Coney Loop-the-Loop question
Victor Canfield
which was apparently not raced, as photos of cars in the loops never
show more than one at a time. The basic layout seems to have consisted
of the lift (parallel to West Tenth), a high turn (at Surf), the drop
into the loop, then some twists and turns at lower height.
The puzzle is this: photos of the loop (for example,
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/0/0e/Loop_the_Loop,_Luna_Park,_Coney_Island.jpg)
show what appears to be a single high track behind the lift, at the
level of signage advertising the ride. Any ideas if that was an unused
stretch of track, or an alternative path that bypassed the loop?
David Sandborg
Victor Canfield <va...@psu.edu> wrote:
Interesting. I don't know the answer, but if you find out I'd really
like to know. I'm surprised there isn't a photo that shows the complete
layout.
--
Dave Sandborg
Remove Spam-away to respond via e-mail.
Johnny Upsidedown
the buiilding behind the coaster in this photo..
http://scandicards.com/IMAGES_Brooklyn/BKLN-05_Loop-Coney_400pxH_gif32.gif
Then the one you posted looks like its just white washed and what
looks like track is the stairway..
The stairway is under the THE in the photo I linked to..
As I said just a guess.
Johnny
www.johnnyupsidedown.com
Johnny Upsidedown
J>
Wolf
"Victor Canfield" <va...@psu.edu> wrote in message
news:hc4sc0$f040$1...@tr22n12.aset.psu.edu...
Any other good angles of this ride?
Because it seems like that high track is necessary to make it around the
loop.
--
|\-/|
<0 0>
=(o)=
-Wolf
Ricky Summersett
> Any ideas if that was an unused stretch of track, or an alternative path that bypassed the loop?
I am making an assumption here, because I don't know for sure, BUT, it
appears to me to just simply be some track that's part of the ride at
a higher level. As already mentioned, this higher track was possibly
necessary to complete the loop. Is there any photography of this ride
other than the loops? I don't recall ever seeing any other than loop
photos.
Ricky
Ricky Summersett
Oh, never mind, I am talking about a stretch of track entirely
different than what you're asking about. Actually, I'm not quite sure
what stretch of track you are referring to now. Looking at the photo
you linked to I see a steep stairway, two levels of track, and what
looks like supporting framework for the sign and/or ride.
Ricky
jimvid
http://www.coneyislandhistory.org/collection/index.php/ObjectDetail/Show/object_id/436/search_mode/search
A very high-res scan of the picture you originally posted:
http://www.shorpy.com/node/6898?size=_original
looking the other direction:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Ci_loop.jpg
from Surf Avenue:
http://digital.nypl.org/mmpco/pcoimages/801279W.JPG
Victor Canfield
> I�ve never seen this view before:
> http://www.coneyislandhistory.org/collection/index.php/ObjectDetail/Show/object_id/436/search_mode/search
That one clearly shows the double-tracked lift, and a little less
clearly, looking between the loops, two tracks leading from the high
turn into the loops. But it also apparently shows another track from
the top of the ride leading off to the right of the photo.
>
> A very high-res scan of the picture you originally posted:
> http://www.shorpy.com/node/6898?size=_original
Amazing level of detail--the wheels are only slighly blurred by motion.
Three of the four passengers are bent way over. The Loop-the-Loop
sign appears to be a 'tunnel' over a single track.
Keith Hopkins
> jimvid wrote:
>>
>> A very high-res scan of the picture you originally posted:
>> http://www.shorpy.com/node/6898?size=_original
>
> Amazing level of detail--the wheels are only slighly blurred by
> motion. Three of the four passengers are bent way over. The
> Loop-the-Loop sign appears to be a 'tunnel' over a single track.
My favorite part of that picture: "Beware! of pickpockets".
--
Keith Hopkins
suss...@sssssssssgmail.ssssssssscom
[clear up the hissing to email]
"Excuse me, sir, but you appear to be sitting
on my gown. Would you be so kind as to move?"
Mark McKenzie
Derek Gee
"jimvid" <jim...@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:411376d5-a82e-48fb...@l13g2000yqb.googlegroups.com...
>I�ve never seen this view before:
>http://www.coneyislandhistory.org/collection/index.php/ObjectDetail/Show/object_id/436/search_mode/search
That's a really cool view! It's a Detroit Publishing Company view, so the
negative should be in the Library of Congress, but it's not online. I
wonder if it's missing, or just hasn't been scanned yet?
