken to the highest
degree of quality with late night riding - there is no other event
that does this, and thus at least for me it's worth whatever it takes
to get there. Add to this owners who are enthusiast friendly and a
park that is quite affordable to spend a day in, and it gets a good
reputation amongsts enthusiasts. Honestly I don't think *any* other
park would have taken the chance they did with the Voyage (in terms of
building an all-out intense ride that pushes the boundaries of what
can be done with a traditional wood coaster), particularly when most
every other park goes for the "make it high, make it look mean, but oh
god no, don't make it thrilling" approach.
However, being that I'm not a water park enthusiast, and forcing
myself to loook *beyond* the coaster event and the coasters - sure, HW
isn't going to be a place that I speak of as being "the best amusement
park ever" - it does have infrastructure issues (bit short of
bathrooms), could definitely use a better and/or another restaraunt,
and is short a few other thrill rides besides the coasters and thus on
a non-event day, outside of coasters, which are great, the park is a
bit "thin" for a non-waterpark person. However, if you are a water
park person, that gets mitigated quite a bit. I do think over time
they park will continue to expand and as they add more attractions
they'll also mitigate the lack of rides in the dry section a bit and
hopefully address the infrastructure issues as well - the Kochs are
pretty smart at what they do.
-m
kirk_ri...@yahoo.com
would eventually cease to be perfect because not everyone of us is
alike...including you and me. Our opinions differ...correct?
So...while Jeremy is certainly trying to help us "color outside the
box" in how we view Holiday World...the reality is that we could
probably do that to some degree with any park. This...IMHO is the
nature of those who try take a more philosophical approach to looking
at and arguing for and/or against things. Their is always an argument
both for and against things. The question is...what is important to
each of us individually in a park and at what point do certain parks
stand out to you because of the things that are important to you in a
park. For me, there are several things I look for in a park:
1. A good wooden coaster (Holiday World gets a A+ for this)
2. Free Parking (once again an A+)
3. The ability to Pay Per Ride or get an all day ride bracelet (they
obviously do not offer this...and simply put...I like being able to
stop by a park for a couple of rides when traveling through)
3. Friendly Employees (Holiday World gets an A+)
4. Good food for good prices (the free soft drinks help them in this
category...I have not eaten their food often enough to know if it is
good vs. bad...B+ based on limited knowledge)
5. Good rides outside of coasters...I generally care mostly about
carousels, classic bumper cars, and dark rides (I would really like to
see them have a classic carousel...especially given the age of the
park... and obviously classic bumper cars are almost non-existent
these days...I would give them a C+ in this category)
6. Odds and ends offerings that make the park unique (the toy museum
and glass blowing would cause me to give them a B+ in this category)
7. Rides my kids will enjoy (generally any kiddie rides can work in
this category and a good kiddie water park section (I have not taken
my kids here, but my guess would be they would rate it at least a B+)
8. Great Neon and lighting effect at night
9. In a location where it is generally not miserably hot in the summer
I am sure there are other things I would list, but I am out of
time...Knoebels, Lakeside, and Waldameer are among my favorite parks
for these reasons...If I were to eliminate #2 then many others would
rate much higher...thoughts and feedback are welcomed (as if it
matters on this site right?)
nogodforme
I would call Holiday World the "Darlings" of the coaster world.
They've been more visible to the fans. In fact, you can be sure
everything posted here will be read by them. Raven Maven is a
regular on this board talking to the fans, and I think that went a
long way to help their PR. The corporate parks don't talk in here,
because they're scared that something they say could make their stock
fall. But in fact, they shouldn't care about the stock. The
corporate companies would be better off going private (besides
Disney), because the stock price is dirt and the coaster side of their
operations is nothing to the parent companies. That's why Paramount
said bye to their parks. GE is doing the same thing with NBC, which
recently got rid of Universal. Corporate parks have no communication
with the fans, they're scared to talk besides the back stage tours
that Rob goes on. Back to my first point, the other smaller
parks don't have a presence on this (RRC) forum. I've never seen
someone from Kennywood, Lake Compounce, Knobels, or Mt. Olympus parks
come in here to talk with the fans. Thus they go practically un-
noticed during the year. Mean while, Raven Maven will be in here
talking to fans, and I'm sure Rob will have an interview when the new
water coaster (WildeBeest) gets ready to open.
David H.--REMOVE "STOPSPAM" to reply
wrote:
>Likely Kennywood (not that there aren't a couple things there I
>wouldn't mind changing if I could). I would even probably rate Indiana
>Beach slightly higher than Holiday World, only being slightly outdone
>in the quality of coasters, but even then they're not far behind.
