Marine Park Camera of NY- Stay away from
Jeff Spirer
dkak...@aol.com wrote:
>
> You mail order freaks just don't learn.... Most of the mail order houses
> are selling you "class B" and "Gray Market" products and you probably
> don't even realize it. B&H photo is one of the biggest rip-offs in the
> photo industry. If you don't believe me, call Eastman Kodak and ask them
> about B&H photo... Wake up people. When the prices are that much better
> than legit photo stores, don't you think something is fishy?
This is nonsense.
1) Based on what you say here, you don't know anything about how B&H
works. I do. I worked on a business deal with them several years ago
and I know quite a bit about their busines, and it is all on the level.
2) If someone at Kodak says anything other than "They are an authorized
reseller" or "They are not an authorized reseller", then either their
lawyers aren't doing any training (and this is unlikely, see 3 below) or
someone is looking to get fired.
3) When Kodak does have a problem, they seem to have no problem
litigating.
Your post is insulting in its allegations, especially based on what has
been posted here on Usenet about B&H.
By the way, the post you responded to was about Marine Park Camera, not
B&H. Usually people respond to the matter at hand, not their own
personal vendetta.
--
Jeff Spirer
http://www.hyperreal.com/axiom/
Axiom Records/Material Communications
Jeff Spirer
Don Bledsoe wrote:
>
> dkak...@aol.com wrote:
> > You mail order freaks just don't learn.... Most of the mail order houses
> > are selling you "class B" and "Gray Market" products and you probably
> > don't even realize it.
>
B stock usually refers to discontinued and/or remanufactured product.
The term is quite commonly used in the computer business.
Doesn't change the fact that this person knows nothing about B&H's
business and is making wild accusations.
dkak...@aol.com
You mail order freaks just don't learn.... Most of the mail order houses
are selling you "class B" and "Gray Market" products and you probably
Don Bledsoe
dkak...@aol.com wrote:
> You mail order freaks just don't learn.... Most of the mail order houses
> are selling you "class B" and "Gray Market" products and you probably
> don't even realize it.
What exactly is a "class B... product..."? Please describe this for me.
> B&H photo is one of the biggest rip-offs in the
> photo industry. If you don't believe me, call Eastman Kodak and ask them
> about B&H photo...
Don't know about B&H since I've never ordered from them but have had
wonderful service from Camera World of Oregon and their prices are very
good, certainly better than I can get locally (though I still buy the
majority of my stuff, to include cameras, from my local store).
> Wake up people. When the prices are that much better
> than legit photo stores, don't you think something is fishy?
Let me guess... you consider yourself a "legit photo store..."?
Do you shop for a discount when buying a new car or do you religiously buy
from your local dealer? How about computer equipment? The local source or
one of the big discount chain stores? Do you shop at the mall in the
discount chains (headquartered in who knows where) for clothes or buy from
the little mom & pop shop down the street where the prices are higher
because they're trying to eke out a living? How about your food source?
Fast food from a national chain or a local owned drive inn? How about
groceries? Mom & Pop's market or one of the huge (headquartered who knows
were) super markets?
Sounds like sour grapes to me. I do not enjoy, nor am I rich enough, to
pay some of the local high prices. Everything is tight these days for most
of us. We're most from two income families just to stay ahead. If you
want to complain to someone try the US Government and their continual give
away programs that rob us of our earned income and penalize us when we do
better. If they didn't take such a huge chunk of my paycheck I probably
could afford to buy everything from my local "legit" stores.
Welcome to the real world buddy.
Don out West
Ed O'Rourke
dkak...@aol.com wrote:
>
> You mail order freaks just don't learn.... Most of the mail order houses
> are selling you "class B" and "Gray Market" products and you probably
> photo industry. If you don't believe me, call Eastman Kodak and ask them
> than legit photo stores, don't you think something is fishy?
I think you are out to lunch. B+H is very reliable and clearly state in
their ads whether they are selling Kodak film made in the USA or
elsewhere. Their prices are not hard to explain at all....volume. I
was at the Hunt Photo Show in Boston this weekend at the Kodak booth and
they were selling their own film for almost exactly what B+H charges.
