Thanksgiving photo
Frank ess
http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2667/4134543499_7540c66de2_o.jpg
War Veterans Memorial, Mt Soledad, LaJolla, California
--
Frank ess
Die Wahrheit
Yeah, let me thank them for being corporate pawns and are too ignorant to
see that they are just patsies for oil-company CEOs. Giving up their lives
and mindlessly following like sheep to keep those CEOs in their cushy and
manipulative towers.
War casualties (religious or corporate) are just prime examples of the very
best Darwinism in action.
GO! Lemmings! GO!
Thanks! For erasing your weak-willed stupidity genes from the human race!
Ray Fischer
Wrong.
Thankgiving is not a "christian" holiday and it is not a patriotic
holiday. It has nothing to do with war (that's Memorial Day) and it
has nothing to do with the cross (that's Easter). It's a day for
giving thanks.
--
Ray Fischer
rfis...@sonic.net
sna...@mailinator.com
A bit more cropping to get rid of the cars and it will look better. A bit hard to fix the darkness though.
Chris H
<diewa...@address.info> writes
>On Thu, 26 Nov 2009 14:15:19 -0800, "Frank ess" <fr...@fshe2fs.com> wrote:
>
>>A reminder of what we truly /must/ give thanks for:
>>
>>http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2667/4134543499_7540c66de2_o.jpg
>>
>>War Veterans Memorial, Mt Soledad, LaJolla, California
>
>Yeah, let me thank them for being corporate pawns and are too ignorant to
>see that they are just patsies for oil-company CEOs. Giving up their lives
>and mindlessly following like sheep to keep those CEOs in their cushy and
>manipulative towers.
As an ex-serviceman I have to say there is more than a little truth in
that.
>War casualties (religious or corporate) are just prime examples of the very
>best Darwinism in action.
Not sure about that.... it depends on which cou8ntry you are talking
about. Some Armies like the US really believe they are there fro
"freedom and democracy" and they are bringing "civilisation" etc others
are a LOT more cynical.
EG the UK forces. I recall a battalion briefing in 1990 and one of the
questions was "were we going in for oil and the big corporations?" The
answer was "Yes, it is politics and commerce.... but when has it ever
been different?"
--
\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\
\/\/\/\/\ Chris Hills Staffs England /\/\/\/\/
\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/
Chris H
<rfis...@sonic.net> writes
The cross I though was a generic Christian symbol and not just for
Easter?
As you say it is not about "war" though I thought (btw I am not
American so this is a genuine request for information) that it was
thanks giving for landing in the Americas safely and making the
crossing?
It would be "Christian" as most/all? of them were some what zealous in
their Christian beliefs hence leaving Europe. I am not sure that
originally it was "patriotic" as there was no country as such to be
patriotic about? Didn't that come later?
Die Wahrheit
>In message <4b0f25c9$0$1631$742e...@news.sonic.net>, Ray Fischer
><rfis...@sonic.net> writes
>>Frank ess <fr...@fshe2fs.com> wrote:
>>>A reminder of what we truly /must/ give thanks for:
>>>
>>>http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2667/4134543499_7540c66de2_o.jpg
>>>
>>>War Veterans Memorial, Mt Soledad, LaJolla, California
>>
>>Wrong.
>>
>>Thankgiving is not a "christian" holiday and it is not a patriotic
>>holiday. It has nothing to do with war (that's Memorial Day) and it
>>has nothing to do with the cross (that's Easter). It's a day for
>>giving thanks.
>
>The cross I though was a generic Christian symbol and not just for
>Easter?
>
>As you say it is not about "war" though I thought (btw I am not
>American so this is a genuine request for information) that it was
>thanks giving for landing in the Americas safely and making the
>crossing?
>
>It would be "Christian" as most/all? of them were some what zealous in
>their Christian beliefs hence leaving Europe. I am not sure that
>originally it was "patriotic" as there was no country as such to be
>patriotic about? Didn't that come later?
The origin of "Thanks-Giving" is a First-Nations' (Native American) custom
that was originally called, when correctly translated, "Thanks for Giving".
It has absolutely NOTHING to do with a European's adopted (forced on)
middle-east deity. It was to give thanks to those that shared what they had
with you, and thanks to the earth for it sharing what it provided.
Unfortunately, just like all original holidays and customs, this holiday
too has been stolen, twisted, bastardized, and manipulated into some
psychotic-christian war-mongering crap for their own self-serving means.
Chris H
<diewa...@address.info> writes
Thanks for the clarification... Not like the Christians to steal some
one else's festival. Now I must put the Christmas decorations up :-)))
>It was to give thanks to those that shared what they had
>with you, and thanks to the earth for it sharing what it provided.
>
>Unfortunately, just like all original holidays and customs, this holiday
>too has been stolen, twisted, bastardized, and manipulated into some
>psychotic-christian war-mongering crap for their own self-serving means.
And unfortunately the winners get to rewrite history...
The good news is the Irish government has finally woken up and is going
to sort out the Catholic Church over its long history of child abuse.
At last we should see a lot of them end up in jail in 2010.
Die Wahrheit
I call them Yule Decorations, and only decorate a living tree outside. With
strings of food and ornaments symbolic of nature's forces, to pay homage to
all life (not death, as christians worship their symbols of death). The
same way it used to be done before christians cut down all the Yule Trees
and hid them in their homes to give them the custom they have today.
There's a reason their holiday is on the 25th and Yule was on the Winter
Solstice. It took them that long to discover all the decorated and living
Pagan Yule Trees, to destroy them, then hide these non-burnable trees in
their homes (the only way they could hide their vandalism) and then make up
a story to tell their children and neighbors. To explain this insane
behavior of theirs of putting a live decorated tree in the middle of their
house in the dead of winter. There's a reason too that some European
cultures still practice hanging a Yule Tree upside-down in their homes in
winter. It was a way for christians to keep them out of the way and drying
until they could burn them. Symbolic too of hanging all Pagans.
