3D Maze Represented In Two Dimensions
MarkSteere
This maze is my first puzzle, and I plan to release other puzzles in
the future.
http://marksteeregames.com/3DMaze.pdf
Almost everyone who's looked at this maze has not been able to
understand it. I've revised the instructions a couple of times, and
now it's as clear as I can make it. But it's still hard to
understand, never mind solve.
What not to do: Send me an email describing how I could make the maze
easier.
Mark
Richard Heathfield
> 3D Maze Represented In Two Dimensions
>
> This maze is my first puzzle, and I plan to release other puzzles in
> the future.
>
> http://marksteeregames.com/3DMaze.pdf
Hmmm, looks like a Blank Page from here.
>
> Almost everyone who's looked at this maze has not been able to
> understand it. I've revised the instructions a couple of times, and
> now it's as clear as I can make it.
Yes, it is very clear. It is a Blank Page.
> But it's still hard to understand, never mind solve.
But I have understood it, and I have solved it. It is a Blank Page.
> What not to do: Send me an email describing how I could make the maze
> easier.
It's already as easy as it could possibly be. It is a Blank Page.
You might want to check out whether the PDF you posted is the one you
intended to post. (Before you ask, I'm viewing it with xpdf, which
works just fine, thanks.)
--
Richard Heathfield
"Usenet is a strange place" - dmr 29/7/1999
http://www.cpax.org.uk
email: rjh at the above domain, - www.
Mark P
> MarkSteere said:
>
>> 3D Maze Represented In Two Dimensions
>>
>> This maze is my first puzzle, and I plan to release other puzzles in
>> the future.
>>
>> http://marksteeregames.com/3DMaze.pdf
>
> Hmmm, looks like a Blank Page from here.
>
>> Almost everyone who's looked at this maze has not been able to
>> understand it. I've revised the instructions a couple of times, and
>> now it's as clear as I can make it.
>
> Yes, it is very clear. It is a Blank Page.
>
>> But it's still hard to understand, never mind solve.
>
> But I have understood it, and I have solved it. It is a Blank Page.
>
>> What not to do: Send me an email describing how I could make the maze
>> easier.
>
> It's already as easy as it could possibly be. It is a Blank Page.
>
> You might want to check out whether the PDF you posted is the one you
> intended to post. (Before you ask, I'm viewing it with xpdf, which
> works just fine, thanks.)
>
Works ok for me, but just looking at it makes my head hurt.
I think for starters you (OP) need a simpler puzzle. Much simpler. As
simple as the example at the top of the page, but large enough to be
comfortably worked. I can't imagine anyone who's never seen this sort
of puzzle before not being immediately turned off if their first contact
is with the big puzzle. I'd imagine that after solving a few of these
the larger ones would seem less daunting, but I think you need to start
small.
Duncan Booth
>> This maze is my first puzzle, and I plan to release other puzzles in
>> the future.
>>
>> http://marksteeregames.com/3DMaze.pdf
>
> Hmmm, looks like a Blank Page from here.
>
Looks more like a PCB layout from here.
I think the main problem is that I understand what the example says, but I
find it almost impossible to read the combined layouts even at that size.
Jumping straight from a 5x3x2 example to a massive full page maze would, I
think, put almost anyone off.
I would suggest printing the maze in two colours with the upper floor
colour being semi-transparent so you can see the lower floor clearly
through it, and having some intermediate sizes so that you don't have to
tackle the monster immediately.
Also, I'm not sure how easy it would be to actually fill in the solution
legibly: drawing different width lines by hand isn't easy and I'd want to
block out dead-ends.
> (Before you ask, I'm viewing it with xpdf, which
> works just fine, thanks.)
xpdf displays it just fine (and not as a blank page) for me.
[Jongware]
news:1174635727.4...@p15g2000hsd.googlegroups.com...
> 3D Maze Represented In Two Dimensions
>
> This maze is my first puzzle, and I plan to release other puzzles in
> the future.
>
> http://marksteeregames.com/3DMaze.pdf
>
> Almost everyone who's looked at this maze has not been able to
> understand it. I've revised the instructions a couple of times, and
> now it's as clear as I can make it. But it's still hard to
> understand, never mind solve.
Marvellous! It makes my eyes water, though. I can't help thinking there must
be a clearer way to display such mazes -- from your description I expected a
semi-3D 'cuboid', not an x-ray of a motherboard.
Made all by hand, and in Illustrator!?
[Jw]
Kevin Stone
> easier.
