camera battery
nitinfun
I will be glad to give you more information. A Canon PowerShot A710
IS; the photos are for my pleasure and usually travel shots for
prints not the web. Thus I can go a month or two and never take a
photo then take 200 photos in a couple of day's time. I have a 2GB
Lexar 133x speed memory card. Seldom use the flash. Any
recommendations about memory cards?
Rechargeables are fine, I just don't like remembering to charge the
battery then to take it out of the charger to use. Simple little
thing, good for most; however, my preference is drop in and shot.
Like everyone, I just don't want to miss that special moment because
my battery is dead!
As for asking for a email directly, I do understand the exchange of
information is what benefits all of us. My thought was it might not
be "proper" for this column to exchange a store name or website that
has the best prices for a battery or memory card. Does this group
allow/encourage the name of a specific store to be listed? If so,
please lets talk about the best price for "essential" camera items.
Thanks for your patience, my first posting. Judy
SMS
> Thank you for the posts and comments.
> I will be glad to give you more information. A Canon PowerShot A710
> IS; the photos are for my pleasure and usually travel shots for
> prints not the web. Thus I can go a month or two and never take a
> photo then take 200 photos in a couple of day's time.
<snip>
As stated in reply to your earlier post, non-rechargeable Lithium AA
batteries are your best bet.
As to a store to buy them at, they're sold at stores like Target,
Wal-Mart, Walgreens, etc. They usually cost around $8-10 for 4.
JohnR66
news:1184621896....@o11g2000prd.googlegroups.com...
an issue in that camera.
Batteries: Eneloop or Rayovac "Hybrids". These low self discharge batteries
are ideal for cameras that sit around a lot.
John
ASAAR
> Thank you for the posts and comments.
> I will be glad to give you more information. A Canon PowerShot A710
> IS; the photos are for my pleasure and usually travel shots for
> prints not the web. Thus I can go a month or two and never take a
> photo then take 200 photos in a couple of day's time. I have a 2GB
> Lexar 133x speed memory card. Seldom use the flash. Any
> recommendations about memory cards?
> Rechargeables are fine, I just don't like remembering to charge the
> battery then to take it out of the charger to use. Simple little
> thing, good for most; however, my preference is drop in and shot.
> Like everyone, I just don't want to miss that special moment because
> my battery is dead!
For this usage, you should be happy using either alkaline, lithium
or the Eneloop/Hybrid/Hybrio type AA batteries. Canon indicates
that the A710 should be capable of taking 500 shots using alkalines,
and 900 shots per charge using their NB-3AH NiMH batteries. These
are rated at 2,500mAh, so the Eneloops should be good for about 720
shots per charge. Lithium batteries will last longer than either,
maybe twice as long. Unlike some other camera manufacturers, Canon
doesn't provide data for lithium batteries. But they won't be cost
effective. You could do what some others do, and get a pair of
lithium batteries and keep them as an emergency backup set of
batteries. Check the expiration dates (often very fine print) which
will either be printed on the batteries or on their packages. If
your store has *really* fresh batteries, you'll see that alkalines
have a shelf life of 7 or 8 years and lithium batteries 15 years.
So either could be used as backups. Lithium batteries weigh about
half as much, and may last twice as long. But as they can cost up
to 10 times more per cell, they're not very cost effective. They
also can get extremely hot when used, which is why some
manufacturers state that they shouldn't be used in some cameras.
You shouldn't have any problem using them in the A710, especially
since you said that you don't use the flash very much.
If you get Eneloop type batteries, just keep track of the shots
you take. Since you said that you might take 200 photos in a couple
of days time and the Eneloops are good for about 700 when new and
fully charged, just pop them back in the charger when you've taken
about 300 shots or when it has been 3 months since you last charged
the batteries, whichever comes first. After several years the
Eneloops might only be good for 500 to 600 shots per charge, but
that's still great enough that you wouldn't have to change your
recharging strategy. If you ever forget to recharge them and see a
battery warning indicator flash (or a message in the A710's LCD),
replace the batteries as soon as possible., as the batteries won't
be able to operate the camera much longer, maybe another 5 to 20
shots.
With alkalines it's quite different. The voltage 'rebounds' when
the camera isn't powered on. So if you see a battery warning
message and keep using it until it powers off. If you turn it back
on after letting it rest for an hour or two, you might be able to
take several dozen more shots. And this cycle can often be repeated
several times. With an older Fuji camera that's rated at 200 shots
when using the flash with alkalines, the battery warning came on
shortly after 200 shots had been reached. Soon after that, at about
220 shots the camera powered off by itself. I then stopped using
the flash, but kept using the camera to take shots in clusters, with
rest periods in between. After another couple of days, using the
same alkaline batteries, the shot count exceeded 600! NiMH and
lithium batteries are capable of taking many more shots, but when
they die, they die quickly, without alkaline's 'rebound' ability.
