Which Slide film for photographing art work?
Riceman
work. My searches turned up the suggestion of Kodak 64 or 64T slide
film. I was thinking Provia 100F but I'm wondering if it's too blue? If
so would anyone recommend a warming filter? I'm photographing paintings
for a portfolio and would like the best results possible. Also has
anyone heard of Kodak's colors in the slide film turning over time? How
about Fuji's? Thanks for the input.
Jeremy
Chris Quayle
Kodachrome colour lasts for decades if carefully stored and is very good
for archival IME... Some others fade or colour shift, as can print
film...
Chris
T. P.
I would try Fujichrome Astia ISO 400 - I emphasise the word *try* as I
have never done this type of work. However, something tells me that
Kodak may make a specialist product that is designed for the purpose.
UrbanVoyeur
If the artist plans to use the slides to show galleries & dealers, then any
fine grain chrome will do. Don't worry about what's too blue or to red -
subtle color balances won't matter here. I've use Provia 100 and sometimes
Velvia to punch it up a, but then I also use strobes so I have lots of light
to play with. You can even use a less expensive Sensia as long as its fresh.
Remember - they just want to see the work; perfect color rendition is not
that important.
I you plan to use this for a gallery catalog or invite, then something with
a slightly lower contrast will reproduce better - say an Astia 100. Include
a color chart in the first frame of each roll, and get the same batch of
film. Color corrections can be done in photoshop.
If you plan to use these slide for a serious book, bound catalog or archival
record, if possible, shoot medium format or large. In this case I would use
Provia 100 or a Kodachrome 64, with color charts and at least one roll form
each day's shooting for clip tests at the lab. Also, when your start, shoot
a roll with your set up, have it processed normal, and then correct your
color on the set with gels and correct your exposure before you proceed.
Try to get them colors as close as possible on the set or in lab - it will
make the printer's like much easier. Most pro labs can do +/- 10-20 cc in
any color direction.
Kodachrome will last longer without fading or shifting than any E-6.
"Riceman" <riceman...@rogers.com> wrote in message
news:3D3839D2...@rogers.com...
T. P.
>
>I would try Fujichrome Astia ISO 400 - I emphasise the word *try* as I
>have never done this type of work. However, something tells me that
>Kodak may make a specialist product that is designed for the purpose.
Oops! I hit the wrong key: Astia is ISO *100*.
Skip
success. Excellent color rendition, and low grain.
--
Skip Middleton
http://www.shadowcatcherimagery.com
"Riceman" <riceman...@rogers.com> wrote in message
news:3D3839D2...@rogers.com...
T. P.
>
>Kodachrome will last longer without fading or shifting than any E-6.
But Kodachrome *starts* with a shift. Ektachrome might be a better
bet, but I would stick with my (and your) recommendation of Astia.
EDGY01
work. >>
There is no easy answer to this. You want to avoid films that are already
known for embellishing a bit (like Velvia) or Ektachrome.
My best suggestion is to include a color chart in the shot so that you can
attempt to make corrections down stream.
Dan Lindsay
Santa Barbara
Graphic
national framing company with Provia 100F in 6x6cm with excellent results.
I agree with the other poster below 100%.
Wayne C.
grap...@mindspring.com
"UrbanVoyeur" <nos...@nospam.urbanvoyeur.com> wrote in message
news:zx_Z8.1927$927....@nwrddc01.gnilink.net...
Mxsmanic
"Riceman" <riceman...@rogers.com> a écrit dans le message de news:
3D3839D2...@rogers.com...
Bill Tuthill
Normal recommendations would be EPN, or EPP if you want slightly higher
saturation. Both these Kodak films are more color accurate than Astia,
albeit grainier and less saturated.
T. P.
>T. P. <t...@nomailthanks.com> wrote:
>> I would try Fujichrome Astia ISO 400 - I emphasise the word *try* as I
>> have never done this type of work. However, something tells me that
>> Kodak may make a specialist product that is designed for the purpose.
>
>Normal recommendations would be EPN, or EPP if you want slightly higher
>saturation. Both these Kodak films are more color accurate than Astia,
>albeit grainier and less saturated.
