HELP !!! Koi Water Temp 94F !!
Fred Ronson
Greetins all...
Got a minor problem here in Miami. This is my first summer with my pond
and for my Koi. One of my Taisho Sanke' has turned white, ie list the orange
and black. I assume it is related to the water temp.. 94F during the day. Does
anybody have any idea what effect this will have or should I begin contruction
on a dry ice chiller to bring down the water temp !!!!!!!!!!
Any help would be GREATLY APPRECTIATED !!!!!!!!
Direct replies to fkr...@netrunner.net PLEASE !!!
Thanx !!!
Fred Kraus
donna
In article <4o84p0$l...@amberjack.netrunner.net>,
Fred,
Yes, the hotter temperatures can cause a loss in color in Koi, especially the
black. I am from Tucson (air temps over 100 degrees F in summer, water temps
easily reach 90 plus). We hold koi shows and exhibitions in late fall or early
spring for this reason. I have seen a karasu (black) koi go from coal black to
a light gray in one day when put into warm water. Most of my koi fade out
considerably in the summer.
Now, saying that, there is another consideration - the bloodlines of the fish.
If the bloodlines are good quality, then the color will most probably return
at the onset of cooler water. However, the cost of these good-quality
bloodlines is astronomical. If you paid less than $100 dollars for your koi,
then it most likely is not in this "high quality" group - most that I have
seen cost several hundred dollars minimum for even a 6" koi. Given that, and
especially since the red/orange itself has disappeared, it is probably that
you no longer have a Taisho Sanke. If the black comes back, maybe you'll end
up with a Shiro Bekko. I personally have never seen red come back when it
faded (although there was an interesting article in the recent KOI USA
magazine where it done come in on one specimen).
Well, I wish you luck, and hope that you end up with a koi you like, no matter
whether the color comes back or not.
donna
Tucson Koi Society
http:/www.azstarnet.com/~scaruso/tks/tks.htm
Roger Baird
>Fred,
>
>Yes, the hotter temperatures can cause a loss in color in Koi, especially the
>black. I am from Tucson (air temps over 100 degrees F in summer, water temps
>easily reach 90 plus). We hold koi shows and exhibitions in late fall or early
>spring for this reason. I have seen a karasu (black) koi go from coal black to
>a light gray in one day when put into warm water. Most of my koi fade out
>considerably in the summer.
>
>Now, saying that, there is another consideration - the bloodlines of the fish.
>If the bloodlines are good quality, then the color will most probably return
>at the onset of cooler water. However, the cost of these good-quality
>bloodlines is astronomical. If you paid less than $100 dollars for your koi,
>then it most likely is not in this "high quality" group - most that I have
Donna, I beg to differ. The notion of "bloodlines" of koi is in fact not only
outrageous, but more than likely false. You are forgetting ALL koi produced
today are from japanese stock. A few years ago korean breeders bought select
breeding stock from japan to start their operation. Israeli breeders buy eggs
and milt from show champions. It is untrue you cannot buy a good koi for
under 100 dollars. You might not get grand champion, but who's to say?
I have a darling little korean sanke I paid less that 25 dollars for in the 6
inch size. His pattern hasn't matured, but his hi is of high quality and his
sumi is crisp. I can't wait to see what he looks like in a year or two.
My latest additions to my pond were a gin rin ochiba shigure and a beautiful
ki showa. Both are isreali fish and cost me 19.00 and 189.00 respectifully.
The ochiba shigure is now about 7" long and the ki showa is about 10".
>seen cost several hundred dollars minimum for even a 6" koi. Given that, and
>especially since the red/orange itself has disappeared, it is probably that
>you no longer have a Taisho Sanke. If the black comes back, maybe you'll end
>up with a Shiro Bekko. I personally have never seen red come back when it
>faded (although there was an interesting article in the recent KOI USA
>magazine where it done come in on one specimen).
Temperature induced fading and genetic fading are two different things. Let
me remind you that no koi holds its pattern until it is atleast 12 to 24". If
I remember correctly, many people belive only japanese koi to hold their
color, but yet I distinctly remember Joel Burkhard of PAN INTERCORP writing in
KOI USA several times how tategoi can change their color and turn into
completely different fish... These were japanese fish mind you...
>Well, I wish you luck, and hope that you end up with a koi you like, no matter
>whether the color comes back or not.