I'd send you an email telling you how to make the maze more difficult, but
I'm not sure I actually can!
It reminds me of the quote 'Be afraid, be very afraid'.
--
Kev
Phil Carmody
> 3D Maze Represented In Two Dimensions
>
> This maze is my first puzzle, and I plan to release other puzzles in
> the future.
>
> http://marksteeregames.com/3DMaze.pdf
>
> Almost everyone who's looked at this maze has not been able to
> understand it. I've revised the instructions a couple of times, and
> now it's as clear as I can make it. But it's still hard to
> understand, never mind solve.
It's a trivial CA problem. Getting the data into the computer would be
the hard task.
Phil
--
"Home taping is killing big business profits. We left this side blank
so you can help." -- Dead Kennedys, written upon the B-side of tapes of
/In God We Trust, Inc./.
Richard Heathfield
> MarkSteere said:
>
>> 3D Maze Represented In Two Dimensions
>>
>> This maze is my first puzzle, and I plan to release other puzzles in
>> the future.
>>
>> http://marksteeregames.com/3DMaze.pdf
>
> Hmmm, looks like a Blank Page from here.
Hmmm. But if I wget it, it works fine. Ergo, it's a problem at my end,
not yours, and I apologise for wrongly casting aspersions.
MarkSteere
> colour being semi-transparent so you can see the lower floor clearly
> through it, and having some intermediate sizes so that you don't have to
> tackle the monster immediately.
It's been suggested and denied.
>
> Also, I'm not sure how easy it would be to actually fill in the solution
> legibly: drawing different width lines by hand isn't easy and I'd want to
> block out dead-ends.
>
That's part of the fun. You have to solve it in your mind.
MarkSteere
> Works ok for me, but just looking at it makes my head hurt.
>
> I think for starters you (OP) need a simpler puzzle. Much simpler. As
> simple as the example at the top of the page, but large enough to be
> comfortably worked.
It's been suggested and denied.
>I can't imagine anyone who's never seen this sort
> of puzzle before not being immediately turned off if their first contact
> is with the big puzzle.
The courageous are in the minority.
MarkSteere
> Hmmm. But if I wget it, it works fine. Ergo, it's a problem at my end,
> not yours, and I apologise for wrongly casting aspersions.
No problem.
MarkSteere
> Marvellous!
Thank you.
> It makes my eyes water, though. I can't help thinking there must
> be a clearer way to display such mazes -- from your description I expected a
> semi-3D 'cuboid', not an x-ray of a motherboard.
>
> Made all by hand, and in Illustrator!?
Illustrator CS. I used color coded paths for the solution, large
decoy paths, medium size decoy paths, etc. When I printed it out in
black and white, and turned it upside down, I couldn't solve it
myself. I suppose I could solve it eventually, but it quickly becomes
unpleasant and I just don't have the stamina.
MarkSteere
> I'm not sure I actually can!
>
> It reminds me of the quote 'Be afraid, be very afraid'.
I code named it "The Ballbuster" during development.
Carl G.
"Kevin Stone" <newsa...@HotPOP.com> wrote in message
news:56hp8oF...@mid.individual.net...
>> What not to do: Send me an email describing how I could make the maze
>> easier.
>
> I'd send you an email telling you how to make the maze more difficult, but
> I'm not sure I actually can!
What this maze needs is more than 2 floors and elevators that can only go in
one direction (up or down). ;-)
Here are my thoughts:
The hardest part of solving this type of maze isn't the complexity of the
maze, but the visual confusion of the combined floor diagrams. My guess is
that the diagram was created by exclusive or'ing floor 2 with floor 1. To
solve the maze, my first step would be to make pictures of the separate
floors (like the example, but I'd include elevators in both floor pictures).
Then I would start coloring in the dead ends to find the closed path. I may
also use the fact that there is (presumably) only one solution. Since there
is only supposed to be one solution, it seems likely that the closed path is
very long.
Carl G.
Brian Tung
> What not to do: Send me an email describing how I could make the maze
> easier.
Too bad. I thought the most interesting puzzle would be to make the
maze not easier, but clearer. I'm crazy that way--I don't think visual
fatigue should be the leading obstacle to solving a maze.
Looks interesting, though.
