SCWC 42: Comments
Paddy Grove
etc. (but not entries, apart from "bonus" clues, if any)
relating to the Simple Clue Writing Competition, no. 42.
--
Paddy Grove, Cambridge, UK
Angus Rodgers
<paddy...@hotNOSPAMPLEASEmail.com> wrote:
>This is the thread for comments, questions, raspberries,
>etc. (but not entries, apart from "bonus" clues, if any)
>relating to the Simple Clue Writing Competition, no. 42.
Beautifully put, if I may say so. :-)
--
Angus Rodgers
(twirlip@ eats spam; reply to angusrod@)
Contains mild peril
Paddy Grove
> On Fri, 02 Nov 2007 15:35:10 +0000, Paddy Grove
> <paddy...@hotNOSPAMPLEASEmail.com> wrote:
>
>> This is the thread for comments, questions, raspberries,
>> etc. (but not entries, apart from "bonus" clues, if any)
>> relating to the Simple Clue Writing Competition, no. 42.
>
> Beautifully put, if I may say so. :-)
I admit it, I'm lazy. (In fact I hadn't even read it thoroughly until
just now :-))
Mark Brader
> All entries are to be received by midnight (GMT/UTC/Z/...)
> on Friday 16 November 2007.
Sigh. Which one?
--
Mark Brader "How many pessimists end up by desiring
Toronto the things they fear, in order to prove
m...@vex.net that they are right." -- Robert Mallet
Flying Tortoise
Where a certain animal can be found: Andorran-German zone (5)
Animal*s* Shirley? Unless they sing different words in far flung
outposts of the Empire?
Peter T. Daniels
My query is more basic What's the/an Andooran-German zone?
vinyl1
"Flying Tortoise" <purpl...@googlemail.com> wrote in message
news:1194096894.2...@57g2000hsv.googlegroups.com...
I like my other clue better, although I don' t know if it will appeal to the
UK-based.
Mark Brader
> Where an animal is found, you will also find a cook! (5)
>
> Where a certain animal can be found: Andorran-German zone (5)
> outposts of the Empire?
Shirley, consider "the platypus is an animal found in Australia".
--
Mark Brader | The "I didn't think of that" type of failure occurs because
Toronto | I didn't think of that, and the reason I didn't think of it
m...@vex.net | is because it never occurred to me. If we'd been able to
| think of 'em, we would have. -- John W. Campbell
Flying Tortoise
> Barry Etheridge quotes:
>
> > Where an animal is found, you will also find a cook! (5)
>
> > Where a certain animal can be found: Andorran-German zone (5)
>
> And comments:
>
> > Animal*s* Shirley? Unless they sing different words in far flung
> > outposts of the Empire?
>
> Shirley, consider "the platypus is an animal found in Australia".
And? Platypus and kangaroo are animals found in Australia! Last time I
looked, deer and antelope were not the same species.
Mark Brader
>>> Where an animal is found, you will also find a cook! (5)
>>> Where a certain animal can be found: Andorran-German zone (5)
>>>
>>> outposts of the Empire?
>> Shirley, consider "the platypus is an animal found in Australia".
> And? Platypus and kangaroo are animals found in Australia!
> Last time I looked, deer and antelope were not the same species.
Er, Barry, was there a point in that, or was it somehow meant to be funny?
--
Mark Brader, Toronto | "C takes the point of view that the programmer
m...@vex.net | is always right" -- Michael DeCorte
Flying Tortoise
> Barry Etheridge and I (Mark Brader) wrote:
>
> >>> Where an animal is found, you will also find a cook! (5)
> >>> Where a certain animal can be found: Andorran-German zone (5)
>
> >>> Animal*s* Shirley? Unless they sing different words in far flung
> >>> outposts of the Empire?
> >> Shirley, consider "the platypus is an animal found in Australia".
> > And? Platypus and kangaroo are animals found in Australia!
> > Last time I looked, deer and antelope were not the same species.
>
> Er, Barry, was there a point in that, or was it somehow meant to be funny?
Yes
Mark Brader
Okay, I confess to a whoosh. I missed the word "sing", so I didn't
see that the followup was intended to explain that Barry for some
reason had had a particular song in mind, and incidentally, one which
I would rather had never been written.
