Printing Out Paper
Richard Knoppow
I've lost track of it. Hopefully those intereste will see this header.
For those who didn't see the original printing out paper is an old
form of printing paper which does not need development. The image is
formed directly by the action of very strong light, usually direct
sunlight, on the emulsion. Printing out papers are very similar to
albumin paper except that the emulsion is made with gelatin. It is
similar to developing out paper (conventional printing paper) except
that the emulsion has an excess of silver salts, which are washed out
of conventional emulsions. The action of direct light produces
metallic silver (photolytic silver) without other processing.
POP was very widely used for proofing until perhaps twenty years
ago. If not toned and fixed the images are not permanent, unless the
paper is stored in the dark. Any light striking them will cause
further darkening. Some papers darkened with time even in dark stroage
due to chemical changes in the remaining silver halides in the
emulsion. By toning and fixing the images can be made quite permanent.
Printing out paper is available now from Centenial through Silver
Print in England and Bostick and Sulllivan in the US.
It has the interesting property of being self-masking. As the shadow
areas are exposed they, of course, become darker, which slows up
further darkening. The effect is of a long toe, stretching the tonal
range of shadows and preventing them from becoming blocked. As a
result POP is sort of self adjusting for negative contrast and can
produce prints from quite contrasty negatives which have both shadow
and highlight detail.
After exposure the the sun the image color is a sort of red-sepia.
the actual color varies a little with the way the emulsion is made but
its approximately that. By toning the image it can be made neutral or
blue-black or a brown color. Some Gold toners produce a sort of
reddish color.
Silver Print and B&S will supply details of processing and modern
toner formulas but the following is generic stuff which works.
The paper is first exposed and brought to the desired density by
inspection. Most printing frames have means for folding back part of
the back for inspection of the print without moving it relative to the
negative. The correct density is strictly a judgement call based on
experience. The density of the final print wil vary from the original
density. In general the prints should be considerably darker than the
final print is desiered to be.
After exposure the print is washed in running water until no more
cloudy precipitat comes out of it. This cloudy material is the excess
silver salts. There is no harm from a little overwashing. Washing for
15 minutes is sufficient.
After washing the print is toned. The most common toner is a Gold
toner which produces a cold-black image color. An example of a POP
toner is:
Sodium Acetate (fused) 10.0 grams
Borax (granular) 1.0 gram
Gold Chloride (1% solution) 25.0 ml
Water to make 1.0 liter
This bath should be allowed to stand and age at least an hour before
use.
The print should be toned until completion with occasional
agitation.
After toning rinse for a few minutes in running water and fix in
the following
Sodium thiosulfate (crystaline) 100.0 grams
Sodium Carbonate 1.0 gram
Water to make 1.0 liter
Anhydrous hypo can be used with an adjustment in amount, about 60
grams is right.
Fix in two successive baths for about three minutes in each.
Treat in Hypo Clearing Agent and wash.
POP emulsions tend to be delicate so some care in handling is
recommended.
There are many other toner variations including some Platinum and
Paladium toners. Reportedly Kodak Rapid Selenium Toner can also be
used but probably the paper must be fixed first to avoid toning of the
halide remaining in the emulsion along with the silver.
It is possible to combine the toning and fixing steps but generally
the results from separate treatments is superior.
This is intended to be no more than an introdution to this nearly
forgotten but beautiful process. The self-masking allows good prints
to be made directly from very difficult to print negatives which would
require either masking or extensive burning and dodging to print
otherwise.
Unfortunately, the paper is fairly expensive, since it is now a
specialty item.
You need only a contact printing frame and a couple of trays to work
with it.
---
Richard Knoppow
Los Angeles, Ca.
dick...@ix.netcom.com
David Boyce
will let the group know how it goes. I have seen some lovely prints by a
local photographer on POP. They certainly have a "look."
David Boyce.
"Richard Knoppow" <dick...@ix.netcom.com> wrote in message
news:3b103fe7....@news.mindspring.com...
