K-14 Oopsies! (yeah, you know in BW chemistry)
Some Dude
I have a question regarding some "fun" with developing K14process
(KP40) in regular BW chemistry. I did an 8 hour development (hey,
why not?) in 1/2 tsp rodinal with 1/2 tsp sodium sulfite.
Once washed, etc I took the film out of the spool and the emulsion
proceeded to run like water down the strip.
I know, of course, this isn't the right thing to do but..Out of
curiosity, how come the emulsion turned to mush?
Thanks!
Cheers,
-sd
http://www.zoom.sh
Richard Knoppow
"Some Dude" <bl...@foo.net> wrote in message
news:ph59q05caqa943fr9...@4ax.com...
type of anti-halation backing known as Remjet, it also used
on some motion picture films. In normal processing its blown
off the back of the film with a water spray. When small
quantities of film are processed it must be removed by
soaking the film in a carbonate solution and then wiping it
off. Rodinal is quite alkaline so I think what you are
seeing is the Remjet coming off. Try soaking the film in
water for a few minutes and swabbing with cotton balls, you
may be able to get this stuff off.
Kodachrome should develop to a black and white negative
image with a yellow cast due to the yellow filter layer
which will remain. The filter is made of extremely finely
devided silver (colloidal silver) and is normally removed
with the silver images during the bleaching step. You might
be able to remove it without damaging the image by using the
bleach Kodak recommends for removing dichroic fog, which is
also composed of colloidal silver. This consistes of fresh
film strength rapid fixer with 15 grams per liter of Citric
acid added. Bleach it in this but watch it carefully for
reduction of the image. The treatment can be repeated. After
the bleaching treat the film in Kodak wash aid and wash as
directed.
You can print from the negatives without removing the
filter but you will have to use panchromatic paper such as
Kodak Panalure Select because the yellow filter will remove
most of the blue light B&W papers are sensitive to. Its
possible it may print on variable contrast paper but
probably with very low contrast due to the green light
exposure.
--
---
Richard Knoppow
Los Angeles, CA, USA
dick...@ix.netcom.com
Some Dude
Actually I do a LOT of extended development. Its not uncommon for me
to do 24 hour development using bw film with <10ml of rodinal in a
300ml tank with (what I consider) great results.
I think what Richard said it very likely the answer, actually. Upon
further inspection of the KP40 "negatives" I can clearly see that the
base side of the film is smeared but the emulsion side has clear frame
spacing marks on it. The image is so dark that you cannot even pass
light through it with a light table. With a 2 million candlepower
spot beam, however, I can clearly see that there is a latent image
there just waiting to get out.
So, in his description about bleaching the film it would make sense
that it would bring the image out. So I shall snip off a section and
try it out and report back!
Thanks for the response.
On 24 Nov 2004 14:02:20 -0800, in...@processc22.co.uk ('Process C-22')
wrote:
>sd,
>
>Glad you had some fun (that's what it is all about!) but here is your
>problem...
>
>Imagine you bought some nice crispy freshly cooked french fries. Now
>place them in water for eight hours, and see if they have turned to
>mush...!
>
>Photographic emulsion is organic gelatin, basically, and
>expands/swells on contact with water, but in this form does not
>dissolve - perfect for film. In prolonged contact with liquid, the
>emulsion will swell too much, and may strip from the film. Age causes
>emulsion to be more susceptible to this - never clean a 1920's neg in
>water !
>
>You can indeed develop new K-14 in B/W dev, just try 15min @ 20degrees
>C with D-76. Comes out quite well, but high contrast. You will get a
>very yellow/magenta base which is the yellow filter, this can be
>carefully bleached with dilute farmers reducer or similar. You will
>need to wipe and rinse off the remjet backing with a clean damp cloth
>and running water.
>
>Experiment!
>
>Dominic Roberts, Process C-22
>http://www.processc22.co.uk
>
>
>Some Dude <bl...@foo.net> wrote in message news:<ph59q05caqa943fr9...@4ax.com>...
Cheers,
-sd
http://www.zoom.sh
Process C-22
Glad you had some fun (that's what it is all about!) but here is your
problem...
Imagine you bought some nice crispy freshly cooked french fries. Now
place them in water for eight hours, and see if they have turned to
mush...!
Photographic emulsion is organic gelatin, basically, and
expands/swells on contact with water, but in this form does not
dissolve - perfect for film. In prolonged contact with liquid, the
emulsion will swell too much, and may strip from the film. Age causes
emulsion to be more susceptible to this - never clean a 1920's neg in
water !
