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Cedar Point's 2013 Coaster
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kat...@aol.com
May 30, 2012, 12:44:45 PM5/30/12
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BaSSiStiSt
May 30, 2012, 1:55:57 PM5/30/12
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On May 30, 9:44 am, "kat...@aol.com" <kat...@aol.com> wrote:
> http://www.sanduskyregister.com/sandusky/news/cedar-fair/memo-cedar-p...
>
> Ken Simmons
Ooooh, good news!
Wonder if DT is in it's last year, or if they will stick the station
backstage.
> http://www.sanduskyregister.com/sandusky/news/cedar-fair/memo-cedar-p...
>
> Ken Simmons
Ooooh, good news!
Wonder if DT is in it's last year, or if they will stick the station
backstage.
Art Todesco
May 30, 2012, 3:21:11 PM5/30/12
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never ridden a B&M Wing even though I've got one in my back yard
(Dollywood). It looks like fun. I really like Dollywood's commercial
for Wild Eagle http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bgU84v2AKIY.
acer510
May 30, 2012, 8:53:54 PM5/30/12
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Just my opinion, but why would Cedar Point spend 25 million on a
coaster that only people of a certain size
can ride and not on something similar to X2 at SFMM where people of
all sizes(up to a point) can ride?
Plus there is no ride of that configuration in the Midwest or East
coast areas of our country as there are already two
wing rider coasters fairly close(within a day's drive) to Cedar Point.
I would much rather have a higher, faster, longer version of X2 than
Wild Eagle or X-Flight. By the end of the 2012 season, I think more
Sandusky area(Ohio,Indiana,Michigan and Pennsylvania) residents
will have ridden on a wing rider coaster than those who have been on
an X2 type coaster. Cedar Point should be bringing something
unique to their coaster line-up not just a copycat(but longer,higher
and faster) of something close by.
Jim
coaster that only people of a certain size
can ride and not on something similar to X2 at SFMM where people of
all sizes(up to a point) can ride?
Plus there is no ride of that configuration in the Midwest or East
coast areas of our country as there are already two
wing rider coasters fairly close(within a day's drive) to Cedar Point.
I would much rather have a higher, faster, longer version of X2 than
Wild Eagle or X-Flight. By the end of the 2012 season, I think more
Sandusky area(Ohio,Indiana,Michigan and Pennsylvania) residents
will have ridden on a wing rider coaster than those who have been on
an X2 type coaster. Cedar Point should be bringing something
unique to their coaster line-up not just a copycat(but longer,higher
and faster) of something close by.
Jim
GodsOnSafari
May 30, 2012, 9:36:07 PM5/30/12
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imagine that.
182feet
May 30, 2012, 9:51:13 PM5/30/12
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the world. In the third year of the B&M wing coaster, there will be
at least five. What does that tell you? Do you think any park
operator has any interest in buying a hunka junk that will break down
repeatedly and almost kill people before basic design flaws in the
vehicles are discovered, or are they going to go with the world's most
reliable roller coaster manufacturer with 85 successful
installations? Call me a killjoy, but sometimes we have to put aside
our own preferences as enthusiasts, and consider how and why simple
business common sense prevails.
Dave Althoff Jr.
May 30, 2012, 11:04:10 PM5/30/12
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>> > (Why a B&M Wing Coaster and not an S&S 4D coaster instead?)
Thrill Dragster, Maverick and Shoot the Rapids, most of us have stopped
expecting simple business common sense from Cedar Point.
And besides which, here on r.r-c, the coaster we're still expecting
Cedar Point to install is the Arrow Pipeline. 8-)
-- Dave Althoff, Jr.
/X\ _ *** Respect rides. They do not respect you. ***
/XXX\ /X\ /X\_ _ /X\__ _ _ _____
/XXXXX\ /XXX\ /XXXX\_ /X\ /XXXXX\ /X\ /X\ /XXXXX
_/XXXXXXX\__/XXXXX\/XXXXXXXX\_/XXX\_/XXXXXXX\__/XXX\_/XXX\_/\_/XXXXXX
NEW! When emailing this account, include the 'canonical magic word' in
the body of your message for a quicker response.