But these emulsions (EPN and EPP) are just normal Ektachrome films. I
suggest that Kodak probably makes a *specialist* emulsion that is
specifically designed for the purpose.
Kodak make literally *hundreds* of specialist emulsions that you will
never see in your local camera shop.
William E. Graham
it strikes me that you would approach it just as if it were
a live scene....If it's got lots of warm colors, i.e.: reds
and yellows, use the Kodak product, and if it's cooler, with
more blues and greens, then go with the Fuji....
"Bill Tuthill" <ca_cr...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:ujr5o3p...@corp.supernews.com...
Bill Tuthill
> I have not done much photography of paintings/art works, but
> it strikes me that you would approach it just as if it were
> a live scene....If it's got lots of warm colors, i.e.: reds
> and yellows, use the Kodak product, and if it's cooler, with
> more blues and greens, then go with the Fuji....
Are you using the same films I'm using? Fuji films have fairly
lousy greens, despite the color on the box. They (including the
currently favorite for film worship, Provia 100F) are especially
poor at rendering olive greens and yellow-highlighted greens that
are so common in areas like California and Italy.
T.P, the reason I mention EPN and EPP is that the Kodak engineer
who hangs out on photo.net recommends them for art reproduction,
and for other difficult color problems like rendering UV-spectrum
blue flowers (Morning Glory, Ageratum, and Bluebells) correctly.
http://www.photo.net/bboard/q-and-a-fetch-msg?msg_id=003OsQ
(Funny remark about Velvia => Purplebells, 100F => Magentabells.)
William E. Graham
> William E. Graham <we...@attbi.com> wrote:
> > I have not done much photography of paintings/art works,
but
> > it strikes me that you would approach it just as if it
were
> > a live scene....If it's got lots of warm colors, i.e.:
reds
> > and yellows, use the Kodak product, and if it's cooler,
with
> > more blues and greens, then go with the Fuji....
>
> Are you using the same films I'm using? Fuji films have
fairly
> lousy greens, despite the color on the box. They
(including the
> currently favorite for film worship, Provia 100F) are
especially
> poor at rendering olive greens and yellow-highlighted
greens that
> are so common in areas like California and Italy.
Ah yes.....The characteristics of different films are
subjective, and one man's dog is another's perfect
film.....But that wasn't my point....I was asking why you
would consider artwork different from any other subject?
IOW, pick your film according to the scene, weather it's a
painting or a "work of God."
Alan Davenport
wrote:
> I'm looking for a good 35mm slide film to use when photographing art
>work. My searches turned up the suggestion of Kodak 64 or 64T slide
>film.
I guess we have to make some assumptions about what you didn't
tell us, so I'll assume you are talking about artwork as in
"paintings." That being the case, I'll also assume you are
very interested in accurate color rendition?
For that, I'd use tungsten film, and 3200K tungsten lights. Just
which tungsten film, is of course a matter of preference.
Bill Tuthill
>
>> I'm looking for a good 35mm slide film to use when photographing artwork.
>> My searches turned up the suggestion of Kodak 64 or 64T slide film.
>
> I guess we have to make some assumptions about what you didn't
> tell us, so I'll assume you are talking about artwork as in
> "paintings." That being the case, I'll also assume you are
> very interested in accurate color rendition?
>
> For that, I'd use tungsten film, and 3200K tungsten lights. Just
> which tungsten film, is of course a matter of preference.
Interesting approach. I know very little about tungsten films, but
heard they are usually less advanced than daylight-balanced films.
Two other lighting methods would be:
1. Take the work of art outdoors on an overcast afternoon
for optimal lighting temperature and even lighting.
2. Indoors, set up two diffused flashes at 45 degree angles
to the surface of the painting.