> As for asking for a email directly, I do understand the exchange of
> information is what benefits all of us. My thought was it might not
> be "proper" for this column to exchange a store name or website that
> has the best prices for a battery or memory card. Does this group
> allow/encourage the name of a specific store to be listed? If so,
> please lets talk about the best price for "essential" camera items.
> Thanks for your patience, my first posting. Judy
Yes indeed. Especially where cameras are concerned. If you stick
around you'll see that the general favorite is B&H, partly for their
good prices (not always the best, but not bad), but mainly because
they're very reliable, honest, and have good return policies. Other
good stores according to many here would include Adorama, J&R,
Calumet (can be pricey), and KEH, which I'm personally not familiar
with, and may even have misspelled a name as simple as KEH.
For memory cards, almost any decent one will do, at least for
taking still pictures. I use Sandisk SD cards in my Powershot A620,
either their standard (cheaper) cards, or the slightly more
expensive Ultra II cards. Either should work fine in the A710. If
you plan on using the A710 to shoot movies, you'll want to avoid the
slower cards. Canon recommends their SDC-512 MSH cards for video
recording, but doesn't say what speed they are. My guess is that
they're slight slower than my Sandisk Ultra II cards. You'd
probably also have a hard time finding that 512MB Canon memory card,
and if you did, it would probably cost a lot more than a 1GB Sandisk
Ultra II. :)
My Ultra II SD cards are up to 2GB in size, but unlike my A620,
the A710 can use even larger cards since the manual indicates that
the it is also compatible with the newer, higher capacity SDHC
cards. You shouldn't need them since even if you take pictures
using the highest possible resolution and the lowest compression, a
2GB standard SD card can hold over 600 pictures.
Ron Hunter
Something to consider when using alkaline batteries is that even though
the shelf-life is quite long if the batteries have not been used at all,
they deteriorate much more rapidly after the first use, even if it is
minimal. They should still be good for a couple of years, though, which
should be fine for all but the VERY occasional user.
I have not seen figures for how much, if any, similar effect there is
for lithium disposables.
With the amazing drop in flash card prices vs. capacity, I keep thinking
I really should go out and buy a 1GB card for my old 4mp camera, but
then I ask myself what I need with a card that will store 1400 full
resolution images....
DHB
wrote:
Ron,
We come from 2 different points of view on the memory
issue. I often ask myself & others the reverse of your question above
about flash memory.
My question would be "why not have a 2GB card in the above
camera just in case it's ever needed? When on sale (in the US) most
name brands of flash memory can be had for about $10.00 per GB. So a
2GB card can be had for about $20.00 & in addition to whatever method
you use to backup your pictures, you will also have the luxury of
keeping them on the card @ least until it gets 75% filled up.
This way, it acts as an additional backup & you also have a
convenient way of carrying & sharing some of your photographic
memories with others. This can be done either buy copying some of the
pictures of interest that are still on your card or showing them as a
slide show if your camera has that feature as most do.
Is a 2GB flash card wasted in a 4MP camera? I think not for
the above reasons but also because that same card can be used to also
transport picture files of choice that you may wish to share with
others. Even if your camera does not see them or they were taken with
a different camera, there being on the same card (especially in a
separate directory) just takes up some of the extra space. But this
allows you to use the card to share pictures with anybody who has a
compatible card reader/writer & with inexpensive USB multi-card type
units out there, that is most people with a PC or notebook. You can
also buy & carry a very small USB reader/writer with you when needed.
Just my thought about "why not" have a larger flash card for
an older or any camera?
Respectfully, DHB
"To announce that there must be no criticism of the President,
or that we are to stand by the President, right or wrong,
is not only unpatriotic and servile, but is morally treasonable
to the American public."--Theodore Roosevelt, May 7, 1918
ASAAR
> Something to consider when using alkaline batteries is that even though
> the shelf-life is quite long if the batteries have not been used at all,
> they deteriorate much more rapidly after the first use, even if it is
> minimal. They should still be good for a couple of years, though, which
> should be fine for all but the VERY occasional user.
> I have not seen figures for how much, if any, similar effect there is
> for lithium disposables.
