Re: Why Can't My D3 Find The UAW Pay Scale?
Ray Fischer
>Here's a bit of UAW propaganda trying to debunk the $73 an hour myth. Funny
>thing is they don't make the worker's pay scale public.
Then how do you know how much anybody makes?
> They
>also forget to mention the employ benefits package, which with their hourly
>take home rate easily pushes them above $70 an hour.
How would you know?
> Yes, we need to bail
>these poor workers out.
Never mind the executives who have ruined the companires while getting
paid tens to hundreds of millions of dollars a year.
--
Ray Fischer
rfis...@sonic.net
tn...@mucks.net
<larry...@shitstring.com> wrote:
>Here's a bit of UAW propaganda trying to debunk the $73 an hour myth. Funny
>thing is they don't make the worker's pay scale public. Why is that? They
>also forget to mention the employ benefits package, which with their hourly
>take home rate easily pushes them above $70 an hour. Yes, we need to bail
>these poor workers out. Had these morons saved their money they would be
>living on easy street instead of whining. No tears from me.
>
>
><http://www.uaw22.org/index.cfm?zone=/unionactive/view_article.cfm&homeID=107472>
The fact is that the $70 an hour figure is misleading. That figure is
the cost of operation divided by the number of active employees.
That cost includes the pension cost of retirees and the medical cost
of retirees.
Most new production employees make about $15/ hour. Most new
production employees are not in a pension program, and medical is
very limited.
Jurgen
Whoever started this crap needs to have their ass kicked. No auto
industry worker assembling autos in mainland USA ever gets or got that
sort of money.
The costing is false maths in the first place. Unions fought long and
hard for a pension fund and medical benefits. The "new breed" of auto
makers out of Asia don't bother with these so called benefits. They
expect the Government will fund them after their workers are too tired
to keep up with the robots and they get younger ones.
They'll be happy to see their workers retire in poverty or die from some
industry caused disease like heart failure. Is this what you want for
the future of America? A country full of retired workers who can't
afford the cost of a doctor? Have to line up for a hand out at some
charity just to pay the rent?
GM, Ford and Chrysler are trying to have you all believe the benefits of
permanent employment Americans take for granted are costing them $70+
per hour as they manoeuvre to get a few billion handed out to prop them
up so they can invent ways to make it disappear then ask for more.
I'll tell you buddy, it's the shiny assed bean counters in Detroit who
are now doing a bash up on their loyal workers that did the damage, not
those who worked long and hard building some of the best God damn motor
cars in the world.
Ray Fischer
> "Larry Thong"
Did you expect honesty from a rightard?
--
Ray Fischer
rfis...@sonic.net
Grimly Curmudgeon
drugs began to take hold. I remember Jurgen <jurge...@lycos.com>
saying something like:
>not
>those who worked long and hard building some of the best God damn motor
>cars in the world.
I'm sorry, you seem to have mis-spelled 'pieces of crap'.
Cynicor
Saaaaaaay. Why are we not evaluating the pay structure of bank
executives in this way as we shovel them billions? Seriously, some
people will take any excuse for blue-collar bashing.
J. Clarke
So what? The fact remains that the US auto workers are paying that
even if the people on the line don't see it.
What ever happened to investment-backed retirement plans? If the auto
makers are paying retirees out of income from sales of cars then there
is something wrong somewhere--sounds like the almighty and
oh-so-brilliant union decided to run the retirement plan like the
government runs social security.
And when the Big Three go under, who is going to pay that retirement?
The oh, so brilliant Lenin-wannabees who set it up to begin with I'm
sure were patting each other on the back about how they'd stuck it to
the fat cats without it ever occuring to them that the fat cats have
to eat too and if they starve the fleas starve with them.
> The costing is false maths in the first place. Unions fought long
> and
> hard for a pension fund and medical benefits. The "new breed" of
> auto
> makers out of Asia don't bother with these so called benefits. They
> expect the Government will fund them after their workers are too
> tired
> to keep up with the robots and they get younger ones.
You really think that the Asian manufacturers don't have a retirement
plan and medical benefits? Then how do they attract workers?
> They'll be happy to see their workers retire in poverty or die from
> some
> industry caused disease like heart failure. Is this what you want
> for
> the future of America? A country full of retired workers who can't
> afford the cost of a doctor? Have to line up for a hand out at some
> charity just to pay the rent?
Well, if GM, Ford, and Chrysler go under then that's what you're going
to have. But not because the Japanese don't offer a competitive
package.