As recorded by Charlemagne, "And they cut down the mighty Pagan Tree, and
up sprang the birth of our christ."
>>It was to give thanks to those that shared what they had
>>with you, and thanks to the earth for it sharing what it provided.
>>
>>Unfortunately, just like all original holidays and customs, this holiday
>>too has been stolen, twisted, bastardized, and manipulated into some
>>psychotic-christian war-mongering crap for their own self-serving means.
>
>And unfortunately the winners get to rewrite history...
>
>The good news is the Irish government has finally woken up and is going
>to sort out the Catholic Church over its long history of child abuse.
>At last we should see a lot of them end up in jail in 2010.
While you're at it, ask them about ...
The custom of drinking for st. patrick's day. How it goes all the way back
to when christians wiped out the original Irish Pagan beliefs in the Pagan
Deity of Trefuilnid Treochar (whose symbol of power was the shamrock, now
stolen for use by the christians' imaginary st. patrick). Today's Irish
drinking custom stems from trying to forget the loss of their culture and
drowning their sorrows. Trefuilnid Treochar was just renamed into st.
patrick so christians wouldn't have to put them to death for worshipping
their Pagan Gods. The allegory of "driving the 'snakes' out of Ireland" is
just the christian-invented myth of how they ridded all of Ireland of their
original Irish customs, knowledge, wisdoms, beliefs, and Deities. There
never were any actual snakes in Ireland, unless you consider the christians
themselves.
This is the same way that christians obtained all their original saints, by
just renaming all the original Pagan's Deities as they wiped out each
European regions' culture and ways in their destructive wake and
self-serving path across Europe. The same as they did in North America and
South America. They figured that making human sacrifices of all the
European Pagans to their christian god was somehow going against one of
their commandments, so christians found a way to stop having to kill all
Pagans by just renaming their Deities. The Pagans could then still worship
their Pagan Deities but only if they called them by their new christian
"saint" names. Otherwise they would still have to be made into human
sacrifices to appease their beliefs in a christian god.
Human-sacrifice is quite popular with christians. Just like all the Pagans
that were found buried around Stonehenge. The cuts found in the bones of
the shallow Pagans' graves all around Stonehenge are now revealed through
modern forensics that they could only have been made by christians' swords
at the time. One of the interesting stories of a PBS series called "Secrets
of the Dead". Uncovering the real truths behind all the christian-written
false history we were all taught in schools. E.g. Syphilis did NOT come
from Native Americans and brought back to Europe, as has been mistakenly
parroted all these years. Forensics and genetic tracking now proves it
originated from a small christian monastery in Europe (is anyone surprised
by this?). Syphilis was then brought to North American by christian
missionary hypocrites who used Native American women as their sex-slaves.
Chris H
Quite so!
> and only decorate a living tree outside. With
>strings of food and ornaments symbolic of nature's forces, to pay homage to
>all life (not death, as christians worship their symbols of death). The
>same way it used to be done before christians cut down all the Yule Trees
>and hid them in their homes to give them the custom they have today.
>There's a reason their holiday is on the 25th and Yule was on the Winter
>Solstice. It took them that long to discover all the decorated and living
>Pagan Yule Trees, to destroy them, then hide these non-burnable trees in
>their homes (the only way they could hide their vandalism) and then make up
>a story to tell their children and neighbors. To explain this insane
>behavior of theirs of putting a live decorated tree in the middle of their
>house in the dead of winter. There's a reason too that some European
>cultures still practice hanging a Yule Tree upside-down in their homes in
>winter. It was a way for christians to keep them out of the way and drying
>until they could burn them. Symbolic too of hanging all Pagans.
Interesting... Most don't realise the "Christmas tree" is a pagan thing
that only really came to prominence about 150 years ago when Albert
brought it to the UK for Victoria... Then it spread round the British
Empire which ate time covered a large part of the world. Otherwise most
of the world would not have "Christmas" Trees now.
>As recorded by Charlemagne, "And they cut down the mighty Pagan Tree, and
>up sprang the birth of our christ."
>>>It was to give thanks to those that shared what they had
>>>with you, and thanks to the earth for it sharing what it provided.
>>>
>>>Unfortunately, just like all original holidays and customs, this holiday
>>>too has been stolen, twisted, bastardized, and manipulated into some
>>>psychotic-christian war-mongering crap for their own self-serving means.
>>
>>And unfortunately the winners get to rewrite history...
>>
>>The good news is the Irish government has finally woken up and is going
>>to sort out the Catholic Church over its long history of child abuse.
>>At last we should see a lot of them end up in jail in 2010.
>
>While you're at it, ask them about ...
>
>The custom of drinking for st. patrick's day. How it goes all the way back
>to when christians wiped out the original Irish Pagan beliefs in the Pagan
>Deity of Trefuilnid Treochar (whose symbol of power was the shamrock, now
>stolen for use by the christians' imaginary st. patrick).
Didn't realise St Patrick was not real... or at least it wasn't not
based on a real person. They tended to base them on something real even
if most was make believe.
> Today's Irish
>drinking custom stems from trying to forget the loss of their culture and
>drowning their sorrows.
Not sure about that but I will drink to it :-)
>Trefuilnid Treochar was just renamed into st.
>patrick so christians wouldn't have to put them to death for worshipping
>their Pagan Gods.
There is a lot of that in Christianity...
>The allegory of "driving the 'snakes' out of Ireland" is
>just the christian-invented myth of how they ridded all of Ireland of their
>original Irish customs, knowledge, wisdoms, beliefs, and Deities. There
>never were any actual snakes in Ireland, unless you consider the christians
>themselves.
