Question on Potasium Permangante
Keith & Wendy Slonecker
2 died in the fall and the others have all been this
spring. Red mouth sores, open sores on body,
lethargic, and basically rotting away.
I have a 3000 gallon above-ground pond with an
undergravel filter system and also a mechanical
filter/skimmer system. Water quality always looked
perfect on the tests. After reading koivet I figure I
had a bacterial infection. I would notice the fish had
a lesion one day and the next day the sore would be
four times as big.
At this point I have 1 large koi left who is in a quarantine
tank on my deck. I have been treating him for almost 2
weeks now (on the advice of a local fish/pond man) with
tetracycline and Furacin (sp?) in the water. Now just using
the tetracycline. I do water and med changes every other day
and also salt dip him once a day in a 3% solution for about 1 minute.
He is eating, barely, but only cooked shrimp, wont touch the
dry pellet food. I have ordered Romet B but it's not here yet.
I dont think he is getting better, just kinda hanging in there.
The rest of the fish in the pond are fine and active and eating and show no
signs of disease. The water quality in the pond is still good, just stained
with tannin from nearby aspen trees, but clear and within normal parameters.
With all that said, my question is this: When I ordered the Romet from
JoAnn, she said that she thought I had a bacterial problem in the pond and
that no matter how healthy everyone looked now, that if it was there last
fall and this spring....it's still in there. She said to use Potasium
Permangante in the pond for 2 days and then follow with peroxide. She gave
me the amounts over the phone. I went and bought the PP but the folks at
the store said it would kill my fish. I also was then told by the local
pond guy I had been working with that if I used that PP it would kill my
filter and all the bacteria in the pond. That scared me off.
What should I do? I trust that JoAnn must know what she's talking about,
and she did give me the dosage and told me not to mess it up. But is it a
problem if it kills all the other bacteria in the pond? She said I could
leave the fish in and the plants and it sounds like a quick fix to a major
problem. I am afraid of losing more fish if I still have a "sick" pond.
I've read about the PP but cant seem to understand the impact and importance
of it killing the good bacteria.
Sorry to post so long, but I dont know how else to do it, and you all seem
to have such good advice and make it simple to understand. Any help would
be appreciated. Im thinking of just putting the sick big fish back in the
pond. Seems like 2 weeks in antibiotic water is not doing him much good
except delaying his demise.
thanks to all who have so generously shared your ideas with me in the past.
wendy in Oregon
RichToyBox
permangante takes care of the bugs that salt doesn't. The bugs attack the
fish and allow aeromonis bacteria to get to the fish that causes the sores
to increase and rot the fish away. Potasium permanganate will set the
filter back, and may kill it. I take the filter offline during treatments
and have the pump discharge go through a pipe that is elevated into the pond
to increase the oxygenation. Without increased aeration, the fish will
suffucate. Once the treatment is over and the hydrogen peroxide is poured
into the water, the water will shine. Be very certain of the dose.
Overdoses have killed fish. The dose that I use is 1 teaspoon per six
hundred gallons. I treat once per day until the water will stay purple or
pink for a minimum of 8 hours. If there is a significant amount of debris
in the pond, the life of the PP will be short, maybe 30 minutes. It could
take up to five treatments.
The sick fish has suffered long enough. Put him back in the pond. The fish
need a partner in isolation, or they will just sit around and mope.
I personaly am a strong believer in Lymnozime. It is a bacterial treatment
for the pond that stops aeromonis. I have been using it for two years and
have not had the problems with sores that I had before beginning use of it.
--
RichToyBox
http://www.geocities.com/richtoybox/pondintro.html
"Keith & Wendy Slonecker" <slon...@smt-net.com> wrote in message
news:uhrtnim...@corp.supernews.com...
> Red mouth sores, open sores on body,
> lethargic, and basically rotting away.
>
> She said to use Potasium Permangante in the pond for 2 days and then
> follow with peroxide. I also was then told by the local pond guy I had
> been working with that if I used that PP it would kill my
> filter and all the bacteria in the pond.
>
>Im thinking of just putting the sick big fish back in the pond.
>
> wendy in Oregon
>
>
Elizabeth Naime
yet but the more I learn about ponding, the more it seems that it will
be called for someday, so I'm trying to learn about it now.
When the water loses the PP color and you add the peroxide, is it safe
to run the bilfilter again right away? Has the antibacterial action of
the PP stopped completely at that point?
Thanks!
-----------------------------------------
ERROR 418: I'm a Teapot.
pickersangel
you're dealing with is, in fact, a bacterial problem. The causative
bug would be throughout your system, mixed in with the "good"
bacteria. Given the severity of the problem, your best bet is to do
the PP/peroxide treatment as recommended. Just plan on reseeding your
filter with one of the "bacteria booster" products, once the treatment
is completed.