Not far behind, eh?
Let's look at Mitch's poll. Over 700 people participated this year.
1 The Voyage Holiday World IN 238 179 0 0 1.0000
18 Raven Holiday World IN 250 161 18 0 0.8994
38 The Legend Holiday World IN 248 143 36 0 0.7989
30 Cornball Express Indiana Beach IN 165 147 30 2 0.8268
71 Hoosier Hurricane Indiana Beach IN 167 104 73 2 0.5866
88 Lost Coaster of SM Indiana Beach IN 152 87 89 2 0.4944 48
I'm gonna have to go with Indiana Beach's coasters being VERY far behind.
At least in the general opinions of most coaster enthusiasts. I mean, it's
not even remotely close there.
And personally, I'd rank Legend much higher, and Raven a bit higher (since
it's been toned down after the incident.) And I'd rank Cornball far lower
and Hoosier lower, as well.
My rankings:
Voyage:1
Legend: 3
Raven: 8.
Cornball: 50
LoCoSuMo: 80
Hoosier Hurricane: 102.
OK, maybe my Raven ranking is a bit generous these days. But these are
otherwise me honest opinions.
While I do think that Holiday World sometimes gets a bit more credit than
they deserve -- for one thing, there are plenty of water parks that are at
least as good -- I think that the coasters are loved because they're great
coasters. In fact, I think that one of the reasons that the park gets more
credit sometimes is precisely because the coasters are so good. When a
park has great coasters, enthusiasts tend to be more generous in their
other assessments of the park!
David H, davi...@STOPSPAMbellatlantic.net, Boston, MA
PLEASE remove "STOPSPAM" from my address when replying via e-mail.
"Patriotism means to stand by the country. It does not mean to stand by
the president or any other public official, save exactly to the degree
in which he himself stands by the country. It is patriotic to support
him insofar as he efficiently serves the country. It is unpatriotic not
to oppose him to the exact extent that by inefficiency or otherwise he
fails in his duty to stand by the country. In either event, it is
unpatriotic not to tell the truth, whether about the president or
anyone else."
-- Theodore Roosevelt
Wolf
You're forgetting that Indiana Beach actually has steel coasters. =) None of
them are great, but Tig'rr and Steel Hawg are definitely interesting. It
also has a much different park feel, and I think picks up some benefit from
that.
Incidentally, I'm the reverse of you. I have Raven and Legend lower and
Cornball higher.
--
|\-/|
<0 0>
=(o)=
-Wolf
Mark Rosenzweig
>
> - Show quoted text -
As bizarre as it may have sounded as recently as 10 years ago, HW to
IB is very similar to HP to Knoebels. They're further apart, but
HW and HP are both unique traditional parks that have grown leaps and
bounds in the past decade or so with lots of big, modern, marketable
attractions.
IB is the birthchild of Knoebels and Morey's Piers with a dash of
Williams Grove and a one night stand with Lakeside all in one. Not
that *any* of that is a bad thing.
Not that any of this is remotely relevant to anything in the world
ever....just some leaking thoughts.
Jeremy
<davidhhhSTOPS...@bellatlantic.net> wrote:
> On Tue, 29 Dec 2009 10:15:28 -0800 (PST), Jeremy <jkthompso...@gmail.com>
> PLEASE remove "STOPSPAM" from my address when replying via e-mail.
>
> "Patriotism means to stand by the country. It does not mean to stand by
> the president or any other public official, save exactly to the degree
> in which he himself stands by the country. It is patriotic to support
> him insofar as he efficiently serves the country. It is unpatriotic not
> to oppose him to the exact extent that by inefficiency or otherwise he
> fails in his duty to stand by the country. In either event, it is
> unpatriotic not to tell the truth, whether about the president or
> anyone else."
> -- Theodore Roosevelt
Besides the fact that I was being asked for my personal opinion and
not citing Mitch's poll. Individually I rank each of Holiday World's
coasters higher than any individual attraction at IB, but rides like
Cornball Express, LoCoSuMo and Steel Hawg are still all in my personal
top twenty lists as well. And if there's one thing I don't like about
Holiday World's coasters, it's that they're all basically the same
ride built three times over, each time with a bigger budget and a few
new ideas. I'm not complaining because it's a great ride to begin with
and each iteration still manages to make my top list of favorites, but
Indiana Beach does beat them a bit for having a greater variety of
coasters that complement each other rather than try to out-do each
other.
