Canon 7e or Nikon 80?

[Michelle]

I will be starting a course in photography shortly and need a good 35mm slr
camera. Both the 7e and the N80 are in my price range, but I can't find any
real meaty comparisons on them. Both appear quite good, but I'm new at
this...

...any advise for a newbie?

Mikki

[Chuck Yadmark]

I believe that most people in this newsgroup would agree that neither of
these but rather a fully "manual" camera would be the way to go. When you
take a photography class, you will hopefully learn how to compose
photographs manually, setting up each of the parameters individually instead
of having the camera do it for you. It's an essential skill, and is the
whole point of introductory photography courses. Although it is possible to
manually set these two cameras, it is more difficult (some would argue not
too much more). A fully manual camera would have simple dials on top of the
camera instead of an LCD screen that you have to navigate through. I'm a
computer expert and I still hate those LCD menus

The disagreement in the group will be in what camera to choose.

I am biased towards Nikon and would recommend a used FM, FM2, FE, or FE2
(off Ebay or other), all of which have very easy to use dials and have a
nice metal, solid professional feel and can be had for under 200 bucks,
leaving you room for lens costs- don't forget about lenses! If you
absolutely had to buy new, FM10 which has a cheaper plastic construction

If you think someday you think you will be doing a lot of action
photography, Canon EOS cameras and lenses give you more bang for the buck-
but then you're stuck with the LCD's of course.

Enjoy

Chuck Yadmark
Ann Arbor, MI USA
cyad...@nospam.mediaone.net

"Michelle" <Mich...@nospam.net> wrote in message
news:wCJf7.15926$P15.8...@news1.rdc1.sfba.home.com...

[Ho Joon Lim]

I am pretty much beginner as well (about a month into the photography).
I don't think your choice of those two doesn't really matter because
both of them are great cameras. (I have Elan 7e, btw) I am still
learning a lot and I think what matters for your body choice is the
lens. They have different lens mounts and Canon and Nikon offer
different technology for lenses. As Chuck mentioned, I think Canon is
better for the fast action and stuff. Also what I read from photo.net
(you should check this site out. It is really great web page for
everyone who are interested in photography.) Canon has better technology
in general but Nikon has better optics.

The body doesn't make you a good photographer. It is you. So either of
them are fine. :)

[Hendrik Fleming]

Both the 7e and the N80 are similar, and each one has it's own
advantages/disadvantages.

About a month ago I was also looking at these 2 cameras, and was firmly
intent on buying the Nikon, until I discovered that it does not have
mirror-lockup, and that it does not even have metering when used with manual
lenses (or microscopes, telescopes, anything with T-mounts).

As I intended using the camera on my microscopes and telescopes, those
two points immediately made me choose Canon, but if you are not interested
in doing those kind of things, I think it comes down to personal choice.

Hendrik

"Michelle" <Mich...@nospam.net> wrote in message
news:wCJf7.15926$P15.8...@news1.rdc1.sfba.home.com...

[Tony Spadaro]

As a Canon Elan owner of 9 years my recommendation would probably be pretty
easy to guess. The two cameras are both excellent, and both would serve you
for many many years - it would be hard to "outgrow" either.
You can't really lose. Canon has the technological edge, but the Nikon
has some pretty cool features. One of them is probably going to feel better
in your hand - unless there is some overriding reason to get the other,
that's the one to choose.
Someone suggested that most of the people on this forum would tell you to
get a manual camera. He obviously doesn't read this forum. Most of us use AF
cameras (by fully manual he seems to mean non-AF ), and most of us are aware
that an AF camera can be used fully manually while a mechanical camera
cannot be used in auto mode. You have narrowed your search to two excellent
cameras - don't get sidetracked. Buy one and have a great time with
photography.

--
http://home.nc.rr.com/tspadaro/
The Camera-ist's Manifesto
a Radical approach to photography.
Or thrill to sights you've never seen before all that often
Chapel Hill artist Tony Spadaro's Home page
http://tspadaro.homestead.com/Home.html

"Michelle" <Mich...@nospam.net> wrote in message
news:wCJf7.15926$P15.8...@news1.rdc1.sfba.home.com...

[Severi Salminen]

> too much more). A fully manual camera would have simple dials on top of the
> camera instead of an LCD screen that you have to navigate through. I'm a
> computer expert and I still hate those LCD menus

I have Eos 30, and you don't have to "navigate through LCD" to set up aperture
and shutter speed, or exposure compensation. That information is (obviously)
allways displayed, so it's not _that_ hard with these new automatic cameras...

