Rare Entries Contest MSB66 begins
Mark Brader
already -- I want to get it wrapped up before we get too close
to Christmas.
As always, reply ONLY BY EMAIL to m...@vex.net; do not post to any
newsgroup. Entries must reach here by Saturday, December 19, 2009.
(by Toronto time, zone -5). See below the questions for a detailed
explanation, which is unchanged from last time.
------------------------------------------------------------------------
0. Name an English "question word" (like "when") that *does not*
start with the two letters "wh". (See rule 4.3.2.)
1. Name a country now existing with a usual short name that
contains the letter Q (yes, this includes "q"). (See rule
4.1.1.)
2. Name one of the genders that exist in conventional English
grammar.
3. Sometimes an object is manufactured with one or more holes
in it, intended for use in joining it to one or more additional
objects (also with such holes) in a single assembly, either
rigidly or flexibly. This joining is done by passing an
additional object (the "fastener") through the holes so that
both objects are retained by the fastener. Once inserted,
the fastener may itself be held in place by applying additional
objects or by somehow changing its shape.
Give a single word used in English for a type (not a brand)
of object, one of whose intended uses is as a "fastener" as
described here.
4. Give a word of exactly 2 syllables that names a color in English.
Any words with multiple pronunciations having different numbers
of syllables do not count. (And again, see rule 4.3.2.)
5. Name a complete or partial date which forms the *full title* of
a movie listed in the Internet Movie Database. This refers to
the title shown near the top of the IMDB's main page on the
movie: by IMDB rules that should normally be the full title
used in the movie's original release. You *must* indicate the
specific IMDB listing for the movie, either by giving the full
title and year of release as rendered in the IMDB, or by URL.
For example, if "Up" was a date, your answer might be "Up (2009)"
or "http://us.imdb.com/title/tt1049413/".
Different answers referring to titles whose meaning as a date
is the same will be taken as equivalent. (Also, see rule 4.2.)
6. Name a sports trophy that has been awarded at least 75 times,
and currently is the prize awarded more or less annually for a
championship contended by professional teams. It is all right
if the physical trophy awarded has not been the same one every
time, or if the exact name has changed, so long as they are
understood as being the same award.
7. Name a river that drains an area incorporating at least part
of four or more different countries. (Again, see rule 4.1.1.)
8. Name a person meeting the following description. At some time
after 1357 he was King of England, or of the UK; and immediately
after his death, it was not the case that one of his children
had succeeded to the throne.
9. Give a word that is a given name or surname of a "famous"
person and also a short name of a present-day country (again,
rule 4.1.1).
"Famous" is to be measured by Google counts. Your answer *must*
include a set of three Google search terms: [1] the person's year
of birth (or an alleged year of birth, if there is conflicting
information), [2] a word somehow indicating why or how the person
is famous, and [3] the person's name (as a phrase, including at
least one given name and the surname). The first page of Google
results for this search must indicate that there are "about"
at least 1,000 hits. For example, if there was a country named
"Harrison" or "Ford", then you might give:
1942 actor "Harrison Ford"
Different answers referring to the same country will be taken
as equivalent.
------------------------------------------------------------------------
* 1. The Game
As usual, for each of the questions above, your objective is to give
an answer that (1) is correct, and (2) will be duplicated by as FEW
other people as possible. Feel free to use any reference material
you like to RESEARCH your answers; but when you have found enough
possible answers for your liking, you are expected to choose on your
own which one to submit, WITHOUT mechanical or computer assistance:
this is meant to be a game of wits.
* 2. Scoring
The scores on the different questions are MULTIPLIED to produce a
final score for each entrant. Low score wins; a perfect score is 1.
If your answer on a category is correct, then your score is the number
of people who gave that answer, or an answer I consider equivalent.
A wrong answer, or a skipped question, gets a high score as a penalty.
This is the median of:
- the number of entrants
- the square root of that number, rounded up to an integer
- double the highest score that anyone would have on this
question if all answers were deemed correct
* 2.1 Scoring Example
Say I ask for a color on the current Canadian flag. There are
26 entrants -- 20 say "red", 4 say "blue", and 1 each say "gules",
"white", and "white square". After looking up gules I decide it's
the same color as red and should be treated as a duplicate answer;
then the 21 people who said either "red" or "gules" get 21 points
each. The person who said "white" gets a perfect score of 1 point.
"White square" is not a color and blue is not a color on the flag;
the 5 people who gave either of these answers each get the same
penalty score, which is the median of:
- number of entrants = 27
- sqrt(27) = 5.196+, rounded up = 6
- double the highest score = 21 x 2 = 42
or in this case, 27.
* 2.2 More Specific Variants
On some questions it's possible that one entrant will give an answer
that's a more specific variant of an answer given by someone else.
In that case the more specific variant will usually be scored as if
the two answers are different, but the other, less specific variant
will be scored as if they are the same.
In the above example, if I had decided (wrongly) to score gules as a
more specific variant of red, then "red" would still score 21, but
"gules" would now score 1.
However, this rule will NOT apply if the question asks for an answer
"in general terms"; a more specific answer will then at best be treated
the same as the more general one, and may be considered wrong.
* 3. Entries
Entries must be emailed to the address given above. Please do not
quote the questions back to me, and do send only plain text in ASCII
or ISO 8859-1: no HTML, attachments, Micros--t character sets, etc.,
and no Unicode, please. (Entrants who fail to comply will be publicly
chastised in the results posting.)
Your message should preferably consist of just your 10 answers,
numbered from 0 to 9, along with any explanations required. Your
name should be in it somewhere -- a From: line or signature is fine.
(If I don't see both a first and a last name, or an explicit request
for a particular form of your name to be used, then your email address
will be posted in the results).
You can expect an acknowledgement when I read your entry. If this
bounces, it won't be sent again.
* 3.1 Where Leeway is Allowed
In general there is no penalty for errors of spelling, capitalization,
English usage, or other such matters of form, nor for accidentally
sending email in an unfinished state, so long as it's clear enough
what you intended. Sometimes a specific question may imply stricter
rules, though. And if you give an answer that properly refers to a
different thing related to the one you intended, I will normally take
it as written.
Once you intentionally submit an answer, no changes will be allowed,
unless I decide there was a problem with the question. Similarly,
alternate answers within an entry will not be accepted. Only the
first answer that you intentionally submit counts.
* 3.2 Clarifications
Questions are not intended to be hard to understand, but I may fail
in this intent. (For one thing, in many cases clarity could only be
provided by an example which would suggest one or another specific
answer, and I mustn't do that.)
In order to be fair to all entrants, I must insist that requests for
clarification must be emailed to me, NOT POSTED in any newsgroup.
But if you do ask for clarification, I'll probably say that the
question is clear enough as posted. If I do decide to clarify or
change a question, all entrants will be informed.
* 3.3 Supporting Information
It is your option whether or not to provide supporting information
to justify your answers. If you don't, I'll email you to ask for
it if I need to. If you supply it in the form of a URL, if at all
possible it should be a "deep link" to the specific relevant page.
There is no need to supply URLs for obvious, well-known reference
web sites, and there is no point in supplying URLs for pages that
don't actually support your answer.
If you provide any explanatory remarks along with your answers, you
are responsible for making it sufficiently clear that they are not
part of the answers. The particular format doesn't matter as long
as you're clear. In the scoring example above, "white square" was
wrong; "white (in the central square)" would have been taken as a
correct answer with an explanation.
* 4. Interpretation of questions
These are general rules that apply unless a question specifically
states otherwise.
* 4.1 Geography
* 4.1.1 Countries
"Country" means an independent country. Whether or not a place is
considered an independent country is determined by how it is listed
in reference sources.
For purposes of these contests, the Earth is considered to be divid-
ed into disjoint areas each of which is either (1) a country, (2) a
dependency, or (3) without national government. Their boundaries
are interpreted on a de facto basis. Any place with representatives
in a country's legislature is considered a part of that country rather
than a dependency of it.
The European Union is considered as an association of countries, not
a country itself.
Claims that are not enforced, or not generally recognized, don't count.
Places currently fighting a war of secession don't count. Embassies
don't count as special; they may have extraterritorial rights, but
they're still part of the host country (and city).
Countries existing at different historical times are normally
considered the same country if they have the same capital city.
* 4.1.2 States or provinces
Many countries or dependencies are divided into subsidiary political
entities, typically with their own subsidiary governments. At the
first level of division, these entities are most commonly called
states or provinces, but various other names are used; sometimes
varying even within the same country (e.g. to indicate unequal
political status).
Any reference to "states or provinces" in a question refers to
these entities at the first level of division, no matter what they
are called.
* 4.1.3 Distances
Distances between places on the Earth are measured along a great
circle path, and distance involving cities are based on the city
center (downtown).
* 4.2 Entertainment
A "movie" does not include any form of TV broadcast or video release;
it must have been shown in cinemas. "Oscar" and "Academy Award" are
AMPAS trademarks and refer to the awards given by that organization.
"Fiction" includes dramatizations of true stories.
* 4.3 Words and Numbers
* 4.3.1 Different Answers
Some questions specifically ask for a *word*, rather than the thing
that it names; this means that different words with the same meaning
will in general be treated as distinct answers. However, if two or
more inflectional variants, spelling variants, or other closely
related forms are correct answers, they will be treated as equivalent.
Similarly, if the question specifically asks for a name, different
things referred to by the same name will be treated as the same.
* 4.3.2 Permitted Words
The word that you give must be listed (or implied by a listing,
as with inflected forms) in a suitable dictionary. Generally
this means a printed dictionary published recently enough
to show reasonably current usage, or its online equivalent.
Other reasonably authoritative sources may be accepted on a
case-by-case basis. Words listed as obsolete or archaic usage
don't count, and sources that would list those words without
distinguishing them are not acceptable as dictionaries.
* 4.3.3 Permitted Numbers
Where the distinction is important, "number" refers to a specific
mathematical value, whereas "numeral" means a way of writing it.
Thus "4", "IV", and "four" are three different numerals representing
the same number. "Digit" means one of the characters "0", "1", "2",
etc. (These definitions represent one of several conflicting common
usages.)
* 4.3.4 "Contained in"
If a question asks for a word or numeral "contained" or "included"
in a phrase, title, or the like, this does not include substrings or
alternate meanings of words, unless explictly specified. For example,
if "Canada in 1967" is the title of a book, it contains the numeral
1967 and the preposition "in"; but it does not contain the word "an",
the adjective "in", or the numeral 96.
* 4.4 Tense and Time
When a question is worded in the present tense, the correctness of
your answer is determined by the facts at the moment you submit it.
(In a case where, in my judgement, people might reasonably be unaware
of the facts having changed, an out-of-date answer may be accepted as
correct.) Questions worded in the present perfect tense include the
present unless something states or implies otherwise. (For example,
Canada is a country that "has existed", as well as one that "exists".)
Different verbs in a sentence bear their usual tense relationship to
each other.