You can indeed develop new K-14 in B/W dev, just try 15min @ 20degrees
C with D-76. Comes out quite well, but high contrast. You will get a
very yellow/magenta base which is the yellow filter, this can be
carefully bleached with dilute farmers reducer or similar. You will
need to wipe and rinse off the remjet backing with a clean damp cloth
and running water.
Experiment!
Dominic Roberts, Process C-22
http://www.processc22.co.uk
Some Dude <bl...@foo.net> wrote in message news:<ph59q05caqa943fr9...@4ax.com>...
Richard Knoppow
"Some Dude" <so...@dude.net> wrote in message
news:nc2aq0h4n0u5tslg7...@4ax.com...
back of the film with stock Dektol should work. Rinse it for
a few minutes afterward. If the image is really that dark
its probably much overdeveloped. This will take a much
stronger reducer than the fixer with citric acid to deal
with. There are many reducer formulas but Farmer's is
probably the safest one to try first. I am not sure Kodak
still puts it up in packets, if so that's the easiest way to
obtain it. For overdeveloped negatives the two parts of
Farmer's are used separately. This tends to reduce the more
dense areas faster than the less dense so reduced contrast.
When the bleach and hypo are combined it tends to reduce all
densities about equally which is more suitable for
overexposed negatives. After using either form the film
should be refixed in regular fixer and washed.
There are other effecgive reducers. I will post formulas
for some if desired, but, AFAIK, Kodak Farmer's Reducer is
the only one currently available packaged. BTW, this reducer
should also remove the yellow filter layer.
Some Dude
the solution for many hours now and I don't see any bleaching. Still
opaque as you could imagine :)
Is it too late after the film has dried?
I don't use a hardening fixer...
Thanks Richard...
Cheers,
-sd
http://www.zoom.sh
Richard Knoppow
>I tried the previous recipe you recommended and I've had
>the film in
> the solution for many hours now and I don't see any
> bleaching. Still
> opaque as you could imagine :)
>
> Is it too late after the film has dried?
>
> I don't use a hardening fixer...
>
>
> Thanks Richard...
>
> On Wed, 24 Nov 2004 15:59:32 -0800, "Richard Knoppow"
> <dick...@ix.netcom.com> wrote:
>
>>
matters. It _should_ come off in a mildly alkaline solution
with a little help by swabbing.
If you mean the silver image it should make no difference
whatever. Farmer's should work in a few minutes. In fact, it
doesn't last very long once mixed.
I am not sure I understood right what you have. I read it
that the film is very opaque but has clear areas between
frames but has some smudged material on the back, is that
correct? I am guessing the smudged material is residual
Remjet. The film _should_ also still have the yellow filter
layer so the clear areas should show at least some yellowish
coloring. It is _possible_ this was bleached by the fixing
bath if you used an acid _rapid_ fixer. Non-hardining fixing
baths can still be acid. Did you use a packaged fixer, if so
what kind? If mixed from a formula does it call for any sort
of acid? Acid rapid fixing baths have some bleaching
property for metallic silver. When neutral or alkaline they
do not bleach. Sodium thiosulfate fixing baths can also
cause some image bleaching but it takes them hours.
Can you try scratching away some of whatever is on the
film? Just a small area to tell which side its on. This is
very puzzling. Developing Kodachrome to a B&W negative has
been done often where the film was of an older type than can
be currently processed. Usually, the development is done in
D-76. I don't remember the suggested times but there is some
info on the web. Try Google to find this.
Robert Vervoordt
<dick...@ix.netcom.com> wrote:
I have done this a lot. If the RemJet has dried, it takes a lot more
time soaking in the removal bath: Dektol, Carbonate or reused D-76.
The biggest problem is when some of the Remjet has dried on the
emulsion side and might be slightly embedded in the upper layer of the
film. This needs a lot of soaking and gentle swabbing. You have to
look closely to determine if it is finally removed, after first
removing the black stuff from the base; mainly to be able to see the
specks still on the emulsion side.
If you're going to do this again, really rub all the RemJet from both
sides of the film when it is in the stop bath. I used my fingers at
that point, and it always worked well.
