colorizing b/w prints - special paper?
Ric Trexell
She was telling me how they have this stuff now that you can color black and
white prints. (I didn't tell her that she is about 100 years behind the
times.) Anyway would I have to ask the developers to print them on a
certain b/w paper or will any paper due. I'm not really up on this "new
technique" of hand coloring prints. Thanks. I prefer replys to my email
address unless you think others would be interested in this. Ric.
rtre...@vbe.com
Skip
specifically designed for the task, but the likelihood of any lab having
it is pretty slim. It is Luminos RCR ART, you could buy some, and
request that the lab print on what you supply. My wife does a lot of
hand tinting, take a look on her part of our website for some examples,
all printed on RCR Art. BTW, it would be best if you did your own
printing, it is hard to get a lab to print correctly for tinting.
Skip
Shadowcatcher Imagery
http://www.shadowcatcherimagery.com
--
Shadowcatcher Imagery
http://www.shadowcatcherimagery.com
Serial # 19781010
Actually Matte paper will be fine.
I do this hand coloring with marshall's oils and, while it's old
fashioned, it's fun. If you have kids it's a great project.
Just get yoru prints on matte and let her go at it. She'll love 'em
when she's done.
Clyde Soles
> Fiber based paper is what is required,
That's the ideal method. However you can simply spray a glossy RC print
with Marshalls Pre-color spray too. You won't get the saturated colors
that tinting fiber paper can offer (and fine details are tough because
there isn't as much tooth) but it's a good way to start out.
--
DISCLAIMER: Unless otherwise indicated, this post is personal
opinion and NOT an official statement of my employer.
Skip
enough "tooth" to sufficiently hold paint, but pencils work just fine,
she tells me. Of course, some of her work entails putting more paint on
an image than is traditional, she even leaves brush marks on some of
them to leave the impression of a true painting. Her favorite paper is
the Luminos RCR Art, which is an RC paper, but specifically designed for
the addition of color.
Skip
--
Shadowcatcher Imagery
http://www.shadowcatcherimagery.com
Only me...
"Ric Trexell" <rtre...@vbe.com> wrote in message
news:8imgbe$6r...@news.vbe.com...
> My neice wants me to take some b/w's of her kids so she can hand color
them.
> She was telling me how they have this stuff now that you can color black
and
> white prints.
> Anyway would I have to ask the developers to print them on a
> certain b/w paper or will any paper due. I'm not really up on this "new
> technique" of hand coloring prints. Thanks. I prefer replys to my email
> address unless you think others would be interested in this. Ric.
NOT GLOSS!! Matt is horrible anyway, so not that either. I find a
pearl surface best. Ilford Multigrade IV RC Pearl to be precise :-)
David.
Only me...
"Skip" <shadow...@home.com> wrote in message
news:394F7CEC...@home.com...
> Fiber based paper is what is required, there is one resin coated paper
> specifically designed for the task, but the likelihood of any lab having
> it is pretty slim. It is Luminos RCR ART, you could buy some, and
> request that the lab print on what you supply.
Huh? I've been using resin coated papers to do this for ages! The
dyes are absorbed into the emulsion, not the paper. The base is not
important at all. Fibre papers are better, but for hand colouring, the
emulsion is what matters.
David.
Only me...
> My wife has tried matte paper RC paper, and it does not seem to have
> enough "tooth" to sufficiently hold paint,
Paint!! That's why then. The guy's not talking about "painting"
them.. He's talking about using proper photo dyes to colorize a photo. I
wondered why you were saying that Fibre was best. If you were painting on
them, yes, it would be. However, for using proper photo-retouching dyes,
I recommend a pearl surfaced resin coated paper.
David.
Skip
term "hand color" which usually refers to these techniques. Also, he
e-mailed me privately, thanking me for the info, so I think I'm on the
right track. But you've piqued my curiosity, how do you get dyes to
penetrate the resin coating?
Skip
Shadowcatcher Imagery
http://www.shadowcatcherimagery.com
--
Shadowcatcher Imagery
http://www.shadowcatcherimagery.com
Only me...
> I still think he's talking about paint or pencil, notice he used the
> term "hand color" which usually refers to these techniques.