Bob A
On the left side click on "Koi Fish" and then you will see the place to
click for Potassium Permanganate. Good luck.
Bob
"Keith & Wendy Slonecker" <slon...@smt-net.com> wrote in message
news:uhrtnim...@corp.supernews.com...
RichToyBox
it is spent. Look at the following pages from Doc Johnson's web site for
more information. I couldn't find the page where he miscalculated his pond
volume and misdosed by a factor of ten. Killed all his fish. It is
important to keep dosing until the color stays pink or purple for 8 hours
minimum.
http://www.koivet.com/potassium2.html
http://www.koivet.com/medications.html#anchor168402
http://www.koivet.com/potassium.html
--
RichToyBox
http://www.geocities.com/richtoybox/pondintro.html
"Elizabeth Naime" <ena...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:ntashugq2akd9tl1v...@4ax.com...
Gregory Young
Forgive my being blunt, but my time is limited this weekend..
You have basically shotgunned (as we call it in medicine) your ill Koi, with
tetracycline, Furacin, salt baths, and now are planning on Romet B.
You are doing this without a definite diagnosis.
Do you have access to a local vet that may know fish? If not do you have
access to a Koi/Water garden group that may have some experienced fish
handlers that can advise you, before going any further? Being told by people
that you are treating a bacterial infection, without an exam of the fish,
scrapings, gill biopsies, etc, is not an accurate way to go.
Telephone advice, even from a knowledgeable person, is just that, telephone
advice.
If all your other fish in the pond are fine, and water quality (temp, pH,
ammonia, nitrite, dissolved O2, and kH) parameters are fine, my advice to
you is to leave your pond alone!!!!!!!!!!!
Aeromonas and Pseudmonas species are normally found in bodies of fresh
water. They become pathogenic only when fish defenses are down, most often
due to water quality issues.
To use PP to sterilize a pond is:
1) asking for trouble unless you accurately know your total gallonage. I
have done too many gill biopsies that demonstrated burned gills due to PP
use, (due to small errors in calculations of total gallonage/dose).
2) a false premise, as it kills off the bacteria only temporarily. Pseud.
and Aer. can be found again within weeks, coming in apparently from natural
sources which we can't control in an outside environment.
PP used without proper precautions (respiratory, eye and skin) can be
dangerous. It must never be mixed outside, where there is a chance of a
breeze.
If using PP, you need to follow a multiple dosing regime. You don't use it
for 2 days (48 hours), then neutralize.
You dose it 8 grams/1,000 gallons. If the color changes within 45 minutes,
add another 2 grams/1,000. If it changes again in that time frame, wait 48
hours, do a 25% water change, and retreat with the original dose.
Repeat dosing is temperature dependent. (7/9/12 days).
That is one standard regime for dosing. There are other regimes being used.
In any event, you should aim to maintain the purple/pink color for 12 hours.
No need for longer.
I'm not trying to scare you away from PP. Used correctly it is super. Used
incorrectly, it is deadly to your fish. It will also kill any inverts in
your pond (snails, etc) even used with fish appropriate doses, so remove
them before treatment.
Good luck,
Greg
gey...@acsu.buffalo.edu
gey...@adelphia.net
gyo...@KaleidaHealth.org
"Keith & Wendy Slonecker" <slon...@smt-net.com> wrote in message
news:uhrtnim...@corp.supernews.com...
dr-...@wi.rr.xx.com
established filters to even burp. And I am talking the inside tanks, not ponds with
all the plants and algae. HOWEVER, since you got that undergravel filter, you need
to turn your filter OFF cause all those organics will react with the PP and render it
USELESS. Turn the filter off for 4 hours, then turn it back on. PP needs to be in
the water for at least 4 hours. Keep the aeration going, of course. INgrid
dr-...@wi.rr.xx.com
PP has a bad reputation. Put 1 lb of PP into 1 gallon of water and then use the wet
and diluted stuff adding it slowly to the water stream or dilute the dose further
into a 5 gallon. NEVER, NEVER, NEVER put dry PP into a pond.