>
>
> After 10 years in existence, there are two Arrow/S&S 4D coasters in
> the world. In the third year of the B&M wing coaster, there will be
> at least five. What does that tell you? Do you think any park
> operator has any interest in buying a hunka junk that will break down
> repeatedly and almost kill people before basic design flaws in the
> vehicles are discovered, or are they going to go with the world's most
> reliable roller coaster manufacturer with 85 successful
> installations? Call me a killjoy, but sometimes we have to put aside
> our own preferences as enthusiasts, and consider how and why simple
> business common sense prevails.
Yes, but after Millennium Force was followed by Wicked Twister, Top
>
> After 10 years in existence, there are two Arrow/S&S 4D coasters in
> the world. In the third year of the B&M wing coaster, there will be
> at least five. What does that tell you? Do you think any park
> operator has any interest in buying a hunka junk that will break down
> repeatedly and almost kill people before basic design flaws in the
> vehicles are discovered, or are they going to go with the world's most
> reliable roller coaster manufacturer with 85 successful
> installations? Call me a killjoy, but sometimes we have to put aside
> our own preferences as enthusiasts, and consider how and why simple
> business common sense prevails.
Thrill Dragster, Maverick and Shoot the Rapids, most of us have stopped
expecting simple business common sense from Cedar Point.
And besides which, here on r.r-c, the coaster we're still expecting
Cedar Point to install is the Arrow Pipeline. 8-)
-- Dave Althoff, Jr.
/X\ _ *** Respect rides. They do not respect you. ***
/XXX\ /X\ /X\_ _ /X\__ _ _ _____
/XXXXX\ /XXX\ /XXXX\_ /X\ /XXXXX\ /X\ /X\ /XXXXX
_/XXXXXXX\__/XXXXX\/XXXXXXXX\_/XXX\_/XXXXXXX\__/XXX\_/XXX\_/\_/XXXXXX
NEW! When emailing this account, include the 'canonical magic word' in
the body of your message for a quicker response.
David H.--REMOVE "STOPSPAM" to reply
May 31, 2012, 8:18:32 AM5/31/12
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On Wed, 30 May 2012 17:53:54 -0700 (PDT), acer510 <jlla...@hotmail.com>
wrote:
I think reliability is a key point here. X/X2 has always been extremely
unreliable. Their last two major coasters have also been unreliable. Now
they want something that is very reliable, and that means B&M. See various
threads in this group, where people have complained about the reliability
of their recent new rides.
Plus, B&M have managed to convince the parks that wing riders are the next
big thing.
"With the first link, a chain is forged. The first speech censured,
the first thought forbidden, the first freedom denied, chains us
all irrevocably." -Capt. Jean-Luc Picard
"The Drumhead", _Star Trek: The Next Generation_
wrote:
unreliable. Their last two major coasters have also been unreliable. Now
they want something that is very reliable, and that means B&M. See various
threads in this group, where people have complained about the reliability
of their recent new rides.
Plus, B&M have managed to convince the parks that wing riders are the next
big thing.
"With the first link, a chain is forged. The first speech censured,
the first thought forbidden, the first freedom denied, chains us
all irrevocably." -Capt. Jean-Luc Picard
"The Drumhead", _Star Trek: The Next Generation_
182feet
May 31, 2012, 9:06:02 AM5/31/12
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On May 30, 11:04 pm, dalloff.gcfn....@sbcglobal.net (Dave Althoff Jr.)
wrote:
> Yes, but after Millennium Force was followed by Wicked Twister, Top
> Thrill Dragster, Maverick and Shoot the Rapids, most of us have stopped
> expecting simple business common sense from Cedar Point.
>
> And besides which, here on r.r-c, the coaster we're still expecting
> Cedar Point to install is the Arrow Pipeline. 8-)
I believe the source of the bad decisions is no longer with the
company. Or, have some have speculated, Kernacs' pictures of Kinzel
with a goat are of no use anymore.
I think the most telling evidence of the end of the road for CF and
Intamin was Leviathan. It's obvious that B&M was brought in to do a
job that was initially envisioned as an Intamin project, but after 305
and Shoot the Rapids I think even Kinzel said enough was enough.