Well, actually, no it doesn't. hand colouring is usually done with
water soluble dyes that are absorbed into the emulsion, and thus renders the
base of the paper quite unimportant. Whether what he wanted to do was paint
it or not, photo dyes are traditionally used, or water colours - both of
which are absorbed into the emulsion. Using an opaque paint will not
colorize anything, you'll just be painting over the photo.
>Also, he
> e-mailed me privately, thanking me for the info, so I think I'm on the
> right track. But you've piqued my curiosity, how do you get dyes to
> penetrate the resin coating?
How do you get the developer to penetrate it??? The same way. The resin
doesn't coat the emulsion side, does it... or you would never be able to
use it. Resin Coated refers to the nature of the base material, not the
emulsion. The emulsion is essentially the same as a fibre based paper.
David.
chmc
"Only me..." wrote:
> "Skip" <shadow...@home.com> wrote in message
> news:3950D9D8...@home.com...
> > I still think he's talking about paint or pencil, notice he used the
> > term "hand color" which usually refers to these techniques.
>
> Well, actually, no it doesn't. hand colouring is usually done with
> water soluble dyes that are absorbed into the emulsion, and thus renders the
> base of the paper quite unimportant. Whether what he wanted to do was paint
> it or not, photo dyes are traditionally used, or water colours - both of
> which are absorbed into the emulsion. Using an opaque paint will not
> colorize anything, you'll just be painting over the photo.
>
As far as I know, oil paint is mostly what people use to hand color photo's. At
least, the class I took in hand tinting had us use oils, and that seemed to be
what was available in the photography stores.
>
> >Also, he
> > e-mailed me privately, thanking me for the info, so I think I'm on the
> > right track. But you've piqued my curiosity, how do you get dyes to
> > penetrate the resin coating?
>
> How do you get the developer to penetrate it??? The same way. The resin
> doesn't coat the emulsion side, does it... or you would never be able to
> use it. Resin Coated refers to the nature of the base material, not the
> emulsion. The emulsion is essentially the same as a fibre based paper.
>
This is true. Resin coated paper just has resin over the paper, not the
emulsion.
Skip
photos are "covered up" or not. Oil paint is often used as a colorant
for photos, that is what they teach in the classes at the local J.C.
I've tried watercolor, with a remarkable lack of success, especially on
RC paper. It doesn't stick. I've never tried dyes, up until now, I
didn't know they existed in that form. My wife started out using
Marshall's photo oils (notice that they are marketed as such, in camera
stores), but discovered that traditional artist's oils gave her as good
results at a much lower price, and gave her a wider palette of colors to
work with. There are several artists in the San Diego area tinting or
coloring photos, and as far as I know, they all use oil paint. Applied
correctly, or thinned, they are not opaque if you don't want them to be!
"Only me..." wrote:
>
> "Skip" <shadow...@home.com> wrote in message
> news:3950D9D8...@home.com...
> > I still think he's talking about paint or pencil, notice he used the
> > term "hand color" which usually refers to these techniques.
>
> Well, actually, no it doesn't. hand colouring is usually done with
> water soluble dyes that are absorbed into the emulsion, and thus renders the
> base of the paper quite unimportant. Whether what he wanted to do was paint
> it or not, photo dyes are traditionally used, or water colours - both of
> which are absorbed into the emulsion. Using an opaque paint will not
> colorize anything, you'll just be painting over the photo.
>
> >Also, he
> > e-mailed me privately, thanking me for the info, so I think I'm on the
> > right track. But you've piqued my curiosity, how do you get dyes to
> > penetrate the resin coating?
>
> How do you get the developer to penetrate it??? The same way. The resin
> doesn't coat the emulsion side, does it... or you would never be able to
> use it. Resin Coated refers to the nature of the base material, not the
> emulsion. The emulsion is essentially the same as a fibre based paper.
>
Only me...
"chmc" <ch...@chmc.org> wrote in message news:39513430...@chmc.org...
> As far as I know, oil paint is mostly what people use to hand color
photo's. At
> least, the class I took in hand tinting had us use oils, and that seemed
to be
> what was available in the photography stores.
We must be talking about different things. Photo dyes that are used to
retouch images are water based dyes that are absorbed into the emulsion.
The same dyes are commonly used to hand tint a photo. Oils will not
penetrate the emulsion layer, and instead will be sat upon it. You CAN do
it that way, but you'll be able to scratch the pain off.