You are not allowed to change the facts yourself in order to make an
answer correct. For example, if a question asks for material on the
WWW, what you cite must already have existed before the contest was
first posted.
* 5. Judging
As moderator, I will be the sole judge of what answers are correct,
and whether two answers with similar meaning (like red and gules)
are considered the same, different, or more/less specific variants.
I will do my best to be fair on all such issues, but sometimes it is
necessary to be arbitrary. Those who disagree with my rulings are
welcome to complain (or to start a competing contest, or whatever).
I may rescore the contest if I agree that I made a serious error and
it affects the high finishers.
* 6. Results
Results will normally be posted within a few days of the contest
closing. They may be delayed if I'm unexpectedly busy or for
technical reasons. If I feel I need help evaluating one or more
answers, I may make a consultative posting in the newsgroups before
scoring the contest.
In the results posting, all entrants will be listed in order of score,
but high (bad) scores may be omitted. The top few entrants' full
answer slates will be posted. A table of answers and their scores
will be given for each question.
* 7. Fun
This contest is for fun. Please do have fun, and good luck to all.
--
Mark Brader | "I was gratified to be able to answer promptly, and I did.
Toronto | I said I didn't know."
m...@vex.net | --Mark Twain, "Life on the Mississippi"
My text in this article is in the public domain.
Justin C
> This is another Rare Entries contest in the MSB series. Yes,
> already -- I want to get it wrapped up before we get too close
> to Christmas.
>
> As always, reply ONLY BY EMAIL to m...@vex.net; do not post to any
> newsgroup. Entries must reach here by Saturday, December 19, 2009.
> (by Toronto time, zone -5). See below the questions for a detailed
> explanation, which is unchanged from last time.
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
> 0. Name an English "question word" (like "when") that *does not*
> start with the two letters "wh". (See rule 4.3.2.)
Do you mean a word that could be used as a one word question in reply to
a statement? For example (using "when" as you did above), to the
statement "I shall make dinner" someone could ask "When?". Are we
looking for words to substitute "when" for different statements?
Justin.
--
Justin C, by the sea.
Kevin Stone
>> newsgroup.
> Do you mean...
Ahhhhhhhhhhh, what have you done! You've broken the cardinal rule and you'll
be chastised, heckled and quite possibly banned forever!
--
Kev
www.brainbashers.com/who_said_the_questions_had_to_make_sense
Mark Brader
>> As always, reply ONLY BY EMAIL to m...@vex.net; do not post to any
>> newsgroup. Entries must reach here by Saturday, December 19, 2009.
>> (by Toronto time, zone -5). See below the questions for a detailed
>> explanation, which is unchanged from last time.
Justin C.:
> Do you mean...
Next time please read the words you are quoting.
--
Mark Brader, Toronto | "If we gave people a choice, there would be chaos."
m...@vex.net | -- Dick McDonald
Mark Brader
As always, reply ONLY BY EMAIL to m...@vex.net; do not post to any
newsgroup. Entries must reach here by Saturday, December 19, 2009.
(by Toronto time, zone -5). I intend to post one more reminder
before then. Everything after this point is the same as in the
original contest posting. See below the questions for a detailed
Justin C
>>> As always, reply ONLY BY EMAIL to m...@vex.net; do not post to any
>>> newsgroup.
>
>> Do you mean...
>
> Ahhhhhhhhhhh, what have you done! You've broken the cardinal rule and you'll
> be chastised, heckled and quite possibly banned forever!
Ah, sod it. I've investigated a bit more and don't feel the need to have
this clarified. Thanks for pointing out my mistake.
... Goes against my usenet philosophy though (but I do accept that it is
more sensible to submit answers by email!).
Mark Brader
contest. As I write, you have 5 days and a bit under 10 hours
remaining to enter.
As always, reply ONLY BY EMAIL to m...@vex.net; do not post to any
newsgroup. Entries must reach here by Saturday, December 19, 2009.
Mark Brader
| As usual, for each of the items above, your objective is to give a
| response that (1) is correct, and (2) will be duplicated by as FEW
| other people as possible. Feel free to use any reference material...
There were 30 entrants, and LEJONEL NORLING is the winner. Hearty
congratulations! Close behind in second place was Steven Taschuk,
and Erland Sommarskog takes third.
The Lady Byng Trophy for sportsmanship, however, goes to Duncan Booth
for providing evidence to prove one of his own answers wrong after
I was unable to do so myself. That is cricket, sir, and I appreciate
it. Duncan would have finished third if he had not done so.
Here are the top three finishers' answer slates. As always, you
should be reading this in a monospaced font for proper tabular
alignment.
LEJONEL NORLING STEVEN TASCHUK ERLAND SOMMARSKOG
[0] However However How
[1] Czech (tch锟絨ue) Rep. Turkey (Turquie) Albania (Shqiperia)
[2] Male Feminine Feminine
[3] Keyring Trunnel Binder
[4] Saffron Gamboge Crimson
[5] 30:e november 06/05 28 de mayo
[6] Le Mat Trophy Ranji Trophy Davis Cup
[7] Daugava Syr Darya Plata
[8] George IV Edward V Edward VI
[9] Norge (Norway) Argentina (wrong answer)
| Please do not quote the questions back to me, and do send only
| plain text in ASCII or ISO 8859-1: no HTML, attachments, Micros--t
| character sets, etc., and no Unicode, please. (Entrants who fail
| to comply will be publicly chastised in the results posting.)
Erland Sommarskog, Rob Pyle, and Isabel Gibson (listed in random
order), consider yourselves chastised!
To review the scoring:
| Low score wins; a perfect score is 1.
|
| If your answer on a category is correct, then your score is the number
| of people who gave that answer or an answer I consider equivalent. If
| wrong, or if you skip the question, you get a high score as a penalty.
| The scores on the different questions are *multiplied* to produce a
| final score. ... It is also possible that I may consider one answer
| to be a more specific variant of another: in that case it will be
| scored as if they are different, but the other, less specific variant
| will be scored as if they are the same.
See the questions posting for the penalty score formula.
Here is the complete table of scores.
RANK SCORE ENTRANT Q0 Q1 Q2 Q3 Q4 Q5 Q6 Q7 Q8 Q9
1. 672 Lejonel Norling 7 1 6 2 1 1 1 2 4 1
2. 1008 Steven Taschuk 7 1 12 1 1 1 2 2 3 1
3. 3024 Erland Sommarskog 14 1 12 1 1 1 3 1 1 WR
4. 4032 Nick Selwyn 14 4 6 3 1 1 1 1 2 2
5. 4200 Isabel Gibson 14 10 5 2 1 1 1 1 3 1
6. 5040 Duke Lefty 7 10 12 1 1 1 1 2 3 1
7. 10080 Robert Au 7 5 12 2 1 1 4 1 3 1
8. 12096 Garmt de Vries-Uiterweerd WR 1 12 4 1 1 1 3 3 1
9. 16128 Richard Heathfield 14 1 6 2 WR 2 1 4 2 1
=9. 16128 Ross Mathieson 7 4 12 3 1 1 2 2 2 2
11. 17920 Haran Pilpel 14 1 5 2 1 1 WR 1 WR 2
12. 20160 Alan Curry 14 10 12 1 2 1 3 2 1 1
=12. 20160 Barbara Grenier 14 10 12 1 1 1 2 3 1 2
14. 21504 Duncan Booth 7 2 12 2 1 1 WR 1 4 2
15. 32256 Rob Pyle 14 4 3 WR 1 1 4 1 3 2
=15. 32256 Rob Parker WR 4 12 1 2 1 3 1 2 2
=15. 32256 Peter Smyth WR 2 6 4 2 1 2 1 3 2
18. 37800 Dave Filpus 7 10 5 2 3 1 3 1 3 2
19. 40320 Ted Schuerzinger 14 1 5 WR 3 1 2 2 3 2
Don Del Grande 14 5 12 1 1 1 4 4 4 2
Robert Stanley WR WR 3 1 1 1 4 2 2 WR
John Gerson WR 5 3 1 1 1 3 WR WR 2
John Drew 14 1 WR WR WR 1 3 1 4 1
Mark Hardwidge 14 10 6 1 3 1 2 4 2 WR
James First WR 10 5 1 2 WR 3 3 2 1
Brian Tivol WR 5 WR 1 1 WR 1 2 WR 1
Geoff Roe 14 5 6 2 3 WR 3 4 1 2
Orlando Quattro WR 10 WR 1 1 1 WR 2 2 WR
Bruce Bowler WR 10 WR 4 3 1 WR 1 WR 2
Mike Jones 14 10 12 3 3 WR 3 2 WR WR
Scores of 100,000 or worse are not shown.
Here is the complete list of answers given. Each list shows correct
answers in the order worst to best (most to least popular). The
notation ">>>" means that "more specific variant" scoring was used.
| 0. Name an English "question word" (like "when") that *does not*
| start with the two letters "wh". (See rule 4.3.2.)
14 How
7 However
WRONG:
1 Are
1 Does
1 Eh
1 If
1 Must
1 Remember
1 Should
1 Will
1 Would
The similar question in the previous contest, with the answers accepted,
should have pointed to the two words that were the only correct answers.
Pretty much any word can begin a question in English; that doesn't make
it a "question word (like 'when')".
| 1. Name a country now existing with a usual short name that
| contains the letter Q (yes, this includes "q"). (See rule
| 4.1.1.)
10 Equatorial Guinea
5 Qatar
4 Mozambique
2 Belgium (Belgique in French)
1 Albania (Shqiperia in Albanian)
1 Burkina Faso (Burquina Faso in Portuguese)
1 Central African Republic (R锟絧ublique centrafricaine in French)
1 Comoros (Komorroq in V锟絩o)
1 Czech Republic (R锟絧ublique tch锟絨ue in French)
1 Iraq
1 Kazakhstan (Qazaqstan in Karakalpak)
1 Turkey (Turquie in French)
WRONG:
1 Saint Pierre and Miquelon (not a country)
There are only 4 correct answers based on the countries' names in
English, but I deliberately did not say that the names had to be
in English. I was hoping for at least a minor collision on answers
like Albania and Belgium from entrants who spotted that, and I sort
of got one when Belgium proved to be a more popular answer than Iraq.
However, in order for this trap to be possible, I could not impose a
requirement that the name containing a Q had to be one in a language
that's used in the country. This created a number of additional
correct answers, two of them involving languages I'd never heard of
before checking them out via Wikipedia's interlanguage links.
| 2. Name one of the genders that exist in conventional English
| grammar.
12 Feminine [= Female]
6 Masculine [= Male]
5 Neuter
3 Common
WRONG:
1 Collective
1 Inanimate
1 Indeterminate
1 Lower animal
Yeah, I like women too.
In English grammar the way I learned it in school, there are four
genders, all of which were given as answers. (Common is the gender
of nouns that could refer to either a male or a female.)
To check whether other terms are used today, I visited the library,
both the adult and the children's sections, and looked at a large
number of books about English grammar. (I was bemused to find in
the children's section one textbook originally published in 1880.)
