My Friend's Dog was Attacked
Sheri Hastings
dear little dog all shaved and stitched up and wearing one of those
white cones around his neck. This is what happened.
My friend has two dogs. A dobie mix named Nipper and a Large terrier
something named Yanchi Bo. (Yanchi bo means 'little brat' in Japanese.)
She was walking them on two separate leashes when a pit bull came out
and attacked Yanchi. My friend dropped both leashes. Nipper came to
the defense of Yanchi who took off as soon as the pit bull let go.
Eventually the fight stopped. Nipper had some little bites, but nothing
serious. Yanchi was no where to be seen. After looking for some time,
Bette (my friend) took Nipper back home. When they got home, Nipper
immediately found Yanchi curled up under a car in what seemed like shock.
(Do dogs go into shock ????) Yanchi is going to be fine but the vet
bill was about $500.00. (Ouch!!!).
Bette would like to find the owner of the pit bull. (It was running loose
and had no coller or anything that indicated it belonged to anyone.) She
contacted the Humane Society and told them what happened. Hopefully, they
will catch the dog and put Bette in contact with its owner.
Bette and I were discussing her epsiode and a couple things came up that
I thought might benefit people here on the net.
1. Bette just happened to be walking Yanchi and Nipper on separate leashes
because should couldn't find the double leash she usually uses. If she
had the double leash, the fight might have lasted longer and Yanchi
might have been hurt more than he was. She vows never to use the double
leash again. I use a double leash, and never thought about something
like this happening. I think I will also use individual leashes from
now on.
2. Even in nice neighborhoods, (Bette lives in a well-to-do suberb of LA
called Brentwood) there are irresponsible dog owners. You would think
that these people would have the means to take better care of their
dogs. Bette was really surprised that someone wouldn't have a collar
or anything on their dog and let it run loose like that. It just shows
that dog abuse knows no economic boundries.
3. The dog has not been caught yet. Bette is afriad to go out with her
dogs now. (I recommended that she carry a big cane -- but she is still
afraid.) Does anyone there have any suggestions on how to help
Bette not be afraid to walk her dog till the pit bull is caught? She
is afraid to walk in a different direction because this happened
right outside her drive way.
4. If the dog is caught and someone claims it, what is the best way for
Bette to bring the subject up with the dog's owner?
Wishing I had a more cheerful story to tell --
-- SherI
Mike Yang
the dog attack. She should also contact the local animal services
division.
I live in Palo Alto, a suburb in the San Francisco Bay area. In
January, a woiman was walking her Maltese when her dog was attacked by
another dog running lose. She notified Animal Services, and the
animal control officer searched for the attacking dog, even going from
house to house in the neighborhood.
Unfortunately, it was believed that my Akita was the one involved in
the attack. He had periodically escaped from my house, and this may
have been one of those times.
Thankfully, the Maltese has recovered, and the dangerous dog hearing
did not find my dog dangerous. But I just wanted to mention this,
because I was very impressed with the city's commitment to the
problem.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
Mike Yang Silicon Graphics, Inc.
mi...@sgi.com 415/335-1786
Steven M. Anastasi
>
... dog attacked by pit-bull resulting in harm to dog and $500 vet bill
...
My first reaction would be to fight off the pit-bull or try to kill it -
is this possible or would I just end up with bites and a $500
doctors bill.
Steve Anastasi
Nancy Hartman
>From article <1991May6.1...@jpl-devvax.jpl.nasa.gov>, by hast...@jpl-devvax.jpl.nasa.gov (Sheri Hastings):
>
>is this possible or would I just end up with bites and a $500
>doctors bill.
This poses an interesting question. What should we do in a situation where
we/our pet is being attacked by a dog? I know that there are specific
ways to grab/kick/whatever, but I don't know what they are.
We do have some "attack dogs" in our neighborhood. (Nice, middle class)
The owners do their best to confine them, but occasionally they will
get loose and kill neighborhood animals, or bite someone. (Yes they
are in the process of being sued. And I have *NO* idea why these
animals are still alive.) These dogs are so incredibly smart, that
they can open almost any door. Actually, one day, around 10 years ago,
their daughter was coming around selling cookies. She came to our
door, and our dachsund ran out barking (not really aggressively, just
like most small house dogs do). Just three feet from our own back door,
our little dachsund was picked up by the neck and shaken by a 150 pound
shepherd. Needless to say, it took poor Henrietta several stitches and
a few months to recover. I was rather young at the time, so I don't
remember if my family took any action against them. But that image
of this dog attacking her is ingrained in my mind forever.
There hasn't been an incident in about a year, but it got pretty bad
for a while. These dogs are known to have killed *several* neighborhood
cats, they killed a little dog up the street *in front of the owners,
on their property* (which is on the *other* side of the neighborhood
from the "beast"'s house, and finally they attacked a small child.
The last incident is the cause of the *big* lawsuit against them. I
think there are several small ones as well.
Oh, I forgot one, their next door neighbors were forced to move, because
they were afraid to walk out of their house! (And one of their children
was wheelchair bound)
Fortunately, these people live on the far side of the neighborhood
from us (about 1/2 a mile), but still, it would be reassuring to know
what to do if they ever decide to come around.
Thanks,
- Nancy
--
Nancy Hartman CIS graduate student
har...@udel.edu U. of Delaware
President and founder, Delaware Valley Ferret Club
Owner of Percy & Bree
Tim Layman
...
>like most small house dogs do). Just three feet from our own back door,
>our little dachsund was picked up by the neck and shaken by a 150 pound
>shepherd. Needless to say, it took poor Henrietta several stitches and
A 150lb shepherd?! One could argue that you could stand a chance
against a 30-40lb dog in a fight but a 150lb shepherd that wants to inflict
harm against you puts you in a deadly spot. You can't fight it, you can't
out run it, your best shot (short of shooting it if you have a gun) is to
try to change its mind :^) Now I've heard having a stare down contest with
an angry dog is a bad idea. By staring it in the eye you are challanging
it. Of course if you get it to look away you have solved your problem and
if you don't, it will probablly attack and rip your head off. (Do you feel
lucky:^)
Anyway this is a good question. What do you do? There must be people
on this net that know doggie psych, right? How do you change a mad dogs mind
about attacking you?