Well the new Irish Government report on the priests abusing children
might agree with you.
>This is the same way that christians obtained all their original saints, by
>just renaming all the original Pagan's Deities as they wiped out each
>European regions' culture and ways in their destructive wake and
>self-serving path across Europe.
Also building most of their churches on old Pagan sites.
>The same as they did in North America and
>South America. They figured that making human sacrifices of all the
>European Pagans to their christian god was somehow going against one of
>their commandments, so christians found a way to stop having to kill all
>Pagans by just renaming their Deities. The Pagans could then still worship
>their Pagan Deities but only if they called them by their new christian
>"saint" names. Otherwise they would still have to be made into human
>sacrifices to appease their beliefs in a christian god.
Which explains some of the "odd" Christian rituals in some parts of the
world.
>Human-sacrifice is quite popular with christians. Just like all the Pagans
>that were found buried around Stonehenge. The cuts found in the bones of
>the shallow Pagans' graves all around Stonehenge are now revealed through
>modern forensics that they could only have been made by christians' swords
>at the time.
Not sure about that... the Christians were not the only people with
swords.
> One of the interesting stories of a PBS series called "Secrets
>of the Dead". Uncovering the real truths behind all the christian-written
>false history we were all taught in schools.
I know. The winners get to re-write history....
> E.g. Syphilis did NOT come
>from Native Americans and brought back to Europe, as has been mistakenly
>parroted all these years. Forensics and genetic tracking now proves it
>originated from a small christian monastery in Europe (is anyone surprised
>by this?). Syphilis was then brought to North American by christian
>missionary hypocrites who used Native American women as their sex-slaves.
Not surprised but do you have any evidence for this?
Die Wahrheit
>
>>Human-sacrifice is quite popular with christians. Just like all the Pagans
>>that were found buried around Stonehenge. The cuts found in the bones of
>>the shallow Pagans' graves all around Stonehenge are now revealed through
>>modern forensics that they could only have been made by christians' swords
>>at the time.
>
>Not sure about that... the Christians were not the only people with
>swords.
They were the only ones who had swords capable of making the type of marks
that were found in the neck-vertebrae of the buried Pagans. The Pagan's
graves also not consistent with standard Pagan burial practices at the
time.
>
>> One of the interesting stories of a PBS series called "Secrets
>>of the Dead". Uncovering the real truths behind all the christian-written
>>false history we were all taught in schools.
>
>I know. The winners get to re-write history....
>
>> E.g. Syphilis did NOT come
>>from Native Americans and brought back to Europe, as has been mistakenly
>>parroted all these years. Forensics and genetic tracking now proves it
>>originated from a small christian monastery in Europe (is anyone surprised
>>by this?). Syphilis was then brought to North American by christian
>>missionary hypocrites who used Native American women as their sex-slaves.
>
>Not surprised but do you have any evidence for this?
For both of the above, go to www.pbs.org and search out the episodes of
"Secrets of the Dead" series. Both instances of uncovering these christian
lies through modern forensics are now well documented.
Die Wahrheit
>In Message-ID:<G7S34BBS...@phaedsys.demon.co.uk> posted on Fri, 27 Nov 2009
>09:03:14 +0000, Chris H wrote: Begin
>
>>In message <ab1ug5tdqn47ff64i...@4ax.com>, Die Wahrheit
>><diewa...@address.info> writes
>>>On Thu, 26 Nov 2009 14:15:19 -0800, "Frank ess" <fr...@fshe2fs.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>>A reminder of what we truly /must/ give thanks for:
>>>>
>>>>http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2667/4134543499_7540c66de2_o.jpg
>>>>
>>>>War Veterans Memorial, Mt Soledad, LaJolla, California
>>>
>>>Yeah, let me thank them for being corporate pawns and are too ignorant to
>>>see that they are just patsies for oil-company CEOs. Giving up their lives
>>>and mindlessly following like sheep to keep those CEOs in their cushy and
>>>manipulative towers.
>>
>>As an ex-serviceman I have to say there is more than a little truth in
>>that.
>
>I have to agree and likewise would rather that eyesore on Mt Soledad were gone.
>Often when asked about war and the one that followed my time (Viet Nam),
>I say if I'd known then what I know now, I'd likely be a Canadian citizen today.
I liked how christians, in their infinite arrogance and disrespect, even
erected a christian cross on the site of the World Trade Center disaster
soon after. Giving everyone who died there a christian burial. Never once
considering the beliefs of all those who died there who were not
christians, and whose family and friends would be HIGHLY offended if they
were buried as christians.
christian arrogance, hypocrisy, and disrespect is ongoing and infinite.
Chris H
<m...@privacy.net> writes
>In Message-ID:<G7S34BBS...@phaedsys.demon.co.uk> posted on Fri, 27
>Nov 2009
>09:03:14 +0000, Chris H wrote: Begin
>
>><diewa...@address.info> writes
>>>On Thu, 26 Nov 2009 14:15:19 -0800, "Frank ess" <fr...@fshe2fs.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>>A reminder of what we truly /must/ give thanks for:
>>>>
>>>>http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2667/4134543499_7540c66de2_o.jpg
>>>>
>>>>War Veterans Memorial, Mt Soledad, LaJolla, California
>>>
>>>Yeah, let me thank them for being corporate pawns and are too ignorant to
>>>see that they are just patsies for oil-company CEOs. Giving up their lives
>>>and mindlessly following like sheep to keep those CEOs in their cushy and
>>>manipulative towers.
>>
>>As an ex-serviceman I have to say there is more than a little truth in
>>that.
>
>were gone.
I am a Brit and will make no comment on your memorials but I dislike the
religious memorials. As far as I know everyone "had God on their side".
I disliked the religious memorial services too. Sanctimonious rubbish
that is no better than the politicians.