--
Brian Tung <br...@isi.edu>
The Astronomy Corner at http://astro.isi.edu/
Unofficial C5+ Home Page at http://astro.isi.edu/c5plus/
The PleiadAtlas Home Page at http://astro.isi.edu/pleiadatlas/
My Own Personal FAQ (SAA) at http://astro.isi.edu/reference/faq.html
Oliver Wong
"Kevin Stone" <newsa...@HotPOP.com> wrote in message
news:56hp8oF...@mid.individual.net...
>> easier.
>
> I'd send you an email telling you how to make the maze more difficult,
> but I'm not sure I actually can!
Perhaps by adding a 3rd floor (and thus different radius dots for
distinguish between 1-2, 2-3 and 1-3 elevators)?
- Oliver
dgates
wrote:
>> It makes my eyes water, though. I can't help thinking there must
>> be a clearer way to display such mazes -- from your description I expected a
>> semi-3D 'cuboid', not an x-ray of a motherboard.
>
>... it quickly becomes
>unpleasant and I just don't have the stamina.
All of the above were my reactions as well.
Per your request, I won't suggest anything to improve the maze.
I will say this, however: I'm enjoying reading this thread, as the
best puzzle minds around offer you suggestion and you bat them away!
:-)
Thanks.
dgates
No! 4 levels!
And don't have normal "elevators" at all, but rather "teleporters"
represented by letters! An upright letter is a transporter on the 1st
floor. Rotated 90 degrees clockwise means 2nd floor, upside-down
means 3rd floor, and rotated 270 degrees means 4th floor!
And don't even show the 3rd or 4th floor! The puzzle solver just has
to remember that their blueprints are the same as those of the 1st and
2nd floor but rotated 180 degrees!
And make the distinction between the thick lines and the thin lines
much harder to see! :-)
There are lots of ways to make it harder. At least, I imagine they'd
make it harder. You'd have to actually have someone solve the
"easier" version before you could be 100% sure that the other one is
harder.
Rich Grise
>> Works ok for me, but just looking at it makes my head hurt.
>>
>> I think for starters you (OP) need a simpler puzzle. Much simpler. As
>> simple as the example at the top of the page, but large enough to be
>> comfortably worked.
>
> It's been suggested and denied.
Well, now you're just being poopy.
I've seen the page, it renders fine, if in all black & white, but it's
incomprehensible, and I think in three dimensions or more. (actually,
I think in about seven dimensions, but I can only express stuff in the
four we have at hand. ;-) )
I'd offer to draw an actual 3D maze for you, if you weren't being
such a dork about it.
Have A Nice Day!
Rich
[Jongware]
I tried to make a semi-3D version by applying a 3D effect to the lower and upper
walls, offsetting the upper walls to 'move' them exactly on top of the lower
ones, and giving them different colors. Def'nitely better visible what's going
on -- if only my poor computer could cope up with drawing this monstrousity
:-( I had to kill the file to stop the whining of the cpu. Worth a try, tho', as
it gives a clearer idea of 'high' and 'low'.
[Jw]
MarkSteere
> I will say this, however: I'm enjoying reading this thread, as the
> best puzzle minds around offer you suggestion and you bat them away!
> :-)
All of these suggestions have been made already by the few people I
showed it to before posting it. It's a helpless mindset that I refuse
to accommodate. From the outset, my 3D maze was intended to be
extremely difficult. There's no shortage of easy puzzles. You've
always got Sudoku.
I very rarely solve mazes or puzzles, and I'm not especially skilled
at it. This 3D maze was created for hardcore puzzle people. I'm
pretty sure they exist, but in understandably small numbers.
PS It's not that big of a deal. It's only a maze.
MarkSteere
> I tried to make a semi-3D version . . .
> it gives a clearer idea of 'high' and 'low'.
>
> [Jw]
Part of the challenge is visualising and keeping track of what floor
you're on. There must be someone here who can handle this.
Ed Murphy
> http://marksteeregames.com/3DMaze.pdf
>
> Almost everyone who's looked at this maze has not been able to
> understand it. I've revised the instructions a couple of times, and
> now it's as clear as I can make it. But it's still hard to
> understand, never mind solve.
I recommend a side-by-side layout. I also recommend increasing the
height while decreasing the length and width, so that the maze becomes
closer to a cube.
MarkSteere
wrote:
> Here are my thoughts:
>
> The hardest part of solving this type of maze isn't the complexity of the
> maze, but the visual confusion of the combined floor diagrams.
Exactly. Thank you.
> My guess is
> that the diagram was created by exclusive or'ing floor 2 with floor 1.
Correct again.
> Since there
> is only supposed to be one solution . . .
There is only one solution.
