Re: sheet film developing is hard
Largformat
in the Free Articles section
steve simmons
Camera
before. It was very difficult. But the JOBO one is really good and easy to
use. I bought mine via eBay.
"PGG" <pa_paSPAAMgordygrapes@NO_SP_A_Myahoo.com> ???
news:pan.2004.09.29.04.39.14.715000@NO_SP_A_Myahoo.com ???...
> I've gone through my first 25-sheet pack of film. I've figured out how to
> operate my view camera just fine. I can take a decent picture-- exposing
> and focusing properly. But I had no idea how difficult developing it
> is...I thought that would be the easy part
>
> first 5 sheets I fumbled around with a color processing tube that didn't
> work out due to the film not staying flat against the tube
>
> next 3-5 sheets I tried using my own PVC tubes. They leaked all over the
> place and I got uneven development
>
> next 10 sheets I tray developed. At least these were evenly developed but
> all scratched up. Plus I fumbled around in the dark spilling crap all
> over the floor.
>
> My most recent attempts have been with 2 BZTS tubes bought on eBay. The
> best so far. But I realized that 3 of my favorite shots are messed up
> because, for about 10-20 seconds, the tubes were not moving. Yep...uneven
> development even though total time was 8 minutes.
>
> Sigh.... Frustrated but I haven't quite given up yet.
LR Kalajainen
> I've gone through my first 25-sheet pack of film. I've figured out how to
> operate my view camera just fine. I can take a decent picture-- exposing
> and focusing properly. But I had no idea how difficult developing it
> is...I thought that would be the easy part
>
> first 5 sheets I fumbled around with a color processing tube that didn't
> work out due to the film not staying flat against the tube
>
> next 3-5 sheets I tried using my own PVC tubes. They leaked all over the
> place and I got uneven development
>
> next 10 sheets I tray developed. At least these were evenly developed but
> all scratched up. Plus I fumbled around in the dark spilling crap all
> over the floor.
>
> My most recent attempts have been with 2 BZTS tubes bought on eBay. The
> best so far. But I realized that 3 of my favorite shots are messed up
> because, for about 10-20 seconds, the tubes were not moving. Yep...uneven
> development even though total time was 8 minutes.
>
> Sigh.... Frustrated but I haven't quite given up yet.
Tray developing is IMHO the easiest and best way to develop sheet film.
You may have occasional failures--I've scratched the film on very rare
occasions, but generally, it's dead easy. Here's my method; I'm sure
there are others:
I have three 5X7 trays with water in them--labeled respectively N, N+1,
N+2. Next to them, I have four 8X10 trays, Developer, Water stop,
Fix,Water rinse.
When all these are set up in a row in my sink, I arrange my holders with
all N's in one stack, all N+1's in another, and any N+2's in another.
(I rarely have any N+2's.) Then, IN THE DARK, I unload all the holders
and place the films in their respective water baths. This is one spot
to exercise care--put each film in the water bath and fully submerge it
for a few seconds before putting the next one in on top of it. I've
worked out a method of using only the tip of my little finger to push
the film down into the water, since then my other fingers remain dry to
unload the rest of the film. This is an important step because wetting
each film separately like this prevents them from sticking together.
Then, setting my Gralab for the longest time I need (N+2 or N+1 if I
have any designated for those times), I pick up the whole stack of,
e.g., N+2 films, from the water bath and place them in the developer,
emulsion side down. I then begin shuffling them top to bottom at a slow
and steady rate. As the timer clicks down to N+1 time, I bring those
sheets in the developer, add them to the N+2's and keep shuffling.
Likewise, when the timer gets to the N time, I bring the N's in.
(CAVEAT: I have occasionally attempted to develop as many as 8 sheets
at once, but I don't recommend it. Six is probably the maximum you
should develop in one stack. So if you have 1 N+2 and 4 N+1's and 5
N's, then do the N+'s in one run and the N's in another.)
While shuffling, take care not to let the corners of the film you're
shuffling gouge the films underneath.
When end of development time comes, move the whole stack to the water
bath and shuffle through once or twice. Then to the fixer, where the
shuffling continues. At some point about two minutes into the fixer
shuffle, though Fred Picker would not have approved, you can turn on the
lights and see if your film is fully cleared. If not, keep shuffling
until it is and go a little longer to be sure of complete fixing. Then,
in the light, you can move it to the water rinse for another shuffle or two.
Dump the water off and replace with your Perma-wash or whatever other
hypo-clearing agent you're using (which you've mixed in a beaker ahead
of time so you can just pour it into the tray.) Shuffle the films for
the recommended time. Then dump, and do whatever you do for washing.
When wash is complete, add a drop or two of Photo-Flo to your final wash
water, and then hang each of the sheets up with a clothes pin by a
corner on a line over your sink to dry.
This method has worked successfully for many years for me, and saved me
a lot of money on tanks, etc.
Hope you like it.
Larry
Bob G
>is.
The Nikor adjustable stainless steel daylight developing tank is the ticket.
Holds 12 sheets of 4x5 film and about 40 ounces of chemicals.
You load your film in the dark onto a special cage, stick it in the tank, cap
it and turn on the lights!
Proceed to develop as you would 35mm film in a SS tank, inverting the tank for
agitation, etcetera.
Hard to get but it does come up on eBay every now and then. Will set you back
over $100 but you'll never regret it.
Bob G
Nick Zentena
> I've gone through my first 25-sheet pack of film. I've figured out how to
> operate my view camera just fine. I can take a decent picture-- exposing
> and focusing properly. But I had no idea how difficult developing it
> is...I thought that would be the easy part
If you're willing to spend the money Jobo makes a couple of different
systems. You don't even need a processor.