>Often when asked about war and the one that followed my time (Viet Nam),
>I say if I'd known then what I know now, I'd likely be a Canadian
>citizen today.
It would not have changed my outlook. The British Armed forces are a
Professional volunteer military and due to our long history of
"civilising" (?) the world over the last 500 years the British military
are generally quite cynical and do not (and did not from the start)
believe that Iraq or Afghanistan was "Freedom and Democracy". They were
there to fight the enemy the government wanted them to fight for the
usual political/commercial reasons. It has always been thus.
Some understanding of the locals and a good dose of cynasissum and a
healthy mistrust of the our own Government (of any colour :-) means the
British Troops are a highly professional force that works within legal
guidelines but do not have a religious/political zeal.
Chris H
I know... I wonder what would have happened if the local mosque put an
Islamic symbol there for the Moslems who were also killed in the WTC....
To many any of the middle eastern religions (Judaism, Christianity,
Islam) are offensive.
>christian arrogance, hypocrisy, and disrespect is ongoing and infinite.
Relax.... Their time is coming to an end.
Die Wahrheit
>Frank ess <fr...@fshe2fs.com> wrote:
>>A reminder of what we truly /must/ give thanks for:
>>
>>http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2667/4134543499_7540c66de2_o.jpg
>>
>>War Veterans Memorial, Mt Soledad, LaJolla, California
>
>Wrong.
>
>Thankgiving is not a "christian" holiday and it is not a patriotic
>holiday. It has nothing to do with war (that's Memorial Day) and it
>has nothing to do with the cross (that's Easter).
Eostre (easter) is the ancient Pagan Goddess of Spring. Evidence of this
holiday as long as 3500+ years ago under various northern-climate cultures
and their various Deities. Celebrated with rabbits and eggs to symbolize
the fertility and resurrection of life in Spring in northern climates. When
christians destroyed your European Pagan ancestors and your original
heritage they stole the holiday, most popularly celebrated at the time
under the name of "Eostre", and perverted it into a lie. This is why, to
this very day, the day of celebration is still decided on by phases of the
moon due to its Pagan's Astrological knowledge origins. In christian
beliefs, if they weren't such hypocrites, they'd call that demonic.
Choosing their day to worship their "easter" based on Pagan's Astrology.
There was no "resurrection" of their imaginary jesus. Unless he was an
egg-laying chicken or he fucked as prolifically as a bunny--fur, ears, and
all.
Die Wahrheit
>Frank ess <fr...@fshe2fs.com> wrote:
>>A reminder of what we truly /must/ give thanks for:
>>
>>http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2667/4134543499_7540c66de2_o.jpg
>>
>>War Veterans Memorial, Mt Soledad, LaJolla, California
>
>Wrong.
>
>Thankgiving is not a "christian" holiday and it is not a patriotic
>holiday. It has nothing to do with war (that's Memorial Day) and it
>has nothing to do with the cross (that's Easter).
Eostre (easter) is the ancient Pagan Goddess of Spring. Evidence of this
RustY �
"Frank ess" <fr...@fshe2fs.com> wrote in message
news:g42dnaP6gLJtYJPW...@giganews.com...
>
> War Veterans Memorial, Mt Soledad, LaJolla, California
>
> --
sub-station.
Frank ess
Yes, it does, doesn't it? I think it is an idiot-resistant enclosure
to repel climbers. There have been a few damaged drunks over the
years.
John McWilliams
You didn't read History, by any remote chance, did you?
--
lsmft
George Kerby
On 11/26/09 4:57 PM, in article ab1ug5tdqn47ff64i...@4ax.com,
"Die Wahrheit" <diewa...@address.info> wrote:
You should have bamboo stuck under your fingernails while being consciously
eviscerated with a rusty crowbar, you fecal feaster.
George Kerby
On 11/26/09 7:05 PM, in article 4b0f25c9$0$1631$742e...@news.sonic.net,
"Ray Fischer" <rfis...@sonic.net> wrote:
Another fine Obama doll Fish-Head Rot found in his porcelain bowl of
worship.
Ray Fischer
>You should have bamboo stuck under your fingernails while being consciously
>eviscerated with a rusty crowbar, you fecal feaster.
Oh my! Do we all need some Anger Management courses in here, or what?
George Kerby in <C55E9C54.1A409%ghost_...@hotmail.com>
--
Ray Fischer
rfis...@sonic.net
tony cooper
wrote:
>In message <4b0f25c9$0$1631$742e...@news.sonic.net>, Ray Fischer
><rfis...@sonic.net> writes
>>Frank ess <fr...@fshe2fs.com> wrote:
>>>A reminder of what we truly /must/ give thanks for:
>>>
>>>http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2667/4134543499_7540c66de2_o.jpg
>>>
>>>War Veterans Memorial, Mt Soledad, LaJolla, California
>>
>>Wrong.
>>
>>Thankgiving is not a "christian" holiday and it is not a patriotic
>>holiday. It has nothing to do with war (that's Memorial Day) and it
>>has nothing to do with the cross (that's Easter). It's a day for
>>giving thanks.
>
>The cross I though was a generic Christian symbol and not just for
>Easter?
>
>As you say it is not about "war" though I thought (btw I am not
>American so this is a genuine request for information) that it was
>thanks giving for landing in the Americas safely and making the
>crossing?
No, the original (US) Thanksgiving was simply a harvest festival
similar to the celebrations in Europe that had been observed for
centuries. The popularly accepted "first Thanksgiving" in America
(not yet the United States) was in Plymouth, Massachusetts in 1621.
The previous year's harvest had been scant, but the 1621 harvest was
more successful.
There were other harvest festivals in 1619 (Berkeley Plantation,
Virginia) and in 1620, but the biggie was in 1621. There was no
recorded harvest festival in 1622, but there was one in 1623.
