FA: For Those Interested in the Advent of Transistors
David Stinson
1951 Sylvania- introduction to early crystal diodes with projects
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=2153000728
Really cool 1962 RCA Transistor Manual SC-10. Layed out like a tube
manual.
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=2152591200
First General Electric edition of a transistor manual, 1961.
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=2152591217
Thanks for looking.
Larry W4CSC
red dot on the case near the emitter wire. I found one in a friend's
junk box and confiscated it for old times sake. It STILL has an Hfe
of 80 and Icbo is way within specs for the point contact Ge device all
these many years later.
Looking at it, though, you can understand why technicians of the day
called it "a three-legged fuse"....(c;
On Mon, 06 Jan 2003 09:01:00 -0600, David Stinson <ar...@ix.netcom.com>
wrote:
Larry W4CSC and other fine old calls since 1957...
William Sommerwerck
point-contact. Indeed, by the time the CK-722 appeared, point-contacts were
obsolete for new designs.
Can anyone confirm or deny this?
I remember building a radio using a single CK-722.
Larry W4CSC wrote...
Larry W4CSC
<will...@nwlink.com> wrote:
>To the best of my knowledge, the CK-722 was junction transistor, not
>point-contact. Indeed, by the time the CK-722 appeared, point-contacts were
>obsolete for new designs.
>
>Can anyone confirm or deny this?
>
>I remember building a radio using a single CK-722.
>
Hmm...I assumed they were point contact because as memory serves me
all the others I had seen were point contact. Geez, I had the latest
technology and didn't even know it!
I'm always the last to know....
dale allen
http://www.geocities.com/ck722transistor/
Dale
"William Sommerwerck" <will...@nwlink.com> wrote in message
news:v1jla67...@corp.supernews.com...
Fred
> point-contact. Indeed, by the time the CK-722 appeared, point-contacts
were
> obsolete for new designs.
>
> Can anyone confirm or deny this?
It was a junction transistor. Point contact transistors really did not
last all that long in the timeline of transistor technology..
I have never understood why most explanations of transistor action used the
point contact devices for examples - and then gave the operating
characteristics of junction transistors.
Point contact transistors are really four layer devices with their "hook"
collector. A few early circuits made use of the latch-up properties of
these devices, but because they could not be manufactured reproducibly,
these designs were quickly abandoned.
Besides the point contact transistor, some other popular devices have
reached the almost extinct status: tunnel diodes, diacs, tetrode
transistors (lateral base contacts), and dual-gate mosfets. Some of these
are still being made - if you know where to look.
Fred
william_b_noble
no, it's not there
"Larry W4CSC" <nos...@home.com> wrote in message
news:3e19e505...@64.154.60.185...
Larry W4CSC
<william...@nospam.microsft'snetwork.com> wrote:
>I thought for sure I'd find the answer in my 67 RCA transistor manual, but
>no, it's not there
>
Too new. See the link to the CK722 website in this thread. It came
out in 1952! By the time your manual was written, it was ancient
history!
David Stinson
> Besides the point contact transistor, some other popular devices have
> reached the almost extinct status: tunnel diodes, diacs, tetrode
I've been told you can substitute for a dual-gate mosfet
by using to VMOS VN-10s to a third fet.
Anyone know any details about this?
D.S.
John Doty
<ar...@ix.netcom.com> wrote:
>> Besides the point contact transistor, some other popular devices have
>> reached the almost extinct status: tunnel diodes, diacs, tetrode
>> transistors (lateral base contacts), and dual-gate mosfets. ...
>
> I've been told you can substitute for a dual-gate mosfet by using to
> VMOS VN-10s to a third fet.
I don't know what you'd need a third FET for. A dual-gate MOSFET is
essentially just two MOSFETs in series, a FET cascode IC.
--
| John Doty "You can't confuse me, that's my job."
| Home: j...@w-d.org
| Work: j...@space.mit.edu
Scott Dorsey
Depends on the circuit. That might have too much gate capacitance to
use in an RF mixer stage, but it might be fine in a control circuit.
I do have a small box of dual-gate types around here somewhere if there
is a great need for them.
--scott
--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."
Michael Black
> "William Sommerwerck" <will...@nwlink.com> wrote in message
> news:v1jla67...@corp.supernews.com...
> > To the best of my knowledge, the CK-722 was junction transistor, not
> > point-contact. Indeed, by the time the CK-722 appeared, point-contacts
> were
> > obsolete for new designs.
> >
> > Can anyone confirm or deny this?
>
> It was a junction transistor. Point contact transistors really did not
> last all that long in the timeline of transistor technology..
>
it had an article about transistors; no it's not the infamous one
that said transistors could never amount to anything. It is written
by an RCA engineer, Richard Clay.
"Transistors have been available for quite some time", the article
begins, which is interesting because the discovery was only in December of
1947, and they already had time to get them into production. He laments
that there has been no standardization (but it was so early) and
"to avoid showing any preference toward any manufacturer the following
circuits are given without reference to a particular transistor".
"There are two types of transistors. The so-called 'point-contact'
type is made of a single crystal of n-type germanium. An electrode
called the 'base' is attached to one face and two closely spaced
contacts are made on the other face. These are called the 'emitter'
and 'collector'.
"The 'junction' transistor is formed of three layers of two types of
germanium. These may be arranged as n-p-n or p-n-p. The n-p-n is
the more common. In this type of transistor there are also three types
of connections. The base connection is made to the middle layer and
the emitter and collector connections are made to the outer layers.
"The junction type has higher power dissipation, lower noise, and
a cut-off frequency from 100KC to 1Mc. The point-contact type
has has higher current gain and a cut-off frequency from 1Mc
to 10Mc. Certain types of transistors have been made to oscillate
at frequencies up to 300Mc."
And then the article goes on to show various simple amplifiers and
oscillators, in that style of schematic that looks like early transistor.