My worst experience is not bad at all. My 30lb American Eskimo was
attacked by a Shar Pei mix that was off leash hiding in the bushes. Tasha
(on leash as always) put up a good fight for about 10 seconds. After that
I was able to divert the attention of the attacking dog to myself. I felt
comfortable having the old staring contest with that thing and I won. It
made a few advances at me but I yelled NO and advanced on it in return.
It never laid a tooth on me. I picked up Tasha and walked away. End of fight.
I've been going the same walk route ever since with no problems. Folks, I
wouldn't recommend this technique on any larger dog that you might feel any
fear towards. This attacking dog couldn't have been more than 30-40lbs. The
funny part of it was after the attacker changed its focus to me, Tasha stood
behind my legs and barked her head off! That's tellin 'em Tash!
Obviously what I did here worked but I still don't know if it was
the right way to go about it and therefore can not reccomend it.
Tim
Stephen Northcutt
probably guilty for launching it :-) we called it dog kun do :-)
I will attempt to summarize from that post fest.
>My first reaction would be to fight off the pit-bull or try to kill it -
>is this possible or would I just end up with bites and a $500
>doctors bill.
>
>Steve Anastasi
>
>This poses an interesting question. What should we do in a situation where
>we/our pet is being attacked by a dog? I know that there are specific
>ways to grab/kick/whatever, but I don't know what they are.
>
>Nancy Hartman
>
You are walking your dog(s) and a mean dog comes up.
Case 0. You get control of your dogs, they all get a bark or two
in and you keep walking. Happens to me a lot!
Case 1. The intruder dog gets mixed up with your dog(s).
You may have to yell, kick, whatever but you can get things
sorted out. Again semi common.
Case 2. The intruder dog(s) really wants to fight (or your dogs
do). It is really hard to interject yourself forcefully.
You may also end up being attacked yourself. Some strategy
follows at the end. Not real likely senario.
Case 3. An attack by multiple real attack dogs. You and "your
little dog too" are proabably toast. IMO sacrifice your pet
and try to get yourself into a house, up a tree, whatever.
Very unlikely senario.
Confronting a mean dog, points gleaned from dog kun do:
Mace probably will not work, the cayene pepper based produts
might.
Command voice, showing no fear may work with some dogs.
Dogs may fall for a feint, wave your left hand around and
grab them with your right....
Continuous fast front kicks have some benefit.
Getting control of the dogs head (easy huh) and flipping him onto
his back and sitting on his chest may be a good plan.
Dogs have very hard heads, hitting, kicking, their heads is not
likely produce desired results. Dogs have somewhat weaker legs
and joints, but it may be rather difficult to take advantage of
this.
There was a lot of discussion about arm sacrifice, let the dog
bite your arm and attack the throat, try to put your arm down
his throat and so forth. Some dogs will have the power to
crush your bones. Given a choice I am firmly in the
front kick and control the head camps.
I am certainly no expert. I have wrestled with dogs a lot, but
they always knew me and we were just "playing". I sometimes
walk two dogs (otterhound and golden ret.), I always use two
leashes. I have experienced case 0 - 2, within the year.
I am very interested to hear what ya'll have to say and hope
this thread does not "turn sour".
===================================================================
** I support the High Performance Computing Act of 1991 (S-272) **
===================================================================
Stephen Northcutt (sno...@relay.nswc.navy.mil) News Admin
Sheri Hastings
I've never been attacked -- but a few dogs have threatened. I usually just
freeze in place. Eventually the dog decides I am not threatening and it leaves
me alone. I don't know if this is the 'proper' procedure -- but it has
always worked for me.
If this happoened while I had my dogs with me , I would probably dopr their leashes and then freeze.
-- Sheri
Michael Mahler
>My first reaction would be to fight off the pit-bull or try to kill it -
>is this possible or would I just end up with bites and a $500
>doctors bill.
That's a pretty common first reaction but probably
not the one thought through the most.
Keep in mind that a sprained ankle cost nearly $400.00
for emergency care these days. You'd be lucky to
have only $500 worth of damage to your body if you got
bitten by a true pitbull.
Michael
--
-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+
What's said above has nothing at all to do with what's
said by the company I work for.
Damon Feldman
>Steve Anastasi
The Monks of New Skete et al claim that a dog will not be affected by
kicking hitting etc if the adrenaline is running. They do recommend
high pressure hoses, cayanne pepper in the eyes etc., but these are
rarely available.
Will Judy (editor of Dog World or something circa 1937)
recommends wrapping your finger in a hankercheif and inserting it up
the dog's rectum.
Grabbing the hind legs of a dog and pulling it off can cause a
lot of torn flesh.
More practically (and I think this is from the Monks as well)
is to keep a loop of nylon cord with you, slip it around the dog's
neck (noose style) and hook the leash onto it. Use this to cut off
the dog's air supply.
Of course you might get bitten anway, but it beats trying to go at the
dog "mano a fido" as it were.
--
Damon Feldman fel...@rex.cs.tulane.edu
Computer Science Dept. Tulane University, New Orleans LA, USA
David L. Pope
> In article <1991May7.2...@mmm.serc.3m.com> us26...@mmm.serc.3m.com (Steven M. Anastasi) writes:
>>From article <1991May6.1...@jpl-devvax.jpl.nasa.gov>, by hast...@jpl-devvax.jpl.nasa.gov (Sheri Hastings):
>>
>>My first reaction would be to fight off the pit-bull or try to kill it -
>>is this possible or would I just end up with bites and a $500
>>doctors bill.
I would personally recommend something in a .22 caliber rifle. The longer
barrel (than a pistol) gives greater accuracy, and the report is
quieter. Ammunition such as 'Fiocci asonic' would be ideal in a
bolt-action, but, as always, be sure of where the round is going to
land, and what it will hit if you miss. If you shoot the offending
varmint in a street intersection, it will look like a traffic accident.
(watch out for ricochet).