The Americans didn't invent Thanksgiving. We just gave it a specific
name and a designated day of the week (Thursday). There have been
harvest celebrations all over the world in agricultural civilizations,
and most of them have some sort of religious tie-in. What the
Americans did was make it a designated and official holiday in 1789 by
proclamation of President Washington. George may have been thankful
about defeating the British, but it was still a harvest festival.
It was not a religious event, but the celebrants were religious so
they were thankful to God. It's on a Thursday because the early
harvest festivals lasted for two or three days, and it had to be over
by Sunday. It wasn't proper to have a festival on the Sabbath.
If you look into any American holiday or custom you'll find some
precedent for it in Europe. We have different names, and celebrate
differently, but the origins go back to Europe. You might say that
our Independence Day (July 4th) holiday is purely American, but the
idea of celebrating a victory or defining event in the history of the
country is not at all just American.
>It would be "Christian" as most/all? of them were some what zealous in
>their Christian beliefs hence leaving Europe. I am not sure that
>originally it was "patriotic" as there was no country as such to be
>patriotic about? Didn't that come later?
--
Tony Cooper - Orlando, Florida
John McWilliams
tony, tony, tony: What's wrong with you??? You write a piece with
excellent information, in a modulated voice, and did not call any one a
moron, or be offensive against any nationality. C'mon- this is usenet!
Thanks for putting a broad perspective on this. I wonder if Black Friday
and/or Cyber Monday might be American 'festivals' that did indeed start
on these shores.
--
john mcwilliams
NameHere
wrote:
Except for the fact that he's dead wrong about most all of it. Then fools
like you fall for it.
tony cooper
wrote:
It will be interesting to read your version.
Chris H
<tony_co...@earthlink.net> writes
I thought your notes, Tony, made complete sense.
C J Campbell
> It was not a religious event, but the celebrants were religious so
> they were thankful to God. It's on a Thursday because the early
> harvest festivals lasted for two or three days, and it had to be over
> by Sunday. It wasn't proper to have a festival on the Sabbath.
Quite right. I am deeply religious, so I also am thankful to God on
Thanksgiving. I really do not care who or what others thank on that
day. They can thank The Light from World of Warcraft, if they wish. I
do think it is an appropriate day to give thanks to anyone or any group
that makes your life better.
I might point out that most of the celebrants at the first Thanksgiving
in America were pagans who worshipped trees and rocks, if they
worshipped anything at all. The Pilgrims held the feast at least in
part to thank these people who helped them survive that terrible first
year.
--
Waddling Eagle
World Famous Flight Instructor
C J Campbell
>
> Thanks for putting a broad perspective on this. I wonder if Black
> Friday and/or Cyber Monday might be American 'festivals' that did
> indeed start on these shores.
Black Friday, I believe, started at Montgomery Ward. I could be wrong;
it might have been some other giant retailer that started it.
Montgomery Ward did create Rudolph, the Red-Nosed Reindeer. Nothing
more American or less religious than that. :D
As a deeply religious person, I am well aware and very thankful that a
secular America has made it possible to worship God after my own
manner. Had I been born in pre-American Europe, I almost certainly
would have been burned at the stake.
John McWilliams
No, we'll not see a reply, much less a cogent one, from the anonycoward.
--
john mcwilliams
NameHere
They only make complete sense to a Eurocentric idiot. The Native Americans
had their harvest festival many millennia before any Europeans came on the
scene. They only shared it because they felt sorry for the starving and
stupid Europeans who didn't even know how to survive on their own. Now the
Europeans are claiming it as some holiday to pay honor to their Middle-East
fucked-up god that was forced on them throughout Europe by death and threat
of death. But you go ahead and believe your Eurocentric-idiots' crap. It's
what you're all best at.
tony cooper
wrote:
You might want to read the thread before you sound off. Chris, a
poster from the UK, asked if Thanksgiving was to give thanks for the
Pilgrims safe landing in America. I replied that this was incorrect
(the first landing was over a century earlier) and that it was harvest
festival similar to the harvest festivals celebrated in Europe.
And it was. The Pilgrims were the hosts, and the Wampanoag Indians
were the guests. While some Native Americans also celebrated a
successful harvest, this particular event was hosted by immigrant
Europeans or by people of European descent in their new country.
There is nothing -centric about this observation. Societies that are
primarily agrarian celebrate a successful harvest and societies that
are primarily hunters celebrate a successful kill. This wasn't the
first harvest festival, but it was the one that was documented enough
to become an historical event.
You'll have trouble trying to pin down the origin of just about any
custom to any group. You'll usually find that the same customs have
evolved in most civilizations with remarkable similarity.
>They only shared it because they felt sorry for the starving and
>stupid Europeans who didn't even know how to survive on their own. Now the
>Europeans are claiming it as some holiday to pay honor to their Middle-East
>fucked-up god that was forced on them throughout Europe by death and threat
>of death. But you go ahead and believe your Eurocentric-idiots' crap. It's
>what you're all best at.
--
NameHere
<tony_co...@earthlink.net> wrote:
>The Pilgrims were the hosts, and the Wampanoag Indians
>were the guests.
Wow! Are YOU ever fuckingly ignorant.
rwalker
wrote:
And you, I am sure, are a towering intellect.
I suspect you're ugly and your mother dresses you funny.
Chris H
<wh...@address.info> writes
Is that your evidence to the contrary?
Chris H
<wh...@address.info> writes
That is what Tony said.
> Now the
>Europeans are claiming it as some holiday
Not this side of the Atlantic. It is an American thing.
>to pay honor to their Middle-East
>fucked-up god that was forced on them throughout Europe by death and threat
>of death. But you go ahead and believe your Eurocentric-idiots' crap. It's
>what you're all best at.