I looked through the ads in the issue and can see no sign of transistors
for sale. I've read this article before, but can't say I really paid
attention to the fact that it was only 6 years after the transistor
was discovered. Just last month I was looking at some 1947 QSTs,
and for the first time I noticed a Sylvania ad for the 1N34.
Looking for something else last month, I found this page,
http://www.jmargolin.com/history/trans.htm which lists various
patents that show the almost fifty year road to the transistor.
The patent numbers are significant, because one can see the
actual patents online at the US patent office website at
http://www.uspto.gov
I haven't actually looked at the patents, but the article
mentions that what seems to be the junction transistor patent
was filed in September 1951, and issued in December 1952.
Michael
William Sommerwerck
> I've read this article before, but can't say I really paid
> attention to the fact that it was only 6 years after the
> transistor was discovered.
This is an urban legend that Bell Labs encouraged at one time, because they
wanted to play up the importance of basic research. To wit -- the transistor was
"discovered" when their scientists were doing research on the surface properties
of semiconductor materials -- research that had no practical use at the time.
This is simply not true. The transistor was a deliberate invention. Bell Labs
was looking for a solid-state replacement for vacuum tubes and systematically
went about finding it.
It's worth noting that at least two inventors claim to have invented the
field-effect transistor at least a decade earlier.
Michael A. Terrell
The CK-722 was made by Raytheon.
--
Michael A. Terrell
Central Florida
Bill Higdon
Bill Higdon
Casino
Russian physicists.
William Sommerwerck
The other principal claim was by Dr. Oskar Heil. He presented in the context of
story in which he talked a co-worker out of inventing the laser ("It has no
practical use.") so I'm inclined to believe him. But he has no proof, either.
John Doty
<will...@nwlink.com> wrote:
> I've heard this claim, but it has never been verified.
>
> The other principal claim was by Dr. Oskar Heil. He presented in the
> context of story in which he talked a co-worker out of inventing the
> laser ("It has no practical use.") so I'm inclined to believe him. But
> he has no proof, either.
>
>
>> The first transistor was a FET, discovered in the early 1920's by
>> Russian physicists.
A Russian-American colleague of mine tells me that one of his mentors back
in the old Soviet Union observed enhanced reverse conduction and negative
resistance in hyper-abrupt semiconductor junctions in the early 1950's. He
couldn't figure out what was going on, so he went on to something else. He
was miffed a few years later when Esaki invented the tunnel diode.
To turn a phenomenon into engineering you almost always need good science.
Empiricism is not enough.
Larry W4CSC
<will...@nwlink.com> wrote:
>I've heard this claim, but it has never been verified.
>
>The other principal claim was by Dr. Oskar Heil. He presented in the context of
>story in which he talked a co-worker out of inventing the laser ("It has no
>practical use.") so I'm inclined to believe him. But he has no proof, either.
>
>
As Einstein said, "If we knew what we were doing, we couldn't call it
research."
jakdedert
be at least one Nobel-worthy discovery made in his class every year...but
that nobody would recognize the significance of it; so it would pass
unnoticed.
jak
"John Doty" <j...@w-d.org> wrote in message
news:bCydnQQ4aKa...@speakeasy.net...
Larry W4CSC
<jde...@bellsouth.net> wrote:
>My high school chemistry teacher back in '69 told the class that there would
>be at least one Nobel-worthy discovery made in his class every year...but
>that nobody would recognize the significance of it; so it would pass
>unnoticed.
>
>jak
>
My high school chemistry teacher made some of the finest hooch back in
that enclosed ventilator I've ever had the pleasure of tasting. Once
hooked on a tiny taste, all he'd let us have, of his "special brew",
all chemistry students were so interested in the class, they forgot
the still perking away in the corner and learned more from this class
than all other classes combined. He was the finest teacher of any
year of students I ever met, including me. Many of his students went
on to careers in chemistry or physics, which he also taught. I
watched students totally disinterested in the droll rote memorization
that is the American High School stop their acting out and become so
enthralled with anything done in that classroom it turned their very
lives around.
Mr Dewey, a B-17 pilot from WW2 with many missions into harms way,
should have been preserved for cloning. God knows American Education
could sure use him, today.
jakdedert
rail these days (after making the evening news--maybe 'Nightline').
jak
"Larry W4CSC" <nos...@home.com> wrote in message
news:3e1f9231...@64.154.60.185...
Larry W4CSC
<jde...@bellsouth.net> wrote:
>*Very* innovative teaching method indeed...of course, he'd be run out on a
>rail these days (after making the evening news--maybe 'Nightline').
>
>jak
>
In his physics class, we all learned, first hand, about Nuclear energy
by removing his WW2 Radium-dial flyer's watch from his wrist to see
the effects of 25 years of gamma radiation on the human wrist. His
skin was physically discolored under the metal back of the watch and
gradually got lighter as you went away from the intense radium source
away from where the watch sat. THAT was quite a teaching tool, too!
The school had a licensed Strontium 90 source for the physics class he
arranged with a old flying friend who was a scientist at AEC. It was
kept in the school vault in a big lead container. When doing nuclear
demonstrations with the Geiger counter to show the alpha, beta and
gamma effects, he had to put his watch into the lead container and
close the lid to shield the measurements from its gamma radiation
because that watch you could read a newspaper with in the dark put out
MORE radiation than the licensed Strontium 90 source!
Even the disinterested girls in the class forced to take physics in
their Junior Year paid great attention in HIS physics classes. There
was NEVER any droll rote memorization of stupid terms to pass a test,
as there was in much of the rest of the school that I simply
hated.....like History, English Lit, yecch....I can't go on or I'm
gonna puke! I often wonder if History had been taught without the
"You'll do this or else" mentality if I would have been more
interested. History Channel is one of my favorite entertainments, in
spite of the continuous spammercials every 8 minutes for Pasta Pots.
William Sommerwerck
and testing seem to be necessary "sticks" to make sure the kids are working and
have learned something. It's a shame, because it often takes all the pleasure
out of learning.
Larry W4CSC wrote...