"Legitimate" (your term) photo shops are simply small shops that cannot
get the volume discounts that B+H can.
Michael Paris
dkak...@aol.com wrote:
B&H photo is one of the biggest rip-offs in the
>photo industry. If you don't believe me, call Eastman Kodak and ask them
>about B&H photo... Wake up people. When the prices are that much better
>than legit photo stores, don't you think something is fishy?
Yea, ask Kodak, it was just that B&H didn't wish to be extorted into
Kodak's "you can't sell grey, if you want to be a pro dealer and
provide Pro-Rewards points" then get it off the shelf. Then again you
may think it's just fine to pay $10.00 and more per roll for
Ektachrome from a "legit" photo store!
Ed O'Rourke
Danny I think your idea is generally correct with regard to the
possibility of price fixing and driving out competition IF you really
can get a lions share of the market under your control. I doubt
seriously that B+H, despite their size and status, controls anywhere
close to the amount of market share they would need to in order to pull
of such a Machiavellian (or Adam Smithian) scheme. If Henry and his
pals controlled that much of the national market I would be shocked. I
suggest that B+H is dominant in the same way that Coke is...and there
are many many small fish out there that add up to a much bigger slice of
the pie than Coke controls.
On the other hand, B+H must might be the pricing standard for certain
items. Ever notice how B+H prices for Canon L lens are matched exactly
by the "lesser" photo dealers in their adds.
Danny Gonzalez wrote:
>
> I hope Mr. Posner won't hate me forever for this but....first, a
> disclaimer: I know almost nothing of B+H's business practices and post
> this as _purely_ in the interest of furthering the learning curve. As a
> matter of fact, I think B+H is one of NY's better places to shop and since
> they do bend over backwards to solve customer problems, I recommend them.
>
> That said, B+H is in an almost unique position in that they own a
> significant percentage of the overall camera market. Anyone familiar with
> concepts of marketing would recognize that B+H's obvious dominance puts
> them in a unique position as it _could_ pertain to price fixing. the
> 'vehicle' of this theory would be the practice of 'dumping' (selling
> product at below legitimate manufacturing cost) to gain dominant market
> share, and then to slowly raise prices after 'killing off' your existing
> competition.
SNIP
Danny Gonzalez
I hope Mr. Posner won't hate me forever for this but....first, a
disclaimer: I know almost nothing of B+H's business practices and post
this as _purely_ in the interest of furthering the learning curve. As a
matter of fact, I think B+H is one of NY's better places to shop and since
they do bend over backwards to solve customer problems, I recommend them.
That said, B+H is in an almost unique position in that they own a
significant percentage of the overall camera market. Anyone familiar with
concepts of marketing would recognize that B+H's obvious dominance puts
them in a unique position as it _could_ pertain to price fixing. the
'vehicle' of this theory would be the practice of 'dumping' (selling
product at below legitimate manufacturing cost) to gain dominant market
share, and then to slowly raise prices after 'killing off' your existing
competition.
In order for the concept to work, B_H would have to have a firm hold of
the industry ear as they'ld (BH and the MFG's) need to make sure they
couldn't be undersold in order to establish that dominance. Then, the
inside cooperation would have to extend into other aras (The manufacturers
would have to squeeze off supplies from other outlets and sell to B+H's
competition _only_ at higher margins). Theorhetically, if the scenario
were to hold water, market prices would then take leaps well above the
return from a formula that includes inflation here and in the MFGr's
country of origin, and exchange rates. Ideally, a intra governmental deal
would take care of that part nicely (I know it's far-fetched<s>).
Eventually, one country and one store would become the almost exlusive
supplier of photographic equipment.
Anyone care to debate this realistically to another end? Market theory is
interesting to me....