Jeremy
I really like that analogy... and I would call each of those
comparisons with IB very *good* things. :)
Janna
> IB is the birthchild of Knoebels and Morey's Piers with a dash of
> Williams Grove and a one night stand with Lakeside all in one. Not
> that *any* of that is a bad thing.
Given a choice, I'd probably rather spend the day at IB than HW,
although the current management at IB may change that. My last visit
(1st under the new management) wasn't so great.
Wolf
As bizarre as it may have sounded as recently as 10 years ago, HW to
IB is very similar to HP to Knoebels. They're further apart, but
HW and HP are both unique traditional parks that have grown leaps and
bounds in the past decade or so with lots of big, modern, marketable
attractions.
IB is the birthchild of Knoebels and Morey's Piers with a dash of
Williams Grove and a one night stand with Lakeside all in one. Not
that *any* of that is a bad thing.
Not that any of this is remotely relevant to anything in the world
ever....just some leaking thoughts.
-----------
Indiana Beach is motley. It's also the closest thing to a pier park between
the coasts, and just as authentic as any Jersey shore or NYC park.
As a park, I like IB's density and mayhem more than HW's pastoral charm.
That said, I like HW's rides more, and trust their management a ton more.
David H.--REMOVE "STOPSPAM" to reply
I've always described IB as a Jersey shore pier park, but much cleaner --
in all senses of the term. And that's a good thing.
I wasn't trying to put any hate on IB. I was just saying that what makes
IB a great park actually has fairly little to do with the quality of their
coatsers.
David H.--REMOVE "STOPSPAM" to reply
wrote:
>On Jan 3, 3:17�am, "David H.--REMOVE \"STOPSPAM\" to reply"
Really? Because I see very few similarities between Holiday World's
woodies, other than the fact that they're all wood.
LoCoSuMo as a top 20? Well, it's your list. But you're very much in the
minority in that department. And I was surprised to note that I actually
rank it higher than the average enthusiast taking the poll.
And my point was to counter your notion that people love HW despite the
coasters being almost as good as the ones at IB.
My point is that the coasters are generally thought of as NOT being even
remotely close to the ones at IB. And THAT is one of the very reasons why
we tend to give HW a lot more slack than we might otherwise.
If, in fact, the coasters at the two parks were thought of as being
relatively similar in quality, then you're have a really good point. But
since I don't think that they are, it kind of makes the rest of your point
somewhat invalid.
After all, we're coaster enthusiasts. If someone has very good coasters,
we tend to be more forgiving of anything else. And the better the coasters
are, the more forgiving we tend to be.
Luckily, HW has a lot more going for it that makes us enjoy the park, not
the least of which are the park's staff and long-term relationship with the
enthusiast community (despite an obvious bump in that relationship.)
My argument is that it's not just because of that relationship that we tend
to cut HW more slack. It's because the coasters are that much better than
anywhere else.
David H, davi...@STOPSPAMbellatlantic.net, Boston, MA
David H.--REMOVE "STOPSPAM" to reply
I'm not forgetting the steel coasters at IB. I'm pretty much dismissing
them as irrelevant to the argument! ;-)
Although, to be fair, I'd forgotten about Steel Hawg. But I haven't
exactly heard anyone online raving about it as a top tier coaster either,
so it was easy to forget. And it doesn't really affect the discussion that
much, IMHO.
His point is that IB is "only being slightly outdone in the quality of
coasters, but even then they're not far behind." And my point was that
that's not even remotely true in my mind, or in the minds of the vast
majority of enthusiasts, according to the polls. In fact, in my mind,
they're WAAAAAYYYY behind.
He was asking why people tend to cut HW so much slack if their coasters are
only slightly better than IB's. I was responding that most people don't
consider them to be so. So, that pretty much answers his question.
>Incidentally, I'm the reverse of you. I have Raven and Legend lower and
>Cornball higher.
I've never understood the love that Cornball's gotten from some sectors of
enthusiasts over the years. Sure, it's a fun coaster. But it simply
doesn't do that much for me. And I mean that literally. It doesn't have
any strong forces in any direction. Sure, it's lots of fun. So are half
the woodies on the list.
IB is an interesting place. I always enjoy going there, more for the whole
atmosphere of the place. But I'd never go there just because the coasters
alone were worth the trip.
Wolf
>>Cornball higher.