Riceman
Alan Davenport wrote:
Sorry I should have been more clear. I will be photographing paintings
and yes I would like accurate color rendition. However I will be using
natural sunlight for lighting as I don't own any color balanced lights except
for a pair of Vivitar 283's and a Vivitar 285. I'm looking for a fine grain
color slide film that will render the colors accurately under daylight
conditions. I'll probably take the photos on an overcast day or use window
light and some sort or reflector. My client has also informed me the
paintings contain allot or blues and purples, and, after reading the above
posts I'm wondering if Provia 100F or Astia would render these colors
accurately or is there a Kodak film with fine grain that will pick up the
blues and purples accurately? Someone had suggested E100S, someone else
suggested Kodak EPN and EPP although I don't know where I would find these
for sale. Maybe Kodak directly? Has anyone had experience good or bad with
EPN and EPP films?
T. P.
>
> Sorry I should have been more clear. I will be photographing paintings
>and yes I would like accurate color rendition. However I will be using
>natural sunlight for lighting as I don't own any color balanced lights except
>for a pair of Vivitar 283's and a Vivitar 285. I'm looking for a fine grain
>color slide film that will render the colors accurately under daylight
>conditions. I'll probably take the photos on an overcast day or use window
>light and some sort or reflector.
>
>My client has also informed me
You are doing this for a CLIENT? It's so clear that you lack even the
most basic competence to carry out this job.
Asking questions on here will get you lots of well-meaning answers
from other amateurs who (unfortunately) know little or no more than
you do, but you probably know so little that you cannot even tell.
In the interests of helping you, I suggest that you call Kodak's
advice line. Ask which specialist film they recommend, and why. Also
ask what colour temperature it is designed for, and take advice on CC
(colour correction filters) for the *huge* range of colour
temperatures that can be found in "daylight".
I have no doubt that Kodak will publish guidance notes or even a
booklet on the subject. You will learn much more from reading just
one of its pages than you will in a month of asking questions on here.
Good luck. You appear to need a lot of it.
Riceman
"T. P." wrote:
> Riceman <riceman...@rogers.com> wrote:
> >
> > Sorry I should have been more clear. I will be photographing paintings
> >and yes I would like accurate color rendition. However I will be using
> >natural sunlight for lighting as I don't own any color balanced lights except
> >for a pair of Vivitar 283's and a Vivitar 285. I'm looking for a fine grain
> >color slide film that will render the colors accurately under daylight
> >conditions. I'll probably take the photos on an overcast day or use window
> >light and some sort or reflector.
> >
> >My client has also informed me
>
> You are doing this for a CLIENT?
>
Yes for no money other than the cost of film and processing. Starving artists and
all that....
> It's so clear that you lack even the
> most basic competence to carry out this job.
Thus you indicate I am incompetent...and you are competent in this area of
expertise?
I can carry out this job and have excellent results.
If you have had no experience in this area as you said in your earlier post.
<copy>
(Taken from an earlier post)
>"I would try Fujichrome Astia ISO 400 - I emphasise the word *try* as I
>have never done this type of work. However, something tells me that
>Kodak may make a specialist product that is designed for the purpose."
<end-copy>
(by the way he corrected himself in a latter post, the ISO of Astia is 100)
Then how would you know enough to call me incompetent? What gives you the right to
judge my talents in this area when you haven't even tried this yourself?
>
>
> Asking questions on here will get you lots of well-meaning answers
And quite possibly someone that has already had experience with this.
>
> from other amateurs who (unfortunately) know little or no more than
> you do, but you probably know so little that you cannot even tell.
Again with the derogatory comment. How would you know how much I know about
anything if I am only asking about this **one** specific topic? I wouldn't presume
to say you know very little about something that you have asked a question about
unless you put it in writing. Why then would you presume I know so little that I
cannot even tell?
>
>
> In the interests of helping you, I suggest that you call Kodak's
> advice line.
A sound piece of advice.
> Ask which specialist film they recommend, and why. Also
> ask what colour temperature it is designed for, and take advice on CC
> (colour correction filters) for the *huge* range of colour
> temperatures that can be found in "daylight".
>
> I have no doubt that Kodak will publish guidance notes or even a
> booklet on the subject. You will learn much more from reading just
> one of its pages than you will in a month of asking questions on here.
>
> Good luck. You appear to need a lot of it.
