Is 'w' ever a vowel
Jeff Young
What exactly are all the rules for any letter being a vowel? Can the
traditional vowels ever be consonents? (And what about the reverse
question.) I thought that I remembered that somehow 'w' could be a
vowel.
Jeff
j...@cray.com
Crunchy Frog
j...@yahweh.cray.com (Jeff Young) writes:
Only if you allow Welsh ("cwm" and other bizarre looking constructions with
far too many l's and d's for right thinking people) into the game, which
I regard as cheating (hey, if Welsh why not Polish or Czech.... two languages
with far less than the normal quota of vowels).
>Jeff
>j...@cray.com
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Mark Joseph Bylander
>In article <1992Mar12.0...@hemlock.cray.com>
> j...@yahweh.cray.com (Jeff Young) writes:
>>What exactly are all the rules for any letter being a vowel? Can the
>>traditional vowels ever be consonents? (And what about the reverse
>>question.) I thought that I remembered that somehow 'w' could be a
>>vowel.
>Only if you allow Welsh ("cwm" and other bizarre looking constructions with
>far too many l's and d's for right thinking people) into the game, which
>I regard as cheating (hey, if Welsh why not Polish or Czech.... two languages
>with far less than the normal quota of vowels).
cwm is apparantly well-used as a mountaineering term.
cwth is some sort of musical instrument.
Both of these terms appear in many English Dictionaries.
Some would argue that the 'w' in 'how' or 'cow' or 'row' forms a dipthong,
and so is a vowel here. Apparantly the only independent uses of 'w' as a
vowel are in words borrowed directly from a foreign language.
Mark Bylander
D. Gerdemann
Greg Lauer
My second grade teacher used to say that the vowels were "a, e, i, o, u,
sometimes y and w as in vacuum"
S Berbeco
>and so is a vowel here. Apparantly the only independent uses of 'w' as a
>vowel are in words borrowed directly from a foreign language.
>
>Mark Bylander
The common American English /w/ sound is a voiced velar-bilabial central
approximant, which makes it most definitely a consonant. To break down
what this means:
'voiced' means that you use your vocal tract, much like
the difference between the voiced /d/ and voiceless /t/.
'velar-labial' is the placement of the sound, in this
case both at the back of the mouth (near the velum) and
the front lips (labial).
'central approximant' is the manner of the sound, here
similar to the cent. approx. /r/, which is similar to
/w/ in all aspects except placement (at the alveolar
ride, in this case).
To say that /ow/ is a diphthong would be, phonetically, the same as
calling /ar/ in 'car' a diphthong. Yes, one sound glides into the
next, but that's what language generally does. :)
Now, I would be most interested if someone who knows Gaelic well could
tell me if the 'w' in the aforementioned 'cwm' is the same sound as the
American English /w/, or if it has another sound but uses the same
orthography.
Charles Evans
>j...@yahweh.cray.com (Jeff Young) writes:
I remmeber in my First or Second Grade Spelling book said vowels were
A E I O U and sometimes Y and W.. never has anyone until these readings
told me such words existed.. Everyone says I remembered 'incorrectly'
thx for clearing that up!
chuck
--
Charles E. Evans / o / Whereforeseeingwealsoarecompassedabout
ce...@ra.msstate.edu / ./|\ / withsogreatacloudofwitnesses,letuslayaside
ce...@isis.msstate.edu / /|' / everyweight,andthesindothsoeasilybesetus,
ce...@msstate.bitnet / , ' / andletusRUNwithpatiencetheracethatissetB4us.
Bob Morris
>
>
>Can the traditional vowels ever be consonents? (And what about the reverse
>question.)
In my humble non-professional-linguist's opinion, "R" is a vowel. Always.
Take for example, words like bird and turtle. Their conventional spelling
contains the traditional vowels only to force them to obey the rule that
every syllable must have a vowel. The "i", "u" and "e" are all silent!
Their true pronunciations are brd and trtl. Hmmm. I guess "L" is a vowel,
too.
But realistically, the designation of vowel is not based in reality, it
is based in rules. The rule is that aeiou(y) are vowels, so "R" and "L"
are not. Adding silent vowels to make spelling follow rules is time-
honored way of changing reality to follow rules. Probably invented and
definitely perpetuated by schoolteachers.
Followups to...naah, don't bother following up.