>
> I've never understood the love that Cornball's gotten from some sectors of
> enthusiasts over the years. Sure, it's a fun coaster. But it simply
> doesn't do that much for me. And I mean that literally. It doesn't have
> any strong forces in any direction. Sure, it's lots of fun. So are half
> the woodies on the list.
>
> IB is an interesting place. I always enjoy going there, more for the
> whole
> atmosphere of the place. But I'd never go there just because the coasters
> alone were worth the trip.
Much of my love of Cornball is based on its 2nd season rides, when it was
kicking ass and taking names. Basically, it was Raven without the rather
blah opening section. Plus it had the flume duel and interacted randomly
with Tig'rr and Hurricane.
It's lost some force since then (not as spectacularly as the desecration of
J2), but it's still a competitive coaster that strings along nicely and
lacks any really weak sections -- and pretty much every other coaster on my
list has at least one dud section.
Nashville Mike
>
> As a park, I like IB's density and mayhem more than HW's pastoral charm.
> That said, I like HW's rides more, and trust their management a ton more.
>
I'm understanding Bill here quite a bit.
For me - for a coaster EVENT, I'm at HW - nobody does it better
(although man, RRR at Visionland 2 years ago got close), and nobody
has a better wooden coaster (by a significant margin) than they do for
*my* tastes. However, if I'm going to spend a non-event day at either
park, I'm likely to head to Indiana Beach (although I haven't been
there with the new management in place so that could change in a
hurry) - IB, while not possessing a really great coaster (sorry,
Cornball is not that great - it was better when it opened, and is
nothing but average today), has a really cool vibe and a strange mix
of things to do - combined with a serviceable sit down place to eat
and lots of stuff jammed into corners, it's just a more interesting
place to spend a day that isn't an event. But I don't trust their
management or their operations or the safety/security anywhere as much
as I would HW's, that's for sure.
-m
David H.--REMOVE "STOPSPAM" to reply
I'm not sure which years I've visited, but I've never felt it kick ass at
all. Yeah, it was fun, and it occasionally threw you around a bit. But I
never liked it anywhere near as much as so many people seemed to.
And it was certainly never a destination coaster for me. I.e. a coaster
that I'd go out of my for, regardless of the park it's in. Luckily, I've
always enjoyed the park itself for its overall charm, and that's what
always brought me back. (Of course it helps that it's pretty much on the
way from Holiday World to Six Flags Great America!) And I'm certainly
happy enough to ride it when I'm there.
Quick question, if off-topic for this particular thread: Is Steel Hawg
particularly good? I'm probably going to hit HWN this year, and I'll
probably add IB to the trip either before or after. Just wondering what
it's like, since there was never really much talk about it here.
Jeremy
<davidhhhSTOPS...@bellatlantic.net> wrote:
> PLEASE remove "STOPSPAM" from my address when replying via e-mail.
>
> "Patriotism means to stand by the country. It does not mean to stand by
> the president or any other public official, save exactly to the degree
> in which he himself stands by the country. It is patriotic to support
> him insofar as he efficiently serves the country. It is unpatriotic not
> to oppose him to the exact extent that by inefficiency or otherwise he
> fails in his duty to stand by the country. In either event, it is
> unpatriotic not to tell the truth, whether about the president or
> anyone else."
> -- Theodore Roosevelt
I personally liked Steel Hawg a lot and is easily one of my favorite
attractions at Indiana Beach. However it's one of those rides you sort
of have to approach with an open mind, it's approach to forces and
pacing is quite different, you don't feel anything from the speed but
just gravity being angled around you in different ways. However it
does so much different stuff and there's a natural progression from
one element type to the next that I really liked and help make it feel
like a complete coaster rather than just a bunch of gimmicks. Here's a
review I wrote for that one as well if you're interested:
http://www.rollercoasterphilosophy.com/2008/steel-hawg-analysis/
Also to restate the point about Indiana Beach only being slightly less
of a draw in terms of coasters compared to Holiday World... with none
of IB's coasters being bad (even the Galaxi offers surprising ejector
in the back on two of it's drops and I like the sustained building
speed in the helices), and, imo, Steel Hawg, Cornball Express and
LoCoSuMo each being approaching great rides (at the very least two of
those three are completely unique to the country and all have well
thought-out layouts suggesting a complete ride experience; maybe you
disagree but just pretend for the time being this premise is true so
you can decide if the conclusion would follow or not), plus the
reliably basic out-and-back offering of Hoosier Hurricane and the two
compact steels, while it might not be quite in the same league as
three of the world's best terrain coasters (although even still
Cornball and Legend are pretty close together; I'd give the edge to
Cornball based on my experiences with each, mostly because of the
buzzbars and absence of poorly paced or meandering moments that plague
the Legend) when comparing side by side the eclectic variety of
Indiana Beach is still nearly as appealing as a way to spend an entire
day as Holiday World. Again, Holiday World has basically just the one
really great coaster rebuilt two other times, each with a bigger
budget and a few new ideas, while Indiana Beach has the much greater
diversity of six pretty good coasters.