Doing it with proper photo-retouching dyes makes it permanent - it's
absorbed by the emulsion, and can not be washed off/out.
> > How do you get the developer to penetrate it??? The same way. The
resin
> > doesn't coat the emulsion side, does it... or you would never be able
to
> > use it. Resin Coated refers to the nature of the base material, not the
> > emulsion. The emulsion is essentially the same as a fibre based paper.
> >
>
> This is true. Resin coated paper just has resin over the paper, not the
> emulsion.
Yep. The emulsion is sitting on top of a piece of plastic coated paper.
David.
Only me...
> Take a look at my wife's part of our site, and you tell me whether those
> photos are "covered up" or not.
I don't, nor have ever doubted what you say. I've just never heard of
that before. I've only ever seen photoretouching dyes used to hand tint a
photo, as they pigment ends up as part of eth emulsion, and is more
permanent.
I still don't see why you need fibre based paper though, as you're
painting upon the emulsion, not the base. The emulsion is the same
material, whichever base it's upon.
> Oil paint is often used as a colorant
> for photos, that is what they teach in the classes at the local J.C.
Must be something that's common there, but not here. I'm in the UK,
and I've never seen oils used to do that in Europe. I know several artists
that retouch photos, and those that like to "tint" pictures, use
photo-retouching dyes.
> I've tried watercolor, with a remarkable lack of success, especially on
> RC paper. It doesn't stick.
Not on gloss paper it won't, no.
> I've never tried dyes, up until now, I
> didn't know they existed in that form.
Oh yes. You can get a whole range of colours, and they can be used on
any paper. They don't need to "stick" as they're absorbed into the very
emulsion itself. You water them down heavily, and a set of photoretouching
dyes will last a life-time. They're very concentrated. Mine are made by
Photocolor, available through Patersons, the darkroom and chemistry people -
those that make Acutol, and Aculux etc...
> Marshall's photo oils (notice that they are marketed as such, in camera
> stores), but discovered that traditional artist's oils gave her as good
> results at a much lower price, and gave her a wider palette of colors to
> work with
I'll check out her site as soon as poss. I've really only ever seen
dyes used. I suppose it must give the same effect. Doesn't oil paint just
"stick" to the surface though? It can be chipped or damaged I assume.
The dyes can not, as they become part of the emulsion layer.
.> There are several artists in the San Diego area tinting or
> coloring photos, and as far as I know, they all use oil paint. Applied
> correctly, or thinned, they are not opaque if you don't want them to be!
The thought of having paint "stuck" to the photo, rather than absorbed
into it just made me think that the paint was beingapplied over the image,
and therefore obliterating it... never heard of oils being used....
There you go.. you think you've heard it all, and then you realise you
haven't :-)
Tell your wife to check out retouching dyes though... same effect I
should imagine, but more permanent (you can even rewash the print
afterwards).
David.
Mike Lipphardt
Glossy RC papers will not take coloring well - it tends to look
blotchy and uneven if you are not extremely careful. Matte does
better, and Kodak's new(ish) art RC paper does very well.
The paper with the least tooth that seems to take handcoloring
reasonably well for me is Ilford's "pearl" RC.
Mike
On Thu, 22 Jun 2000 07:28:30 GMT, "Only me..." >
Only me...
"Mike Lipphardt" <liph...@oh.verio.com> wrote in message
news:3951f54d....@news.nacs.net...
> The paper with the least tooth that seems to take handcoloring
> reasonably well for me is Ilford's "pearl" RC.
>
> Mike
Surely that depends upon the dyes you use though. I find it odd that
your "worst" paper is my "best". NO one can be THAT mistaken. Having
"Tooth" would have no bearing upon the method I use. The dyes do not have
to adhere to any surface, and are absorbed into the very emulsion itself.
Is this the method you use?
David.
Skip
have a feeling that you are a voice crying in the wilderness. Using
photo dyes to tint/color an image is a completely different process than
the rest of us are talking about. You are right, "tooth" would have no
effect on dyes, so you can safely assume that the conversation is about
using paint or pencils to apply color.
--
Shadowcatcher Imagery
http://www.shadowcatcherimagery.com
Skip
emulsion, when, after a photo is developed, fixed and rinsed, there
isn't a whole lot of emulsion left on the paper, almost none, if any, in
the light area, which, I would think, would be the areas most likely to
be colored. That is why RC paper won't work as well a fiber based for
paint, since, when the emulsion is gone, the resin coating is what the
paint comes in contact with. Is the dye process done before fixing? If
so, how? Or are you talking about retouching flaws in the print?