Severi

[Chuck Yadmark]

Okay, maybe most people wouldn't suggest a manual camera, but
I do read this forum, and I certainly am aware and even commented in my post
that you can use an auto camera in full manual mode.

I was aware that most people use AF cameras. I use an F4 and N80 when doing
action photography, but when shooting landscapes I like to pull out my old
F2 because you don't really need anything more. Her question wasn't "Do
most of you use AF cameras?" Obviously one question on her mind was "what's
a good camera for my photography class?"

My point was that she is a beginner in photography and when learning
photography, it's likely easier to learn the use of the camera and thus
photography principles when the instruction book isn't 200 pages long and
has dozens of settings embedded in as many menus. You get less intimidated
when the two controls are just the aperture ring and shutter speed dials.

I'm just point out alternatives, some that could save some money to boot.

[slrguy]

My daughter of 30 years recently decided to take a photography class and
asked the instructor what kind of camera he would recommend. He said the
brand was not important as long as it was not automatic. Having his students
all have manual cameras guarantees that when he looks at a students work he
knows where that student is on the learning curve. He also said that not all
his students take his advice but those that do generally end up with a
better grasp of photography.

So, I got her a Minolta SRT102 w/50mm F1.4 lens from ebay. I've long tried
to explain F stops and shutter speeds to her before but her eyes just seemed
to glaze over. Now that she is forced to use a camera that has an actual
aperture ring, shutter speed dial and manual focus, she is getting the
concepts and is actually quite excited about this new found enlightenment.

I suppose if you are a self disciplined individual and promise yourself you
will not use the auto everything settings for your class then any modern
camera with manual settings will work fine. You also will not have to invest
in an older camera that you may not use after the class is over.

"Michelle" <Mich...@nospam.net> wrote in message
news:wCJf7.15926$P15.8...@news1.rdc1.sfba.home.com...

[Robert and Leigh Woerner]

My advice is to go manual and get a Pentax K1000(beefy and heavy) or a
ZX-M(light and new) or an old Nikon such as a Nikkormat FT2. I think you'll
get more out of photography as a beginner with one of these. You can
"upgrade" to autofocus/auto-exposure later.

Most importantly----HAVE FUN!!!

Robert

"Michelle" <Mich...@nospam.net> wrote in message
news:wCJf7.15926$P15.8...@news1.rdc1.sfba.home.com...

[Lisa Horton]

Well the problem is that these are both excellent cameras, making the
choice difficult.

As others have mentioned, a manual camera will force you to take more
complete control over the process, while an auto camera would allow
you to use the automation as a crutch. As long as you have the self
discipline to do everything manually, a modern Auto camera may be more
to your liking after the course is complete.

While not personally experienced with the very nice N80, I do use an
Elan 7 and find it very easy and convenient to operate in manual
mode. Your aperture and shutter speed settings are displayed in the
viewfinder and the dials to control those settings are easy to reach
and operate with the camera at your eye. For me this makes the Elan 7
easier and faster to operate in manual mode than a manual camera with
a traditional control layout. But manual focussing is easier with a
camera designed for it with traditional focussing aids like a
split-image or microprism.

I feel that the Elan 7e's Eye Controlled Focus and extremely quiet
operation put it a notch over the N80, but I'm a Canon shooter and
thus biased. Canon's selection of lenses offers some advantages that
Nikon's doesn't, like faster quieter focussing on many lenses (with
USM focussing motors) and a broad selection of lenses with IS (Image
Stabilization) that reduce the effects of camera shake at slower
shutter speeds.

Lisa

[Daniel ROCHA]

Lisa Horton <Li...@lisahorton.net> a écrit dans le message :

> Canon's selection of lenses offers some advantages that
> Nikon's doesn't, like faster quieter focussing on many lenses (with
> USM focussing motors) and a broad selection of lenses with IS (Image
> Stabilization) that reduce the effects of camera shake at slower
> shutter speeds.

Also, the N80 do not manage high speed synch with external flashes.
It count too.