Nick
Nicholas O. Lindan
> Sigh.... Frustrated but I haven't quite given up yet.
That's the way to do it: keep at it until you give up
completely. It's sort of the whole point of life.
--
Nicholas O. Lindan, Cleveland, Ohio
Consulting Engineer: Electronics; Informatics; Photonics.
Remove spaces etc. to reply: n o lindan at net com dot com
psst.. want to buy an f-stop timer? nolindan.com/da/fstop/
Collin Brendemuehl
I've got a Yankee tank for 4x5.
For the first few uses my results were problematic,
until I figured out that a circular motion would move
the chemicals appropriately and produce a good result.
And they're cheap.
My suspicion is that any good system can be mis-used, especially when
one is just starting. That might be what happened here.
Rather than switching systems, look @ the design and see how it's
best used. A few sheets of film is cheaper than a new system.
Collin
jjs
news:20040929074407...@mb-m03.aol.com...
>> But I had no idea how difficult developing it
>>is.
>
> The Nikor adjustable stainless steel daylight developing tank is the
> ticket.
> Holds 12 sheets of 4x5 film and about 40 ounces of chemicals.
> You load your film in the dark onto a special cage, stick it in the tank,
> cap
> it and turn on the lights!
You forgot the clip.
CamArtsMag
From: dplotu...@yahoo.com (Collin Brendemuehl)
Date: 9/29/2004 7:10 AM Mountain Daylight Time
Message-id: <8761a511.04092...@posting.google.com>
Collin
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
The advantage with tray processsing is that I can do 6-8 sheets simultaneously
for different dev. times. With a closed tank all sheets will get the same
developing time.
steve simmons
jjs
news:20040929103053...@mb-m07.aol.com...
> The advantage with tray processsing is that I can do 6-8 sheets
> simultaneously
> for different dev. times. With a closed tank all sheets will get the same
> developing time.
Large open top tanks have the same virtue. Clip a plastic clothespin on one
side of the tank to separate the batches. Move the N-, N, N+ on time and be
happy. (Presumes same developer, of course and the quanity of developer is,
admittedly, rather daunting.)
Uranium Committee
Sheet film hangers and tanks are the way to go.
Gregory Blank
sheet film. BTW your wrong.
In article <9c532379.04092...@posting.google.com>,
uraniumc...@yahoo.com (Uranium Committee) wrote:
--
LF Website @ http://members.verizon.net/~gregoryblank
"To announce that there must be no criticism of the President,
or that we are to stand by the President, right or wrong,
is not only unpatriotic and servile, but is morally treasonable
to the American public."--Theodore Roosevelt, May 7, 1918
Largformat
You make this sound so convincing and universal. Just be aware that a lot of
people do not agree.
steve simmons
Argon3
myself...always thought that it was interesting, though.
http://philbard.com/panel.html
argon
Gregory Blank
I used them to process step wedge strips
four & six to a panel. I also had someone
make me a stainless tray with a pivot rod on both sides
so I could rock the tray while it was suspended inside
another tray as a tempered water bath. This method
is very close to the recommended ISO methodology
for processing film for sensitometeric testing.
It produces the most controlled result of any method.
It also eliminates handling problems one typically gets
in the various other methods.
In article <20040929171805...@mb-m12.aol.com>,
arg...@aol.com (Argon3) wrote:
> http://philbard.com/panel.html
Tom Phillips
PGG wrote:
>
> I've gone through my first 25-sheet pack of film. I've figured out how to
> operate my view camera just fine. I can take a decent picture-- exposing
> and focusing properly. But I had no idea how difficult developing it
> is...I thought that would be the easy part
>
> first 5 sheets I fumbled around with a color processing tube that didn't
> work out due to the film not staying flat against the tube
>
> next 3-5 sheets I tried using my own PVC tubes. They leaked all over the
> place and I got uneven development
>
> next 10 sheets I tray developed. At least these were evenly developed but
> all scratched up. Plus I fumbled around in the dark spilling crap all
> over the floor.
>
> My most recent attempts have been with 2 BZTS tubes bought on eBay. The
> best so far. But I realized that 3 of my favorite shots are messed up
> because, for about 10-20 seconds, the tubes were not moving. Yep...uneven
> development even though total time was 8 minutes.
>
> Sigh.... Frustrated but I haven't quite given up yet.
tray developning is the simplest, fastest, and least
expensive method. You just need more practice. No one
learns to ride a bicycle without falling off and
scraping a knee. I prefer tray process of sheet film
to all other methods and been doing it for 25 years.
My second method of choice would be a Jobo.
A few of points to keep in mind: Don't develop too many
sheets at a time: 2 or 3 are eough to learn good technique
with. Cut your fingernails. ALWAYS pull the bottom sheet
out sideways during shuffling/agitation, never drag across
the film corners. I take the bottom sheet and give it a
little downward tug to separate it from the stack before
pulling it out and shuffling. Gently place the sheet on top
of the developer and then push it down with the balls of the
fingers, not the fingernails, onto the stack squishing the
developer out from underneath. You can also wear latex or
nitrile surgical type gloves to do this. I gently "corral"
the stack with both hands in the corner of the tray ((8x10
or 5x7 depending on the number of sheets) when developing,
ensuring individual sheets do not float around during
shuffling. With each minute (2 cycles) of agitation I rotate
the stack 180 degrees to ensure even development.
Adams in the Negative has a fairly decent description of a
tray processing.
David Starr
had no developing problems. I use a Combi-Plan tank. I load the
holder in the dark, drop it into the filled tank, put the top on and
turn on the lights. I agitate it like a reel-style tank - invert it.