> GM, Ford and Chrysler are trying to have you all believe the
> benefits
> of
> permanent employment Americans take for granted are costing them
> $70+
> per hour as they manoeuvre to get a few billion handed out to prop
> them
> up so they can invent ways to make it disappear then ask for more.
Uh, it's not GM, Ford, and Chrysler that are asserting this. It's the
United Auto Workers.
> I'll tell you buddy, it's the shiny assed bean counters in Detroit
> who
> are now doing a bash up on their loyal workers that did the damage,
> not
> those who worked long and hard building some of the best God damn
> motor
> cars in the world.
Uh huh. If those cars are so good then why doesn't anybody want them?
--
--
--John
to email, dial "usenet" and validate
(was jclarke at eye bee em dot net)
Eric Stevens
wrote:
It looks as though that's what's going to happen. Its just that they
are following a different path to that destination.
>
>GM, Ford and Chrysler are trying to have you all believe the benefits of
>permanent employment Americans take for granted are costing them $70+
>per hour as they manoeuvre to get a few billion handed out to prop them
>up so they can invent ways to make it disappear then ask for more.
>
>I'll tell you buddy, it's the shiny assed bean counters in Detroit who
>are now doing a bash up on their loyal workers that did the damage, not
>those who worked long and hard building some of the best God damn motor
>cars in the world.
... and many of the worst.
Eric Stevens
Alan Browne
> are now doing a bash up on their loyal workers that did the damage, not
> those who worked long and hard building some of the best God damn motor
> cars in the world.
Amongst the worst crap in the world too (although _the worst_ is
definitely Range Rover, the defects count champion).
In terms of defects per 100 cars in the first 3 years of service, the
best are consistently Accura, Lexus, Toyota and Honda with Range Rover
at the very far opposite end of the defects chart.
The German cars have average defect rates which is not a good thing esp.
when their high premium prices are concerned (eg: Mercury and Buick have
pretty low defect rates compared to Mercedez Benz and Volkswagen).
Having watched my father's frustration at a series of Ford and GM
products I vowed to never buy from them until they could match the
Japanese. They have yet to get there.
Having watched a number of friends get very expensive repair bills for
their Volkswagens, Audi's and Benz' I vowed to stay away from them too.
(In one case the pax side seat heater died about 3 months after the 1
year warranty. Cost to fix was several hundred bucks... Then his right
side window went off the tracks. A couple hundred to replace a plastic
part.)
(And one friend was told his engine had seized by a german auto maker
dealer after the oil pan was ripped off on a rock. $12,000 for an
engine, please. He smelled a rat and towed the car to another garage.
Installed a new oil pan, filled it up - ran like a charm. [I urged him
to call the various auto sections of the local papers but he declined
despite having the written proof of their fraud.]).
It is NOT about the assembly workers, by the way.
It is about the companies long term vision and commitments to quality
and listening to customers. The Japanese have 100 year vision and 25
year goals.
The American auto co's have no vision and next quarter goals. This is
why fiasco's like GM's EV1 occurred. And ironically, locked out of the
subsidized program, Toyota and Honda were spurred to develop the Insight
and Prius. The Prius of course has been a runaway success. And Detroit
has NOTHING to present. The VOLT does not work (PBS Frontline a few
weeks ago: the prototype could hardly climb a gentle slope. The GM crew
requested that Frontline just run the tape fast in editing...).
The US auto industry is its own worst enemy. Finally their idiot
Democratic congressman-in-chief Dingell has been replaced on the House
Energy committee. He has done more damage to the US auto industry than
any single other person.
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Tom
> Whoever started this crap needs to have their ass kicked. No auto
> industry worker assembling autos in mainland USA ever gets or got that
> sort of money.
>
> The costing is false maths in the first place. Unions fought long and hard
> for a pension fund and medical benefits. The "new breed" of auto makers
> out of Asia don't bother with these so called benefits.
You're stating the "new breed" (honda, toyota, bmw, et. al) of auto makers
in this country don't offer pensions or health care benefits. You're out of
your mind, goof!
They
> expect the Government will fund them after their workers are too tired to
> keep up with the robots and they get younger ones.
>
> They'll be happy to see their workers retire in poverty or die from some
> industry caused disease like heart failure. Is this what you want for the
> future of America? A country full of retired workers who can't afford the
> cost of a doctor? Have to line up for a hand out at some charity just to
> pay the rent?
You're a clueless uneducated stooge.
>
> GM, Ford and Chrysler are trying to have you all believe the benefits of
> permanent employment Americans take for granted are costing them $70+ per
> hour as they manoeuvre to get a few billion handed out to prop them up so
> they can invent ways to make it disappear then ask for more.