As for S&S - not even in the equation. Maybe their swing rides are
doing OK, but I don't ever see CF contracting S&S to build them a
major coaster. I'd even say we'll probably never see a 4D from S&S at
any US park again, let alone a CF park.
wrote:
> Yes, but after Millennium Force was followed by Wicked Twister, Top
> Thrill Dragster, Maverick and Shoot the Rapids, most of us have stopped
> expecting simple business common sense from Cedar Point.
>
> And besides which, here on r.r-c, the coaster we're still expecting
> Cedar Point to install is the Arrow Pipeline. 8-)
company. Or, have some have speculated, Kernacs' pictures of Kinzel
with a goat are of no use anymore.
I think the most telling evidence of the end of the road for CF and
Intamin was Leviathan. It's obvious that B&M was brought in to do a
job that was initially envisioned as an Intamin project, but after 305
and Shoot the Rapids I think even Kinzel said enough was enough.
As for S&S - not even in the equation. Maybe their swing rides are
doing OK, but I don't ever see CF contracting S&S to build them a
major coaster. I'd even say we'll probably never see a 4D from S&S at
any US park again, let alone a CF park.
ldnayman
May 31, 2012, 10:01:24 AM5/31/12
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On May 30, 8:53 pm, acer510 <jllang...@hotmail.com> wrote:
- they are new, it'll be cool, so why not? Nobody wants an X2 those
things are ridiculous, and MOST people will fit just fine in a BM wing
coaster.
Rastus O'Ginga
May 31, 2012, 10:14:32 AM5/31/12
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>
> - Show quoted text -
If Arrow/S&S could fix the damn wobbling up and down, 4D coasters
could be phenomenal. But, even though many say it didn't have it on
opening day, videos prove otherwise. X opened with a vibration of the
rack system that make it give a very unenjoyable ride on the outer
seats, and marginal ones on the inner seats. To my knowledge, all the
newer ones have the same problem. My guess is that the rack needs to
have some play in it, so the ride doesn't self destruct. This play
allows for the oscillation.
Hell, the very first version of X, which of course is the Haunted
Mansion at DL, also has oscillation to it. Ride it, and you'll notice
a constant left to right motion, especially in a few sections. I
guess they still haven't figured out how to fix it in almost 50
years.
-R
ldnayman
May 31, 2012, 11:22:41 AM5/31/12
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>
> - Show quoted text -
According to Wikipedia, Magic Mountain has put $45 million into their
> - Show quoted text -
X coaster...that can't be true, can it?!
ckoz...@snet.net
May 31, 2012, 11:32:27 AM5/31/12
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looks like even RCDB hasn't gotten wind of this yet!
skiguy777
May 31, 2012, 11:42:29 AM5/31/12
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It bugs me they want to go out into the parking lot, oh well. One more reason to have the free shuttle bus from Breakers and Castaway bay. I hope they at least put grass down in the parking lot area under the coaster, and don't leave it like SF did with Scream. That's just hideous.
B&M is fine, but I do like their collection of Intamin rides. The next one to bring to the USA would be a Forumla Rossa, but CP doesn't have the room. Could do that at KI and then people would visit both parks like I keep saying. It's probably why they didn't add anything to CP for 6 years. Use the existing queue from SOB, launch the coaster out into the mountain area up to 155mph, record breaker.
B&M is fine, but I do like their collection of Intamin rides. The next one to bring to the USA would be a Forumla Rossa, but CP doesn't have the room. Could do that at KI and then people would visit both parks like I keep saying. It's probably why they didn't add anything to CP for 6 years. Use the existing queue from SOB, launch the coaster out into the mountain area up to 155mph, record breaker.
tyl...@gmail.com
May 31, 2012, 6:04:55 PM5/31/12
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On Thursday, May 31, 2012 10:14:32 AM UTC-4, Rastus O'Ginga wrote:
> If Arrow/S&S could fix the damn wobbling up and down, 4D coasters
> could be phenomenal. But, even though many say it didn't have it on
> opening day, videos prove otherwise. X opened with a vibration of the
> rack system that make it give a very unenjoyable ride on the outer
> seats, and marginal ones on the inner seats. To my knowledge, all the
> newer ones have the same problem. My guess is that the rack needs to
> have some play in it, so the ride doesn't self destruct. This play
> allows for the oscillation.