Derek
Wolf
>> http://www.coneyislandhistory.org/collection/index.php/ObjectDetail/Show/object_id/436/search_mode/search
>
> That one clearly shows the double-tracked lift, and a little less clearly,
> looking between the loops, two tracks leading from the high turn into the
> loops. But it also apparently shows another track from the top of the
> ride leading off to the right of the photo.
Are there any Sanford fire maps showing the aerial layout of the ride?
>> A very high-res scan of the picture you originally posted:
>> http://www.shorpy.com/node/6898?size=_original
>
> Amazing level of detail--the wheels are only slighly blurred by motion.
> Three of the four passengers are bent way over. The Loop-the-Loop sign
> appears to be a 'tunnel' over a single track.
The shorpy photo is obviously taken from the lower right of the postcard
shot, judging the position of the signage and the tunnel.
Is it possible the structure on the ride is an accessway, an overlook, or
another ride?
Because if the circuit works the way I think it works, I don't see how that
could be part of the Loop-the-Loop.
Wolf
"Victor Canfield" <va...@psu.edu> wrote in message
news:hc727l$jg0a$1...@tr22n12.aset.psu.edu...
> jimvid wrote:
>
>> http://www.coneyislandhistory.org/collection/index.php/ObjectDetail/Show/object_id/436/search_mode/search
>
> That one clearly shows the double-tracked lift, and a little less clearly,
> looking between the loops, two tracks leading from the high turn into the
> loops. But it also apparently shows another track from the top of the
> ride leading off to the right of the photo.
Opposite angle:
http://www.coneyislandhistory.org/collection/index.php/ObjectDetail/Show/object_id/232/search_mode/related
slightly wider view:
http://www.coneyislandhistory.org/collection/index.php/ObjectDetail/Show/object_id/132/search_mode/related
looks like it goes straight into the drop:
http://www.coneyislandhistory.org/collection/index.php/ObjectDetail/Show/object_id/379/search_mode/search
I wonder if that extra structure isn't a power line:
http://www.coneyislandhistory.org/collection/index.php/ObjectDetail/Show/object_id/231/search_mode/search
Here we go! Crappy resolution, but a wide view of the layout:
http://www.coneyislandhistory.org/collection/index.php/ObjectDetail/Show/object_id/126/search_mode/search
AlRx60
> Coney's Loop-the-Loop coaster (1901-1910) was a double-tracked ride
> which was apparently not raced, as photos of cars in the loops never
> show more than one at a time.
>
> show what appears to be a single high track behind the lift, at the
> level of signage advertising the ride. Any ideas if that was an unused
> stretch of track, or an alternative path that bypassed the loop?
Below is a link to a photo with caption I scanned from the book "Coney
Island - The People's Playground" by Michael Immerso that may help
solve this mystery you have inquired about Victor. The photo, although
similar to the shorpy.com photo, looks to be taken at a later date and
shows one major difference.
As you can see, the top level of track in my photo does NOT have the
elevated steel guide rails that the section of real track below it
plainly has. So, my guess is that the top level was obviously "fake"
track, made to look like part of the ride, possibly to enhance the
height factor or just add to the architecture of the ride. The
shorpy.com photo does show the steel guide rails on the top layer but
again, I think it was made to look like real track. Maybe over the
years, they used those rails to make repairs to the real track which
could be why they are not visible in this photo. Just my guess here.
Also, the photo caption speaks as if maybe this fake track could be
part of the "fanciful architecture".
http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3503/4052069726_5490098580_o.jpg
KenR
Victor Canfield
> Below is a link to a photo with caption I scanned from the book "Coney
> Island - The People's Playground" by Michael Immerso that may help
> solve this mystery you have inquired about Victor. The photo, although
> similar to the shorpy.com photo, looks to be taken at a later date and
> shows one major difference.
>
> As you can see, the top level of track in my photo does NOT have the
> elevated steel guide rails that the section of real track below it
> plainly has. So, my guess is that the top level was obviously "fake"
> track, made to look like part of the ride, possibly to enhance the
> height factor or just add to the architecture of the ride. The
> shorpy.com photo does show the steel guide rails on the top layer but
> again, I think it was made to look like real track. Maybe over the
> years, they used those rails to make repairs to the real track which
> could be why they are not visible in this photo. Just my guess here.