The advice I would have offered is for him to dig his pond deeper and make
sure it is turned over frequently to keep dissolved oxygen high... I'm not
sure he needed a questionable lecture on koi "bloodlines."
Brian
Roger Baird
Just remember, "Ninety percent of this game is half mental".
Home: rcb...@fred.net Office: rba...@lifetech.com
Warren
> In article <4ob4ig$i...@news.azstarnet.com>, sca...@azstarnet.com
(donna) wrote:
>
> >Fred,
> >
> >Yes, the hotter temperatures can cause a loss in color in Koi,
especially the
> >black. I am from Tucson (air temps over 100 degrees F in summer, water temps
> >easily reach 90 plus). (SNIPPED) If you paid less than $100 dollars for
your koi,
> >then it most likely is not in this "high quality" group
> Donna, I beg to differ. The notion of "bloodlines" of koi is in fact
not only
> outrageous, but more than likely false. You are forgetting ALL koi produced
> today are from japanese stock. (SNIP)
> Temperature induced fading and genetic fading are two different things.
>
> The advice I would have offered is for him to dig his pond deeper and make
> sure it is turned over frequently to keep dissolved oxygen high... I'm not
> sure he needed a questionable lecture on koi "bloodlines."
> Brian
Has anyone thought of providing some shade with a tree? My Sacramento pond
doesn't get above 75 degrees. 3.5 feet deep and good shade from trees and
water lilies.
-Warren
Chuck Rush
Fred,
Your only choice may be to construct a shade cloth "pavillion" over your
pond. Shade cloth is not too expensive and there are outlets that will
sew it to your specifications. Add some support columns, a little
aircraft cable for support and you should be able to bring your temps
down. In the future, a deeper pond helps to keep temps down in hot
climates. Last year, we had a bunch of days over 100 degrees and my 3
foot deep pond never got over 80 degrees. The other thing that keeps my
temperatures down is water plants. I have 5 lilies in my big pond that
cover about 50% of the water surface. The heat is reflected off the
leaves, not the water. If the sun can't get in, it can't heat up the
water.
--
Chuck Rush
North Texas Water Garden Society
http://www.cirr.com/~ntwgs
e-mail: cr...@dallas.net
S. Robinson & M. Hogue
Fred Ronson wrote:
>
> Greetins all...
>
> Got a minor problem here in Miami. This is my first summer with my pond
> and for my Koi. One of my Taisho Sanke' has turned white, ie list the orange
> and black. I assume it is related to the water temp.. 94F during the day. Does
> anybody have any idea what effect this will have or should I begin contruction
> on a dry ice chiller to bring down the water temp !!!!!!!!!!
>
> Any help would be GREATLY APPRECTIATED !!!!!!!!
>
> Direct replies to fkr...@netrunner.net PLEASE !!!
>
> Thanx !!!
>
> Fred Kraus
Fred-
My koi started dying at 92 degrees. You're lucky to have a white fish
if its still flipping its fins at you.
We have not found a satisfactory method for reducing water temp.
WE have tried ice, 25% water changes daily, and shade. The only one that
is at all effective is shade (we erected a "sail" over the pond to shade
it). Ice melted and was without effect within 15 minutes (100 lbs of ice
in a 1600 gal. pond).
I thought about, but never put together the pieces, getting a
used water fountain cooler (like the ones that you see in office
buildings) to run continually - but suspect the energy cost would be
excessive.
If you have any good ideas, I'm interested too.
The heat makes everything worse, the water holds less oxygen, the
toxicity of ammonia is worse, and the Ph tends to climb (in my pond
anyway). And the fish do lose color. My fish got their color back in the
winter (Jan. and Feb.), but not necessarily in the same patterns.
brett rowley
In <4oddfq$1...@sleddog.fred.net> rcb...@fred.net (Roger Baird) writes:
>
>In article <4ob4ig$i...@news.azstarnet.com>, sca...@azstarnet.com (donna)
wrote:
>
>>Fred,
>>
>>Yes, the hotter temperatures can cause a loss in color in Koi, especially the
>>black. I am from Tucson (air temps over 100 degrees F in summer, water temps
>>easily reach 90 plus). We hold koi shows and exhibitions in late fall or early
>>spring for this reason. I have seen a karasu (black) koi go from coal black to
>>a light gray in one day when put into warm water. Most of my koi fade out
>>considerably in the summer.
>>
>>Now, saying that, there is another consideration - the bloodlines of the fish.