Second best would be to soak a can of snuff (chewing tobacco) in a cup
of water for 24 hours, wring it out, saving the liquid, and dehydrate it
down to a tablespoon or so. Freeze this & wrap it in hamburger and
feed it to the dog (resist the temptation to give it to the dog's
owner).
The best defense is a good offense.
Random
Jonathan Spencer
>In article <1991May7.2...@mmm.serc.3m.com> us26...@mmm.serc.3m.com (Steven M. Anastasi) writes:
>>From article <1991May6.1...@jpl-devvax.jpl.nasa.gov>, by hast...@jpl-devvax.jpl.nasa.gov (Sheri Hastings):
>>
>This poses an interesting question. What should we do in a situation where
>we/our pet is being attacked by a dog? I know that there are specific
Try carrying a horse rider's crop. They add about a yard to your reach,
are cheap, and can be *very* effective when brought down across a dog's
face. Especially if they don't see it coming and aren't expecting it.
My wife recently taught a snotty Rottweiler a lesson in tactics. Crops
are also useful for training over enthusiatic or disobedient puppies.
[...]
>door, and our dachsund ran out barking (not really aggressively, just
>like most small house dogs do). Just three feet from our own back door,
A dog that comes out barking will *appear* aggressive, even if it is
just a noisy little windbag. However, statistically, it's the small
house dogs that do the most attacking and biting in this country and
not the monsters you're describing. What's more, quite a few of these
small yappy house dogs would benefit from ...
>our little dachsund was picked up by the neck and shaken by a 150 pound
>shepherd.
...a lesson in doggy manners. Dogs are pack animals and have rules:
one of them is that if you or your pack is attacked you defend it. The
shepherd is just following doggy rules - as was the dachshund.
>Needless to say, it took poor Henrietta several stitches and
>a few months to recover. I was rather young at the time, so I don't
>remember if my family took any action against them. But that image
>of this dog attacking her is ingrained in my mind forever.
It will also be ingrained on hers: did she stop barking at "attacking"
other dogs?
>There hasn't been an incident in about a year, but it got pretty bad
>for a while. These dogs are known to have killed *several* neighborhood
>cats, they killed a little dog up the street *in front of the owners,
>on their property*
The dog won't be aware *whose* property it is: dogs recognise
*territory* which is not the same thing. Furthermore, it's very seldom
that a dog gets kiled. The purpose of a fight is to establish dominance.
This dog probably died as a result of the size difference you imply.
(which is on the *other* side of the neighborhood
>from the "beast"'s house, and finally they attacked a small child.
A totally *unprovoked* attack? Again, statistically, dogs in this
country *very* seldom attack without some obvious provocation. What did
the "attack" consist of? A recent survey here (by The Indy newspaper)
reported that most (I think it claimed 90%) of all schoolchildren had
suffered a dog atack: an atack meant that a dog had growled or barked at
them, not that it had attempted to bite them. The difference is huge.
>The last incident is the cause of the *big* lawsuit against them. I
>think there are several small ones as well.
[...]
>Fortunately, these people live on the far side of the neighborhood
>from us (about 1/2 a mile), but still, it would be reassuring to know
>what to do if they ever decide to come around.
You seem to have little to worry about: "There hasn't been an incident
in about a year" you say.
Sheri Hastings
oops - last message got truncked. If a dog threatened to attack me while
I was walking my dogs, I would probably drop my dogs leashes so they could
get free and then I would freeze until the 'bad' dog lost interest. We
live in a fairly rural area and my dogs tend to run away rather than fight
back.ck. If we lived in an area more heavily traveled by cars or if my dogs
were aggressive -- I don't know what I would do.
My own belief is that dogs attack only when they feel threatened. If you can
somehow remove the threat feeling, then they calm down. Anyone else agree?
-- Sheri
john f andrews ece
Another reason first reactions aren't *always* the best. I'd hate to be the one
trying to put your body parts together afterwards...
I am surprised no one has mentioned the option of carrying MACE on your
belt (where it is legal) while walking the dog. If it works for the USPS,
why not for dog owners? BTW, MACE is legal here in NJ, but I am aware it is
illegal to carry in some places.
BTW, I am the owner of a bloodhound, and have heard many stories of
blood owners traveling with an extra Dobie trained specifically to protect
the hound. The hound is free to drop its nose to the ground and trail away
while the dobie keeps an eye out for potential threats.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
john f andrews SYSOP The Biomedical Engineering BBS
24 hrs 300/1200/2400/4800 (201) 596-5679
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
INTERNET jfa...@hertz.njit.edu CIS 73710,2600
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Barbara Roy
>
>The Monks of New Skete et al claim that a dog will not be affected by
>kicking hitting etc if the adrenaline is running. They do recommend
>high pressure hoses, cayanne pepper in the eyes etc., but these are
>rarely available.
stuff deleted...
> More practically (and I think this is from the Monks as well)
>is to keep a loop of nylon cord with you, slip it around the dog's
>neck (noose style) and hook the leash onto it. Use this to cut off
>the dog's air supply.
>
>Of course you might get bitten anway, but it beats trying to go at the
>dog "mano a fido" as it were.
I can back up the Monks' statement with fact: My Rottweiler bitch recently
attacked a 2 week old foal of mine. NO amount of kicking, yelling, hitting,
biting (yes, biting!), prying at jaws, etc. had ANY effect. Actually, I'm
amazed she didn't bite me! The ONLY way I was able to extricate the badly
mauled foal was to strangle her with some heavy wire that was conveniently
attached to a nearby fence. Only then did the Rott release her grip enough
for the foal to get loose. I had to wire up one of the dog's legs to get her
back into her pen, since she was so "pumped" that she immediately wanted to
attack again when I let her get a breath.
This story has a happy ending, however. The foal survived and recovered
fully - no limping, no scarring! Within a month, he was good as new and
together with his Mom went to a new home. The dog managed to survive my
initial wrath and near-total banishment to her pen. She is no longer allowed
anywhere NEAR the barn/paddocks, but does manage to get some highly supervised
romps still. But if anyone wants a beautiful Rottweiler broodbitch who is
OFA'd and great with people (but death to small animals/livestock), I'm
ready to deal...