Some books avoided mentioning gender at all (they might say things
like "the third-person pronouns in the subjective case are 'he',
'she', and 'it'"). Others mentioned gender only in the context
of discussing what pronoun (if any) is appropriately used when the
antecedent is common gender, but did not enumerate what genders exist
in English (many of them didn't even use the term "common gender").
Still others did enumerate the genders. None of them referred to
any other genders than the four I originally expected.
One or two books referred to "male" and "female" pronouns rather than
"masculine" and "feminine", so I accepted those terms as synonyms.
(There was one other alternate term that nobody used: one book gave
"non-personal" as a synonym of "neuter".)
| 3. Sometimes an object is manufactured with one or more holes
| in it, intended for use in joining it to one or more additional
| objects (also with such holes) in a single assembly, either
| rigidly or flexibly. This joining is done by passing an
| additional object (the "fastener") through the holes so that
| both objects are retained by the fastener. Once inserted,
| the fastener may itself be held in place by applying additional
| objects or by somehow changing its shape.
|
| Give a single word used in English for a type (not a brand)
| of object, one of whose intended uses is as a "fastener" as
| described here.
4 Padlock
>>> 1 [WRONG] Russet
3 Rivet
2 Brad
2 Dowel
2 Key-ring
2 Shoelace
1 Binder
1 Bolt
1 Bracelet
1 Chain
1 Cleko
1 Cufflink
1 Gudgeon
1 Key-chain
1 Kingbolt
1 Lace
1 Peg
1 Screw
1 Trunnel
WRONG:
1 Cam dowel (two words)
1 Russet (wrong question; intended to say Padlock)
1 Yarn (substance, not type of object)
I learned a few words here.
"Brad" here is referring to a brass fastener used for loose sheets of
punched paper, not a small nail. "Gudgeon" can refer either to the
component with holes or to the fastener passed through them. "Cleco"
is the short form of a company name, but seems to have entered use as
a generic term (also spelled "cleko") for a type of fastener; this one
isn't in any dictionary I tried, but Wikipedia cites a publication
by Jeppesen, the aeronautical supplies and services company, and I
treated that as sufficiently authoritative.
There were a few cases where I had to decide whether they really
fitted the description. For example, you don't pass the whole binder
through the holes in the sheets of punched paper, just the rings.
I decided to accept this. A kingbolt will be rigidly mounted to
one of the two vehicles it's joining -- but maybe it got that way
because it was first passed through a hole in the vehicle and then
was fastened in place. So I accepted these answers.
Finally, neither "keychain" nor "keyring" was listed as a single word
in my RHU or any of the online dictionaries I checked, but they *are*
in the OED Supplement in hyphenated form, so I accepted that.
| 4. Give a word of exactly 2 syllables that names a color in English.
| Any words with multiple pronunciations having different numbers
| of syllables do not count. (And again, see rule 4.3.2.)
3 Silver
3 Yellow
2 Maroon
2 Ochre
1 Aqua
1 Azure
1 Bistre
1 Carmine
1 Cerise
1 Cobalt
1 Copper
1 Crimson
1 Ecru
1 Fallow
1 Gamboge
1 Khaki
1 Mustard
1 Olive
1 Primrose
1 Saffron
1 Titian
1 Turquoise
WRONG:
1 Orange (may be one syllable)
1 Padlock (wrong question; intended to say Russet)
I learned a few colors here.
Usually when a question has some answers whose correctness might be
in doubt, I reserve the right to ask the entrant to do the research
to fine examples or evidence to prove them correct. With this question's
wording about alternative syllabifications *existing*, the onus was on
me to look for evidence to prove every answer *incorrect*. By way of
due diligence, I looked up each word in about 6 online dictionaries
using http://www.onelook.com, and in a print dictionary.
And after all that, the only case of an alternate pronunciation that
mattered was the one I had in mind from the beginning as an intentional
trap. It was a trickier trap than I realized, though; it turns out that
most of the dictionaries don't show the one-syllable pronunciation.
See <http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/orange> for the proof
that "orange" is a wrong answer.
Correct answers were well divided, with only "yellow" and "ochre"
scoring as badly as 3.
| 5. Name a complete or partial date which forms the *full title* of
| a movie listed in the Internet Movie Database. This refers to
| the title shown near the top of the IMDB's main page on the
| movie: by IMDB rules that should normally be the full title
| used in the movie's original release. You *must* indicate the
| specific IMDB listing for the movie, either by giving the full
| title and year of release as rendered in the IMDB, or by URL.
| For example, if "Up" was a date, your answer might be "Up (2009)"
| or "http://us.imdb.com/title/tt1049413/".
|
| Different answers referring to titles whose meaning as a date
| is the same will be taken as equivalent. (Also, see rule 4.2.)
2 Nineteen Eighty-Four (1984)
>>> 1 [WRONG] NINETEEN EIGHTY FOUR (1984)
1 06/05 (2004)
1 1. April 2000 (1952)
1 15 f锟絭rier 1839 (2001)
1 1812 (1910)
1 1953 (2003)
1 1958 (1980)
1 1972 (2006)
1 2000 B.C. (1931)
1 2010 (1984)
1 2012 (2009/I)
1 2023 (2009)
1 22 June 1897 (1979)
1 25th July (1951)
1 28 de mayo (1960)
1 29. novembar 1943 (1953)
1 3. November 1918 (1965)
1 30:e november (1995)
1 August 1 (1988)
1 December 7th (1943)
1 January 2nd (2006)
1 October 22 (1998)
1 Primero de enero (1984)
1 Saturday the 14th (1981)
1 September (1987)
1 Trinaesti juli (1952)
WRONG:
1 08/15 (1954) (not a date)
1 1942 (1984 video game) (not a movie and not given in required
form)
1 First Monday in October (1981) (not a date)
1 NINETEEN EIGHTY FOUR (1984) (not given in required form)
Answers were very well divided, with no correct answer scoring worse
than 2.
One entrant submitted his entire entry slate in block capitals because
of being under the impression it would be more legible that way.
I was saved from having to decide whether this legitimately qualified
as being "the full title as rendered in the IMDB" by the fact that
it was also misspelled, omitting the hyphen. Normally I don't penalize
people for spelling errors, but the wording of this specific question
established a stricter standard for it.
| 6. Name a sports trophy that has been awarded at least 75 times,
| and currently is the prize awarded more or less annually for a
| championship contended by professional teams. It is all right
| if the physical trophy awarded has not been the same one every
| time, or if the exact name has changed, so long as they are
| understood as being the same award.
4 Grey Cup (Canadian football, Canada, 97 since 1909)
3 Calcutta Cup (rugby, UK, 116 since 1879)
3 Davis Cup (tennis, world, 98 since 1900)
3 Sheffield Shield (cricket, Australia, 107 since 1893)
2 Copa del Rey (soccer, Spain, about 108 since 1902)
2 Ranji Trophy (cricket, India, 75 since 1935)
2 Stanley Cup (hockey, North America, about 120 since 1893)
1 AFL Premiership Flag (Australian football, Australia, about
115 since 1895)
1 Challenge Cup, Rugby League (rugby, Europe, 108 since 1897)
1 FA Cup (soccer, UK, 128 since 1872)
1 Governors' Cup (baseball, US, 77 since 1933)
1 KNVB Cup (soccer, Netherlands, 91 since 1899)
1 Le Mat Trophy (hockey, Sweden, 81 since 1926)
1 Men's Doubles Trophy, Wimbledon (tennis, UK, 116 since 1884)
WRONG:
1 Claret Jug (golf, UK, 127 since 1872) (individuals)
1 LV County Championship trophy (cricket, UK) (less than 65 years
old)
1 Mann Cup (lacrosse, Canada, 100 since 1910) (amateur teams)
1 Premiership Cup (Australian football, Australia; only 51 since
1959)
The earliest dates here show some evidence of how long that sports
have been organized in the manner we recognize today -- about
120-150 years and not much more.
In Australian football, the Premiership is today recognized by both
a flag and a cup. I accepted the flag as a trophy, but the cup is
a separate one and newer.
The hardest answer to validate was the county championship trophy
in British cricket (specifically, in England and Wales). These
championships have been contested 110 times since 1890; today a cup
is awarded (LV is the current sponsoring company), but I could
find nothing to say how long this had been true. I had already told
the entrant that I thought I'd have to give him the benefit of the
doubt when he produced a reference to a 1942 article
http://www.cricinfo.com/wisdenalmanack/content/story/151868.html
that says that a cup was donated for an 1873 competition, but no one
knows what became of it, and that year's event ("tie") was "the only
first-class county Cricket Cup-Tie" ever held. So the present cup
can date to no earlier than the resumption of play after World War II.
| 7. Name a river that drains an area incorporating at least part
| of four or more different countries. (Again, see rule 4.1.1.)
4 Danube (Moldova, Romania, Bulgaria, Serbia)
3 Sava (Serbia, Bosnia & Herzegovina, Croatia, Slovenia)
2 Amu Darya (Uzbekistan, Turkmenistan, Afghanistan, Tajikistan)
2 Daugava (Latvia, Lithuania, Belarus, Russia)
2 Limpopo (Mozambique, South Africa, Zimbabwe, Botswana)
2 Mekong (Viet Nam, Cambodia, Laos, Thailand)
2 Syr Darya (Kazakhstan, Uzbekistan, Tajikistan, Kyrgyzstan)
1 Brahmaputra (Bangladesh, India, Bhutan, China) (see below)
1 Congo (Angola, Congo, Congo, Cameroon)
1 Euphrates (Iraq, Kuwait, Syria, Turkey) (see below)
1 Jordan (Israel, Jordan, Syria, Lebanon)
1 Kura (Azerbaijan, Georgia, Armenia, Turkey)
1 Neman (Lithuania, Russia, Poland, Belarus)
1 Paraguay (Paraguay, Argentina, Bolivia, Brazil)
1 Plata (Uruguay, Argentina, Brazil, Paraguay) (see below)
1 Rhine (Netherlands, Germany, Luxembourg, France)
1 Senegal (Senegal, Mauretania, Mali, Guinea)
1 Tigris (Iraq, Iran, Syria, Turkey)
1 Zambezi (Mozambique, Malawi, Zambia, Zimbabwe)
WRONG:
1 Kura-Araks (two rivers)
I've just shown four countries for each river, normally the four
nearest its mouth; in several cases there are more. The Danube is
one of the easier answers and I wasn't surprised to see it as the
one most often given.
In my world atlas it looks as though the Brahmaputra is a wrong
answer. It clearly drains from China and Bhutan into India, but
as far as I can tell the relevant border sections with both Nepal
and Burma/Myanmar follow the height of land. The only possible
fourth country is Bangladesh, but the atlas shows the river
changing names at the border to become the Jamuna. However,
other sources do show the name as Brahmaputra in Bangladesh too,
or describe the Jamuna as part of the Brahmaputra; and in any case
the border is so twisty where it crosses the river that some streams
of it actually cross back from Bangladesh into India, so if it really
has different names in different countries it's still correct. So for
all these reasons I accepted this answer.