>
> Hell, the very first version of X, which of course is the Haunted
> Mansion at DL, also has oscillation to it. Ride it, and you'll notice
> a constant left to right motion, especially in a few sections. I
> guess they still haven't figured out how to fix it in almost 50
> years.
>
> -R
The fix seems fairly simple to me. Go electric! Do away with the extra pair of rails and the rack entirely. mount AC motors on the pivot axle, with computer control. Given the high peak torque needed, a powered 3rd rail would probably work better than batteries. Plus this would have the advantage of allowing multiple ride profiles. Imagine if X2 had 5 different programs, so that various bits of the ride were taken in different orientations.
> If Arrow/S&S could fix the damn wobbling up and down, 4D coasters
> could be phenomenal. But, even though many say it didn't have it on
> opening day, videos prove otherwise. X opened with a vibration of the
> rack system that make it give a very unenjoyable ride on the outer
> seats, and marginal ones on the inner seats. To my knowledge, all the
> newer ones have the same problem. My guess is that the rack needs to
> have some play in it, so the ride doesn't self destruct. This play
> allows for the oscillation.
>
> Hell, the very first version of X, which of course is the Haunted
> Mansion at DL, also has oscillation to it. Ride it, and you'll notice
> a constant left to right motion, especially in a few sections. I
> guess they still haven't figured out how to fix it in almost 50
> years.
>
> -R
Robert
May 31, 2012, 7:06:29 PM5/31/12
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On May 31, 8:18 am, "David H.--REMOVE \"STOPSPAM\" to reply"
<davidhhhSTOPS...@bellatlantic.net> wrote:
after floorless there is a simple answer why they have convinced the
parks besides reliability.
"It is." : )
Happy to have one 2 hours away.
<davidhhhSTOPS...@bellatlantic.net> wrote:
> On Wed, 30 May 2012 17:53:54 -0700 (PDT), acer510 <jllang...@hotmail.com>
> wrote:
> Plus, B&M have managed to convince the parks that wing riders are the next
> big thing.
Having only ridden Wild Eagle, I can say that unlike the "ho-hum"
> wrote:
> Plus, B&M have managed to convince the parks that wing riders are the next
> big thing.
after floorless there is a simple answer why they have convinced the
parks besides reliability.
"It is." : )
Happy to have one 2 hours away.
Jeremy
May 31, 2012, 10:06:11 PM5/31/12
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Hopefully this is the grandiose answer to the wing coaster that Tatsu was for the flying coaster I asked for in my X-Flight review. The height statistic and raw land area that they're having to redevelop for it certain suggest something massive. I have my fingers crossed for a layout that exceeds the 5000 ft. long mark, which I don't think is totally unreasonable. That could still only be the fourth longest roller coaster at Cedar Point.
However, the thing I'm worried about is that the price tag seems a little low. $25 million is a huge number, no doubt, but that includes the demolition costs of DT and SS, as well as apparently a major make-over of the entire entrance area. That's at least $5 mil gone there, leaving around $20 million for the coaster itself. That's the same as Wild Eagle. That's also less than Maverick, Top Thrill Dragster, and Millennium Force, without even including inflation (MF today would be closer to $32 million, I think). Considering how long it's been since their last major coaster, and that they've removed a number of attractions before it, I was hoping for a number that would inspire the imagination a bit more while we're still waiting for all the exact details. Maybe not building over swampland (or a mountain, in the WE comparison) means they're able to get a lot more coaster per every dollar spent, but I'm really fearful the final result might see a lot of corners cut for the sake of getting a big marketable product out there quickly. I don't think any real construction has started on that site save for some spray paint markings. Maverick already had the area cleared out, footers poured, and track and supports were on site by this time of the year in 2006. If this is planned to open with the 2013 season, what does the tight construction schedule already tell us about the final product?
One other interesting thought: the track seen at the fabrication plant was green, was it not? This seems like a strange choice because it's at the front of the park directly opposite Raptor. But I wonder if they might do what Alton Towers has done recently and create a "brand" around one of their long-time popular coasters with spin-off attractions. We've kind of seen that at Canada's Wonderland already with the Behemoth/Leviathan pairing. Then again, Raptor doesn't have much of a notable brand to work with, other than the fact that it's green and has a very general bird-of-prey theme.