--
Mark Brader, Toronto | "If we gave people a choice, there would be chaos."
m...@vex.net | -- Dick McDonald
Peter T. Daniels
wrote:
Mark I:
Cook's aid used to be head of General Electric (5)
This could only work if "aid" can do double duty as "aide" as well,
for an aid can't be a person (bur fits RANGE), and only a person can
have run G. E.
Vari L. Cinicke
The OED lists under aid, n:
7. a. A person who renders help or assistance; a helper, an assistant;
b. U.S. = AIDE.
Chambers:
aid noun 1 help. 2 help or support in the form of money, supplies or
services given to people who need it. 3 (often in compounds) a person or
thing that helps do something
--
Cheers,
vc
Peter T. Daniels
> Peter T. Daniels wrote:
> > On Nov 2, 10:35 am, Paddy Grove <paddy_gr...@hotNOSPAMPLEASEmail.com>
> > wrote:
> >> This is the thread for comments, questions, raspberries,
> >> etc. (but not entries, apart from "bonus" clues, if any)
> >> relating to the Simple Clue Writing Competition, no. 42.
> >> --
> >> Paddy Grove, Cambridge, UK
>
> > Mark I:
>
> > Cook's aid used to be head of General Electric (5)
>
> > This could only work if "aid" can do double duty as "aide" as well,
> > for an aid can't be a person (bur fits RANGE), and only a person can
> > have run G. E.
>
> The OED lists under aid, n:
>
> 7. a. A person who renders help or assistance; a helper, an assistant;
> b. U.S. = AIDE.
?? Which edition? Not in my OED!
It claims, under the main entry for Aide, that it's short for aide-de-
camp; both citations are American (the second from 1876) and it's
certainly not apparent from them that it's any such shortening.
> Chambers:
>
> aid noun 1 help. 2 help or support in the form of money, supplies or
> services given to people who need it. 3 (often in compounds) a person or
> thing that helps do something
Not in a compound here.
Flying Tortoise
> On Nov 5, 11:24 pm, "Vari L. Cinicke" <cini...@netscape.net> wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
> > Peter T. Daniels wrote:
> > > On Nov 2, 10:35 am, Paddy Grove <paddy_gr...@hotNOSPAMPLEASEmail.com>
> > > wrote:
> > >> This is the thread for comments, questions, raspberries,
> > >> etc. (but not entries, apart from "bonus" clues, if any)
> > >> relating to the Simple Clue Writing Competition, no. 42.
> > >> --
> > >> Paddy Grove, Cambridge, UK
>
> > > Mark I:
>
> > > Cook's aid used to be head of General Electric (5)
>
> > > This could only work if "aid" can do double duty as "aide" as well,
> > > for an aid can't be a person (bur fits RANGE), and only a person can
> > > have run G. E.
>
> > The OED lists under aid, n:
>
> > 7. a. A person who renders help or assistance; a helper, an assistant;
> > b. U.S. = AIDE.
>
> ?? Which edition? Not in my OED!
>
> It claims, under the main entry for Aide, that it's short for aide-de-
> camp; both citations are American (the second from 1876) and it's
> certainly not apparent from them that it's any such shortening.
>
Well it is! That's why 'aide' is usually reserved for politics,
diplomacy, and the military. An assistant in more mundane profession
such as cheffery would not be an 'aide' but could be an 'aid'.
As is so often the case, you have declaimed on American usage without
any reference to actual practice. Please visit http://www.zianet.com/demsrcnt/pg_staff.htm
which lists the staff at Deming Senior Citizen's Centre, New Mexico (I
assume New Mexico has not ceded from the USA?) where you will find
that Soccorro Gutierrez and Socorro Chavez both hold the post
of ........ Cook's Aid!
Vari L. Cinicke
> On Nov 5, 11:24 pm, "Vari L. Cinicke" <cini...@netscape.net> wrote:
>> Peter T. Daniels wrote:
>>> On Nov 2, 10:35 am, Paddy Grove <paddy_gr...@hotNOSPAMPLEASEmail.com>
>>> wrote:
>>>> This is the thread for comments, questions, raspberries,
>>>> etc. (but not entries, apart from "bonus" clues, if any)
>>>> relating to the Simple Clue Writing Competition, no. 42.