No I don't need luck I'll just use my skill. Granted this is a new area of
photography for me but all you really need is common sense. I can photograph the
paintings with any film and get results. What I came here for was a recommendation
on a slide film that will give me good results or even the **best** results, based
on other peoples experiences. Hence I'd like to hear from people that have done
this or people that have something useful to say. Your advice was appreciated
however your derogatory comments and general snotty attitude are not. "If you
don't have anything nice to say...."
skipcashwell
When my Pop needed photos of his paintings (some were very old masters) for
insurance purposes, I used Ektachrome64 with good results:
1. Moved paintings to an easel in a room with northern light
2. Augmented the incoming light by using full-length mirrors (the ones you
mount on a door) and halogen lights
3. Used a Skylight filter (for slight warming)
Ektachrome runs a little toward the blue spectral band, however the old
paintings were typically dark and in traditional brown-green-red oils. There
were two modern works done with "primary" colors - very bright, very
saturated - and although the slide documented the work, Ektachrome was not
best here for rendering accurate images (again, too blue).
If asked today to do similar documentation, I will choose Supra400 - a more
color balanced (IMO) film, and scan the negatives.
Hope this helps some.
Regards,
Skip Cashwell
Riceman
T. P.
Did you mean "Rebuttal"?
Lisa Horton
>
> Did you mean "Rebuttal"?
I think he meant rebuttle. It's like a rebuttal, but accompanied by
spittle. Kind of an extra emphatic rebuttal:)
Apologies to Riceman. I'm not a spelling cop, but I couldn't resist
this one:)
Lisa
Riceman
William E. Graham
"Riceman" <riceman...@rogers.com> wrote in message
news:3D435E6A...@rogers.com...
Chris Hedley
> I think "rebuttle" is the GB way of spelling "rebuttal".
No, definitely "rebuttal" here as well; I was even sad enough to
check in the NODE to see if there were any alternative spellings,
which there aren't! (Well, except "rebutter" which is an
alternative in legalese, apparently)
Maybe it's time to discuss "lens" vs. "lense" again. :)
Chris.
--
"If the world was an orange it would be like much too small, y'know?" Neil, '84
http://cbh.paunix.org My stuff, including genealogy, other things, etc
http://www.paunix.org SDF Public Access UNIX: UNIX accounts and webspace!
Chris Quayle
>
> (Well, except "rebutter" which is an
> alternative in legalese, apparently)
>
Is that what happens when you don't have enough of the stuff on your
toast ?...
Chris
obakesan
>> >for a pair of Vivitar 283's and a Vivitar 285. I'm looking for a fine grain
>> >color slide film that will render the colors accurately under daylight
>> >conditions. I'll probably take the photos on an overcast day or use window
>> >light and some sort or reflector.
be careful, the colour blance of overcast is considerably different to full
sunlight, so that will fluff up your colour balance
that aside, if you've got the budget, try shooting 2 stocks side by side and see
which you like
I'd try Provia III and Kokak VS 100
I like the look and colour rendition of both ... another suggestion
is take 2 of each shot (if not bracketing) as you can have one for
projection, and one for archive/scanning
saves on reproduction later ;-)
See Ya
--
(when bandwidth gets better ;-)
Chris Eastwood
Photographer, Programmer, Motorcyclist and dingbat
please remove u n d i e s for reply
obakesan
In article <glu09.1754$Mn5.66...@newssvr10.news.prodigy.com>, some kind
human wrote:
>If asked today to do similar documentation, I will choose Supra400 - a more
>color balanced (IMO) film, and scan the negatives.
well since someone has recommended out of the nine dots and suggested negative
film, I'll recommend that you toss in at least a single frame with a colour
chart to help the scanner operator (perhaps yourself) get true colour rendition
assuming you're using a constant lighting for the whole shoot, only one frame
with a colour chart in clear view and lighting will be fine
I also do this with slides too, when shooting in tungsten
Neg will give you some printing advantages over slide, and perhaps result in
less contrast buildup in the darker areas of the material you're shooting.
Chris Hedley
> Is that what happens when you don't have enough of the stuff on your
> toast ?...
No, it's when you drop your[1] toast on the kitchen floor and
discover it's now covered in cat-hair, you rebutter it to
conceal the evidence.