Barbara Roy, Weeg Computing Center, University of Iowa, Iowa City, IA. 52242
Meadowacres Arabians
Internet: br...@vaxa.weeg.uiowa.edu Bitnet: broyva@uiamvs
Disclaimer: My opinions are solely my own and may change daily.
Damon Feldman
>Try carrying a horse rider's crop. They add about a yard to your reach,
>are cheap, and can be *very* effective when brought down across a dog's
>face. Especially if they don't see it coming and aren't expecting it.
>My wife recently taught a snotty Rottweiler a lesson in tactics. Crops
>are also useful for training over enthusiatic or disobedient puppies.
Well. Whacking a Rottweiler in the face with a riding crop
might come out OK, but if you aggrivate the dog and it decides to kill
you the riding crop will not be very effective. To tell the truth, if
I heard you talking about hitting over-enthusiastic puppies with a
riding crop, I doubt that the riding crop could even keep me from
wringing your neck.
>A dog that comes out barking will *appear* aggressive, even if it is
True. But you would do well not to bet on that.
Nancy Hartman
>
>Try carrying a horse rider's crop. They add about a yard to your reach,
>are cheap, and can be *very* effective when brought down across a dog's
O.K., folks... It seems that most of the suggestions are to carry
something with you. What about situations like mine (and several others
which have been mentioned here, and in e-mail messages to me) where
the dog is attacking near your house, in non-walk situations, when you
wouldn't have "weapons".
-------------------------------------------------------
O.K., now for my rebuttal to Mr. Spencers biting remarks...
> What's more, quite a few of these
>small yappy house dogs would benefit from ...
Henrietta was far from "yappy". She may have protected us from intruders,
but she did *NOT* bark at air molecules. She was a wonderful dog, please
stop making assumptions. Just because she was a small dog, and protected
us as best she could, did not make her "yappy".
>>remember if my family took any action against them. But that image
>>of this dog attacking her is ingrained in my mind forever.
>It will also be ingrained on hers: did she stop barking at "attacking"
>other dogs?
No, she was a *VERY* devoted dog. She cared more about protecting us
than her own life. She still did her "job", very well.
>The dog won't be aware *whose* property it is: dogs recognise
>*territory* which is not the same thing. Furthermore, it's very seldom
>that a dog gets kiled. The purpose of a fight is to establish dominance.
>This dog probably died as a result of the size difference you imply.
My point was that the dog's had no right to be there to begin with.
*MY* pets should be safe on *MY* property. This is the fault of
the owners, not the dogs. It was also to point out that this
incident happened somewhere where the people weren't expecting anything.
>>from the "beast"'s house, and finally they attacked a small child.
>
>A totally *unprovoked* attack? Again, statistically, dogs in this
YES!!! A TOTALLY UNPROVOKED ATTACK!!!! A grandfather was out walking
his grandchild in a carriage. The dog owners drove up, with the
"beasts" in the back of their pickup truck. The dogs jumped out of
the back, and immediately attacked *THE CHILD* not the adult. Then
the adult tried to protect the child, then they turned on him.
Fortunately, the owners were right there, and stopped the whole
thing before any irreparable damage was done. The only thing anywhere
near provoking about the incident was that they were walking somewhere
near (not on) the beast's property. (Actually, I think they were in
front of the next house down. And we have pretty big lots around here.)
>You seem to have little to worry about: "There hasn't been an incident
>in about a year" you say.
I hope you are right. But this was just an example. I would like to
know what to do if ever a situation arises with *any* dog in the future,
not just these.
Jonathan Spencer
>In article <73...@rex.cs.tulane.edu>, fel...@rex.cs.tulane.edu (Damon Feldman) writes...
>>
[deleted]
>I can back up the Monks' statement with fact: My Rottweiler bitch recently
>attacked a 2 week old foal of mine. NO amount of kicking, yelling, hitting,
>biting (yes, biting!), prying at jaws, etc. had ANY effect. Actually, I'm
>amazed she didn't bite me! The ONLY way I was able to extricate the badly
>mauled foal was to strangle her with some heavy wire that was conveniently
>attached to a nearby fence. Only then did the Rott release her grip enough
>for the foal to get loose. I had to wire up one of the dog's legs to get her
>back into her pen, since she was so "pumped" that she immediately wanted to
>attack again when I let her get a breath.
[...]
>romps still. But if anyone wants a beautiful Rottweiler broodbitch who is
>OFA'd and great with people (but death to small animals/livestock), I'm
>ready to deal...
Wouldn't the responsible course of action be to kill this dog, rather
than pass a problem on to someone else? I speak as someone who has
inherited problem dogs and had to do the dirty deed myself. It's *no*
fun. If you can't control the dog - and you clearly cannot - what makes
you think anyone else should be landed with it? The dog should have
stopped the attack *on command*. The fact she ignored you and continued
the attack shows that you have insufficient control of the dog. Police
dogs are expected to release on command, yours should have done too.
The only difference is that a police dog is 'hunting' a man, not a
horse. No, face up to your responsibilities: if the dog is unfit to
stay with you, she's not fit for anyone else. Take her to the vet
instead of offering her for breeding.
john f andrews ece
>br...@vaxa.weeg.uiowa.edu (Barbara Roy) writes:
>
>>In article <73...@rex.cs.tulane.edu>, fel...@rex.cs.tulane.edu (Damon Feldman) writes...
>>attacked a 2 week old foal of mine. NO amount of kicking, yelling, hitting,
>>biting (yes, biting!), prying at jaws, etc. had ANY effect. Actually, I'm
>
>than pass a problem on to someone else? I speak as someone who has
>stopped the attack *on command*. The fact she ignored you and continued
>the attack shows that you have insufficient control of the dog. Police
>dogs are expected to release on command, yours should have done too.
>horse. No, face up to your responsibilities: if the dog is unfit to
>stay with you, she's not fit for anyone else. Take her to the vet
>instead of offering her for breeding.
So, in other words, if your dog is capable of causing harm and is not trained
as well as a police dog, it should be put to sleep.
Well, I'd say about 75% of the dogs out there, according to your logic,
should be killed.