Nothing to do with Europe. It's all North American.
tony cooper
Whoa, here. There is no observed holiday in Europe called
"Thanksgiving". However, there are harvest festivals, or holidays, in
Europe.
The most observed is the Jewish holiday Sukkot, a major holiday for
Jews. From Wiki:
"Sukkot was agricultural in origin. This is evident from the biblical
name "The Feast of Ingathering," from the ceremonies accompanying it,
from the season � �The festival of the seventh month� � and occasion
of its celebration: "At the end of the year when you gather in your
labors out of the field" (Ex. 23:16); "after you have gathered in from
your threshing-floor and from your winepress" (Deut. 16:13). It was a
thanksgiving for the fruit harvest. Coming as it did at the completion
of the harvest, Sukkot was regarded as a general thanksgiving for the
bounty of nature in the year that had passed.
In England, some celebrate "Harvest Home" in September. "Lammas" is
celebrated by some in the UK. "Michaelmas", in September, is
basically a harvest festival. "Martinmas" celebrates the harvest of
the grapes.
Moving to the Continent, "Oktoberfest" is a harvest festival. In
rural Germany you have "Erntedankfest".
The point here is that there are harvest festivals in many countries.
They are not a US or North American thing. What *is* an American
thing is a harvest festival called "Thanksgiving", designated by the
government as a national holiday, and associated with turkey dinners
and store sales promotions the next day.
Y'all do the same thing we do, but differently.
Chris H
<tony_co...@earthlink.net> writes
>On Wed, 2 Dec 2009 09:02:13 +0000, Chris H <ch...@phaedsys.org> wrote:
>>That is what Tony said.
>>
>>> Now the
>>>Europeans are claiming it as some holiday
>>
>>Not this side of the Atlantic. It is an American thing.
>>
>>>to pay honor to their Middle-East
>>>fucked-up god that was forced on them throughout Europe by death and threat
>>>of death. But you go ahead and believe your Eurocentric-idiots' crap. It's
>>>what you're all best at.
>>
>>Nothing to do with Europe. It's all North American.
>
>Whoa, here. There is no observed holiday in Europe called
>"Thanksgiving". However, there are harvest festivals, or holidays, in
>Europe.
There are a whole load of them from September to November depending on
country/region/culture.
>The most observed is the Jewish holiday Sukkot, a major holiday for
>Jews. From Wiki:
It is the most observed by Jews. I have never heard of it.
>In England, some celebrate "Harvest Home" in September. "Lammas" is
>celebrated by some in the UK. "Michaelmas", in September, is
>basically a harvest festival.
These three are celebrated by some, though not by the majority of the
population. Most state schools have a Harvest Festival "service" at the
start of the day.
Lammas and Michelmas are less celebrated and only by small groups. Not a
general thing. I expect the majority of the population have never heard
of them .
> "Martinmas" celebrates the harvest of
>the grapes.
Not come across this one.
>Moving to the Continent, "Oktoberfest" is a harvest festival. In
>rural Germany you have "Erntedankfest".
Been to both.
>The point here is that there are harvest festivals in many countries.
>They are not a US or North American thing.
We agree.
> What *is* an American
>thing is a harvest festival called "Thanksgiving",
Correct.
> designated by the
>government as a national holiday, and associated with turkey dinners
>and store sales promotions the next day.
Yes
>Y'all do the same thing we do, but differently.
No... No national holiday for most of the European ones. Certainly not
in the UK. No special suppers for 90% though some more rural areas
with Parish Churches and village halls still have something.
No sales promotions etc. It usually goes completely unmarked except by
some church congregations and Pagan groups Is not the majority of the
population
John McWilliams
> In message <musch51f6qdulmbnl...@4ax.com>, tony cooper
> <tony_co...@earthlink.net> writes
>> Y'all do the same thing we do, but differently.
>
> No... No national holiday for most of the European ones. Certainly not
> in the UK. No special suppers for 90% though some more rural areas
> with Parish Churches and village halls still have something.
>
> No sales promotions etc. It usually goes completely unmarked except by
> some church congregations and Pagan groups Is not the majority of the
> population
Well, then, thank God (and Jesus) there's a Christmas in all civlilized
nations. Not only suppers, displays n such, but the biggest retailing
time of the year.
Many stores in California start their X-mas decorations at the end of
November (thus coinciding with Thanksgiving Day), complete with bilious
versions of Christmas carols n such.
Is there a noticeable cycle as to when European stores, antepodean
stores, S. American stores start their X-mas buying (selling) season.
(We already know what Canada does- just like U.S.)
--
john mcwilliams
tony cooper
>
>>Y'all do the same thing we do, but differently.
>
>No... No national holiday for most of the European ones.
Jeez, Chris. I specifically stated that one of the major differences
is that we have a designated national holiday coinciding with a
harvest festival and Europe does not.
No American, to my knowledge, thinks that "Thanksgiving" - as we
celebrate it - is an international holiday.
George Kerby
On 12/1/09 9:55 PM, in article 69pbh5lakcovsvbpv...@4ax.com,
"NameHere" <wh...@address.info> wrote:
SOMEONE here needs a bit of Anger Management, don't they?
NameHere
No shit Sherlock! Whenever did I say "as practiced in Europe"? I said
EUROPEANS, which means they can be anywhere. In this instance, American
Europeans.
Get a fuckin' clue, will yas?
Bottom line: "Thanks for Giving" (Modern day "Thanksgiving") was NEVER a
European invented NOR christian holiday. But lately, yes, they love just
being culture-vultures. It's what they were taught to be once christianity
was forced onto all of them throughout all of Europe. Just like all
christians--100% pure hypocrites who love nothing better than to steal,
then twist and bastardize all others' holidays and beliefs. Scum-sucking
leaches is all they are and will ever be.
tony cooper
>>>Nothing to do with Europe. It's all North American.