Bob Morris (no silent letters, except maybe one of the r's)
aka mor...@anasaz.UUCP
anasaz!mor...@asuvax.eas.asu.edu
My opinions only, of course...
S Berbeco
>j...@yahweh.cray.com (Jeff Young) writes:
>>
>>
>>Can the traditional vowels ever be consonents? (And what about the reverse
>>question.)
>
>In my humble non-professional-linguist's opinion, "R" is a vowel. Always.
>Take for example, words like bird and turtle. Their conventional spelling
>contains the traditional vowels only to force them to obey the rule that
>every syllable must have a vowel. The "i", "u" and "e" are all silent!
>Their true pronunciations are brd and trtl. Hmmm. I guess "L" is a vowel,
>too.
Interesting way of looking at it, Bob, but try this: what is the
difference between 'board' and 'bird'? If /r/ were a vowel, and the
only vowel being pronounced, then these two would sound the same.
/r/ is a tricky sound because it needs a vowel (ie, air passing through
the oral cavity) to be heard. Likewise with /l/, not to mention a whole
slew of other, as these are called, central and lateral approximants.
There are five basic types of sounds:
'plosive', such as /b/ or /g/, which uses a short burst
of air (ergo, plosive) with the tongue at a particular
place in the mouth to be heard.
'nasal', such as /m/ or /n/. you can figure this out.
'fricative', such as 'sh' or 'th', where air moves and
creates friction within the mouth, from which we get
the actual sound.
'approximant', such as the /r/ and /l/ above.
'vowel', which are differentiated by lip-rounding,
placement of the tongue, and open-ness of the jaw.
end o'lecture. :)
Noam Elkies
>In my humble non-professional-linguist's opinion, "R" is a vowel. Always.
>Take for example, words like bird and turtle. Their conventional spelling
>contains the traditional vowels only to force them to obey the rule that
>every syllable must have a vowel. The "i", "u" and "e" are all silent!
>Their true pronunciations are brd and trtl. Hmmm. I guess "L" is a vowel,
>too.
W.V.Quine makes a similar point in _Quiddities_, and also observes that in
Czech "r" indeed is a vowel in such words as "krk", where it is pronounced
rather like your "brd" above, mutatis mutandis.
As to how "w" is pronounced in Welsh, when we sang some Welsh folk-songs
here some years back we were told to pronounce "w" as "oo". This doesn't
necessarily mean that this is how the letter is pronounced in normal speech
(recall that silent French e's are often pronounced as schwas when sung).
Note, though, the English cognate "coomb" of the infamous "cwm".
--Noam D. Elkies (elk...@zariski.harvard.edu)
Department of Mathematics, Harvard University
David Brooks
In my humble non-professional-linguist's opinion, "R" is a vowel. Always.
Take for example, words like bird and turtle. Their conventional spelling
contains the traditional vowels only to force them to obey the rule that
every syllable must have a vowel. The "i", "u" and "e" are all silent!
Their true pronunciations are brd and trtl. Hmmm. I guess "L" is a vowel,
too.
Not in English RP. I say "b@d", "t@tl" (@ sign is conveniently like a
schwa). American RP, to the extent it exists, pronounces the R by closing
the tongue on the palate. Scots gets closer to the latin trilled or
flapped "r" with a purer vowel.
It's tough getting a chorus of mixed English and Americans to pronounce
Latin properly :-)
--
David Brooks dbr...@osf.org
Systems Engineering, OSF uunet!osf.org!dbrooks
Bennett
>In my humble non-professional-linguist's opinion, "R" is a vowel. Always.
>Take for example, words like bird and turtle. Their conventional spelling
>contains the traditional vowels only to force them to obey the rule that
>every syllable must have a vowel. The "i", "u" and "e" are all silent!
>Their true pronunciations are brd and trtl. Hmmm. I guess "L" is a vowel,
>too.
This could be true...depending on your accent. If I tried to say "trtl" I'd
end up with "trittle" or something...Americans tend to pronounce the "r" sound
even when the "r" effectively forms part of a diphthong (as in "bird").
Also what about "bard", "beard", "board", "bared", etc.?
>Followups to...naah, don't bother following up.
Ooops, too late.
>Bob Morris (no silent letters, except maybe one of the r's)
Bennett. (pr. "benit")
--
== Bennett ================================== mce...@wampyr.cc.uow.edu.au ==
| ...just one psychological drama after another... |
=============================================================================
K.HAIGH-HUTCHINSON
who presumably in her turn learned from her grandmother.