However, the thing I'm worried about is that the price tag seems a little low. $25 million is a huge number, no doubt, but that includes the demolition costs of DT and SS, as well as apparently a major make-over of the entire entrance area. That's at least $5 mil gone there, leaving around $20 million for the coaster itself. That's the same as Wild Eagle. That's also less than Maverick, Top Thrill Dragster, and Millennium Force, without even including inflation (MF today would be closer to $32 million, I think). Considering how long it's been since their last major coaster, and that they've removed a number of attractions before it, I was hoping for a number that would inspire the imagination a bit more while we're still waiting for all the exact details. Maybe not building over swampland (or a mountain, in the WE comparison) means they're able to get a lot more coaster per every dollar spent, but I'm really fearful the final result might see a lot of corners cut for the sake of getting a big marketable product out there quickly. I don't think any real construction has started on that site save for some spray paint markings. Maverick already had the area cleared out, footers poured, and track and supports were on site by this time of the year in 2006. If this is planned to open with the 2013 season, what does the tight construction schedule already tell us about the final product?
One other interesting thought: the track seen at the fabrication plant was green, was it not? This seems like a strange choice because it's at the front of the park directly opposite Raptor. But I wonder if they might do what Alton Towers has done recently and create a "brand" around one of their long-time popular coasters with spin-off attractions. We've kind of seen that at Canada's Wonderland already with the Behemoth/Leviathan pairing. Then again, Raptor doesn't have much of a notable brand to work with, other than the fact that it's green and has a very general bird-of-prey theme.
tyl...@gmail.com
May 31, 2012, 10:34:06 PM5/31/12
to
On Thursday, May 31, 2012 10:06:11 PM UTC-4, Jeremy wrote:
> Hopefully this is the grandiose answer to the wing coaster that Tatsu was for the flying coaster I asked for in my X-Flight review. The height statistic and raw land area that they're having to redevelop for it certain suggest something massive. I have my fingers crossed for a layout that exceeds the 5000 ft. long mark, which I don't think is totally unreasonable. That could still only be the fourth longest roller coaster at Cedar Point.
I seriously doubt the loss profile would support a layout that long. The one downside to the wing coaster design is that it has a LOT of frontal area.
> Hopefully this is the grandiose answer to the wing coaster that Tatsu was for the flying coaster I asked for in my X-Flight review. The height statistic and raw land area that they're having to redevelop for it certain suggest something massive. I have my fingers crossed for a layout that exceeds the 5000 ft. long mark, which I don't think is totally unreasonable. That could still only be the fourth longest roller coaster at Cedar Point.
As a comparable, Superman: Krypton Coaster runs 4025ft off a 168' lift, and doesn't have a ton of energy to waste at the end. That's a standard floorless, which will have less air drag. I'd expect 3700ft to 3900ft, barring a launch or a 2nd lift or something crazy like that.
Joe Schwartz
May 31, 2012, 11:22:36 PM5/31/12
to
tyl...@gmail.com wrote:
> The fix seems fairly simple to me. Go electric! Do away with the
> extra pair of rails and the rack entirely. mount AC motors on the
> pivot axle, with computer control. Given the high peak torque
> needed, a powered 3rd rail would probably work better than batteries.
> Plus this would have the advantage of allowing multiple ride profiles.
> Imagine if X2 had 5 different programs, so that various bits of the
> ride were taken in different orientations.
SFMM can't even keep X2's sound system working. I doubt they would do
> The fix seems fairly simple to me. Go electric! Do away with the
> extra pair of rails and the rack entirely. mount AC motors on the
> pivot axle, with computer control. Given the high peak torque
> needed, a powered 3rd rail would probably work better than batteries.
> Plus this would have the advantage of allowing multiple ride profiles.
> Imagine if X2 had 5 different programs, so that various bits of the
> ride were taken in different orientations.
any better with electric motors on the train.
Mark Rosenzweig
Jun 1, 2012, 9:07:24 AM6/1/12
to
trains and a mid-course block. The extra 20-30 ft in height for the
lift will compensate for the increased friction factor (similar to
that of a Dive Coaster).
This whole ride is shaping up to be Raptor v.2. Like Raptor, this
latest B&M prototype has been "tested" through smaller 2 train layouts
at several parks and is now ready to be taken to the "CP/Biggest-
Fastest-Longest of its type" level. It will reshape the south side of
the main midway just as Raptor did the North. It will displace at
long-running CP attraction(s). It will also make for a very
interesting shift in traffic flow- both at park opening and the mid-
afternoon hours when the front of the park has been traditionally
quiet.