In my world atlas it looks as though the Euphrates drains land in
only three countries: Turkey, Syria, and Iraq. Its basin clearly
extends into Jordan and Saudi Arabia, but the area is desert and no
watercourses, not even intermittent ones, are marked as extending
across the border and meeting the Euphrates. In other words, these
areas *would* drain into the Eurphrates if there was enough water,
but if there was enough water, the shape of places like the Dead Sea
and the Great Salt Lake would look at lot different. This contest
deals in things as they are, unless specified otherwise. However,
some maps do show an intermittent watercourse leading from a point
on the Kuwait/Iraq border into the Euphrates, so I accepted the answer
based on this.
Finally, the R锟給 de la Plata or River Plate is really an estuary, not
a river, but it is named as a river and sometimes counted as one, and
I decided I had to accept it.
| 8. Name a person meeting the following description. At some time
| after 1357 he was King of England, or of the UK; and immediately
| after his death, it was not the case that one of his children
| had succeeded to the throne.
4 George IV (1830; brother William IV)
3 Charles II (1685; brother James II)
3 Edward V (1483; uncle Richard III)
3 William III (1702; first cousin Anne)
2 Charles I (1649; none)
2 Edward VIII (1972*; brother George VI, niece Elizabeth II)
2 George II (1760; grandson George III)
2 Richard III (1485; illegitimate third cousin once removed Henry
VII)
1 Edward VI (1553; first cousin once removed Jane Grey)
1 Henry VI (1471*; third cousin twice removed Edward IV, twice)
1 Richard II (1400*; first cousin Henry IV)
1 William IV (1837; niece Victoria)
WRONG:
3 James II (*; nephew William III, daughter Mary II)
1 Edward IV (*; third cousin twice removed Henry VI, son Edward V)
1 Henry I (1135)
For the correct answers I've shown their date of death and who had
succeeded them by then. * indicates those who were no longer king
at their death, due to abdication or being deposed.
I probably should have set the cutoff date later -- about half of
the kings over the specified period are correct answers -- but I was
hoping for a collision on Charles I, whose eventual successor *was*
his son, but not until 11 years later. The only correct answer
not given was the earliest possible: Edward III, who died in 1377
and was succeeded by his grandson Richard II.
| 9. Give a word that is a given name or surname of a "famous"
| person and also a short name of a present-day country (again,
| rule 4.1.1).
|
| "Famous" is to be measured by Google counts. Your answer *must*
| include a set of three Google search terms: [1] the person's year
| of birth (or an alleged year of birth, if there is conflicting
| information), [2] a word somehow indicating why or how the person
| is famous, and [3] the person's name (as a phrase, including at
| least one given name and the surname). The first page of Google
| results for this search must indicate that there are "about"
| at least 1,000 hits. For example, if there was a country named
| "Harrison" or "Ford", then you might give:
|
| 1942 actor "Harrison Ford"
|
| Different answers referring to the same country will be taken
| as equivalent.
2 Brazil (Alan Brazil, 1959-, footballer) (Angela Brazil,
1868-1947, author)
2 Chad (Chad Allen, 1975-, actor) (Chad Johnson, 1978-, football)
2 China (China Chow, 1974-, actress)
>>> 1 [WRONG] China (China Chow, 1974, actress/model)
2 Denmark (James Denmark, 1936-, artist) (Florence Denmark,
1931-, author)
2 France (Anatole France, 1844-1924, novelist)
>>> 1 [WRONG] France (Marie France Pisier)
2 Ireland (Kathy Ireland, 1963-, model) (Jill Ireland, 1936-90,
actress)
2 Israel (Steve Israel, 1958-, politician) (Israel Shahak,
1933-2001, chemist)
2 Panama (Norman Panama, 1914-2003, writer)
1 Argentina (Argentina Brunetti, 1907-2005, writer)
1 Canada (Ron Canada, 1949-, actor)
1 Dominique (French for Dominica) (Dominique de Villepin, 1953-,
politics)
1 India (India de Beaufort, 1987-, actress)
1 Jamaica (Jamaica Kincaid, 1949-, author)
1 Kenya (Kenya Sawada, 1965-, actor)
1 Mali (Taylor Mali, 1965-, poet)
1 Maurice (French for Mauritius) (Maurice of Nassau, 1567-1625,
military planner)
1 Netherlands (Holland Taylor, 1943-, actress)
1 Norge (Norwegian for Norway; Kaare Norge, 1963-, guitarist)
1 Tonga (Esi Tonga, 1988-, rugby)
WRONG:
1 Checa (Carlos Checa, 1972-, motorcycle) (not a country; correct
spanish name of Czech Republic is Rep锟絙lica Checa)
1 China (China Chow, 1974, actress/model) (only 230 hits)
1 France (Marie France Pisier) (google search not given as
required)
1 Montserrat (Montserrat Caballe, opera singer) (not a country
and Google search not given as required)
1 Scotland (1979, footballer) (not a country as defined,
and Google search not given as required)
I've shown dates of death as well as birth, just for interest.
Answers were very well divided, with no correct answer scoring
worse than 2 points -- and most of those were among entrants who
named two different people with the name of the same country.
Since the question was explicit about the requirement for Google
search terms, I insisted on that. I did accept entries from a
couple of entrants who gave additional search words besides those
required, as searching on additional terms would only weaken their
chances, and indeed one entrant went from being a right to a wrong
answer because of this. Since I did not explicitly state that the
entrant must name the country as well as giving the search terms,
I accepted entries consisting only of the search terms.
Thank you all for playing, Merry Christmas to all, and to all
a good night.
--
Mark Brader "Succeed, and you'll be remembered for a very long time.
Toronto Fail, and you'll be remembered even longer."
m...@vex.net -- Hel Faczel (John Barnes: ...the Martian King)
Mark Brader
I should have accepted has turned up. I will rescore, probably in a
few hours.
--
Mark Brader "When a supposedly indivisible transaction
Toronto fails to complete properly, this is known
m...@vex.net as an atomic bomb." -- Peter Neumann
Mark Brader
| As usual, for each of the items above, your objective is to give a
| response that (1) is correct, and (2) will be duplicated by as FEW
| other people as possible. Feel free to use any reference material...
There were 31 entrants, not 30 as I said originally. Stephen Perry's
entry was missed due to no fault of his own when bogofilter managed
to miscategorize it as spam.
(Stephen did miss two chances to avoid the situation, first by
misspelling "MSB66" in the subject line, which is what I searched on
when checking the spam bucket, and then by not noticing that I hadn't
sent an acknowledgement. One other entrant didn't notice that either
-- in his case, it was my acknowledgement that was bounced as spam.)
This is an edit of the original answer posting, with all commentary
still in place, edited where applicable. Consider it to supersede the
first version.
Well, LEJONEL NORLING is still the winner. Hearty congratulations
once again! Close behind in second place was Steven Taschuk, and
Erland Sommarskog takes third.
To review the scoring:
Here is the complete, revised table of scores.
RANK SCORE ENTRANT Q0 Q1 Q2 Q3 Q4 Q5 Q6 Q7 Q8 Q9
1. 672 Lejonel Norling 7 1 6 2 1 1 1 2 4 1
2. 1456 Steven Taschuk 7 1 13 1 1 1 2 2 4 1
3. 3276 Erland Sommarskog 14 1 13 1 1 1 3 1 1 WR
4. 5040 Nick Selwyn 14 5 6 3 1 1 1 1 2 2
5. 5600 Isabel Gibson 14 10 5 2 1 1 1 1 4 1
6. 10920 Duke Lefty 7 10 13 1 1 1 1 2 3 2
7. 13104 Garmt de Vries-Uiterweerd WR 1 13 4 1 1 1 3 3 1
8. 17920 Haran Pilpel 14 1 5 2 1 1 WR 1 WR 2
9. 20160 Richard Heathfield 14 1 6 2 WR 2 1 5 2 1
10. 21840 Alan Curry 14 10 13 1 2 1 3 2 1 1
=10. 21840 Ross Mathieson 7 5 13 3 1 1 2 2 2 2
=10. 21840 Barbara Grenier 14 10 13 1 1 1 2 3 1 2
13. 23296 Duncan Booth 7 2 13 2 1 1 WR 1 4 2
14. 29120 Robert Au 7 5 13 2 2 1 4 1 4 1
15. 32256 Peter Smyth WR 2 6 4 2 1 2 1 3 2
16. 37800 Dave Filpus 7 10 5 2 3 1 3 1 3 2
17. 40320 Rob Pyle 14 5 3 WR 1 1 4 1 3 2
=17. 40320 Ted Schuerzinger 14 1 5 WR 3 1 2 2 3 2
19. 41600 Stephen Perry 1 5 13 1 2 1 WR 5 4 2
20. 43680 Rob Parker WR 5 13 1 2 1 3 1 2 2
Don Del Grande 14 5 13 1 1 1 4 5 4 2
Robert Stanley WR WR 3 1 1 1 4 2 2 WR
John Gerson WR 5 3 1 1 1 3 WR WR 2
John Drew 14 1 WR WR WR 1 3 1 4 1
Mark Hardwidge 14 10 6 1 3 1 2 5 2 WR
James First WR 10 5 1 2 WR 3 3 2 1
Brian Tivol WR 5 WR 1 1 WR 1 2 WR 1
Geoff Roe 14 5 6 2 3 WR 3 5 1 2
Orlando Quattro WR 10 WR 1 1 1 WR 2 2 WR
Bruce Bowler WR 10 WR 4 3 1 WR 1 WR 2
Mike Jones 14 10 13 3 3 WR 3 2 WR WR
Scores of 100,000 or worse are not shown.
Here is the complete list of answers given. Each list shows correct
answers in the order worst to best (most to least popular). The
notation ">>>" means that "more specific variant" scoring was used.
| 0. Name an English "question word" (like "when") that *does not*
| start with the two letters "wh". (See rule 4.3.2.)
14 How
7 However
1 Howsoever (see below)
WRONG:
1 Are
1 Does
1 Eh
1 If
1 Must
1 Remember
1 Should
1 Will
1 Would
In the previous version of this posting, I wrote:
> The similar question in the previous contest, with the answers
> accepted, should have pointed to the two words that were the only
> correct answers. Pretty much any word can begin a question in
> English; that doesn't make it a "question word (like 'when')".
Stephen's answer was "howsoever", which I'm reasonably sure does
not qualify as a question word. It is a formal term synonymous with
"however" in certain senses, but the sense of "however" where it's an
emphatic equivalent of "how" as a question word, which is typically
an informal usage, is not one of them.
Unfortunately, the online Encarta dictionary defines "howsoever",
in full, as: "(formal or archaic) Same as however". I therefore
have to accept this answer, and Stephen squeaks by with a 1.
| 1. Name a country now existing with a usual short name that
| contains the letter Q (yes, this includes "q"). (See rule
| 4.1.1.)