>>
>>Whoa, here. There is no observed holiday in Europe called
>>"Thanksgiving". However, there are harvest festivals, or holidays, in
>>Europe.
>
>There are a whole load of them from September to November depending on
>country/region/culture.
>
>>The most observed is the Jewish holiday Sukkot, a major holiday for
>>Jews. From Wiki:
>
>It is the most observed by Jews. I have never heard of it.
If you are not familiar with Sukkot, or Ramadan, or Tet, or Cinco de
Mayo, or Diwali, or Independence Day, or any major holiday celebrated
by cultures that you are not part of, then that's you being insular
and uninformed.
Chris H
<jp...@comcast.net> writes
>Chris H wrote:
>> In message <musch51f6qdulmbnl...@4ax.com>, tony cooper
>> <tony_co...@earthlink.net> writes
>
>>> Y'all do the same thing we do, but differently.
>> No... No national holiday for most of the European ones. Certainly
>>not
>> in the UK. No special suppers for 90% though some more rural areas
>> with Parish Churches and village halls still have something.
>> No sales promotions etc. It usually goes completely unmarked except
>>by
>> some church congregations and Pagan groups Is not the majority of the
>> population
>
>Well, then, thank God (and Jesus) there's a Christmas in all civlilized
>nations.
But most of "Christmas" is pagan.... The date, the feasts, the symbols
(apart from the cross) most of the festivities etc
> Not only suppers, displays n such, but the biggest retailing time of
>the year.
True.. It is the festival of consumption.
>Many stores in California start their X-mas decorations at the end of
>November (thus coinciding with Thanksgiving Day), complete with bilious
>versions of Christmas carols n such.
Sounds reasonable.
>Is there a noticeable cycle as to when European stores, antepodean
>stores, S. American stores start their X-mas buying (selling) season.
>(We already know what Canada does- just like U.S.)
Well do remember that you should exchange presents on the 6th of
December. (Not the 25th) Other celebrate things that run the first few
weeks of December. so In Europe Christmas appears to be drawn out over
most of December.
So Whilst Christmas may appear to start early in many places it also
finishes before "Christmas" :-)
Chris H
<tony_co...@earthlink.net> writes
>On Wed, 2 Dec 2009 15:16:16 +0000, Chris H <ch...@phaedsys.org> wrote:
>
>>
>>>Y'all do the same thing we do, but differently.
>>
>>No... No national holiday for most of the European ones.
>
>Jeez, Chris. I specifically stated that one of the major differences
>is that we have a designated national holiday coinciding with a
>harvest festival and Europe does not.
Sorry-missunderstood.
>No American, to my knowledge, thinks that "Thanksgiving" - as we
>celebrate it - is an international holiday.
There are some... (the ones that have the "rest of the world" as a hazy
vision of swamps, jungles, deserts and mud huts in a space about the
size of Texas. :-))
Chris H
<wh...@address.info> writes
American Europeans? WFT is that?
>Bottom line: "Thanks for Giving" (Modern day "Thanksgiving") was NEVER a
>European invented NOR christian holiday.
Fair enough.. It was a native Indian festival.
> But lately, yes, they love just
>being culture-vultures. It's what they were taught to be once christianity
>was forced onto all of them throughout all of Europe.
Yes. We agree.
>Just like all
>christians--100% pure hypocrites who love nothing better than to steal,
>then twist and bastardize all others' holidays and beliefs. Scum-sucking
>leaches is all they are and will ever be.
We agree again.
Chris H
<tony_co...@earthlink.net> writes
>On Wed, 2 Dec 2009 15:16:16 +0000, Chris H <ch...@phaedsys.org> wrote:
>
>>>>Nothing to do with Europe. It's all North American.
>>>
>>>Whoa, here. There is no observed holiday in Europe called
>>>"Thanksgiving". However, there are harvest festivals, or holidays, in
>>>Europe.
>>
>>There are a whole load of them from September to November depending on
>>country/region/culture.
>>
>>>The most observed is the Jewish holiday Sukkot, a major holiday for
>>>Jews. From Wiki:
>>
>>It is the most observed by Jews. I have never heard of it.
>
>If you are not familiar with Sukkot, or Ramadan,
> or Tet, or Cinco de
>Mayo, or Diwali,
Diwail is widely celebrated in the UK as is Ede (both of them)
> or Independence Day,
Which/whose independance day?
> or any major holiday celebrated
>by cultures that you are not part of, then that's you being insular
>and uninformed.
Sorry a lot of them are celebrated in the UK and many others you did not
mention and I know of many others in Europe I had just not heard of or
seen (or remembered hearing or seeing) Sukkot.
tony cooper
>In message <2g3dh5psmqpft7vin...@4ax.com>, tony cooper
><tony_co...@earthlink.net> writes
>>On Wed, 2 Dec 2009 15:16:16 +0000, Chris H <ch...@phaedsys.org> wrote:
>>
>>>
>>>>Y'all do the same thing we do, but differently.
>>>
>>>No... No national holiday for most of the European ones.
>>
>>Jeez, Chris. I specifically stated that one of the major differences
>>is that we have a designated national holiday coinciding with a
>>harvest festival and Europe does not.
>
>Sorry-missunderstood.
>
>>No American, to my knowledge, thinks that "Thanksgiving" - as we
>>celebrate it - is an international holiday.
>
>There are some... (the ones that have the "rest of the world" as a hazy
>vision of swamps, jungles, deserts and mud huts in a space about the
>size of Texas. :-))
Sure, there are some, but you have your village idiots too. You have
people who visualize the US as it is shown on the American television
shows and movies you watch.
I've made several trips to the UK and Europe. There's always someone
who thinks that I either live in a Hollywood-style mansion or a slum.
There's always someone who asks me how many drive-by shootings I've
witnessed or how many times I've been mugged (Zero, for both).