Rastus O'Ginga
Jun 1, 2012, 11:21:32 AM6/1/12
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>
> - Show quoted text -
It has to be a direct link to rotate. Any electrical driver would
> - Show quoted text -
fail, and could fail at a point that the rider would undergo strong
forces in a bad direction, which could injur them.
-R
skiguy777
Jun 1, 2012, 1:13:30 PM6/1/12
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>
> This whole ride is shaping up to be Raptor v.2.
Wild Eagle 3127 (feet) 61 (Mph)
X Flight 3000 (feet) 55 (Mph)
CP doesn't have to do much to get the record breaker in all categories. 3200 feet and 65 Mph? I really hope it goes 70+ but something tells me it's going to be 65. They could clone the Dollywood layout making the first hill bigger, and there's the extra speed and track length.
182feet
Jun 2, 2012, 7:46:59 AM6/2/12
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On May 31, 11:32 am, ckozi...@snet.net wrote:
> looks like even RCDB hasn't gotten wind of this yet!
Probably because there has been no announcement. This is pure
> looks like even RCDB hasn't gotten wind of this yet!
speculation by The Sandusky Register based on what's been leaked and
interpreted by sources outside the park. While it's all very LIKELY
to be true...like rcdb, I'll believe it when I hear it from Cedar
Point.
skiguy777
Jun 4, 2012, 10:42:47 AM6/4/12
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The other thing, is B&M's fascination with flying. To me, this is the same thing as a sit down floorless. You see the track in front of you, I've watched the Youtube videos. To me, the Inverted is much better in terms of the view. Once again, I'd rather them have the track on top.
To get into the speed category, they have to beat Phantoms revenge at 85 mph. There are no B&M coasters in the speed category, none in height. The fastest would be I-305 or Nitro at 80mph. This thing is going to be a Dollywood clone with a bigger first drop. It's basically an out and back with the helix at the end, similar to Raptor. Look at the comments of Nitro in RCDB and it even says, "L-Shaped out and back design with a helix on the return trip." Raptor does the same thing, you have this big out, turn around, brake run, helix, end.
See the pattern here, that's people go "Ho Hum" when talking about B&M. It's all the same.
If anything, this puts more people at the front of the park, leaving the thrill ride fans at the back riding Maverick.
Jonathan H
Jun 4, 2012, 11:07:16 AM6/4/12
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ldnayman
Jun 4, 2012, 1:53:57 PM6/4/12
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On Jun 4, 10:42 am, skiguy777 <skiguy...@bellsouth.net> wrote:
> The other thing, is B&M's fascination with flying. To me, this is the same thing as a sit down floorless. You see the track in front of you, I've watched the Youtube videos. To me, the Inverted is much better in terms of the view.
You are nuts. On an inverted coaster, the view is absolute shit except
> The other thing, is B&M's fascination with flying. To me, this is the same thing as a sit down floorless. You see the track in front of you, I've watched the Youtube videos. To me, the Inverted is much better in terms of the view.
for the 4 people riding in the front car.
On the wing coasters, the view is great for everyone. You'll be very
surprised how much space is all around you. And they are very cool
rides - at least X-flight is. My only complaint was that the ride
seemed kind of short - so a "longest" seems like a pretty good idea to
me.
skiguy777
Jun 4, 2012, 3:44:38 PM6/4/12
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>
> Leviathan is on both lists, 8th in speed (92 MPH) and 7th in height (306 feet).
Would be cool if the CP flyer was long, but don't see the room. More like a mirror image of Raptor. Just a question of whether the ride goes along the beach, or the midway. If it's an "L" design, the lift hill will come towards the midway just like Raptor, turn 90 degrees, then head towards the main entrance area, turn around, come back into a helix. I'm sure there are sites trying to impose the Dollywood layout in that area to get an idea of what it will look like in either direction.
I'm sure the view is better on the wing coasters than the inverted, but they could do the same stadium seating on the inverted as well. But you're right, on the inverted, you don't get a good forward view unless you're in the front seat. Stadium seating would open it up more.
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