Because what is being discussed here is adding color to a black and whit
print.
Only me...
> David, how can dyes, used to retouch photos, be absorbed into the
> emulsion, when, after a photo is developed, fixed and rinsed, there
> isn't a whole lot of emulsion left on the paper,
There's exactly the same amount. There's just no silver halide left in
it. The gelatine based emulsion is still there though, or you wouldn't be
able to see the developed silver. The dye is absorbed into it. My hand
tinted photos can be washed even. The dye is within the emulsion.
You must have seen these dyes.... What are you all using to spot your
prints????
> almost none, if any, in
> the light area, which, I would think, would be the areas most likely to
> be colored.
No, the emulsion is still there, it's just that it contains no silver.
> That is why RC paper won't work as well a fiber based for
> paint, since, when the emulsion is gone, the resin coating is what the
> paint comes in contact with.
I'm sorry, but the emulsion is still there on a white part of a print,
whether it;s a resin print or not. The only difference between a light
part of a print, and a dark one, is that the light one has had all the
silver removed by the fixer. The emulsion that suspended the silver halide
is still there. If it was removed, think about it.... gloss papers would
only be gloss on the dark bits, wouldn't they.
> Is the dye process done before fixing?
No, of course not. It's done after the print is processed, and dried,
just as you do. You seem to think the emulsion is "missing" from a
processed print. It's not, whether it's fibre based or resin, the emulsion
is still there after processing. How else are the exposed and developed
silver crystals attached to the paper?
> Or are you talking about retouching flaws in the print?
> Because what is being discussed here is adding color to a black and whit
> print.
Yes, but you can use the retouching dyes that are used to spot prints,
to actually tint them, or paint upon them. After all, their just water
soluble dyes - pigments. Nothing special. The only difference is that they
don't sit upon the paper surface like oils or acrylic paints would, they're
absorbed into the emulsion and are permanent.
David.
Mike Lipphardt
Marshall's oils to color. incidentally, Marshall's also makes pencils
which work OK, but not as well as the oils.
I have never seen dyes - my local Dodds and Cord Camera don't carry
any that I'm aware of. Just oils. That's all our local college uses
too.
For pencils, I have to go mailorder. Used them once and gave up on
them though - the oils are much easier, and give better results.
I'm going to have to try the artists oils as another poster suggested.
Why didn't I think of that? :)
Mike
Only me...
> We just may be talking about different things here. I am using
> Marshall's oils to color. incidentally, Marshall's also makes pencils
> which work OK, but not as well as the oils.
>
> I have never seen dyes - my local Dodds and Cord Camera don't carry
> any that I'm aware of. Just oils. That's all our local college uses
> too.
This is really weird. Everyone here I know uses photo-retouching dyes.
Incidentally, how do you spot your prints? Do you use a dye fro that? IF
so, that's the stuff I'm talking about. You can get all colours too, to
spot colour prints. It's absorbed into eth emulsion, and can not be washed
out. Mine are made by:
Photocolor
Paterson Group International
Stafford Park 1
Telford
Shropshire TF3 3BT
Tel: +44 1952 423300
However, there are loads of different kinds available.
> I'm going to have to try the artists oils as another poster suggested.
> Why didn't I think of that? :)
Because they sit upon the surface, and do not give the same effect as
true photographic dyes. I can't believe you have no idea what I'm talking
about.
David.
Skip
of them, either. Paint and pencils are all that ever get discussed
over here on this side of the pond, at least to any great degree. I
wonder if the address you have on your post would send some technique
info to me? I'll give that a try on Monday.
This has been a rather interesting day.
--
Shadowcatcher Imagery
http://www.shadowcatcherimagery.com
F. Craig Callahan
Skip wrote:
> These things are apparently not avalilable in the US, I've never heard
> of them, either. Paint and pencils are all that ever get discussed
> over here on this side of the pond, at least to any great degree.
http://www.paterson-intl.com/paterson/darkroom/darkroom.htm
near bottom.