When there's 30 seconds left on the timer, I turn out the light and
take the top off the tank. I have 2 Yankee tanks I use for stop,
fixing and washing. The wash tank is also the stop tank. It has a
hose in it with water running. One minute in the water, then into the
filled fixer tank. After the developer, I just leave the light out.
I agitate in the water bath and fixer by raising and lowering the film
holder in the tank. After the fix, I turn on the lights, put the
holder in the wash tank, and let it wash with occasional agitation.
I've gotten very nice looking negatives with no apparent streaking.
This weekend I hope to have the D5 ready to go and make some prints.
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
Professional Shop Rat: 14,451 days in a GM plant.
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
jjs
news:mvbml0hpjvd1fiqt8...@4ax.com...
> I'm also a large format beginner. So far I've shot 8 sheets, and have
> had no developing problems. I use a Combi-Plan tank.
At first I refused to believe a Combi-Plan tank could work, but it really
does work. One of the arguments I've heard against it is how long it takes
to fill or empty it. It is certainly not as quick as open tank development,
or hand-shuffling (bless 'em who do that), but what I want to know is how
many JOBO Auto Lift fanatics have ever timed their fill times against it.
I'll put a dollar against a dime that the times are so close it makes no
difference.
(Frank, where are ya, Buddy? :))
John Bartley
>Sigh.... Frustrated but I haven't quite given up yet.
>
>
Hi there,
I'm a real beginner also, having exposed and processed a total of 39
4"x5" B&W sheets in my life. I started with trays, and went thru' the
scratching, uneven development, stale chemicals, too short in depleted
fixer etc, etc....
Someone on this forum was kind enough to give me this advice : get a
system, stick with the system, change only one thing at a time in your
system and that way you can overcome each problem one at a time.
While I eventually came to a point where I had no trouble with trays, I
didn't like being stuck in the darkroom (bathroom) in the dark, and I
didn't want to spend (cheapskate) the money on a tank system, didn't
mind doing one negative at a time (only shoot a couple a week), so I
made a BTZ tube. Mine also leaked. The solution for the leak at the
threaded couplers is to roll an o-ring over the male end, so that when
you screw them together, the o-ring does the sealing.
Hope this helps a bit.
--
regards from ::
John Bartley
43 Norway Spruce Street
Stittsville, Ontario
Canada, K2S1P5
( If you slow down it takes longer
- does that apply to life also?)
Frank Pittel
: "David Starr" <dave...@sbcglobal.net> wrote in message
I'm here. :-) Just not a whole lot to add. I have to admit that I don't care for
the idea of standing in the dark with my hands soaking in developer so I don't tray
develop. I also didn't have any luck with hangers or the combi-plan tank. I also have
an issue with the amount of chemistry they use. I use my developer one shot and while
the Tmax developers are cheap they're not that cheap!!
My problem was solved when I got my Jobo processor. Now I pour in the chemistry and
walk away.
--
Keep working millions on welfare depend on you
-------------------
f...@deepthought.com
Uranium Committee
> Stated Michael Scarpetti the man who never processes
> sheet film. BTW your wrong.
>
By the way, YOU'RE wrong. I have probably processed more sheets of
film in my life than you have.
Gregory Blank
In article <9c532379.0409...@posting.google.com>,
uraniumc...@yahoo.com (Uranium Committee) wrote:
>
> By the way, YOU'RE wrong. I have probably processed more sheets of
> film in my life than you have.
--
Tom Phillips
Gregory Blank wrote:
>
> "To announce that there must be no criticism of the President,
> or that we are to stand by the President, right or wrong,
> is not only unpatriotic and servile, but is morally treasonable
> to the American public."--Theodore Roosevelt, May 7, 1918
off topic, but good quote. I'm going to steal it. My current favorite
email sig:
A lesson in patriotism for the Bush administration:
"Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little
temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety."
Benjamin Franklin
Bob G
And in Spain, 1003.
Bob G
Gregory Blank
In article <415B8C5A...@aol.com>,
Tom Phillips <nosp...@aol.com> wrote:
>
> off topic, but good quote. I'm going to steal it. My current favorite
> email sig:
>
> A lesson in patriotism for the Bush administration:
>
> "Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little
> temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety."
>
> Benjamin Franklin
--
LF Website @ http://members.verizon.net/~gregoryblank
"To announce that there must be no criticism of the President,
Collin Brendemuehl
> had no developing problems. I use a Combi-Plan tank. I load the
> holder in the dark, drop it into the filled tank, put the top on and
> turn on the lights. I agitate it like a reel-style tank - invert it.
> When there's 30 seconds left on the timer, I turn out the light and
> take the top off the tank. I have 2 Yankee tanks I use for stop,
> fixing and washing. The wash tank is also the stop tank. It has a
> hose in it with water running. One minute in the water, then into the
> filled fixer tank. After the developer, I just leave the light out.
> I agitate in the water bath and fixer by raising and lowering the film
> holder in the tank. After the fix, I turn on the lights, put the
> holder in the wash tank, and let it wash with occasional agitation.
> I've gotten very nice looking negatives with no apparent streaking.
> This weekend I hope to have the D5 ready to go and make some prints.
Unfortunately my Yankee does not have inversion facility so I settle
for lateral, orbital rotation. Sort of like how the moon goes around
the earth.
I also use a D5 with a Dichro II head. IIRC, f16, yellow on 40, red
on 10,
roughly 10 seconds (depending on paper) gives a nice print with a
Fujinon 135mm lens.
Collin
jjs
news:20040929171805...@mb-m12.aol.com...