> Even the disinterested girls in the class forced to take physics in
> their Junior Year paid great attention in HIS physics classes. There
> was NEVER any droll rote memorization of stupid terms to pass
> a text, as there was in much of the rest of the school that I simply
> hated... like History, English Lit, yecch....I can't go on or I'm
Larry W4CSC
<will...@nwlink.com> wrote:
>Most children are naturally curious. The problem with education is that homework
>and testing seem to be necessary "sticks" to make sure the kids are working and
>have learned something. It's a shame, because it often takes all the pleasure
>out of learning.
>
All American educrats should be required to spend a year in Japan to
see why our country is in such decline and why Asians are quietly
taking over in all areas of technology, today.....
In order to get INTO school, in Japan, you must first QUALIFY. Only
the BEST and BRIGHTEST kids go to school and are rewarded with a good
life. COMPETITION to get into and COMPETITION to stay in school gives
students that incentive to work very hard and, consequently, do very
well. School teachers are not prison wardens in Japan, like they are
in most schools here, now. Students not interested in being students
are sent out to become the labor slaves our troublemakers are going to
become, anyway.
By the time a kid is out of elementary school, he knows what he wants
to be. I did. But, we force him into the socialist Liberal Arts
courses educrats use to get that check. How stupid! If a kid wants
to be a car mechanic, he should go to the finest car mechanic school
as soon as he's a teenager to become the finest car mechanic on earth.
If he wants to become a carpenter, he should go to carpenter school.
If he wants to be an asshole, we simply kick him out to be a common
laborer and prevent foreign labor from entering the country to take
his $1/hour job cleaning toilets. Minimum wage should be abolished.
All it has caused is the $2000 Chevy now costs $30,000 and is still
out of reach of minimum wage slaves. It causes gross inflation, which
government bureaucrats encourage because of the graduated tax
structure which gives them a higher percentage of GNP if they create
inflation.
The country would have the finest craftsmen, the finest doctors, the
finest businessmen in the world....instead of the school system and
educrats dragging it all into the sewer like it is today. Not every
student needs to be a college graduate specializing in some
unemployable major so he has to become a government bureaucrat
draining the rest of us for the rest of his life. Many protentially
productive kids are simply trashed by our liberal arts educational
system which gives them NO skills except to become college students.
How stupid.....
Steven Dinius
"dishonor" their family by not getting into the school they were supposed
to? They go nutz over it--why? Is education really the answer to everything?
Oh course, it's good...but really?
Steven
"Larry W4CSC" <nos...@home.com> wrote in message
news:3e219e5c...@64.154.60.185...
Bill M
> Yeah, Larry, but don't some of those kids KILL THEMSELVES and stuff if they
> "dishonor" their family by not getting into the school they were supposed
> to? They go nutz over it--why? Is education really the answer to everything?
> Oh course, it's good...but really?
>
> Steven
Yeah...but for every one of theirs there's a thousand of ours falling
off the deep end of the social spectrum.
Education is a discipline. We have decided that its not politically
correct to teach ONLY math, geography, English and the names of rocks.
We have chosen to have our educational system be selective and let some
kids simply learn "arts and ebonics" to graduate instead of studying.
As a result we are graduating kids from high school who cannot write a
coherent sentence.
We as a society not only lose the skills but we lose the discipline of
achievement..and then some of them become teachers.
The kicker was a couple weeks ago when Geo. Bush declared that he wanted
to see every kid learn to read and write by the Third Grade. Duh?!?
What kind of standard is that?
-Bill M
Steven Dinius
large vocabulary and post-college reading skills in third grade (no the
so-called IQ test doesn't peg me as a "genius" nor do I care for that
appellation). I let it slide in 7th grade and had a passable (barely) GPA of
2.02. I was an unmedicated bipolar and didn't care cuz it was boring (I
thought). I liked dances and cheerleaders (girls period). I read and read
and frittered away (you may be right). But those were the best times of my
life and I was always popular.
I went to our comm college too early and flunked out. Then when I found what
I wanted to do and fought my way back to a Pell grant (out of my pocket I
paid to restore it with 12 credit hours passed) and found a recording
engineering program--BAM! I lost my home for eight months! When I came back
I found that a new state law required instructors to have a degree in their
field. My hobbyist teacher was gone and a poser in his place. The students
left in droves and the program shut down. Then the tuition and expenses got
to be pathetic and I had no resources (or desire) to move. I was HALFWAY
done with the degree curriculum!
I have no respect for the CC anymore either--it's impossible for me to get
anything from them of use there and they let a $1 million dollar
embezzlement slip under their noses for how many years? Might I add an aside
that the $400K benefactors they renamed the administration building for were
my bosses for lawnmowing and they wouldn't give me a decent raise in 10
years of taking care of their lawn? Well that's another way OT story.
Tune in next week, kids and bring your 3D glasses!
Steven
"Bill M" <don'tspamm...@caribe.net> wrote in message
news:v23r6c6...@corp.supernews.com...
Fred Nachbaur
LOL! Guess he wants kids to achieve that which was impossible for him...
Cheers,
Fred
--
+--------------------------------------------+
| Music: http://www3.telus.net/dogstarmusic/ |
| Projects: http://dogstar.dantimax.dk |
| Googlism: "fred nachbaur is de hounddog al |
| rond de 380volt volledig stabiel" |
+--------------------------------------------+
John Doty
> All American educrats should be required to spend a year in Japan to see
> why our country is in such decline and why Asians are quietly taking
> over in all areas of technology, today.....
Your ideas are out of date. In the 1980's Japan seemed poised to overtake
the USA in technology, but in the last ten years they've fallen off the
pace.
>
> In order to get INTO school, in Japan, you must first QUALIFY. Only the
> BEST and BRIGHTEST kids go to school and are rewarded with a good life.
> COMPETITION to get into and COMPETITION to stay in school gives students
> that incentive to work very hard and, consequently, do very well.