From Kodak:
http://www.kodak.com/cluster/global/en/professional/support/techPubs/o3/O3wp4.shtml
and elsewhere
TRANSPARENT WATERCOLORS AND FELT-TIPPED PENS
You can use transparent watercolors and felt-tipped markers to add color to
black-and-white prints.
When using watercolors, dampen the print surface first with a
cotton swab soaked in water. This will allow the watercolors to
be absorbed evenly on the paper surface. Use a brush on small,
detailed areas and cotton swabs on larger areas. Build up color
saturation by applying several layers of color to the same area.
Brush-applied transparent watercolors or felt-tipped pens work
effectively in small, detailed areas of a print where you want to
add color for impact.
KODAK RETOUCHING COLORS
Dry-cake dyes are excellent for applying light colors to large
areas of black-and-white photographs. To apply a dye to a print,
breathe on the cake of dye and then pick up a sufficient amount of
the dye by rubbing a tuft of dry cotton over it. Transfer the
cotton tuft to the print and begin rubbing gently. Rub the cotton
in a circular motion on the desired area of the print. Buff the
area with clean tufts of cotton until the dye is evenly applied.
Remove unwanted dye from surrounding areas in the print by applying
the reducer to those areas with another clean tuft of cotton. Use
a cotton-wrapped skewer or a cotton swab to clean off small areas
adjacent to the colored areas. After wiping off the reducer, hold
the print over steam (boil water in a pot or use an inexpensive
vaporizer) until the surface marks caused by the dye application
disappear. This will make the dyes permanent. If you want to
increase the density of the color saturation, add more dye to the
area and steam the print again. Repeat this procedure until you
obtain the desired color saturation.
KODAK LIQUID RETOUCHING COLOR SET
These ready-to-use colors, designed for retouching color prints
with a brush, work well for hand-coloring small areas on
black-and-white prints. You can apply them with a brush or cotton
swabs to fiber-base or RC papers. If you don't like your results,
just soak the print in running water for a few minutes to dissolve
away the colors. Then dry the print and begin again.
HAND-COLORING PHOTOGRAPHS WITH TRANSPARENT OILS
Transparent oils, such as MARSHALL's Photo Oils, can help you achieve a broad
range of results. They are easy to apply and remove, allow print details to show
through, and are made specifically for use on photographic surfaces.
Wipe the print with a cotton tuft moistened in MARSHALL's P.M. Solution or
equivalent. Dry the print with a clean tuft. Apply small amounts of color with a
cotton tuft or swab, using a circular motion. Rub the color to a thin, even layer
with clean cotton. Remove any stray color using MARSHALL's P.M. Solution or a
kneaded rubber eraser. Clean out the highlights with a dry cotton swab to give
the colored areas more definition. Buff the highlight edges with cotton. When the
print is completely dry, spray several light, even coats of a photographic
lacquer over the finished print.
Liquid Retouching Dyes
Liquid retouching dyes, such as those in the KODAK Liquid Retouching Color Set
(CAT 190 1743), are useful for achieving brilliant hues in small areas. Use
distilled water to premoisten large areas that you plan to color. For small
areas, apply dye using controlled brush strokes or a stippling action. For larger
areas, dilute dyes with distilled water, and use a "wash" or watercolor
technique. Remove liquid dye by wiping it with 5-percent clear ammonia, followed
by distilled water. Apply a final coat of lacquer (optional).
Dry Dyes
Dry dyes, such as KODAK Retouching Colors (CAT 189 0888), are well suited for
coloring large areas and achieving subtle, pastel tones. Dry the print thoroughly
with a hair dryer to remove any residual moisture. Soften the dye cake by
breathing on the cake of dye. Do not use water to soften the cake. Pick up dye
from the cake and apply with a cotton tuft, working in a circular motion, and
covering the area completely. Buff the colored area with clean cotton until the
color is smooth and even. For more definition, remove color from the highlights
using cotton and Remover for KODAK Retouching Colors (CAT 194 6730). Buff to
blend the edges. To set the color, hold the print 6 to 8 inches from a steam
source for 10 seconds, or until the waxy appearance disappears. Remove unwanted
dye before steaming with Remover for KODAK Retouching Colors. Remove it after
steaming with 5 percent clear ammonia. Apply a final coat of lacquer (optional).
Other Coloring Options
There are many color media options, each with a different levels of
colorfastness and ease of use. The following are just a few suggestions.