Terry Hull
>br...@vaxa.weeg.uiowa.edu (Barbara Roy) writes:
>>But if anyone wants a beautiful Rottweiler broodbitch who is
>>OFA'd and great with people (but death to small animals/livestock), I'm
>>ready to deal...
>Wouldn't the responsible course of action be to kill this dog, rather
>than pass a problem on to someone else? I speak as someone who has
>inherited problem dogs and had to do the dirty deed myself. It's *no*
>fun. If you can't control the dog - and you clearly cannot - what makes
>you think anyone else should be landed with it?
The problem is quite well defined and isolated. The dog does not get
along with livestock. Barbera has livestock, so this is certainly a
problem for her. If I were to take the dog, she would probably never
see another foal. Why would this be problem for me?
>The dog should have
>stopped the attack *on command*.
This takes specific training. Normally dogs are not taught to be obedient
when they are supercharged with adrenelin.
>The fact she ignored you and continued
>the attack shows that you have insufficient control of the dog. Police
>dogs are expected to release on command, yours should have done too.
Are you aware of the effort that goes into training a police dog, or a
Schutzhund dog? It takes a lot of work to get a dog to respond to you
when they are pumped up and excited. Not everyone has access to the
expertise that is required to effectively do this kind of training.
Other people do not have the time for this kind of training.
>The only difference is that a police dog is 'hunting' a man, not a
>horse. No, face up to your responsibilities: if the dog is unfit to
>stay with you, she's not fit for anyone else. Take her to the vet
>instead of offering her for breeding.
I disagree very strongly. If someone has a new baby and a dog that is
not good with children and wants to place the dog with a family that
does not have children, I see no problem with that. I also do not see
much difference between a dog that cannot be around children and one
that cannot be around livestock. I do not have enough information to
evaluate this dog for breeding, and I wonder how you can possibly make
that determination from one posting. One incident involving the dog
not breaking off an attack on a foal when commanded does not make the
dog bad-tempered. It probably does mean this dog will never make a
good herding dog though.
--
Terry Hull
Department of Electrical and Computer Engineering, Kansas State University
Work: te...@eece.ksu.edu, rutgers!ksuvax1!eecea!terry
Michael Mahler
>br...@vaxa.weeg.uiowa.edu (Barbara Roy) writes:
>Wouldn't the responsible course of action be to kill this dog, rather
>than pass a problem on to someone else?
No, it wouldn't (IMNSHO).
It's not clear that this dog has a "problem" worth
getting out the blue-juice for.
>I speak as someone who has
>inherited problem dogs and had to do the dirty deed myself. It's *no*
>fun. If you can't control the dog - and you clearly cannot - what makes
>you think anyone else should be landed with it?
WHERE does this incident show that this Rottie is
generalbly "uncontrollable?
>The dog should have stopped the attack *on command*.
It's not clear that this dog has any obedience training or titles
in which case it's iffy whether or not it should have obeyed
any command.
>The fact she ignored you and continued
>the attack shows that you have insufficient control of the dog.
No, it doesn't.
>Police dogs are expected to release on command, yours should have done too.
>The only difference is that a police dog is 'hunting' a man, not a
>horse.
It may be the ONLY difference but it's a MAJOR difference.
Even if it wasn't, why should her dog release on command
because highly trained police dogs do?
>No, face up to your responsibilities: if the dog is unfit to
>stay with you, she's not fit for anyone else. Take her to the vet
>instead of offering her for breeding.
Why are you labelling this dog as unfit because it
attacked a horse?
How about facing up to your lack of knowledge about
the situation and stop blasting someone who's trying
to do the right thing in the first place?
Michael Mahler
>It probably does mean this dog will never make a
>good herding dog though.
And probably LOVES chew hooves.
;-}
Liza Miller
No, a dog that HAS caused harm (and to a completely helpless
animal) should be put to sleep. Being CAPABLE of causing harm is a HUGE
step from actually CAUSING harm. Offering as a brood bitch a dog that has
attacked babies of another species doesn't seem to be a smart idea.
Temperaments are heridtary (while environment certainly affects them as
well) and this couldn't possibly be a trait you'd want to risk passing
along.
*******************************************************************************
Liza Lee Miller 415/326-5309
Cibola Labradors 1669 Woodland Avenue
Field, Show, Fun Palo Alto, CA 94303
Home of
Mistypoint Kashmir, "Kash"
Cibola's Misty Mountain Hop, "Hopper"
******************************************************************************
Michael Mahler
Discharging a firearm within city limits is illegal.
Mike Yang
>than pass a problem on to someone else? I speak as someone who has
>inherited problem dogs and had to do the dirty deed myself. It's *no*
>fun. If you can't control the dog - and you clearly cannot - what makes
>you think anyone else should be landed with it? The dog should have
>stopped the attack *on command*. The fact she ignored you and continued
>the attack shows that you have insufficient control of the dog.
Aren't you being a bit demanding?
Her dog was off-leash at the time. Do you believe that dogs which cannot
be controlled off-leash should be destroyed?
How many dogs do you know can be called off from one of their "natural
tendencies" by command? Certain breeds are known for their more
agressive tendencies, and for good reason. Should these breeds be
eradicated so that the world is populated only by Goldens?
I own an Akita, and have mentioned in a previous article that he
probably attacked a smaller dog after escaping from my house. While I
don't feel that he's under my control when outside and off-leash, I
don't believe that he should be destroyed. When I walk him on a
leash, he's totally under my control.
With any (large) dog, there is the danger of them overpowering their
owner. I'm certain that my dog has the ability to do so. That's why
we take them to obedience classes, etc., to keep them under control.
This control, however, often has its limits.
We need to be responsible dog owners. In my case, my dog should never
be allowed outside when not on a leash because he's not controllable
then. For the Rottweiler, the incident occured on the owner's
property, and as she said, she keeps a much closer watch on him now.
S. Mudgett aka little gator
(Damon Feldman) writes:
> Will Judy (editor of Dog World or something circa 1937)
> recommends wrapping your finger in a hankercheif and inserting it up
> the dog's rectum.
this might work, but sounds too timeconsuming to be useful. first, find and
position the hanky, then find the rectum, which unlike the hanky is
not conveniently staying in one place, then (yecch) inserting...even
if you skip the hanky, the victim could be dead by the time
you've "stopped" the fight.