Where did this theory come from? I haven't seen *any* indication
that the shelf life declines by more than what one would expect from
a given amount of pre-use. I'm not surprised that you haven't seen
figures for this effect in lithium batteries. I'd also be surprised
if any battery manufacturer has published any figures for this
effect in alkaline batteries. :)
Part of the what you're talking about may depend on how you define
the length of "shelf life". I'll explain with a contrived, totally
fictional, extreme example. Suppose the shelf life of a 2,400mAh AA
alkaline battery is defined to be the point that where if it has
never been used, it has lost 50% of its capacity so that only
1,200mAh remains. Sitting on a shelf it would take 8 years to reach
this point. Now take a fresh 2,400mAh battery and use it over a
couple of days until it has only 1,200mAh of its capacity remaining.
If one can assume the same rate of decline due to self discharge,
one might expect that it would take 8 years of sitting on a shelf
for the remaining 1,200mAh to decline to 600mAh, representing the
same 50% loss after 8 years. But if you assume that the true
definition of shelf life for this battery is the point that its
capacity has declined to 50% of its original capacity, the pre-used
battery would have reached the end of its shelf life after it was
used for those "couple of days", even though it still contains an
appreciable amount of energy, much of which will still be available
for use 8 years later.
SMS
> Something to consider when using alkaline batteries is that even though
> the shelf-life is quite long if the batteries have not been used at all,
> they deteriorate much more rapidly after the first use, even if it is
> minimal.
That's a very good point that I think a lot of people don't realize. I
have a blurb about that on the website.
"New alkaline batteries have a long shelf life, retaining about 90% of
their capacity over five years. However there is one caveat to this long
shelf life, it's for new, unused, batteries only. Alkaline batteries
begin degrading as soon as you first use them, and the long shelf life
is history. So if you're using alkaline batteries as emergency back-up,
remember that once you start using them, you can't put them back in your
camera bag for the next emergency. Use them up in other devices."
I don't know if the same is true for the Energizer Lithium AA cells.
Steve
"http://batterydata.com"
-----------------------------------------------------
The problem with arguing with a crazy person is that
onlookers will have trouble telling which is the nut.
-----------------------------------------------------
Ron Hunter
mp camera. That gives me 400 pictures, and her about 600. Since we
usually go places together, 1000 shots seems more than adequate. Right
now, I have images on my card from the beginning of the year, and also
on hers. I transfer them to the computer immediately after I get home,
or return to a motel, but leave them on the card for backup.
> This way, it acts as an additional backup & you also have a
> convenient way of carrying & sharing some of your photographic
> memories with others. This can be done either buy copying some of the
> pictures of interest that are still on your card or showing them as a
> slide show if your camera has that feature as most do.
>
> Is a 2GB flash card wasted in a 4MP camera? I think not for
> the above reasons but also because that same card can be used to also
> transport picture files of choice that you may wish to share with
> others. Even if your camera does not see them or they were taken with
> a different camera, there being on the same card (especially in a
> separate directory) just takes up some of the extra space. But this
> allows you to use the card to share pictures with anybody who has a
> compatible card reader/writer & with inexpensive USB multi-card type
> units out there, that is most people with a PC or notebook. You can
> also buy & carry a very small USB reader/writer with you when needed.
>
I have such a reader, and carry it with my laptop. I also have
Irfanview on the card in another directory.
I also have a 1GB card in my GPS, which goes on trips with me, and holds
much of the US in detail maps, by region. I really just can't justify a
2GB card, even if it does just cost $25 these days.
Ron Hunter
The report I read claimed that as long as the battery had not been used
at all, then it might be expected to retain 80% of its charge after 5 or
more years, but that even brief use it might be reduced to 2 years for
the remaining charge. I have no way to verify this statement, but that
is what I read. It was online, at some manufacturer's information site.
SMS
> The report I read claimed that as long as the battery had not been used
> at all, then it might be expected to retain 80% of its charge after 5 or
> more years, but that even brief use it might be reduced to 2 years for
> the remaining charge. I have no way to verify this statement, but that
> is what I read. It was online, at some manufacturer's information site.
One place that mentions this issue is
"http://www.fingertech.co.uk/battery_technology.html". I remember
reading the same thing on some app note a long time ago.
IIRC it related to the separator, once the chemical reaction in the
battery started, the separator starts deteriorating, and self-discharge
goes up by a tiny amount, but enough to reduce the shelf life.
SMS
> ASAAR wrote:
>> Part of the what you're talking about may depend on how you define
>> the length of "shelf life". I'll explain with a contrived, totally
>> fictional, extreme example.