--
<°+°> PhOTo <°+°> GrAPhiSMe <°+°>
Portail : http://perso.magic.fr/drocha
Groupe français Canon EOS :
http://www.groups.yahoo.com/group/canoneos_fr/

[Tony Spadaro]

Your point is taken and I disagree with it completely. You are not even
really recommending a manual camera, but only a camera that is as manual as
the one YOU learned upon. Any camera that can be used manually without
hassle is perfect for learning, as I have learned through years of teaching
photography. A "fully manual" camera is never going to do the job your N80
or F4 will do - why deny a beginner the ability to get those shots?
Perhaps I should have recommended Canon instead of Nikon - Canon manuals
are pretty straight forward and one can learn how to control the camera in
seconds. There are some fancy settings but nothing anyone ever has to bother
with (I usually don't myself) If modern Nikons take a 200 page manual and it
has to be studied like fluid dynamics to run the camera, then Nikon would be
a bad choice for beginners.
Somehow I don't think this is what is happening though. I think you worry
too much about it. Perhaps with the N70 this was true - but Nikon has buried
that particular mistake.

--
http://home.nc.rr.com/tspadaro/
The Camera-ist's Manifesto
a Radical approach to photography.
Or thrill to sights you've never seen before all that often
Chapel Hill artist Tony Spadaro's Home page
http://tspadaro.homestead.com/Home.html

"Chuck Yadmark" <cyad...@nospam.mediaone.net> wrote in message
news:jaMf7.10317$_q.1...@typhoon.mw.mediaone.net...

[Tony Spadaro]

And the instructor probably gets a kickback from the local used shop too.
At UNC - the local college in my town, they ent out Elan IIs for the
beginning photography course - this is not a gut course, but an important
pre-requisite for the journalism courses.
Full manual controls are needed, but "I can tell where a student is
currently" is a complete bull answer. I can teach just about anyone how to
get good exposure with a camera in an hour - 2 max. I can't teach focus -
you can either see well enough to focus or your can't. What is this guy
actually testing when he looks at the prints. If it's out of focus does he
say - "You might try turning the ring until the subject looks sharp"?
There are teachers who do insist on full manual control - not just
photography teachers - I'm talking about the type of teacher who wishes to
fully control his students. Usually they are not very good teachers, but
bully wannabees who never had the physical size to intimidate. The best rule
is to never get into their classes, or get out fast if you do make the
mistake of landing in one. If you are stuck with the class you just have to
put up with them and go your own way "I couldn't get that F2 you recommend -
my dad wouldn't hear of it after he paid so much for this Elan". Always give
them the answer they want, and try to get as much out of the class as
possible, while looking for better sources of information. Get the mark, and
get out.

--
http://home.nc.rr.com/tspadaro/
The Camera-ist's Manifesto
a Radical approach to photography.
Or thrill to sights you've never seen before all that often
Chapel Hill artist Tony Spadaro's Home page
http://tspadaro.homestead.com/Home.html

"slrguy" <slrguy...@bellsouth.net> wrote in message
news:RiMf7.4675$yK4.2...@e3500-atl2.usenetserver.com...

[Dan R.]

> photography. A "fully manual" camera is never going to do the job your N80
> or F4 will do - why deny a beginner the ability to get those shots?

No question that all the features of moden cameras can be valuable, but do you
really think they take better pictures, or did I miss your point? Lens, film,
shutter speed, and apature determine the picture, no?

Dan

[MarkTuccillo]

That was pretty harsh and unfair and I disagree with you.. When my daughter took
photography in high school, the teacher strongly suggested a manual SLR,
although she did not want anyone to have to but one if the family had something
else already. Some kids used point and shoots. My daughter used my FE2, and is a
better photographer for it. It really taught her the inverse relationship
between shutter speeds and aperture much better then auto-exposure could have.
Manually focusing taught her to think about where she wanted the attention to
be. As she would focus, she was thinking about composition as she brought
different parts of the image in and out of focus. "Cool" was often muttered as
she played with the 105 micro and experimented with various focal points and
depth of fields. On this subject you are completely off base. Just because UNC
gives out Elans does not make it correct.

[MarkTuccillo]

Both are great cameras supported by great lenses and flashes. IMHO the
differences come down to the Elan7 having mirror lock up and the N80 having a
spot meter. Of the two, the spot meter is far more useful.

[Tony Spadaro]

And so can AF or AE determine whether you get the shot or go home with
some film left over.

--
http://home.nc.rr.com/tspadaro/
The Camera-ist's Manifesto
a Radical approach to photography.
Or thrill to sights you've never seen before all that often
Chapel Hill artist Tony Spadaro's Home page
http://tspadaro.homestead.com/Home.html

"Dan R." <daric...@yahoo.spamnot.com> wrote in message
news:bp%f7.37871$vW2.17...@news1.sttln1.wa.home.com...