--
-- little gator aka S. Mudgett email: s...@harvee.uucp
-- friend of a gator is a friend of mine
Barbara Roy
In response to my posting re:my Rottie bitch who attacked my foal:
>
>Wouldn't the responsible course of action be to kill this dog, rather
>than pass a problem on to someone else? I speak as someone who has
>inherited problem dogs and had to do the dirty deed myself. It's *no*
>fun. If you can't control the dog - and you clearly cannot - what makes
>you think anyone else should be landed with it? The dog should have
>stopped the attack *on command*. The fact she ignored you and continued
>the attack shows that you have insufficient control of the dog. Police
>dogs are expected to release on command, yours should have done too.
>The only difference is that a police dog is 'hunting' a man, not a
>horse. No, face up to your responsibilities: if the dog is unfit to
>stay with you, she's not fit for anyone else. Take her to the vet
>instead of offering her for breeding.
This dog is NOT a problem dog by my definition. Most people even here in
rural Iowa do not own horses or other livestock and MANY dogs don't like cats.
If every dog who would chase/kill cats if given the opportunity were put to
death, very few specimens would be around now. Since this dog is NOT attack
trained, there is no reason why she should have known to "release on command".
Police dogs get considerable training before they understand this - as anyone
who has observed such training would know. The instinct is to continue the
attack. The fact that this dog didn't bite me under the circumstances
says more about this dog than the fact that she attacked my foal. Anyone who
has tried to break up a dog fight knows what I'm talking about. Even the most
loving pet can bite you when the adrenaline in pumping that hard.
As for not being "fit for anyone else", although she is a bit of a bull in a
china shop, she is completely trustworthy with people. My two year old
daughter managed to sneak past me one day and got into the whelping box with
the bitch and her 2 day old puppies. I found her in there cudding the puppies
with Momma looking on. Since Momma won't even let me near her puppies the first
few days without a warning growl, I was impressed to say the least. A Rottie
with a good temperament, OFA hips, and excellent conformation doesn't come
along every day. She made one mistake (albeit a BIG one), but deserves a home
where she can be appreciated and not be constantly exposed to the temptations
my farm affords.
Jonathan Spencer
>In article <1991May9.0...@newcastle.ac.uk> J.M.S...@newcastle.ac.uk (Jonathan Spencer) writes:
>>br...@vaxa.weeg.uiowa.edu (Barbara Roy) writes:
>>>In article <73...@rex.cs.tulane.edu>, fel...@rex.cs.tulane.edu (Damon Feldman) writes...
>>>...I can back up the Monks' statement with fact: My Rottweiler bitch recently
>>>attacked a 2 week old foal of mine. NO amount of kicking, yelling, hitting,
>>>biting (yes, biting!), prying at jaws, etc. had ANY effect. Actually, I'm
>>
>>Wouldn't the responsible course of action be to kill this dog, rather
>>than pass a problem on to someone else? I speak as someone who has
Here's a dog which attacked something that was behaving like prey, it
happened to be a foal, and was - only just - prised off it. All bar one
followup postings disagree that the dog should be killed. What if,
instead of a foal, the prey had been a child which "NO amount of
kicking, yelling, hitting, biting (yes, biting!), prying at jaws, etc.
had ANY effect"? Would the responsible course of action be to offer
this bitch for breeding? Certainly not. The dog would almost certainly
be destroyed without hesitation.
I'm not, by any means, suggesting that all dogs should be trained to
police dog standards - and I *do* know what's involved, I spent ten
years serving on Royal Air Police Dog Sections - but that this dog has
demonstrated that it is a) naturally agressive towards prey (for which
it cannot be blamed) and b) it cannot be controlled (by its present
handler) once it has decided to launch an attack. It cannot be right,
therefore, to offer a dog such as this for sale to someone who, in all
probability, is no more likely able to control the dog than its present
owner. A specialist probably could instill firm discipline on the bitch
but, as most followups have argued, few people possess the skills nor
time. The *safest* course of action is to kill the dog, not hand the
problem on to someone else.
I do not wish this to degenerate into a flame war. The thread did
concern dogs that exhibited unacceptable behaviour (i.e. attacking
others) and how to deal with the problem. Unless there are any *orginal*
contributions concerning the Rottie bitch, I intend to conclude the
subject with this post.
Kyler Laird
> Discharging a firearm within city limits is illegal.
Wow! What a broad statement! How about defining which cities, which people,
what purpose...
...or can we charge all the city cops who have discharged their weapons on duty?
...and what about the skeet clubs in so many towns?
...and what about all those city dwellers that protect themselves with firearms
every month?
...and the ROTC members at Purdue?
Where did you get this tidbit (/trash)? Care to tell me about "cop-killer"
bullets and plastic guns?
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Kyler Laird I'm the NRA/NRA-ILA lai...@mentor.purdue.edu
Laura Toms
>In article <34...@mimsy.umd.edu> m...@lectroid.sw.stratus.com (Michael Mahler) writes:
>> Discharging a firearm within city limits is illegal.
>
>Wow! What a broad statement! How about defining which cities, which people,
>what purpose...
>
>...or can we charge all the city cops who have discharged their weapons on duty?
>...and what about the skeet clubs in so many towns?
>...and what about all those city dwellers that protect themselves with firearms
>every month?
>...and the ROTC members at Purdue?
>
>Where did you get this tidbit (/trash)? Care to tell me about "cop-killer"
>bullets and plastic guns?
>
I'll admit I wasn't following this discussion, but let me ask ignorantly,
what inspired this venomous attack? The statement you quoted seems
pretty innocuous (and accurate) to me. I didn't see any cause for this
belligerent defensiveness. Or did I miss something important?
Just curious as to why such a simple statement was the cause for a nasty
round of flames.
--
============================================================================
= Laura Toms and Moraine Labradors Dublin, Ohio =
= la...@MorningStar.com (614) 766-6287 =
============================================================================
Kathy Moser
>> dogs now. (I recommended that she carry a big cane -- but she is still
>> afraid.) Does anyone there have any suggestions on how to help
>> Bette not be afraid to walk her dog till the pit bull is caught?
