Digital SLRs and Cold Temps?
Pegleg
display screens in colder (below freezing) temps?
And, how is it best to manage bringing a cold slr
back into a warm home to avoid condensation. The
only guidance I am familiar with is to put the
camera in a sealed plastic bag prior to bringing
it inside.
Tx,
Brian
Canon EOS 50D
Brian Sullivan
"Pegleg" <brian.peg...@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:hgiq3s$2lg$1...@pegleg.eternal-september.org...
Never really paid much attention to it one way or the other -- take mine
skiing and out in the cold often and have never had a problem using it in
the cold, or bringing it in out of the cold and using it. Mind you I do try
to avoid skiing or walking when it is colder than -20C. I use an Off Trail
bag that usually has desiccant pack in it but I don't know if that makes a
difference or not.
Battery consumption is more in the cold so they say but have never really
noticed.
Alan Browne
> "Pegleg"<brian.peg...@gmail.com> wrote in message
> news:hgiq3s$2lg$1...@pegleg.eternal-september.org...
>> What experience do folks here have with the display screens in colder
>> (below freezing) temps?
To date, no issue down to about -20C - though not usually outside for
very long at those temps doing photography. Camera is in the bag, which
is insulated (padding) so it retains some heat. From there I've shot
about 30 - 45 minutes with no issue in those temps.
I noticed yesterday that my car GPS, cold soaked at -18C all night,
started up immediately with no effect on the LCD display (it was not
sluggish or missing anything).
>> And, how is it best to manage bringing a cold slr back into a warm home to
>> avoid condensation. The only guidance I am familiar with is to put the
>> camera in a sealed plastic bag prior to bringing it inside.
I put my entire camera bag into a garbage bag (that I always have in the
camera bag, year 'round), come in and leave it all alone for a couple
hours. The camera bag is well padded and this slows down the warmup time.
Before coming in, I sometimes remember to remove the data cards so I can
upload them w/o waiting.
Note that if camera gear has been in a well air conditioned car long
enough and you get out with it in hot humid conditions, you will get the
same effect.
Floyd L. Davidson
>What experience do folks here have with the
>display screens in colder (below freezing) temps?
LCD screens used to be a problem (early 90's?), but I
haven't heard of any significant trouble with those used
on DSLR's.
>And, how is it best to manage bringing a cold slr
>back into a warm home to avoid condensation. The
>only guidance I am familiar with is to put the
>camera in a sealed plastic bag prior to bringing
>it inside.
The need is to prevent warm (moist) inside air from coming
into contact with a cold camera body. If the air is cooled
enough the moisture will condense and form water droplets on
the camera. (The "dew point" temperature, where the relative
humidity for the existing moisture becomes 100%.)
Even wrapping the camera in a coat, or just putting it
inside a camera bag, will suffice as long as it blocks
air exchange around the camera. I commonly wrap a
camera in a plastic grocery bag, just because it's
conveniently available.
The ideal protection is a kitchen sized trash bag. The
air can be squeezed out of it (air is good insulation)
to allow the camera to warm up quicker. The trash bag
also has the advantage that if you want to retrieve a
memory card from the camera it is easy to slide one hand
down into the bag and get the card without introducing
any warm air into the bag. That is not possible if
something smaller, like a ziplock bag, is used.
(Ziplock bags are, however, very nice to hold small
things like lenses, teleconverters, cleaning supplies,
flash units, etc.)
Note that it does not have to be very cold outside to
have a problem if the inside is very moist. At 0C/32F a
camera will end up soaking wet if brought into a house
where it is very moist (cooking, bathing, washing
clothes... are all things that can elevate the relative
humidity inside a house to extremes).
Also note that the camera need not be warmed up to room
temperature. It merely has to be higher than the dew
point temperature, which will usually be just above
freezing. Hence if the camera gets above about 4C/40F
it's good enough.
--
Floyd L. Davidson <http://www.apaflo.com/floyd_davidson>
Ukpeagvik (Barrow, Alaska) fl...@apaflo.com
Chris Malcolm
I asked a dessicant maker about that, and was told that to do any
effective drying quite quickly, such as overnight, you need a
dessicant pack of about the same size as the camera. The little
dessicant packs that come in packing boxes aren't meant to dry out
damp cameras, they're just meant to keep the dry in-box packing
atmosphere in the sealed box dry as it's shipped round the world.
> Battery consumption is more in the cold so they say but have never really
> noticed.
Battery comsumption isn't more in the cold, it's the effective battery
charge which is reduced in the cold (and restored as you warm them
up). That's why keeping spare batteries warm in inside pockets helps.