I agree that the track is unusable in that photo. I am still puzzled as
to why, if it was a fake track, it was apparently built the same as the
real track--that seems the hard way to store spare parts. But if it was
originally usable track that could be switched in to bypass one of the
loops, that doesn't seem to make much sense, either.
> http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3503/4052069726_5490098580_o.jpg
>
> KenR
Victor Canfield
> Are there any Sanford fire maps showing the aerial layout of the ride?
The B/W version is broadly consistent with the photos, but it only shows
the structure, somewhat schematically, and not the track. It shows the
trackway leading directly from the turn into the loops. Nothing that
corresponds to the mystery track is obvious.
AlRx60
> I agree that the track is unusable in that photo. I am still puzzled as
> to why, if it was a fake track, it was apparently built the same as the
> real track--that seems the hard way to store spare parts. But if it was
> originally usable track that could be switched in to bypass one of the
> loops, that doesn't seem to make much sense, either.
>
I'm grabbing at straws here but hey, this 'was' Coney Island, where
almost anything goes.
I wonder if it was a "chicken out" track. I noticed on this photo that
there is a man standing on the turn before the loop (you have to zoom
in to see him):
http://www.coneyislandhistory.org/collection/index.php/ObjectDetail/Show/object_id/126/search_mode/search
Maybe he gives riders one last chance before dropping into the loop.
If they chicken out, he could switch the car over to this higher track
that would go behind the Loop the Loop sign and back to the station.
And then all the people that paid to watch them go through the loop
would degrade them and pummel them with stones
and...........nahhhh. :):)
KenR
Victor Canfield
I hadn't noticed that--since it was a halftone illustration, I hadn't
bothered enlarging it.
It appears from that photo that the mystery track jogs back between the
exit ramps from the loops at its downhill end.
Victor Canfield
> Are there any Sanford fire maps showing the aerial layout of the ride?
Here is the line map (dated 1906), with the path of the tracks (not
including the mystery segment) added:
http://www.personal.psu.edu/vac3/temp/coney_loop.png
loading area, lift, first turn, loop: red
second circuit: blue
third circuit: green
enclosed portions (brake run, etc.): violet
Wolf
That's about what I thought.
I did notice that the mystery track doesn't exist in some illustrations of
the ride. Is it possible it was a later addition?
Victor Canfield
> That's about what I thought.
>
> I did notice that the mystery track doesn't exist in some illustrations of
> the ride. Is it possible it was a later addition?
>
Do you have any links for images without?
Wolf
Victor Canfield
>>> I did notice that the mystery track doesn't exist in some illustrations
>>> of the ride. Is it possible it was a later addition?
>>>
>> Do you have any links for images without?
>
> http://digital.nypl.org/mmpco/pcoimages/801279W.JPG
>
> http://www.coneyislandhistory.org/collection/index.php/ObjectDetail/Show/object_id/379/search_mode/search
>
> http://www.coneyislandhistory.org/collection/index.php/ObjectDetail/Show/object_id/231/search_mode/search
I agree that the mystery track is not visible in those photos, but
neither is the loop--I wouldn't conclude the absence of either in
street-level views from Surf Avenue.
Does anybody know the dates for the different entrance facades shown in
those photos? (At least one photo with the dome must date from the
period 1906-1910, since it shows the 1906+ entrance to the Thompson
scenic railway on the other side of Surf.)
Wolf
> Wolf wrote:
>
>>>> I did notice that the mystery track doesn't exist in some illustrations
>>>> of the ride. Is it possible it was a later addition?
>>>>
>>> Do you have any links for images without?
>>
>> http://digital.nypl.org/mmpco/pcoimages/801279W.JPG
>>
>> http://www.coneyislandhistory.org/collection/index.php/ObjectDetail/Show/object_id/379/search_mode/search
>>
>> http://www.coneyislandhistory.org/collection/index.php/ObjectDetail/Show/object_id/231/search_mode/search
>
> I agree that the mystery track is not visible in those photos, but neither
> is the loop--I wouldn't conclude the absence of either in street-level
> views from Surf Avenue.
This is true, but neither here nor there; the mystery track branches off the
lifthill turnaround. The viewability of the loop is irrelevant.