MarkSteere
> Perhaps by adding a 3rd floor (and thus different radius dots for
> distinguish between 1-2, 2-3 and 1-3 elevators)?
That was my original intention, but it seemed a tad complicated.
MarkSteere
> I thought the most interesting puzzle would be to make the
> maze not easier, but clearer.
It's clear. It takes a little getting used to I suppose, but it's
clear. Another contributor correctly identified the "visual
confusion" of the maze. That was the whole idea.
Ed Murphy
Personally, I don't consider it /interestingly/ difficult. The
difficulty lies less in the maze-solving, and more in going blind
from trying to distinguish a wall on level 1 from a door on level 2.
MarkSteere
I'm just getting tired of all the baby complaints. I heard them all
already before posting. "I want a smaller one." "I want a colored
one." "I can't fill in the dead ends with a pencil." This is like
saying that you want to run in the marathon, but only if you can hop
on a moped at some point and cut across town. It's cheating.
Here's what you do: You put your finger somewhere on the maze.
That's your x-y coordinate. You also decide what floor you want to
start on. Then you start going.
What if you move to a city and take a job as a bus driver with a
complex route? What are you going to do, leave a trail of popcorn?
You learn the route. Same thing here. Learn the route. It may take
you a few days, depending on how much time you put in every day. Why
is that such a death blow?
It's not as incomprehensible as it seems at first. You wade into it
and before you know it, you'll be navigating the paths almost as fast
as you would on a 2D maze.
Simon Tatham
> I'm just getting tired of all the baby complaints. I heard them all
> already before posting. "I want a smaller one." "I want a colored
> one." "I can't fill in the dead ends with a pencil." This is like
> saying that you want to run in the marathon, but only if you can hop
> on a moped at some point and cut across town. It's cheating.
Well, hold on there; not all of those are alike. `I want a smaller
one' is like saying that you want to run in the marathon, but only
if you can practise on shorter courses _first_ - which is an
eminently sensible thing to do if you want to run a marathon and
have no previous running experience!
> Here's what you do: You put your finger somewhere on the maze.
> That's your x-y coordinate. You also decide what floor you want to
> start on. Then you start going.
And the interest in this procedure is where, exactly?
> What if you move to a city and take a job as a bus driver with a
> complex route? What are you going to do, leave a trail of popcorn?
> You learn the route. Same thing here. Learn the route. It may take
> you a few days, depending on how much time you put in every day. Why
> is that such a death blow?
If I were a bus driver, my motivation to learn the route would be
that I'd be getting paid. What's my motivation in this case?
Puzzle-solvers don't solve puzzles just because they're difficult.
They solve them because they're _fun_. Not the same thing.
This maze - and, TBH, many mazes in general, but this one even more
so - has the property that it doesn't take long to work out the
method of solution, but actually executing that method takes a large
amount of conceptually simple but careful and detailed work with a
high capacity for error if you don't pay attention. That's a
brain-worker's equivalent of hard labour; there are jobs in the
world that need it to be done, and those jobs are well paid to stop
the brain-workers getting bored and going off to do something more
interesting, but people don't generally do it for fun.
Puzzles should be things in which the _method_ of solution, not just
the actual answer, is non-obvious. A large part of the fun in
puzzle-solving is about the flash of insight when one moment you're
staring at a blank wall with no idea how to proceed, and the next
moment it all lights up and suddenly becomes clear. A certain amount
of grunt-work is forgiven if the satisfying flash of insight is
correspondingly rewarding, but a `puzzle' which is _all_ grunt-work
and no interesting bit at all is unlikely to get a good reception.
You're lucky people can tell it's boring _before_ they start solving
it; if they got most of the way through before realising there was
no interesting bit, they'd be _really_ cross.
(There are small flashes of insight to be had in maze-solving if you
haven't done any before. The technique of hugging the left-hand
wall, for example, and generalisations which make that work more
widely. But having worked those out and perhaps done them a few
times, where's the interest in mechanically executing the same
procedures on a larger scale?)
--
Simon Tatham What do we want? ROT13!
<ana...@pobox.com> When do we want it? ABJ!
Kevin Stone
>> best puzzle minds around offer you suggestion and you bat them away!
> It's a helpless mindset that I refuse
> to accommodate. From the outset, my 3D maze was intended to be
> extremely difficult. There's no shortage of easy puzzles.
Your maze isn't difficult though, it's very easy, however, you've
complicated it by the method of presentation.
I could easily formulate a Sudoku whose presentation was equally difficult.