Kerik 717
outline of the process. Let me throw in a few more details.
First, it really isn't all that expensive compared to current top-of-the-line
gelatin silver papers. 25 sheets of 20x24 costs about $165.
Second, plan on printing much darker than you want the final print to be. The
prints lose density in the toning/fixing steps. The density loss varies
depending on the type of toner and how long you tone.
POP provides an extremely wide array of print color choices depening how and
with what you tone it.
I've had very good luck with a simple platinum toner. Add about 7 drops of
standard platinum solution for platinum printing (aka B&S no. 3) per liter to a
10% citric acid solution. Short toning = warmer prints, longer toning =
cool/neutral prints. Replenish a few drops at a time, as needed. This toner
tends to be cheaper for a given number of prints than the gold toner, but
that's hardly the point.
You can also follow the platinum toning with a gold toning step to get some
interesting split tone effects.
I find POP to be 2 to 4 times slower than platinum printing under UV
flourescents or mercury vapor light. I never print with the sun, so I don't
have a comparison there. I get considerably lower contrast, especially in the
highlights, with my plate burner (merc vapor) vs. my UV flourescent box.
I highly recommend this paper to anyone who likes to contact print. The prints
are really beautiful with their own distinct character. Linda Connor is
probably the best known POP-ist. Her prints are to die for.
You can see some POP prints on my site, but of course, you lose a lot in the
digital renditions.
Kerik Kouklis
http://www.kerik.com
ps You can also purchase the paper from The Chicago Albumenworks.
www.albumenworks.com
iloveasia
Do POP images last as long as silver prints?
Are POP images superior to other non-traditional process?
Are they much cheaper than Platinum/Palladium process?
Is the process safe to work with (as compared with silver process)?
How dense should a negative be to work with POP?
Many Thanks,
Aaron
Sandy King
(Kerik 717) wrote:
>
> I've had very good luck with a simple platinum toner. Add about 7 drops of
> standard platinum solution for platinum printing (aka B&S no. 3) per
liter to a
> 10% citric acid solution. Short toning = warmer prints, longer toning =
> cool/neutral prints. Replenish a few drops at a time, as needed. This toner
> tends to be cheaper for a given number of prints than the gold toner, but
> that's hardly the point.
What color image are you getting with platinum toning?
>
> I highly recommend this paper to anyone who likes to contact print. The
prints
> are really beautiful with their own distinct character. Linda Connor is
> probably the best known POP-ist. Her prints are to die for.
What DR negative is needed for printing with the Centennial paper?
>
Sandy King
Richard Knoppow
_Toned_ POP is perfectly permanent. The most often used toners are
Gold and Platinum. These plate the silver image and are very resistant
to oxidation. The permanence is the same as for a conventional print
fully toned in Gold.
An unfixed POP print has limited life since it will darken when
exposed to light and may also darken due to chemical action in the
emulsion during dark storage. However, I've seen some very old POP
prints kept in the dark which were still OK.
Photographers used to supply proof prints on unfixed POP because
they were not permanent.
POP is really a traditional process. Salt prints and Albumin prints
are printing out paper of somewhat earlier dat than Gelatin POP. This
method of printing was the most used until about the 1880's.
The advantage of POP over conventional "developing out paper" is the
self-masking. This gives the paper a sort of automatic contrast
adjustment. However, since it tends to flatten shadow contrast
negatives which print best on POP are usually pretty contrasty.
All POP processes have a certain amount of self-masking due to the
exposure desensitizing the sensitive layer somewhat but POP has more
than other processes because of the darkening of the exposed areas.
This gives POP prints a look which is hard to duplicate otherwise.
Its cheaper than Platinum or Paladium unless you use a Platinum or
Paladium toner. I am not sure how much Pt/Pl gets used up during
toning, probably less than in Pt printing.
Gold is a lot cheaper and a little makes a lot of prints.