>
> I'll tell you buddy, it's the shiny assed bean counters in Detroit who are
> now doing a bash up on their loyal workers that did the damage, not those
> who worked long and hard building some of the best God damn motor cars in
> the world.
management and the auto workers sold detroit down the river by making cars
americans don't want to buy. and signing unsubstainable labor contracts.
why does the big three (joke) own less then 40% of the auto market in this
country? Easy, because of poor quality undesirable products. Why does the
federal government (free trade cheerleaders) still have import duties on
some light trucks?
detroit has got to sell off assests and dump current managment (such as it
is) then go back to washington and beg for a handout.
Tom
"J. Clarke" <jclarke...@cox.net> wrote in message
news:ggu4h...@news4.newsguy.com...
> Jurgen wrote:
of money.
>
> So what? The fact remains that the US auto workers are paying that
> even if the people on the line don't see it.
>
> What ever happened to investment-backed retirement plans? If the auto
> makers are paying retirees out of income from sales of cars then there
> is something wrong somewhere--sounds like the almighty and
> oh-so-brilliant union decided to run the retirement plan like the
> government runs social security.
>
> And when the Big Three go under, who is going to pay that retirement?
The tax payers, of course.
What would happen if the "big three" made cars that had fit/finish of a
Honda, looked cool and some for a reasonble price?
Tom
"Cynicor" <truu...@opt.i.m.um.net> wrote in message
news:49328d6d$0$20308$607e...@cv.net...
> Ray Fischer wrote:
?
>
> Saaaaaaay. Why are we not evaluating the pay structure of bank executives
> in this way as we shovel them billions? Seriously, some people will take
> any excuse for blue-collar bashing.
It gets even worse. . . the Fedral governement is hiring some of dolts
responsible for the crisis to fix it!
And as you stated, they are shoveling billions to the same goofs that made
the bad loans.
tn...@mucks.net
<larry...@shitstring.com> wrote:
>David Starr wrote:
>
>> When I retired as an electrician in 05, my pay rate was $30.01 an
>> hour. No way do benefits add up to 40 bucks an hour.
>
>You conveniently forgot to add that UAW workers get to collect 95% of their
>salary when they are laid off. I really think the $73 figure is very
>conservative.
No salary is paid when laid off. Just ask a salary employee. The $73
figure is way off. Hourly wages for a worker is somewhere around $27
for tier one, and $15 for tier two.
Allen
> Jurgen wrote:
>
>> are now doing a bash up on their loyal workers that did the damage,
>> not those who worked long and hard building some of the best God damn
>> motor cars in the world.
>
> Amongst the worst crap in the world too (although _the worst_ is
> definitely Range Rover, the defects count champion).
>
> In terms of defects per 100 cars in the first 3 years of service, the
> best are consistently Accura, Lexus, Toyota and Honda with Range Rover
> at the very far opposite end of the defects chart.
>
>
Back in the '60s and '70s, an American (as I recall, he was born in
Montana) pushed hard for companies to maintain standards of quality of
their products, based on constant statistical measurements. Although he
was American, speaking and writing in English, American manufacturers
couldn't understand what he was saying and continued with their
goal-setting-and-forgetting ideas (IBM was somewhat of an exception, but
their extremely bureaucratic structure limited the effect). However, the
Japanese, especially Toyota and Honda, got his message and implemented
his ideas. He became a national hero in Japan, but is still mostly
ignored in the US. A couple of years ago I had a conversation with a
fellow church member while our church was going through its annual goal
setting and I told her I hated goals and thought that we should be more
interested in standards, and mentioned that a man named Edwards Deming
had done much work about that. She interrupted me and said "I met him!".
She had worked for IBM previously in an area that that was especially
interested in him, and she had seen him in an airport and recognized him
from his pictures she had seen at work. She approached him and asked if
he were indeed Deming, talked with him for a few minutes and left
feeling like she had met one of the major saints. Too bad that we are
still pretty much deaf and blind were in the good old USA.
Allen
Ray Fischer
>David Starr wrote:
>
>> When I retired as an electrician in 05, my pay rate was $30.01 an
>> hour. No way do benefits add up to 40 bucks an hour.
>
>You conveniently forgot to add that UAW workers get to collect 95% of their
You forgot to remember that you're a dishonest rightard who's already
been exposed as being dihoenst.
--
Ray Fischer
rfis...@sonic.net
George Kerby
On 11/30/08 11:14 PM, in article 493372b4$0$2791$742e...@news.sonic.net,
"Ray Fischer" <rfis...@sonic.net> wrote:
You just forgot, moron...