> Here's one that I came across a while back and haven't had the time to try
> myself...always thought that it was interesting, though.
>
> http://philbard.com/panel.html
If you can find one, there was a nifty heavy-duty plastic holder that did 4
sheets 4x5 at once. Very nice because it required very little chemistry. If
I can remember, I'll post a picture of mine.
Uranium Committee
MikeScarpitti:
The process is described in Kodak publications. Here's how to process
sheet film, from 'Negative Making for Professional Photographers'.
--------------------------------------------------------------
DEVELOPMENT
Preparation.
Do not try to develop more films or plates than can be accommodated
with at least a half-inch separation between the hangers. It is
important to maintain this separation, when you lift the hangers for
agitation, by some means such as the use of a suitable
developing-hanger rack.
Arrange the tank so that the plane of the films will be parallel to
the edge of the bench or sink. With the processing solutions at a
temperature of 68 F (20 C), turn out the light, load and assemble the
developing hangers, and proceed as follows: Start of Development.
Start the timer. Lower the hangers as a unit smoothly and carefully
into the developer. Immediately tap the hangers sharply two or three
times on the upper edge of the tank to dislodge any air bells clinging
to the emulsion. Check the spacing of the hangers to make certain that
they are at least one-half inch apart.
Agitation. Allow the hangers to remain undisturbed for the remain- der
of the first minute. Then, quickly but smoothly, lift them clear of
the solution and, keeping the plane of the films parallel to the edge
of the bench or sink, rotate them either clockwise or
counterclockwise. Immediately reimmerse them and again lift them clear
of the solution, rotating them in the opposite direction. It is
important that the angle of rotation should not be appreciably less
than 90 degrees. Reimmerse the hangers quickly in the solution and
check their spacing. The entire cycle of lifting and reimmersion
should be as rapid as possible with- out interfering with smooth
operation. It should be completed in about 5 to 7 seconds. Repeat at
I-minute intervals. Caution: With films larger than 5 by 7 inches,
take care not to lift or immerse them so quickly that the films are
pulled from the hangers.
One of the most common effects resulting from improper tank
development is that of higher density showing around the edges of
high-key or light background negatives. This effect of intensification
at the margins results almost invariably from excessive agitation. It
is not uncommon to see portraits with light backgrounds showing this
effect; it may also be encountered in commercial photography,
especially where uniform areas of tone are involved.
If the film hanger and its contents are moved constantly up and down
in the tank, the developer turbulently flows through the perforations
in the hanger channels, causing excessive development around the edges
of the negative. This effect is plainly visible in the illustration on
page 28. Notice the four spots of heavy density at the top. These were
caused by the developer flowing through the four hinge slots in the
hanger. The same effect can also be obtained by frequently jiggling
the hangers up and down.
The point is that any constant agitation of the hangers, whether it be
manual or mechanical, must be avoided if a high degree of development
uniformity is wanted.
Insufficient Agitation.
This can produce trouble in the form of trailing effects. Typical
example is the illustration on page 27, where long, trailing streaks
can be seen to the left of the subject's head and to the left of the
central squares in the overlying test negative. These trailing streaks
occur below the head and squares as the negatives were held during
processing.
Such streaks appearing in an area of moderate density below one of
high density (black central square) are explained by the following
sequence of events:
1. As development proceeds over the entire negative area, by-products
are formed.
2. These by-products are heavier than the developer and therefore move
downward.
3. Convection currents are set up, causing a downward flow of
developer across the entire area.
4. The downward flow from an area of heavy exposure, such as the black
square, carries partially exhausted developer laden with restraining
by-products, over the area below. Lower densities than would otherwise
occur thus result in the lower area.
Now let us consider what happens in the opposite case - where an area
of moderate density underlies one of low density (white central
square):
1. Convection currents are set up here by the downward motion of the
heavier, partially exhausted developer formed at the moderately dense
area below the white patch (or to the left of the white patch in the
picture).
2. Fresh developer, with almost no oxidation products, is drawn down
from the low density area. The full developer action which results
produces heavier densities below the white patch. The long, trailing
streaks to the left of the subject's low-density hair areas were
formed in this way.
The first example is more commonly encountered in portrait
photography. Both effects can appear in commercial photographs.
The procedure described above has been evolved to produce even
development throughout a negative, and has been thoroughly tested. It
is therefore recommended unhesitatingly as being worth the little
extra time and effort required, especially in the processing of
high-key negatives, or those having uniform areas of tone.
A Kodak Developing Hanger Rack, No.4, is suggested because it provides
for accurate separation of one-half inch between the film- holders and
makes for ease in handling up to fourteen 8 by 10-inch or nineteen 5
by 7 -inch hangers. With care, the procedure can also be successfully
applied without the benefit of a rack, although good results cannot be
expected when a maximum number of hangers is crowded into the tank.
The practice of tipping the hangers almost 90° is important in
obtaining more uniform quality, for when the angle through which the
tipping occurs is reduced, there is a tendency to streaks.
The use of an old or discolored developer, or a developer containing
insufficient sodium sulfite, may produce a yellow stain from the
oxidation products of the developing agents. The stain may be uniform
over the entire negative or may be localized in certain areas. It is
most likely to be obtained with developers containing pyro.
Occasionally, if the developer and fixing bath do not have free access
to the back of the film, the dyes used in the antihalation backing
will not be removed completely and will leave a slight pink stain on
orthochromatic film or a green stain on panchromatic film. This does
no harm unless it is very uneven, but it may be removed by bathing the
film for a few minutes in a moderately alkaline developer or in a 10
percent solution of sodium sulfite.