The paper itself is somewhat more expensive then conventional
printing paper, but not tremendously. Bostick & Sullivan's price is
around $1 US per 8x10 sheet, I've not checked other sources for price.
The chemistry is quite safe. The fixer is Hypo at a about half the
strength normally used alkalized with some Sodium carbonate.
The toner is mostly Borax with the very diluted Gold chloride in it.
Any paper will darken in sunlight due to photolytic generation of
metallic silver. However, the effect is not enough for practical
printing. I've seen formulas for converting out-dated conventional
paper to POP but they don't really seem to be worth the trouble.
The emulsions of the two kinds of papers are actually quite similar
except that POP has a lot of excess silver nitrate in it, which is
washed out of conventional emulsions.
It isn't the density but rather the contrast of the negative which is
important. POP negatives probablly do not need to be a conrasty as
Platinum negatives, and good prints can be gotten from "normal"
negatives but the best prints need the contrast. A good negative for
POP will probably be hard to print on conventional material.
iloveasia
Richard,
Thanks for the added info. I have more questions:-
What kind of surface texture is normally found in POP?
What kind of light is used to inspect the print in progress?
How do you mount POP (hinges, dry mount)?
Is it possible to work with POP in the absence of a darkroom?
Can you also recommend any book that may be helpful to me?
Appreciate it.
Aaron
Richard Knoppow
POP is normally glossy although long ago it came in other surfaces.
It can be ferrotyped (glazed) or left natural. The emulsion is just
like conventional paper.
Printing is inspected in indoor light or outdoor shadow, the paper
is very insensitive.
No darkroom is needed, just a place to work. You don't really even
need running water although its a convenience for the washing steps.
Mounting is the same as for conventional paper. You can use
photo-corners, hinges, dry mounting, adhesive, whatever.
I think someone posted the name of a book written about POP but it
escapes me. Searching the thread in the news group may find it. I
don't know of a good book dedicated to POP although its covered pretty
well in old photographic handbooks.
Centenial POP is made by Kentmere in England. There is nothing on
their web site. I found some stuff doing a Google search but not any
detail.
The process is very simple:
Expose the paper in a frame using sunlight or very strong artifical
light (Mercury arc, ect.) until its dark enough. The degree of
exposure depends on the nature of the after treatment and must be
judged by eye based on experience.
Once the paper is exposed its washed for about fifteen minutes.
After washing its treated in the toner. Toning time is judged
visually, the print simply stops darkening after a time. After toning
its washed again for a few minutes and then fixed in a weak alkaline
fixing bath, prefferably two successive baths. After that its given a
final wash and dried. That's it. Toning is to completion so leaving it
too long makes little difference. Fixing is similar to fixing
conventional paper. In the two bath set up fix about five minutes in
each bath (it may actually take less but you can't over fix) then wash
for half an hour. If you use wash aid washing time will be shorter.
The prints are dried on screens just as conventional paper, the only
precaution is to be careful of the surfaces since the gelatin is not
very hard while wet.
Check your library for older photography books.
Bostick and Sullivan have a collection of Gold toners but they are
in very old fashioned amounts, and hard to follow. Actually, they look
like their written using apothacary's measure. Weird.
Check the library for _Photgraphic Facts and Formulas_ This was
published in several editions from the mid 1920's to the mid or late
1960's. It will have some helpful stuff in it.
Kerik 717
>What color image are you getting with platinum toning?
The platinum toner gives a "browner" brown image rather than the reddish brown
of the gold toner. With longer toning times, the platinum toner goes to almost
a dead neutral gray (not my preference). Longer toning times in the gold toner
give a cool, bluish image.
>What DR negative is needed for printing with the Centennial paper?
It seems to work well with a relative wide variety of negatives. Most of my
platinum negatives print well on POP, although a few of them are just a bit too
contrasty for POP. This might change with a different light source (such as the
sun) as I get lower contrast with a mercury vapor unit vs. a UV flourescent
unit.