--
Chris Malcolm
Pegleg
> I asked a dessicant maker about that, and was told that to do any
> effective drying quite quickly, such as overnight, you need a
> dessicant pack of about the same size as the camera. The little
> dessicant packs that come in packing boxes aren't meant to dry out
> damp cameras, they're just meant to keep the dry in-box packing
> atmosphere in the sealed box dry as it's shipped round the world.
Thanks for the response but I wasn't asking about
how to dry a camera out. I was asking for methods
used to avoid getting to the point where you have
to dry it out,,,i.e. a slowed warming process when
coming in from cold temps to avoid forming any
condensation.
Brian
C J Campbell
> What experience do folks here have with the display screens in colder
> (below freezing) temps?
I haven't had any problems with it at all.
>
> And, how is it best to manage bringing a cold slr back into a warm home
> to avoid condensation. The only guidance I am familiar with is to put
> the camera in a sealed plastic bag prior to bringing it inside.
I tried using anti-fog cloths so that I could quickly go from an air
conditioned car to warm, humid tropical air. However, this did not
prevent the mirror, viewfinder, and in some cases internal elements of
the lens from fogging. You do not want to use an anti-fog cloth on your
mirror or focusing screen because that is a good way to introduce lint
into the interior of the camera and that lint will inevitably end up on
the sensor. The only solution was to turn off the air conditioning and
roll down the windows.
Since you probably don't want to turn off the heat and open all the
doors and windows of your house, the only thing you can do is wrap the
camera in something that will keep moist air away from it. I usually
use my jacket. A garbage sack works well.
--
Waddling Eagle
World Famous Flight Instructor
Floyd L. Davidson
The speed of the process has no significant effect on
condensation. And, as far as the dessicant goes, the
dryness of the (cold) air in the bag where the camera
is, also has no significance!
The problem is the warm inside air holds more moisture
(as vapor) than colder outside air. If the warm air is
cooled to the point where it *can't* hold the moisture
that it has, the moisture condenses out as water.
Basically, with any given amount of moisture, the
Relative Humidity goes up as the temperature goes down.
The point at which it becomes 100% Relative Humidity is
called the "dew point" temperature. And that is when
condensation starts.
The problem for a cold camera brought inside is that
warm inside air touching it cools down and moisture condenses
on the camera. *The* *way* *to* *avoid* *that* *is* *to* *prevent* *warm*
*air* *from* *touching* *the* *camera*, and usually that is done
by keeping the camera inside a camera bag or putting it
inside a plastic bag until it is warm enough (above the
dew point temperature).
The cold air that goes along with the camera when you
originally put it into a bag hasn't got enough moisture
to condense at that temperature (unless you are standing
in a fog bank when you do this!). Hence putting a
dessecant into the bag to remove moisture from that air
will not accomplish anything useful in terms of
preventing condensation on the camera.
LOL!
BWAHAHAAHAHAHAAAAAAAA!!!!!
Next time, don't open up that garbage sack again. Put it to use for its
original purpose. That's all it contains at this point -- GARBAGE.
And they still don't get why I ditched every last piece of shit DSLR gear
long ago.
Yes, folks!
All DSLR-Trolls are JUST -- THAT -- AMAZINGLY -- FUCKING -- STOOPID.
LOL!!
-hh
>
> The problem for a cold camera brought inside is that
> warm inside air touching it cools down and moisture condenses
> on the camera.
Which isn't a process unique to cameras - - it will happen just as
readily on a cold brick or set of steel socket wrenches. Is just
that the resultant fogging on optical systems (including eyeglasses)
generally are more noticeable to us.
> *The* *way* *to* *avoid* *that* *is* *to* *prevent* *warm*
> *air* *from* *touching* *the* *camera*, and usually that is done
> by keeping the camera inside a camera bag or putting it
> inside a plastic bag until it is warm enough (above the
> dew point temperature).
Its also possible to use warm, dry (eg, dehumidified) forced air,
which will result in a much more rapid thermal equalization. However,
this can also induce unhealthy thermal stress gradients, so care must
be taken...plus its generally more suitable for small simple items
that don't have internal voids (internal condensation): a common
trick in the underwater photography world is to point a hair dryer
into the housing to make it dry & toasty just before inserting the
camera and sealing up the unit (plus a small anti-desiccant). Thus,
when the UW rig is immersed in cooler water, there's "no" (actually:
less) humidity inside the sealed case for which condensation could
form.