10 Equatorial Guinea
5 Mozambique
5 Qatar
2 Belgium (Belgique in French)
1 Albania (Shqiperia in Albanian)
1 Burkina Faso (Burquina Faso in Portuguese)
1 Central African Republic (R锟絧ublique centrafricaine in French)
1 Comoros (Komorroq in V锟絩o)
1 Czech Republic (R锟絧ublique tch锟絨ue in French)
1 Iraq
1 Kazakhstan (Qazaqstan in Karakalpak)
1 Turkey (Turquie in French)
WRONG:
1 Saint Pierre and Miquelon (not a country)
There are only 4 correct answers based on the countries' names in
English, but I deliberately did not say that the names had to be
in English. I was hoping for at least a minor collision on answers
like Albania and Belgium from entrants who spotted that, and I sort
of got one when Belgium proved to be a more popular answer than Iraq.
However, in order for this trap to be possible, I could not impose a
requirement that the name containing a Q had to be one in a language
that's used in the country. This created a number of additional
correct answers, two of them involving languages I'd never heard of
before checking them out via Wikipedia's interlanguage links.
| 2. Name one of the genders that exist in conventional English
| grammar.
13 Feminine [= Female]
1 Batten
3 Silver
3 Yellow
2 Khaki
2 Maroon
2 Ochre
1 Aqua
1 Azure
1 Bistre
1 Carmine
1 Cerise
1 Cobalt
1 Copper
1 Crimson
1 Ecru
1 Fallow
1 Gamboge
1 Fevruari (1978)
1 Tour de France Yellow Jersey (cycling, Europe; more frequent
than annual)
The earliest dates here show some evidence of how long that sports
have been organized in the manner we recognize today -- about
120-150 years and not much more.
In Australian football, the Premiership is today recognized by both
a flag and a cup. I accepted the flag as a trophy, but the cup is
a separate one and newer.
The yellow jersey is awarded at *each stage* of the Tour de France,
i.e. more or less daily during the race.
The hardest answer to validate was the county championship trophy
in British cricket (specifically, in England and Wales). These
championships have been contested 110 times since 1890; today a cup
is awarded (LV is the current sponsoring company), but I could
find nothing to say how long this had been true. I had already told
the entrant that I thought I'd have to give him the benefit of the
doubt when he produced a reference to a 1942 article
http://www.cricinfo.com/wisdenalmanack/content/story/151868.html
that says that a cup was donated for an 1873 competition, but no one
knows what became of it, and that year's event ("tie") was "the only
first-class county Cricket Cup-Tie" ever held. So the present cup
can date to no earlier than the resumption of play after World War II.
| 7. Name a river that drains an area incorporating at least part
| of four or more different countries. (Again, see rule 4.1.1.)
5 Danube (Moldova, Romania, Bulgaria, Serbia)
3 Sava (Serbia, Bosnia & Herzegovina, Croatia, Slovenia)
2 Amu Darya (Uzbekistan, Turkmenistan, Afghanistan, Tajikistan)
2 Daugava (Latvia, Lithuania, Belarus, Russia)
2 Limpopo (Mozambique, South Africa, Zimbabwe, Botswana)
2 Mekong (Viet Nam, Cambodia, Laos, Thailand)
2 Syr Darya (Kazakhstan, Uzbekistan, Tajikistan, Kyrgyzstan)
1 Brahmaputra (Bangladesh, India, Bhutan, China) (see below)
1 Congo (Angola, Congo, Congo, Cameroon)
1 Euphrates (Iraq, Kuwait, Syria, Turkey) (see below)
1 Jordan (Israel, Jordan, Syria, Lebanon)
1 Kura (Azerbaijan, Georgia, Armenia, Turkey)
1 Neman (Lithuania, Russia, Poland, Belarus)
1 Paraguay (Paraguay, Argentina, Bolivia, Brazil)
1 Plata (Uruguay, Argentina, Brazil, Paraguay) (see below)
1 Rhine (Netherlands, Germany, Luxembourg, France)
1 Senegal (Senegal, Mauretania, Mali, Guinea)
1 Tigris (Iraq, Iran, Syria, Turkey)
1 Zambezi (Mozambique, Malawi, Zambia, Zimbabwe)
WRONG:
1 Kura-Araks (two rivers)
I learned a few rivers here.
I've just shown four countries for each river named, normally the
4 Edward V (1483; uncle Richard III)
4 George IV (1830; brother William IV)
3 Charles II (1685; brother James II)
2 Canada (Ron Canada, 1949-, actor)
2 Chad (Chad Allen, 1975-, actor) (Chad Johnson, 1978-, football)
2 China (China Chow, 1974-, actress)
>>> 1 [WRONG] China (China Chow, 1974, actress/model)
2 Denmark (James Denmark, 1936-, artist) (Florence Denmark,
1931-, author)
2 France (Anatole France, 1844-1924, novelist)
>>> 1 [WRONG] France (Marie France Pisier)
2 Ireland (Kathy Ireland, 1963-, model) (Jill Ireland, 1936-90,
actress)
2 Israel (Steve Israel, 1958-, politician) (Israel Shahak,
1933-2001, chemist)
2 Panama (Norman Panama, 1914-2003, writer)
1 Argentina (Argentina Brunetti, 1907-2005, writer)
Okay, one more time now... thank you all for playing, Merry Christmas
to all, and to all a good night. *There!*
--
Mark Brader, Toronto | "My ambition is to see a saying of mine attributed
m...@vex.net | to Dorothy Parker or Mark Twain." -- Joe Fineman
Alan Curry
Mark Brader <m...@vex.net> wrote:
>Once again, I wrote:
>| As usual, for each of the items above, your objective is to give a
>| response that (1) is correct, and (2) will be duplicated by as FEW
>| other people as possible. Feel free to use any reference material...
>
>misspelling "MSB66" in the subject line, which is what I searched on
>when checking the spam bucket, and then by not noticing that I hadn't
>sent an acknowledgement. One other entrant didn't notice that either
>-- in his case, it was my acknowledgement that was bounced as spam.)
Sure I noticed, and made adjustments so it would be less likely to happen
again. There didn't seem to be much else to do. Resubmit? Oh, the
embarrassment. Glad it turned out OK.
> 10. 21840 Alan Curry 14 10 13 1 2 1 3 2 1 1
Tied for 10th, despite picking the most common correct answer on the first 3
questions.
>
>| 2. Name one of the genders that exist in conventional English
>| grammar.
"Modern English is normally described as lacking grammatical gender."
--pikiwedia/Grammatical_gender
>
>In English grammar the way I learned it in school,
Oh, so *that* is what you meant by "conventional" :)
>
>| 9. Give a word that is a given name or surname of a "famous"
>| person and also a short name of a present-day country (again,
>| rule 4.1.1).
Since a lot of famous people are known by stage names, I still wonder if
those can count as "given name" or "surname" without a legal name change.
Especially if it's a one-word stage name, so that you can't tell if it's
a pseudo-surname or a pseudo-given name... would "Chyna" have been a correct
answer, except for the spelling?
> 1 Netherlands (Holland Taylor, 1943-, actress)
That wasn't my answer, but it's my favorite. Not taking advantage of the
difference between "short name" and "short name in English" that some of us
failed to notice, but instead using the difference between "the short name"
and "a short name". Nice one, whoever you are.
--
Alan Curry
Mark Brader
>> ...and then by not noticing that I hadn't
>> sent an acknowledgement. One other entrant didn't notice that either
>> -- in his case, it was my acknowledgement that was bounced as spam.)
Alan Curry:
> Sure I noticed, and made adjustments so it would be less likely to happen
> again.
I'm not sure what you mean you did.
>> In English grammar the way I learned it in school,
>
> Oh, so *that* is what you meant by "conventional" :)
"Conventional" meant the way it is usually presented, and I explained
what I did to confirmed my expectation of that.
>> | 9. Give a word that is a given name or surname of a "famous"
>> | person and also a short name of a present-day country (again,
>> | rule 4.1.1).
>
> Since a lot of famous people are known by stage names, I still wonder if
> those can count as "given name" or "surname" without a legal name change.
Yes. It would be impractical to do anything else.
> Especially if it's a one-word stage name...
Those were ruled out by the wording of the Google search requirement.
> > 1 Netherlands (Holland Taylor, 1943-, actress)
>
> That wasn't my answer, but it's my favorite.
I should've reported it as "Holland (Holland Taylor, 1943-, actress)",
though. At that point I'd forgotten the wording of my own question.
--
Mark Brader "People who think for a living have always
Toronto been especially prone to confuse thinking
m...@vex.net with living." -- G.L. Sicherman
Garmt de Vries
> | 0. Name an English "question word" (like "when") that *does not*
> | start with the two letters "wh". (See rule 4.3.2.)
>
> WRONG:
> 1 If
The word "if" is a synonym of "whether", as confirmed by e.g. the
Compact Oxford English Dictionary, Merriam-Webster's online dictionary
and the same Encarta dictionary that saved Stephen. To quote the
latter:
"1. conj used in indirect questions: used in indirect speech to
introduce a question that in direct speech requires the answer "yes"
or "no" asked if I would stay"
The fact that "if" is only used to introduce a clause and doesn't
occur at the beginning of a sentence does not mean it's not a question
word. Or would you also have ruled "whether" incorrect in MSB65?
> Okay, one more time now... thank you all for playing
Thank you for running the contest!
Garmt de Vries-Uiterweerd
Mark Brader
> Or would you also have ruled "whether" incorrect in MSB65?
Yes.
--
Mark Brader, Toronto | "[That] statement is so full of hubris
m...@vex.net | you can hear the wax melting." -- Steve Summit
Garmt de Vries
Fair enough. The concept "question word" is not strictly defined I
guess, but you said "like 'when' ", so I knew I was taking a risk by
submitting "if"...
Richard Heathfield
> In article <zO-dnWjR8Jq7_63W...@vex.net>,
> Mark Brader <m...@vex.net> wrote:
<snip>
>
>> 1 Netherlands (Holland Taylor, 1943-, actress)
>
> That wasn't my answer, but it's my favorite. Not taking advantage of
> the difference between "short name" and "short name in English" that
> some of us failed to notice, but instead using the difference
> between "the short name" and "a short name". Nice one, whoever you
> are.
I cannot tell a lie. It was me. Or possibly I.
--
Richard Heathfield <http://www.cpax.org.uk>
Email: -http://www. +rjh@
"Usenet is a strange place" - dmr 29 July 1999
Sig line vacant - apply within
Richard Heathfield
<snip>
> And after all that, the only case of an alternate pronunciation that
> mattered was the one I had in mind from the beginning as an
> intentional trap. It was a trickier trap than I realized, though;
> it turns out that most of the dictionaries don't show the
> one-syllable pronunciation. See
> <http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/orange> for the proof
> that "orange" is a wrong answer.