[Tony Spadaro]

In what way dif it show here that relationship that your F100 could not?
As to the rest it's obviouls to me that a camera with stop down metering
should have been insisted upon by the instructor - so that DOF would also be
taken into consideration. Without stop down metering when you are learning
you will never have good dof coverage.
Of course it's essential that the camera not have a film advance lever
either. The film advance lever encourages the student to waste film. Much
better to have a hard to use knob - that way you save teh shot for exactly
the right moment.
It's all a waste of effort however unless you can develop each plate
individually to the exact density and contrast as is needed for the shot. So
therefore every student should have at least a flatbed view camera - a
monorail would be better but we must make allowances for those on a tight
budget.
Six months study of the Zone system should suffice before the student is
allowed to make his/her first exposure.
If the teacher is not on the take from the camera shop then he is too
stiff necked and hidebound to be of much use in learning anything beyond the
basics - I like a teacher who allows Point and Shoots - it shows people that
equipment does not a photographer make. I always worked with what the
student owned too, but I have to admit it's a lot easier to teach with an
SLR - consequently I usually ended up standing around watching my students
shoot with my camera.
One of my ex-students was the photo editor of a mid sized city daily
newspaper the last time I talked to her. She went from me to the tech school
in the next county where she learned how to use all sorts of cameras - and
where they never once objected to her Elan.
A fully manual camera is valuable for about one hour when it comes to
learning photography. Any good AF camera can be used manually - or at least
as manually as needed. My Elan could even do stop down metering with T mount
lenses. No individual plates though - it's a shame so many people waste
money on photography courses when they are obviously not going to get
anything out of them. There's no hope without a Burke and James - none
whatsoever.

--
http://home.nc.rr.com/tspadaro/
The Camera-ist's Manifesto
a Radical approach to photography.
Or thrill to sights you've never seen before all that often
Chapel Hill artist Tony Spadaro's Home page
http://tspadaro.homestead.com/Home.html

"MarkTuccillo" <mtucc...@home.com> wrote in message
news:3B808E94...@home.com...

[Tony Spadaro]

Of the two the ability to use T mount lenses and support of stop down
metering is obviously the more important.

--
http://home.nc.rr.com/tspadaro/
The Camera-ist's Manifesto
a Radical approach to photography.
Or thrill to sights you've never seen before all that often
Chapel Hill artist Tony Spadaro's Home page
http://tspadaro.homestead.com/Home.html

"MarkTuccillo" <mtucc...@home.com> wrote in message

news:3B808FD9...@home.com...

[Allen Browne]

Hi Mikki. You really can't go wrong with either of these cameras.

The advice to "buy a manual camera" makes no sense to me. These 2
cameras give you the best of both worlds. With either one, you can
(and will) manually set a shutter speed and aperture to match your
creative lighting, manually focus and compose a still subject, and
get precisely controlled results. Another day, you will relax and
let the camera work for you. Over time, you will build up an under-
standing of when you can trust the camera to get what you want, and
when to take charge and move outside its limitations.

The lenses might be more important than the camera. In years to come,
yo will upgrade youur camera body, but you will be committed to the
collection of lenses you build up. (I've just bought the 7e as I have
a number of EOS lenses.)

[Matt Smolka]

I have an old Pentax SP 1000 camera from 1969. It works beautifully, and was
the first camera I'd ever used. Did I mention, I'm only 18? Being young
invites us to learn new concepts and experiment. Point-and-Shoot cameras are
great for what they do (P&S).

Right now, I've had about 8 years of experience working with the SP1000, and
am only now concidering looking at an AF camera - the only reason: film
advancement and shutter speed. I can't possibly get 2.5-4 fps from an SP
1000.

Having never really used a Nikon or Canon, the choice is going to be
determined by feel, as someone suggested. They both have similar features in
most respects, and both are excellent SLRs.

Maybe I'll invest in a photography course with my SP1000.

Matt Smolka

"Robert and Leigh Woerner" <LEI...@prodigy.net> wrote in message
news:eRSf7.995$AY5.20...@newssvr17.news.prodigy.com...

[Matt Smolka]

I have an old Pentax SP 1000 camera from 1969. It works beautifully, and was
the first camera I'd ever used. Did I mention, I'm only 18? Being young
invites us to learn new concepts and experiment. Point-and-Shoot cameras are
great for what they do (P&S).