Are there any readers from West Wales who could enlighten me?
The w in cwm is pronounced (so I am told) as a cross between u and
oo. The 'u' sound is the closest. But in Swfrydd the w is closer to the
English 'o' Swf is pronounced Sov as in Sovreign. The Welsh word Aberthaw
(The Welsh name for the English named Swansea) has w in a dipthong but I can
not recall w being used as a consonant in Welsh or pronounced w as in watch.
Kathy Haigh Hutchinson
Bradford University
(Mothers family from the Sirhowy valley in Mid Wales)
Bob Morris
>morris@anasaz (Bob Morris) writes:
>>
>>In my humble non-professional-linguist's opinion, "R" is a vowel. Always.
>>Take for example, words like bird and turtle. Their conventional spelling
>>contains the traditional vowels only to force them to obey the rule that
>>every syllable must have a vowel. The "i", "u" and "e" are all silent!
>>Their true pronunciations are brd and trtl. Hmmm. I guess "L" is a vowel,
>>too.
>
>Interesting way of looking at it, Bob, but try this: what is the
>difference between 'board' and 'bird'? If /r/ were a vowel, and the
>only vowel being pronounced, then these two would sound the same.
Simple. 'board' has two vowels (/o/ & /r/); 'bird' has only one (/r/).
These two words are identical, in fact, except for the addition of the
additional /o/ sound. The 'bir' combination in 'bird' sounds EXACTLY
like the 'br' combination in 'brought'. The I is SILENT and included
ONLY to make the syllable contain a vowel.
>There are five basic types of sounds:
> 'plosive', 'nasal', 'fricative', 'approximant', 'vowel'
You sound like a linguist. OK, the first three are consonants, the last
two are vowels. (I'll assume that 'approximant' is French for
'approximately a vowel' :-) This just goes to show how arbitrary our
designations of vowels/consonants really are. This is true to an even
greater extent for spelling, which is almost totally arbitrary. It
continually amazes me that something so arbitrary is considered to be so
right and wrong.
But then, I never have been too excited about obeying arbitrary rules...
Bob Morris
S Berbeco
>tz...@castle.ed.ac.uk (S Berbeco) writes:
>>morris@anasaz (Bob Morris) writes:
>>>
>>>In my humble non-professional-linguist's opinion, "R" is a vowel. Always.
>>>Take for example, words like bird and turtle. Their conventional spelling
>>>contains the traditional vowels only to force them to obey the rule that
>>>every syllable must have a vowel. The "i", "u" and "e" are all silent!
>>>Their true pronunciations are brd and trtl. Hmmm. I guess "L" is a vowel,
>>>too.
>>
>>Interesting way of looking at it, Bob, but try this: what is the
>>difference between 'board' and 'bird'? If /r/ were a vowel, and the
>>only vowel being pronounced, then these two would sound the same.
>
>Simple. 'board' has two vowels (/o/ & /r/); 'bird' has only one (/r/).
>These two words are identical, in fact, except for the addition of the
>additional /o/ sound. The 'bir' combination in 'bird' sounds EXACTLY
>like the 'br' combination in 'brought'. The I is SILENT and included
>ONLY to make the syllable contain a vowel.
No, 'bir' and 'br' are different sounds. Although very unscientific,
try saying each one very slowly -- you'll notice that the 'bir' sounds
fine alone, yet the 'br' (assuming you're trying to say 'brought' but
cut off before the 'ought') is shorter and seems to be lacking something
immediately after the 'r'.
What's happening here is that the 'r' "rolls" into or out of a vowel.
You pronounce /r/ something like the /ir/ in 'bird', I'm assuming. What
happens when you move your lips a little closer together while making
what you call the 'r-vowel'? Or moving the tongue back a little in the
mouth? The sound changes! But the /r/ is still there -- you're
changing the vowel that is working *with* the 'r'.
>>There are five basic types of sounds:
>> 'plosive', 'nasal', 'fricative', 'approximant', 'vowel'
>
>You sound like a linguist. OK, the first three are consonants, the last
>two are vowels. (I'll assume that 'approximant' is French for
>'approximately a vowel' :-)
'Approximant' is so called because the tongue moves *near* to a
placement for a plosive/nasal/fricative, but doesn't actually reach it.