RINSING When development is complete, lift the hangers from the
developer, drain them for 1 to 2 seconds, and transfer them to the
stop bath or rinse water. Lift and reimmerse the hangers several times
during a 30-second interval at 65 to 70 F (18 to 21 C) before
transferring them to the fixing bath.
FIXING Lift and reimmerse the hangers several times at the beginning
of fixation and again at the end of the first minute. Allow them to
remain until fixation is complete. Separation of the hangers and
frequent agitation will shorten fixing time. Temperature should be 65
to 70 F.
An exhausted fixing bath, lack of agitation, or one film covered by
another so that the solution does not have free access to its surface
may result in incomplete fixation. It causes the appearance of a brown
stain when the film is exposed to light and air after being fixed and
washed. If the film has not been rinsed before fixation, the developer
contained in the emulsion may act on the dissolved silver in the
fixing bath to produce either a yellow stain or greenish dichroic fog.
This is most likely to occur if the acid of the fixing bath is also
exhausted. Complete fixation can be obtained by agitation during
fixation, so that the solution has thorough access to all parts of the
film, and by not overworking the bath. An indication of the condition
of the fixing bath can be obtained by carefully observing the clearing
time while agitating the films frequently. The bath is exhausted and
should be discarded when the time required to clear the film has
increased to twice the time required in a fresh bath.
If it is desired to make very sure of complete fixation, the films can
be treated in one bath until the milkiness caused by undeveloped
silver bromide has cleared, and then can be transferred to a fresh
fixing bath for five more minutes. The first bath does most of the
work and leaves the second fresh and able to remove the last trace of
silver salts. The use of two baths is more important with prints than
with negatives because prints are more difficult to fix completely and
are more susceptible to fading.
When the acid of the fixing bath is neutralized by developer carried
in by the film, the resulting loss of hardening power can lead to
mechanical injury to the emulsion if the temperature of the processing
solutions or the wash water is above normal. If the wash water is too
warm, the emulsion may actually melt; at lower temperatures it will
swell excessively so that it is easily damaged, or it may frill or
partly separate from the support. If there is a difference in
temperature between one solution and another, or between the solutions
and the air, the emulsion may reticulate, that is, form an irregular
network of fine lines which gives it a grainy, leatherlike appearance.
WASHING
Wash for 20 to 30 minutes in an adequate supply of running water.
If a quantity of hypo is left in the film as a result of improper
washing conditions, it may crystallize, possibly weeks or months
later, and give a whitish or frosty appearance to the negative. This
can be prevented entirely by thorough washing of the negatives. If it
occurs, the negatives usulj.lly can be saved by being fixed again and
then washed thoroughly.
Traces of hypo remaining in incompletely washed prints cause fading of
the image but do not attack the negative image so readily.
Negative washing is greatly facilitated with Kodak Hypo Clearing
Agent. After fixing, the negative is rinsed, bathed in this solution
for 1 or 2 minutes, after which a 5-minute wash will suffice.
Surface deposits on the film after washing, consisting usually of
calcium and magnesium salts with more or less organic matter, should
be removed before drying by going over the surface of the film with a
Kodak Photo Chamois, wet absorbent cotton, or a soft sponge. Formation
of such deposits should, however, be prevented in the first place by
adding, if necessary, Kodak Anti-Calcium to the developer, and by the
use of a fresh acid stop bath and fixing bath. Flocculation of organic
matter to form sludge in the wash water is aggravated by the presence
of aluminum salts carried over from the fixing bath; hence the
desirability of draining or even spray rinsing the film after fixation
and before washing.
Any of the troubles mentioned under lack of hardening, such as
swelling, frilling, or reticulation, are likely to be caused by warm
wash water. The temperature of the wash water should be between 65 and
70 F whenever possible. If it is necessary to use water above this
temperature, the film should be thoroughly hardened in a reliable acid
hardening fixing bath or hardening stop bath. If it is impossible to
keep the solutions and wash water sufficiently cool, it may be
necessary to use a special high-temperature processing procedure.
Within moderate limits the temperature of the wash water does not
affect graininess.
DRYING
For drying, first place the films or plates in a tray of clean water
and then mop them gently with dripping-wet absorbent cotton to remove
any scum or sediment which may have settled on the sudace. After
rinsing them in clean water, wipe them with a well-wrung, water-
wetted Kodak Photo Chamois or soft viscose sponge, or bathe them in
diluted Kodak Photo-Flo Solution for about 30 seconds and drain them
before drying. The films or plates preferably should be removed from
the channel-type hanger before drying.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
I hope this suffices.
Tom Phillips
"roll...@rolleiman.com" wrote:
>
> The first 4x5s I did were in trays. I was always concerned however
> about the affect the chems would have on my skin.. So I only did one
> at a time. Do you all use your bare hands for shuffling (as I've seen
> done in texts) or do you wear gloves.. It always seemed to me that
> with gloves would make it difficult to shuffle the films.
If they are skin tight surgical type gloves I don't
find my ability to feel the film and shuffle is
compromised. I don't wear gloves unless it's a
developer that bothers me, like pyro. Otherwise
I go barehanded.
> I've tried many tanks, FR, Nikor, and HP Combi and I have to say I
> liked the combi tank the best. The nikor while it looks pretty was a
> royal pain in the butt to load. Films kept getting hung up on one
> thing or another.. I do note that I could load it perfectly with
> lights on but what good is that?? The FR was junk as far as I could
> see. The Combi tank seems to work the best for me.. Can't say I've
> ever tried hangers.. This Panel looks interesting though. I might give
> that a try..
>
> 8) Jeff
> Tom Phillips <nosp...@aol.com> wrote in message news:<415B2F0D...@aol.com>...