Right now, I've had about 8 years of experience working with the SP1000, and
am only now concidering looking at an AF camera - the only reason: film
advancement and shutter speed. I can't possibly get 2.5-4 fps from an SP
1000.

Having never really used a Nikon or Canon, the choice is going to be
determined by feel, as someone suggested. They both have similar features in
most respects, and both are excellent SLRs.

Maybe I'll invest in a photography course with my SP1000.

"Robert and Leigh Woerner" <LEI...@prodigy.net> wrote in message
news:eRSf7.995$AY5.20...@newssvr17.news.prodigy.com...

[Hendrik Fleming]

I agree...for microscopy and telescopy the Canon is the only choice..
Hendrik

"Tony Spadaro" <tspa...@ncmaps.rr.com> wrote in message
news:7a1g7.143056$J37.36...@typhoon.southeast.rr.com...

[leicaddict]

"Michelle" <Mich...@nospam.net> wrote in message news:<wCJf7.15926$P15.8...@news1.rdc1.sfba.home.com>...

I would recommend a Voigtlander Bessa-R with a 50mm/f1.5 Nokton. This
combination is easily the equal of anything out there and better than
99% of all camera/lens combinations. The cost will be esentially what
either one of these AF bodies and a lens would be. Especially if
you're going to start doing b&w lab work. The only step up from the
Voigtlander is the Leica M.

[Mike Lipphardt]

Umm, the poster DID specify an SLR, and most course require SLRs, or at
least strongly encourage them.

In addition to the two you are looking at, have a gander at the Minolta
Maxxum 5.

Instead of reinventing the wheel, go to www.photo.net. There are two very
good reviews on the cameras you are considering there - the N80 review is
linked to on the front page, and the review contains a link to the Canon
review. The upshot though is the Nikon is the better of the two cameras
based on AF ability - everything else is similar, performance-wise.

The Maxxum 5 is new, so information is scantly at the moment, although those
who own it are very favorably impressed.

Mike

"leicaddict" <leica...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:2844ee43.0108...@posting.google.com...

[MarkTuccillo]

It's hard to tell if you are serious or not. Sure the F100 could have been used,
but the temptation to just go fully automatic would have been too great,
invalidating what the teacher was trying to stress. I do not believe someone can
learn the elements of exposure in two hours without actually twisting the knobs.
Furthermore, if someone was buying an SLR, then a manual is significantly less
expensive. A good analogy would be the use of calculators in grade school. Why
bother teaching long division when in real life one will use a calculator or
spread sheet. When I was teaching under-graduate digital signal processing a few
years ago, I disallowed the use of MathCad or MatLab for calculating Fourier
series, because I wanted the students to crank the functions by hand instead of
using the built in functions. In real life, one would not perform such
calculation by hand but write a program or use an off the shelf software
package. But at least they would have had a chance to look under the hood to see
the dynamics of the function. The HS teacher had a BA in photography and a MA in
teaching and felt that manual was the best teaching tool. Let the kids make a
few mistakes and see what happens. The teacher was the professional and felt
that the fully automatics were useful, such as calculators are for math, but not
for learning photography. Both of us learned on manuals and are better for it.

Mark

[Tony Spadaro]

How do you set the exposure manually on an electronic camera? By twisting
the knobs - Right? In an hour or two of knob twisting, a little
conversation, and a bit of play with a grey card I can teach anyone of
average intelligence enough about exposure to pass the test (ie: make
pictures). Why does anyone need to have a "manual" camera for that? Can you
not set your F100 manually? Even your F70 was capable of manual exposure
setting, was it not?
This temptation bit strikes me as a pretty punky reason to go out and
buy a camera just to learn upon - especially when it's value as a learning
tool goes down the tubes in one lesson, afterwhich it's simply a camera
without full capability.
Furthermore, I don't think anyone who is volunteerly learnign
photography is going to "cheat". That's just good old American puritanism.
Whooo don't tell your kids about birth control - they'll go sex mad.
My experience has been the opposite. The reason why someone takes
photography lessons is to learn how the camera works. Most people are strong
enough to stick to their plan. They don't fall into that morass of sin and
degradation - the EF modes. And if they should fall into that bad habit - so
what? Don't you ever put the camera in shutter priority or aperture priority
mode and bang away? I do. I don't feel my soul is condemned to 50 years of
purgatory for every AE shot though - I sure hope it isn't:

You calculator bit does not hold up - since you CAN set exposure manually
with any AF camera worth owning.
You no more learned on a manual camera than I did. We both learned on
near state of the art equipment for the era when we learned. The fact that
that equipment is now old, does not make it "manual" it merely makes it -
old. Did your first camera have an automatic diaphragm? A fully manual
camera does not have a cocking shutter that also advances the film - you
have to change the holder, and remember to close the lens before you pull
the dark slide.
My points about stop down metering is in fact more valid than any of the
"you must have a mechanical camera business". Stop down metering taught me
what the dof preview is all about. There are a lot of people out there now
who have no idea how to use dof preview, or even why knowing the dof of a
shot is useful. Wide open metering, combined with elimination the dof
preview button created a generation of pehotgraphers who have lost an
important tool in the SLR arsenal. The number of pictures I see where
everything is in focus, subject, background, everything in between, is an
indication that not enough people know how to use dof preview.
I find it hard to believe you think a manual camera is less expensive
than an electronic one. What is the price of an FM3a? - I do believe the
list is higher than that of an N80. So buy used instead - but with what
sort of guarantee that the camera even works properly? I know what happens
when a tyro walks into many camera stores - they become chum for the sharks.
Many camera salesmen make used car salesmen look like St. Francis.
Even then - the current price of a used (and possibly as much as 22 years
old)K1000 - as lowly a piece of equipment as you are going to find that is
not plain junk - is about 200 dollars. It has no dof preview, no self timer,
it's just a stripped down cheapy. I wouldn't pay 50 bucks for one, and I
wouldn't buy one without a money back guarantee, and I sure as hell wouldn't
send a beginner off to buy one without I came along and checked it out - and
it still could freeze up three days after the one month (or whatever)
guarantee runs out.
If I could get a halfway decent mechanical camera for significantly less
than the price of an electronic camera, I would have one, probably with a
50mm lens on it. The fact is, it would be a significant investment to get
one that I could rely upon. Reliable mechanical cameras don't come cheap -
there are too many expensive metal linkages to expect any bargains.

--
http://home.nc.rr.com/tspadaro/
The Camera-ist's Manifesto
a Radical approach to photography.
Or thrill to sights you've never seen before all that often
Chapel Hill artist Tony Spadaro's Home page
http://tspadaro.homestead.com/Home.html

"MarkTuccillo" <mtucc...@home.com> wrote in message

news:3B81B3C0...@home.com...

[MarkTuccillo]

As always, you make some very good arguments for your point. When my daughter
"discovered" the A setting on the FE2, she started using it instead of full
manual. If the automation is there they will use it, and often not realize what
is really going on. The whole idea is more then just "making pictures", but to
learn real control. With the F100 I find myself in full auto far too often,
there are many times I should really go manual, but I have really gotten lazy.
This is one of the reasons I own the F100, it will go full auto and produce
results I can live with. With students, the temptation is even greater, and
learning is the looser. As my adviser in grad school liked to say, " learning is
inversely proportional to technology".

I guess I agree with your argument about buying a new manual just for learning,
but there are plenty of great used bargains out there. My daughter's boyfriend
needed a camera for the course last year, his family only used disposables. I
found on eBay a Yashica FR with a 50mm f1.4 for $50, and it is a pretty good
basic camera, a hell of a bargain, and took extremely good pictures. It had DOF
preview, match LED metering and nice all metal construction. Both shutter speed
and aperture displayed in the viewfinder. The FR allowed him to learn the
dynamics of photography. The alternative was a $50 P&S, the budget his parents
gave him, with which he would have learned very little. Two years latter he is
still using it and it is still going strong.

I agree with you about stop down metering, my first SLR was a Yashica TL-Super,
given to me when I was about 12. Depressing the meter switch gave you DOF
preview, but made the meter needle very hard to see in anything but bright
daylight. Wide open metering was a significant improvement since it made the
meter much more readable.

I think that there are some very good bargains on eBay, if one looks carefully.
The venerable FM can be had in user condition for about $100-120 if one is
patient. Minolta SRT-101's abound, and there are many others. A guy I work with
( there are a lot of camera nuts at work ) just picked up a eBay FM to replace
the one that broke for less then what it would have cost to fix the old one.