Why doesn't she try carrying mace or a similar product designed to ward off
an attacker? Mailmen and others who have to go into people's yards do this
to protect themselves. Plus you don't need physical strength to spray some-
thing at a dog.
Kathy Moser
Kyler Laird
tried to direct responses to t.p.g. I'm not truncating this article as a
service to those in t.p.g. who may wish to see the entire thread.
Yes, it may seem like I'm being petty, but if you think the original statement
was innocuous and accurate I feel I'm just in responding. I did not intend
to be nasty.
I thought I brought up some obvious examples that run contrary to the
statement. If you don't agree, we need to investigate this further.
The reason I pointed all this out is that I've seen too many people make
decisions/opinions concerning guns/gun laws based on misinformation. When
false statements about guns are made, many people don't know enough to
question them. Instead, they take them as truth and move quietly along.
HCI and friends use this to get support on issues such as "cop killer" bullets
and undetectable plastic guns. (Ask anyone in t.p.g. for more info on these.
I'm sure they'd love to give it to you, and I think you'd appreciate the
enlightenment.)
Again, the original posting may have been made out of innocent ignorance. My
passionate response was due more to my experience than that post.
BTW, locally you may be close to correct. I think I recall that Ohio revoked
the gun rights of its citizenry.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Kyler Laird I'm the NRA/NRA-ILA lai...@mentor.purdue.edu
P.O. Box 4742
Lafayette, IN 47903 (317) 463-3447 (answering machine)
*Purdue prefers to keep its CS students on their toes. We get new accounts
each year. Our old accounts are killed off at the end of the spring semester.
This account dies Monday. Please carry on in t.p.g without me. I have faith
in the knowledge of many who reside there.
Michael Mahler
>In article m...@lectroid.sw.stratus.com (Michael Mahler) writes:
>> Discharging a firearm within city limits is illegal.
>Wow! What a broad statement! How about defining which cities, which people,
>what purpose...
>or can we charge all the city cops who have discharged their weapons on duty?
>and what about the skeet clubs in so many towns?
>and what about all those city dwellers that protect themselves with firearms
>every month?
>and the ROTC members at Purdue?
>Where did you get this tidbit (/trash)? Care to tell me about "cop-killer"
>bullets and plastic guns?
Here's the background information that my post was in reply
to (sorry for not including it in my previous posting):
Article 4017 of rec.pets.dogs:
Path: lectroid!transfer!samsung!cs.utexas.edu!uwm.edu!linac!att!cbnewse!random
From: ran...@cbnewse.att.com (David L. Pope)
Newsgroups: rec.pets.dogs
Subject: Re: defense against dog attacks???
Message-ID: <1991May9.0...@cbnewse.att.com>
Date: 9 May 91 00:14:55 GMT
References: <52...@nigel.ee.udel.edu>
Organization: AT&T Bell Laboratories
Lines: 25
From article <52...@nigel.ee.udel.edu>, by har...@udel.edu (Nancy Hartman):
> In article <1991May7.2...@mmm.serc.3m.com> us26...@mmm.serc.3m.com (Steven M. Anastasi) writes:
>>From article <1991May6.1...@jpl-devvax.jpl.nasa.gov>, by hast...@jpl-devvax.jpl.nasa.gov (Sheri Hastings):
>>
>>My first reaction would be to fight off the pit-bull or try to kill it -
>>is this possible or would I just end up with bites and a $500
>>doctors bill.
I would personally recommend something in a .22 caliber rifle. The longer
barrel (than a pistol) gives greater accuracy, and the report is
quieter. Ammunition such as 'Fiocci asonic' would be ideal in a
bolt-action, but, as always, be sure of where the round is going to
land, and what it will hit if you miss. If you shoot the offending
varmint in a street intersection, it will look like a traffic accident.
(watch out for ricochet).
Second best would be to soak a can of snuff (chewing tobacco) in a cup
of water for 24 hours, wring it out, saving the liquid, and dehydrate it
down to a tablespoon or so. Freeze this & wrap it in hamburger and
feed it to the dog (resist the temptation to give it to the dog's
owner).
The best defense is a good offense.
Random
-+-+-+ -+-+-+ -+-+-+ -+-+-+ -+-+-+ -+-+-+ -+-+-+ -+-+-+ -+-+-+
Oh, and by the way....
Lighten up Francis!
--
john f andrews ece
Hmmm... let's see. The neighbor's cat (I would never own one) comes into
my yard and stalks a bird. Cool, calculated, ruthless. Tears it into pieces, and
drags the largest piece home to his porch. Better yet, make it a *baby* bird.
Now, as "responsible citizens", we should kill this cat, no?
------------
No flame, just continued logical analysis of an unsettled issue.
Steven M. Anastasi
This asks an interesting question. Is mace effective at fending off an
attacking dog (on you or your dog)? If so, it seems like a good thing
to have in your dog-walking pack.
Steve
Sullivan
|>
|> Hmmm... let's see. The neighbor's cat (I would never own one) comes into
|> my yard and stalks a bird. Cool, calculated, ruthless. Tears it into pieces, and
|> drags the largest piece home to his porch. Better yet, make it a *baby* bird.
|>
|> Now, as "responsible citizens", we should kill this cat, no?
Of course not. Your analogy misses the point completely.
A dog that attacks other pets or people is a mennace. A
cat that attacks birds is not a mennace (except to the
poor bird population). When cats start attacking other
pets or people, then you have an analogy.
No one blames the dogs for the attacks. It's the owners
who are the problem. The dogs that are destroyed are
killed to remove the mennace they pose.
|> No flame, just continued logical analysis of an unsettled issue.
No flame, just pointing out the lack of a logical analogy
in the post.
Jim Sullivan
sull...@alw.nih.gov
Michael Mahler
!In article sull...@alw.nih.gov (Sullivan) writes:
!!In article jfa...@hertz.njit.edu (john f andrews ece) writes:
!! Now, as "responsible citizens", we should kill this cat, no?
! Of course not. Your analogy misses the point completely.
! A dog that attacks other pets or people is a mennace. A
! cat that attacks birds is not a mennace (except to the
! poor bird population). When cats start attacking other
! pets or people, then you have an analogy.