Experiment, and see what suits your style and subjects best. Use your
imagination.
Pastels-for soft-looking, large-area applications
Opaque oils and acrylics-for a brush-painted look
Pencils-for small details
Felt-tipped markers-for selective color and bold graphics
Oil sticks-for the combined qualities of opaque oils and pastels
Airbrush-for even color with good control
Watercolors-for delicate, luminous color
Food dyes and natural plant dye-for effective, inexpensive color
Artists inks-for a wide range of strong colors
PAPERS
All photographs to be hand-colored should be printed on a matte
surface paper. If you prefer using a resin-coated paper, select
N surface. With fiber-based papers, G, N, and R surfaces are all
good choices. Choosing a paper surface depends primarily on the
subject matter in the photo. Duller surfaces, such as N surface,
absorb the colors better and are better suited to commercial
products, landscapes, and any other subject that can be enhanced
by stronger color saturation. In general, the duller the paper
surface, the greater the color saturation. Experiment with a few
different papers to see how the color hues of the print will differ
on various papers due to their varying tonal properties.
Skip
tinting consultant (my wife) says they dry too fast for easy
manipulation, hard or impossible to blend different colors together,
shading is difficult, in general, paint is easier to work with. Plus,
and I speak from experience here, they can be removed.
Only me...
>Plus,
> and I speak from experience here, they can be removed.
Not the Photocolor ones... I've accidentally ruined too many prints to
vouch for that. I use them to spot colour prints, and when I make a mistake,
I have to throw the print away, as they absolutely do not wash out, at all,
ever :-)
David.
Tony Parkinson
may wish to note that the Paterson group have a Website at
http://www.paterson-intl.com
Hope that helps
-------------------------------------------------
Come to Photocountry
http://www.photocountry.photoshot.com/
-------------------------------------------------
"Skip" <shadow...@home.com> wrote in message
news:39543CB0...@home.com...
> These things are apparently not avalilable in the US, I've never
heard
> of them, either. Paint and pencils are all that ever get discussed
> over here on this side of the pond, at least to any great degree. I
> wonder if the address you have on your post would send some
technique
> info to me? I'll give that a try on Monday.
> This has been a rather interesting day.
Only me...
"Tony Parkinson" <NOSPAMar...@btinternet.com> wrote in message
news:8j2ems$jp6$1...@uranium.btinternet.com...
> Skip, to save you the cost of a transatlantic letter/phone call. you
> may wish to note that the Paterson group have a Website at
> http://www.paterson-intl.com
>
> Hope that helps
I wish they'd put that on the box or something, or get a domain name
without that silly "intl" after it.
David.
Mike Lipphardt
unlike my coloring oils. If oyu have somethign like that, then we ARE
talking about two completely different animals.
I'm with you. Weird.
But it seems to me that handcoloring using something like colored
Spottone would be sort of difficult to control. I like the oils
because if you screw up (not that I ever do, you understand, but
theoretically ;-) it's easy to undo. Of course you have to seal it so
it doesn't get accidentally undone, but the ability to go back and
touch up an area is valuable.
I'll have to start looking for colored dyes. I have a pile of reject
B&W prints to play with. Better to practice on them than throw them
out I suppose. Should be interesting.
Mike
Only me...
> I use Spottone in various densities. It's a thin liquid, completely
> unlike my coloring oils. If oyu have somethign like that, then we ARE
> talking about two completely different animals.
I only use Spotone for spotting. The Photocolor dyes are thicker until
diluted, and can cover much better than the SPotone dyes, which are
basically for mono retouching. The colour dyes are made for tinting.
> But it seems to me that handcoloring using something like colored
> Spottone would be sort of difficult to control.
It's not easy, I'll admit, but the effect is nice. Although it's only a
low-res scan, you can see from that photo I posted, that the dyes can be
used to good effect. I'm not even very good at it.. you wanna see what an
expert can do with them :-)
> I like the oils
> because if you screw up (not that I ever do, you understand, but
> theoretically ;-) it's easy to undo.
That's true. The dyes won;t wash out. You can de-saturate them
slightly, but you'll never wash them out.
> I'll have to start looking for colored dyes. I have a pile of reject
> B&W prints to play with. Better to practice on them than throw them
> out I suppose. Should be interesting.
I think someone posted the Paterson website URL
David.