>>>> --
>>>> Paddy Grove, Cambridge, UK
>>> Mark I:
>>> Cook's aid used to be head of General Electric (5)
>>> This could only work if "aid" can do double duty as "aide" as well,
>>> for an aid can't be a person (bur fits RANGE), and only a person can
>>> have run G. E.
>> The OED lists under aid, n:
>>
>> 7. a. A person who renders help or assistance; a helper, an assistant;
>> b. U.S. = AIDE.
>
> ?? Which edition? Not in my OED!
>
> It claims, under the main entry for Aide, that it's short for aide-de-
> camp; both citations are American (the second from 1876) and it's
> certainly not apparent from them that it's any such shortening.
>
Current online edition. What edition is yours?
>> Chambers:
>>
>> aid noun 1 help. 2 help or support in the form of money, supplies or
>> services given to people who need it. 3 (often in compounds) a person or
>> thing that helps do something
>
> Not in a compound here.
>
"Often in compounds" always means that some of the time it is not used
in compounds.
You don't appear to have any objections that stand scrutiny. I believe
that an actual dictionary definition trumps vague objections.
--
Cheers,
vc
Peter T. Daniels
> Peter T. Daniels wrote:
> > On Nov 5, 11:24 pm, "Vari L. Cinicke" <cini...@netscape.net> wrote:
> >> Peter T. Daniels wrote:
> >>> On Nov 2, 10:35 am, Paddy Grove <paddy_gr...@hotNOSPAMPLEASEmail.com>
> >>> wrote:
> >>>> This is the thread for comments, questions, raspberries,
> >>>> etc. (but not entries, apart from "bonus" clues, if any)
> >>>> relating to the Simple Clue Writing Competition, no. 42.
> >>>> --
> >>>> Paddy Grove, Cambridge, UK
> >>> Mark I:
> >>> Cook's aid used to be head of General Electric (5)
> >>> This could only work if "aid" can do double duty as "aide" as well,
> >>> for an aid can't be a person (bur fits RANGE), and only a person can
> >>> have run G. E.
> >> The OED lists under aid, n:
>
> >> 7. a. A person who renders help or assistance; a helper, an assistant;
> >> b. U.S. = AIDE.
>
> > ?? Which edition? Not in my OED!
>
> > It claims, under the main entry for Aide, that it's short for aide-de-
> > camp; both citations are American (the second from 1876) and it's
> > certainly not apparent from them that it's any such shortening.
>
> Current online edition. What edition is yours?
The original, as reproduced in the Compact OED.
> >> Chambers:
>
> >> aid noun 1 help. 2 help or support in the form of money, supplies or
> >> services given to people who need it. 3 (often in compounds) a person or
> >> thing that helps do something
>
> > Not in a compound here.
>
> "Often in compounds" always means that some of the time it is not used
> in compounds.
>
> You don't appear to have any objections that stand scrutiny. I believe
> that an actual dictionary definition trumps vague objections.
As a linguist, I know that dictionary definitions are drawn from
examples of actual usage and not from someone's view of what usage
"should" be.
Peter T. Daniels
That's completely impossible in American English.
> As is so often the case, you have declaimed on American usage without
> any reference to actual practice.
Only nearly 56 years' experience of actual practice with the American
English language.
> Please visithttp://www.zianet.com/demsrcnt/pg_staff.htm
> which lists the staff at Deming Senior Citizen's Centre, New Mexico (I
> assume New Mexico has not ceded from the USA?) where you will find
> that Soccorro Gutierrez and Socorro Chavez both hold the post
> of ........ Cook's Aid!-
I find it highly unlikely that an institution in New Mexico is called
a "Centre," but if it is, it exposes an intense Anglophilia that could
be reflected in the erroneous spelling <Aid> for a person.
Moreover, the varying spellings of what seems to be the same first
name do not inspire confidence in the proofreading skills of the
typist.
And, it all may have been composed by a Hispanophone who learned
English somewhere in Latin America from a Brit!
Vari L. Cinicke
> This is the thread for comments, questions, raspberries,
> etc. (but not entries, apart from "bonus" clues, if any)
> relating to the Simple Clue Writing Competition, no. 42.