[Tony Spadaro]

There is where I have to disagree strongly - The whole idea IS to make
pictures! There are no prizes and no gallery space, no career path for being
the best camera operator in the world - Pictures are all that count. Nobody
tells Art Wolfe they are not buying this one bacause he used AE automation
or AF.
If you think it's lazy to use the automation - then perhaps you ought ot
switch to that FM2. You are the one that's bothered by the automation so
maybe it ain't right for you.
If you can come up with a good camera for 50 bucks - that's fine - I
have no objection - manual auto, whatever - at 50 bucks a working SLR is a
bargain. Most of the people I meet with cameras they bought used are not so
lucky. Perhaps ebay will change that factor - but I still have serious
qualms about recommending a used camera without seeing the specific camera.
That's the big drawback of the usenets. I know the bargians at my local
shop, I'm pretty sure KEH's ratings can be trusted. But I don't know how a
camera I've never seen is going to work, and I don't know if a person I've
never actually met is going to be able to come up with a good camera for a
good price. I think a lot of other people feel that way too, consequently
used cameras are rarely recommended.

--
http://home.nc.rr.com/tspadaro/
The Camera-ist's Manifesto
a Radical approach to photography.
Or thrill to sights you've never seen before all that often
Chapel Hill artist Tony Spadaro's Home page
http://tspadaro.homestead.com/Home.html

"MarkTuccillo" <mtucc...@home.com> wrote in message

news:3B81EF0E...@home.com...

[David Littlewood]

In article <gGkg7.152714$J37.38...@typhoon.southeast.rr.com>, Tony
Spadaro <tspa...@ncmaps.rr.com> writes

>Don't you ever put the camera in shutter priority or aperture priority
>mode and bang away? I do. I don't feel my soul is condemned to 50 years of
>purgatory for every AE shot though - I sure hope it isn't:

You raise an interesting challenge here. IMO, using Tv or Av with good
knowledge is no different from using M. I have mostly used Tv (largely
because I grew up with a Canon AE-1) but I always juggle the shutter
speed until I get exactly the right balance of shutter speed and
aperture that I want. It is really just the same as using M but only
needs one finger

>
> You calculator bit does not hold up - since you CAN set exposure manually
>with any AF camera worth owning.
> You no more learned on a manual camera than I did. We both learned on
>near state of the art equipment for the era when we learned. The fact that
>that equipment is now old, does not make it "manual" it merely makes it -
>old. Did your first camera have an automatic diaphragm? A fully manual
>camera does not have a cocking shutter that also advances the film - you
>have to change the holder, and remember to close the lens before you pull
>the dark slide.

Actually my first camera was a pocket 127 job with a mechanical vignette
aperture, no meter and absolutely no interlocks whatever. How can you
claim to learn photography if you get a camera that stops you learning
to wind the rewind handle between each exposure? Well, actually, quite
easily, IMO (but if you move on to LF later, you'll learn it anyway).

[Note large quantity of old stuff snipped - hint hint!]
--
David Littlewood

[Tony Spadaro]

David Littlewood" <da...@nospam.demon.co.uk> wrote in message
news:GEDH3NBt...@dlittlewood.demon.co.uk...

> [Note large quantity of old stuff snipped - hint hint!]

Shouldn't that be - nudge nudge?

[David Littlewood]

In article <jyAg7.155060$J37.38...@typhoon.southeast.rr.com>, Tony
Spadaro <tspa...@ncmaps.rr.com> writes

>David Littlewood" <da...@nospam.demon.co.uk> wrote in message
>news:GEDH3NBt...@dlittlewood.demon.co.uk...
>> [Note large quantity of old stuff snipped - hint hint!]
>
> Shouldn't that be - nudge nudge?

Know what I mean? Know what I mean?
--
David Littlewood

[MarkTuccillo]

Not the first time and not the last, I'm sure. I agree that the whole idea is
making pictures, but I believe that a good basic exposure ( not pun intended )
to manual photography will make one better. Just my opinion. And the opinion of
a professional teacher. As for the FM2, I said that there are times I should go
manual, the results would be better, I would be forced to think about the
exposure more. I suspect that would be the case with you also. As for used
bodies, if the seller has a good feedback rating and will take it back if not
satisified, then the risk is not too great. I have bought two bodies from eBay,
a Nikon EM ( $75 with a 50mm f1.8 ) and the FR. Perhaps I am luckey, but both
have worked out OK.

[Philip Bonner]

I started out in '73 with a manual exposure control Yashica TL Electro-X
SLR. Since then I have gone through a couple of Nikon "E" type auto exposure
cameras and now have a Canon EOS 630 and Contax T3.

My early training with the manual Yashica causes me to, (time permitting),
always use the Tx and Av modes and adjust aperture/depth of field/speed to
best optimize the camera to capture the best image.