Reducer advice is well put. One caveat is to be careful of overuse of
mived Farmer's, as the fine detail in the shadows can bleach out very
quickly. This is one reason single Solution Farmer's is able to give
an increase in contrast. I tisn't so much that it attacks shadows
sooner, but rather that there is usually so much more Silver in
highlights that the effect of reduction is not seen as soon. Best to
use two solution Farmer's first, to get some of the dnse areas near to
where you want them, then finish in short repeated immersions in a
weak single solutio, while inspecting the results. Try to stop
reduction before everything gets to the point that it looks right in
the reducing bath, as there are isues with the effect of dry down and
cessation of reducing action after removal from the solution. You can
very easily over-reduce.
Robert Vervoordt, MFA
Some Dude
(post-wash) the remjet, as I now know it, was drippinng to the floor
in a black muck. It also appears to have stained parts of the plastic
film reel (presumably from sitting there 8 hours).
I see parts of the remjet dried on the emulsion side. I had assumed,
perhaps incorrectly that this meant the frame was gone..But no? I'd
love to restore some or all of these to something visible or scannable
with a negative scanner.
Robert thanks for the advice. I will follow your stop-bath advice on
the next roll. I guess I find it weird that the remjet will drip off
the film after a 20m wash yet it won't come off until there's a little
gravity......It needs a little coaxing, no?
Cheers,
-sd
http://www.zoom.sh
Some Dude
believe 1:9
Cheers,
-sd
http://www.zoom.sh
Robert Vervoordt
>This seems to make sense. When I pulled the film out of the tank
>(post-wash) the remjet, as I now know it, was drippinng to the floor
>in a black muck. It also appears to have stained parts of the plastic
>film reel (presumably from sitting there 8 hours).
>
>I see parts of the remjet dried on the emulsion side. I had assumed,
>perhaps incorrectly that this meant the frame was gone..But no? I'd
>love to restore some or all of these to something visible or scannable
>with a negative scanner.
>
>Robert thanks for the advice. I will follow your stop-bath advice on
>the next roll. I guess I find it weird that the remjet will drip off
>the film after a 20m wash yet it won't come off until there's a little
>gravity......It needs a little coaxing, no?
Yes it does.
Thanks for the thanks.
Just keep in mind that the RemJet is only a problem when it is used in
a macine processor or when it isn't removed in the wet stage of hand
processing, before the wash. When it dries, its a real PITA.
Good luck, Dude. I love your various experiments.
Robert Vervoordt, MFA
Some Dude
After feeling that this Remjet was really pissing me off I left an
entire roll of bw processed K14 film in Blank's solution (Farmers?)-
15mg ascorbic acid with 1:9 dilution of fixer (non-hardening). If I
had Dektol handy I would have used that instead but anyway..
I pulled the film out last night and took some lint-free thick lens
wipes and sure enough I was removing the remjet. It was stuck on
there good and took many washes and tugging on the film to get that
crap off the base. The image is visible now through the negative and
I intend to do a contact print tonight.
Thanks Richard, et al..!
p.s. does Hydroquinone have any uses that would allow it to be
purchased in pure form in local stores? Google says its good for the
skin but I'm sure if I go to a store its going to be mixed with
something else to make a cream/whatever.
Finally, does anyone know what pure Vitamin E does to development?
Thanks!
Cheers,
-sd
http://www.zoom.sh
Richard Knoppow
and other areas. It should be available from dealers in
photographic chemicals although there are not many of them.
AFAIK Vitamin E has no photographic use. Also, be
careful of the cult use of Vitamin E, it is toxic in large
doses and some of the less sensible recommendations are for
near toxic doses. Actual research on mega-dose vitamin
intake shows it to be useless.
Robert Vervoordt
Got to be careful, there, Richard. Just about all the research
showing any negative effect from Vitamin E, as well as studies
negating other food components, are done with extracts, components and
synthetic versions of these substances. Most of the time such
gimmickry will not produce a result up to the standards of the whole
substance. Drug companies routinely bury research that doesn't allow
them to find a patentable derivative.
The recent Vitamin E scare was an especially egregious form of
misinformation. The sample was distorted, the results culled from
almost ancient studies and the methodologies were flawed in the same
ways as I mentioned, above; synthetic forms of the Vitamin that had
vastly differing biological effects.
That said, I have to agree that Vitamin E has no use in Photochemistry
for the Darkroom. It might be uswed in emulsion making, though, as I
once heard Agfa was stumped by the failure of a Cashew crop whose oil
was unsuitable for their version of a Magenta layer in one of their
reversal color products.
Go figure.
Robert Vervoordt, MFA
Travis Porco
and white chemistry (including removing or bleaching)?
--travis