A truly satisfying feeling comes from using one's brain to figure out a
solution method to a *difficult* puzzle. Not in decoding nonsense graphics.
A good graphical puzzle is something like QFold (http://qfold.com/). A good
brain taxing puzzle is something like NetWalks
(http://www.logicgamesonline.com/netwalk/daily.php).
--
Kev
Barry
> 3D Maze Represented In Two Dimensions
>
> This maze is my first puzzle, and I plan to release other puzzles in
> the future.
>
>
> Almost everyone who's looked at this maze has not been able to
> understand it. I've revised the instructions a couple of times, and
> now it's as clear as I can make it. But it's still hard to
> understand, never mind solve.
>
> easier.
>
>
> marksteeregames.com
>
Is anyone interested in this?
For you programmer types how would you approach it?
This morning I screen scraped it and wrote a program to make
all the balls uniform, separated and distinct from the walls.
I haven't thought about it a lot yet but separating the floors doesn't
look too difficult.
Barry
Brian Tung
> It's clear. It takes a little getting used to I suppose, but it's
> clear. Another contributor correctly identified the "visual
> confusion" of the maze. That was the whole idea.
Mazes are in general pretty boring. I'm prejudiced in that I like to be
made to think on a puzzle. The "visual confusion" of this maze makes me
think once--in order to derive the two-color marking that aids solving.
After that, the brute size of the maze merely makes it tedious--for me,
anyway. I'd find it more appealing (and no less challenging) if it
were doubled in scale (with therefore one-fourth the passageway count).
But please, don't let my constructive criticism get in your way.
Brian Tung
> I recommend a side-by-side layout. I also recommend increasing the
> height while decreasing the length and width, so that the maze becomes
> closer to a cube.
He's interested in praise, not constructive criticism. He's already
rejected that out of hand. It's perfect the way it is.
Brian Tung
> I'm just getting tired of all the baby complaints.
They're constructive comments. You don't have to pay any attention to
them. But if you're getting tired of them, then you shouldn't have
posted to rec.puzzles. If all you want is to distribute your puzzle,
just post the link like you did originally, and then bow out of the
thread. Ignore all comments--if you don't like 'em, don't read 'em.
That's a perfectly reasonable approach--it's more your dismissive
attitude that rankles.
Barry
"Brian Tung" <br...@isi.edu> wrote in message
news:eu41qj$485$1...@praesepe.isi.edu...
> MarkSteere wrote:
>> I'm just getting tired of all the baby complaints.
>
> They're constructive comments. You don't have to pay any attention to
> them. But if you're getting tired of them, then you shouldn't have
> posted to rec.puzzles. If all you want is to distribute your puzzle,
> just post the link like you did originally, and then bow out of the
> thread. Ignore all comments--if you don't like 'em, don't read 'em.
> That's a perfectly reasonable approach--it's more your dismissive
> attitude that rankles.
>
However, your reply several times with the same message is not
constructive. :-) Beating a dead horse...
Richard Heathfield
>
> Beating a dead horse...
Flogging, surely?
--
Richard Heathfield
"Usenet is a strange place" - dmr 29/7/1999
http://www.cpax.org.uk
email: rjh at the above domain, - www.
Brian Tung
> However, your reply several times with the same message is not
> constructive. :-) Beating a dead horse...
Killjoy. :)
Patrick Hamlyn
>>> I will say this, however: I'm enjoying reading this thread, as the
>>> best puzzle minds around offer you suggestion and you bat them away!
>
>> It's a helpless mindset that I refuse
>> to accommodate. From the outset, my 3D maze was intended to be
>> extremely difficult. There's no shortage of easy puzzles.
>
>Your maze isn't difficult though, it's very easy, however, you've
>complicated it by the method of presentation.
>
>I could easily formulate a Sudoku whose presentation was equally difficult.
>
>A truly satisfying feeling comes from using one's brain to figure out a
>solution method to a *difficult* puzzle. Not in decoding nonsense graphics.
>
>A good graphical puzzle is something like QFold (http://qfold.com/).
Thanks for the reminder! I did the first three then went away and forgot about
them. Now I have a dozen to catch up on.
>... A good
>brain taxing puzzle is something like NetWalks
>(http://www.logicgamesonline.com/netwalk/daily.php).