<snip>
> The report I read claimed that as long as the battery had not been used
> at all, then it might be expected to retain 80% of its charge after 5 or
> more years, but that even brief use it might be reduced to 2 years for
> the remaining charge. I have no way to verify this statement, but that
> is what I read. It was online, at some manufacturer's information site.
Why would you accept information that you read on a manufacturer's
information site when you have "a contrived, totally fictional, extreme
example" explanation available instead?
DHB
wrote:
>DHB wrote:
>> On Tue, 17 Jul 2007 02:50:09 -0500, Ron Hunter <rphu...@charter.net>
>> wrote:
<Big SNIP>
Ron,
It sounds like the memory card sizes you & your wife
have are large enough to more than meet your respective individual &
collective needs.
Maybe I am just unrealistically paranoid or hopeful (also do
an occasional video clip with a P&S) but I would not want to find
myself photographing some once in a life time event & run out of
memory or battery power to continue, so I carry far more than I am
likely to ever need in 1 outing. As an E.T. I know potential pitfalls
of having all of 1's eggs in a single basket, so where it's practical,
I like having redundancy.
This is why I always have a 2nd battery & a 2nd memory card
too. Depending on when & where I am going, I may also take a 2nd
digital camera. Taken too far, photography can become a bother
instead of a pleasure, so I try to keep it reasonable & do so "most"
of the time.
Interesting that I also have Irfanview (with the EXIF plug-in)
on some of my memory cards as well as a flash thumb drive so I always
have a fast photo viewer with me to use & share if needed with others.
Thanks for sharing your viewpoint with me & others. A long
time ago I realized that personal experience is a great teacher but
there is also a great deal to learn from exchanging experiences with
others & understanding what works for them & why.
ASAAR
> The report I read claimed that as long as the battery had not been used
> at all, then it might be expected to retain 80% of its charge after 5 or
> more years, but that even brief use it might be reduced to 2 years for
> the remaining charge. I have no way to verify this statement, but that
> is what I read. It was online, at some manufacturer's information site.
I've found a couple of my old, forgotten radios that contained
alkalines so old I'm surprised they didn't suffer major leakage.
Yet when removed and used in other devices, they still had a good
deal of life. The "80% of its charge after 5 or more years" that
you read is probably an understatement, since you can frequently
find name brand alkalines having expiration dates 7 or 8 years in
the future. If you find any today having expiration dates of 2011,
check for signs of leakage or gray whiskers before you buy. :)
ASAAR
> Why would you accept information that you read on a manufacturer's
> information site when you have "a contrived, totally fictional, extreme
> example" explanation available instead?
Only a fool such as you wouldn't, since that was said to alert
doofuses that I was providing only a typical example, and did not
want to represent it as anything actually tested and measured.
Unlike you, who frequently passes as real, what is fabrication.
ASAAR
> Ron Hunter wrote:
>>
>> The report I read claimed that as long as the battery had not been used
>> at all, then it might be expected to retain 80% of its charge after 5 or
>> more years, but that even brief use it might be reduced to 2 years for
>> the remaining charge. I have no way to verify this statement, but that
>> is what I read. It was online, at some manufacturer's information site.
>
> One place that mentions this issue is
> "http://www.fingertech.co.uk/battery_technology.html". I remember
> reading the same thing on some app note a long time ago.
Ron, if you didn't bother to check this web page, here's the
relevant part of it, and it says nothing to support the statement
that a special type of decline takes place if alkaline batteries are
used briefly. "Fingertech" isn't even a "battery" company as the
URL might imply. Finger Technology Limited sells PDAs and PDA
software ("The PowerMonkey has arrived .........").
Here's everything that web page has to say about Alkaline
batteries. The next paragraph, not quoted, refers to rechargeable
alkaline batteries. All things considered, Fingertech's literature
is not a reliable source of information. Some of it is quite
misleading, and this is understandable since it's used primarily to
help sell their products.
> Alkaline Batteries:
>
> Alkaline batteries are predictable. Brand new batteries deliver
> 1.5 Volts at 2600 mAh. While they have a long shelf life (90%
> after five years), they begin degrading when you start using them.
> So while they start at 1.5v, this drops through usage. Since the
> degradation rate is constant and known, you can measure the
> voltage and determine how much life is left in the batteries. This
> is how power management software operates. Alkaline batteries
> have cut off voltages around 0.9v. Your HPC won't work with
> voltage that low. So, you are going to get less than the rated
> capacity out of alkaline batteries. How low can the voltage be?