> The cold air that goes along with the camera when you
> originally put it into a bag hasn't got enough moisture
> to condense at that temperature (unless you are standing
> in a fog bank when you do this!). Hence putting a
> dessecant into the bag to remove moisture from that air
> will not accomplish anything useful in terms of
> preventing condensation on the camera.
One simple approach would be to put your entire camera while still in
its camera bag inside of a sealed ziplock and then give it plenty of
time to thermally equalize. As a rule of thumb, put the ziplock on
while you're still in the colder environment, as this will result in
lower humidity.
-hh
Robert Spanjaard
> What experience do folks here have with the display screens in colder
> (below freezing) temps?
No problems with my EOS 10D at all on my last trip:
http://www.arumes.com/temp/sd_winter/
> And, how is it best to manage bringing a cold slr back into a warm home
> to avoid condensation. The only guidance I am familiar with is to put
> the camera in a sealed plastic bag prior to bringing it inside.
I just keep it stored in the backpack for a couple of hours, so it warms
up slowly.
--
Regards, Robert http://www.arumes.com
Floyd L. Davidson
>Floyd L. Davidson wrote:
...
All the rest was pretty much correct, though of virtually
no real significance to this discussion.
However, the following isn't quite right.
>> The cold air that goes along with the camera when you
>> originally put it into a bag hasn't got enough moisture
>> to condense at that temperature (unless you are standing
>> in a fog bank when you do this!). �Hence putting a
>> dessecant into the bag to remove moisture from that air
>> will not accomplish anything useful in terms of
>> preventing condensation on the camera.
>
>One simple approach would be to put your entire camera while still in
>its camera bag inside of a sealed ziplock and then give it plenty of
>time to thermally equalize. As a rule of thumb, put the ziplock on
>while you're still in the colder environment, as this will result in
>lower humidity.
A sealed ziplock bag is unnecessary. The camera bag
itself will prevent warm most air from reaching the
camera and other equipment inside it. If the camera bag
is at all insulated (which padding will in fact
accomplish), the outside of the bag will almost
immediately come up to room temperature, and warm moist
air will never penetrate through temperature gradient
(hence no need for a vapor barrier at all).
However, the camera bag and its insulation means the
equipment inside will take a considerable time to warm
up, so the "plenty of time" is significant.
The quicker way to accomplish warming is, while in the
cold, take the camera out of the camera bag and put it
into a trash bag (not a ziplock, for reasons previously
discussed). Squeeze all the air out of the bag, and
then take it inside. Set the bag in a location that is
warm and has good air circulation to facilitate rapid
warming.
Chris Malcolm
You're right about the problems of preventing condensation when moving
the camera from a cold dry atmosphere to a warm one. Sometimes cold
outdoors photography takes place in cold wet conditions however, and
you end up with a camera damp from fog, snow, or rain. When
backpacking and living in a tent it can be impossible to get to warm
dry conditions for days. So it's very handy to have a bag or box you
can put a cold damp camera in at the end of the day, and the next
morning take out a dry camera. That's what you need the very large
dessicant bags for, for drying out a wet camera in wet
conditions. That can stop the migration of wetness from the relatively
harmless outside surfaces of the camera to the electronic insides
where it can cause problems.
And not just cameras. Such a dessicating box or bag which is strong
enough to dry wet things out is very useful when trying to keep cell
phones, radios, and other sensitive electronics going in persistently
wet conditions.
--
Chris Malcolm
Pete D
"LOL!" <l...@lol.org> wrote in message
news:kbusi5licih333kfe...@4ax.com...
Should have bought good D-SLR gear then Mr Palmer.......
Pete D
"Pegleg" <brian.peg...@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:hgiq3s$2lg$1...@pegleg.eternal-september.org...
It is not only D-SLRs that will do this, what you ned is a camera that is
environmentally sealed, both my K-7 and my W80 are sealed and rated to minus
10 C.
DanP
> "LOL!" <l...@lol.org> wrote in message
>
> news:kbusi5licih333kfe...@4ax.com...
>
>
>
>
>
> > On Sun, 20 Dec 2009 08:46:30 -0800, C J Campbell
With or without good DSLR he will remain a screaming idiot.
Pete D
>
> > Next time, don't open up that garbage sack again. Put it to use for its
> > original purpose. That's all it contains at this point -- GARBAGE.
>
> > And they still don't get why I ditched every last piece of shit DSLR
> > gear
> > long ago.
>
> Should have bought good D-SLR gear then Mr Palmer.......
<<With or without good DSLR he will remain a screaming idiot.
Yes he will.