I doubt if I would be so insistent on using the Tx and Av modes had I not
first been so well-accustomed to it and it's benefits by virtue of starting
with a fully manual camera.

--
pb

"David Littlewood" <da...@nospam.demon.co.uk> wrote in message
news:GEDH3NBt...@dlittlewood.demon.co.uk...

[Tony Spadaro]

At the moment I'm determining exposures I will use when I go back to a few
places I shot the other night - I ran a quicky test on them with the lens
set at f2. One spot will be a bracket around 16 minutes at f8 another couple
places will be in the 30 second range at f11. I will still be bracketing,
but not as widely, and not nearly as many shots.
I most likely do a much higher percentage of manual exposures than most
owners of auto-cams, since I do only night photography for about 1/4 of the
year.
Be hard to miss with a 75 dollar camera with a 50 f1.8 on it. I'm not an
ebay type. I used to buy a lot of things at real auctions and found that
even where people could see the stuff before bidding they would go mad over
things and pay far too much. I can remember seeing Raleigh made 3 speed
bikes that went for 100 dollars new going for 150 in un-ridable shape, cheap
Japanese guitars (back when they were garbage) going for Martin prices, and
Speed Graphics - I was always trying to get myself a Speed Graphic, but they
would go for twice the price of ones used in stores - despite holes in the
bellows, and other serious problems.

--
http://home.nc.rr.com/tspadaro/
The Camera-ist's Manifesto
a Radical approach to photography.
Or thrill to sights you've never seen before all that often
Chapel Hill artist Tony Spadaro's Home page
http://tspadaro.homestead.com/Home.html

"MarkTuccillo" <mtucc...@home.com> wrote in message

news:3B831ED7...@home.com...

[MarkTuccillo]

I really like your night work, I'll have to start checking your web site more
often. I looked for a really cheap knock around for a few months. I almost
bought a Spotmatic a few times, but they are getting really old. There were
about 15 EM's on eBay once, supply exceeded demand, and I got a good deal on a
nearly unused one. The buyer had great feedback and offered to pay shipping back
if I was unhappy. Usually there is just a lot of overpriced junk.

[Tony Spadaro]

I have a strong desire for a Spotmatic too - but they are OLD. No
batteries, and I fear getting springs etc. would be a real problem. I
wouldn't mind having one on my shelf of broken dreams (aka the camera
collection).
Glad you like the night stuff. I revise the site quite often (about a
page a week). Its not always Noctonaut stuff though. I also have to do a
fair amount of re-working. The site looks fine on my wife's monitor, but a
lot of pictures come up washed out on others. I'm sort of bouncing around
from computer to computer, making notes of what works well on everything,
then I'll re-do everything to those.

--
http://home.nc.rr.com/tspadaro/
The Camera-ist's Manifesto
a Radical approach to photography.
Or thrill to sights you've never seen before all that often
Chapel Hill artist Tony Spadaro's Home page
http://tspadaro.homestead.com/Home.html

"MarkTuccillo" <mtucc...@home.com> wrote in message

news:3B84676E...@home.com...

[MarkTuccillo]

If you want to see some available light shots I did of a church play last
Easter, check out:

http://www.st-thomas-play.org/2001_play_pictures_hq.htm

Mark

[G.]

LEI...@prodigy.net writes:
>My advice is to go manual and get a Pentax K1000(beefy and heavy) or a
>ZX-M(light and new) or an old Nikon such as a Nikkormat FT2. I think you'll
>get more out of photography as a beginner with one of these. You can
>"upgrade" to autofocus/auto-exposure later.
>
>Most importantly----HAVE FUN!!!

I just got a ZX-M this year and, as a beginner, I would recommend it
to another beginner, not forgetting what others have said about trying
it out first to see if you like the way it feels.

[Tony Spadaro]

Your church doesn't fool around do they? Good pictures Mark. I was
wondering how you got the authentic stable dust in the first shot but later
saw that there were F/X being used - I take it there is at least one
professional stage lighting person in the congregation.

--
http://home.nc.rr.com/tspadaro/
The Camera-ist's Manifesto
a Radical approach to photography.
Or thrill to sights you've never seen before all that often
Chapel Hill artist Tony Spadaro's Home page
http://tspadaro.homestead.com/Home.html

"MarkTuccillo" <mtucc...@home.com> wrote in message

news:3B846F22...@home.com...

[MarkTuccillo]

Thanks!