Frank Pittel
: dplotu...@yahoo.com (Collin Brendemuehl) wrote in message news:<8761a511.04092...@posting.google.com>...
: > largf...@aol.com (Largformat) wrote in message news:<20040929005241...@mb-m03.aol.com>...
: > > Step by step instructions on tray developing are on our web site
: > >
: > > www.viewcamera.com
: > >
: > > in the Free Articles section
: > >
: > >
: > > steve simmons
: >
: >
: > I've got a Yankee tank for 4x5.
: > For the first few uses my results were problematic,
: > until I figured out that a circular motion would move
: > the chemicals appropriately and produce a good result.
: > And they're cheap.
: >
: > My suspicion is that any good system can be mis-used, especially when
: > one is just starting. That might be what happened here.
: > Rather than switching systems, look @ the design and see how it's
: > best used. A few sheets of film is cheaper than a new system.
: >
: > Collin
: MikeScarpitti:
: The process is described in Kodak publications. Here's how to process
: sheet film, from 'Negative Making for Professional Photographers'.
I'm not sure what your post has to do with the post that you're replying to.
I hope that you're not implying that by publishing a proceedure for developing
film with hangers that using hangers is the one way that Kodak recommends that
sheet film be developed.
BBarlow690
gloves with PMK.
Bottom line is that I don't feel I do enough volume to be causing great harm
barehanded. Even my PMK volume is probably not enough to worry too much about.
Bruce
Thor Lancelot Simon
roll...@rolleiman.com <roll...@rolleiman.com> wrote:
>The first 4x5s I did were in trays. I was always concerned however
>about the affect the chems would have on my skin.. So I only did one
>at a time. Do you all use your bare hands for shuffling (as I've seen
>done in texts) or do you wear gloves.. It always seemed to me that
>with gloves would make it difficult to shuffle the films.
I don't find it very hard to shuffle film in trays wearing good
quality surgical gloves. It's a little harder wearing generic
drugstore latex gloves, and a little harder still wearing cheap
vinyl drugstore gloves.
That said, I've never found that common darkroom chemicals in trays
have much effect on my skin, unless I let them get trapped somewhere
so that they're in constant contact with it over days at a time; e.g.
absorbed into the band of a watch, or so forth. But I tend to bite my
nails, so I wear gloves when developing anything in trays or else it
_hurts_.
These days I use a Jobo. But I didn't find it hard to learn to do
film stacked in trays, and I did get significantly more even development
than with tank-and-hanger and the Kodak procedure, which is how I
started.
From my point of view, the problem with tank-and-hanger is that there
are just too many ways to get it _wrong_, including very minor equipment
problems that can have dramatic results (even slight unevenness in the
flange of the hanger, for instance, can give flow marks around the
drain holes or even scratch film as you insert or remove it). With
trays, if you're developing at approximately room temperature and you're
careful not to scratch sheets with the corner of other sheets (large,
*flat bottomed* trays are key for this) it is very very easy to
intuitively get it exactly right every time.
I do keep a set of hangers around for washing film, though. I haven't
found anything better for this -- I have two different GravityWorks!
type fill-and-dump washers and the multi-sheet bracket that came with
each allows the film to slip out and pile up at the "drain" end. In
developing hangers, it can't do that.
--
Thor Lancelot Simon t...@rek.tjls.com
But as he knew no bad language, he had called him all the names of common
objects that he could think of, and had screamed: "You lamp! You towel! You
plate!" and so on. --Sigmund Freud
Glenn Barry
Tank here that I tried once or twice without success, gave up after that
as the sheets were slipping out of their notches/slots. It does hold 12
sheets though which is why I'd like to give it another try.
Does anyone have any experience or recommendations as to the agitation
method. The circular motion sounds promising so I thought I'd ask.
I may give it another whirl.
Any other suitable methods anyone can recommned for Pyro Developers
besides trays.
Thanks
Glenn
Glenn Barry
moment so tanks/tubes of some sort are my only option.
Frank Pittel
I just thought I'd pass along a trick a couple of women told about last summer at a
workshop. The year before they were at a LF workshop and one of the instructors showed
the class how he processed film. He used trays to process the film but instead of only
using one tray with developer and shuffling the stack he used two trays with developer.
It wasn't a two part development. What he did was put fresh developer (rodinal diluted
1:150 as memory serves) in both trays. Instead of shuffling the sheets of film he would
simply lift the sheet off of the top of the stack and put it in the other tray and
continue until he had done so with all the film.
If I ever decide to develop film in trays that's the way I'd do it!!
David Starr
<f...@warlock.deepthought.com> wrote:
>I just thought I'd pass along a trick a couple of women told about last summer at a
>workshop. The year before they were at a LF workshop and one of the instructors showed
>the class how he processed film. He used trays to process the film but instead of only
>using one tray with developer and shuffling the stack he used two trays with developer.
>It wasn't a two part development. What he did was put fresh developer (rodinal diluted
>1:150 as memory serves) in both trays. Instead of shuffling the sheets of film he would
>simply lift the sheet off of the top of the stack and put it in the other tray and
>continue until he had done so with all the film.
>
>If I ever decide to develop film in trays that's the way I'd do it!!
Thanks for passing that along. Sounds worth looking into.
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
Professional Shop Rat: 14,481 days in a GM plant.
Frank Pittel
: On Fri, 01 Oct 2004 13:21:54 -0500, Frank Pittel
: <f...@warlock.deepthought.com> wrote:
: >I just thought I'd pass along a trick a couple of women told about last summer at a
: >workshop. The year before they were at a LF workshop and one of the instructors showed
: >the class how he processed film. He used trays to process the film but instead of only
: >using one tray with developer and shuffling the stack he used two trays with developer.