--
Patrick Hamlyn posting from Perth, Western Australia
Windsurfing capital of the Southern Hemisphere
Moderator: polyforms group (polyforms...@egroups.com)
Patrick Hamlyn
>A good graphical puzzle is something like QFold (http://qfold.com/
I just discovered a way (by accident) to make a Mark Steere-style puzzle from a
QFold. Simply print two different ones on the same sheet and try to solve them
both at the same time!
MarkSteere
> . . . where's the interest in mechanically executing the same
> procedures on a larger scale?
Apparently giant jigsaw puzzles have somehow escaped your
authoritative purview.
MarkSteere
>
> But please, don't let my constructive criticism get in your way.
>
Criticism isn't always accommodated. That's my prerogative.
MarkSteere
Thank you for articulating that for me. You're right. The maze is
fine as it is. No dummifying necessary.
If it's incomprehensible to you, then it's out of your league.
Brian Tung
> If it's incomprehensible to you, then it's out of your league.
Not incomprehensible. Just painful.
Simon Tatham
> Apparently giant jigsaw puzzles have somehow escaped your
> authoritative purview.
I think I'd have to agree with your implicit assertion that jigsaw
puzzles are a little too mechanical to be of interest to someone
who's after a _puzzle_ in my sense. Indeed, I hardly ever do jigsaw
puzzles, for pretty much this reason. And the people I know who _do_
do jigsaw puzzles are not generally the same people who appreciate
puzzles such as the one given in (for example) Nick Atty's recent
post <nfua03p7iqpbhe876...@4ax.com> .
Jigsaw puzzles try to deal with the unrewarding nature of the
intellectual work by grafting on the reward of getting to see the
full picture when you've finished them. I'm not a huge fan of that
approach, but it's better than no reward at all.
--
Simon Tatham "The difference between theory and practice is
<ana...@pobox.com> that, in theory, there is no difference."
Oliver Wong
I found it interesting that you claimed "Almost everyone who's looked
at this maze has not been able to understand it. I've revised the
instructions a couple of times, and now it's as clear as I can make it.
But it's still hard to understand, never mind solve." and yet the rules
seemed perfectly clear to me, and looks like several other posters here
have grasped it as well. Perhaps you're misestimating the difficulty of
various aspects of your maze, or misinterpreting the reactions you're
getting? E.g. perhaps you are interpreting messages of the form "I'm not
interested in solving this puzzle" with "I don't understand this puzzle"
or "I am unable to solve this puzzle"?
"Barry" <bar...@nullhighstream.net> wrote in message
news:130auju...@corp.supernews.com...
>
> Is anyone interested in this?
>
> For you programmer types how would you approach it?
<joke>
One day a mathematician decides that he is sick of math. So, he walks down
to the fire department and announces that he wants to become a fireman.
The fire chief says, "Well, you look like a good guy. I'd be glad to hire
you, but first I have to give you a little test."
The firechief takes the mathematcian to the alley behind the fire
department which contains a dumpster, a spigot, and a hose. The chief then
says, "OK, you're walking in the alley and you see the dumpster here is on
fire. What do you do?"
The mathematician replies, "Well, I hook up the hose to the spigot, turn
the water on, and put out the fire."
The chief says, "That's great... perfect. Now I have to ask you just one
more question. What do you do if you're walking down the alley and you see
the dumpster is not on fire?"
The mathematician puzzles over the question for awhile and he finally
says, "I light the dumpster on fire."
The chief yells, "What? That's horrible! Why would you light the dumpster
on fire?"
The mathematician replies, "Well, that way I reduce the problem to one
I've already solved."
</joke>
After looking at the "3D" maze for maybe 10 seconds, I've reduced it
to an already solved problem, that of a "normal" maze, and lost interest
after that.
- Oliver
Grip
It'd be a challenge to dig a 5'x5'x5' hole using only my mouth. Even
if I loved digging holes, I wouldn't accept that 'challenge' either.
It's not that people here can't 'handle' your puzzle, it's that you're
puzzle is not fun to solve.
Your attitude doesn't help either.
G
MarkSteere
>
> One day a mathematician decides that he is sick of math. So, he walks down
God, blah blah blah blah blah. You need to make your point a little
more succinctly.
> After looking at the "3D" maze for maybe 10 seconds, I've reduced it
> to an already solved problem, that of a "normal" maze, and lost interest
> after that.
Ok, I'm getting tired of talking about this, but in summary: The maze
is difficult for many but not all. Of those who do understand it, the
majority are not interested. You seemed to be expressing interest
yourself, at least in the concept, at one point:
You said: "Perhaps by adding a 3rd floor (and thus different radius
dots for distinguish between 1-2, 2-3 and 1-3 elevators)?"