> School teachers are not prison wardens in Japan, like they are in most
> schools here, now. Students not interested in being students are sent
> out to become the labor slaves our troublemakers are going to become,
> anyway.
I've been to Japan many times. I am a great admirer of much of Japanese
culture. I do a great deal of work with the Japanese space program. You
don't know what you're talking about. The system you describe is Japan's
greatest weakness, a system that programs students rather than teaching
them to think. The best universities undo the worst of the damage for
those lucky enough to make it there, but most of the rest never learn the
independence of thought that is necessary to create new technologies.
Your theory founders when you consider the fact that children of Asian
parents perform extremely well in American schools, far better on the
average than American kids, even if they've never spent a day in Asian
schools. Why? It appears to be because Asian parents don't have the
American cultural distaste for real learning, the idea that you only have
to study what interests you. I certainly see this at MIT, where an
unreasonably large fraction of the very highest achieving students are US
educated children of Asian immigrants. Asian parents and American schools
are an unbeatable combination.
> By the time a kid is out of elementary school, he knows what he wants to
> be. I did.
That's your problem. An elementary education is an inadequate foundation
for that sort of decision. The best EE I know has a degree in
biochemistry. The physics professor who got me interested in astrophysics
majored in music as an undergraduate.
> But, we force him into the socialist Liberal Arts
> courses educrats use to get that check.
We try to teach them to use a variety of tools to understand the world.
One of my favorite teachers was my sixth grade teacher, a man innocent of
scientific knowledge, but who could teach the wisdom of the ages through
literature. He introduced me to a poem I love: The Blind Men and the
Elephant by John Godfrey Saxe, a terrific antidote to the willful
ignorance of ideology.
> How stupid! If a kid wants to be a car mechanic, he should go to the
> finest car mechanic school as soon as he's a teenager to become the
> finest car mechanic on earth. If he wants to become a carpenter, he
> should go to carpenter school.
In a democracy he has to become a voter. He has to learn to judge the
issues rather than be gulled by those who tell him what he wants to hear.
> If he wants to be an asshole, we simply kick him out to be a common
> laborer and prevent foreign labor from entering the country to take his
> $1/hour job cleaning toilets.
You'd probably have considered Einstein an asshole. A high school dropout,
kind of an Edwardian proto-Hippie, he revolutionized physics. Beyond the
stuff he's more famous for, his work made it possible to understand
quantitatively how vacuum tubes work and laid part of the foundation for
the solid state physics revolution that led to the transistor. You like
electronics? Thank Einstein. Good thing he didn't have to clean toilets
for a living, eh?
> Minimum wage should be abolished. All it has caused is the $2000 Chevy
> now costs $30,000 and is still out of reach of minimum wage slaves. It
> causes gross inflation,
You apparently believe in discredited liberal economics. Friedman and his
fellow conservatives have made an unassailable case that wage policy has
nothing to do with inflation (which is why government wage/price controls
don't work). Monetary policy controls inflation. Even the Liberals teach
that now.
Larry W4CSC
>
>I've been to Japan many times. I am a great admirer of much of Japanese
>culture. I do a great deal of work with the Japanese space program. You
>don't know what you're talking about. The system you describe is Japan's
>greatest weakness, a system that programs students rather than teaching
>them to think. The best universities undo the worst of the damage for
>those lucky enough to make it there, but most of the rest never learn the
>independence of thought that is necessary to create new technologies.
One of those terrible students walked into one of my customer's
Steinway piano stores and very politely asked if she could play the 9'
Steinway the store rents out to concerts, etc., that's kept in the
center of the Steinway sales floor on display, otherwise. She was,
ummm...about 8? 9?....I had to crank down the artist's piano bench so
she could reach the pedals on the beast.
Our reward for being nice was both a classical and jazz concert for
the next 45 minutes, that would have made any large hall create a
standing ovation. Her "programming" was beautiful to listen to, and
not once did she play the Fur Elise all piano sales, service and
moving people grow to hate. Her grasp of the music of Duke Ellington
was simply amazing!
When she had completed her recital, she very courteously thanked us
for letting her play such a fine instrument. Hell, if it had been
mine, I would have followed her home so she'd have a practice piano
and when she was rich and famous she could pay me back. All the piano
sales people, all very practiced players themselves, refused to play
anything for the rest of the day for fear of being laughed at....(c;
>
>Your theory founders when you consider the fact that children of Asian
>parents perform extremely well in American schools, far better on the
>average than American kids, even if they've never spent a day in Asian
>schools. Why? It appears to be because Asian parents don't have the
>American cultural distaste for real learning, the idea that you only have
>to study what interests you. I certainly see this at MIT, where an
>unreasonably large fraction of the very highest achieving students are US
>educated children of Asian immigrants. Asian parents and American schools
>are an unbeatable combination.
Proving our problems really start at home and self-perpetuate because
American children are simply turned over to the educrats, while the
parents wash their hands of them for 12 years. Everybody should let a
government bureaucrat raise their kids, shouldn't they?
I agree that if you enter a classroom and there are 3 Asian kids, your
chances of being #4 in the class only rises if more of them don't show
up half way through the semester. You have 0 chance of being at the
head of the class. Genetics?
>
>> By the time a kid is out of elementary school, he knows what he wants to
>> be. I did.
>
>That's your problem. An elementary education is an inadequate foundation
>for that sort of decision. The best EE I know has a degree in
>biochemistry. The physics professor who got me interested in astrophysics
>majored in music as an undergraduate.
You are not talking about "normal" children. You are talking about
those, under my plan, who would still be in the academic school but
would graduate Grade 12 with the education of a college junior because
the car mechanics, plumbers, machinists, floor sweepers and toilet
cleaners would no longer be in the engineering class to hold everyone
headed for MIT back while the teacher tries to pour 4th grade English
into them, a futile effort because they could, frankly, in their
words, "Give a shit less."
None of your examples could have possibly failed in life. They are
the cream of the cream of the crop....
>
>> But, we force him into the socialist Liberal Arts
>> courses educrats use to get that check.