Victor Canfield
Except for the picture that included the ride down to the far end, none
of the photos from Surf Ave clearly shows the mystery track. That one
shows it, including a bit visible through the structure above the
descents into the loops, but it isn't clear to me precisely where it
attaches to the high turn after the lift. So the failure to see it in
other pictures from a similar angle (except closer to the ground)
doesn't seem persuasive.
(Actually, the first of the three photos may show a bit of the mystery
track as well, peeking through the entrance facade on the right side.
The second might be expected to show a bit, and doesn't, but that part
of the ride is particularly obscured in the third.)
In contrast, all of the photos that show the loop also show the mystery
track, although in derelict condition in one case.
Mike Parker
tickle some pickles around here. It's supposedly from Oktoberfest in
the 50's, possibly 1952 like it says.
http://www.britishpathe.com/record.php?id=81877
Makes my life flash before my eyes just seeing it :)
Derek Gee
news:hcnht3$s76$1...@news.eternal-september.org...
Is that a side-friction coaster???
Derek
mamoosh
> Is that a side-friction coaster???
Yes, except for the loop. If you freeze it at 13 seconds and 12 frames
(13:12) you'll notice how the cars are kept on the track while
negotiating the loop.
Wolf
"Derek Gee" <dgeeSP...@twmi.INVALID.rr.com> wrote in message
news:4aef85cf$0$5646$9a6e...@unlimited.newshosting.com...
Looks like, although I can't rule out a side-mounted upstop working off the
side board.
Mike Parker
I think I see upstops in just the loop(there's gotta be something),
however just the idea of a portable double looping wood side friction
coaster is creepy.
Wolf
>>>> tickle some pickles around here. It's supposedly from Oktoberfest in
>>>> the 50's, possibly 1952 like it says.
>>>>
>>>> http://www.britishpathe.com/record.php?id=81877
>>>>
>>>> Makes my life flash before my eyes just seeing it :)
>>> Is that a side-friction coaster???
>>>
>>> Derek
>>
>> Looks like, although I can't rule out a side-mounted upstop working off
>> the side board.
>>
>
> I think I see upstops in just the loop(there's gotta be something),
> however just the idea of a portable double looping wood side friction
> coaster is creepy.
Loop itself is metal, I think. I think I see how that upstop works now, too.
ri...@aol.com
> Similar but different, rather than start a new topic, I think this may
> tickle some pickles around here. It's supposedly from Oktoberfest in
> the 50's, possibly 1952 like it says.
Fascinating, since the conventional wisdom was that inversion coasters
were extinct between the teens and 1975. How many other forgotten
loopers are there?
Rik
Wolf
<ri...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:8bc20361-7b71-4848...@o9g2000prg.googlegroups.com...
Rik
--------------
There were a couple known to be operating in Europe. I've seen photos from
the 1930s of a couple. There may have been a few in the US that survived
into the Depression -- there were a *lot* of little parks in the US in the
1920s, and god knows how many poorly-documented roller-coasters. 1952 is new
to me for a looper.
CanobieFan
A quick trip to RCDB would also show this one, Praters wood looper -
http://rcdb.com/1780.htm ..With watersplash.
Coaster Enthusiasts of Canada
>Coney's Loop-the-Loop coaster (1901-1910) was a double-tracked ride
>which was apparently not raced, as photos of cars in the loops never
>of the lift (parallel to West Tenth), a high turn (at Surf), the drop
>into the loop, then some twists and turns at lower height.
>The puzzle is this: photos of the loop (for example,
>http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/0/0e/Loop_the_Loop,_Luna_Park,_Coney_Island.jpg)
> show what appears to be a single high track behind the lift, at the
>level of signage advertising the ride. Any ideas if that was an unused
>stretch of track, or an alternative path that bypassed the loop?
*** I didn't look at the photo, but might it be a track leading to the
loops?
Somewhere I believe I have a photo of a similar model that was in
Canada around the same era. I'll try to locate it to see if it shows a
wider-angle view.
Richard Bonner
Managing Director:
The Coaster Enthusiasts of Canada
www.CEC.chebucto.org
AlRx60
Canada) wrote:
Somewhere I believe I have a photo of a similar model that was in
> Canada around the same era. I'll try to locate it to see if it shows a
> wider-angle view.
>
> Richard Bonner
Here is the Topsy Turvy Railway in Canada. Not sure of the location or
year though.
http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2804/4081659860_b64b4e388e_o.jpg
KenR
Mike Parker
Thats odd, that loop almost appears to have a slightly clothoid shape.