[1] in this case, "your" = someone else's, preferably. :)
Paul Repacholi
> Riceman <riceman...@rogers.com> wrote:
Run, do not walk, and get a copy of the Kodak copying book. Read it
from cover to cover, then read it all again. Get an artist friend to
make up a colour patch set of paints. You want as many as possible,
but as a general run, don't mix them. Then take test shots of it and
see if the colours are acurate. Be esspecially carfull of greens and
some blues.
The reason for using lights, is so you can use a crossed pollarizer
set up and eliminate all reflections. No way you can do that with
sunlight, and some work is too valuable to expose to the sun.
--
Paul Repacholi 1 Crescent Rd.,
+61 (08) 9257-1001 Kalamunda.
West Australia 6076
Raw, Cooked or Well-done, it's all half baked.
EPIC, The Architecture of the future, always has been, always will be.
Karl Winkler
> HiYa
>
>
> >> >for a pair of Vivitar 283's and a Vivitar 285. I'm looking for a fine grain
> >> >color slide film that will render the colors accurately under daylight
> >> >conditions. I'll probably take the photos on an overcast day or use window
> >> >light and some sort or reflector.
>
> be careful, the colour blance of overcast is considerably different to full
> sunlight, so that will fluff up your colour balance
>
> that aside, if you've got the budget, try shooting 2 stocks side by side and see
> which you like
>
> I'd try Provia III and Kokak VS 100
>
> I like the look and colour rendition of both ... another suggestion
> is take 2 of each shot (if not bracketing) as you can have one for
> projection, and one for archive/scanning
>
I'd strongly suggest shooting with floodlights and using
tungsten-balanced film, if at all possible. Or, strobes with daylight
film. This way, your results will likely be much closer to "true"
colors than if you are trying to rely on diffuse daylight, IMHO.
In terms of film choices, I've had excellent luck with Ektachrome 160T
for incandescant lighting, and Astia for strobes.
Riceman
Chris Hedley wrote:
> According to Chris Quayle <ligh...@aerosys.co.uk>:
> > Is that what happens when you don't have enough of the stuff on your
> > toast ?...
>
Riceman
obakesan wrote:
> HiYa
>
> >> >for a pair of Vivitar 283's and a Vivitar 285. I'm looking for a fine grain
> >> >color slide film that will render the colors accurately under daylight
> >> >conditions. I'll probably take the photos on an overcast day or use window
> >> >light and some sort or reflector.
>
> be careful, the colour blance of overcast is considerably different to full
> sunlight, so that will fluff up your colour balance
I'll have to run some tests before hand
>
>
> that aside, if you've got the budget, try shooting 2 stocks side by side and see
> which you like
>
> I'd try Provia III
Hmmm haven't tried this one yet
> and Kokak VS 100
I seem to remember shooting some of this, good film as I recall
>
>
> I like the look and colour rendition of both ... another suggestion
> is take 2 of each shot (if not bracketing) as you can have one for
> projection, and one for archive/scanning
An excelent sugestion.
>
>
> saves on reproduction later ;-)
>
> See Ya
Thanks for the sugestions
Riceman
>
> >
> > I'd try Provia III
>
> Hmmm haven't tried this one yet
>
Wait a second do you mean Provia 100F RDPIII?
obakesan
Yep ... ohh ... and since we're out of the nine dots here, I thought I'd second
the recommendation for the Kodak book for copy work ... its a good read and has
some excellent ideas int it ... even if it is perhaps more pithy than your needs
are right now.
Perhaps tungsten and some polarisers (camera and light source) as also suggested
will be better ( more controlable ) than sunlight ;-)
either use tungsten film, or filters
See Ya
T. P.
The "GB way" of spelling "rebuttal" is "rebuttal".
T. P.
>
>... except "rebutter" which is an
>alternative in legalese, apparently ...
Maybe "rebutter" is a rebuttal that uses mellifluous
words, being the spoken equivalent of "creamy bokeh"?
;-)
Lisa Horton
Maybe he really meant the GWB way of spelling? You know, the one
where malfeasance doesn't have an "S" in it? :)
Lisa
ThomasH
>
> I've done quite a bit of this work and it depends on the end use.