>
>We try to teach them to use a variety of tools to understand the world.
>One of my favorite teachers was my sixth grade teacher, a man innocent of
>scientific knowledge, but who could teach the wisdom of the ages through
>literature. He introduced me to a poem I love: The Blind Men and the
>Elephant by John Godfrey Saxe, a terrific antidote to the willful
>ignorance of ideology.
We try to teach them, a futile effort (see above quote), at the
EXPENSE of those who ARE interested. The classroom warden spends her
time trying to restore order, sending those children I like to call
"Inmates of Tomorrow" to the office for disposition and watching her
back in case any of the student drug dealers are "packing" today.
What the hell kind of environment is that? NOONE can possibly learn
anything while being taught on "The Yard" of a correctional
institution, which is exactly what most public high schools in major
cities looks like....barbed wire, cameras, metal detectors, full body
searches by uniformed police officers....
>
>> How stupid! If a kid wants to be a car mechanic, he should go to the
>> finest car mechanic school as soon as he's a teenager to become the
>> finest car mechanic on earth. If he wants to become a carpenter, he
>> should go to carpenter school.
>
>In a democracy he has to become a voter. He has to learn to judge the
>issues rather than be gulled by those who tell him what he wants to hear.
Is that the same government that thinks he's old enough to draft to
die in Vietnam but isn't man enough to drink Budweiser from a long
neck? One thing the Commies had right was sending all the university
staff out to a pig farm for a little reality check outside the grey
stone walls of academia.
>
>> If he wants to be an asshole, we simply kick him out to be a common
>> laborer and prevent foreign labor from entering the country to take his
>> $1/hour job cleaning toilets.
>
>You'd probably have considered Einstein an asshole. A high school dropout,
>kind of an Edwardian proto-Hippie, he revolutionized physics. Beyond the
>stuff he's more famous for, his work made it possible to understand
>quantitatively how vacuum tubes work and laid part of the foundation for
>the solid state physics revolution that led to the transistor. You like
>electronics? Thank Einstein. Good thing he didn't have to clean toilets
>for a living, eh?
Dr Einstein was, as was Thomas A Edison, a great promoter....of
himself. Do you really think a genius like that could go unrecognized
by any school bureaucrat? Would it really make a difference if he
was?
They refused to recognize, and the Smithsonian CONTINUES to refuse to
recognize, the genius of Nikola Tesla, who had to fight Edison and the
academics over AC power, arc and flourescent lighting, and the whole
list of his inventions, including the AC powering your computer.
Tesla wasn't ONE OF THEM. Do you think it would make any difference
if some government bureaucrat tried to train Tesla as a carpenter? I
don't think they would have mattered at all! Tesla's genius didn't
come from some "institution". Hell, the institutions didn't want
anything to do with some poor little kid from Eastern Europe.....He
wasn't even Jewish!
>
>> Minimum wage should be abolished. All it has caused is the $2000 Chevy
>> now costs $30,000 and is still out of reach of minimum wage slaves. It
>> causes gross inflation,
>
How long have you been out in a high school in, say, Boston....not
Cambridge where the elite live? Sneak out of MIT, put on some jeans
and go have a look. Drive on out into rural Maine to some high school
in the country, too.....not too close to the mansions on the
waterfront. It's a big country out there! Those boys are headed two
places....to the factories, if there are any left that are not closed
down or two work in some service industry if they are....or.....to war
as enlisted cannon fodder in the Middle East for the expert officer
corp to kill on the battlefield in a caste system as old as history.
We're not training them, properly, for either path they'll be taking.
We're preparing them to go to Harvard, the chance of which is near
ZERO, unless they get a job there as a plumber, carpenter or service
slave in the maintenance department.....for which they are not skilled
or trained.
I'm one of them, by the way. The most useful thing I did in high
school was learn how to TYPE! Boys took that elective to be near the
cutest girls. I could outtype any of them...(c;
Larry W4CSC
<don'tspamm...@caribe.net> wrote:
>
>The kicker was a couple weeks ago when Geo. Bush declared that he wanted
>to see every kid learn to read and write by the Third Grade. Duh?!?
>What kind of standard is that?
>
>-Bill M
>
Excellent post, Bill. I taught electronic technicians in a regional
technical education center, after the educrats had forced them to go
to 12 years of pre-liberal-arts and taught them to hate all education
in the process. I got students who were the dropout end of the
spectrum, by then. One Air Force Colonel said to me in front of my
school president, "What have YOU done to my SON?!" (I figured it had
been a pretty nice job, in spite of the awful low pay...but I was
ready at that moment to go back to work.) "My son has flunked every
math course he's ever taken! He HATED high school!", the colonel went
on to my immediate relief. "He came home from your class on the third
day and wanted me to buy him a SCIENTIFIC CALCULATOR?" The poor
colonel looked quite shaken. His son had never asked for an
educational tool, before. It came as quite a shock....
Question - Did any high school math teacher take the class out to the
flagpole to figure out how high it was during trig class? Did they
ever lay out an aeronautical chart and show them how to USE trig for
something USEFUL, instead of telling them this was a required course
for the diploma and you'd better damned well memorize it for the
test?!! No, they didn't. I always had to teach basic trig at the
beginning of my AC electronics/power phase because the students forgot
everything about trig they hated because the ONLY reason they needed
to "learn" it was because of the TEST. (By the way, the colonel
proved very useful for the next few years acquiring new aeronautical
charts for my trig refresher training from the local AFB..(c;) The
civil engineers soon forgot I had the old transit after they got their
new HP infrared distance meters...At least they never asked for it
back.
ROTE MEMORIZATION OF TERMS is no way to teach ANY kid ANY
subject...idiots! But, that's what a lot of high school classes are
all about. I asked a local high school history teacher what
historical sights he had taken the history students to, here in
historic Charleston, SC, where the Citadel Cadets had taken it upon
themselves to fire cannon at the startled Yankees in Ft Sumter at 0530
a few years back. I wanted to know why his classes never went to Ft
Sumter, Ft Moultrie, the United Daughters of the Confederacy Museum
loaded with REAL hardware they could touch and feel. I never got a
straight answer.