Bonus clues
Line left out of right angle? (5)
Entrance more than half with key shift to repertoire! (5)
Mountain chain called the beginning of Everest (5)
--
Cheers,
vc
Flying Tortoise
Unless you happen to be in New Mexico?
Or Carterville ... http://jamesvaughn.ebloggy.com/
Or Middletown CT ... http://www.amazon.com/gp/cdp/member-reviews/A1OQ3LJKRCLPS7?ie=UTF8&sort_by=MostRecentReview
Or you're Langston Hughes ... http://www.millikin.edu/aci/crow/chronology/hughesbio.html
Or you're looking for a job in Georgia ... http://www.uhs-pruitt.com/
Or you're a member of UTAG in Utah ...
How many Americans does it take to determine what's possible in
American English then?
>
> > As is so often the case, you have declaimed on American usage without
> > any reference to actual practice.
>
> Only nearly 56 years' experience of actual practice with the American
> English language.
Your belief that you are the centre, sorry, center of the Universe and
that you define and represent all that is American is touching ... or
should that be touched?
>
> > Please visithttp://www.zianet.com/demsrcnt/pg_staff.htm
> > which lists the staff at Deming Senior Citizen's Centre, New Mexico (I
> > assume New Mexico has not ceded from the USA?) where you will find
> > that Soccorro Gutierrez and Socorro Chavez both hold the post
> > of ........ Cook's Aid!-
>
> I find it highly unlikely that an institution in New Mexico is called
> a "Centre," but if it is, it exposes an intense Anglophilia that could
> be reflected in the erroneous spelling <Aid> for a person.
>
> Moreover, the varying spellings of what seems to be the same first
> name do not inspire confidence in the proofreading skills of the
> typist.
>
> And, it all may have been composed by a Hispanophone who learned
> English somewhere in Latin America from a Brit!
Nice rant but you could have just gone to the site to verify that it
is, of course, 'Center' and that I merely unconsciously transposed the
letters in my transcript, and that the variant of Socorro is merely a
typo on my part. But then you'd have to admit you weren't entirely
right which I expect to see some moments before elephants learn to
fly. If you're going to declare yourself an 'authority' then I'd
recommend some research beyond the end of the street .... but that's
just me!
Flying Tortoise
..... yet reserve the right to argue in completely the opposite
direction when it suits me.
Vari L. Cinicke
Are you attempting to argue that a print edition from a year you choose
not to divulge supersedes a current online version?
It certainly sounds that way.
>>>> Chambers:
>>>> aid noun 1 help. 2 help or support in the form of money, supplies or
>>>> services given to people who need it. 3 (often in compounds) a person or
>>>> thing that helps do something
>>> Not in a compound here.
>> "Often in compounds" always means that some of the time it is not used
>> in compounds.
>>
>> You don't appear to have any objections that stand scrutiny. I believe
>> that an actual dictionary definition trumps vague objections.
>
> As a linguist, I know that dictionary definitions are drawn from
> examples of actual usage and not from someone's view of what usage
> "should" be.
>
Whether you are a linguist or not is truly irrelevant to the meaning of
"often in compounds." I hope you can see that non-compound uses must
exist to force a dictionary to mark it "often in compounds."
I believe the dictionaries support the clue fully. The numerous uses of
"cook's aid" in the US media including the NY Times supports this clue
in the US too. Perhaps you are thinking of a very narrow and parochial
restriction that would disallow this usage.
--
Cheers,
vc
Vari L. Cinicke
Now for a really silly bonus clue with a surface reading evoking the
life of someone with OCD!
Wander about, reach array, group beginnings to ends of run, explore and
arrange in a line! (5)
One way to read it is as a 8-fold definition with
Wander about = reach = array = group = beginnings to ends of = run =
explore = arrange in a line = DEF
The other is
Wander about = DEF
reach array group beginnings = rag +
to ends of run explore = ne
arrange in a line = anagram indicator
--
Cheers,
vc
Mark Brader
> ..... yet [you] reserve the right to argue in completely the opposite
> direction when it suits me.
--
Mark Brader | "...the average homeowner should expect...