: >It wasn't a two part development. What he did was put fresh developer (rodinal diluted
: >1:150 as memory serves) in both trays. Instead of shuffling the sheets of film he would
: >simply lift the sheet off of the top of the stack and put it in the other tray and
: >continue until he had done so with all the film.
: >
: >If I ever decide to develop film in trays that's the way I'd do it!!
: Thanks for passing that along. Sounds worth looking into.
I'm glad to have passed it along. I wish I was the one that thought of it!! :-)
: - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
: Professional Shop Rat: 14,481 days in a GM plant.
: - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
That's a long time to have worked for a single company. I congratulate you on it and
hope that you continue until you retire.
John McGraw
Thank You, John
WOW! What a great idea! I've never thought of an O - Ring captured
only by male threads as being able to make a H2O thight seal. I'll
have to put that in my bag of tricks. Best, John
Thor Lancelot Simon
Glenn Barry <glenn...@optusnet.com.au> wrote:
>I'm not familiar with the Yankee tank, but I've got an FR Corporation
>Tank here that I tried once or twice without success, gave up after that
>as the sheets were slipping out of their notches/slots. It does hold 12
>sheets though which is why I'd like to give it another try.
This is basically the same problem I have with my GravityWorks! and
Oriental (exact copy of GravityWorks!) fill-and-dump style sheet
film washers. I'm not quite sure how these _could_ work to allow
adequate washing of the film edge while not letting the film slip to
a slight angle in the slot such that the bend of the film under
pressure can snap one edge out of the slot.
On the other hand, I've seen GW washers that didn't have this
problem (which is why I bought one). Hm.
Thor Lancelot Simon
>Tank here that I tried once or twice without success, gave up after that
>as the sheets were slipping out of their notches/slots. It does hold 12
>sheets though which is why I'd like to give it another try.
>
>Does anyone have any experience or recommendations as to the agitation
>method. The circular motion sounds promising so I thought I'd ask.
>I may give it another whirl.
>
>Any other suitable methods anyone can recommned for Pyro Developers
>besides trays.
Tank-and-hanger *really* doesn't work with staining pyro developers.
I've had many, many bad experiences with that.
The "big laboratory" deep-tank system that uses film clips in the film
corners instead of hangers that surround the film, and nitrogen bursts
generated from a small piece of perforated copper tubing at the bottom
of the tank, instead of physical dip-and-dunk of the hangers to for
agitation, *does* work with staining Pyro developers. It works really,
really well in fact.
It is a little bit complicated to set up, and requires a nitrogen
tank, but a small one will work. Since this system uses stainless
tanks, it also lets you put the tanks in a water bath and do critical
temperature control for color processing like C41 or E6. It really
is a terrific system and the only advantage I know of the Jobo tanks
over it is that the Jobo tanks are far more efficient for processing
small amounts of film -- deep tank with nitrogen burst is a nuisance
to set up and tear down and uses a lot of chemistry at once so it is
popular in environments in which a lot of film is processed at once.
bob
@news20.bellglobal.com:
> Someone on this forum was kind enough to give me this advice : get a
> system, stick with the system, change only one thing at a time in your
> system and that way you can overcome each problem one at a time.
>
From an industrial "design of experiments" standpoint, you can find the
optimal solution much quicker by changing a number of variables at once.
There are, for instance, probably 10,000 permutations of settings on my
printer driver, but I did not need to make that many test prints to
determine which is best for my purposes.
Same thing works in photography. Suppose you have 4 variables. You might
try these four tests (Letters are test conditions, numbers are
variables):
--1234
A-xxoo
B-xoxo
C-ooxx
E-xoox
Instead of 24 tests, you do 4, and you can probably figure out what's
going on. Your findings might lead you to do another test or two to
confirm things. Sometimes you can't figure things out from the 4 tests,
and then you just need to do more. Depends how well you set up the
experiements. The theory assumes you understand enough about the process
to have an idea of which variables are important.
Of course if you have the time and the money, there's no reason not to be
exhaustive in your testing.
Bob
--
Delete the inverse SPAM to reply
bob
news:pan.2004.09.29.04.39.14.715000@NO_SP_A_Myahoo.com:
> I've gone through my first 25-sheet pack of film. I've figured out
> how to operate my view camera just fine. I can take a decent
> picture-- exposing and focusing properly. But I had no idea how
> difficult developing it is...I thought that would be the easy part
>
I invented my own system, and it seems to work pretty well, but I haven't
processed more than 20 sheets yet, I don't think.
I cut 2" pvc tubes and smooth out the edges. I put the film into them
emusion side up, and roll them through the chemicals, while occasionally
rocking the tray from side to side.
David Starr
<f...@warlock.deepthought.com> wrote:
>: >If I ever decide to develop film in trays that's the way I'd do it!!
>
>: Thanks for passing that along. Sounds worth looking into.
>
>I'm glad to have passed it along. I wish I was the one that thought of it!! :-)
>
>: - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
>: Professional Shop Rat: 14,481 days in a GM plant.
>: - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
>
>That's a long time to have worked for a single company. I congratulate you on it and
>hope that you continue until you retire.
Retirement will be some time between Dec. 1 and April 1. If I've got
enough darkroom projects to last through the winter, it'll be Dec.
ed
Shelley
> best so far. But I realized that 3 of my favorite shots are messed up
> because, for about 10-20 seconds, the tubes were not moving. Yep...uneven
> development even though total time was 8 minutes.