>>If the bloodlines are good quality, then the color will most probably return
>>at the onset of cooler water. However, the cost of these good-quality
>>bloodlines is astronomical. If you paid less than $100 dollars for your koi,
>>then it most likely is not in this "high quality" group - most that I have
>
>Donna, I beg to differ. The notion of "bloodlines" of koi is in fact not only
>outrageous, but more than likely false. You are forgetting ALL koi produced
>today are from japanese stock. A few years ago korean breeders bought select
>breeding stock from japan to start their operation. Israeli breeders buy eggs
>and milt from show champions. It is untrue you cannot buy a good koi for
>under 100 dollars. You might not get grand champion, but who's to say?
>I have a darling little korean sanke I paid less that 25 dollars for in the 6
>inch size. His pattern hasn't matured, but his hi is of high quality and his
>sumi is crisp. I can't wait to see what he looks like in a year or two.
>My latest additions to my pond were a gin rin ochiba shigure and a beautiful
>ki showa. Both are isreali fish and cost me 19.00 and 189.00 respectifully.
>The ochiba shigure is now about 7" long and the ki showa is about 10".
>
>>seen cost several hundred dollars minimum for even a 6" koi. Given that, and
>>especially since the red/orange itself has disappeared, it is probably that
>>you no longer have a Taisho Sanke. If the black comes back, maybe you'll end
>>up with a Shiro Bekko. I personally have never seen red come back when it
>>faded (although there was an interesting article in the recent KOI USA
>>magazine where it done come in on one specimen).
>
>Temperature induced fading and genetic fading are two different things. Let
>me remind you that no koi holds its pattern until it is atleast 12 to 24". If
>I remember correctly, many people belive only japanese koi to hold their
>color, but yet I distinctly remember Joel Burkhard of PAN INTERCORP writing in
>KOI USA several times how tategoi can change their color and turn into
>completely different fish... These were japanese fish mind you...
>
>>Well, I wish you luck, and hope that you end up with a koi you like, no matter
>>whether the color comes back or not.
>
>The advice I would have offered is for him to dig his pond deeper and make
>sure it is turned over frequently to keep dissolved oxygen high... I'm not
>sure he needed a questionable lecture on koi "bloodlines."
>Brian
>
>Roger Baird
>Just remember, "Ninety percent of this game is half mental".
>
>Home: rcb...@fred.net Office: rba...@lifetech.com
>
I had tried to stay out of this thread, but could not help but add my
$0.02. Heat can affect the koi in some respects. So can sunlight.
Usually excessively hot water will prevent koi from growing well,
however, I saw koi grow very well at a constant 91 degrees in a raceway
supplied with constant temperature well water. Our ponds get surface
temperatures of over 100 in the daytime, but the koi remain in 5'-7' of
water which is a cool 88 or so. They do fine. We feed them early in
the morning prior to the ponds heating up and stratifying. Koi need
sunlight, but in a very shallow pond that is constantly exposed to sun,
they may not do so well with it. It is best if they have a deep water
refuge (more than 5' deep) and a shady spot to hang out in.
I think the majority of the points made by Roger are on target except
one. The notion of bloodlines is a valid one in koi, just as it is in
racehorses, dogs, and chickens. Koi are the result of sexual
reproduction like any domesticated animal and careful breeding is
important to achieve stability and other desirable characteristics
without having undesirable ones. Obtaining a blooded koi is very
expensive, in most cases. Having said that, I want to also point out
that Roger is correct in saying that a good koi does not have to be of
known breeding, or cost a lot. If the person is happy with the fish
they bought, no matter the price, bloodline, etc., then that is a good
koi.
Another notion that I think needs to be dispelled here is the one that
if the fish be Japanese, and from a good bloodline, then it is a good
one no matter what other factors may be involved. A mating of koi may
produce nearly a million eggs, but of those that are to become fish,
only a precious few will be very good ones. This is the case with any
koi, no matter the bloodlines involved. What do you reckon happens to
the thousands and thousands of poor quality koi? Most are sent to be
rendered back into fish food, some are sold at auction houses for cheap
in batch lots and shipped to other countries (like the US) to be sold
as "valuable imports". These are the fish you will typically see in
shops with labels like "Imported Japanese Koi" and prices from
$50-$150. To get a real koi, you will need to pay much more, and most
likely will need to frequent a shop which specializes in koi.