I have pet birds. If a cat attacked and killed them,
I'd consider that car a mennace (actually it's owner).
! No one blames the dogs for the attacks. It's the owners
! who are the problem. The dogs that are destroyed are
! killed to remove the mennace they pose.
If the owner is the problem, how can killing the dog
solve the situation? Won't he/she get another?
!|! No flame, just continued logical analysis of an unsettled issue.
! No flame, just pointing out the lack of a logical analogy
! in the post.
Ditto.
Sullivan
|>
|> !In article sull...@alw.nih.gov (Sullivan) writes:
|> !!In article jfa...@hertz.njit.edu (john f andrews ece) writes:
|> !! Now, as "responsible citizens", we should kill this cat, no?
|>
|> ! Of course not. Your analogy misses the point completely.
|> ! A dog that attacks other pets or people is a mennace. A
|> ! cat that attacks birds is not a mennace (except to the
|> ! poor bird population). When cats start attacking other
|> ! pets or people, then you have an analogy.
|>
|> I have pet birds. If a cat attacked and killed them,
|> I'd consider that car a mennace (actually it's owner).
If a cat was attacking pet birds outside, then, yes, the cat is
a mennace. My pet bird is inside in a cage. If someone's cat was
comming over and getting in my house and attacking my bird, then
it would be a mennace and I would insist that they remove the mennace
by keeping it inside all the time, declawing it, killing it,
whatever it takes to remove the mennace.
|>
|> ! No one blames the dogs for the attacks. It's the owners
|> ! who are the problem. The dogs that are destroyed are
|> ! killed to remove the mennace they pose.
|>
|> If the owner is the problem, how can killing the dog
|> solve the situation? Won't he/she get another?
He/she might just get another, but that is a seperate issue. I
think it would be great to restrict owners proven to raise
dangerous animals to outlaw them from owning more animals.
But, at the time a dog exists and is mennacing the neighborhood,
you should think about removing the mennace from the neighborhood.
The disposition of the owner is secondary. It's too bad that once
a dog is proved to be a mennace to people or other's pets that to
remove the mennace usually means destroying the dog. I'd like to
see stiffer penalties against owners who's dogs mennace others.
|>
|> !|! No flame, just continued logical analysis of an unsettled issue.
|>
|> ! No flame, just pointing out the lack of a logical analogy
|> ! in the post.
|>
|> Ditto.
Ditto Ditto...
Jim Sullivan
sull...@alw.nih.gov
Mike Morris
Mace is a trade name for a specific manufacturers product - there are
similar products by others.
With that nit-pick out of the way, I'd like to report that a friend used
a mace-like product on a Dobie, and it did no good at all - in fact it
just got the Dobie madder. Fortunately a good samaritan citizen was
able to grab the dobie's collar and put a 180 degree twist in it and
choke the Dobie into submission. While this was happening, the good
samaritan yelled to my friend to scram! She grabbed her puppy and split
for her car. The Dobie, after the gentleman allowed it to get it's
breath, slunk away.
Postmen use a pepper extract in a spray can - packaged similar to
mace-style products. I've been told that it is not available to the
public, but I've seen it in Walter-Drake style catalogs that my wife
receives. Brookstone also carries it, I think.
Recently I've seen electronic devices that are supposed to repel dogs.
A build-it project was on the cover of a experimenter magazine in teh
last three months - check your local library. I remember seeing a price
for a completely assembled and tested version. It is essentially a
directional super-loud ultrasonic howler.
I'd just like to figure out how to "calm-down" my wife's chiuawa
(sp?)-terrier mix. She has a hair-trigger LOUD bark. The
poodle-terrier mix (which is asleep in my lap as I type this) and the
collie will wait until somebody is on the property before they alert -
micro-mutt will bark at someone riding a bicycle down the street.
grabbed her long skirt, her new puppy and
--
Mike Morris WA6ILQ | This space intentionally left blank.
PO Box 1130 | Standard Disclaimer applies.
Arcadia, CA. 91077 | This space for rent.
818-447-7052 |
Deborah J. Cooper
>
>>In article <73...@rex.cs.tulane.edu>, fel...@rex.cs.tulane.edu (Damon Feldman) writes...
>>>
>[deleted]
>
>Wouldn't the responsible course of action be to kill this dog, rather
>than pass a problem on to someone else? I speak as someone who has
>inherited problem dogs and had to do the dirty deed myself. It's *no*
>fun. If you can't control the dog - and you clearly cannot - what makes
>you think anyone else should be landed with it? The dog should have
>stopped the attack *on command*. The fact she ignored you and continued
>the attack shows that you have insufficient control of the dog. Police
>dogs are expected to release on command, yours should have done too.
>The only difference is that a police dog is 'hunting' a man, not a
>horse. No, face up to your responsibilities: if the dog is unfit to
>stay with you, she's not fit for anyone else. Take her to the vet
>instead of offering her for breeding.
Jonathan: I didn't see that this person was offerring this dog for
breeding, just indicating that he'd offer it to a different home.
IMO, this person is trying to afford this animal every chance it
deserves for a good life, it is quite possible that in a different
environment, with a skilled dog behaviorist, this dog's behavior could
be modified. If not, maybe it is time to put the dog down, but those
of us who really love our animals like to afford every opportunity
possible for a good quality of life, and not end the dog's life
prematurely. Give the poor owner a break, they've been through
enough!
--
|--------------------------------------------------------------------------|
| Deb Cooper de...@midway.uchicago.edu |
| and Flyers and Sophie the Wonder Wrinkles d-co...@uchicago.edu |
|--------------------------------------------------------------------------|
Deborah J. Cooper
Barbara:
I feel that you need a bit of support here so I'm gonna do it
publicly. As you'll see from my response to Mr. Spencer, I think you
are taking the humane, responsible approach. I wish you luck in
finding your Rottie a new home, I know it'll be difficult to loose
her. You should know in your heart that you've done the right thing
in affording her a good life, with minimal temptations.
Lots of luck.
Deborah J. Cooper
Ditto!!!! You're absolutely right (again), Laura!