The challenge of the maze, for those who don't find it
"incomprehensible," is obviously mental endurance. Reducing it to an
"already solved problem" is a lot different from actually solving it.
If it's not your cup of tea, fine. I'm not going to lose sleep
because Oliver Wong doesn't want to solve my maze.
There were a couple of positive comments here, though clearly in the
minority, as I expected. There is no doubt in my mind that some
readers have already solved it or are actively doing so.
MarkSteere
Tough crap.
Oliver Wong
> On Mar 26, 6:46 am, "Oliver Wong" <o...@castortech.com> wrote:
>>
>> One day a mathematician decides that he is sick of math. So, he walks
>> down
>> to the fire department and announces [snip]
>
> God, blah blah blah blah blah. You need to make your point a little
> more succinctly.
I think you have a strange definition of "need". For what it's worth,
the second part of the message, the one with the mathematician joke, was
more directed towards Barry than to you.
>
>> After looking at the "3D" maze for maybe 10 seconds, I've reduced
>> it
>> to an already solved problem, that of a "normal" maze, and lost
>> interest
>> after that.
>
> Ok, I'm getting tired of talking about this, but in summary: The maze
> is difficult for many but not all. Of those who do understand it, the
> majority are not interested. You seemed to be expressing interest
> yourself, at least in the concept, at one point:
>
> You said: "Perhaps by adding a 3rd floor (and thus different radius
> dots for distinguish between 1-2, 2-3 and 1-3 elevators)?"
Right. I'm more interested in alternative expressions of the same
problem (a multi-floored 2D maze), than actually, directly solving the
problem itself. But also the 3rd floor idea which you quoted was in the
context of answering someone else's (implied) question of "How could we
make this more difficult?".
>
> The challenge of the maze, for those who don't find it
> "incomprehensible," is obviously mental endurance. Reducing it to an
> "already solved problem" is a lot different from actually solving it.
I don't disagree. The mathematician joke was a bit of self-deprecation
to "soften" the impact of the upcoming criticism of the maze.
>
> If it's not your cup of tea, fine. I'm not going to lose sleep
> because Oliver Wong doesn't want to solve my maze.
It was not my intent to cause you to lose sleep, and I carefully tried
to follow your instructions of not citing ways to make the maze easier (I
mention this as supporting evidence to my claim that I'm not trying to be
antagonistic towards you). The parts where I say essentially say "I'm not
interested in this maze" was in response to Barry's question "Is anyone
interested in this maze?".
>
> There were a couple of positive comments here, though clearly in the
> minority, as I expected. There is no doubt in my mind that some
> readers have already solved it or are actively doing so.
Same here.
- Oliver
Bobo The Chimp
> On Mar 23, 2:00 pm, dgates <dga...@somedomain.com> wrote:
>
>> I will say this, however: I'm enjoying reading this thread, as the
>> best puzzle minds around offer you suggestion and you bat them away!
>> :-)
>
> All of these suggestions have been made already by the few people I
> showed it to before posting it. It's a helpless mindset that I refuse
> to accommodate.
This raises the question:
Go fuck yourself.
--
Cheers!
Rich^H^H^H^HBoBo
Bobo The Chimp
> On Mar 23, 4:50 pm, "[Jongware]" <IdontWantS...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>> I tried to make a semi-3D version . . .
>> it gives a clearer idea of 'high' and 'low'.
>
> you're on. There must be someone here who can handle this.
Ah, now I get it. You're a desperately lonely googler who thinks
that there might be another being on the planet with a mind as twisted
as your own.
Maybe you should go troll "Myspace" or something.
--
Good Luck!
Rich^H^H^H^HBoBo
Sandbox Moderator
So, what makes you think anyone would be interested in following your own
crap?
Thanks,
Rich
MarkSteere
>
> This raises the question:
> Go fuck yourself.
>
What grade are you in, Bobo?
CBFalconer
>
... snip ...
>
> This raises the question: Go fuck yourself.
PLONK
--
Chuck F (cbfalconer at maineline dot net)
Available for consulting/temporary embedded and systems.
<http://cbfalconer.home.att.net>
--
Posted via a free Usenet account from http://www.teranews.com
MarkSteere
>
> PLONK
>
What's this, Revenge of the Kindergarteners? Get out of my thread.
Richard Heathfield
This isn't your thread. This is a Usenet thread. You merely began it.