My knowledge of phonetics seems to be even more incomplete than I
thought. Could someone please explain to me two things:
1) why the cited page proves that "orange" is a wrong answer;
2) why Merriam-Webster (a foreign work) is considered a greater
authority on the English language than Chambers (an English work),
which lists exactly one pronunciation in exactly two syllables.
Duncan Booth
> In <peSdnYAW0aEdna3W...@vex.net>, Mark Brader wrote:
> 2) why Merriam-Webster (a foreign work) is considered a greater
> authority on the English language than Chambers (an English work),
> which lists exactly one pronunciation in exactly two syllables.
Watch what you're calling English. Chambers's Dictionary is published in
Scotland by a company founded by a Scotsman.
--
Duncan Booth http://kupuguy.blogspot.com
Bruce Bowler
Mark,
Can you define what "a 'question word' (like 'when')" means? I don't
what examples, we have those from the last 2 contests, but a proper
definition.
Thanks!
Bruce (who had a dismal showing this time 'round)
--
+-------------------+---------------------------------------------------+
Bruce Bowler | There is nothing so pathetic as a forgetful liar.
1.207.633.9600 | - F. M. Knowles
bbo...@bigelow.org |
+-------------------+---------------------------------------------------+
Richard Heathfield
Any /true/ Scotsman would obviously be English.
swp
> Once again, I wrote:
> There were 31 entrants, not 30 as I said originally. Stephen Perry's
> entry was missed due to no fault of his own when bogofilter managed
> to miscategorize it as spam.
>
> (Stephen did miss two chances to avoid the situation, first by
> misspelling "MSB66" in the subject line, which is what I searched on
> when checking the spam bucket, and then by not noticing that I hadn't
> sent an acknowledgement. One other entrant didn't notice that either
> -- in his case, it was my acknowledgement that was bounced as spam.)
yeah, I did that. I spelt it "msb 66" with a space. I expect to be
flogged with a wet bass for my transgression.
ha! finally! I got one past ya!! I'll savor the flavor 'cause it
aint likely to happen again. mmmmm .. flavor.
> | 3. Sometimes an object is manufactured with one or more holes
> | in it, intended for use in joining it to one or more additional
> | objects (also with such holes) in a single assembly, either
> | rigidly or flexibly. This joining is done by passing an
> | additional object (the "fastener") through the holes so that
> | both objects are retained by the fastener. Once inserted,
> | the fastener may itself be held in place by applying additional
> | objects or by somehow changing its shape.
> |
> | Give a single word used in English for a type (not a brand)
> | of object, one of whose intended uses is as a "fastener" as
> | described here.
>
> I learned a few words here.
>
wow. never expected to hear that. at least, not from you. maybe
from my kids, sure, on Christmas morning as I am trying to assemble
toys with instructions written in swahili and chaldean. but that's a
story for another time.
yew dun learnt yewself a new color? I dun learnt all-uh mines from a
big box uh crayons.
> Correct answers were well divided, with only "yellow" and "ochre"
> scoring as badly as 3.
and apparently the new way to spell "silver" is "ochre" :-)
rats! I thought it wasn't awarded each day, just worn as an indicator
of who is currently leading.
> | 7. Name a river that drains an area incorporating at least part
> | of four or more different countries. (Again, see rule 4.1.1.)
>
> I learned a few rivers here.
a banner week for you sir!
>
> Okay, one more time now... thank you all for playing, Merry Christmas
> to all, and to all a good night. *There!*
Merry Christmas!
and thanks for doing this.
swp
leflynn
> | start with the two letters "wh". (See rule 4.3.2.)
> 14 How
> 7 However
> should have pointed to the two words that were the only correct answers.
Do you mean the only correct answers submitted or the only answers you
would have accepted as correct? A little research finds the following:
Howsoever (a less common word for however)
Howso (an obsolete form of howsoever)
Howdy (a shortened for of; How do you do?)
From ancient history, I also believe the "y" in the word "bayou" is a
vowel as most references show it as bay-ou, that is, the y contributes
to the sound of the first syllable, not the second.
L. Flynn
Nick Wedd
<m...@vex.net> writes
I don't see the relevance of this. It's the same river, and the
question is about rivers, not about names. This is clear from your
accepting "Danube" as an answer, even though it is not called the
"Danube" in any of the countries it drains.
Nick
> However,
>other sources do show the name as Brahmaputra in Bangladesh too,
>or describe the Jamuna as part of the Brahmaputra; and in any case
>the border is so twisty where it crosses the river that some streams
>of it actually cross back from Bangladesh into India, so if it really
>has different names in different countries it's still correct. So for
>all these reasons I accepted this answer.
Nick
--
Nick Wedd ni...@maproom.co.uk
Nick Wedd
<r...@see.sig.invalid> writes
>In <peSdnYAW0aEdna3W...@vex.net>, Mark Brader wrote:
>
><snip>
>
>> And after all that, the only case of an alternate pronunciation that
>> mattered was the one I had in mind from the beginning as an
>> intentional trap. It was a trickier trap than I realized, though;
>> it turns out that most of the dictionaries don't show the
>> one-syllable pronunciation. See
>> <http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/orange> for the proof
>> that "orange" is a wrong answer.
>
>My knowledge of phonetics seems to be even more incomplete than I
>thought. Could someone please explain to me two things:
>
>1) why the cited page proves that "orange" is a wrong answer;
The page gives the pronunciation as "\'�r-inj, '�r(-x)nj"
(where my "x" represents a schwa, which I can't figure out how to copy
into this medium). The brackets in the second item indicate something
optional. Omitting the optional bit, the second item is "'�rnj", which
is a monosyllable. So "orange" fails the terms of the question, which
read
> Give a word of exactly 2 syllables that names a color in English.
> Any words with multiple pronunciations having different numbers
> of syllables do not count.
>2) why Merriam-Webster (a foreign work) is considered a greater
>authority on the English language than Chambers (an English work),
>which lists exactly one pronunciation in exactly two syllables.
You hold, I believe, the view that the English language is only used
correctly in England, and the forms of it spoken in north America and
other parts of the world do not count as English. This is a matter of
opinion. However, your view is incompatible with your claim that
Chambers is an English work: I invite you to look at its title page.
Duncan Booth
> In message <peSdnYAW0aEdna3W...@vex.net>, Mark Brader
> <m...@vex.net> writes
>>In my world atlas it looks as though the Brahmaputra is a wrong
>>answer. It clearly drains from China and Bhutan into India, but
>>as far as I can tell the relevant border sections with both Nepal
>>and Burma/Myanmar follow the height of land. The only possible
>>fourth country is Bangladesh, but the atlas shows the river
>>changing names at the border to become the Jamuna.
>
> I don't see the relevance of this. It's the same river, and the
> question is about rivers, not about names. This is clear from your
> accepting "Danube" as an answer, even though it is not called the
> "Danube" in any of the countries it drains.
>
Even so Mark is wrong about the name changing at the border. It actually
changes where the river splits into the Old Brahmaputra and the Jamuna
(which is the current main channel).
"Actually Jamuna is the downstream course of the brahmaputra which took
place after the earthquake and catastrophic flood in 1787. Presently the
Brahmaputra continues southeast from Bahadurabad (Dewanganj upazila of
Jamalpur district) as the old brahmaputra and the river between Bahadurabad
and Aricha is the Jamuna, not Brahmaputra. The Hydrology Directorate of the
bangladesh water development board (BWDB) refers to the whole stretch as
the Brahmaputra-Jamuna."
http://www.banglapedia.org/httpdocs/HT/J_0054.HTM
Richard Heathfield
<snip>
> You hold, I believe, the view that the English language is only used
> correctly in England, and the forms of it spoken in north America
> and other parts of the world do not count as English. This is a
> matter of opinion. However, your view is incompatible with your
> claim that Chambers is an English work: I invite you to look at its
> title page.
My dear chap, when it suits me for Scotland to be English, it will
darn well BE English, okay? :-)
Well, I probably can't get away with /two/ Scotland-related escapes,
can I? So I'd be curious to know what OED has to say about the
matter.
Mark Brader
>>> In my world atlas it looks as though the Brahmaputra is a wrong
>>> answer. It clearly drains from China and Bhutan into India, but
>>> as far as I can tell the relevant border sections with both Nepal
>>> and Burma/Myanmar follow the height of land. The only possible
>>> fourth country is Bangladesh, but the atlas shows the river
>>> changing names at the border to become the Jamuna.
Nick Wedd:
>> I don't see the relevance of this. It's the same river, and the
>> question is about rivers, not about names.
It's conventional to say that a river is the "same river" when its
name is the same. The Ohio River flows into the Mississippi; this
means that its drainage basin is a subset of the Mississippi's.
The Mississippi drains part of West Virginia, but the Ohio does not
drain any part of Louisiana.
If it was in fact true that the name changed at the border, as the
atlas appeared to show, I would consider this to be a similar situation
even without a confluence being involved.
>> This is clear from your accepting "Danube" as an answer, even though
>> it is not called the "Danube" in any of the countries it drains.
That's a translation of the same name, though. I don't imagine that
"Jamuna" is a translation of "Brahmaputra". If it actually is, then
the answer would be correct for that reason. I didn't have to check
on that.
Duncan Booth:
> Even so Mark is wrong about the name changing at the border.
I didn't say it did; I said the atlas appeared to show it doing so.
> It actually changes where the river splits into the Old Brahmaputra
> and the Jamuna (which is the current main channel).
So the Jamuna is part of the Brahmaputra, as the source I referred to
said, and the river is the same and therefore correct. But thanks for
the explanation.
--
Mark Brader, Toronto | "True excitement lies in doing
m...@vex.net | 'sdb /unix /dev/kmem'" -- Pontus Hedman
Mark Brader
> So I'd be curious to know what OED has to say about the matter.
The OED1 shows only one pronunciation (disyllabic, of course), and the
Supplement does not add another. To access the OED Online, I'd have
to visit a library.
--
Mark Brader | "Which humans of that time did here whether this place
Toronto | was cult place already at that time, extracts itself
m...@vex.net | from our knowledge." --from a web site for tourists
Duncan Booth
> Duncan Booth:
>> Even so Mark is wrong about the name changing at the border.
>
> I didn't say it did; I said the atlas appeared to show it doing so.
So you did. Sorry about that.
>
>> It actually changes where the river splits into the Old Brahmaputra
>> and the Jamuna (which is the current main channel).
>
> So the Jamuna is part of the Brahmaputra, as the source I referred to
> said, and the river is the same and therefore correct. But thanks for
> the explanation.
I was going to post the URL of the page I actualy used when looking for my
answer which says the watershed includes parts of Nepal but then I compared
it with Google maps and I'm not convinced any more. I didn't really want to
have to get you to reject another of my answers so I looked downstream
instead.
That's what I like about these contests: I learn a lot of things I didn't
know before (and mostly through the answers I get wrong or have to fight to
have accepted).
P.S. I hadn't heard of Lady Byng before either so that's another thing
learned.
Richard Heathfield
> Richard Heathfield:
>> So I'd be curious to know what OED has to say about the matter.