My negs are all Pyro, and I refuse to use a densitometer (don't own one, don't
want one), so I can't give you real DR numbers. However, I have negs that are
a bit on the soft side for Pt/Pd that print beautifully in POP. POP also seems
to handle relatively thin negs better than Pt/Pd.
Kerik Kouklis
www.Kerik.com
Kerik 717
Properly toned, fixed and washed, yes they should
>Are POP images superior to other non-traditional process?
Superior in what way? That's pretty subjective. I like POP betten than
platinum for certain images, and some images I like printed in both media.
>Are they much cheaper than Platinum/Palladium process?
Not really, when you factor in the toning. Although platinum is more expensive
than gold, I find the platinum toner goes alot further than the gold toner and
my opinion is that the cost of toning between platinum and gold is about a
wash.
The work flow with POP can really slow down due to the longer exposure times
and the toning. You really have to babysit the print in the toner. You can't
just drop it in the tray and come back later or you'll have very uneven toning.
Agitation is critical.
>Is the process safe to work with (as compared with silver process)?
Very comparable.
>How dense should a negative be to work with POP?
Good shadow detail, but not overly dense. Very dense negs can take a
loooonnnnggg time to print (more than an hour). However, my negs are Pyro, so
they print slower due to the pyro stain than a "regular" negative would.
Hope that helps.
Kerik Kouklis
www.Kerik.com
Kerik 717
When you buy the Centennial paper it comes with a pretty good instruction sheet
to get you started. It's going to take some trial and error to get a feel for
how dark to print, then how long to tone for your desired effects.
The surface of the finished prints is quite beautiful - glossy, but hard to
describe - a little different than "normal" silver gelatin papers.
POP prints need to be dried face UP on drying screens, or the soft emulsion can
pick up the texture of the screen.
POP prints curl LIKE CRAZY when they dry, so a dry mount press for flattening
the prints is almost a necessity.
I simply mount them with corners. I am not a fan of dry mounting in any media.
good luck,
Kerik Kouklis
www.Kerik.com
Mark Westling
I'm new to Pt/Pd printing. How do you calculate exposure times without a
densitometer?
Thanks,
Mark
"Kerik 717" <keri...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:20010529131056...@ng-fq1.aol.com...
Kerik 717
>densitometer?
Mark,
Practice, practice, practice! If your negs are fairly consistent, it's pretty
easy to learn to read them for platinum using just your eyeballs. You can also
make test strips, of course, but a little experience with the process goes a
long way.
good luck,
Kerik
www.Kerik.com
Mark Westling
Thanks, Kerry, I'm trying to keep the Pt/Pd process as simple as possible.
Not having to buy a $750 densitometer really helps!
I assume you do use a UV lightbox for consistency?
Thanks much,
Mark
"Kerik 717" <keri...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:20010529173406...@ng-mc1.aol.com...
Lee Carmichael
ago that were POP and they had a nice "Eggplant" color to them. Am I
correct to assume that this color is the result of Gold Toning?
Thanks ahead of time,
Lee Carmichael
mailto:click...@home.com
"Kerik 717" <keri...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:20010529131900...@ng-fq1.aol.com...
Kerry L. Thalmann
That was Kerik Kouklis, not me (Kerry Thalmann) who responded to your
Pt/Pd questions. He's much more of a Pt/Pd expert than I'll ever be, so
it's not fair (but tempting) for me to take credit for his responses.
Kerry
Mark Westling wrote:
> Thanks, Kerry, I'm trying to keep the Pt/Pd process as simple as possible.
> Not having to buy a $750 densitometer really helps!
> "Kerik 717" <keri...@aol.com> wrote in message
> news:20010529173406...@ng-mc1.aol.com...
> > >I'm new to Pt/Pd printing. How do you calculate exposure times without a
> > >densitometer?