Danny Gonzalez
Nick Silva
In article <328812...@a1.tch.harvard.edu>, orou...@a1.tch.harvard.edu
wrote:
> Danny I think your idea is generally correct with regard to the
> possibility of price fixing and driving out competition IF you really
> can get a lions share of the market under your control. I doubt
> seriously that B+H, despite their size and status, controls anywhere
> close to the amount of market share they would need to in order to pull
> of such a Machiavellian (or Adam Smithian) scheme. If Henry and his
> pals controlled that much of the national market I would be shocked. I
> suggest that B+H is dominant in the same way that Coke is...and there
> are many many small fish out there that add up to a much bigger slice of
> the pie than Coke controls.
>
> On the other hand, B+H must might be the pricing standard for certain
> items. Ever notice how B+H prices for Canon L lens are matched exactly
> by the "lesser" photo dealers in their adds.
I'm guessing that this has more to do with MAP (Minimum Advertisable Price)
than the small fry following B&H's lead..
________________________________________________________________________________
Chance favors the prepared mind.
n...@inamess.vip.best.com
________________________________________________________________________________
weins...@aol.com
With all due respect, Mr. Gonzalez' theory of price domination by B&H
doesn't hold water. Selling below cost on a sustained basis "to gain
market share" makes sense ONLY if you can be successful in driving
everyone else out f the market, after which you could increase prices to
recoup the losses you suffered. Once you increase prices, you can only
sustain them (and recapture your losses) if entry into the business is
very difficult. Since entry into a retail business isn't overly
difficult, prices would fall again as new companies entered. Finally, Mr.
Gonzalez posits a conspiracy with all the major camera companies. But
such a conspiracy would be contrary to their own interests -- why
concentrate purchasing power in the hands of one retailer when you are
better off with widely disperse distribution and only moderate bargaining
power, such as only that which results from buying in large quantities
(i.e. efficiencies). If B&H were the only buyer (also known as a
monopsonist,they could extract price concessions that went beyond mere
quantity discounts). Anyone who wants to debate this can take it to
email. Bear in mind that I have practiced antitrust law for 27 years and
this is my daily bread and butter (gives me enough $ to buy camera stuff).
goad...@aol.com
With all due repect to everyone. B&H 's prices as well as ours (ADORAMA)
are not set in any way form or whatever. We keep our prices as low as
possible but yet make a legitimate profit. We do not lowball advertise, we
do not bait & switch. As far as film is concerned Adorama chose to serve
the professional photographer by joining Kodak's Pro Products Network
which insures that you get film that Kodak USA stands behind.
Greg N. Karas
Adorama
David Kohn
dkak...@aol.com wrote:
>
> You mail order freaks just don't learn.... Most of the mail order houses
> are selling you "class B" and "Gray Market" products and you probably
> photo industry. If you don't believe me, call Eastman Kodak and ask them
> about B&H photo... Wake up people. When the prices are that much better
> than legit photo stores, don't you think something is fishy?
What is your beef with B & H ?? While I've had my share of raw deals
with some mail order houses (and I've learned my lesson), I have had
consistently excellent customer service and quality from B & H - both
mail order and in person when I'm in New York. My experience is that
their prices are not the bottom, but competitive; used equipment is
rated conservatively; orders are shipped timely; questions and
complaints are handled politely and appropriately.
david kohn
tucson az
Danny Gonzalez
Weinschela,
My 'price domination' theory was presented as a concept for discussion
and, as I bent over backwards making clear, as an indictment of B+H, or
any other party to the camera industry. With that _always_ in mind, your
assertion that :
>> Selling below cost on a sustained basis "to gain
> market share" makes sense ONLY if you can be successful in driving
> everyone else out f the market, after which you could increase prices to
> recoup the losses you suffered. Once you increase prices, you can only
> sustain them (and recapture your losses) if entry into the business is
> very difficult.<<
isn't necessarily true. If the dominant retailer could be sure to have
manufacturer cooperation in pricing parameters, they could 'set' prices
that everyone else in the industry would have to sell above (which, of
course, would guarantee the retailer his larger market share and the
camera companies their profits.) Since both major financial interests are
served by agreed pricing, it's not so farfetched in theory. Further, since
anyone coming into the business would be forced to buy at prices far above
what the 'hugest retailer' sells them for retail, they won't be able to
offer any true competition. The real 'hole' in all this is for the smaller
retailer to buy his inventory from B+H (which will be cheaper on a
per-item basis than carrying inventory) and selling it at a small margin
above that (and offering 'service' as his USP). The reality is, dealers
can't buy from B+H; at least not openly.