> Somewhere around 1.1v. On a positive note, you can take the
> "dead" batteries from your HPC and still use them in something
> that doesn't demand so much power. The batteries from different
> manufacturers are different and they respond to surges differently.
> If your brand new alkalines give you a power warning when you
> connect to a modem or memory board, they probably don't perform
> well under heavy loads. Before you curse your HPC, try different
> batteries. This is especially true of some renewables which are rated
> at only 1.2v.
http://www.fingertech.co.uk/battery_technology.html
First, consider this part of it :
> . . . they begin degrading when you start using them. So while they
> start at 1.5v, this drops through usage.
It does *not* say that the degradation is due to a brief initial
use, and then the alkalines continue to degrade if not used. They
specifically say that the degradation is due to usage. What they
really were trying to say, but didn't do a very good job of, was to
say that initially the alkaline voltage is about 1.5 volts, and that
the longer the alkaline batteries are used, the lower this voltage
becomes. This paper was obviously written for those end users that
know very little about batteries. :)
> Since the degradation rate is constant and known, you can measure
> the voltage and determine how much life is left in the batteries.
> This is how power management software operates.
This is rarely true, but it is how the PDA software operates for
Palm PDAs. It only works for those that use alkalines because they
are very efficient (they don't use illuminated screens) and use very
low power CPUs. My Palm PDAs got from 40 to 60 hours of life from
two standard AAA alkaline cells. At that rate the load isn't enough
to significantly pull down the battery voltage. Another way of
putting it is that at such low currents, internal battery resistance
isn't much of a factor. These PDAs also have backlights for their
LCD screens, but they're generally used for very short periods
because they seriously shorten battery life.
> Alkaline batteries have cut off voltages around 0.9v. Your HPC
> won't work with voltage that low. So, you are going to get less
> than the rated capacity out of alkaline batteries. How low can the
> voltage be? Somewhere around 1.1v.
Wrong. Alkaline batteries don't have cutoff voltages around 0.9v.
Energizer's data sheets for alkaline AA batteries only show data
down to 0.8v, but that's because at the high loads shown, the
batteries don't last much longer. The two loads shown are 250ma and
500ma. These might be representative of cameras, but not of devices
such as the Palm PDAs that draw about 25ma, or small portable analog
radios that can draw 1/2 of that current. These radios operate
quite nicely when the batteries are putting out less than 0.5 volts.
It's not the alkalines that have the cutoff voltages. It's the
digital PDAs that are designed to shut down at particular voltages.
The 1.1v limit mentioned is a fair value for Palm PDAs, but I set
my Palms to issue voltage warnings when the voltage dropped to 2.0
volts, or 1.0 per cell. If forced to continue operating, they would
shut down at approximately 1.8 volts, or 0.9v per cell. So you can
see Fingertech's perspective. It's about more about the PDA, not as
much about the battery.
> On a positive note, you can take the "dead" batteries from your HPC
> and still use them in something that doesn't demand so much power.
See! I've also said this in a number of r.p.d. replies. But
there's a lot more life left in the batteries that are too pooped to
power cameras than in those too pooped to power PDAs. <g>
I won't quote all that Fingertech said about rechargeable
alkalines, but this bit is very misleading :
> Manganese(RAM) batteries offer the consumer the high alkaline
> power they are used to, but much more economically. It is quite
> clearly the best of both worlds…. All the features and benefits
> of Alkaline batteries, with the added benefit of being rechargeable.
What they don't say is that the maximum number of charge cycles is
far lower than NiCD and NiMH batteries under the best of
circumstances. RayOVac quoted about 200 charge cycles for their
alkaline Renewal batteries. But it could drop to less than 5 charge
cycles if used too long before putting them back in the charger.
When I used them, cameras typically didn't get very good life from
regular alkaline batteries, typically getting 20 to 40 shots before
they'd need to be replaced. To reach a reasonable number of charge
cycles from the Renewals, RayOVac recommended charging them after
using only about 25% of their capacity. With this as a guideline,
in those same cameras, to preserve the batteries they would need to
be recharged every 5 to 10 shots. Quite impractical. Even with
today's more efficient cameras, rechargeable alkalines still are as
poor a choice as one could make.
I won't quote what Fingertech says about Li-Ion batteries. The
pros are pretty good, but the cons might make SMS weep. :)
Ron Hunter
useless. Strangely, I recently opened a penlight and found one of the
Renewal batteries still in it, and still working! I KNOW I haven't seen
the charger in years. The requirement to recharge them at 50% or better
really made it difficult to use them in some applications.