>
> If the artist plans to use the slides to show galleries & dealers, then any
> fine grain chrome will do. Don't worry about what's too blue or to red -
> subtle color balances won't matter here. I've use Provia 100 and sometimes
> Velvia to punch it up a, but then I also use strobes so I have lots of light
> to play with. You can even use a less expensive Sensia as long as its fresh.
> Remember - they just want to see the work; perfect color rendition is not
> that important.
>
> I you plan to use this for a gallery catalog or invite, then something with
> a slightly lower contrast will reproduce better - say an Astia 100. Include
> a color chart in the first frame of each roll, and get the same batch of
> film. Color corrections can be done in photoshop.
>
> If you plan to use these slide for a serious book, bound catalog or archival
> record, if possible, shoot medium format or large. In this case I would use
> Provia 100 or a Kodachrome 64, with color charts and at least one roll form
> each day's shooting for clip tests at the lab. Also, when your start, shoot
> a roll with your set up, have it processed normal, and then correct your
> color on the set with gels and correct your exposure before you proceed.
>
> Try to get them colors as close as possible on the set or in lab - it will
> make the printer's like much easier. Most pro labs can do +/- 10-20 cc in
> any color direction.
>
> Kodachrome will last longer without fading or shifting than any E-6.
But these are very old films, not improved for a long time because
of declining demand. Besides according to Wilhelm book, Kodachrome
fades if exposed to light! This is a paradox. I would go with the
contemporary E6 material and scan for archival purposes. Test all
three offerings Agfa+Fuji+Kodak.
I agree by the way with the observation expressed in this thread that
Provia has problems with green outdoors. Astia has a lower saturation
and is very fine for skin.
Thomas.
>
> --
> J
> www.urbanvoyeur.com
>
> "Riceman" <riceman...@rogers.com> wrote in message
> news:3D3839D2...@rogers.com...
> > I'm looking for a good 35mm slide film to use when photographing art
> > work. My searches turned up the suggestion of Kodak 64 or 64T slide
> > film. I was thinking Provia 100F but I'm wondering if it's too blue? If
> > so would anyone recommend a warming filter? I'm photographing paintings
> > for a portfolio and would like the best results possible. Also has
> > anyone heard of Kodak's colors in the slide film turning over time? How
> > about Fuji's? Thanks for the input.
> >
> > Jeremy
> >
Chris Quayle
>
> >
> > Kodachrome will last longer without fading or shifting than any E-6.
>
> But these are very old films, not improved for a long time because
> of declining demand.
But just because it's old doesn't make it bad or unsuitable for the job
:-). Kodachrome is cabable of good results and it is very stable, but
exposure is critical and can be very difficult to scan for good colour
balance and contrast if even slightly underexposed. For such work, on
the nail exposure to perhaps 1/2 stop over would be the limits, IME.
Best to experiment with this and others under various conditions before
making a final decision.
Chris
UrbanVoyeur
Kodachrome is an established, stable line, therefore predictable, flaws not
withstanding.
Likewise Provia - which is in its 4th generation.(I, II, III and now F) It
may have been around for more than 25 years as a brand name, but the
technology behind the film is as up to date as anyone's. AND it is
predictable and stable.
Yes kodachrome fades when exposed to light. No news there - ALL slide films
fade when exposed to light, some faster than others.
As for greens, well, no film is "accurate" They all distort the color
spectrum in one direction or another. That is why I recommended using
different techniques based on the intended use.
"ThomasH" <her...@attbi.com> wrote in message
news:3D460F19...@attbi.com...
Robert Feinman
who works for an auction house photographing art work.
He has recently switched to a digital back. Using a medium format camera
he gets the resolution he needs and he can adjust the colors "exactly"
in post prcessing. He includes grey scales and color patches to give him
the targets.
The magazine is going to a subscription basis (used to be for qualified
readers only), so if you haven't seen it before you might want to take a
look. http://peimag.com
I don't have any vested interest, just a long-time reader.
--
Robert D Feinman
robertd...@netscape.net
Landscapes, Cityscapes, Panoramic Photographs: http://robertdfeinman.com