Why do you want this discussion to go to email? IMO, understanding the
realities of a market we all depend on is interesting. What's the problem
with speculating as to what drives it?
Both of your other questions are 'self' answering, at least to me. (Read
that the answer to each is so obvious that there isn't really any point)
Danny Gonzalez
In article <19961112140...@ladder01.news.aol.com>,
Ed O'Rourke
>
> Greg N. Karas
> Adorama
If that is the case, how is it that lenses like the Canon L series have
virtually identical prices between stores. I don't have one of your ads
in front of me but many other stores (probably Adorama too) charge
exactly ($1089) what B+H does for the 300 f4L. Not $1088, not $1090.
It is remarkable how similar some of these prices are. I don't imagine
you get together on the phone to set prices but you are pretty clearly
not coming up with the identical prices on the basis of independent
judgements about "fair profit" as you claim. B+H seems to be the trend
setter and the rest of you snuggle in behind.
bandh...@aol.com
<I hope Mr. Posner won't hate me forever for this>
<That said, B+H is in an almost unique position in that they own a
significant percentage of the overall camera market.>
Not to split hairs, but "own" or "earned?" I'd like to think we have it
'cause we work damn hard every day to earn it.
<. the 'vehicle' of this theory would be the practice of 'dumping'
(selling
product at below legitimate manufacturing cost) to gain dominant market
share, and then to slowly raise prices after 'killing off' your existing
competition. >
I'm aware of this economic concept, but it presupposes that the company is
cash rich enough to sustain this type of economic starvation for however
long it takes.
Two factors which should relieve you of this concern are:
1) In the photo mail order industry margins are too slim to make this
economically feasable, and
2) Our suppliers need our competitors as much as they need us, and I'd
guess that in their own economic interest they would exert what influence
they could to prevent such an effort.
<(The manufacturers would have to squeeze off supplies from other outlets>
Frankly though, there's no benefit to the manufacturer, is there?
=======================
Henry Posner/B&H Photo-Video
70550...@compuserve.com
http://www.bhphotovideo.com
bandh...@aol.com
<If that is the case, how is it that lenses like the Canon L series have
virtually identical prices between stores. >
How come the 2-litre bottles of Diet Coke and Diet Pepsi are $1.39 each
at both the A&P and the Grand Union where I shop.
Does this mean Coke and Pepsi are in one consipracy and A&P and GU are in
another? Or are Coke and GU ganging up on A&P and Pepsi? Or is it only
for diet cola and not for root beer?
How come this isn't in the Wall Street Journal?
goad...@aol.com
On that particular lens THE MINIMUM ADVERTISED PRICE is $1089.00 which is
set by Canon, that is why everyone who advertises it legitimately has that
price. WE actually sell it for alot less I can not give the price over the
newsgroup becaus e that would be violating TWO principles one not
advertising below MAP and not doing commercial business on the newsgroup.
If you would like to know our ACTUAL LOW price e-mail us at
goAd...@aol.com
Greg N. Karas
Adorama
John Kramer
> photo industry.
Just what is a class B camera product?? B&H does not advertise the fact
that they sell "imported" but they don`t hide this fact either. This is a
Buyer beware industry. B&H claims to back up there imported stuff with a
B&H warrenty, they did not hide any of this from me, no bait and switch
either. They do sell bonifide US market stuff as well. What really needs
to be pointed out here is to not buy something from mail order blindly.
bandh...@aol.com
<B&H does not advertise the fact that they sell "imported" but they don`t
hide this fact either.>
Actually, our ads and mailers do state, "All items covered by USA, INt'l,
or B&H warranty,"
Also, our sales associates are under orders to volunteer both "USA" and
"Grey market" options whenever both exist, and to volunteer that an item's
"grey market," if it's only available that way. If our sales associate
deosn't mention both possibilities, it means we only have the "USA
warranty" version.