>
> The OED1 shows only one pronunciation (disyllabic, of course), and
> the Supplement does not add another. To access the OED Online, I'd
> have to visit a library.
Thank you.
Not having access to the OED, I did not consult it. But you seem to be
saying that, even had I done so, the Oxford English Dictionary would
not have been sufficiently authoritative for me to rely on it to
check potential answers to your question. That's a scary thought.
Andrew B.
> The hardest answer to validate was the county championship trophy
> in British cricket (specifically, in England and Wales). These
> championships have been contested 110 times since 1890; today a cup
> is awarded (LV is the current sponsoring company), but I could
> find nothing to say how long this had been true. I had already told
> the entrant that I thought I'd have to give him the benefit of the
> doubt when he produced a reference to a 1942 article
>
> http://www.cricinfo.com/wisdenalmanack/content/story/151868.html
>
> that says that a cup was donated for an 1873 competition, but no one
> knows what became of it, and that year's event ("tie") was "the only
> first-class county Cricket Cup-Tie" ever held. So the present cup
> can date to no earlier than the resumption of play after World War II.
That article is irrelevant as to whether the County Championship
trophy pre-dates the second world war - it's talking about a one-off
knock-out tournament being held in 1873.
But I've no idea as to when the County Champions were first presented
with a trophy.
Erland Sommarskog
> The page gives the pronunciation as "\'�r-inj, '�r(-x)nj"
> (where my "x" represents a schwa, which I can't figure out how to copy
> into this medium). The brackets in the second item indicate something
> read
I'm not really sure how to interpret what is said on that page. It's
not uncommon to see schwa in parentheses in an English dictionary. For
instance, in my school dictionary I find ['steiS(@)n]. This does not
mean that "station" can be pronounced in one syllable. In lieu of the
schwa the /n/ forms the syllable core. Another such example was submitted,
"crimson", and here my dictionary does not even list a schwa: [krimzn].
The word clearly has two syllables.
MW has ['Or(-@)ndZ] and since the hyphen is inside the parens, it
could indicate a one-syllable pronouciation. However, I would expect
them to list that as a separate pronounciation. So I think they show
a two-syllable pronounciation.
--
Erland Sommarskog, Stockholm, esq...@sommarskog.se
Erland Sommarskog
> Erland Sommarskog takes third.
My second third in a row, not bad, but...
> And after all that, the only case of an alternate pronunciation that
> mattered was the one I had in mind from the beginning as an intentional
> trap. It was a trickier trap than I realized, though; it turns out that
> most of the dictionaries don't show the one-syllable pronunciation.
> See <http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/orange> for the proof
> that "orange" is a wrong answer.
As I said in another posting, this is dubious, at least to me. But I
have not heard the exact pronounciation that M-W refers to.
> 1 Checa (Carlos Checa, 1972-, motorcycle) (not a country; correct
> spanish name of Czech Republic is Rep�blica Checa)
Aargh! Too smart for my own good! I had an answer with Togo (a Japanese
Admiral), but fear that too many would collide on and went on a hunt
on country names in various languages, and made this poor choice, because
I only read the start of the line, and not the end of the line before.
No one else had Togo, and had I stuck to it, I would have score my first
victory! (Thanks to, it should be added, by some generous rulings from
Mark.) Damn, damn damn!
swp
I phrased that poorly. I meant it as a protest. I believe the answer
is correct, but will wait to hear evidence that the yellow jersey is
'awarded' daily and not just handed over to indicate the leader each
day. I still won't win, but it will move me up significantly if this
is true.
swp
Ted Schuerzinger
> I phrased that poorly. I meant it as a protest. I believe the answer
> is correct, but will wait to hear evidence that the yellow jersey is
> 'awarded' daily and not just handed over to indicate the leader each
> day. I still won't win, but it will move me up significantly if this
> is true.
At the end of each stage they have a podium presentation where the top
three in that day's stage are trotted out, followed by overall leaders
of the sprint competition, the mountain competition, and the yellow
jersey. (I think there are a few other competitions, such as best young
rider, as well.)
I'd have to concur with Mark on this one.
--
Ted Schuerzinger
fedya at hughes dot net
Yarn, on the other hand....
Mark Brader
> > I... wait to hear evidence that the yellow jersey is
> > 'awarded' daily and not just handed over to indicate the leader each
> > day.
Ted Schuerzinger:
> At the end of each stage they have a podium presentation where the top
> three in that day's stage are trotted out, followed by overall leaders
> of the sprint competition, the mountain competition, and the yellow
> jersey.
I did not know that; "just handing it over" to the leader sounds like
a form of awarding to me.
--
Mark Brader, Toronto | sed -e "s;??\\([-=(/)'<!>]\\);?\\\\?\\1;g"
m...@vex.net | will fix them... -- Karl Heuer
Mark Brader
> Not having access to the OED, I did not consult it. But you seem to be
> saying that, even had I done so, the Oxford English Dictionary would
> not have been sufficiently authoritative for me to rely on it to
That should not be surprising. There are still large chunks that
haven't been revised significantly for over 100 years, for one thing.
And I don't believe that in the early days they took as much note of
non-British sources as they would today.
("Orange", however, is in a section that *has* been revised, and for
all I know the OED Online might list additional pronunciations.)
--
Mark Brader | "...one of the main causes of the fall of the Roman
Toronto | Empire was that, lacking zero, they had no way to
m...@vex.net | indicate successful termination of their C programs."
| -- Robert Firth
Mark Brader
> Can you define what "a 'question word' (like 'when')" means?
If I could do that, I would have. People seemed to understand it
in the previous contest. Perhaps all of them are words that, if
used alone, normally indicate a question. Certain dictionaries
define them using "?" in the definition, for example Webster's
New World, where <http://www.yourdictionary.com/when> gives "when"
the senses "at what time?", "on what occasion or under what
circumstances?", and "at what point?"
--
Mark Brader, Toronto "Big programs are a bug."
m...@vex.net -- Geoff Collyer
Mark Brader
> I'm not really sure how to interpret what is said on that page. It's
> not uncommon to see schwa in parentheses in an English dictionary. For
> instance, in my school dictionary I find ['steiS(@)n]. This does not
> mean that "station" can be pronounced in one syllable. In lieu of the
> schwa the /n/ forms the syllable core.
I can't detect any difference between /@n/ and syllabic /n/, really,
so I'm not sure what they're getting at with the parentheses. But
I'd say /n/ is only syllabic when there is no syllable that it can
be attached to. "shn" is not a possible sound at the end of a
syllable, so /...shn/ implies syllabic /n/. That's not at all true
for "rn".
> MW has ['Or(-@)ndZ] and since the hyphen is inside the parens, it
> could indicate a one-syllable pronouciation. However, I would expect
> them to list that as a separate pronounciation.
Your expectation doesn't matter. Their "pronunciation symbols" page
doesn't show parentheses, so they must mean exactly what they seem to.
--
Mark Brader, Toronto | "...ordinarily, a 65-pound alligator in an apartment
m...@vex.net | would be news." --James Barron, New York Times
Garmt de Vries
> Bruce Bowler:
>
> > Can you define what "a 'question word' (like 'when')" means?
>
> If I could do that, I would have.
So how could we have guessed that a word that, according to Webster's
New World, is "used to introduce an indirect question" is not a
question word, according to you?
Anyway, your contest, your judgment...
--
Garmt de Vries-Uiterweerd
Peter Smyth
"Mark Brader" <m...@vex.net> wrote in message
news:wsydnWnFQYw5I6zW...@vex.net...
> Bruce Bowler:
>> Can you define what "a 'question word' (like 'when')" means?
>
> If I could do that, I would have. People seemed to understand it
> in the previous contest. Perhaps all of them are words that, if
> used alone, normally indicate a question. Certain dictionaries
> define them using "?" in the definition, for example Webster's
> New World, where <http://www.yourdictionary.com/when> gives "when"
> the senses "at what time?", "on what occasion or under what
> circumstances?", and "at what point?"
http://www.yourdictionary.com/would
3. used to make a very polite or formal request - would you please open
the window?
I think this was a badly phrased question. If the question setter
doesn't know what the question means, how is anyone else supposed to
know?
Peter Smyth
Mark Brader
>>> Can you define what "a 'question word' (like 'when')" means?
Mark Brader:
>> If I could do that, I would have. People seemed to understand it
>> in the previous contest...
Peter Smyth:
> I think this was a badly phrased question. If the question setter
> doesn't know what the question means, how is anyone else supposed to
> know?
I know what it means; I just don't know a clearer way to express it.
--
Mark Brader, Toronto | "C takes the point of view that the programmer
m...@vex.net | is always right" -- Michael DeCorte
Nick Wedd
<psmyth...@THISukf.net> writes
The question setter does know, and so do I. And like him, I don't know
how to express it so that people will understand. But I'll have a shot
at it - a question word functions in the sentence like a variable, whose
value will be instantiated by answering the question.
Peter Smyth
"Mark Brader" <m...@vex.net> wrote in message
news:9LKdnXuXsdxYaKzW...@vex.net...
> Bruce Bowler:
>>>> Can you define what "a 'question word' (like 'when')" means?
>
> Mark Brader:
>>> If I could do that, I would have. People seemed to understand it
>>> in the previous contest...
>
> Peter Smyth:
>> I think this was a badly phrased question. If the question setter
>> doesn't know what the question means, how is anyone else supposed to
>> know?
>
> I know what it means; I just don't know a clearer way to express it.
If a question can't be expressed clearly then it probably shouldn't be
in the contest at all. Normally you go to great lengths to try and
provide watertight definitions in the question.
>> If I could do that, I would have. People seemed to understand it
>> in the previous contest. Perhaps all of them are words that, if
>> used alone, normally indicate a question. Certain dictionaries
>> define them using "?" in the definition, for example Webster's
>> New World, where <http://www.yourdictionary.com/when> gives "when"
>> the senses "at what time?", "on what occasion or under what
>> circumstances?", and "at what point?"
>
> http://www.yourdictionary.com/would
> 3. used to make a very polite or formal request - would you please
> open
> the window?
You snipped the bit where I queried my answer. Using the dictionary you
suggest, one of the definitions for "would" has "?" in the definition,
therefore by your rules it appears to be a "question word". "Eh" and
"Will" should probably also be accepted for the same reason.
Peter Smyth
Garmt de Vries
>
> In message <7pea4mFh4...@mid.individual.net>, Peter Smyth
> >
> >I think this was a badly phrased question. If the question setter
> >doesn't know what the question means, how is anyone else supposed to
> >know?
>
> The question setter does know, and so do I. And like him, I don't know
> how to express it so that people will understand. But I'll have a shot
> at it - a question word functions in the sentence like a variable, whose
> value will be instantiated by answering the question.
By that definition, if and whether would be question words, boolean
variables that are instantiated to yes or no by answering the
question.