BaSSiStiSt
<davidhhhSTOPS...@bellatlantic.net> wrote:
> Quick question, if off-topic for this particular thread: Is Steel Hawg
> particularly good?
If you like quirky steel coasters, then yes. It's a good collection of
neat things, and it makes me giggle. A lot.
mamoosh
> If you like quirky steel coasters, then yes. It's a good collection of
> neat things, and it makes me giggle. A lot.
It's hella-fun an made me giggle too (not as much as Bass though).
VFTB Matt
>
> - Show quoted text -
Steel Hawg is just bizarre. I've never been in line for a coaster and
there not be any screams, yells, laughter, etc. It was just odd. No
one was making any noise while riding it. Everyone had that, WTF look
when they got off of it.
I like IB for it's wackiness. Where else are you going to find random
Easter Island statues, and concrete tigers? And the clientele. Whoa
boy. Great people watching.
Andrew Brawley
Ride it with me. I'll tickle you and we'll see what happens!
(And for the sake of full disclosure, it made me giggle too.)
BaSSiStiSt
> I like IB for it's wackiness. Where else are you going to find random
> Easter Island statues, and concrete tigers? And the clientele. Whoa
> boy. Great people watching.
Last visit I saw a ton of mullets, a 70's style "fat handle" pocket
comb, and a goddamn RAT TAIL!
They have wierd hair in Indiana.
David H.--REMOVE "STOPSPAM" to reply
wrote:
>I like IB for it's wackiness. Where else are you going to find random
>Easter Island statues, and concrete tigers? And the clientele. Whoa
>boy. Great people watching.
My favorite wacky bit is them selling popcorn by a hole in the boardwalk
where you feed the popcorn to the carp in the water below -- who pile all
over each other to get to the free (for them) food!
Maybe that will have less appeal to me on my next visit, now that I have 6
aquariums in the house and can see fish pushing each other out of the way
for food every day?
David H, davi...@STOPSPAMbellatlantic.net, Boston, MA
Andrew Brawley
<davidhhh...@bellatlantic.net> wrote:
>Maybe that will have less appeal to me on my next visit, now that I have 6
>aquariums in the house and can see fish pushing each other out of the way
>for food every day?
>
Hey look. Howard's being eaten!
mamoosh
> Ride it with me. I'll tickle you and we'll see what happens!
Oooooh....tickle me where? ;-)
Wolf
>>of
>>J2), but it's still a competitive coaster that strings along nicely and
>>lacks any really weak sections -- and pretty much every other coaster on
>>my
>>list has at least one dud section.
>
> I'm not sure which years I've visited, but I've never felt it kick ass at
> all. Yeah, it was fun, and it occasionally threw you around a bit. But I
> never liked it anywhere near as much as so many people seemed to.
>
> And it was certainly never a destination coaster for me. I.e. a coaster
> that I'd go out of my for, regardless of the park it's in. Luckily, I've
> always enjoyed the park itself for its overall charm, and that's what
> always brought me back. (Of course it helps that it's pretty much on the
> way from Holiday World to Six Flags Great America!) And I'm certainly
> happy enough to ride it when I'm there.
>
> Quick question, if off-topic for this particular thread: Is Steel Hawg
> particularly good? I'm probably going to hit HWN this year, and I'll
> probably add IB to the trip either before or after. Just wondering what
> it's like, since there was never really much talk about it here.
It's fun, and it's interesting, but it's not amazing.
But if you loved Hershey's Fahrenheit, Steel Hawg is better.
David H.--REMOVE "STOPSPAM" to reply
No, they only eat their babies. (Their own and each others!)
OK, they'll also pick on the eyes of the dead ones.
Keith Hopkins
news:dcjfk5tqluif0q5mb...@4ax.com...
Oh, shit! It's Mr. Creosote!
--
Keith Hopkins
suss...@sssssssssgmail.ssssssssscom
[clear up the hissing to email]
"Perverts make the very best Scolds."
Mrs. Betty Bowers