Toronto | meteor damage every hundred million years."
m...@vex.net | --Robert Nemiroff & Jerry Bonnell
Peter T. Daniels
I assumed you know that the OED began publication in
18mubletymumblety. I can never find the list of dates of publication
of the fascicles that's somewhere in one of the introductions to one
of the versions of the supplements. I want to say 1883, but I'm not
sure that's accurate.
> >>>> Chambers:
> >>>> aid noun 1 help. 2 help or support in the form of money, supplies or
> >>>> services given to people who need it. 3 (often in compounds) a person or
> >>>> thing that helps do something
> >>> Not in a compound here.
> >> "Often in compounds" always means that some of the time it is not used
> >> in compounds.
>
> >> You don't appear to have any objections that stand scrutiny. I believe
> >> that an actual dictionary definition trumps vague objections.
>
> > As a linguist, I know that dictionary definitions are drawn from
> > examples of actual usage and not from someone's view of what usage
> > "should" be.
>
> Whether you are a linguist or not is truly irrelevant to the meaning of
> "often in compounds." I hope you can see that non-compound uses must
> exist to force a dictionary to mark it "often in compounds."
>
> I believe the dictionaries support the clue fully. The numerous uses of
> "cook's aid" in the US media including the NY Times supports this clue
> in the US too. Perhaps you are thinking of a very narrow and parochial
> restriction that would disallow this usage.
Funny, I've never seen any such usage. A "cook's aid" would be, say, a
range. (In New York we call that a stove. In England I gather they
call it a cooker.) Or more likely a Cuisinart sort of thing -- some
nonessential labor-saver; or some purpose-built (another British term)
gadget that you wonder how you ever did without after you get one.
Peter T. Daniels
Too bad you didn't make the last one an official entry.
Paddy neglected to put a limit on the number of entries this time,
IIRC.
Steve Ball
> Paddy neglected to put a limit on the number of entries this time,
> IIRC.
>> All entries are to be received by midnight (GMT/UTC/Z/...)
>> on Friday 16 November 2007. Each contestant may enter up
>> to three clues. (Any number of "bonus" clues may also be
>> posted to the comments thread, of course.)
>>
>>
>> --
>> Paddy Grove, Cambridge, UK
You're not having a good day, Peter.
--
Steve = : ^ )
Vari L. Cinicke
There is still have time to update which of our clues are official.
Thanks for the feedback.
--
Cheers,
vc
Paddy Grove
> Paddy Grove writes:
>> All entries are to be received by midnight (GMT/UTC/Z/...)
>> on Friday 16 November 2007.
>
I really must learn to proofread my copy-and-paste posts. In this case,
the chances of it mattering are slim. I'm unlikely to start looking at
entries on (my) Saturday, so as long as anyone's entry says it was
posted on their Friday, it'll be accepted.
Flying Tortoise
Funny indeed since I just provided over half a dozen citations from
hundreds found on American websites written by Americans for
Americans.
>A "cook's aid" would be, say, a
> range. (In New York we call that a stove.
And yet strangely I didn't find any instance of this usage. Go figure!
>In England I gather they
> call it a cooker.) Or more likely a Cuisinart sort of thing -- some
> nonessential labor-saver; or some purpose-built (another British term)
> gadget that you wonder how you ever did without after you get one.
Like a dictionary, you mean?
Flying Tortoise
> On Nov 6, 4:12 pm, "Vari L. Cinicke" <cini...@netscape.net> wrote:
>
> > Paddy Grove wrote:
> > > This is the thread for comments, questions, raspberries,
> > > etc. (but not entries, apart from "bonus" clues, if any)
> > > relating to the Simple Clue Writing Competition, no. 42.
>
> > Bonus clues
>
> > Line left out of right angle? (5)
>
> > Entrance more than half with key shift to repertoire! (5)
>
> > Mountain chain called the beginning of Everest (5)
>
> Too bad you didn't make the last one an official entry.
>
"the beginning of X"?
May I suggest ...
Mountain chain called "Everest" at first (5)
Peter T. Daniels
What I saw was one citation from a New Mexico "Centre" that may have
been written by a Hispanophone.
> >A "cook's aid" would be, say, a
> > range. (In New York we call that a stove.
>
> And yet strangely I didn't find any instance of this usage. Go figure!
Of _what_ usage? The thing is a stove, pure and simple.