Maybe they figured that out long before Schwarzkopf and/or Arrow started
to screw with that kind of thing.
Victor Canfield
> AlRx60 wrote:
<snip>
>> Here is the Topsy Turvy Railway in Canada. Not sure of the location or
>> year though.
>>
>> http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2804/4081659860_b64b4e388e_o.jpg
>>
>> KenR
>
> Thats odd, that loop almost appears to have a slightly clothoid shape.
> Maybe they figured that out long before Schwarzkopf and/or Arrow started
> to screw with that kind of thing.
Two 1901 patents (Prescott's and Green's) described noncircular vertical
loops. What surprises me is that 1950s-era German double looper whose
side-by-side loops are circular.
Mike Parker
Well, in 1986 A. Schwarzkopf whipped out Thriller with just about the
same maneuver from that double looper, also with nearly perfect circular
loops.
Victor Canfield
Ignoring energy dissipation, a body traveling in a circular path
experiences an acceleration 4G higher at the bottom of the circle than
the top. In the rider's frame of reference, right-side up at the bottom
and upside-down at the top, the difference is 6G. The effect is a
little smaller if the train is relatively long compared to the loop
size, but the vertical acceleration at the loop bottom is pretty
intense. Short answer--the Thriller's profile also surprises me.
Wolf
Some of it might be the angle of the photograph, too.
Wolf
Schwarzkopf was building circular loops into the 1980s. =)
Wolf
>>>> Maybe they figured that out long before Schwarzkopf and/or Arrow
>>>> started to screw with that kind of thing.
>>>
>>> Two 1901 patents (Prescott's and Green's) described noncircular vertical
>>> loops. What surprises me is that 1950s-era German double looper whose
>>> side-by-side loops are circular.
>>
>>
>> Well, in 1986 A. Schwarzkopf whipped out Thriller with just about the
>> same maneuver from that double looper, also with nearly perfect circular
>> loops.
>>
>> http://schwarzkopf.coaster.net/pictures/ES/ESthriller05.JPG
>
> Ignoring energy dissipation, a body traveling in a circular path
> experiences an acceleration 4G higher at the bottom of the circle than the
> top. In the rider's frame of reference, right-side up at the bottom and
> upside-down at the top, the difference is 6G. The effect is a little
> smaller if the train is relatively long compared to the loop size, but the
> vertical acceleration at the loop bottom is pretty intense. Short
> answer--the Thriller's profile also surprises me.
I've found the best way to understand Schwarzkopf is to think of him as
Traver but working in steel. (And with better engineering)
Coaster Enthusiasts of Canada
>On Nov 6, 11:00=A0am, c...@chebucto.ns.ca (Coaster Enthusiasts of
>Canada) wrote:
> Somewhere I believe I have a photo of a similar model that was in
>> Canada around the same era. I'll try to locate it to see if it shows a
>> wider-angle view.
>>
>> =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 Richa=
>rd Bonner
>Here is the Topsy Turvy Railway in Canada. Not sure of the location or
>year though.
>http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2804/4081659860_b64b4e388e_o.jpg
>KenR
*** Thanks for posting that link, Ken. I have been gigging and not had
a chance to look for my photo, but believe mine is of that same ride.
However, the photo I have may be from a different angle.
I too, have no location or year, but the clothing suggests 19-0s or
1910s.
Coaster Enthusiasts of Canada
> Somewhere I believe I have a photo of a similar model that was in
> Canada around the same era. I'll try to locate it to see if it shows
> a wider-angle view.
> Richard Bonner
*** I took a look here on my home system, but don't see the photo of
which I was thinking. It must be at work.
However, here is a link to a McCord Museum image. It may be of the
same ride.
http://www.mccord-museum.qc.ca/largeimages/025-1033.jpg
They place it as being from around 1900, but give no location. The
clothoid-type curvature of the loop is pretty evident.
Regarding the last point, I remember seeing a photo of twin loops from
that era, or perhaps into the 1910s or 20s, and they were not circular. So
someone worked out that a non-circular loop would reduce forces on the
riders and structure.
I also vaguely remember reading something about this with a comment
regarding sore necks from circular designs because riders' necks would
jerk as they entered the loop. As a result, the loop curvature was altered
for subsequent models.