--
Garmt de Vries-Uiterweerd
Esra Sdrawkcab
<r...@see.sig.invalid> wrote:
> In <Xns9CE98FAC98...@127.0.0.1>, Duncan Booth wrote:
>
>> Richard Heathfield <r...@see.sig.invalid> wrote:
>>
>>> In <peSdnYAW0aEdna3W...@vex.net>, Mark Brader wrote:
>>> 2) why Merriam-Webster (a foreign work) is considered a greater
>>> authority on the English language than Chambers (an English work),
>>> which lists exactly one pronunciation in exactly two syllables.
>>
>> Watch what you're calling English. Chambers's Dictionary is
>> published in Scotland by a company founded by a Scotsman.
>
> Any /true/ Scotsman would obviously be English.
>
I thought the Scottii came from Ireland?
--
Nuns! Reverse!
Bruce Bowler
> Bruce Bowler:
>> Can you define what "a 'question word' (like 'when')" means?
>
> If I could do that, I would have. People seemed to understand it in the
> previous contest. Perhaps all of them are words that, if used alone,
> normally indicate a question. Certain dictionaries define them using
> "?" in the definition, for example Webster's New World, where
> <http://www.yourdictionary.com/when> gives "when" the senses "at what
> time?", "on what occasion or under what circumstances?", and "at what
> point?"
Using that reference and that definition, would and will both have '?' in
their definitions (albeit not in the 1st definition). Should they not be
ruled correct based on the above?
(and in that last sentence, 'should' certainly introduces a question :-)
As others have said, your contest, your rules so what you say goes...
Bruce
Grip
I understood "question word" to mean a word that starts a question
whose answer isn't simply Yes/No.
G
Mark Brader
>>> Can you define what "a 'question word' (like 'when')" means?
Mark Brader:
>> If I could do that, I would have. People seemed to understand it in the
>> previous contest. Perhaps all of them are words that, if used alone,
>> normally indicate a question. Certain dictionaries define them using
>> "?" in the definition, for example Webster's New World, where
>> <http://www.yourdictionary.com/when> gives "when" the senses "at what
>> time?", "on what occasion or under what circumstances?", and "at what
>> point?"
Bruce Bowler:
> Using that reference and that definition, would and will both have '?' in
> their definition...
No, they have it in their usage examples.
> As others have said, your contest, your rules so what you say goes...
And in this case, I say the rulings are final.
--
Mark Brader | In order that there may be no doubt as to which is the
Toronto | bottom and which is the top ... the bottom of each
m...@vex.net | warhead [will] immediately be labeled with the word TOP.
--British Admiralty regulation, c.1968
Richard Heathfield
Only the Scottish Scots. The English Scots come from Berwick upon
Tweed.
ObPuzzle: in what sense am I right?
Erland Sommarskog
> Only the Scottish Scots. The English Scots come from Berwick upon
> Tweed.
>
> ObPuzzle: in what sense am I right?
The Anglo-Saxon Scots obviously came from the same parts of Germany as
the English did.
Erland Sommarskog
> I think this was a badly phrased question. If the question setter
> doesn't know what the question means, how is anyone else supposed to
> know?
I for the one found it quite simple. I just started to look up
interogative pronounces and adverbs in dictionaries and on Google.
Hey, I even Googled for "question word". And about all brought me to
the same small set of words, of which only one did not start with wh-.
I was considering to submit "And", as "and" is sometimes used as
(rhethoric) question on its own, but my gut feeling told me that
Mark would not accept it. (And I think he would be right.)
Erland Sommarskog
> I can't detect any difference between /@n/ and syllabic /n/, really,
> so I'm not sure what they're getting at with the parentheses. But
> I'd say /n/ is only syllabic when there is no syllable that it can
> be attached to. "shn" is not a possible sound at the end of a
> syllable, so /...shn/ implies syllabic /n/. That's not at all true
> for "rn".
True, but what other words does English have that ends in /rndZ/? Also,
if it's /orndZ/, that would be come [O:ndZ] in some varities of English.
Then again, who says that it is among those speakers that the syllable
is dropped? And since it is a recent change it does not have to happen.
Another observation is just because something can be one syllable, it
does not have to. In Croatian there are words like "grapko" that have
three syllables: gr-ap-ko. (Note: don't look up this particular word,
because I made it up. I know the pattern exists, but I've forgotten the
exact word.) But Croatian is not English, and there are certainly
plentiful of examples in many languages how multiple syllables have
been amalgated into one. An interesting discussion. Ah, that's it:
http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/interesting
\'in-t(@-)r@s-tiN; 'in-t@-,res-, 'in-,tres-; 'in-t@rs-\
So here they list three-syllable pronounciation explicitly. Then again
that may be to show the secondary stress, so maybe it did not make us
any wiser.
Anyway, it was not my entry, so who am I to object? But let me put it
this way: say that the question had been for one-syllable colours,
without any regulation that alternate multi-syllable pronoucations had
been impermissible. Say further that someone had submitted "orange"
and referred to M-W to support his claim. If you had ruled this wrong,
I would not have objected, because I think the entrant took a gamble
by stretching the question (as we often do in these contests). What
is a little odd here is that it is the quizmaster himself that stretches
the question to create a trap.
But of course, you should be allowed to have your fun!
Merry Christmas to Mark and everyone else!
Ted Schuerzinger
> I was considering to submit "And", as "and" is sometimes used as
> (rhethoric) question on its own, but my gut feeling told me that
> Mark would not accept it. (And I think he would be right.)
Other than the two answers given, the one thing I considered was
"wazzup" (see
<http://www.youtube.com/view_play_list?p=430F42D1A74584B8&playnext=1&playnext_from=PL&v=AO41L2zJlV4>),
but it wasn't in a search at dictionary.com. Maybe I should have tried
urbandictionary.com.
--
Ted Schuerzinger
fedya at hughes dot net
Now blogging at http://justacineast.blogspot.com
Mark Brader
>>>> So I'd be curious to know what OED has to say about the matter.
>>> The OED1 shows only one pronunciation (disyllabic, of course), and the
>>> Supplement does not add another. To access the OED Online, I'd have
>>> to visit a library.
>> Not having access to the OED, I did not consult it. But you seem to be
>> saying that, even had I done so, the Oxford English Dictionary would
>> not have been sufficiently authoritative for me to rely on it to
>> check potential answers to your question. ...
> That should not be surprising. There are still large chunks that
> haven't been revised significantly for over 100 years, for one thing.
> And I don't believe that in the early days they took as much note of
> non-British sources as they would today.
>
> ("Orange", however, is in a section that *has* been revised, and for
> all I know the OED Online might list additional pronunciations.)
And today I was at the library, and it does. It shows a British
pronunciation and an American one, each with an optional sound.
In the British pronunciation, the first vowel is written something like
a lower-case A, the sort built from a "c" and a single vertical stroke;
I presume this represents a short O. Then there is an r, then a small
capital I with a horizontal stroke through it, which I guess means a
short I; then n, then d in parentheses, then a symbol like a flat-topped
3 moved downward, which is the zh sound. (The j sound, of course, is
a compound of d and zh.) In the American pronunciation the first vowel
is an upside-down lower-case C, presumably meaning "aw"; then the r,
then schwa in parentheses, then n, d, and again the zh sign. In other
words: it's o-rinj, o-rinzh, aw-ruhnj, or (one syllable) awrnj.
I also checked Webster's Third while I was there. It also gives the
one-syllable pronunciation, although it says it's used "in rapid
speech esp in pl or compounds". Especially, but not exclusively.
--
Mark Brader "That's what progress is for. Progress
Toronto is for creating new forms of aggravation."
m...@vex.net -- Keith Jackson
Mark Brader
> In the British pronunciation, the first vowel is written something like
Sorry, I meant to say it's an upside-down version of that.
--
Mark Brader, Toronto "I may be ranting, but I'm right!"
m...@vex.net -- Wojeck: Out of the Fire
swp
>
> - Show quoted text -
huh? ;-)
swp
Ted Schuerzinger
> In the British pronunciation, the first vowel is written something like
> a lower-case A, the sort built from a "c" and a single vertical stroke;
> I presume this represents a short O. Then there is an r, then a small
> capital I with a horizontal stroke through it, which I guess means a
> short I; then n, then d in parentheses, then a symbol like a flat-topped
> 3 moved downward, which is the zh sound. (The j sound, of course, is
> a compound of d and zh.)
I presume you mean something like ɒrɨn(d)ʒ, only with the i not having a
dot?
> In the American pronunciation the first vowel
> is an upside-down lower-case C, presumably meaning "aw"; then the r,
> then schwa in parentheses, then n, d, and again the zh sign. In other
> words: it's o-rinj, o-rinzh, aw-ruhnj, or (one syllable) awrnj.
ɔr(ə)ndʒ
I presume I'll be castigated in the results posting for posting in
Unicode. :-)
Richard Heathfield
> Richard Heathfield (r...@see.sig.invalid) writes:
>> Only the Scottish Scots. The English Scots come from Berwick upon
>> Tweed.
>>
>> ObPuzzle: in what sense am I right?
>
> The Gaelic Scots are assumed to have migrated to Scotland from Ireland.
>
> The Anglo-Saxon Scots obviously came from the same parts of Germany as
> the English did.
I had in mind something MUCH more recent.
Mark Brader
> I presume you mean something like...
I presume you got it right, but I don't do Usenet in Unicode.
--
Mark Brader | "You guys have your own pagan religion...
Toronto | Instead of sacrificing sheep, you sacrifice sleep."
m...@vex.net | -- John Cramer
Richard Heathfield
> Erland Sommarskog wrote:
>> Richard Heathfield (r...@see.sig.invalid) writes:
>>> Only the Scottish Scots. The English Scots come from Berwick upon Tweed.
>>>
>>> ObPuzzle: in what sense am I right?
>>
>> The Gaelic Scots are assumed to have migrated to Scotland from Ireland.
>>
>> The Anglo-Saxon Scots obviously came from the same parts of Germany as
>> the English did.
>
> I had in mind something MUCH more recent.
Since everyone seems to have given up on this, I'll spoil it:
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So - what's all this about the English Scots coming from Berwick upon
Tweed? Well, Berwick Rangers is an Association Football club that is
based in England, but which plays in the Scottish League. I seem to
remember reading, some time in the 1970s, that the reason for this is
that, being a fairly small club, they find that the cost of travel to
typical Scottish grounds works out to be considerably lower than the
cost of travel to typical English venues.
Justin C
Nothing to do with Berwick having been in Scotland in the past, and the
England/Scotland border being re-drawn several times shifting Berwick's
'nationality'?
Justin.
--
Justin C, by the sea.
Richard Heathfield
<snip>
> Nothing to do with Berwick having been in Scotland in the past, and the
> England/Scotland border being re-drawn several times shifting Berwick's
> 'nationality'?
If I'd have thought of it, yes. But since I didn't, no. :-)
bootboy
been around that long.
Is it time to mention the apocryphal story about Berwick-upon-Tweed
technically being at war with Russia?
bootboy
Justin C
Shhh! You don't know who's reading this. The expansion of the empire
into Russia could be compromised.