Whether it's a foreign culture or a different religion, there are
people who have ridiculous misconceptions about that which they are
not part of. I don't think that's any more an American characteristic
that it is a characteristic of any country.
NameHere
>In message <qg3dh5h0tsu356f07...@4ax.com>, NameHere
><wh...@address.info> writes
>>On Wed, 2 Dec 2009 09:02:13 +0000, Chris H <ch...@phaedsys.org> wrote:
>>
>>>> Now the
>>>>Europeans are claiming it as some holiday
>>>
>>>Not this side of the Atlantic. It is an American thing.
>>>
>>>>to pay honor to their Middle-East
>>>>fucked-up god that was forced on them throughout Europe by death and threat
>>>>of death. But you go ahead and believe your Eurocentric-idiots' crap. It's
>>>>what you're all best at.
>>>
>>>Nothing to do with Europe. It's all North American.
>>
>>No shit Sherlock! Whenever did I say "as practiced in Europe"? I said
>>EUROPEANS, which means they can be anywhere. In this instance, American
>>Europeans.
>
>American Europeans? WFT is that?
Would you prefer European Americans?
>
>>Bottom line: "Thanks for Giving" (Modern day "Thanksgiving") was NEVER a
>>European invented NOR christian holiday.
>
>Fair enough.. It was a native Indian festival.
>
For your edification:
"Native Americans" are a proud bunch. They despise the use of "Indian"
today to describe their many tribes/nations. Not only is "Indian" an insult
to all Europeans, because Columbus was too fuckingly stupid to even know
what continent he was on, but it is an insult to all Native Americans as
well. Due to Columbus' cohorts and further invaders of this land massacring
Native Americans willy-nilly in accordance with their beliefs in their
christian god, creating human sacrifices of all Native Americans to appease
their beliefs in a christian god.
However, "Native American" is not correct either. Unless you know the
specific tribe that you are addressing to be completely respectful, (which
Nation of Native Americans, i.e. Ojibwa, Cherokee, Seminole, Miccosukee,
Hopi, etc.), they tend to prefer "First-Nations People" as a catch-all
title for all "Native Americans" that live in North America. As that shows
them the respect they deserve and describes them the most accurately in the
English language. These continents weren't even named the "Americas" when
they first inhabited this land, so "Native Americans" is also insulting.
The ONLY reason that they grudgingly and hatefully still use the title
"Indian" today, is due to how many treaties were signed with the Europeans
having used that name. The disuse of "Indian" could make many of those
treaties null and void in the future. A catch-22 that only exemplifies and
amplifies the ignorance, christian barbarism, and stupidity of all European
cultures that they have to still put up with today.
tony cooper
>>Bottom line: "Thanks for Giving" (Modern day "Thanksgiving") was NEVER a
>>European invented NOR christian holiday.
>
>Fair enough.. It was a native Indian festival.
Sometimes I despair of your inability to process information.
Thanksgiving was *never* a native Indian festival. Some (American)
Indian tribes celebrated the harvest. They never called it
Thanksgiving. They never set aside a particular day of the year to
celebrate. They never thought the turkey should be the main course of
choice.
Thanksgiving, as we celebrate it today in the US, *evolved* from the
custom of getting together to rejoice in a successful harvest and to
thank whatever God or spirits or conditions that contributed to that
success. Squanto (the native Indian believed to be at that 1621
get-together) or Edward Winslow (the man who wrote in his journal
about that day in 1621) wouldn't recognize the holiday we celebrate
today.
tony cooper
wrote:
>For your edification:
>
>"Native Americans" are a proud bunch. They despise the use of "Indian"
>today to describe their many tribes/nations. Not only is "Indian" an insult
>to all Europeans, because Columbus was too fuckingly stupid to even know
>what continent he was on, but it is an insult to all Native Americans as
>well. Due to Columbus' cohorts and further invaders of this land massacring
>Native Americans willy-nilly in accordance with their beliefs in their
>christian god, creating human sacrifices of all Native Americans to appease
>their beliefs in a christian god.
Absolute nonsense. The native Americans were not slaughtered to
further Christianity. The native Americans were slaughtered and
driven away because they occupied land, and attempted to defend their
right to live on that land, by the settlers. The motivation was
greed, not God.
The settlers were not Oliver Cromwell, who massacred my ancestors
because they were of a different faith, or Urban II, who sent
Christians to the Holy Land to defeat the infidels in the name of The
Church. The settlers wanted the land.
NameHere
<tony_co...@earthlink.net> wrote:
>On Wed, 2 Dec 2009 18:29:15 +0000, Chris H <ch...@phaedsys.org> wrote:
>
>>>Bottom line: "Thanks for Giving" (Modern day "Thanksgiving") was NEVER a
>>>European invented NOR christian holiday.
>>
>>Fair enough.. It was a native Indian festival.
>
>Sometimes I despair of your inability to process information.
>Thanksgiving was *never* a native Indian festival. Some (American)
>Indian tribes celebrated the harvest.
YOU are a fucking MORON.
tony cooper
wrote:
I'll give your opinion the consideration it deserves.
Walter Banks
John McWilliams wrote:
> Is there a noticeable cycle as to when European stores, antepodean
> stores, S. American stores start their X-mas buying (selling) season.
> (We already know what Canada does- just like U.S.)
Actually Canada is more diversified than the US. Quebec does .. well
Quebec is unique. Western Canada has a lot of Ukrainians with a
different schedule. Ontario starts after Thanksgiving just like the US
except that Canada celebrates Thanksgiving a month earlier than the
US so we get the better turkeys :) and have more time to shop
before Christmas.
Seasons greetings
Walter..
John McWilliams
Thanks, Walter, and back to you on the greetings. It seems almost
unusual to ask a question and get a great answer.
--
john mcwilliams