Try comparing /d/ to /r/ -- you'll notice that the tongue *almost*
touches the upper part of the mouth in /r/, where /d/ rests.
Let me pull Chomsky and Halle into this, 'cause their explanations are
more in tune to what computer people like to deal with. They view
phonetics as a binary system: your tongue is +here or -here, +there or
-there (to simplify a lot). Here's what they've come up with (and this
is what's considered to be "law" by most linguists):
+Consonant -Consonant
+Vowel approximants vowels
-Vowel consonants 'r'
(Where 'Consonant' carries characteristics of consonants, 'Vowel' of
vowels; go back a few posts for definitions of each.)
In essence, you're correct: approximants *are* in some ways vowels, in
that they need tongue placement and lots of air going through the mouth.
But to call them (or 'r') simply vowels is incorrect.
> This is true to an even
>greater extent for spelling, which is almost totally arbitrary. It
>continually amazes me that something so arbitrary is considered to be so
>right and wrong.
I won't argue against you about the English spelling system. It's so
screwed, I'm always amazed whenever any foreigner can speak our
language. Though the spelling rules seem to be arbitrary (you think
*this* is bad, try going back before Webster, when any spelling was
considered correct!), the definitions of sounds are not.
Geoffrey Hazel
I recall from my earliest childhood hearing a rhyme for vowels:
a - e - i - o - u and sometimes Y and W.
I thought it came from "wind in the willows" but subsequent searches
came up empty.
So I add to the question: is W ever a vowel? ( it certainly must be a rare
occurence).
--
Geoff Hazel | Haven't you got some real work to get
gah...@bcsaic.boeing.com | done now?
Tony Mountifield
> In article <1992Mar12.0...@hemlock.cray.com> j...@yahweh.cray.com (Jeff Young) writes:
> >
> >
> >What exactly are all the rules for any letter being a vowel? Can the
> >traditional vowels ever be consonents? (And what about the reverse
> >question.) I thought that I remembered that somehow 'w' could be a
> >vowel.
> >
> >
> >Jeff
> >j...@cray.com
>
>
> I recall from my earliest childhood hearing a rhyme for vowels:
> a - e - i - o - u and sometimes Y and W.
> I thought it came from "wind in the willows" but subsequent searches
> came up empty.
> So I add to the question: is W ever a vowel? ( it certainly must be a rare
> occurence).
Well it certainly is in the Welsh language, but I can't offhand think of
an English word where it is.
I think it could be argued, however, that the so-called consonantal
sounds of W and Y could be analyzed into juxtaposed vowel sounds.
Comments? (I suppose this is getting a bit out of puzzles......)
Tony.
--
Tony Mountifield (G4CJO) | Microware Systems (UK) Ltd.
Email: to...@microware.co.uk | Colden Common, WINCHESTER, SO21 1TH.
(or: ...!uknet!mwuk!tony) | Tel: 0703 601990 Fax: 0703 601991
------------------------------------------------------------------------
** Any opinions are mine, not Microware's - but you knew that anyway. **
------------------------------------------------------------------------
David Henderson
>>What exactly are all the rules for any letter being a vowel? Can the
>>traditional vowels ever be consonents? (And what about the reverse
>>question.) I thought that I remembered that somehow 'w' could be a
>>vowel.
>>
>>Jeff
>>j...@cray.com
>I recall from my earliest childhood hearing a rhyme for vowels:
>a - e - i - o - u and sometimes Y and W.
>I thought it came from "wind in the willows" but subsequent searches
>came up empty.
>So I add to the question: is W ever a vowel? ( it certainly must be a rare
>occurence).
Think about what you wrote: voWel. Say it... (vou'l is how I'd say it). There
you go. "W" can be a vowel. Then again, "h" could be, too. "Honest," for
example. (I'd say on-ist). So I guess the list should be:
A - E - I - O - U - Many times Y - Sometimes W - Occasionally H
David Henderson
dav...@camelot.bradley.edu
Corby Anderson
>So I add to the question: is W ever a vowel? ( it certainly must be a rare
>occurence [sic]).
The only example of this I can think of (off the top of my head) is
"cwm", which is one of those foreign words you find in American
dictionaries. It's Welsh, and it is a "small hollow, often containing
a small lake, occurring at the upper end of a mountain valley"
(American Heritage Dictionary [ick])