Sometimes, although very infrequently, a good koi gets missed along the
line and gets into one of these batches. This doesn't happen much, and
most that get into a batch get "cherry picked" by one of the myriad of
middlemen along the way.
Another notion that needs to be dispelled is the one that if it didn't
come from Japan and a known bloodline, then it cannot be any good.
Lots of good koi are produced outside Japan, albeit from Japanese
stock. The rest of the equation holds, though. No producer is going
to sell a good koi, such a rare and difficult thing to get, for cheap.
Maybe less than for a similar koi from Japan, but not cheap. What will
happen with greater frequency is that a good one ends up in the batch
of cheapos. This is due to the relative inexperience of non-Japanese
producers in recognizing the good ones at an early life stage.
One point, the very best koi are produced in Japan, and usually stay
there.
One story to illustrate some of this. How do I know all this? I'm a
fish culturist by profession, a serious koi breeder by choice, these
last five or so years, and educated in koi by famous Japanese master
breeders. We (my partner and I) sold a lot of koi, many (most) for
cheap. One day a dealer/customer called and told us to look in the Koi
USA magazine at some pictures of koi from a show. That two fish having
won prizes in the show were from some fish we had sent him and he had
sold to a hobbiest. One was a shiro bekko, the other was a ginrin
sanke. Both had left our farm for around $10 and retailed for less
than $50. Did we make a mistake and miss some good ones during
culling? Probably. Was the show lacking in competitive fish?
Perhaps. Were these koi blooded? The shiro bekko was from Jinbe
bloodline female sanke and Dainichi bloodline male sanke, so in its
case, yes. The ginrin sanke was from an unknown bloodline female and
male, so in its case, no.
So, from hot water to bloodlines in koi, another long dissertation that
I hope will help to dispel notions and confusion about the mysterious
koi. The main point being that koi are supposed to be fun, and if you
get too serious, then it isn't fun anymore.
Brett Rowley
Fisheries Biologist
Great Lakes Sportfishing Resort and Koi Breeding Farm
West Columbia, Texas
http://home.cdsnet.net/~dearlix/index.html
Maarten van Helden
In article <4o84p0$l...@amberjack.netrunner.net>, fkr...@netrunner.net says...
>
>Greetins all...
>
> Got a minor problem here in Miami. This is my first summer with my pond
>and for my Koi. One of my Taisho Sanke' has turned white, ie list the orange
>and black. I assume it is related to the water temp.. 94F during the day.
Does
>anybody have any idea what effect this will have or should I begin
contruction
>on a dry ice chiller to bring down the water temp !!!!!!!!!!
>
> Any help would be GREATLY APPRECTIATED !!!!!!!!
>
> Direct replies to fkr...@netrunner.net PLEASE !!!
>
>
> Thanx !!!
>
> Fred Kraus
If your water gets this hot you should either shade your pond, or cool the
water artificially, even though this will be expensive. Too much heating
occurs in shallow and small ponds, is yours deep enough ?? Is the temp. you
mention near the surface or also deep in the water ??? Be aware that the warm
water is lighter than cold water so the heating of the surface can cause this
to get quite a lot warmer then the deeper sections.
Maarten.
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
||\\ //|| Dr. Maarten van Helden
|| \\// || Dept. of Entomology
|| \/ || Wageningen Agricultural University
|||||||||| Binnenhaven 7, 6709 PD
|| || Wageningen, the Netherlands
|| || Tel +31-317-485118 Fax +31-317-484821
|| || Email: <maarten....@medew.ento.wau.nl>
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
bux...@mixcom.com
fkr...@netrunner.net (Fred Ronson) wrote:
>water temp.. 94F during the day. Does
>anybody have any idea what effect this will have or should I begin contruction
>on a dry ice chiller to bring down the water temp !!!!!!!!!!
.... you dont say how deep or large the pond is, but aquarium people have
had luck with a fan blowing across the surface of the water... also, if the
pond is deep enough, put the pump towards the top to suck warm water and
aerate that water.. dont disturb the lower levels of the water or bubble
hot air thru it... you do have to get shade on the pond.. lilies and even
algae shade, but at night they will use up the oxygen (no more than 60% of
the pond should be covered, as this also reduces oxygenation during the
day), so is better to maybe float something like white styrofoam on the
surface during the heat of the day until you get either shade trees or a
screen put up... Ingrid