My kids got lots of hands-on training to become electronic
technicians. Some even got knocked on their asses with high voltage!
I hope Mr Tesla was watching....(c;
Ed Price
SNIP
> Is that the same government that thinks he's old enough to draft to
> die in Vietnam but isn't man enough to drink Budweiser from a long
> neck? One thing the Commies had right was sending all the university
> staff out to a pig farm for a little reality check outside the grey
> stone walls of academia.
SNIP
> Larry W4CSC and other fine old calls since 1957...
>
If you are referring to the example of Cambodia, then I believe they went a
bit further along the education continuum (unless you contend that 30% of
the Cambodians were academics).
Ed
WB6WSN
Ed Price
> On Sun, 12 Jan 2003 22:08:44 +0500, "John Doty" <j...@w-d.org> wrote:
SNIP
> They refused to recognize, and the Smithsonian CONTINUES to refuse to
> recognize, the genius of Nikola Tesla, who had to fight Edison and the
> academics over AC power, arc and flourescent lighting, and the whole
> list of his inventions, including the AC powering your computer.
> Tesla wasn't ONE OF THEM. Do you think it would make any difference
> if some government bureaucrat tried to train Tesla as a carpenter? I
> don't think they would have mattered at all! Tesla's genius didn't
> come from some "institution". Hell, the institutions didn't want
> anything to do with some poor little kid from Eastern Europe.....He
> wasn't even Jewish!
SNIP
> Larry W4CSC and other fine old calls since 1957...
Ah well, that explains a lot; you are a Tesla monomaniac. There should be a
new postulation, similar to the "Hitler" postulation; the first poster to
invoke Tesla in support of his arguments forfeits all further credibility.
Ed
WB6WSN
Larry W4CSC
wrote:
>I'm sorry. I was the lone exception who started reading at age two and had a
>large vocabulary and post-college reading skills in third grade (no the
>so-called IQ test doesn't peg me as a "genius" nor do I care for that
>appellation). I let it slide in 7th grade and had a passable (barely) GPA of
>2.02. I was an unmedicated bipolar and didn't care cuz it was boring (I
>thought). I liked dances and cheerleaders (girls period). I read and read
>and frittered away (you may be right). But those were the best times of my
>life and I was always popular.
>
Steven, if I could have made arrangements to take you out of the
boring classes and gotten you an apprenticeship at a broadcast station
or recording studio near your home, would you have been better off in
the 7th grade....even if it were only for one day a week or a couple
of times per month?
If you had had training in your field in high school, would it have
helped you get advanced training and better placement in your chosen
profession?
I've just look up on my wall at a picture taken by a private, elite
high school teacher of two boys in a tiny closet room through that
window in all the doors. The skinny nerd is standing next to a fatter
kid that's seated at an old teletype machine online through a telco
loop to a mainframe in a nearby college/university. Those boys were
very lucky they weren't subjected to what the average public high
school kid is subjected to...rote memorization and NO TOUCHING! The
picture is like looking at a nuclear weapon 50 microseconds before the
implosion sequence sets it off. The fat kid seated is Paul Allen.
The skinny nerd is the richest man in America, Bill Gates. The
caption is, "We just told it what to do and it did it!"...or something
like that.
The kids in PS 302 have an old Apple 2E, but their teacher has been
guarding it with her very life since the school got it back in 1996
after a long budget battle, and they're not allowed to touch it.....
Ed Price
SNIP
> I agree that if you enter a classroom and there are 3 Asian kids, your
> chances of being #4 in the class only rises if more of them don't show
> up half way through the semester. You have 0 chance of being at the
> head of the class. Genetics?
SNIP
> Larry W4CSC and other fine old calls since 1957...
Here in San Diego, we're doing a fine job of Americanizing various Asian
groups; we now have Vietnamese, Cambodian, Filipino and Laotian street
gangsters striving for the American Dream (or at least a piece thereof). I
doubt that many of them can find the area under the curve.
Ed
WB6WSN
Ed Price
SNIP
> ROTE MEMORIZATION OF TERMS is no way to teach ANY kid ANY
> subject...idiots!
SNIP
> Larry W4CSC and other fine old calls since 1957...
Rote memorization appears to be the way that most everyone learns their
primary language. I also believe that this method is appropriate for
subjects such as the alphabet and multiplication tables. A base of knowledge
must be programmed into a youngster's mind before you can move on the "why"
of further education or field experimentation.
I believe that the Japanese educational model (which you seem to praise
quite often) places very strong emphasis on rote memorization. Some would
even say that this is carried on for far too long, creating educated droids
with limited innovation abilities.
Ed
WB6WSN
Steven Dinius
now, and CC owns my favorite station of 32 years. I know the engineer for
Journal from 24 years back and he's anti AMS cuz he liked Kahn. Don't
misquote me, cuz I like him lots. There is a recording studio in Fruitland
that I've been meaning to call before they go away, and I'd love to record a
demo and get training. I have 6-7 songs in need of production and mostly
there. Did I mention the Sansui has a mic mixer and I could do one layer of
overdubbing with my $3.50 Sony ECM-99 one-point stereo microphone or a set
of headphones and my TEAC and Pioneer cassette decks in Dolby C HX Pro?
Perfect for my all voice "Stupid Alternative Song" (it's goofy, all right).
At least I THINK the mixer goes out to the tape monitor...then I can record
to CD and cassette again ad nauseum. Complicated yeah but it would work.
Wish I had a Tascam 8-track or 4-track cassette with dbx though.
Always wishing,
Steven
"Larry W4CSC" <nos...@home.com> wrote in message
news:3e2251a3...@64.154.60.185...
John Doty
> ROTE MEMORIZATION OF TERMS is no way to teach ANY kid ANY
> subject...idiots! But, that's what a lot of high school classes are all
> about.