> >
> > Mark,
> >
> > Practice, practice, practice! If your negs are fairly consistent, it's
> pretty
> > easy to learn to read them for platinum using just your eyeballs. You can
> also
> > make test strips, of course, but a little experience with the process goes
> a
> > long way.
> >
> > good luck,
> > Kerik
> > www.Kerik.com
--
Kerry's Large Format Homepage
http://largeformat.terrashare.com
Your online source for totally biased and opinionated
large format equipment reviews and recommendations
Mark Westling
long ago... <s>
FWIW, I like both of your work... <s>
Mark
"Kerry L. Thalmann" <large...@thalmann.com> wrote in message
news:3B14537E...@thalmann.com...
Kerik 717
>I saw some images a while
>ago that were POP and they had a nice "Eggplant" color to them.
Yes, that definintely sounds like a color you can get with gold toned POP.
Kerk
Kerik Kouklis
Platinum/Palladium Photographs
http://www.kerik.com
Lee Carmichael
Lee Carmichael
mailto:click...@home.com
"Kerik 717" <keri...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:20010529234308...@ng-fo1.aol.com...
Sandy King
(Kerik 717) wrote:
I don't disagree with any of the above. Practice is good, good, good! And
experience with any process is defiitely needed. But an understanding of
sensitometry and its applications with a densitometry can save you a ton of
time, and with platinum, probably a load of money as well. Plus it gives
one a greater understanding of the mechanism of how these processes work,
and I for one find that interesting and a lot of fun.
This is not to say, mind you, that one must have a densitometer to make
good prints with alternative processes, only that it is a tool that can
save you a lot of time and experimentation if you give it a chance.
BTW, you don't have to spend $700-1000 for a good densitometer. Excellent
ones go on ebay quite often for $200-300.
Sandy
Kerik 717
>sensitometry and its applications with a densitometry can save you
I have a good understanding of sensitometry and how to apply it with a
densitometer. I've done it. I just don't enjoy working that way. I find a
more intuitive approach more fun and much more rewarding. And, I waste very
little of my precious materials. I get to be a scientist all day for my day
job. When I print, I just want to print.
Whatever floats your boat!
iloveasia
paper etc..?
Thanks,
Aaron
Kerik 717
>paper etc..
Don't know for sure, haven't tried it. I would guess #0 or #1 would work.
christine
I would just like to mention that I've been to your website and your images are absolutely stunning. You seem to be able to capture an ethereal quality I've been chasing after for a long time. After some reading, I thought maybe the answer would be alternative processes and pyro film developer. You have just confirmed that suspicion for me.
Thanks much,
Christine
-- ______________________________________________________________ Christine M. Shepherd NAPC Technical Support 781.391.3006 x 240 sup...@napc.com
Mark Anderson
> Photographers used to supply proof prints on unfixed POP because
> they were not permanent.
I remember those. Yet, if the negative required is different than for
DOP, and the look of POP is different than DOP, how did the photographer
get a print that looked good enough on the proofs to generate sales, but
was also good enough to print DOP when the orders came in? And wouldn't
the look of the proofs lead to an expectation of getting something that
looked different from what was actually delivered?
--
Mark Anderson
DBA Riparia www.teleport.com/~andermar/
"The trouble with good ideas
is that they soon degenerate into a lot of hard work." Anon.
Richard Knoppow
"Normal" negatives, especially those for contact printing or
diffusion enlarging will print pretty well on POP. Its just that POP
is somewhat self adjusting to contrast and can make good prints from
negatives of considerably higher contrast than are easily printible by
conventional methods and may look a bit better when strongly contrasty
negatives are printed.
In any case, the proofs were never intended to look exaclty like a
finished print. They were mostly meant to judge poses rather than
quallity.
iloveasia
local library contain much information about it. Would appreciate if someone
could give a brief history of the process. Also, since POP prints better on
more contrasty negs, does it mean that POP prints display a wider range of
tone as would be other alternative process photographs? How else does a POP
print look different from (or similiar to) a silver print? Thanks,
Aaron