Martin Brown
> On Sun, 20 Dec 2009 08:46:30 -0800, C J Campbell
> <christophercam...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>
>> On 2009-12-19 07:05:31 -0800, Pegleg <brian.peg...@gmail.com> said:
>>
>>> What experience do folks here have with the display screens in colder
>>> (below freezing) temps?
>> I haven't had any problems with it at all.
Main problem I get is in very cold temperatures the batteries fail
prematurely and require replacement with a warm set from my inside
jacket pocket. Unfortunately to get the cold ones up to spec again they
have to go in the inside pocket. It isn't just SLRs that fail this way.
Anything with a battery in it. There is some point to clockwork still -
although you do also get wind-on problems with film going brittle...
>>> And, how is it best to manage bringing a cold slr back into a warm home
>>> to avoid condensation. The only guidance I am familiar with is to put
>>> the camera in a sealed plastic bag prior to bringing it inside.
Sealed bag or box and some dessicant in it.
>> I tried using anti-fog cloths so that I could quickly go from an air
>> conditioned car to warm, humid tropical air. However, this did not
>> prevent the mirror, viewfinder, and in some cases internal elements of
>> the lens from fogging. You do not want to use an anti-fog cloth on your
>> mirror or focusing screen because that is a good way to introduce lint
>> into the interior of the camera and that lint will inevitably end up on
>> the sensor. The only solution was to turn off the air conditioning and
>> roll down the windows.
>>
>> Since you probably don't want to turn off the heat and open all the
>> doors and windows of your house, the only thing you can do is wrap the
>> camera in something that will keep moist air away from it. I usually
>> use my jacket. A garbage sack works well.
>
> BWAHAHAAHAHAHAAAAAAAA!!!!!
>
> Next time, don't open up that garbage sack again. Put it to use for its
> original purpose. That's all it contains at this point -- GARBAGE.
>
> And they still don't get why I ditched every last piece of shit DSLR gear
> long ago.
You never owned any to begin with...
Regards,
Martin Brown
LOL!
If only that were true. Then I could post just as much misinformation and
hyperbolic psychotic crap as the rest of you wannabe pretend-photographers
post daily.
egbert_no_bacon
> On Mon, 21 Dec 2009 20:29:01 +0000, Martin Brown
>
>
>
>
>
> <|||newspam...@nezumi.demon.co.uk> wrote:
> >LOL! wrote:
> >> On Sun, 20 Dec 2009 08:46:30 -0800, C J Campbell
>
> - Show quoted text -
you are wrong here
you can post crap because as far as i see this group is unmoderated
-hh
> -hh <recscuba_goo...@huntzinger.com> wrote:
> >Floyd L. Davidson wrote:
>
> ...
>
> All the rest was pretty much correct, though of virtually
> no real significance to this discussion.
>
> However, the following isn't quite right.
>
> A sealed ziplock bag is unnecessary.
Agree that many times, it isn't and one can get by with less.
> The camera bag
> itself will prevent warm most air from reaching the
> camera and other equipment inside it. If the camera bag
> is at all insulated (which padding will in fact
> accomplish), the outside of the bag will almost
> immediately come up to room temperature, and warm moist
> air will never penetrate through temperature gradient
> (hence no need for a vapor barrier at all).
The zipped camera bag is the 'barrier', although its not as good as
others.
> However, the camera bag and its insulation means the
> equipment inside will take a considerable time to warm
> up, so the "plenty of time" is significant.
Agreed. It also works both ways, in that it can slow the rate at
which the camera will cool off when it is temporarily brought into a
cooler place - - this is more commonly the situation of an air
conditioned room -vs- going outside in the tropics, when you don't
want to have the camera get cooled off when its transiently stored in
the room for lunch or something.
> The quicker way to accomplish warming is, while in the
> cold, take the camera out of the camera bag and put it
> into a trash bag (not a ziplock, for reasons previously
> discussed). Squeeze all the air out of the bag, and
> then take it inside. Set the bag in a location that is
> warm and has good air circulation to facilitate rapid
> warming.
This is merely a trade-off of convenience for other factors (eg,
battery/card swaps) versus the risk management of utterly minimizing
any possible warm air exchange, for which there is no singular utterly
correct/incorrect. From a common sense perspective, our perceptions
of risk-vs-benefit will result in how long we decide to let the camera
sit unmolested regardless of how big the bag is, or the degree to
which it is sealed against air exchange, etc.
For example, ziplock bags are transparent, so one can "peek" to make
sure that the system didn't accidentally get contaminated with water,
etc. The main thing is to know & understand the causality of the
condensation and subsequently mitigate the risks that its presence
represents...there's always going to be more than one way to skin the
cat.
-hh