It's precisely what they do in the Japanese system you like so much. It's
why Japanese students do so well on tests. However, the Japanese system is
not producing many independent thinkers: entrepreneurs like Morita and
Honda who gave US industry such a scare were the product of postwar chaos,
not the rigid tracking system of today.
William Sommerwerck
group consensus has been able to achieve so much. If the Japanese encouraged
truly original and independent thought...
John Doty wrote...
jakdedert
multiplication tables etc., after watching all three of my kids (so
far...the youngest is in kindergarten) struggle with the concept.
God, how I *hated* "2 x 2 is 4, 6 x 6 is 36" and so on! However, it's
second-nature to fire off the answer to any multp. question...before I even
think of it, it pops out. Maybe they eventually get the same result by
repetitive usage--hell, my son's in grad school (Ph.D. physics)--I doubt if
he has any trouble whipping off the answers to such questions, but....
jak
"John Doty" <j...@w-d.org> wrote in message
news:0sCcnUBoHsZ...@speakeasy.net...
Larry W4CSC
Mary Ford millionaires....(c;
Theirs was in their basement.
On Mon, 13 Jan 2003 00:44:28 -0700, "Steven Dinius" <10...@fmtc.com>
Larry W4CSC
>
>Rote memorization appears to be the way that most everyone learns their
>primary language. I also believe that this method is appropriate for
>subjects such as the alphabet and multiplication tables. A base of knowledge
>must be programmed into a youngster's mind before you can move on the "why"
>of further education or field experimentation.
But, should it be the way to teach electronics to adults? History to
late teens? Why? So they can answer the stupid questions on
Jeopardy?
>
>I believe that the Japanese educational model (which you seem to praise
>quite often) places very strong emphasis on rote memorization. Some would
>even say that this is carried on for far too long, creating educated droids
>with limited innovation abilities.
>
>Ed
>WB6WSN
>
I've been corrected. Humble pie isn't very tasty, is it?....
Mike Knudsen
writes:
>Wish I had a Tascam 8-track or 4-track cassette with dbx though.
I still use my Tascam Porta-One Ministudio (4-track dbx, no Dolby).
I'm glad to hear that someone else thinks this is a decent piece of gear.
I've used it to put out my son's two tape albums of folk-rock that he wrote and
performed himself, and now a friend wants his player pianos recorded, so ...
--Mike K. AA1UK
Oscar loves trash, but hates Spam! Delete him to reply to me.
William Sommerwerck
> But, should it be the way to teach electronics to adults?
> History to late teens? Why? So they can answer the stupid
> questions on Jeopardy?
And walk away with $50,000? Of course!
A recent wisecrack has it that the best reason for being well-educated is that
you "get" more jokes. For an example, see the 12/25/02 Zippy the Pinhead.
Wonderful!
John Doty
> Dr Einstein was, as was Thomas A Edison, a great promoter....of himself.
> Do you really think a genius like that could go unrecognized by any
> school bureaucrat? Would it really make a difference if he was?
It is a matter of historical record that Einstein's teachers did not
recognize his genius. He had to get the attention of the top physicists of
the time (particularly Lorentz and Planck) to have his talent recognized.
That would be even harder today, I think, and I wonder if things might
have come out differently if Lorentz had been prone to professional
jealousy.
> They refused to recognize, and the Smithsonian CONTINUES to refuse to
> recognize, the genius of Nikola Tesla, who had to fight Edison and the
> academics over AC power, arc and flourescent lighting, and the whole
> list of his inventions, including the AC powering your computer. Tesla
> wasn't ONE OF THEM.
I think Tesla is pretty well recognized: how many people have an SI unit
named for them? Tesla *was* a genius, but he had some very real flaws that
prevented that genius from reaching its full potential. His hydraulic
analogies led him to a clear vision of the technological applications of
induction, but they were not adequate to understand radiation. Without a
proper understanding of radiation, his wireless experiments could yield
spectacular demonstrations but could not be brought into the realm of
quantitative engineering.
Tesla apparently had no concept of an antenna. Any lump of conductor will
serve to some degree as an antenna, but efficient and predictable
performance of wireless devices requires antenna engineering. Hertz had
invented the antenna and had published a very detailed mathematical theory
of antennas, but Tesla denied that this work had any relevance (highly
abstract math was not Tesla's strength). Edison didn't let his scepticism
of academics prevent him from employing them and using their insights when
he needed them, but Tesla was too vain. Respect is a two way street.
I think there's a case to be made for a strong (if indirect) connection
between Tesla and Einstein. The textbooks like to claim that Einstein's
relativity theory was motivated by the failure of the Michelson-Morley
experiment to detect the ether, but if you read his original 1906 paper it
is very clear that he was much more influenced by the symmetry of
inductive phenomena: why does it make no difference whether you move the
magnet or the wire? This was not on the minds of professional physicists,
but Einstein undoubtedly encountered this frequently in his work reading
patent applications. That patent applications were full of inductive
technology in 1906 was the result of Tesla's technological revolution.
Steven Dinius
is)...
"John Doty" <j...@w-d.org> wrote in message
news:HgudnZTrWPl...@speakeasy.net...
Michael A. Terrell
>
> I guess that means Larry's off the hook and NOT a monomaniac ( whatever That
> is)...
All that most people know about Tesla is his reputation for being way
over the deep end towards the end of his life, rather than the basic AC
research he did in his prime.
--
Michael A. Terrell
Central Florida
Larry W4CSC
I still think it's a travesty that the Smithsonian refuses to display
Teslas wonderful inventions under the AC lighting that lights up,
ironically enough, the Edison display...(c;
Maybe if we feed Edison DC power to the Smithsonian building and
remove all of Tesla's AC they will change their minds.....???
Don't forget to remove the flourescent lighting, multiphase induction
motors, and all that AC stuff Edison used to electrocute cats with in
Central Park to try to show the public how dangerous it was.