The tubes need to be kept moving more or less constantly. With only two
tubes the easiest way to do that is to put them in a water jacket, which can
be any tray 8x10 or larger filled with water at about the same temperature
as your developer, put the two tubes next to each other in the water, and
then spin them by "pinching " them with your thumb and another finger.
Switch them around periodically so that each tube isn't moving in the same
direction all the time (I switch every ten seconds but there's nothing magic
about that number).
The BTZS tubes are, IMHO, the best and easiest way to develop small
quantities of film at a relatively small cost for the tubes (six tubes,
twelve caps, and the BTZS water jacket tray costs about $150). The Jobo
system is better for large quantities since with it you can develop ten
negatives at a time, whereas the BTZS system limits you to about six at a
time, but Jobo is considerably more expensive and takes up much more space.
Also requires separate runs for N, N plus 1, N minus 1, etc. times. With
BTZS you work in daylight once the tubes are loaded with film and developer,
you don't have to stand around shuffling film in the dark and inhaling
chemicals for ten or fifteen minutes as you do with trays, your chemical
costs are minimal (one or two ounces of developer per tube), you can develop
different sheets for different times in the same run, and you'll never get a
scratch if you handle the film properly. I've been using the BTZS tubes for
about 10 years in both 4x5 and 8x10 and have been very pleased with them.
"PGG" <pa_paSPAAMgordygrapes@NO_SP_A_Myahoo.com> wrote in message
news:pan.2004.09.29.04.39.14.715000@NO_SP_A_Myahoo.com...
> I've gone through my first 25-sheet pack of film. I've figured out how to
> operate my view camera just fine. I can take a decent picture-- exposing
> and focusing properly. But I had no idea how difficult developing it
> is...I thought that would be the easy part
>
> first 5 sheets I fumbled around with a color processing tube that didn't
> work out due to the film not staying flat against the tube
>
> next 3-5 sheets I tried using my own PVC tubes. They leaked all over the
> place and I got uneven development
>
> next 10 sheets I tray developed. At least these were evenly developed but
> all scratched up. Plus I fumbled around in the dark spilling crap all
> over the floor.
>
> My most recent attempts have been with 2 BZTS tubes bought on eBay. The
> best so far. But I realized that 3 of my favorite shots are messed up
> because, for about 10-20 seconds, the tubes were not moving. Yep...uneven
> development even though total time was 8 minutes.
>
Nick Zentena
>
> The BTZS tubes are, IMHO, the best and easiest way to develop small
> quantities of film at a relatively small cost for the tubes (six tubes,
> twelve caps, and the BTZS water jacket tray costs about $150). The Jobo
> system is better for large quantities since with it you can develop ten
> negatives at a time, whereas the BTZS system limits you to about six at a
> time, but Jobo is considerably more expensive and takes up much more space.
$150 is almost enough to get you a brand new Jobo 2 reel kit. Add $20 for
a motorbase and you're set for 1 to 12 negatives. Downside is you need to use
at least 600ml of solution no matter what. OTOH you can use a lot more if
you need to. If you buy used the whole setup will be much cheaper.
Nick
Donald Qualls
Or $150 will buy the materials to make about two dozen of the daylight
fill tubes I use for my 9x12 cm. They're made from ABS drain pipe ($5
or so for ten feet) and fittings (about $4 per tube for caps, PVC fill
tube, cap for the fill tube, and ABS sheet light baffle), and because I
fill them with enough liquid to fully cover the film, I can use
inversion agitation cycles like what I'd use with a roll film tank.
Highly dilute developer, or a reusable soup like Diafine, made them
economical, though I could (at the cost of more materials and effort)
make cores for them to reduce their liquid capacity if needed. I could,
if I chose, bind them together in sets of 3 or 7 if I want/need to
process a lot of sheets at a time, fill during inversion lulls, and
still do N- and N+ in the same batch with N. No water bath tray needed.
If I get unions, I can even join two tubes with a single set of caps
and process twice as many sheets.
Oh, and what do you do with BTZS tubes when your dev time is up? Turn
out the lights and try to pour stop bath in the dark, IIRC...
--
I may be a scwewy wabbit, but I'm not going to Alcatwaz!
-- E. J. Fudd, 1954
Donald Qualls, aka The Silent Observer
Lathe Building Pages http://silent1.home.netcom.com/HomebuiltLathe.htm
Speedway 7x12 Lathe Pages http://silent1.home.netcom.com/my7x12.htm
Opinions expressed are my own -- take them for what they're worth
and don't expect them to be perfect.
Hunt
pa_paSPAAMgordygrapes@NO_SP_A_Myahoo.com says...
>
>I've gone through my first 25-sheet pack of film. I've figured out how to
>operate my view camera just fine. I can take a decent picture-- exposing
>and focusing properly. But I had no idea how difficult developing it
>is...I thought that would be the easy part
>
>first 5 sheets I fumbled around with a color processing tube that didn't
>work out due to the film not staying flat against the tube
>
>next 3-5 sheets I tried using my own PVC tubes. They leaked all over the
>place and I got uneven development
>
>next 10 sheets I tray developed. At least these were evenly developed but
>all scratched up. Plus I fumbled around in the dark spilling crap all
>over the floor.
>
>My most recent attempts have been with 2 BZTS tubes bought on eBay. The
>best so far. But I realized that 3 of my favorite shots are messed up
>because, for about 10-20 seconds, the tubes were not moving. Yep...uneven
>development even though total time was 8 minutes.
>
>Sigh.... Frustrated but I haven't quite given up yet.
Don't bother with tubes, or trays. Get SS (stainless steel) hangers and tanks
for those hangers. You should be able to find a set of hangers and tanks on e
-bay.
Hunt