CBFalconer
This is Usenet. Everything is public.
--
<http://www.cs.auckland.ac.nz/~pgut001/pubs/vista_cost.txt>
<http://www.securityfocus.com/columnists/423>
<http://www.aaxnet.com/editor/edit043.html>
"A man who is right every time is not likely to do very much."
-- Francis Crick, co-discover of DNA
"There is nothing more amazing than stupidity in action."
-- Thomas Matthews
Richard Heathfield
> MarkSteere wrote:
>> On Apr 3, 8:35 pm, CBFalconer <cbfalco...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>>
>>> PLONK
>>
>> What's this, Revenge of the Kindergarteners? Get out of my thread.
>
> This is Usenet. Everything is public.
Except in comp.lang.c++ :-)
Phil Carmody
> CBFalconer said:
>
> > MarkSteere wrote:
> >> On Apr 3, 8:35 pm, CBFalconer <cbfalco...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> >>
> >>> PLONK
> >>
> >> What's this, Revenge of the Kindergarteners? Get out of my thread.
> >
> > This is Usenet. Everything is public.
>
> Except in comp.lang.c++ :-)
Where I hear you don't keep your privates protected.
Phil
--
"Home taping is killing big business profits. We left this side blank
so you can help." -- Dead Kennedys, written upon the B-side of tapes of
/In God We Trust, Inc./.
Walter D. Pullen
>http://marksteeregames.com/3DMaze.pdf
>But it's still hard to understand, never mind solve.
There's been discussion about whether this Maze is good or bad, but nobody's
actually solved it yet, so I figured it was time for someone to do so. :)
I admittedly got a computer to solve it for me, where my puzzle was
converting the Maze into a format I've dealt with before, i.e. that the
computer knows how to work with. Specifically my Maze program "Daedalus"
can solve 3D Mazes (see link in my signature for a pointer to it) so I
proceeded to extract the levels and compose a 3D Maze for it as follows:
First view the PDF at 100%, take a screenshot, crop, and save as a
monochrome bitmap. We now want to separate the levels from each other, which
indeed were originally XOR'ed together. Passages are 16 pixels apart, or 8
pixels between a passage and a wall. The 1st floor has wide walls (i.e. they
stick out so the 2nd floor doesn't interfere with it), so taking every 8th
pixel across and down starting from coordinates (1, 1) will get a proper and
simplified version of the 1st floor where passages and walls are both one
pixel across. Zoom the simplified 1st floor so walls are 9 pixels and
passages are 7 pixels, and XOR the result with the original Maze. That
removes the 1st floor, leaving the 2nd. Take every 8th pixel in the result
to get a proper and simplified version of the 2nd floor. For the elevators
between floors, the middle of each cell is empty unless there's a dot
indicating a level change, so take every 16th pixel across and down starting
from the upper left cell to see where the level changes are. Combine the
three subbitmaps into a two level 3D bitmap. The above can be done in any
decent bitmap editor (I used Daedalus itself).
I then just ran the "Fill Dead Ends" command in Daedalus to remove all dead
ends, which leaves only cycles. Sure enough, there's only one cycle in the
Maze, which is the solution to find. The cycle is very long, and winds
throughout much of the Maze's area! Trivia: The 3D Maze is 37x50x2 passages.
There are exactly 439 dead ends in it. There are 541 total level changes,
176 of which are used by the solution cycle.
A picture of the solution is at: http://www.astrolog.org/other/msteere.gif
Red lines are passages on the 1st floor, and blue are passages on the 2nd
(and purple locations are where 1st and 2nd floor passages overlap). Green
dots are level changes on the solution path, and yellow dots are
non-solution level changes.
Once the Maze is in Daedalus format, there are fun things you can do with
it, such as render and walk through it in 3D first person! To give an idea
of the complexity of the solution cycle path, a 3D rendering of it after
dead ends have been removed is at: http://www.astrolog.org/other/msteere.jpg
O*O*O*O*O*O*O*O*O*O*O*O*O*O*O*O*O*O*O*O*O*O*O*O*O*O*O*O*O*O*O*O*O*O*O*O*O*O
* Walter D. "Cruiser1" Pullen :) ! Ast...@msn.com *
O Daedalus 2.1 homepage: http://www.astrolog.org/labyrnth/daedalus.htm O
*O*O*O*O*O*O*O*O*O*O*O*O*O*O*O*O*O*O*O*O*O*O*O*O*O*O*O*O*O*O*O*O*O*O*O*O*O*