Furthermore, do NOT exceed the proper dosage so the water is PURPLE. That is much
too concentrated, it should be pink, not purple. Ingrid
dr-...@wi.rr.xx.com
why the filter is turned off, altho I DONT because my tanks are not full of organics
and my filters are clean. Ingrid
dr-...@wi.rr.xx.com
biofilter COLONIES. In an established tank or pond the biobugs are in sheets of
strongly adhered colonies. It is just like algae on the surface of my tanks. PP
kills the surface of the algae, but doesnt touch the colonies underneath. So when I
treat a tank with PP the algae goes brownish for a couple days and then it comes back
greener than ever. PP kills both columnaris and gyro type flukes as well as most
other parasites. It is much more effective to treat with PP after the fish have had
a salt dip to strip off the slime coat which lays the cooties bare to treatment. but
most people (including me) have a hard time catching all the fish, so I just use salt
to increase the slime turnover and the PP to knock the cootie levels down. If the
fish are fundamentally healthy (good water, good food, good aeration), they will take
care of the rest by a healthy immune system. Ingrid
dr-...@wi.rr.xx.com
http://puregold.aquaria.net/disease/treatment/trtmnt.htm#POTASSIUM
furthermore, PP is excellent to use in a pond while it is being mucked out (with
aeration of course) cause it will instantly inactivate toxic gases that are stirred
up from the bottom, thus sparing the fish dive down into the muck. Ingrid
Bob A
to mix it with a volume of water, it doesn't say to add it dry.
Bob
Gregory Young
<dr-...@wi.rr.xx.com> wrote in message
news:3d24457d...@news-server.wi.rr.com...
> Now putting DRY PP into the pond is how people kill their fish. That is
THE reason
> PP has a bad reputation. Put 1 lb of PP into 1 gallon of water and then
use the wet
> and diluted stuff adding it slowly to the water stream or dilute the dose
further
> into a 5 gallon. NEVER, NEVER, NEVER put dry PP into a pond.
Ingrid:
One pound????? Is that what you meant to say, or was it a typo?
That amount will provide a one time Rx for 56,000 or a 4 time Rx for 14,000
gallons of pond water, etc... Given the price (for hazmat shipping of PP we
now have to pay), it would seem a lower amount could be utilized for single
pond appilcations...
I don't think, unless I missed something in the thread, that "RichToyBox"
meant it should be put into the pond dry, but agree that is worth
repeating....
> Furthermore, do NOT exceed the proper dosage so the water is PURPLE. That
is much
> too concentrated, it should be pink, not purple. Ingrid
At a 4ppm application rate, which I use in well stocked ponds, with a fair
amount of DOCs, it certainly looks purple to me.
Later,
Greg
dr-...@wi.rr.xx.com
from fishy pharmacy). so I just buy a couple pounds. it doesnt go bad. and I
usually put 4 oz into a quart of water but for those dont have scales they can just
dump the whole pound into a gallon of distilled water and not worry about measuring.
the container needs to be wrapped in foil to block light. But I have used up 2 lbs
in about 4-5 years. some I have given away to people needed it. I also had a 1600
gallon pond and a 3200 gallon pond and I was using the PP as water treatment to get
rid of iron in water for water changes. I also use this in a garbage can to
sterilize stuff.
It can be used at 2 ppm which is what I use, altho 4 ppm isnt going to hurt the fish
if there are lots of organics. my water even inside in the tanks is never purple ...
I must add it very slowly or have good circulation then. It is pink. Ingrid
"Gregory Young" <gey...@adelphia.net> wrote:
>One pound????? Is that what you meant to say, or was it a typo?
>That amount will provide a one time Rx for 56,000 or a 4 time Rx for 14,000
>gallons of pond water, etc... Given the price (for hazmat shipping of PP we
>now have to pay), it would seem a lower amount could be utilized for single
>pond appilcations...
Gregory Young
medical establishment, or so I thought.. Big mistake..
Although 5# cost me only $26.95 (very good price), the hazmat shipping ran
$45, for a total of $71.95!
Not AES's fault, it was mine for not checking into hazmat charges first. (I
figured about $20 hazmat shipping charges max..)
Greg
gey...@acsu.buffalo.edu
gey...@adelphia.net
gyo...@KaleidaHealth.org
<dr-...@wi.rr.xx.com> wrote in message
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Bubba
at your local water treatment supply for about $18.00. Any place that
treats well water will have it. It is generally used to regenerate a green
sand filter to remove iron from the water. We can buy it in our local
Publix Supermarket for about $3 to $4 per pound. It is generally available
in 3 lb or 5 lb containers. The other place to check will be in the water
treatment section of your local Home Depot. If they don't have it, they can
get it for you.
"Gregory Young" <gey...@adelphia.net> wrote in message
news:O0LU8.10448$071.2...@news1.news.adelphia.net...
Gregory Young
I never even considered that!!
Greg
--
gey...@acsu.buffalo.edu
gey...@adelphia.net
gyo...@KaleidaHealth.org
"Bubba" <Bu...@TrailerTrash.com> wrote in message
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