RichA
"Ray Fischer" <rfis...@sonic.net> wrote in message
news:493372b4$0$2791$742e...@news.sonic.net...
According to analysts, retirees from GM cost so much money that GM's cost of
labour overall is is $55/hr. Toyota's cost is $45.00. GM are dead, even if
the government tries to save them. Damn shame.
Ray Fischer
>>>David Starr wrote:
>>>> When I retired as an electrician in 05, my pay rate was $30.01 an
>>>> hour. No way do benefits add up to 40 bucks an hour.
>>>
>>>You conveniently forgot to add that UAW workers get to collect 95% of
>>>their
>>
>> You forgot to remember that you're a dishonest rightard who's already
>> been exposed as being dihoenst.
>
>According to analysts, retirees from GM cost so much money that GM's cost of
>labour overall is is $55/hr. Toyota's cost is $45.00. GM are dead, even if
>the government tries to save them. Damn shame.
Corporations in Japan don't have to pay for health insurance.
GM does.
--
Ray Fischer
rfis...@sonic.net
Eric Stevens
Which is interesting but not relevant to what Japanese car
manufacturers do in America.
Eric Stevens
Paul Furman
I heard Toyota gives nice health benefits in the US, presumably not so
nice pensions. Japan has universal health care so that's covered over there.
Eric Stevens
wrote:
I live in New Zealand and for the last several years I have driven a
variety of Hondas, most of which have been made in Thailand.
Eric Stevens
Jurgen
Excellent observation Eric. This 'discussion' centres around American
auto makers who provided a lifestyle for their faithful and long serving
workers that is missing from the Asian car makers expansion plans.
Japanese auto workers are now so well paid in Japan and have pretty much
as many benefits as the American workers that buying a "made in Japan"
auto puts choices in the area of "Lexus" and other upper level luxury cars.
The real cars the rest of us buy are indeed either 100% made in $5 per
hour - without benefits countries or all the parts used in assembly of
these cars in the USA are imported from socio-economically disadvantaged
countries like Thailand. Same as my Nikon cameras and lenses are.
One thing missing from this debate is how much in grants and favourable
tax benefits are the Asian car makers getting for setting up (their
assembly from Asian parts) auto plants in the USA? And for that matter,
why are they being allowed to if it is going to see the loss of hundreds
of thousands of US jobs?
Alan Browne
> Alan Browne wrote:
>> Jurgen wrote:
>>
>>> are now doing a bash up on their loyal workers that did the damage,
>>> not those who worked long and hard building some of the best God damn
>>> motor cars in the world.
>>
>> Amongst the worst crap in the world too (although _the worst_ is
>> definitely Range Rover, the defects count champion).
>>
>> In terms of defects per 100 cars in the first 3 years of service, the
>> best are consistently Accura, Lexus, Toyota and Honda with Range Rover
>> at the very far opposite end of the defects chart.
>>
> <Snip>
>>
> Back in the '60s and '70s, an American (as I recall, he was born in
Yeah, the legend is well known (and to an extent exaggerated).
The real problems the big-3 have right now (as they do have good quality
systems) is their bloated lines and organizations as well as their
offering of smaller vehicles.
They really need to reduce to two brands each (Say Chevy and Cadillac;
Ford and Lincoln; Chrylser and Jeep). That will eliminate marketing,
engineering, supply, labour and distribution costs immensely.
They need to reduce their dealerships (I can't recall the number but the
ratio of GM to Toyata dealerships in the US is about 5 to 1 or so; but
Toyota sell almost as many cars).
While cars like the Honda Fit are flying out of dealerships (and once
you've gotten the full Fit demo (seat arrangements, etc.) you'll see
why) GM produces (imports from Korea, I believe) shoddy crap like the
Aveo.
[[ My SO bought a Honda Fit as she's on the road a lot and wanted to
reduce her fuel consumption while also getting a much more practical car
(as she often drags samples to customers). The Fit exceeds her
expectations in all ways. ]]
Someone my SO knows got an Aveo for his wife. He put something heavy in
the back at some point. Every time she cornered the weight of the
object pressing against the wall caused the rear wiper (or washer pump,
I don't remember which) to start up!.
Building small cars that are exceptionally usable; efficient and
reliable is not easy. And certainly not the forte of the (formerly) big
3. At least Ford has a lot of non US designed cars that they can depend
on and GM to a lesser degree with Opel.
Ray Fischer
Where those costs limited to cars made in the US?
GM estimated a few years ago that health care costs added $1500 to the
price of each car they sold.
--
Ray Fischer
rfis...@sonic.net