Or, you didn't find "cook's aid" anywhere? It was invented by Mark I.
for his clue, and since it's an ordinary noun phrase of English (and
not an idiom), its meaning is derivable from the meanings of its
parts, and its appearance was a trivial example of "linguistic
creativity" -- every day, you utter many things that have never been
uttered before.
> >In England I gather they
> > call it a cooker.) Or more likely a Cuisinart sort of thing -- some
> > nonessential labor-saver; or some purpose-built (another British term)
> > gadget that you wonder how you ever did without after you get one.
>
> Like a dictionary, you mean?-
You can apply "gadget" to a dictionary?
Vari L. Cinicke
Even funnier is the American Heritage Dictionary which lists the following:
aid
NOUN: 1. The act or result of helping; assistance. 2a. An assistant or
helper. b. A device that assists: visual aids such as slides. c. A
hearing aid. 3. An aide or aide-de-camp. 4. A monetary payment to a
feudal lord by a vassal in medieval England.
Seems unequivocal and the usage you claim as the only possible use is
listed as 2b after 2a which is the use the clue made use of.
Are you going to insist that something doesn't exist just because you
are not aware of it? It sure sounds that way.
--
Cheers,
vc
Flying Tortoise
> On Nov 7, 11:36 am, Flying Tortoise <purple....@googlemail.com> wrote:
>
>
> Perhaps you are thinking of a very narrow and parochial
> > > > restriction that would disallow this usage.
>
> > > Funny, I've never seen any such usage.
>
> > Funny indeed since I just provided over half a dozen citations from
> > hundreds found on American websites written by Americans for
> > Americans.
>
> What I saw was one citation from a New Mexico "Centre" that may have
> been written by a Hispanophone.
Yes, because you carefully avoided reading my follow-up post. That old
troll's tactic won't save you this time, I'm afraid.
>
> > >A "cook's aid" would be, say, a
> > > range. (In New York we call that a stove.
>
> > And yet strangely I didn't find any instance of this usage. Go figure!
>
> Of _what_ usage? The thing is a stove, pure and simple.
>
> Or, you didn't find "cook's aid" anywhere? It was invented by Mark I.
> for his clue, and since it's an ordinary noun phrase of English (and
> not an idiom), its meaning is derivable from the meanings of its
> parts, and its appearance was a trivial example of "linguistic
> creativity" -- every day, you utter many things that have never been
> uttered before.
Please, if you must inhabit your fantasy world, do not bring it with
you when you come here. There is no question of anyone here inventing
the term "cook's aid". I found hundreds of references (JFGI!!!!) to
'cook's aid' both as an informal description of someone assisting with
cookery and as a formal job title in most of the fifty states
including the likes of Utah and Georgia where even you can't be
seriously proposing that it's merely a Hispanophone affectation.
Peter T. Daniels
In most dictionaries, the order of entries within a definition
reflects the historical order of attestation. Applying the e-less form
to a person could well be an archaism.
Vari L. Cinicke
Dictionaries do mark archaic uses, don't they? Perhaps this
well-established use of aid to mean an assistant will become archaic in
a century or two.
I suspect that you will carry on with vague "could be" and "would be"
pronouncements for the foreseeable future.
Since you are not interested in current dictionary definitions or usage,
I see no point in continuing this sub-thread.
--
Cheers,
vc
Steve Ball
> On Nov 7, 2:55 pm, "Vari L. Cinicke" <cini...@netscape.net> wrote:
>> Peter T. Daniels wrote:
>>> On Nov 6, 7:05 pm, "Vari L. Cinicke" <cini...@netscape.net> wrote:
>>>> Peter T. Daniels wrote:
>>>>> On Nov 6, 12:02 pm, "Vari L. Cinicke" <cini...@netscape.net> wrote:
>>>>>> Peter T. Daniels wrote:
>>>>>>> On Nov 5, 11:24 pm, "Vari L. Cinicke" <cini...@netscape.net> wrote:
>>>>>>>> Peter T. Daniels wrote:
>>>>>>>>> On Nov 2, 10:35 am, Paddy Grove <paddy_gr...@hotNOSPAMPLEASEmail.com>
>>>>>>>>> wrote:
When you're in a hole, stop digging.
Steve = ; ^ )