Maybe the Smithsonian should get an original Edison AC
invention....the electric chair...from Auburn, NY's prison to display.
You hardly ever hear about Edison's electric chair invention, these
days....
It's probably best for the country that Tesla didn't have the
expertise in antenna design and construction. If he had, our
ancestors, probably, would have been FRIED with the RF from him and
you and I would have never been born!
His HAARP invention certainly has a nice looking antenna field....
What do you know about the HAARP weapon and its progress?
Larry W4CSC
Now that you mention it, I DO get an awful array of jokes from my
friends who are medical researchers at the Medical University of
SC....(c;
They all have several PhDs, each. But, that doesn't mean they aren't
inspired watching me fix the problem in their 20KW, 4-cyl, diesel
genset aboard their Hatteras yacht...or solve the problem of why the
connectors on the 5 AC compressors keeps burning off from all the
corrosion in the bilge by SOLDERING the wires to the compressor
connector tabs....
We each have our place. I do love carrying their credit card to West
Marine, however, to buy things for their yachts...(c;
Roger Halstead
>On Mon, 13 Jan 2003 06:17:08 GMT, "Ed Price" <edp...@cox.net> wrote:
>
>>
>>Rote memorization appears to be the way that most everyone learns their
>>primary language. I also believe that this method is appropriate for
Having come in late and finding the only posts which I can read start
here:
I think the "primary language" learning is a bit different than what
we call "rote". It's quite a complex issue.
>>subjects such as the alphabet and multiplication tables. A base of knowledge
>>must be programmed into a youngster's mind before you can move on the "why"
>>of further education or field experimentation.
Even beyond the teens and into adult life, there are many functions in
math (particularly trig) that must be memorized. The same is true even
in Calculus. (Even beyond Calc one and two)
>
>But, should it be the way to teach electronics to adults? History to
Some subjects require a bit of both.
As far as electronics the "basics" need to be memorized, such as Power
= IE (remembered as Power = "PIE"). , It's also P = I^2*R, so R =
P/I^2 and I^2 = P/R, or I =SQRT(P/R) From there you can get
all the other power and voltage rules
Many times it is sufficient to remember that every doubling of power
is 3 db (or close enough to answer any practical question)
However, some where along the line you would have to have learned how
to manipulate the formulas.
The person testing in electronics who knows the basics and has the
ability to manipulate the formulas, has a distinct advantage over the
person who has to memorize all the questions.
OTOH, some are very good at memorization.
There is a whole field (used to be called neumotechniques) based on
the art of memorization. I don't think that neumotechniques is even in
the dictionary now and no, I don't remember what they call it. <LOL>
>late teens? Why? So they can answer the stupid questions on
>Jeopardy?
The history we learn as High school students and more so at the
college level is supposed to give us a basis on which to make
judgements. WE are supposed to learn from history and thus not repeat
the mistakes of the past.
Unfortunately, it seems as if few adults paid any attention to history
and we are now doomed to repeat the mistakes of the past,... just like
those before us have done.
The history taught in college is not the sanitized stuff taught in the
lower levels. We get to find out just how much luck played a part in
many great battles, how some of our great forefathers won battles due
to just plain dumb luck and how great a tacticians some others may
have been.
Take for instance the great crusades we were taught about in Sunday
School...In college you find out just how radical and violent they
were. That and many of the crusaders were convicted felons turned
loose to fight...Or they could rot in jail.
>>
>>I believe that the Japanese educational model (which you seem to praise
>>quite often) places very strong emphasis on rote memorization. Some would
>>even say that this is carried on for far too long, creating educated droids
>>with limited innovation abilities.
Rote memorization is the basis for the foundation on which the rest of
our education is built. Without a good solid foundation it is as
difficult to build an education as it is a house without a solid
foundation.
However, once the foundation is built, reasoning powers are brought
into play. Each subject progresses at a different pace and will
probably still contain some rote memorization. Each individual learns
differently as well...
Therefore, there is no such thing as treating all students the same.
To do so will hold some back, push some so hard they become
discouraged, and others will fit right in. Unfortunately, in many
cases it is unfeasible from an economic, or personnel standpoint.
It would take at least 4 to 6 years to give a person a well rounded
education without singling out any specific topic and another four to
specialize. Not many families could afford that, even IF the student
were willing. Given that the goal of most students is to survive high
school. Of those that do go on to college, they overwhelmingly choose
the humanities, instead of science.
It used to be that high school was to prepare us to go out and get a
good job, now it only prepares up to go to college, or in some
instances, learn a trade.
I was 47 when I quite work and went to college full time...It was well
worth it even if I never did make back all the extra money it cost. It
was also at a time when I could appreciate the subjects, be they
History, Anthropology, Art, Math, or Computer science.
Now, as this is in an Amateur Radio Group, I'm going to make the
assumption (I can't bring up the rest of the thread on line or in
Google) that this probably started about memorizing the test questions
for the different license classes.
Memorizing the questions, out of context and without the rest of the
subject does very little to demonstrate anything other than that
persons ability to memorize. It does not demonstrate that persons
qualifications at any thing other than passing the test, BUT...
Neither does it say the person doesn't have the qualifications to
become a good ham.
How we handle tests and how we conduct ourselves on-the-air have no
relation to one another. Just listen to 3.895 and many other
frequencies for a while... Many of those operators have reached the
highest level licenses...That is not saying that every one operating
on 3.895 misbehaves.
Roger Halstead (K8RI EN73 & ARRL Life Member)
www.rogerhalstead.com
N833R World's oldest Debonair? (S# CD-2)
Mike Knudsen
writes:
>Hertz had
>invented the antenna and had published a very detailed mathematical theory
>of antennas, but Tesla denied that this work had any relevance (highly
>abstract math was not Tesla's strength).
Although you can intuitively understand a dipole antenna (or a monople with a
good ground plane) by analogy with an organ pipe or guitar string. Helmholtz'
acoustic theories were well published by then, though probably also shrouded in
gobs of ungainly equations. --Mike K.